![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
"There he was told by Sr. Briege McKenna, in an alleged prophecy" Who alleged this? There is no source. ps I don't understand the business about peer review. When I click on that link, there is nothing with his name. -- Richardson mcphillips ( talk) 00:15, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
"There he was allegedly told by
Sr. Briege McKenna and Fr.
Emiliano Tardif in a prophetic message that Vlašić would become the center of a great movement with the help of the
Virgin Mary.
[1]
[2]
[3]
Moved sentence here in the hope that someone may explain who allegedly had this vision. McKenna?, Tardif? Vlašić himself?
Manannan67 (
talk)
20:24, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
References
This notice below was placed on the page when editing. Just with a quick glance I am see many poorly sourced "references". Someone needs to delete those references and replace with high-quality sources. See the discussion on the talk page of Our Lady of Medjugorje. Also someone forgot to add the Peric source to this article. To see the links just go to the article and click edit.
"Notice about sources This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Take extra care to use high-quality sources. Material about living persons should not be added when the only sourcing is tabloid journalism; see more information on sources. Never use self-published sources about a living person unless written or published by the subject; see WP:BLPSPS and WP:BLPSELFPUB.
Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libelous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard. If you are connected to one of the subjects of this article and need help, see this page." Red Rose 13 ( talk) 06:27, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Red Rose 13: So here is what other users think about the disputed sources you challenged - [1]. My suggestion is that we attribute the authors only when some controversial statements are made. Basic facts like "Vlašić was ordained a priest on 10 December 1980" do not need to be attributed. Or you think otherwise? -- Governor Sheng ( talk) 16:21, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
Neutrality issues apart, there are other ways in-text attribution can mislead. The sentence below suggests The New York Times has alone made this important discovery:
According to The New York Times, the sun will set in the west this evening.
The sun sets in the west each evening.
@ Red Rose 13:, familiarise yourself with the subject you want to edit, otherwise, you're just being disruptive.
Mnoge su me osobe i dalje tražile. Primao sam ih u mojoj privatnoj kući i u kućama Fondacije „Utvrda Bezgrešne“. Pojašnjavam da je gore spomenuta Fondacija osnovana 2005. godine, ne od mene nego od strane privatnih osoba koje su smatrale da trebaju pridonijeti širenju moga djela. Više nisam pohađao javna mjesta bogoštovlja. Nisam nikoga tražio, ali sam sve prihvaćao, jer sam smatrao da je to moja svećenička dužnost. Trebam iskreno reći da je ne mali broj osoba koje sam susretao izrazio sve veću nelagodu ne samo u vezi s onim što se događa u svijetu, nego i u Katoličkoj Crkvi. https://premanovomstvaranju.org/2020/10/27/moja-svecenicka-sluzba/
-- Governor Sheng ( talk) 21:55, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
You are right I should have brought it here in the beginning. Paragraph from the page: In 2005, Vlašić founded a society of believers inspired by the Medjugorje apparitions. His society gained permission from the Bishop of Brescia Giulio Sanguineti to open its headquarters in Gheda near Brescia. [1] However, Vlašić states that this society, called "The Fortress of the Impeccable" wasn't established by himself, but by other people keen on spreading his work. [2] Here are the exact words in English from the reference you placed there: "In the town of Ghedi near Brescia, Vlašić and his associate Stefanija Caterina founded the community "Church of Jesus Christ of All the Universe" which also has its own website."[Pročitajte više na: https://www.vecernji.hr/vijesti/laznog-franjevca-iz-medugorja-opet-izopcili-iz-crkve-iz-vatikana-tvrde-da-je-opasan-1440699 - www.vecernji.hr]
For the 2nd sentence, I just read through your reference claiming "The Fortress of the Impeccable" was the name and I found absolutely not one word about "The Fortress of the Impeccable". Read it yourself.
So in conclusion this is all that can be on the Wikipedia page. In 2005, Vlašić founded a society of believers inspired by the Medjugorje apparitions. His society, Church of Jesus Christ of All the Universe, gained permission from the Bishop of Brescia Giulio Sanguineti to open its headquarters in Gheda near Brescia. Red Rose 13 ( talk) 22:33, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
You will need to prove this "The Fortress of the Impeccable" is mentioned in these references which I have already gone over with a fine tooth comb. It is not up to me to prove it. If you can't, we need to remove the reference and the sentence. Red Rose 13 ( talk) 23:52, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
In 2005, Vlašić founded a society of believers inspired by the Medjugorje apparitions. His society gained permission from the Bishop of Brescia Giulio Sanguineti to open its headquarters in Gheda near Brescia.[9] However, Vlašić states that this society, called "The Fortress of the Impeccable" wasn't established by himself, but by other people keen on spreading his work.[13]
Governor Sheng Assume good faith. I have been working on Wikipedia for 7 hours straight today. I reviewed the link in even more detail and here is what I found:
Three different things: ,
(1) 1987 Queen of Peace, completely yours - through Mary to Jesus" community, which was later dissolved
(2) 2005 Fortress of the Immaculate (not Impeccable)He saw people in the houses of the Fortress of the Immaculate Conception Foundation apparently donated by supporters in support of Vlasic and his work - sounds like a community.
(3) 2018 Church of Jesus Christ of the Universe - He officially established this church in 2018.
On their website I found this as well under About Us #2 - The Foundation, “Fortress of the Immaculate”, where two young women consecrated themselves, was founded in 2005. It was founded by the inspiration of some people who, following Father Tomislav and Medjugorje, encountered God and changed their life through the apparitions of Medjugorje; thus, they decided to donate part of their property to create this Foundation in order to divulge and promote Mary Most Holy’s thoughts that She expressed in Medjugorje.
Pretty straight forward.
Red Rose 13 (
talk)
01:47, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
References
Sources that have already been established on the Our Lady of Medjugorje talk page that are not reliable and too close to the subject are listed there and discussed there. Talk:Our Lady of Medjugorje You are using some of those in this article and that is some of what I was correcting and some times actually found a better reference and replaced the unreliable ones. All you had to do was read my comments as I made the edits. I am going to be putting much of it back in. Red Rose 13 ( talk) 20:37, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Please see the guidelines on pages for Living Persons. Very important Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons to follow this strictly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Red Rose 13 ( talk • contribs) 21:01, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Rather than revert GSheng's revert again. I am listing the reliable sources and words he just deleted. One needs to go through the revision history to see it:
If one looks through the revisions and claims, he used about 4 spacers in Croatian for some reason, here is one example that I translated:
uređajima što često može dovesti do različitih distrakcija te problema (Davie i Hilber, 2017).
devices which can often lead to different distractions and problems (Davie and Hilber, 2017)
Red Rose 13 (
talk)
23:11, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Etc... Red Rose 13 ( talk) 21:06, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
You forgot:
There is a discussion here [
[5]] about sources that we have been instructed not use on these biographical pages. I copied and pasted part of it here @
Slp1::
Regarding Kutlesa
Btw, Here is the link explaining Wikipedia guidelines on Primary & Secondary sources WP:RSPRIMARY. Your links don't relate to Wikipedia guidelines and just a link to the definition on Wikipedia itself. Red Rose 13 ( talk) 01:41, 24 March 2021 (UTC) Red Rose 13 ( talk) 01:51, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. Users who persistently or egregiously violate this policy may be blocked from editing.
"Biographies of living persons ("BLPs") must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. This policy applies to any living person mentioned in a BLP, whether or not that person is the subject of the article, and to material about living persons in other articles and on other pages, including talk pages.[b] The burden of evidence rests with the editor who adds or restores the material." Red Rose 13 ( talk) 01:41, 24 March 2021 (UTC) Red Rose 13 ( talk) 01:51, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
Your understanding is wrong. Someone being a monsignor of the Catholic Church doesn't mean anything. However, your hypocrisy allows you to, while claiming Kutleša is partisan because he's a Catholic priest, use Klimek, also a Catholic priest, as a source and to claim that Klimek is an independent source. This doesn't make Kutleša's book "a compromised source", but it could make a person using this line of argumentation a "compromised person", or a hypocrite.
(1) He didn't prepare the book for the Ordinariate, but for the general public. This is only your interpretation of his words, which cannot be interpreted as such by anyone with a bit of common sense and basic knowledge of the Croatian language. Do you speak Croatian or are you using Google translate? "Priredio/pripremio [name of the author]" is rather translated as "edited by" in English. This is because his book contains interviews and documents from other authors besides writings of his own. One must remain astonished by your silly argumentation.
(2) Kutleša's book being the bishop's version of the book is again, only your interpretation of the book's content. Bishop Ratko Perić didn't edit the book. He is the author of few chapters, which doesn't influence Kutleša's credibility. Co-authorship is a normal thing. The person of the bishop is one thing, the Episcopal Ordinariate is another. A bishop with his personal name is a physical person, while the Ordinariate is a legal entity that exists whether there's seating bishop or not, or if the bishop is John Johnson or Peter Peterson. The Ordinariate is always the same. It's like claiming the books published by the Oxford University Press are all influenced by the seating president of the University or director of the Press. This doesn't make any sense.
(3) Same thing. The bishop can edit or write few chapters of a book, which can be edited by someone else. The book, however, isn't the product of the bishop.
Your pointless arguments aside, I can conclude that you also distorted WP:RSPRIMARY. First, you wrongly concluded that Kutleša's book is a primary source, which by any definition it's not. Then, secondly, you concluded that it, as such, cannot be used on Wikipedia because it breaks WP:RSPRIMARY. It's like me saying Charles Charleson (in reality a fellow human) is a dog, therefore, he's not allowed to walk on the beach because there's a sign that forbids entry to dogs. That being said, all your silly arguments that are connected to WP:rsprimary like WP:DOB and so on, are baseless. -- Governor Sheng ( talk) 22:42, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
Also, it might interest you: "primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts..." Like a birth date or transfers? [8] -- Governor Sheng ( talk) 22:57, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
Bishop's Ordinariate, located in Mostar, is the seat of Bishop of Mostar-Duvno Red Rose 13 ( talk) 23:07, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
"There he was told by Sr. Briege McKenna, in an alleged prophecy" Who alleged this? There is no source. ps I don't understand the business about peer review. When I click on that link, there is nothing with his name. -- Richardson mcphillips ( talk) 00:15, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
"There he was allegedly told by
Sr. Briege McKenna and Fr.
Emiliano Tardif in a prophetic message that Vlašić would become the center of a great movement with the help of the
Virgin Mary.
[1]
[2]
[3]
Moved sentence here in the hope that someone may explain who allegedly had this vision. McKenna?, Tardif? Vlašić himself?
Manannan67 (
talk)
20:24, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
References
This notice below was placed on the page when editing. Just with a quick glance I am see many poorly sourced "references". Someone needs to delete those references and replace with high-quality sources. See the discussion on the talk page of Our Lady of Medjugorje. Also someone forgot to add the Peric source to this article. To see the links just go to the article and click edit.
"Notice about sources This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Take extra care to use high-quality sources. Material about living persons should not be added when the only sourcing is tabloid journalism; see more information on sources. Never use self-published sources about a living person unless written or published by the subject; see WP:BLPSPS and WP:BLPSELFPUB.
Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libelous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard. If you are connected to one of the subjects of this article and need help, see this page." Red Rose 13 ( talk) 06:27, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Red Rose 13: So here is what other users think about the disputed sources you challenged - [1]. My suggestion is that we attribute the authors only when some controversial statements are made. Basic facts like "Vlašić was ordained a priest on 10 December 1980" do not need to be attributed. Or you think otherwise? -- Governor Sheng ( talk) 16:21, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
Neutrality issues apart, there are other ways in-text attribution can mislead. The sentence below suggests The New York Times has alone made this important discovery:
According to The New York Times, the sun will set in the west this evening.
The sun sets in the west each evening.
@ Red Rose 13:, familiarise yourself with the subject you want to edit, otherwise, you're just being disruptive.
Mnoge su me osobe i dalje tražile. Primao sam ih u mojoj privatnoj kući i u kućama Fondacije „Utvrda Bezgrešne“. Pojašnjavam da je gore spomenuta Fondacija osnovana 2005. godine, ne od mene nego od strane privatnih osoba koje su smatrale da trebaju pridonijeti širenju moga djela. Više nisam pohađao javna mjesta bogoštovlja. Nisam nikoga tražio, ali sam sve prihvaćao, jer sam smatrao da je to moja svećenička dužnost. Trebam iskreno reći da je ne mali broj osoba koje sam susretao izrazio sve veću nelagodu ne samo u vezi s onim što se događa u svijetu, nego i u Katoličkoj Crkvi. https://premanovomstvaranju.org/2020/10/27/moja-svecenicka-sluzba/
-- Governor Sheng ( talk) 21:55, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
You are right I should have brought it here in the beginning. Paragraph from the page: In 2005, Vlašić founded a society of believers inspired by the Medjugorje apparitions. His society gained permission from the Bishop of Brescia Giulio Sanguineti to open its headquarters in Gheda near Brescia. [1] However, Vlašić states that this society, called "The Fortress of the Impeccable" wasn't established by himself, but by other people keen on spreading his work. [2] Here are the exact words in English from the reference you placed there: "In the town of Ghedi near Brescia, Vlašić and his associate Stefanija Caterina founded the community "Church of Jesus Christ of All the Universe" which also has its own website."[Pročitajte više na: https://www.vecernji.hr/vijesti/laznog-franjevca-iz-medugorja-opet-izopcili-iz-crkve-iz-vatikana-tvrde-da-je-opasan-1440699 - www.vecernji.hr]
For the 2nd sentence, I just read through your reference claiming "The Fortress of the Impeccable" was the name and I found absolutely not one word about "The Fortress of the Impeccable". Read it yourself.
So in conclusion this is all that can be on the Wikipedia page. In 2005, Vlašić founded a society of believers inspired by the Medjugorje apparitions. His society, Church of Jesus Christ of All the Universe, gained permission from the Bishop of Brescia Giulio Sanguineti to open its headquarters in Gheda near Brescia. Red Rose 13 ( talk) 22:33, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
You will need to prove this "The Fortress of the Impeccable" is mentioned in these references which I have already gone over with a fine tooth comb. It is not up to me to prove it. If you can't, we need to remove the reference and the sentence. Red Rose 13 ( talk) 23:52, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
In 2005, Vlašić founded a society of believers inspired by the Medjugorje apparitions. His society gained permission from the Bishop of Brescia Giulio Sanguineti to open its headquarters in Gheda near Brescia.[9] However, Vlašić states that this society, called "The Fortress of the Impeccable" wasn't established by himself, but by other people keen on spreading his work.[13]
Governor Sheng Assume good faith. I have been working on Wikipedia for 7 hours straight today. I reviewed the link in even more detail and here is what I found:
Three different things: ,
(1) 1987 Queen of Peace, completely yours - through Mary to Jesus" community, which was later dissolved
(2) 2005 Fortress of the Immaculate (not Impeccable)He saw people in the houses of the Fortress of the Immaculate Conception Foundation apparently donated by supporters in support of Vlasic and his work - sounds like a community.
(3) 2018 Church of Jesus Christ of the Universe - He officially established this church in 2018.
On their website I found this as well under About Us #2 - The Foundation, “Fortress of the Immaculate”, where two young women consecrated themselves, was founded in 2005. It was founded by the inspiration of some people who, following Father Tomislav and Medjugorje, encountered God and changed their life through the apparitions of Medjugorje; thus, they decided to donate part of their property to create this Foundation in order to divulge and promote Mary Most Holy’s thoughts that She expressed in Medjugorje.
Pretty straight forward.
Red Rose 13 (
talk)
01:47, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
References
Sources that have already been established on the Our Lady of Medjugorje talk page that are not reliable and too close to the subject are listed there and discussed there. Talk:Our Lady of Medjugorje You are using some of those in this article and that is some of what I was correcting and some times actually found a better reference and replaced the unreliable ones. All you had to do was read my comments as I made the edits. I am going to be putting much of it back in. Red Rose 13 ( talk) 20:37, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Please see the guidelines on pages for Living Persons. Very important Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons to follow this strictly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Red Rose 13 ( talk • contribs) 21:01, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Rather than revert GSheng's revert again. I am listing the reliable sources and words he just deleted. One needs to go through the revision history to see it:
If one looks through the revisions and claims, he used about 4 spacers in Croatian for some reason, here is one example that I translated:
uređajima što često može dovesti do različitih distrakcija te problema (Davie i Hilber, 2017).
devices which can often lead to different distractions and problems (Davie and Hilber, 2017)
Red Rose 13 (
talk)
23:11, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Etc... Red Rose 13 ( talk) 21:06, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
You forgot:
There is a discussion here [
[5]] about sources that we have been instructed not use on these biographical pages. I copied and pasted part of it here @
Slp1::
Regarding Kutlesa
Btw, Here is the link explaining Wikipedia guidelines on Primary & Secondary sources WP:RSPRIMARY. Your links don't relate to Wikipedia guidelines and just a link to the definition on Wikipedia itself. Red Rose 13 ( talk) 01:41, 24 March 2021 (UTC) Red Rose 13 ( talk) 01:51, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. Users who persistently or egregiously violate this policy may be blocked from editing.
"Biographies of living persons ("BLPs") must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. This policy applies to any living person mentioned in a BLP, whether or not that person is the subject of the article, and to material about living persons in other articles and on other pages, including talk pages.[b] The burden of evidence rests with the editor who adds or restores the material." Red Rose 13 ( talk) 01:41, 24 March 2021 (UTC) Red Rose 13 ( talk) 01:51, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
Your understanding is wrong. Someone being a monsignor of the Catholic Church doesn't mean anything. However, your hypocrisy allows you to, while claiming Kutleša is partisan because he's a Catholic priest, use Klimek, also a Catholic priest, as a source and to claim that Klimek is an independent source. This doesn't make Kutleša's book "a compromised source", but it could make a person using this line of argumentation a "compromised person", or a hypocrite.
(1) He didn't prepare the book for the Ordinariate, but for the general public. This is only your interpretation of his words, which cannot be interpreted as such by anyone with a bit of common sense and basic knowledge of the Croatian language. Do you speak Croatian or are you using Google translate? "Priredio/pripremio [name of the author]" is rather translated as "edited by" in English. This is because his book contains interviews and documents from other authors besides writings of his own. One must remain astonished by your silly argumentation.
(2) Kutleša's book being the bishop's version of the book is again, only your interpretation of the book's content. Bishop Ratko Perić didn't edit the book. He is the author of few chapters, which doesn't influence Kutleša's credibility. Co-authorship is a normal thing. The person of the bishop is one thing, the Episcopal Ordinariate is another. A bishop with his personal name is a physical person, while the Ordinariate is a legal entity that exists whether there's seating bishop or not, or if the bishop is John Johnson or Peter Peterson. The Ordinariate is always the same. It's like claiming the books published by the Oxford University Press are all influenced by the seating president of the University or director of the Press. This doesn't make any sense.
(3) Same thing. The bishop can edit or write few chapters of a book, which can be edited by someone else. The book, however, isn't the product of the bishop.
Your pointless arguments aside, I can conclude that you also distorted WP:RSPRIMARY. First, you wrongly concluded that Kutleša's book is a primary source, which by any definition it's not. Then, secondly, you concluded that it, as such, cannot be used on Wikipedia because it breaks WP:RSPRIMARY. It's like me saying Charles Charleson (in reality a fellow human) is a dog, therefore, he's not allowed to walk on the beach because there's a sign that forbids entry to dogs. That being said, all your silly arguments that are connected to WP:rsprimary like WP:DOB and so on, are baseless. -- Governor Sheng ( talk) 22:42, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
Also, it might interest you: "primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts..." Like a birth date or transfers? [8] -- Governor Sheng ( talk) 22:57, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
Bishop's Ordinariate, located in Mostar, is the seat of Bishop of Mostar-Duvno Red Rose 13 ( talk) 23:07, 24 March 2021 (UTC)