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Believe it or not, the subject of tort reform goes far beyond the shores of the States, so I thought that I should start a new page in its own right. The interesting feature is how the debates have diverged, and I would welcome contributions to help write this properly. I've tried to identify the salient features of the debate, and then I've left some sections below to be filled with what different countries have actually proposed, or what the nature of contention is in those jurisdictions. It's a fascinating topic. Please bear with me to fill up the notes section - all assertions I've made are accurate, and I'll get round to showing it with references when I can. I thought it was just important to have something there rather than nothing at all. If there are any corrections, please go ahead. I'd be glad to have some knowledgeable people to work with! Wik idea 02:13, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I should add, because of the nature of the subject, I think the page has necessarily to be written in a discussive form. In other words, we're dealing with arguments against and for reform, and between arguments for one kind of reform against another kind. It's important therefore to balance the script with what is said on one side against what's said on another. If parts sound like they're from any particular POV, that was not at all my intention! I'm happy for suggestions and to rewrite whatever's felt to be unbalanced. Wik idea 02:19, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Is the picture for this article a joke? It seems pretty ridiculous, if you ask me. ~ Dancemotron ( talk) 04:22, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone have access or a reference for a comparison of international medical negligence numbers? The real problem with things like this is (a) negligence can be covered up in systems which are not transparent (b) the negligence numbers depend on what the jurisdiction's view on causation is (c) central authorities undoubtedly do not want people to release the figures - those who publish figures will usually want to show a system needs reform (in either direction). Wik idea 12:07, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Superscript text
I have made some fairly extensive edits to try to balance the viewpoints on the page. I should introduce myself by saying I am an American law grad who has studied tort reform extensively, including a seminar at Magdalen College, Oxford.
The main edits are as follows:
1- I have eliminated or added counterbalancing viewpoints to offset viewpoints that essentially boil down to "juries are worse than judges".
2- I have eliminated references to a high rate of punitive damage awards in the U.S. In reality, punitive damages are awarded in fewer than 5% of verdicts in tort claims, and fewer than 2% of tort claims result in a verdict in the first place, so you can do the math. The bottom line is that, except in cases of particularly egregious conduct [i.e., intentional assault, egregious drunk driving, rape, etc.], punitive damage awards are a non-factor in settlement negotiations and are not even requested in pleadings as to do so would be frivolous. Typically punitive damage awards are a small multiple (1-3 times) the ordinary damages awarded, although there has been an increase in very large verdicts (which are nearly always reduced by teh court anyway).
3- Article said that the contingency system encourages plaintiff's lawyers to take borderline cases. Nothing could be further from the truth. A plaintiff's lawyer who is on contingency is motivated to select cases with a high likelihood of success, otherwise the attorney doesn't get paid. If the work is hourly, the attorney could care less what happens, because they will get paid either way. The person who is incentivized to pursue a crappy case is the plaintiff, who doesn't have to put any cash outlay into the lawsuit [other than the court costs, which can be substantial], but the plaintiff doesn't know the difference between a good and bad case anyway and mostly relies on the lawyer to guide them, hence, contingency encourages only solid lawsuits, not weak ones.
4- I have clarified where the discussion is really refering to UK tort law. So far there are no allegations of a compensation culture in the US, at least not in the mainstream dialogue on tort reform. We might have a similar concept, but here people refer to it as "personal responsibility". 24.219.30.152 ( talk) 01:16, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
The fist paragraph makes an unsubstantiated claim. "there has been a general increase in compensatory awards over time." That statement is completely baseless without reference to legitimate studies which have concluded such. Moreover, the lack of studies suggesting there has been an increase in compensatory awards is an issue that is central to a fundamental understanding of tort reform. Making such an assertion without reference to objective and verifiable studies concluding the same frame this issue in a bias and distorted way which make it intellectually dishonest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.8.63.99 ( talk) 04:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
...is that Gilbert and Sullivan image REALLY an appropriate image for a "Trial by jury" ? 68.39.174.238 ( talk) 19:06, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
This article needs complete rewriting. It's a single editor's personal essay and opinions about tort reform, and not a discussion of the issue. THF ( talk) 03:56, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
It's also wildly inaccurate in places. The Supreme Court's denial of cert in Philip Morris USA v. Boeken (which is spelled wrong in the article) had nothing to do with punitive damages; the appeal was over FTC preemption. THF ( talk) 04:00, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
The article clearly needs improvement. It cites exactly one reference. The origin of "tort reform" as a campaign issue that benefits businesses and insurance companies is completely absent. See for example The Nation or The Cambridge History of Law in America. Questionic 23:13, 13 January 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Questionic ( talk • contribs)
Looking at this article's other "references" now. First external link to a joke newspaper article about the most frivolous lawsuit contest. [1] Second, LA Times page not found. [2]. Third to Rand Institute graphic from 1991; the graphic does not support the sentence it's attached to. [3] Fourth to undated graphic based on Insurance Information Institute data. [4] Fifth to page of assertions on ATRA website. [5] If the rest of the several dozen "references" come up to this standard, I would say this article has a very serious POV problem. Questionic 17:43, 14 January 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Questionic ( talk • contribs)
The Daniel Fisher quote is inaccurate. Several tort reforms, such as loser pays, make it easier for individuals with good claims to sue businesses. It was criticized at the time. THF ( talk) 23:41, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
By the way, I still object to the Fisher definition in the lead as inaccurate. Last time the solution was to quote Frank as counterbalance, which wasn't my intended consequence; I'd prefer a neutral definition in the lead. THF ( talk) 18:04, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Could you take a look at what I tried to do and see if it meets the wishes of both sides? If somebody wants to tell me which tort reforms "make it easier for individuals with legitimate claims to sue businesses," that information could be added also. Questionic ( talk) 13:35, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
The paragraph on gourley v obgyn needs to be rewritten. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1702:3C30:623F:BDFB:2DCF:A534:A825 ( talk) 01:21, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
The high cost of medical malpractice insurance is a common talking point for "tort reform." But according to one recent paper [6]: "The recent focus by the American Medical Association and physicians about the dramatic increases in medical malpractice insurance premiums, and their suggestion of a cap on non-economic damages, deserves a closer look. According to Baicker and Chandra (2004), increases in premiums are not affected by past or present malpractice payments, but may increase due to other unrelated factors. Chandra, Nundy, and Seabury (2005) find that the rising cost of medical services may explain the bulk of the growth of “compensatory awards”. They also find that the greatest ten percent of the malpractice payments have grown at a smaller pace than the average payment for the years 1991 and 2003. This means that the “medical malpractice crisis” is not necessarily fueled by the growth in malpractice payments. Furthermore, malpractice pressure actually forces our hospitals to be technically more efficient. This implies that existence of the medical malpractice system is beneficial, and its strength should not be diluted by either putting caps on non-economic damages or by decreasing the statute of limitations." See also article in Slate "The Medical Malpractice Myth" [7]. Questionic 22:11, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
The claims made in 1990 by Professor Mackay (not Mackey) about product innovation do not belong in a section on product safety. Furthermore his "it must follow that..." argument is a clear case of the logical fallacy Post hoc ergo propter hoc. It would make equivalent sense to say "It must follow that the product liability doctrine has caused US manufacturers to live near Detroit, make gas-guzzling SUVs, and seek federal bailouts." Also, I don't see any verifiable source given for Mackay's quote or for John D Graham's either. Is there such a source that others could refer to? Please let's keep the debate strictly to Wikipedia policy and trying to find good, cited sources for all points of view advanced. I consider this article too heavy on ATRA POV as it stands, but I hope our common goal is to present both sides fairly. Questionic 01:36, 15 January 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Questionic ( talk • contribs)
The external link for increased number of lawyers goes to a Newsbatch graph, which gives its source as this government document on medical malpractice. The data behind the bar graph appears in Table 1, giving the number of lawyers per 100,000 population in 1980 as 230 (with a standard deviation of 61) and in 2003 as 347 (with a standard deviation of 135). These are huge error bars, which appear nowhere on the Newsbatch graph. In fact, The fraction of lawyers in 1980 is well within a standard deviation of the fraction of lawyers in 2003. Elsewhere, maybe same report, someone notes that the demand for divorce and criminal lawyers accounts for most of the growth since 1980.
As for the rest of this section, which consists largely of allegations about predatory behavior by lawyers, where are the facts or numbers backing this up? If this stays in the article, we should for balance include a section alleging predatory behavior by insurance companies based on the known bad actions of a few. Questionic 11:52, 15 January 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Questionic ( talk • contribs)
This section needs balance and better sources.
It contains only two "references", both to graphics based on data provided by strong advocates of "tort reform". Aside from the suspect sourcing, neither graph gives good support to the sentence it was attached to.
"Even when non-economic "pain and suffering" awards are included, it has been estimated that only 46 percent of the total cost of the tort system ultimately ends up in claimants' pockets. [8]" Aside from its other flaws, the 1991 graph linked to here has nothing to do with that statement or with the number 46%.
"Tort reform advocates also contend that the system is not even-handed because the amount of per capita tort costs varies significantly from state to state. [9]" Surely it would be relevant to know how and when "per capita tort costs" were "measured" by the Insurance Information Institute, but the graph provides no such information.
To my mind, this section should be the heart of the case for tort reform rather than a few lame, sawed-off talking points. It should advance a clear, well-supported case that our current tort system does a worse job compensating victims than could be accomplished if the reforms they seek were in place. If lawyers (and insurance companies) offered their services without charging anything, that would obviously leave more money to compensate victims, but that is not what tort reformers propose.
The section should also present the opposing case: that "tort reform" would impose a net cost on the victims of injury and/or on society as a whole. I will be editing this section to try to make it look more like what I think it should be; I hope others with value to add will jump in and add it.
In my opinion, compensating victims is one important goal of tort law; another is punishing/deterring behavior that injures others. Questionic ( talk) 18:23, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
OK, I took a whack at improving that section. I also looked at more references that might have useful info for some other sections: "What are the Costs of Litigation?" (1995) Than N. Luu and "Medical Liability: Balancing Access to Health Care, Patient Safety and Compensation" by Brenda Fitzgerald (February 11, 2005). Strangely, the Fitzgerald article cites the Luu article as her source for the following statement: "For those who sue and win, only 42 percent of the money awarded in medical tort cases ever reaches the patients or their families: 33 percent goes to lawyers and 25 percent goes to administrative costs." I cannot find anything remotely like this statement in the copy of the Luu article that's online. Mysterious, and of course those (1995?) numbers would be quite out-of-date by now anyway. Questionic ( talk) 01:46, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Klick/Stratmann (2005) found non-economic damages caps improved infant mortality rates. THF ( talk) 01:49, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
For white infant mortality, we do not find a beneficial effect of the increased access to physicians occasioned by the passage of non-economic damage caps. We do find however that joint and several liability reform worsens the white infant mortality rate and the effect is statistically significant (p = 0.00). Joint and several liability reform is associated with an increase of 14 deaths per 100,000 live white births, a 3 percent relative effect. The effect loses statistical significance when we include state-specific trends.
We present the same specifications for black infant mortality rates. Among blacks, we do not find any statistically significant effect of joint and several liability reform. We do, however, find statistically significant effects of non-economic damage caps, collateral source reform, and restrictions on contingency fees, though only the collateral source effect is robust to all specifications.
In the specifications that do not include state-specific trends, we find that non-economic damage caps reduce black infant mortality by 55 deaths per 100,000 live black births, a relative effect of nearly 6 percent. When state-specific trends are included, the effect is no longer statistically significant.
Collateral source reform leads to statistically significant increases in black infant mortality in all specifications. The estimated effect suggests an increase of 44 deaths per 100,000 live black births, a relative effect of 5 percent when state-specific trends are not included and 73 additional deaths per 100,000 live black births (an 8 percent increase) when we control for state-specific trends.
Restrictions on contingency fees are associated with a decline of 69 deaths per 100,000 live black births, a 7 percent decrease, when state-specific trends are not included. This effect disappears when we control for state-specific trends.
The only effect that is consistent across specifications then is a negative effect of collateral source reform within the black community.
A couple more cites:
THF ( talk) 03:40, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#Tort reform and User:THF.
Talk pages are not the place for user disputes. See WP:TALK. I've linked there to avoid WP:MULTI. Cool Hand Luke 21:25, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Incidentally, Wikidea, the person who's complaining about lack of collaborative editing, just deleted several weeks of work and several thousand bytes of edits added by three editors who had nothing to do with me. THF ( talk) 01:15, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Wikidea's description of class actions and the problems relating to them is entirely fictional original research, and one-sided at that. Can someone please add the {totallydisputed} and {originalresearch} tags? THF ( talk) 01:09, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
And if someone is interested in including points of view other than Wikidea's original research, material can be found at:
- THF ( talk) 01:15, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Lastly, I'd just like to note that we are still unaware as to what exactly Ted finds objectionable about the class action paragraph. Yes, it does not appear to be brilliant, but frankly, it's better than nothing, and that is what we're getting about what to do from Ted. Wik idea 02:00, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
What I find objectionable about this section is that it is completely factually inaccurate unreferenced original research, and violates NPOV. This is why I request {totallydisputed} and {originalresearch} tags. Since Wikidea does not acknowledge that he has completely misunderstood class action law, we need an {expert} tag, too.
That's just off the top of my head; I might think of more if I gave it thought. In short, this section is Wikidea's personal opinions about class actions, and has nothing to do with tort reform or the tort reform debate over class actions.
(I'm ignoring the repeated WP:NPA violation. The idea that I have a conflict of interest with the Wall Street Journal because I've written four or five op-eds for them is pretty humorous; they're the only major newspaper that writes about tort reform, so of course I'm going to have written for them and cite them.) THF ( talk) 02:44, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Here's a short piece discussing some of the issues in 5, 6, 7, and 12. Apologies in advance for the identity of the author, but one can follow the footnotes to other secondary sources that discuss the same thing for less objectionable authors. THF ( talk) 23:06, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Dubious statement:
Wik idea 10:28, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
why is "Tort reform refers to proposed changes in the civil justice system that would reduce tort litigation or damages." preferrable to something like "Tort reform refers to proposed changes in the civil justice system that would mainly serve to reduce the ability of people to sue for damages caused by companies". Cinnamon colbert ( talk) 13:32, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
I would argue that the phrase "tort reform" is, in and of itself, not NPOV, as, in common english usage, the word "reform" implies improving or fixing something broken; that is "tort reform" is a loaded phrase. I would argue that the title and intro should be something like (this isn't right, but it is going in the right direction): title: Proposed changes to the US system of civil litigation. In the US, private parties, such as individuals or companies, who has been harmed or injured by the action of another private party, can sue to recover money as compensation for the damage. A loose coalition, mainly identified with the Republican party and large business, maintains that such suits are often unjustified, and that the monetary awards are so large, and the fear of such awards is so great, that businesss and other institutions are harmed. This coalition has proposed cahnges to the civil justice system termed "tort reform'; as implied by the word "reform" the coalition feels that the current system is broken and need to be fixed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cinnamon colbert ( talk • contribs) 14:35, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
The artcle mentions that Tort Reform was a centerpiece of George W. Bush's 2004 run for office, but does not give any account of the Tort Reform that passed or did not pass under his administration.
It would be nice to have a list of any major attempts in the US for Tort Reform legislation on the national level. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.24.167.52 ( talk) 17:53, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
First, I think a more NPOV title would be "Themes of the "tort reform" debate." Second, I am puzzled to see the obscure and rarely discussed reform "special malpractice courts" at the head of this list of general themes. I will try to re-organize these in some order that reflects their relative importance. Questionic ( talk) 18:15, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
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Believe it or not, the subject of tort reform goes far beyond the shores of the States, so I thought that I should start a new page in its own right. The interesting feature is how the debates have diverged, and I would welcome contributions to help write this properly. I've tried to identify the salient features of the debate, and then I've left some sections below to be filled with what different countries have actually proposed, or what the nature of contention is in those jurisdictions. It's a fascinating topic. Please bear with me to fill up the notes section - all assertions I've made are accurate, and I'll get round to showing it with references when I can. I thought it was just important to have something there rather than nothing at all. If there are any corrections, please go ahead. I'd be glad to have some knowledgeable people to work with! Wik idea 02:13, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I should add, because of the nature of the subject, I think the page has necessarily to be written in a discussive form. In other words, we're dealing with arguments against and for reform, and between arguments for one kind of reform against another kind. It's important therefore to balance the script with what is said on one side against what's said on another. If parts sound like they're from any particular POV, that was not at all my intention! I'm happy for suggestions and to rewrite whatever's felt to be unbalanced. Wik idea 02:19, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Is the picture for this article a joke? It seems pretty ridiculous, if you ask me. ~ Dancemotron ( talk) 04:22, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone have access or a reference for a comparison of international medical negligence numbers? The real problem with things like this is (a) negligence can be covered up in systems which are not transparent (b) the negligence numbers depend on what the jurisdiction's view on causation is (c) central authorities undoubtedly do not want people to release the figures - those who publish figures will usually want to show a system needs reform (in either direction). Wik idea 12:07, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Superscript text
I have made some fairly extensive edits to try to balance the viewpoints on the page. I should introduce myself by saying I am an American law grad who has studied tort reform extensively, including a seminar at Magdalen College, Oxford.
The main edits are as follows:
1- I have eliminated or added counterbalancing viewpoints to offset viewpoints that essentially boil down to "juries are worse than judges".
2- I have eliminated references to a high rate of punitive damage awards in the U.S. In reality, punitive damages are awarded in fewer than 5% of verdicts in tort claims, and fewer than 2% of tort claims result in a verdict in the first place, so you can do the math. The bottom line is that, except in cases of particularly egregious conduct [i.e., intentional assault, egregious drunk driving, rape, etc.], punitive damage awards are a non-factor in settlement negotiations and are not even requested in pleadings as to do so would be frivolous. Typically punitive damage awards are a small multiple (1-3 times) the ordinary damages awarded, although there has been an increase in very large verdicts (which are nearly always reduced by teh court anyway).
3- Article said that the contingency system encourages plaintiff's lawyers to take borderline cases. Nothing could be further from the truth. A plaintiff's lawyer who is on contingency is motivated to select cases with a high likelihood of success, otherwise the attorney doesn't get paid. If the work is hourly, the attorney could care less what happens, because they will get paid either way. The person who is incentivized to pursue a crappy case is the plaintiff, who doesn't have to put any cash outlay into the lawsuit [other than the court costs, which can be substantial], but the plaintiff doesn't know the difference between a good and bad case anyway and mostly relies on the lawyer to guide them, hence, contingency encourages only solid lawsuits, not weak ones.
4- I have clarified where the discussion is really refering to UK tort law. So far there are no allegations of a compensation culture in the US, at least not in the mainstream dialogue on tort reform. We might have a similar concept, but here people refer to it as "personal responsibility". 24.219.30.152 ( talk) 01:16, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
The fist paragraph makes an unsubstantiated claim. "there has been a general increase in compensatory awards over time." That statement is completely baseless without reference to legitimate studies which have concluded such. Moreover, the lack of studies suggesting there has been an increase in compensatory awards is an issue that is central to a fundamental understanding of tort reform. Making such an assertion without reference to objective and verifiable studies concluding the same frame this issue in a bias and distorted way which make it intellectually dishonest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.8.63.99 ( talk) 04:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
...is that Gilbert and Sullivan image REALLY an appropriate image for a "Trial by jury" ? 68.39.174.238 ( talk) 19:06, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
This article needs complete rewriting. It's a single editor's personal essay and opinions about tort reform, and not a discussion of the issue. THF ( talk) 03:56, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
It's also wildly inaccurate in places. The Supreme Court's denial of cert in Philip Morris USA v. Boeken (which is spelled wrong in the article) had nothing to do with punitive damages; the appeal was over FTC preemption. THF ( talk) 04:00, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
The article clearly needs improvement. It cites exactly one reference. The origin of "tort reform" as a campaign issue that benefits businesses and insurance companies is completely absent. See for example The Nation or The Cambridge History of Law in America. Questionic 23:13, 13 January 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Questionic ( talk • contribs)
Looking at this article's other "references" now. First external link to a joke newspaper article about the most frivolous lawsuit contest. [1] Second, LA Times page not found. [2]. Third to Rand Institute graphic from 1991; the graphic does not support the sentence it's attached to. [3] Fourth to undated graphic based on Insurance Information Institute data. [4] Fifth to page of assertions on ATRA website. [5] If the rest of the several dozen "references" come up to this standard, I would say this article has a very serious POV problem. Questionic 17:43, 14 January 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Questionic ( talk • contribs)
The Daniel Fisher quote is inaccurate. Several tort reforms, such as loser pays, make it easier for individuals with good claims to sue businesses. It was criticized at the time. THF ( talk) 23:41, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
By the way, I still object to the Fisher definition in the lead as inaccurate. Last time the solution was to quote Frank as counterbalance, which wasn't my intended consequence; I'd prefer a neutral definition in the lead. THF ( talk) 18:04, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Could you take a look at what I tried to do and see if it meets the wishes of both sides? If somebody wants to tell me which tort reforms "make it easier for individuals with legitimate claims to sue businesses," that information could be added also. Questionic ( talk) 13:35, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
The paragraph on gourley v obgyn needs to be rewritten. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1702:3C30:623F:BDFB:2DCF:A534:A825 ( talk) 01:21, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
The high cost of medical malpractice insurance is a common talking point for "tort reform." But according to one recent paper [6]: "The recent focus by the American Medical Association and physicians about the dramatic increases in medical malpractice insurance premiums, and their suggestion of a cap on non-economic damages, deserves a closer look. According to Baicker and Chandra (2004), increases in premiums are not affected by past or present malpractice payments, but may increase due to other unrelated factors. Chandra, Nundy, and Seabury (2005) find that the rising cost of medical services may explain the bulk of the growth of “compensatory awards”. They also find that the greatest ten percent of the malpractice payments have grown at a smaller pace than the average payment for the years 1991 and 2003. This means that the “medical malpractice crisis” is not necessarily fueled by the growth in malpractice payments. Furthermore, malpractice pressure actually forces our hospitals to be technically more efficient. This implies that existence of the medical malpractice system is beneficial, and its strength should not be diluted by either putting caps on non-economic damages or by decreasing the statute of limitations." See also article in Slate "The Medical Malpractice Myth" [7]. Questionic 22:11, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
The claims made in 1990 by Professor Mackay (not Mackey) about product innovation do not belong in a section on product safety. Furthermore his "it must follow that..." argument is a clear case of the logical fallacy Post hoc ergo propter hoc. It would make equivalent sense to say "It must follow that the product liability doctrine has caused US manufacturers to live near Detroit, make gas-guzzling SUVs, and seek federal bailouts." Also, I don't see any verifiable source given for Mackay's quote or for John D Graham's either. Is there such a source that others could refer to? Please let's keep the debate strictly to Wikipedia policy and trying to find good, cited sources for all points of view advanced. I consider this article too heavy on ATRA POV as it stands, but I hope our common goal is to present both sides fairly. Questionic 01:36, 15 January 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Questionic ( talk • contribs)
The external link for increased number of lawyers goes to a Newsbatch graph, which gives its source as this government document on medical malpractice. The data behind the bar graph appears in Table 1, giving the number of lawyers per 100,000 population in 1980 as 230 (with a standard deviation of 61) and in 2003 as 347 (with a standard deviation of 135). These are huge error bars, which appear nowhere on the Newsbatch graph. In fact, The fraction of lawyers in 1980 is well within a standard deviation of the fraction of lawyers in 2003. Elsewhere, maybe same report, someone notes that the demand for divorce and criminal lawyers accounts for most of the growth since 1980.
As for the rest of this section, which consists largely of allegations about predatory behavior by lawyers, where are the facts or numbers backing this up? If this stays in the article, we should for balance include a section alleging predatory behavior by insurance companies based on the known bad actions of a few. Questionic 11:52, 15 January 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Questionic ( talk • contribs)
This section needs balance and better sources.
It contains only two "references", both to graphics based on data provided by strong advocates of "tort reform". Aside from the suspect sourcing, neither graph gives good support to the sentence it was attached to.
"Even when non-economic "pain and suffering" awards are included, it has been estimated that only 46 percent of the total cost of the tort system ultimately ends up in claimants' pockets. [8]" Aside from its other flaws, the 1991 graph linked to here has nothing to do with that statement or with the number 46%.
"Tort reform advocates also contend that the system is not even-handed because the amount of per capita tort costs varies significantly from state to state. [9]" Surely it would be relevant to know how and when "per capita tort costs" were "measured" by the Insurance Information Institute, but the graph provides no such information.
To my mind, this section should be the heart of the case for tort reform rather than a few lame, sawed-off talking points. It should advance a clear, well-supported case that our current tort system does a worse job compensating victims than could be accomplished if the reforms they seek were in place. If lawyers (and insurance companies) offered their services without charging anything, that would obviously leave more money to compensate victims, but that is not what tort reformers propose.
The section should also present the opposing case: that "tort reform" would impose a net cost on the victims of injury and/or on society as a whole. I will be editing this section to try to make it look more like what I think it should be; I hope others with value to add will jump in and add it.
In my opinion, compensating victims is one important goal of tort law; another is punishing/deterring behavior that injures others. Questionic ( talk) 18:23, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
OK, I took a whack at improving that section. I also looked at more references that might have useful info for some other sections: "What are the Costs of Litigation?" (1995) Than N. Luu and "Medical Liability: Balancing Access to Health Care, Patient Safety and Compensation" by Brenda Fitzgerald (February 11, 2005). Strangely, the Fitzgerald article cites the Luu article as her source for the following statement: "For those who sue and win, only 42 percent of the money awarded in medical tort cases ever reaches the patients or their families: 33 percent goes to lawyers and 25 percent goes to administrative costs." I cannot find anything remotely like this statement in the copy of the Luu article that's online. Mysterious, and of course those (1995?) numbers would be quite out-of-date by now anyway. Questionic ( talk) 01:46, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Klick/Stratmann (2005) found non-economic damages caps improved infant mortality rates. THF ( talk) 01:49, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
For white infant mortality, we do not find a beneficial effect of the increased access to physicians occasioned by the passage of non-economic damage caps. We do find however that joint and several liability reform worsens the white infant mortality rate and the effect is statistically significant (p = 0.00). Joint and several liability reform is associated with an increase of 14 deaths per 100,000 live white births, a 3 percent relative effect. The effect loses statistical significance when we include state-specific trends.
We present the same specifications for black infant mortality rates. Among blacks, we do not find any statistically significant effect of joint and several liability reform. We do, however, find statistically significant effects of non-economic damage caps, collateral source reform, and restrictions on contingency fees, though only the collateral source effect is robust to all specifications.
In the specifications that do not include state-specific trends, we find that non-economic damage caps reduce black infant mortality by 55 deaths per 100,000 live black births, a relative effect of nearly 6 percent. When state-specific trends are included, the effect is no longer statistically significant.
Collateral source reform leads to statistically significant increases in black infant mortality in all specifications. The estimated effect suggests an increase of 44 deaths per 100,000 live black births, a relative effect of 5 percent when state-specific trends are not included and 73 additional deaths per 100,000 live black births (an 8 percent increase) when we control for state-specific trends.
Restrictions on contingency fees are associated with a decline of 69 deaths per 100,000 live black births, a 7 percent decrease, when state-specific trends are not included. This effect disappears when we control for state-specific trends.
The only effect that is consistent across specifications then is a negative effect of collateral source reform within the black community.
A couple more cites:
THF ( talk) 03:40, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#Tort reform and User:THF.
Talk pages are not the place for user disputes. See WP:TALK. I've linked there to avoid WP:MULTI. Cool Hand Luke 21:25, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Incidentally, Wikidea, the person who's complaining about lack of collaborative editing, just deleted several weeks of work and several thousand bytes of edits added by three editors who had nothing to do with me. THF ( talk) 01:15, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Wikidea's description of class actions and the problems relating to them is entirely fictional original research, and one-sided at that. Can someone please add the {totallydisputed} and {originalresearch} tags? THF ( talk) 01:09, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
And if someone is interested in including points of view other than Wikidea's original research, material can be found at:
- THF ( talk) 01:15, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Lastly, I'd just like to note that we are still unaware as to what exactly Ted finds objectionable about the class action paragraph. Yes, it does not appear to be brilliant, but frankly, it's better than nothing, and that is what we're getting about what to do from Ted. Wik idea 02:00, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
What I find objectionable about this section is that it is completely factually inaccurate unreferenced original research, and violates NPOV. This is why I request {totallydisputed} and {originalresearch} tags. Since Wikidea does not acknowledge that he has completely misunderstood class action law, we need an {expert} tag, too.
That's just off the top of my head; I might think of more if I gave it thought. In short, this section is Wikidea's personal opinions about class actions, and has nothing to do with tort reform or the tort reform debate over class actions.
(I'm ignoring the repeated WP:NPA violation. The idea that I have a conflict of interest with the Wall Street Journal because I've written four or five op-eds for them is pretty humorous; they're the only major newspaper that writes about tort reform, so of course I'm going to have written for them and cite them.) THF ( talk) 02:44, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Here's a short piece discussing some of the issues in 5, 6, 7, and 12. Apologies in advance for the identity of the author, but one can follow the footnotes to other secondary sources that discuss the same thing for less objectionable authors. THF ( talk) 23:06, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Dubious statement:
Wik idea 10:28, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
why is "Tort reform refers to proposed changes in the civil justice system that would reduce tort litigation or damages." preferrable to something like "Tort reform refers to proposed changes in the civil justice system that would mainly serve to reduce the ability of people to sue for damages caused by companies". Cinnamon colbert ( talk) 13:32, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
I would argue that the phrase "tort reform" is, in and of itself, not NPOV, as, in common english usage, the word "reform" implies improving or fixing something broken; that is "tort reform" is a loaded phrase. I would argue that the title and intro should be something like (this isn't right, but it is going in the right direction): title: Proposed changes to the US system of civil litigation. In the US, private parties, such as individuals or companies, who has been harmed or injured by the action of another private party, can sue to recover money as compensation for the damage. A loose coalition, mainly identified with the Republican party and large business, maintains that such suits are often unjustified, and that the monetary awards are so large, and the fear of such awards is so great, that businesss and other institutions are harmed. This coalition has proposed cahnges to the civil justice system termed "tort reform'; as implied by the word "reform" the coalition feels that the current system is broken and need to be fixed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cinnamon colbert ( talk • contribs) 14:35, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
The artcle mentions that Tort Reform was a centerpiece of George W. Bush's 2004 run for office, but does not give any account of the Tort Reform that passed or did not pass under his administration.
It would be nice to have a list of any major attempts in the US for Tort Reform legislation on the national level. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.24.167.52 ( talk) 17:53, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
First, I think a more NPOV title would be "Themes of the "tort reform" debate." Second, I am puzzled to see the obscure and rarely discussed reform "special malpractice courts" at the head of this list of general themes. I will try to re-organize these in some order that reflects their relative importance. Questionic ( talk) 18:15, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
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