![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Amyron was recorded only by Stephanus of Byzantium, citing Hecataeus, and it was not directly linked with Tomorr. The link is a modern hypothesis, and as such it should be included in this article, not as a fact. The content about the ultimate origin of the Dexari and the etymology of Dassaretis is WP:UNDUE and does not belong to this article. There are respective Wikipedia articles that deal with them in abundance. – Βατο ( talk) 11:08, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
It is clear that the Dexari gave their name to the territory Dasaretis, and the Mt. Amyron is the beautiful Mt. Tomor, the central feature of Dassaretis.. Moreover, Cambridge Ancient History, vol 6, reads:
The Chaones, as we shall see (pp. 434,437), were a group of Greek-speaking tribes, and the Dexari, or as they were called later the Dassaretae, were the most northerly member of the group.. It appears that Bato needs a better explanation about:
1. the removal of Chaonians/Dexari as a Greek tribe,
2. how something that "it is clear" can be interpreted as an.... hypothesis.
Alexikoua (
talk)
15:23, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
The mountain has been connected by modern scholars to Mount Amyronis precisely in accordance with Hammond. – Βατο ( talk) 17:07, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
It is clear that the Dexari gave their name to the territory Dasaretis, and the Mt. Amyron is the beautiful Mt. Tomor., is what Hammond-Griffith declare. A fact that should be restored in the history section. Alexikoua ( talk) 17:12, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
It is mentioned by different ancient authors, but I have not to add them here, since there are many secondary reliable sources that support it. This WP:SYNTH addition is WP:OFFTOPIC. – Βατο ( talk) 22:33, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
...they lived under Mt Amyron, which is best identified with Mt Tomor. Thus the Dexari held the area which was later called Dassaretis , namely the southern part of the lakeland and the hilly country to the south west of it . The Chaones, as we shall see (pp. 434,437), were a group of Greek-speaking tribes, and the Dexari, or as they were called later the Dassaretae, were the most northerly member of the group.;. Any further wp:BRD disruption of this kind will be reported. Alexikoua ( talk) 11:06, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
In the passage, it is reported that the Dexaroi, a Chaonian tribe of the northwestern Greek group, dwelled under this mountain.At the opposite of the synthesized POV narrative you are pushing here, the relevant ancient authors (Stephanus citing Hecataeus) did not say that Chaonians were "of the northwestern Greek group". Anyway that part is irrelevant for Mount Tomorr. Moreover the equation of the two oronyms Tomorr and Amyron is only a modern speculation, and exploiting this hypothesis to push an off-topic certain POV is disruptive for Wikipedia. The specific articles that deal with the problem of the ultimate origin of the Chaonians are linked, and that is enough for the scope of this article. – Βατο ( talk) 21:25, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
they lived under Mt Amyron, which is best identified with Mt Tomor. Thus the Dexari held the area which was later called Dassaretis , namely the southern part of the lakeland and the hilly country to the south west of it . The Chaones, as we shall see (pp. 434,437),
were a group of Greek-speaking tribes,(removed as SYNTH by Bato) and the Dexari, or as they were called later the Dassaretae, were the most northerly member of the group.
Honestly, this can't work. This part can stay entirely inside the article. No need to selectively remove any part of the above quote.
Alexikoua (
talk)
18:34, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
there are many renowned modern scholars like Cabanes and Stipčević that consider the Chaonians to have been originally IllyrianWho is WP:SYNTHing now? Khirurg ( talk) 01:39, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
The following are the names of some of the larger tribes belonging to the Illyrian ethnic group , starting in the south and working northwards: In the extreme south there were those tribes inhabiting Epirus (Atintani, Chaones, Molossi, etc.), which in historical times no longer belonged to the Illyrians because they had since, to a great extent, become Hellenized, but were considered to be of Illyrian origin.The analysis of the ultimate origin of ancient tribes that are not directly related to this article, especially because the equation between Tomorr and Amyron is a modern speculation, is clearly off-topic.
There is an overall consensus nowadays that the Greek-speaking population of Epirus.... Tomorr was not in Epirus, but southern Illyria. WP:OR and WP:SYNTH should be avoided in Wikipedia. – Βατο ( talk) 11:20, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
For instance , the description of a Chaonian as being a Peukestos , and the mention of another subdivision of the Khaones named the Dexaroi , are evidence that the Khaones had been Illyrian - speakers originally , since the name ' Peukestos ' is identical with that of the Apulian Peuketioi , while the name ' Dexaroi ' looks like a variant of the name ' Dassaretioi ' , which was borne by an Illyrian people whose territory extended from the shores of Lake Okhrida ( Lykhnidos ) south - south - westwards to the upper valley of the River Uzúmi , which joins the Devol to form the Semeni ( Apsos ) . Above all , the most prominent mountain in Epirus , Mount Tomaros or Tmaros , which overhangs the Yannina basin , bears the same name as the most prominent mountain in southern Illyria , the Mount Tomaros that divides the Uzúmi valley from the Devol ( Eordaïkos ) valley .
they lived under Mt Amyron, which is best identified with Mt Tomor. Thus the Dexari held the area which was later called Dassaretis , namely the southern part of the lakeland and the hilly country to the south west of it . The Chaones, as we shall see (pp. 434,437),
were a group of Greek-speaking tribes,(removed as SYNTH by Bato) and the Dexari, or as they were called later the Dassaretae, were the most northerly member of the group.
This needs to be addresed. Else it offers a false impression.
Alexikoua (
talk)
00:15, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
northwestern Greek group", which is as well an original research not supported even by Hammond. Anyway, we are now discussing for something that is off-topic for an article dedicated to Mount Tomorr, you should have figured it out, as it has already been told by several editors. – Βατο ( talk) 08:52, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
"of the northwestern Greek group"is original research, unbalanced and not related to this article. – Βατο ( talk) 11:59, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
"the most prominent mountain in southern Illyria , the Mount Tomaros that divides the Uzúmi valley from the Devol ( Eordaïkos ) valley .")—in the times of Hecataeus of Miletus (6th century BC), and which disappear in later times ( Hammond 1972, p. 94
"We hear no more of the Dexari, probably a group of tribes which lost its cohesion, and the name Dassaretii seems to have been used later to describe the peoples of an area of varying extent.") can't be labeled Greek-speaker, without a second speculation (see Toynbee 1969 harvnb error: multiple targets (2×): CITEREFToynbee1969 ( help)
For instance , the description of a Chaonian as being a Peukestos , and the mention of another subdivision of the Khaones named the Dexaroi , are evidence that the Khaones had been Illyrian - speakers originally , since the name ' Peukestos ' is identical with that of the Apulian Peuketioi , while the name ' Dexaroi ' looks like a variant of the name ' Dassaretioi ' , which was borne by an Illyrian people whose territory extended from the shores of Lake Okhrida ( Lykhnidos ) south - south - westwards to the upper valley of the River Uzúmi , which joins the Devol to form the Semeni ( Apsos ) .") because the name Dexaroi is of Illyrian origin ( Kunstmann & Thiergen 1987, pp. 110–112 ) and because the first epigraphic material in Greek appears in Epirus after the 4th century BC ( Filos 2017 ). It cannot be assumed as the "widespread consensus in scholarship", it is only an off-topic POV sentence in an unrelated article. – Βατο ( talk) 13:10, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
There is an overall consensus nowadays that the Greek-speaking population of Epirus, despite its fragmentation into major (Molossoi, Thesprotoi, Chaones) and minor... tribes, spoke a North-West Doric variety. Bato needs to take it to RFC but a doubt if his arguments can be considered decent ones. For future reference Tonybee relied on older research, but nevertheless the "ultimate" origin is something completely irelevant here. Alexikoua ( talk) 14:53, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
The ethnic ambiguity of Epeiros, from the perspective of the Greek colonies, brought about new articulations of Greek and non-Greek iden-tity. To rationalize the origins of the indigenous peoples of Epeiros within the framework of their own history, Greek colonists ascribed to the Epeirote tribes a heroic ancestry from Nostoi. Through a process of acculturation, Epeirote royalty subsequently adopted these same genealogies to explain their own ancestry. One important development that arose in the specific colonial context of the Corinthian and Korkyraian colonies in Epeiros is the notion of opposition between the Greek and Trojan lines of this heroic ancestry. The Molossians, for example, viewed their ancestry as a mixture of Greek and Trojan (i.e., Greek Neoptolemos and Trojan Helenos; see Theopompos, FGrH 115 F355). The Chaonians, on the other hand, viewed their ancestry as strictly Trojan (from Helenos and Andromache), perhaps in opposition to the Greek ethnicity of the colonizers and/or the mixed ancestry of the southern Epeirote tribes.
There is an overall consensus nowadays that the Greek-speaking population of Epirus, despite its fragmentation into major (Molossoi, Thesprotoi, Chaones) and minor... tribes, spoke a North-West Doric variety. In case you feel dissapointed I suggest to avoid this kind of extreme WP:OR, WP:POV, wp:SYNTH and WP:OWN, wp:IDONTLIKEIT and take it to RSN. Saying that Tomor was an Illyrian area is unacceptable based on Hammond and Griffith. Alexikoua ( talk) 15:21, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
they lived under Mt Amyron, which is best identified with Mt Tomor. Thus the Dexari held the area which was later called Dassaretis , namely the southern part of the lakeland and the hilly country to the south west of it . The Chaones, as we shall see (pp. 434,437), were a group of Greek-speaking tribes, and the Dexari, or as they were called later the Dassaretae, were the most northerly member of the group.. The quoted text needs to be entirely presented in the article. On the other hand your version offers the wronf impression that during antiquity this was an Illyrian area. This kind of refusal falls clearly within IDONTLIKEIT considering that the classification of the Chaonians is in agreement in current sholarship. Alexikoua ( talk) 19:58, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
"From the point of view of some modern scholars, some of the Epirote tribes that did not speak dialects of Illyrian should be regarded as Greek, especially if they spoke a dialect of the language... Pierre Cabanes has shown that, linguistically, Greek was spoken in southern Epirus and Illyrian in the north and that there must also have been an area of bilingualism. What is more important, how-ever, is that Illyrian-speakers and Greek-speakers in the regions of modern Epirus and Albania were more similar to each other in their modes of life (and in their habitats-mountains and rain) than to Greeks dwelling in poleis such as Athens or Corinth."Now, we are here discussing of the epigraphic material of peoples in Epirus, while Tomorr was actually located in central Illyris, inhabited by Parthini, Dassaretii and Taulantii, and to the south by Bylliones and Atintani, all conidered Illyrian tribes by ancient authors and modern scholars. This
On the other hand your version offers the wronf impression that during antiquity this was an Illyrian area.is your WP:POV and WP:FRINGE claim. It was definetly an Illyrian area, it is north of the Aoos, and inland of central Illyris. Both ancient authors and archeological finds prove it.
In this edit
[6],
Alexikoua (
talk ·
contribs) adds the text In 1337 it was raided by Albanian tribes at the time they first appeared in Epirus.
. The exact quote in the source, provided by Alexikoua, is In 1337, the Albanians of Epirus Nova invaded the area of Berat and appeared for the first time in Epirus, seizing the fortresses of Skrepario, Timoro and Klisoura
. This is entirely removed by Maleschreiber under the guise of "cleanup"
[7], where he replaces the text with In 1337, the Albanian tribes which lived in the areas of Belegrita (the region of Mt. Tomorr) and
Kanina rose in rebellion and raided the fortress.
. Here is the source Maleschreiber is using
[8], and as you can see, the meaning is entirely changed, and you can probably guess why. The source does not equate "Belegrita" with "the region of Mt. Tomorr". This is original research intended to make the Albanians appear "indigenous" to the area. No explanation is provided for the removal; it is simply hidden within the edit. Not only that, but Fine clearly states the Albanians "raided" Thessaly, Maleschreiber makes that "moved into" Thessaly
[9].
Khirurg (
talk)
01:30, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
The Albanians in the district between Balagrita and Kanina had against risen in rebellion, in spite of the privileges which the emperor had recently granted themand in the footnote he explains
Balagrita lay in the region of Mount Tomor (Tomorit) near Beratand Fine
The Albanians from the regions of Valagrita and Kanina raided into (..). They plundered the Byzantine towns of Berat (..) and Tomor (Timoron). Thank you.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 02:10, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
In 1337, the Albanians of Epirus Nova invaded the area of Berat and appeared for the first time in Epirus, seizing the fortresses of Skrepario, Timoro and Klisoura.is completely different from this:
invaded the areathat you added in the article. Also, the territory where Tomorr is located was in Epirus Nova. The area of Tomorr was already inhabited by Albanians as Nicol directly claims: Nicol 2010, p. 108 :
The Albanians in the district between Balagrita and Kanina had against risen in rebellion, in spite of the privileges which the emperor had recently granted them (...) Balagrita lay in the region of Mount Tomor (Tomorit) near Berat.Nicol deals directly with the information of the Albanian presence in the region of Mount Tomorr, Osswald does not becouse he refers to the area of Berat, two completely different things. Do not misuse bibliography interpreting sources, see WP:SECONDARY for that. – Βατο ( talk) 09:07, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Amyron was recorded only by Stephanus of Byzantium, citing Hecataeus, and it was not directly linked with Tomorr. The link is a modern hypothesis, and as such it should be included in this article, not as a fact. The content about the ultimate origin of the Dexari and the etymology of Dassaretis is WP:UNDUE and does not belong to this article. There are respective Wikipedia articles that deal with them in abundance. – Βατο ( talk) 11:08, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
It is clear that the Dexari gave their name to the territory Dasaretis, and the Mt. Amyron is the beautiful Mt. Tomor, the central feature of Dassaretis.. Moreover, Cambridge Ancient History, vol 6, reads:
The Chaones, as we shall see (pp. 434,437), were a group of Greek-speaking tribes, and the Dexari, or as they were called later the Dassaretae, were the most northerly member of the group.. It appears that Bato needs a better explanation about:
1. the removal of Chaonians/Dexari as a Greek tribe,
2. how something that "it is clear" can be interpreted as an.... hypothesis.
Alexikoua (
talk)
15:23, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
The mountain has been connected by modern scholars to Mount Amyronis precisely in accordance with Hammond. – Βατο ( talk) 17:07, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
It is clear that the Dexari gave their name to the territory Dasaretis, and the Mt. Amyron is the beautiful Mt. Tomor., is what Hammond-Griffith declare. A fact that should be restored in the history section. Alexikoua ( talk) 17:12, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
It is mentioned by different ancient authors, but I have not to add them here, since there are many secondary reliable sources that support it. This WP:SYNTH addition is WP:OFFTOPIC. – Βατο ( talk) 22:33, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
...they lived under Mt Amyron, which is best identified with Mt Tomor. Thus the Dexari held the area which was later called Dassaretis , namely the southern part of the lakeland and the hilly country to the south west of it . The Chaones, as we shall see (pp. 434,437), were a group of Greek-speaking tribes, and the Dexari, or as they were called later the Dassaretae, were the most northerly member of the group.;. Any further wp:BRD disruption of this kind will be reported. Alexikoua ( talk) 11:06, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
In the passage, it is reported that the Dexaroi, a Chaonian tribe of the northwestern Greek group, dwelled under this mountain.At the opposite of the synthesized POV narrative you are pushing here, the relevant ancient authors (Stephanus citing Hecataeus) did not say that Chaonians were "of the northwestern Greek group". Anyway that part is irrelevant for Mount Tomorr. Moreover the equation of the two oronyms Tomorr and Amyron is only a modern speculation, and exploiting this hypothesis to push an off-topic certain POV is disruptive for Wikipedia. The specific articles that deal with the problem of the ultimate origin of the Chaonians are linked, and that is enough for the scope of this article. – Βατο ( talk) 21:25, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
they lived under Mt Amyron, which is best identified with Mt Tomor. Thus the Dexari held the area which was later called Dassaretis , namely the southern part of the lakeland and the hilly country to the south west of it . The Chaones, as we shall see (pp. 434,437),
were a group of Greek-speaking tribes,(removed as SYNTH by Bato) and the Dexari, or as they were called later the Dassaretae, were the most northerly member of the group.
Honestly, this can't work. This part can stay entirely inside the article. No need to selectively remove any part of the above quote.
Alexikoua (
talk)
18:34, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
there are many renowned modern scholars like Cabanes and Stipčević that consider the Chaonians to have been originally IllyrianWho is WP:SYNTHing now? Khirurg ( talk) 01:39, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
The following are the names of some of the larger tribes belonging to the Illyrian ethnic group , starting in the south and working northwards: In the extreme south there were those tribes inhabiting Epirus (Atintani, Chaones, Molossi, etc.), which in historical times no longer belonged to the Illyrians because they had since, to a great extent, become Hellenized, but were considered to be of Illyrian origin.The analysis of the ultimate origin of ancient tribes that are not directly related to this article, especially because the equation between Tomorr and Amyron is a modern speculation, is clearly off-topic.
There is an overall consensus nowadays that the Greek-speaking population of Epirus.... Tomorr was not in Epirus, but southern Illyria. WP:OR and WP:SYNTH should be avoided in Wikipedia. – Βατο ( talk) 11:20, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
For instance , the description of a Chaonian as being a Peukestos , and the mention of another subdivision of the Khaones named the Dexaroi , are evidence that the Khaones had been Illyrian - speakers originally , since the name ' Peukestos ' is identical with that of the Apulian Peuketioi , while the name ' Dexaroi ' looks like a variant of the name ' Dassaretioi ' , which was borne by an Illyrian people whose territory extended from the shores of Lake Okhrida ( Lykhnidos ) south - south - westwards to the upper valley of the River Uzúmi , which joins the Devol to form the Semeni ( Apsos ) . Above all , the most prominent mountain in Epirus , Mount Tomaros or Tmaros , which overhangs the Yannina basin , bears the same name as the most prominent mountain in southern Illyria , the Mount Tomaros that divides the Uzúmi valley from the Devol ( Eordaïkos ) valley .
they lived under Mt Amyron, which is best identified with Mt Tomor. Thus the Dexari held the area which was later called Dassaretis , namely the southern part of the lakeland and the hilly country to the south west of it . The Chaones, as we shall see (pp. 434,437),
were a group of Greek-speaking tribes,(removed as SYNTH by Bato) and the Dexari, or as they were called later the Dassaretae, were the most northerly member of the group.
This needs to be addresed. Else it offers a false impression.
Alexikoua (
talk)
00:15, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
northwestern Greek group", which is as well an original research not supported even by Hammond. Anyway, we are now discussing for something that is off-topic for an article dedicated to Mount Tomorr, you should have figured it out, as it has already been told by several editors. – Βατο ( talk) 08:52, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
"of the northwestern Greek group"is original research, unbalanced and not related to this article. – Βατο ( talk) 11:59, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
"the most prominent mountain in southern Illyria , the Mount Tomaros that divides the Uzúmi valley from the Devol ( Eordaïkos ) valley .")—in the times of Hecataeus of Miletus (6th century BC), and which disappear in later times ( Hammond 1972, p. 94
"We hear no more of the Dexari, probably a group of tribes which lost its cohesion, and the name Dassaretii seems to have been used later to describe the peoples of an area of varying extent.") can't be labeled Greek-speaker, without a second speculation (see Toynbee 1969 harvnb error: multiple targets (2×): CITEREFToynbee1969 ( help)
For instance , the description of a Chaonian as being a Peukestos , and the mention of another subdivision of the Khaones named the Dexaroi , are evidence that the Khaones had been Illyrian - speakers originally , since the name ' Peukestos ' is identical with that of the Apulian Peuketioi , while the name ' Dexaroi ' looks like a variant of the name ' Dassaretioi ' , which was borne by an Illyrian people whose territory extended from the shores of Lake Okhrida ( Lykhnidos ) south - south - westwards to the upper valley of the River Uzúmi , which joins the Devol to form the Semeni ( Apsos ) .") because the name Dexaroi is of Illyrian origin ( Kunstmann & Thiergen 1987, pp. 110–112 ) and because the first epigraphic material in Greek appears in Epirus after the 4th century BC ( Filos 2017 ). It cannot be assumed as the "widespread consensus in scholarship", it is only an off-topic POV sentence in an unrelated article. – Βατο ( talk) 13:10, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
There is an overall consensus nowadays that the Greek-speaking population of Epirus, despite its fragmentation into major (Molossoi, Thesprotoi, Chaones) and minor... tribes, spoke a North-West Doric variety. Bato needs to take it to RFC but a doubt if his arguments can be considered decent ones. For future reference Tonybee relied on older research, but nevertheless the "ultimate" origin is something completely irelevant here. Alexikoua ( talk) 14:53, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
The ethnic ambiguity of Epeiros, from the perspective of the Greek colonies, brought about new articulations of Greek and non-Greek iden-tity. To rationalize the origins of the indigenous peoples of Epeiros within the framework of their own history, Greek colonists ascribed to the Epeirote tribes a heroic ancestry from Nostoi. Through a process of acculturation, Epeirote royalty subsequently adopted these same genealogies to explain their own ancestry. One important development that arose in the specific colonial context of the Corinthian and Korkyraian colonies in Epeiros is the notion of opposition between the Greek and Trojan lines of this heroic ancestry. The Molossians, for example, viewed their ancestry as a mixture of Greek and Trojan (i.e., Greek Neoptolemos and Trojan Helenos; see Theopompos, FGrH 115 F355). The Chaonians, on the other hand, viewed their ancestry as strictly Trojan (from Helenos and Andromache), perhaps in opposition to the Greek ethnicity of the colonizers and/or the mixed ancestry of the southern Epeirote tribes.
There is an overall consensus nowadays that the Greek-speaking population of Epirus, despite its fragmentation into major (Molossoi, Thesprotoi, Chaones) and minor... tribes, spoke a North-West Doric variety. In case you feel dissapointed I suggest to avoid this kind of extreme WP:OR, WP:POV, wp:SYNTH and WP:OWN, wp:IDONTLIKEIT and take it to RSN. Saying that Tomor was an Illyrian area is unacceptable based on Hammond and Griffith. Alexikoua ( talk) 15:21, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
they lived under Mt Amyron, which is best identified with Mt Tomor. Thus the Dexari held the area which was later called Dassaretis , namely the southern part of the lakeland and the hilly country to the south west of it . The Chaones, as we shall see (pp. 434,437), were a group of Greek-speaking tribes, and the Dexari, or as they were called later the Dassaretae, were the most northerly member of the group.. The quoted text needs to be entirely presented in the article. On the other hand your version offers the wronf impression that during antiquity this was an Illyrian area. This kind of refusal falls clearly within IDONTLIKEIT considering that the classification of the Chaonians is in agreement in current sholarship. Alexikoua ( talk) 19:58, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
"From the point of view of some modern scholars, some of the Epirote tribes that did not speak dialects of Illyrian should be regarded as Greek, especially if they spoke a dialect of the language... Pierre Cabanes has shown that, linguistically, Greek was spoken in southern Epirus and Illyrian in the north and that there must also have been an area of bilingualism. What is more important, how-ever, is that Illyrian-speakers and Greek-speakers in the regions of modern Epirus and Albania were more similar to each other in their modes of life (and in their habitats-mountains and rain) than to Greeks dwelling in poleis such as Athens or Corinth."Now, we are here discussing of the epigraphic material of peoples in Epirus, while Tomorr was actually located in central Illyris, inhabited by Parthini, Dassaretii and Taulantii, and to the south by Bylliones and Atintani, all conidered Illyrian tribes by ancient authors and modern scholars. This
On the other hand your version offers the wronf impression that during antiquity this was an Illyrian area.is your WP:POV and WP:FRINGE claim. It was definetly an Illyrian area, it is north of the Aoos, and inland of central Illyris. Both ancient authors and archeological finds prove it.
In this edit
[6],
Alexikoua (
talk ·
contribs) adds the text In 1337 it was raided by Albanian tribes at the time they first appeared in Epirus.
. The exact quote in the source, provided by Alexikoua, is In 1337, the Albanians of Epirus Nova invaded the area of Berat and appeared for the first time in Epirus, seizing the fortresses of Skrepario, Timoro and Klisoura
. This is entirely removed by Maleschreiber under the guise of "cleanup"
[7], where he replaces the text with In 1337, the Albanian tribes which lived in the areas of Belegrita (the region of Mt. Tomorr) and
Kanina rose in rebellion and raided the fortress.
. Here is the source Maleschreiber is using
[8], and as you can see, the meaning is entirely changed, and you can probably guess why. The source does not equate "Belegrita" with "the region of Mt. Tomorr". This is original research intended to make the Albanians appear "indigenous" to the area. No explanation is provided for the removal; it is simply hidden within the edit. Not only that, but Fine clearly states the Albanians "raided" Thessaly, Maleschreiber makes that "moved into" Thessaly
[9].
Khirurg (
talk)
01:30, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
The Albanians in the district between Balagrita and Kanina had against risen in rebellion, in spite of the privileges which the emperor had recently granted themand in the footnote he explains
Balagrita lay in the region of Mount Tomor (Tomorit) near Beratand Fine
The Albanians from the regions of Valagrita and Kanina raided into (..). They plundered the Byzantine towns of Berat (..) and Tomor (Timoron). Thank you.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 02:10, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
In 1337, the Albanians of Epirus Nova invaded the area of Berat and appeared for the first time in Epirus, seizing the fortresses of Skrepario, Timoro and Klisoura.is completely different from this:
invaded the areathat you added in the article. Also, the territory where Tomorr is located was in Epirus Nova. The area of Tomorr was already inhabited by Albanians as Nicol directly claims: Nicol 2010, p. 108 :
The Albanians in the district between Balagrita and Kanina had against risen in rebellion, in spite of the privileges which the emperor had recently granted them (...) Balagrita lay in the region of Mount Tomor (Tomorit) near Berat.Nicol deals directly with the information of the Albanian presence in the region of Mount Tomorr, Osswald does not becouse he refers to the area of Berat, two completely different things. Do not misuse bibliography interpreting sources, see WP:SECONDARY for that. – Βατο ( talk) 09:07, 21 October 2020 (UTC)