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I certainly never expected an administrator to respond to "repeated IP vandalism" by locking on the vandal's version. And having just faced a threat of blocking for trying to preserve the consensus version, I am wondering if there is any damned point to all of this. It simply points up a key flaw in the Wikipedia model: despite all that is said about the content being determined by consensus, what the software really rewards is a refusal to play by the rules. Anyone think there's any point anymore? Or do we just chalk this article up as a failure of Wikipedia? -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:17, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
An editor removed this external link:
with the edit summary:
Could the editor please explain how copyrights are violated at the site? It appears to be original fan fiction. - Will Beback 21:41, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Out of curiosity I read part of the first story on this site and I have to say that it’s a stretch to call these "original". For example, all of the text and dialogue in bold from the following excerpt was taken word for word from the original book.
Several days went by and still there was no trace of the thief. Tom had plunged into work on the Flying Lab, overseeing countless precision jobs on which the crew’s lives would depend once they were airborne. This did not keep him from pulling out of his pocket many times a day a copy of the symbols inscribed on the strange missile that had fallen from the sky. Solving the mysterious message it seemed to convey had become a game between Tom and his father, both of them aided at times by Enterprises mathematicians who assumed a new security encryption system was being tested. At dinner each evening they would compare notes about the results of their calculations.
"Any progress, Tom?" Mr. Swift finally asked one night, enjoying their friendly contest. Just that day Tom had computed the ratio of the diameters of two oval symbols, one smaller than the other, and concluded that the larger oval was meant to be Earth, the smaller one her neighboring planet Mars. The message could be from Martian scientists!
"Yes, Dad, I have one theory," Tom replied. "Those two overlapping circular shapes—they work out mathematically to represent this planet and Mars, encoding the difference between the polar and equatorial diameters."
"I came to the same conclusion through an entirely different chain of reasoning. At least we know that ‘somebody up there’ is trying to get an important message across to us." Mr. Swift laughed. "Well, we’re still running neck and neck in our race."
"I wish I had more time to work on the symbols," Tom continued. "But I’ll keep at them until we take off for the ionosphere."
Late one morning, after Tom had finished stowing some delicate instruments aboard the Sky Queen, he decided to check the blueprint of the gyrostabilizer caissons. He hurried down to the office and studied the detailed sheet a few moments. Some wiring would have to be changed to avert risk of fire.
As Tom came from the office, he stopped short. Looking up, be was horrified to see wisps of smoke curling from the air vents of the Flying Lab, just as he had imagined! Visions of disaster flashed through his mind.
"But it’s coming from the third deck," he observed. "It can’t be that wiring." Grabbing a fire extinguisher, Tom leaped up the interior stairway of the plane. He ran head-on into a wide figure racing downward.
"Chow! What’s on fire?" The chef was coughing and choking as he tried to find his way down the steps, his eyes streaming with tears from the smoke.
"Lemme out!"
"Is it the galley?"
I don’t know if this is a copyright violation. Are these books in the public domain? It’s obviously plagiarism, but who cares? Two football fields worth of the Amazon rain forest disappear every second and a like amount of bad fan fiction is uploaded to the internet. The question is: Does this even qualify as fan fiction? I don’t think it even qualifies as a rewrite. LesterR 01:39, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
An anon changed the text from the top version to the bottom. Why? - Will Beback 21:07, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I am the person responsible for the Tom Swift Lives fanfic site, and I thank Mr. Beback (who isn't me) and others for trying to make available a convenient link to it. The site explicitly credits the holder of copyright; and (as a "transformative work" identified as "parody") fully complies with statutory regulations and court precedent. Scott Dickerson
Hello to all "Tom Swift". I offer apology as I do not wish to aggrieve but comments not within applied channels on personal negative comments are deleted. Permit me to say that one should argue facts and not speak about personalities. This is very bad form. Matters respecting personal grievance with another are not for this column. Wossan Kau of Malaysia batanol
I feel the links to the years (ex. 1935) are valid and helpful to put things in perspective. As such, I think they should remain. After all, they certainly aren't hurting anything. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.236.54.99 ( talk • contribs)
Always controversial, and no denigration of previous efforts is intended. I've added some info and tried to give a better "flow" and some parallel formatting. I concur that the year links are unnecessary and more distracting than useful, though I haven't taken the time to de-link them. Someone might consider adding a few pix, especially to the Tom Jr. section; the Graham Kaye covers are classics. -Scott Dickerson
Not sure why the cover sample for "Tom Swift and His Motor Cycle" was removed by someone, but these covers are not under copyright and are surely relevant. I'd urge one for each series.
Someone might like to give parallel character lists for the series lacking them. And I believe there is now some detail available on TSV.
Mr. Kau's comments above are well-taken. -Scott Dickerson
Of a full paragraph acknowledging Wossan Kau's comments on the appropriate tenor for this discussion page, he has chosen to remove all but one sentence (above), and has characterized the rest as a "diatribe." I find this confusing, as I presumed I was merely expressing agreement with his stated recommendation and noting that (considering his experiences re the "Tom Swift community," which were shared with me in some detail at the time, with appropriate documentation) his attitude was all the more praiseworthy. I also am confused by the discrepancy between the attitude expressed in his comments on the reason for his deletion (viewable in "history"), and the principles he enunciated not long ago on his blog-site. But rather than go back and forth on it, I'll contact you, Wossan, by your e-mail for some mutual clarification. I gather this sort of "working it out" is the preferred Wiki process.
Lest it be forgot, the original relevance of these matters to the discussion of the Tom Swift article was to challenge the editing practices of one individual, whose identity is well-known and much commented upon despite his attempts at self-concealment. I don't regard the justifications he has repeatedly given as adequate. My understanding is that Wikipedia is for information and usefulness. Issues of "who should really get the credit" are basically private disputes: what counts is making the information available. Any disagreement on that?
Separately from Mr. Kau's comments, I'll state what I presume is unobjectionable: that honest, signed, above-board discussion is preferable to anonymous, pseudonymous, or puppeted contributions. Like Mr. Kau, I provide my (real) name in connection with any and all my contributions to Wiki. I hope those who choose otherwise will permit a civil question: why?-- 67.101.86.15 02:18, 24 June 2006 (UTC)Scott Dickerson
Have we a Phyllis Newton fan amongst us? Okay--"and nothing more" was too much a personal opinion (and a bit snide). But I will ask for an explanation of the change to my characterization of "Miss Trent" in the TSII section. The point is that she is given essentially no personal characteristics other than "efficient," is the only Swift Enterprises recurring female employee, and has a very-50's stereotyped role. I'm not criticizing the series on that basis, just bidding those who seek out the article to consider in a bit of depth what a "boys series" of the era incorporates. (But I may be jumping to conclusions as to your rationale.)-Scott Dickerson -- 67.101.86.15 16:32, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
I'll see if I can track down the TASER and Wozniac cites: first is from my memory of a news article, second is "somewhere" in Google-land.
This is now a sterling article! Well done. The Toms would be proud. -Scott Dickerson -- 72.245.1.234 16:31, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I'd be bold, but here's something I am unequipped to do. Rather than having the MOTOR CYCLE cover twice, how about replacing the first one with another (AIR SHIP is neat)?
Also--how about a cover sample and character list for those series lacking same? Yes, even TSV. -Scott Dickerson -- 72.245.1.234 17:31, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, for one thing those covers are still under copyright - as are some of the covers that already appear in the article. You seem pretty eager for other people to do your work for you too! MookiesDad 18:31, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I won't be a jerk and just revert. Please tell me why the link to a new juvenile series discussion group--which so far consists almost entirely of Tom Swift threads--is irrelevant. -Scott Dickerson -- 67.101.86.72 19:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
The board in question is not specifically a Tom Swift board and therefore is not relevant to this entry.
Most are just for better "flow". I delinked all years (except the first for each titles list), as they promise greater specific relevance than they actually provide. Still recommend changing first Tom Swift cover pic.-Scott Dickerson 67.101.86.72 17:44, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I reverted this as there was no consensus reached (and I happen to think the year links are useful!) MookiesDad 20:01, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
The years links allow readers to put the stories in perspective with their historical milieu, and anyway, how are they hurting you? As far as I'm concerned, the sweeping deletions that you make to this page without any consensus ARE vandalism. This isn't your private site where you would be free to do as you please. As to anything that you posted that has gone missing (which you stated were "minor changes;years delinked;article link added-SD" - hardly "a lot" as you stated) since I reverted your vandalism, you can always add it again - but leave those years alone, dagnabbit! MookiesDad 18:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps I was naive to take seriously the call for "consensus." I've offered to discuss specifics, but I gather you're more interested in peripheral things--like my personality--than in issues relative to page content, MD. I'll only take the time to respond to questions regarding various changes, or objections that are more than "shut up and get lost." I choose to take this seriously, not as some sort of competition. At any rate, I'm in touch with administrators on these matters. Meanwhile, I guess we're going to waste time going back and forth until the page is blocked for editing. But it seems that's the process. Scott Dickerson Doxmyth 01:17, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
I know it's probably a bit late to be getting in on this, but as I looked to the Wiki for Tom Swift info, and I was for the most part satisfied with my experience in doing that, I think a few words may be appropriate here. First off, I must say, that I just finished reading Tom Swift and his Motorcycle (the one that started it all) which the Gutenberg project has so generously provided (first I hit up Google books, and thought that I was out of luck)... and must admit that I am left wondering why this might have been taken off of the list. In any case, I would say, that from MY point of view (someone who is coming into this with very LITTLE knowledge of Tom Swift) I don't see much of a problem with the edits as long as all the original info is still there. I mean, this is a big enough DEAL to some people, that I would think you guys would be willing to get together over this, maybe share a few beers or whatnot, and work things out, instead of squabbling over this where the really 'not so hardcore' Tom Swift people will see this and maybe get the wrong idea (like all this was somehow Tom's fault or something, eh?). The expense that the people at Gutenberg seem to have already gone to, just to make this AVAILABLE in its original, unadulterated form, to me, tends to justify expecting you guys to do this at least (I mean, like with the star trek people- they dress up and get together and have CONVENTIONS for crying out loud. Come on)
My real reason for being here is actually to do with the 3rd Tom Swift series (the Sci-Fi one). I was wondering if anyone here had ANY leads as to how I can get ahold of episodes 12 and 13 [Chaos on Earth, and Microworld respectively], as the info here seems to just say that they were 'unpublished', and I can remember a time when I would have KILLED to get my hands on those. I thought that this seems like it is getting SOME attention at least, and a nudge in the right direction would be very much appreciated here. Peace, guys —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
5bCA62g4tPa (
talk •
contribs) 17:44, February 20, 2007 (UTC)
This [personal attack removed, please read as 'editor' instead] continues to insert his "predecessors" section despite the fact that there is a) no connection whatsoever to Tom Swift, b) is entirely made up of conjecture, supposition, surmise and opinion which is directly contraindicated by all Wiki guidelines and c) is irrelevant. Additionally, he continues to promote his Tom Swift fan fiction site in the External Links section despite the fact that the site contains absolutely NO information on any of the various series. Furthermore Mr. Dickerson refuses to log in under his purported user name (Doxmyth) so that his "edits" can be tracked. IMHO this bad faith editing is a subtle form of vandalism and I ask Mr. Dickerson to cease and desist. MookiesDad 00:21, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Why was this section restored? It contains nothing but a dead link to a person not even remotely connected to the Tom Swift books. MookiesDad 02:35, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
The section on "predecessors" asserts three things: (1) That Jules Verne wrote popular invention fiction in the 19th Century; (2) That Luis Senarens wrote such fiction, in the form of popular boys' series, in America in the 19th Century; (3) That some titles of the Senarens books, and the continuation of his Frank Reade stories under the "Jr." rubric, foreshadowed the Tom Swift series. To substantiate #1, see the Wikipedia article on Jules Verne. For #'s 2 and 3, please refer to: "Explorers of The Infinite" by Sam Moskowitz (Meridian Books, 1963; LCCCN#63-8778), Chapter 7; see also "Tom Swift & Co." by John T. Dizer, Jr., Ph.D. (McFarland & Co., Inc., 1982; ISBN 0-89950-024-2), in toto but specifically Chapter 10, Stratemeyer and Science Fiction, which references Senarens and the Frank Reade stories (and similar boys' series of the era).
As to the question of relevance, this will always be somewhat subjective, of course. In my opinion as an editor, the Tom Swift books and character are significant in their keeping alive the tradition of "invention fiction" that originated in the 19th Century. As indicated by the references to Wozniak and the TASER, this is a phenomenon that gives the books a certain distinction, as compared to, say, The Rover Boys or Frank Merriwell (or Harry Potter). The facts may be more aptly expressed--which is what Wiki editing strives to do--but I would argue that the section is truthful, noncontroversial, informative, pertinent to the article--and brief.
I await the counterargument to these justifications.
Regarding the link to my fan fiction site (first placed in the article by someone else without my knowledge), I have added a brief sentence noting the existence of net groups and activity, including the existence of "some" fan fiction, to make clear that the link is tied-in to the general subject (which does include various mentions of the popularity of the books/character, further substantiated by the existence of such groups and sites). As we link to dedicated information sites and discussion groups, a link to the only Swift FanFic group of which I am aware seems not out of place, and is a convenience for the reader/inquirer. (The site does not give my name, does not sell anything, and does not track or "capture" visitors in any way.)
I apologize for the accidental deletion of the one title. Good it was caught.
I yield the floor to MookiesDad. -Scott Dickerson Doxmyth 02:40, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Furthermore Tom Swift fan fiction is non-canonical, usually bad, possibly illegal and, once again, immaterial to this article. Wikipedia is not a place for you to promote your non-informational web site, regardless of how good your intentions are. The body of the article exists to present the reader with fact, not opinion, conjecture, speculation or surmise (that oughta cover it) and your section is all that. Sure Stratemeyer may have been influenced by the people and things you mention but have you done any research into whether or not that actually is true? If so please list your citations. Quoting the venerable John Dizer's speculation does not a fact make. MookiesDad 02:52, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Just to clarify the exact subject, the disputed paragraph nowhere claims "influence". The intent is to very briefly provide the setting in which the "invention story" developed, no particular theories being advanced. To note that something "foreshadows" is not to advance a causal hypothesis, but merely to point to a precedent similarity that may prove relevant. It's not clear to me how this section can be "read" as deprecating the work of more recent investigators. If you're contending that current scholarship renders even the modest assertions of the paragraph questionable, MookiesDad, here's your chance to present that data--as you urge, factual data, not opinion, with suitable citations from published works (as I understand that Wiki does not allow the use of unpublished materials).
A second question: to what degree, and in what way, are the "workings of the Syndicate" an important element to the improving of this article? Your take on this, MookiesDad.
My case for the relevance of fan fiction to this article was advanced in the couple sentences MookiesDad has removed from the overview section. The heading for the article is "TOM SWIFT", and I see no obvious restriction on the scope of content to the published books. There is also the character, and what the character (specifically) may represent in culture, society, and history. Is it not informative (rather than disinformative) to present and substantiate the idea that the Tom Swift character--older versions as well as the newest--does have a certain "fandom" in existence? The existence of informational sites, discussion groups, and fan fiction are evidence thereof: the last especially, I would argue. In an earlier edit I characterized the extent of TS fandom as "small," but that's only a widely-held impression, not something I can substantiate. I'm content to see that comment dropped.
This is separate from the question of whether there should be a link to my own fanfic website. As I'm obviously biased in its favor, and MookiesDad has expressed, above, strongly negative views on fan fiction in general, someone more neutral might like to weigh in.
I do think "promote" is a misleading way to describe the rather bland inclusion of a link.
I'll take a moment here to apologize to MookiesDad and others: my rapid-fire restorations added fuel to a developing edit war, contrary to Wiki guidelines. I misunderstood "revert" as referring to whole-article reverting. I'll make no further article edits until others have had a chance to discuss.
The year-links remain an unresolved subject for discussion.
A possible route to compromise, MookiesDad. What if we agree to include a "predecessors" section, but with you writing the content?
Overall, and despite my edits, this is a good and informative article. -Scott Dickerson Doxmyth 16:18, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
2) The "years" links certainly aren't hurting anything and can be helpful, No reason at all to delete them
3) Predecessors - If you can find anything with a proven connection as an influence on Tom Swift otherwise the section is so pointless as to be completely useless. MookiesDad 01:45, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
As a casual Tom Swift observer, I simply HAVE to add something to this. Perhaps on both sides. I must say, that I WAS, in fact, under the impression at first, that Tom Swift was the first serialized story of its kind. And the Frank Reade information was very much appreciated when I did, in fact, look further into this (although I have found the Frank Reade works somewhat harder to come by... if at all. Not to even MENTION the fact that they are, apparently, REAL). Seeing how this type of information is somewhat hard to come by elsewhere (Google for example) I would very much like to see this info preserved here in one form or another (if anything, just so as NOT to be accused of misleading the innocent Tom Swift observer into thinking that this was the FIRST of its kind. This to me seems relevant just because some people will ASSUME that this was the case, as I did at first) But then on the other hand, the dates... I very much think that they should be included as well. As much as they MAY be deceiving as to what ACTUALLY happened and when, for the most part, the general public, who may or may not have an interest in ever looking this up, would, I think, appreciate in some cases, having the DATE that they actually might already have ACCESS TO as a reference point being referenced here as well. And any ADDITIONAL infos would, I am sure, be very much appreciated by us. One aside that might be a reason for still including this... I have noticed the apparently close coincidence of the first Tom Swift publication, and the foundation of the BSA (boy scouts of America). While I am sure that drawing any conclusions here would be very much criticized, I think that things of this NATURE may in fact be of much interest to someone who is, say, going far enough out of their way to research this AT ALL. I thank you both in your efforts in striving towards an ideal, complete, quality reference in regards to this [Tom Swift] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 5bCA62g4tPa ( talk • contribs) 19:24, February 20, 2007 (UTC)
A question was raised above about where else I have edited. I have participated in not only this article, but also the following: Tom Swift, Jr., Rick Brant, Time Dilation, and Frank Reade. I don't recall whether I made any edits to the TSIII or TSIV articles; but if I did, I think they were minor. Most of this was prior to my registering with Wiki, though I did state my name, Scott Dickerson (SD). I don't necessarily endorse my earliest edits made as a newbie, and assume some have been subsequently reworked. Doxmyth 17:03, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Before I engage in further editing of this article, I'd like to solicit input from any others who may be interested in the various unresolved issues: (1) utility and appropriateness of the links to individual years; (2) utility and appropriateness of the "Predecessors" section (text available in History page for this article); (3) utility and appropriateness of the sentence removed the from "Series Overview" concerning Tom Swift fandom, as quoted above; (4) utility and appropriateness of a link to the "Tom Swift Lives!" fan fiction site. It would be particularly useful if persons wishing to add comment would look over the discussion page above, as various relevant points have been presented. Thanks all. -Scott Dickerson Doxmyth 22:15, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
My proposed and disputed Predecessors paragraph merely offers a few factual statements and does not touch upon any theory of "influence". However--and relevant to the discussion of having a link in this article to Frank Reade--I did run across the opinion of a noted private Tom Swift researcher, Thomas R. Ippolito, which he published in a small booklet call Blueprint (June, 2002--Issue Number 5). In an article entitled A Blueprint for Tom Swift, he states: "...several of Stratemeyer's most popular series are strikingly reminiscent of ones that appeared before the turn of the century. Tom Swift is no exception. Stratemeyer was not the first to introduce, or even popularize, the 'boy inventor' theme. In fact, by the time his first science and invention story...was published, the series that undoubtedly served as the inspiration for Tom Swift, Frank Reade Jr. had been in print for nine years." As this constitutes original research, it cannot be used as formal substantiation for a discussion of influences in the article, should anyone care to insert one. But Mr. Ippolito is well-known for his studies of the Stratemeyer Syndicate, and I thought his comment interesting enough to quote here in the article talk page. -Scott Dickerson Doxmyth 22:24, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Respectfully, somewhat in his defense, I have tried to look through all of the links associated with your Tom Swift page, and, especially in conjunction with the Stratemeyer writeup, am left with the impression that this WAS, in fact, the first of its kind. In all fairness I think that this may be most appropriately ADJUSTED in SOME WAY so that this is NOT the impression that I, as a casual Tom Swift observer am left with (as a result of the fact that I came to Wikipedia for my informational needs)
As the solicitation of outside input and comment (at Wiki Request for Comment as well as here) has produced no result to date, I have resumed editing this article. In deference to objections and concerns, I have modified my edits to clarify their purpose, and to make certain that no claim of influence is suggested. -Scott Dickerson Doxmyth 18:05, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
As the recent reverter, Noumenes, has not provided here his reasons, I have restored the deleted material, my own reasons being amply covered above. To address the last two comments preceding this one: (a) I have no issue with removing the fan fiction link, but need more of a sense of the views of the Wiki community before I acquiesce, as I think it useful to those who seek out this page for a comprehensive view of what is available in the contemporary Tom Swift "world"; (b) referring now not to the link, but just to the language in the text that mentions sites and fan fiction, you have discussed your opinions of my presumed motives, but not whether the text itself is useful, accurate, and relevant; (c) such phrasing as "attempt to justify," "total violation," "vanity site," "doesn't like to play by them," "merits (or lack thereof)" are uncivil, personally abusive, and fall short of Wiki's asume good faith policy. I do not regard "reverted by numerous editors" to be an accurate characterization. -Scott Dickerson Doxmyth 18:47, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
"There's no end to this argument", said Tom listlessly. While for the most part I don't consider changes that are to be made to the main body of text to be completely justified (at least not 'in place' of what was already there), I would think that we could maybe COMPROMISE here, and at least give SD a link. Maybe create a new link section that is separate from the others, but still comes up? I, as a Tom Swift third series fan, very much sympathize with the cause... to ME, it IS relevant. (Put yourself in my place- episodes 12 and 13 HAVE been written, but we're NOT going to give them to the likes of YOU; at ANY price. Ha) And I am just like, what? Give me SOMETHING. Come on. You guys act like you are catering to a group of f***ing coneheads here or something, and not actual FANS that want MORE of this. Compromise. Please
Doxmyth continues to complain that other editors should "assume good faith" about his repeated insertion of this link and the lead-in text in the body of the article. To quote from a Wiki essay on this topic, "the more a given user invokes assume good faith as a defense, the lower the probability that said user is acting in good faith." Assuming good faith does not mean that edits cannot be criticized. Doxmyth's complaints about incivility are not credible. Other editors are not required to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary, such as someone insisting on inserting a link to a web site that he owns and maintains, which is discouraged by Wiki. Pak434 16:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
As the newly converted are often more eloquent than anyone else, I'd like to urge those with concerns about the appearance of a link to the Tom Swift Lives! site to have a discussion with MookiesDad, previously a staunch opponent of the link to have a discussion with MookiesDad, previously a staunch opponent of the link. Now you can see, at The Hardy Boys, the following text: The stories have inspired some authors to create their own Hardy Boys fan fiction. This, a near quote of my own attempted edit, was inserted by-- MookiesDad. On 23 September 2006. In other words (if the point is obscure), he's doing on one page the exact same thing he's decrying here, in terms of (irrelevant? self-serving?) references to fan fiction. (Also note that he has tolerated the link to Hardy Detective Agency Fanfiction for quite some time, despite his not infrequent visits to the page for editing.) And as we're told above, with authority, that all these consensus-agglomerating editors are in fact the same person (that equals 1, if you're counting), a person who now endorses and promotes fan fiction on boys book series pages, it seems the opposition has dissolved.
Which leaves the Wiki-issue raised above by "Pak434". Namely the use of sockpuppets to attempt to subvert the Wiki process. As so abundantly demonstrated herein. Doxmyth 00:19, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
You've now provided the detailed information I need. - Scott Dickerson Doxmyth 17:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
According to Wiki's own article on the subject, Edisonade is a product of the Victorian and Edwardian eras. King Edward died in the spring of 1910, before or at the very beginning of the relase of the original TS series. Few writers on the subject would claim Tom Swift as being a science-fiction series (unlike the Stratemeyer Syndicate's " Great Marvel" series which has definite elements of sci-fi). It is primarily an adventure series, with the adventure invariably tied in to Tom's latest invention. By all the criteria specified in the Wiki Edisonade article, Tom Swift does NOT qualify as Edisonade, therefore including that in a "See Also" section is not credible. SuperDuperMan 01:34, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
See also [3], including comments on racism in Edisonade. jesup 15:23, 23 October 2006 (UTC)Ah, the edisonade, that most basic and American sub-genre, in which a (usually) young, (always) American inventor uses his (never her) ingenuity to save his country, and the world if necessary, from alien invaders, evil superscientists, Chinese dacoits, women of loose morals, and anything else the author can think of to throw at him. The Skylark books by Doc Smith are edisonades, as are, of course, the Tom Swift books.
Ok, after getting interested in this, I spent a while working on the Edisonade article. The original assertion in that article and repeated here, that it's limited to victorian and edwardian times, is not supported by primary or reliable sources, including several direct definitions from the person who invented the term. The Edisonade article is now much better and properly <ref>ed. By the definition of the term, as given both by the terms inventor and numerous other references, Edisonade applies well past Edwardian times, and Tom Swift certainly falls into that category. SuperDuperMan - while Antaeus was wrong to keep trying to force it in with edit-wars; you're now equally to blame for doing the same thing to keep it out and making threats that you "will not allow" it to be added. I say: put it back, in the text (as I did it last), no See Also, no Frank Reade. IMHO. jesup 17:23, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Personally, reading the description by Clute of Edisonade and the other people who've used it since, and having read many Tom Swift Jr books (and recently given the one Tom Swift Jr I still had and the Tom Swift Motor Cycle book to my niece), I'd classify them as matching the term to a T. Not even a maybe.
When I first started looking, I was all ready to agree with you because Anateus (sp) was being a jerk and edit-warring with you, and I took your description (victorian and edwardian) as being correct. Then I looked at the Edisonade page, and then I went looking for references to back up my claim you were right - and I found references that say you're wrong in this case. You can say you think it's a bad term, or that you think that Clute is a moron for defining it that way, or that it should be restricted - but that's not an argument for Wikipedia, we're documenting things, not arguing for people to change the usage or definition of terms. And so I rewrote my comment before I posted it here. jesup 23:37, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
IMHO based on the definition given for Edisonade, the original Tom Swift books could, I stress could, possibly be put into that genre but the later series (Junior and up) do not meet the qualification for that genre. I freely admit that I have never heard of that term being used before, despite having been reading, researching and collecting the Swift books for almost 50 years. FWDixon 21:43, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
This editor repeatedly inserts links in the "See Also" section that have absolutely no connection to Tom Swift. He refuses to discuss his reasons for doing so. It's clear Feldspar has never read a Tom Swift book otherwise he would not be insisting on his off-topic links. SuperDuperMan 00:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
On 19 October 2006 I called attention to the fact that user IDs 71.125.234.14, SuperDuperMan, MookiesDad, and Fwdixon all appeared to be the same person and that this person appeared to be using sockpuppets to broaden a legitimate concensus that had emerged against the insertion of a link and text that Doxmyth has wanted to place in the Tom Swift and Tom Swift Jr. articles. See 16:37, 19 October 2006 Pak434 (Talk | contribs) (→Discussion of further edit work by Scott Dickerson) . Instead of Doxmyth applauding the fact that I pointed this out in the spirit of fair play, even though I strongly oppose his repeated insertion of the disputed link and text in these articles, he has since actually placed a Socksuspect on my user page claiming that I am a sock puppet of Fwdixon et al. This defies reason. In fact, he has indiscriminately done this on the user page of everyone who has opposed his desire to link his fan fiction web site from these articles. This can only be viewed as a form of hysteria arising from the fact that a consensus has formed that he should not be permitted to use these articles to promote his web site. Pak434 18:39, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
My apology to other good faith editors for requesting admin intervention on this article but this user has been engaging in edit warring, flagrant sockpuppetry, repeated personal attacks, removal of legitimate warning messages from his various user talk pages, prank retalitory warnings on other people’s user page, and at least one 3RR violation over the past month. This demonstrated a brazen disregard for the rules of conduct governing Wikipedia and it was apparent that his disruptive behavior was not going to stop. So the edit war is over for the time being but the issue of this user’s conduct still has to be addressed. Pak434 16:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
In my experience, some of the most productive discussion goes on when a page has been protected, so I'm not too disheartened by the current protection. Let's take this opportunity to discuss changes that we think should be made, and see if we can get consensus for some of them by the time the protection is lifted.
One that I'd like to propose to start with is removing the Moonlighting reference from the "Modern influence and references" section. Considering how many shows on TV have made "pop culture references" their main raison d'etre I really don't think the fact that Tom Swift was once referenced by one such show really measures up to having an asteroid named after you or being named as an inspiration by a computer pioneer. Especially as it doesn't seem it was even a well-targeted reference; while that point in the series was around the time I stopped watching Moonlighting, I don't remember anything indicating that the character in question was an inventor, which is what Tom Swift is famous for being. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:11, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
A majority of editors have agreed that the Edisonade reference is accurate and useful. It should remain. It's true that there is some redundant information in the article. Maybe the "Series Overview" section should be deleted. The text that appears there could be placed in the appropriate sections for each of the different series. The first sentence could be placed in the Tom Swift Jr. section, the second sentence could be placed in the section for the third Tom Swift series, etc. Also the separate article on the fourth Tom Swift series is not needed. All or most of the information in it is covered here. Pak434 14:25, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
I think we should also look seriously at severe trimming of the External links section. "Severe" as in, the only one I'd positively identify as deserving to stay is the Project Gutenberg link. The link to the American Heritage article should actually be converted into a reference, since it supports the claims that Swift might have been based on Glenn Curtiss and also gives some good information on who the writers behind the books were. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:07, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
OK, I've made this a sub-heading because I think it needs to be addressed not just in one manifestation, but in basic principle. One seeming constant of Wikipedia is that fans think the perceptions and activities of fans are more encyclopedic than they actually are. Which is why, unless we find some truly significant fan activity to discuss, I think that at most we should have a single sentence along the lines of "Tom Swift fandom continues even today, with fans collecting the books and creating their own fanfiction for the series" and no more. And there's no need for links to anyone's fanfic site, either; in order to be fair about it, we'd need to pick a truly representative sample, the kind that would come up on a Google search. Which there's no reason for us to do, since the reader could just do that same Google search themselves. -- Antaeus Feldspar 04:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
We are having a problem with the definition of "consensus". Consensus means a general agreement among a majority of the editors or agreement of most of the participants. By any other definition there would have to be unanimity and content disputes would rarely if ever be resolved. In the case of both Edisonade and fan fiction lone dissenters have refused to accept the view of a majority of editors after prolonged debate. Filibustering to this point is disruptive. Pak434 10:41, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
The source cited for TASER being an acronym for Tom A Swift's electric rifle is incorrect. However, I emailed TASER and they did verify that as correct. (Incidenctly, the OED left out the A). Would the person who unlocks this page could please change that citation? 24.18.171.52 16:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
should the "extraterrestrials" link be changed to link to Extraterrestrial_life_in_popular_culture?-- Kent Witham 03:30, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
What's going on here is, I think, a perfect example of why the whole Wikipedia concept simply does not work. Cokerwr 23:39, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Pardon my intrusion--I'm new at this--but here's an extremely useful extenal link (by the way, it seems as though the current list of external links may not be accurate):
http://www.tomswift.info/homepage/oldindex.html
75.18.216.31 09:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC)Mark A. Snyder
All of the other links seem to work fine. The link you gave above can indeed be pared down--in fact, the one shown doesn't exactly work, but if you pare it to simply
http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/it/1990/2/1990_2_24.shtml
then that works. By the way, although the new external link I gave does send one to the TS Sr homepage, at the bottom of the page is a link to an equally extensive TS Jr section of the same website. Mark Snyder 21:49, 26 February 2007 (UTC)Mark A. Snyder
Quite by accident, I found another useful external link, also from American Heritage; this one is quite comprehensive...
http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1976/1/1976_1_64.shtml
Mark Snyder 22:39, 27 February 2007 (UTC)Mark A. Snyder
Two of the Tom Swift Jr. titles are in Project Gutenberg now if you follow the link. The link says specifically Tom Swift Sr. Gweeks 20:05, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
{{Editprotected}} Please change the "Tom Swift article: The perfect inventor" external link at the bottom of the page to
http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1976/1/1976_1_64.shtml
since the link which is there now is incorrect. Thanks! Mark Snyder 17:50, 16 March 2007 (UTC)Mark A. Snyder
Article has links to two sites owned and operated by the same person, listed here as: “The Unofficial Tom Swift Home Page” and “Fan Forum For All Swift Fans”. The latter seems to violate the asserted rule regarding refs or links for “fandom” or “fan activity” about this character. Other such refs have been regularly removed.
If this is not a problem now, the cited “Fan Forum” is a moderated group closed to viewing by nonmembers. As it is cross-linked from the owner’s other site anyway, I suggest replacing this link with one to an active group on the same topic:
This group does not require membership and is moderated by a committee of five persons well known in this area, and appears to be more active at present.
Wiki guidelines state the following:
If you have a conflict of interest, you should avoid or exercise great caution when:
1. editing articles related to you, your organization, or its competitors 2. participating in deletion discussions about articles related to your organization or its competitors 3. linking to the Wikipedia article or website of your organization
Pak434 02:34, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
The article page is locked, so this would need to be addressed by a sysop. (Given the history of edit warring, I do not recommend unlocking the page.) 67.101.87.172 18:35, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I hope that visitors to this discussion page, admins or not, will take some time to read it over with care. The discussions have been interesting as examples of how people approach the editing process on Wikipedia. Pak434 prefers to address motive in urging the rejection of a proposed change. I offered several perfectly rational reasons (persuasive or not) in support of my suggestion; those reasons were ignored in favor of repetitive ad hominem commentary on my putative "bias" in making them. Why? These are encyclopedia articles intended to be of use to inquirers. All that matters here, on this page, are whether the reasons given in support of a proposed change outweigh the reasons given in support of not making it. The basis for a rule against "bias by editors" is not that motive inherently and intrinsically renders a suggestion bad, but rather that it tempts one to cut corners with regard to justification. Ultimately, comments about "hypocrisy", "bias", "self-promotion", "crybaby-ism", or whether one is Doxmyth, FWDixon, or Pak434, are inflamatory and without relevance to the task of editing. The merit of the suggestion is all that matters.
And now, for all that, we appear to have a consensus. As stated by Pak434: "The easiest solution to this problem would be to delete all disputed links." Agreed: in fact, it was one of my offered alternatives. Pak434 and I concur in asking that an admin delete the link labeled “Fan Forum For All Swift Fans”. 69.3.132.105 18:01, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
First, see my apology above. No "I contain worlds"--I just screwed up.
Inasmuch as the issue was raised above, I am: Doxmyth, Scott Dickerson, 67.101.87.172 and 69.3.130.153. I do indeed live in the LA area, as do a few other people. I have recently chosen to sign in using the 4 tildas, which is not a violation of any Wiki rule, in the (so far vain) hope that my comments will elicit responses based upon their content and merit, not who I happen to be, a hobbyist-writer of nonpublished Tom Swift fan fiction that precisely one individual finds worthy of scorn. I have not pretended to be a disinterested visitor or anyone else. I am not this Lester guy or 5bCA62g4tPa (is this also an LA server?) and knew nothing about the latter's post. It is my belief, which no one else has to accept but which I and some others consider well-founded, that most of the other recent commenters here, Pak434 included (but not Mark Snyder, Antaeus, or Bryant), are the same person--an active Wiki editor who is the owner/operator of numerous sites about juvenile series books, including the one here that is to be removed, who is perhaps best known under the moniker FWDixon. (Concerned about motive? Don't ask me.) Except for my "Tom Swift Lives!" fanfic site and its subsites (none are discussion groups), I neither own nor operate nor moderate any site or group. And none of these things should be worthy of mention except insofar as a claim of consensus rests upon the participation of such unacknowledged aliases. In which case the comments are not to be deleted, but the commenters count as one only.
Do count me as one only.
The basis of my original recommendation remains unaddressed, subsequent comments focusing on who I am, my ulterior motives, and in effect whether I am worthy to participate here. Thus it shall be unto eternity, I guess. The prof above who zinged the Wiki process and its shortcomings has a valid point.
"I concur with this suggestion only with the stipulation that I made previously -- that it be recognized that Wiki is not meant to be used as a vehicle to promote specific websites or fandoms, particularly one versus another, and that links to such sites be strictly prohibited." If one were to take this comment literally, the proposal would ban all links on Wikipedia that lead to a site--which is all of them, of course--given that every website is a "specific" one, and the mere presence of a link can always be construed as promotion. I mention this to demonstrate that I take seriously the content and words of my fellow editors, whether they are real people or not.
So, sysops, we do have a consensus here among--actually, between--the major participants. Somebody please delete the link in question. And then re-lock the page lest it, or something worse, reappear.
And while you're at it, I ask that you do one more thing. Can this talk page be protected in such a fashion that anything posted to date cannot be deleted? (Please check History to recover what has been deleted, subsequent to this moment of my posting, in anticipation of the granting of this request.) I am not suggesting that the page be locked to further contributions--only that what has gone before remain completely visible, to preserve easy access for anyone who wishes to review the situation. Seems to me that all of us, myself included, need to be accountable for our remarks. SD 69.3.132.105 19:04, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I certainly never expected an administrator to respond to "repeated IP vandalism" by locking on the vandal's version. And having just faced a threat of blocking for trying to preserve the consensus version, I am wondering if there is any damned point to all of this. It simply points up a key flaw in the Wikipedia model: despite all that is said about the content being determined by consensus, what the software really rewards is a refusal to play by the rules. Anyone think there's any point anymore? Or do we just chalk this article up as a failure of Wikipedia? -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:17, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
An editor removed this external link:
with the edit summary:
Could the editor please explain how copyrights are violated at the site? It appears to be original fan fiction. - Will Beback 21:41, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Out of curiosity I read part of the first story on this site and I have to say that it’s a stretch to call these "original". For example, all of the text and dialogue in bold from the following excerpt was taken word for word from the original book.
Several days went by and still there was no trace of the thief. Tom had plunged into work on the Flying Lab, overseeing countless precision jobs on which the crew’s lives would depend once they were airborne. This did not keep him from pulling out of his pocket many times a day a copy of the symbols inscribed on the strange missile that had fallen from the sky. Solving the mysterious message it seemed to convey had become a game between Tom and his father, both of them aided at times by Enterprises mathematicians who assumed a new security encryption system was being tested. At dinner each evening they would compare notes about the results of their calculations.
"Any progress, Tom?" Mr. Swift finally asked one night, enjoying their friendly contest. Just that day Tom had computed the ratio of the diameters of two oval symbols, one smaller than the other, and concluded that the larger oval was meant to be Earth, the smaller one her neighboring planet Mars. The message could be from Martian scientists!
"Yes, Dad, I have one theory," Tom replied. "Those two overlapping circular shapes—they work out mathematically to represent this planet and Mars, encoding the difference between the polar and equatorial diameters."
"I came to the same conclusion through an entirely different chain of reasoning. At least we know that ‘somebody up there’ is trying to get an important message across to us." Mr. Swift laughed. "Well, we’re still running neck and neck in our race."
"I wish I had more time to work on the symbols," Tom continued. "But I’ll keep at them until we take off for the ionosphere."
Late one morning, after Tom had finished stowing some delicate instruments aboard the Sky Queen, he decided to check the blueprint of the gyrostabilizer caissons. He hurried down to the office and studied the detailed sheet a few moments. Some wiring would have to be changed to avert risk of fire.
As Tom came from the office, he stopped short. Looking up, be was horrified to see wisps of smoke curling from the air vents of the Flying Lab, just as he had imagined! Visions of disaster flashed through his mind.
"But it’s coming from the third deck," he observed. "It can’t be that wiring." Grabbing a fire extinguisher, Tom leaped up the interior stairway of the plane. He ran head-on into a wide figure racing downward.
"Chow! What’s on fire?" The chef was coughing and choking as he tried to find his way down the steps, his eyes streaming with tears from the smoke.
"Lemme out!"
"Is it the galley?"
I don’t know if this is a copyright violation. Are these books in the public domain? It’s obviously plagiarism, but who cares? Two football fields worth of the Amazon rain forest disappear every second and a like amount of bad fan fiction is uploaded to the internet. The question is: Does this even qualify as fan fiction? I don’t think it even qualifies as a rewrite. LesterR 01:39, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
An anon changed the text from the top version to the bottom. Why? - Will Beback 21:07, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I am the person responsible for the Tom Swift Lives fanfic site, and I thank Mr. Beback (who isn't me) and others for trying to make available a convenient link to it. The site explicitly credits the holder of copyright; and (as a "transformative work" identified as "parody") fully complies with statutory regulations and court precedent. Scott Dickerson
Hello to all "Tom Swift". I offer apology as I do not wish to aggrieve but comments not within applied channels on personal negative comments are deleted. Permit me to say that one should argue facts and not speak about personalities. This is very bad form. Matters respecting personal grievance with another are not for this column. Wossan Kau of Malaysia batanol
I feel the links to the years (ex. 1935) are valid and helpful to put things in perspective. As such, I think they should remain. After all, they certainly aren't hurting anything. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.236.54.99 ( talk • contribs)
Always controversial, and no denigration of previous efforts is intended. I've added some info and tried to give a better "flow" and some parallel formatting. I concur that the year links are unnecessary and more distracting than useful, though I haven't taken the time to de-link them. Someone might consider adding a few pix, especially to the Tom Jr. section; the Graham Kaye covers are classics. -Scott Dickerson
Not sure why the cover sample for "Tom Swift and His Motor Cycle" was removed by someone, but these covers are not under copyright and are surely relevant. I'd urge one for each series.
Someone might like to give parallel character lists for the series lacking them. And I believe there is now some detail available on TSV.
Mr. Kau's comments above are well-taken. -Scott Dickerson
Of a full paragraph acknowledging Wossan Kau's comments on the appropriate tenor for this discussion page, he has chosen to remove all but one sentence (above), and has characterized the rest as a "diatribe." I find this confusing, as I presumed I was merely expressing agreement with his stated recommendation and noting that (considering his experiences re the "Tom Swift community," which were shared with me in some detail at the time, with appropriate documentation) his attitude was all the more praiseworthy. I also am confused by the discrepancy between the attitude expressed in his comments on the reason for his deletion (viewable in "history"), and the principles he enunciated not long ago on his blog-site. But rather than go back and forth on it, I'll contact you, Wossan, by your e-mail for some mutual clarification. I gather this sort of "working it out" is the preferred Wiki process.
Lest it be forgot, the original relevance of these matters to the discussion of the Tom Swift article was to challenge the editing practices of one individual, whose identity is well-known and much commented upon despite his attempts at self-concealment. I don't regard the justifications he has repeatedly given as adequate. My understanding is that Wikipedia is for information and usefulness. Issues of "who should really get the credit" are basically private disputes: what counts is making the information available. Any disagreement on that?
Separately from Mr. Kau's comments, I'll state what I presume is unobjectionable: that honest, signed, above-board discussion is preferable to anonymous, pseudonymous, or puppeted contributions. Like Mr. Kau, I provide my (real) name in connection with any and all my contributions to Wiki. I hope those who choose otherwise will permit a civil question: why?-- 67.101.86.15 02:18, 24 June 2006 (UTC)Scott Dickerson
Have we a Phyllis Newton fan amongst us? Okay--"and nothing more" was too much a personal opinion (and a bit snide). But I will ask for an explanation of the change to my characterization of "Miss Trent" in the TSII section. The point is that she is given essentially no personal characteristics other than "efficient," is the only Swift Enterprises recurring female employee, and has a very-50's stereotyped role. I'm not criticizing the series on that basis, just bidding those who seek out the article to consider in a bit of depth what a "boys series" of the era incorporates. (But I may be jumping to conclusions as to your rationale.)-Scott Dickerson -- 67.101.86.15 16:32, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
I'll see if I can track down the TASER and Wozniac cites: first is from my memory of a news article, second is "somewhere" in Google-land.
This is now a sterling article! Well done. The Toms would be proud. -Scott Dickerson -- 72.245.1.234 16:31, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I'd be bold, but here's something I am unequipped to do. Rather than having the MOTOR CYCLE cover twice, how about replacing the first one with another (AIR SHIP is neat)?
Also--how about a cover sample and character list for those series lacking same? Yes, even TSV. -Scott Dickerson -- 72.245.1.234 17:31, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, for one thing those covers are still under copyright - as are some of the covers that already appear in the article. You seem pretty eager for other people to do your work for you too! MookiesDad 18:31, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I won't be a jerk and just revert. Please tell me why the link to a new juvenile series discussion group--which so far consists almost entirely of Tom Swift threads--is irrelevant. -Scott Dickerson -- 67.101.86.72 19:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
The board in question is not specifically a Tom Swift board and therefore is not relevant to this entry.
Most are just for better "flow". I delinked all years (except the first for each titles list), as they promise greater specific relevance than they actually provide. Still recommend changing first Tom Swift cover pic.-Scott Dickerson 67.101.86.72 17:44, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I reverted this as there was no consensus reached (and I happen to think the year links are useful!) MookiesDad 20:01, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
The years links allow readers to put the stories in perspective with their historical milieu, and anyway, how are they hurting you? As far as I'm concerned, the sweeping deletions that you make to this page without any consensus ARE vandalism. This isn't your private site where you would be free to do as you please. As to anything that you posted that has gone missing (which you stated were "minor changes;years delinked;article link added-SD" - hardly "a lot" as you stated) since I reverted your vandalism, you can always add it again - but leave those years alone, dagnabbit! MookiesDad 18:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps I was naive to take seriously the call for "consensus." I've offered to discuss specifics, but I gather you're more interested in peripheral things--like my personality--than in issues relative to page content, MD. I'll only take the time to respond to questions regarding various changes, or objections that are more than "shut up and get lost." I choose to take this seriously, not as some sort of competition. At any rate, I'm in touch with administrators on these matters. Meanwhile, I guess we're going to waste time going back and forth until the page is blocked for editing. But it seems that's the process. Scott Dickerson Doxmyth 01:17, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
I know it's probably a bit late to be getting in on this, but as I looked to the Wiki for Tom Swift info, and I was for the most part satisfied with my experience in doing that, I think a few words may be appropriate here. First off, I must say, that I just finished reading Tom Swift and his Motorcycle (the one that started it all) which the Gutenberg project has so generously provided (first I hit up Google books, and thought that I was out of luck)... and must admit that I am left wondering why this might have been taken off of the list. In any case, I would say, that from MY point of view (someone who is coming into this with very LITTLE knowledge of Tom Swift) I don't see much of a problem with the edits as long as all the original info is still there. I mean, this is a big enough DEAL to some people, that I would think you guys would be willing to get together over this, maybe share a few beers or whatnot, and work things out, instead of squabbling over this where the really 'not so hardcore' Tom Swift people will see this and maybe get the wrong idea (like all this was somehow Tom's fault or something, eh?). The expense that the people at Gutenberg seem to have already gone to, just to make this AVAILABLE in its original, unadulterated form, to me, tends to justify expecting you guys to do this at least (I mean, like with the star trek people- they dress up and get together and have CONVENTIONS for crying out loud. Come on)
My real reason for being here is actually to do with the 3rd Tom Swift series (the Sci-Fi one). I was wondering if anyone here had ANY leads as to how I can get ahold of episodes 12 and 13 [Chaos on Earth, and Microworld respectively], as the info here seems to just say that they were 'unpublished', and I can remember a time when I would have KILLED to get my hands on those. I thought that this seems like it is getting SOME attention at least, and a nudge in the right direction would be very much appreciated here. Peace, guys —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
5bCA62g4tPa (
talk •
contribs) 17:44, February 20, 2007 (UTC)
This [personal attack removed, please read as 'editor' instead] continues to insert his "predecessors" section despite the fact that there is a) no connection whatsoever to Tom Swift, b) is entirely made up of conjecture, supposition, surmise and opinion which is directly contraindicated by all Wiki guidelines and c) is irrelevant. Additionally, he continues to promote his Tom Swift fan fiction site in the External Links section despite the fact that the site contains absolutely NO information on any of the various series. Furthermore Mr. Dickerson refuses to log in under his purported user name (Doxmyth) so that his "edits" can be tracked. IMHO this bad faith editing is a subtle form of vandalism and I ask Mr. Dickerson to cease and desist. MookiesDad 00:21, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Why was this section restored? It contains nothing but a dead link to a person not even remotely connected to the Tom Swift books. MookiesDad 02:35, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
The section on "predecessors" asserts three things: (1) That Jules Verne wrote popular invention fiction in the 19th Century; (2) That Luis Senarens wrote such fiction, in the form of popular boys' series, in America in the 19th Century; (3) That some titles of the Senarens books, and the continuation of his Frank Reade stories under the "Jr." rubric, foreshadowed the Tom Swift series. To substantiate #1, see the Wikipedia article on Jules Verne. For #'s 2 and 3, please refer to: "Explorers of The Infinite" by Sam Moskowitz (Meridian Books, 1963; LCCCN#63-8778), Chapter 7; see also "Tom Swift & Co." by John T. Dizer, Jr., Ph.D. (McFarland & Co., Inc., 1982; ISBN 0-89950-024-2), in toto but specifically Chapter 10, Stratemeyer and Science Fiction, which references Senarens and the Frank Reade stories (and similar boys' series of the era).
As to the question of relevance, this will always be somewhat subjective, of course. In my opinion as an editor, the Tom Swift books and character are significant in their keeping alive the tradition of "invention fiction" that originated in the 19th Century. As indicated by the references to Wozniak and the TASER, this is a phenomenon that gives the books a certain distinction, as compared to, say, The Rover Boys or Frank Merriwell (or Harry Potter). The facts may be more aptly expressed--which is what Wiki editing strives to do--but I would argue that the section is truthful, noncontroversial, informative, pertinent to the article--and brief.
I await the counterargument to these justifications.
Regarding the link to my fan fiction site (first placed in the article by someone else without my knowledge), I have added a brief sentence noting the existence of net groups and activity, including the existence of "some" fan fiction, to make clear that the link is tied-in to the general subject (which does include various mentions of the popularity of the books/character, further substantiated by the existence of such groups and sites). As we link to dedicated information sites and discussion groups, a link to the only Swift FanFic group of which I am aware seems not out of place, and is a convenience for the reader/inquirer. (The site does not give my name, does not sell anything, and does not track or "capture" visitors in any way.)
I apologize for the accidental deletion of the one title. Good it was caught.
I yield the floor to MookiesDad. -Scott Dickerson Doxmyth 02:40, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Furthermore Tom Swift fan fiction is non-canonical, usually bad, possibly illegal and, once again, immaterial to this article. Wikipedia is not a place for you to promote your non-informational web site, regardless of how good your intentions are. The body of the article exists to present the reader with fact, not opinion, conjecture, speculation or surmise (that oughta cover it) and your section is all that. Sure Stratemeyer may have been influenced by the people and things you mention but have you done any research into whether or not that actually is true? If so please list your citations. Quoting the venerable John Dizer's speculation does not a fact make. MookiesDad 02:52, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Just to clarify the exact subject, the disputed paragraph nowhere claims "influence". The intent is to very briefly provide the setting in which the "invention story" developed, no particular theories being advanced. To note that something "foreshadows" is not to advance a causal hypothesis, but merely to point to a precedent similarity that may prove relevant. It's not clear to me how this section can be "read" as deprecating the work of more recent investigators. If you're contending that current scholarship renders even the modest assertions of the paragraph questionable, MookiesDad, here's your chance to present that data--as you urge, factual data, not opinion, with suitable citations from published works (as I understand that Wiki does not allow the use of unpublished materials).
A second question: to what degree, and in what way, are the "workings of the Syndicate" an important element to the improving of this article? Your take on this, MookiesDad.
My case for the relevance of fan fiction to this article was advanced in the couple sentences MookiesDad has removed from the overview section. The heading for the article is "TOM SWIFT", and I see no obvious restriction on the scope of content to the published books. There is also the character, and what the character (specifically) may represent in culture, society, and history. Is it not informative (rather than disinformative) to present and substantiate the idea that the Tom Swift character--older versions as well as the newest--does have a certain "fandom" in existence? The existence of informational sites, discussion groups, and fan fiction are evidence thereof: the last especially, I would argue. In an earlier edit I characterized the extent of TS fandom as "small," but that's only a widely-held impression, not something I can substantiate. I'm content to see that comment dropped.
This is separate from the question of whether there should be a link to my own fanfic website. As I'm obviously biased in its favor, and MookiesDad has expressed, above, strongly negative views on fan fiction in general, someone more neutral might like to weigh in.
I do think "promote" is a misleading way to describe the rather bland inclusion of a link.
I'll take a moment here to apologize to MookiesDad and others: my rapid-fire restorations added fuel to a developing edit war, contrary to Wiki guidelines. I misunderstood "revert" as referring to whole-article reverting. I'll make no further article edits until others have had a chance to discuss.
The year-links remain an unresolved subject for discussion.
A possible route to compromise, MookiesDad. What if we agree to include a "predecessors" section, but with you writing the content?
Overall, and despite my edits, this is a good and informative article. -Scott Dickerson Doxmyth 16:18, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
2) The "years" links certainly aren't hurting anything and can be helpful, No reason at all to delete them
3) Predecessors - If you can find anything with a proven connection as an influence on Tom Swift otherwise the section is so pointless as to be completely useless. MookiesDad 01:45, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
As a casual Tom Swift observer, I simply HAVE to add something to this. Perhaps on both sides. I must say, that I WAS, in fact, under the impression at first, that Tom Swift was the first serialized story of its kind. And the Frank Reade information was very much appreciated when I did, in fact, look further into this (although I have found the Frank Reade works somewhat harder to come by... if at all. Not to even MENTION the fact that they are, apparently, REAL). Seeing how this type of information is somewhat hard to come by elsewhere (Google for example) I would very much like to see this info preserved here in one form or another (if anything, just so as NOT to be accused of misleading the innocent Tom Swift observer into thinking that this was the FIRST of its kind. This to me seems relevant just because some people will ASSUME that this was the case, as I did at first) But then on the other hand, the dates... I very much think that they should be included as well. As much as they MAY be deceiving as to what ACTUALLY happened and when, for the most part, the general public, who may or may not have an interest in ever looking this up, would, I think, appreciate in some cases, having the DATE that they actually might already have ACCESS TO as a reference point being referenced here as well. And any ADDITIONAL infos would, I am sure, be very much appreciated by us. One aside that might be a reason for still including this... I have noticed the apparently close coincidence of the first Tom Swift publication, and the foundation of the BSA (boy scouts of America). While I am sure that drawing any conclusions here would be very much criticized, I think that things of this NATURE may in fact be of much interest to someone who is, say, going far enough out of their way to research this AT ALL. I thank you both in your efforts in striving towards an ideal, complete, quality reference in regards to this [Tom Swift] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 5bCA62g4tPa ( talk • contribs) 19:24, February 20, 2007 (UTC)
A question was raised above about where else I have edited. I have participated in not only this article, but also the following: Tom Swift, Jr., Rick Brant, Time Dilation, and Frank Reade. I don't recall whether I made any edits to the TSIII or TSIV articles; but if I did, I think they were minor. Most of this was prior to my registering with Wiki, though I did state my name, Scott Dickerson (SD). I don't necessarily endorse my earliest edits made as a newbie, and assume some have been subsequently reworked. Doxmyth 17:03, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Before I engage in further editing of this article, I'd like to solicit input from any others who may be interested in the various unresolved issues: (1) utility and appropriateness of the links to individual years; (2) utility and appropriateness of the "Predecessors" section (text available in History page for this article); (3) utility and appropriateness of the sentence removed the from "Series Overview" concerning Tom Swift fandom, as quoted above; (4) utility and appropriateness of a link to the "Tom Swift Lives!" fan fiction site. It would be particularly useful if persons wishing to add comment would look over the discussion page above, as various relevant points have been presented. Thanks all. -Scott Dickerson Doxmyth 22:15, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
My proposed and disputed Predecessors paragraph merely offers a few factual statements and does not touch upon any theory of "influence". However--and relevant to the discussion of having a link in this article to Frank Reade--I did run across the opinion of a noted private Tom Swift researcher, Thomas R. Ippolito, which he published in a small booklet call Blueprint (June, 2002--Issue Number 5). In an article entitled A Blueprint for Tom Swift, he states: "...several of Stratemeyer's most popular series are strikingly reminiscent of ones that appeared before the turn of the century. Tom Swift is no exception. Stratemeyer was not the first to introduce, or even popularize, the 'boy inventor' theme. In fact, by the time his first science and invention story...was published, the series that undoubtedly served as the inspiration for Tom Swift, Frank Reade Jr. had been in print for nine years." As this constitutes original research, it cannot be used as formal substantiation for a discussion of influences in the article, should anyone care to insert one. But Mr. Ippolito is well-known for his studies of the Stratemeyer Syndicate, and I thought his comment interesting enough to quote here in the article talk page. -Scott Dickerson Doxmyth 22:24, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Respectfully, somewhat in his defense, I have tried to look through all of the links associated with your Tom Swift page, and, especially in conjunction with the Stratemeyer writeup, am left with the impression that this WAS, in fact, the first of its kind. In all fairness I think that this may be most appropriately ADJUSTED in SOME WAY so that this is NOT the impression that I, as a casual Tom Swift observer am left with (as a result of the fact that I came to Wikipedia for my informational needs)
As the solicitation of outside input and comment (at Wiki Request for Comment as well as here) has produced no result to date, I have resumed editing this article. In deference to objections and concerns, I have modified my edits to clarify their purpose, and to make certain that no claim of influence is suggested. -Scott Dickerson Doxmyth 18:05, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
As the recent reverter, Noumenes, has not provided here his reasons, I have restored the deleted material, my own reasons being amply covered above. To address the last two comments preceding this one: (a) I have no issue with removing the fan fiction link, but need more of a sense of the views of the Wiki community before I acquiesce, as I think it useful to those who seek out this page for a comprehensive view of what is available in the contemporary Tom Swift "world"; (b) referring now not to the link, but just to the language in the text that mentions sites and fan fiction, you have discussed your opinions of my presumed motives, but not whether the text itself is useful, accurate, and relevant; (c) such phrasing as "attempt to justify," "total violation," "vanity site," "doesn't like to play by them," "merits (or lack thereof)" are uncivil, personally abusive, and fall short of Wiki's asume good faith policy. I do not regard "reverted by numerous editors" to be an accurate characterization. -Scott Dickerson Doxmyth 18:47, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
"There's no end to this argument", said Tom listlessly. While for the most part I don't consider changes that are to be made to the main body of text to be completely justified (at least not 'in place' of what was already there), I would think that we could maybe COMPROMISE here, and at least give SD a link. Maybe create a new link section that is separate from the others, but still comes up? I, as a Tom Swift third series fan, very much sympathize with the cause... to ME, it IS relevant. (Put yourself in my place- episodes 12 and 13 HAVE been written, but we're NOT going to give them to the likes of YOU; at ANY price. Ha) And I am just like, what? Give me SOMETHING. Come on. You guys act like you are catering to a group of f***ing coneheads here or something, and not actual FANS that want MORE of this. Compromise. Please
Doxmyth continues to complain that other editors should "assume good faith" about his repeated insertion of this link and the lead-in text in the body of the article. To quote from a Wiki essay on this topic, "the more a given user invokes assume good faith as a defense, the lower the probability that said user is acting in good faith." Assuming good faith does not mean that edits cannot be criticized. Doxmyth's complaints about incivility are not credible. Other editors are not required to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary, such as someone insisting on inserting a link to a web site that he owns and maintains, which is discouraged by Wiki. Pak434 16:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
As the newly converted are often more eloquent than anyone else, I'd like to urge those with concerns about the appearance of a link to the Tom Swift Lives! site to have a discussion with MookiesDad, previously a staunch opponent of the link to have a discussion with MookiesDad, previously a staunch opponent of the link. Now you can see, at The Hardy Boys, the following text: The stories have inspired some authors to create their own Hardy Boys fan fiction. This, a near quote of my own attempted edit, was inserted by-- MookiesDad. On 23 September 2006. In other words (if the point is obscure), he's doing on one page the exact same thing he's decrying here, in terms of (irrelevant? self-serving?) references to fan fiction. (Also note that he has tolerated the link to Hardy Detective Agency Fanfiction for quite some time, despite his not infrequent visits to the page for editing.) And as we're told above, with authority, that all these consensus-agglomerating editors are in fact the same person (that equals 1, if you're counting), a person who now endorses and promotes fan fiction on boys book series pages, it seems the opposition has dissolved.
Which leaves the Wiki-issue raised above by "Pak434". Namely the use of sockpuppets to attempt to subvert the Wiki process. As so abundantly demonstrated herein. Doxmyth 00:19, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
You've now provided the detailed information I need. - Scott Dickerson Doxmyth 17:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
According to Wiki's own article on the subject, Edisonade is a product of the Victorian and Edwardian eras. King Edward died in the spring of 1910, before or at the very beginning of the relase of the original TS series. Few writers on the subject would claim Tom Swift as being a science-fiction series (unlike the Stratemeyer Syndicate's " Great Marvel" series which has definite elements of sci-fi). It is primarily an adventure series, with the adventure invariably tied in to Tom's latest invention. By all the criteria specified in the Wiki Edisonade article, Tom Swift does NOT qualify as Edisonade, therefore including that in a "See Also" section is not credible. SuperDuperMan 01:34, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
See also [3], including comments on racism in Edisonade. jesup 15:23, 23 October 2006 (UTC)Ah, the edisonade, that most basic and American sub-genre, in which a (usually) young, (always) American inventor uses his (never her) ingenuity to save his country, and the world if necessary, from alien invaders, evil superscientists, Chinese dacoits, women of loose morals, and anything else the author can think of to throw at him. The Skylark books by Doc Smith are edisonades, as are, of course, the Tom Swift books.
Ok, after getting interested in this, I spent a while working on the Edisonade article. The original assertion in that article and repeated here, that it's limited to victorian and edwardian times, is not supported by primary or reliable sources, including several direct definitions from the person who invented the term. The Edisonade article is now much better and properly <ref>ed. By the definition of the term, as given both by the terms inventor and numerous other references, Edisonade applies well past Edwardian times, and Tom Swift certainly falls into that category. SuperDuperMan - while Antaeus was wrong to keep trying to force it in with edit-wars; you're now equally to blame for doing the same thing to keep it out and making threats that you "will not allow" it to be added. I say: put it back, in the text (as I did it last), no See Also, no Frank Reade. IMHO. jesup 17:23, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Personally, reading the description by Clute of Edisonade and the other people who've used it since, and having read many Tom Swift Jr books (and recently given the one Tom Swift Jr I still had and the Tom Swift Motor Cycle book to my niece), I'd classify them as matching the term to a T. Not even a maybe.
When I first started looking, I was all ready to agree with you because Anateus (sp) was being a jerk and edit-warring with you, and I took your description (victorian and edwardian) as being correct. Then I looked at the Edisonade page, and then I went looking for references to back up my claim you were right - and I found references that say you're wrong in this case. You can say you think it's a bad term, or that you think that Clute is a moron for defining it that way, or that it should be restricted - but that's not an argument for Wikipedia, we're documenting things, not arguing for people to change the usage or definition of terms. And so I rewrote my comment before I posted it here. jesup 23:37, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
IMHO based on the definition given for Edisonade, the original Tom Swift books could, I stress could, possibly be put into that genre but the later series (Junior and up) do not meet the qualification for that genre. I freely admit that I have never heard of that term being used before, despite having been reading, researching and collecting the Swift books for almost 50 years. FWDixon 21:43, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
This editor repeatedly inserts links in the "See Also" section that have absolutely no connection to Tom Swift. He refuses to discuss his reasons for doing so. It's clear Feldspar has never read a Tom Swift book otherwise he would not be insisting on his off-topic links. SuperDuperMan 00:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
On 19 October 2006 I called attention to the fact that user IDs 71.125.234.14, SuperDuperMan, MookiesDad, and Fwdixon all appeared to be the same person and that this person appeared to be using sockpuppets to broaden a legitimate concensus that had emerged against the insertion of a link and text that Doxmyth has wanted to place in the Tom Swift and Tom Swift Jr. articles. See 16:37, 19 October 2006 Pak434 (Talk | contribs) (→Discussion of further edit work by Scott Dickerson) . Instead of Doxmyth applauding the fact that I pointed this out in the spirit of fair play, even though I strongly oppose his repeated insertion of the disputed link and text in these articles, he has since actually placed a Socksuspect on my user page claiming that I am a sock puppet of Fwdixon et al. This defies reason. In fact, he has indiscriminately done this on the user page of everyone who has opposed his desire to link his fan fiction web site from these articles. This can only be viewed as a form of hysteria arising from the fact that a consensus has formed that he should not be permitted to use these articles to promote his web site. Pak434 18:39, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
My apology to other good faith editors for requesting admin intervention on this article but this user has been engaging in edit warring, flagrant sockpuppetry, repeated personal attacks, removal of legitimate warning messages from his various user talk pages, prank retalitory warnings on other people’s user page, and at least one 3RR violation over the past month. This demonstrated a brazen disregard for the rules of conduct governing Wikipedia and it was apparent that his disruptive behavior was not going to stop. So the edit war is over for the time being but the issue of this user’s conduct still has to be addressed. Pak434 16:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
In my experience, some of the most productive discussion goes on when a page has been protected, so I'm not too disheartened by the current protection. Let's take this opportunity to discuss changes that we think should be made, and see if we can get consensus for some of them by the time the protection is lifted.
One that I'd like to propose to start with is removing the Moonlighting reference from the "Modern influence and references" section. Considering how many shows on TV have made "pop culture references" their main raison d'etre I really don't think the fact that Tom Swift was once referenced by one such show really measures up to having an asteroid named after you or being named as an inspiration by a computer pioneer. Especially as it doesn't seem it was even a well-targeted reference; while that point in the series was around the time I stopped watching Moonlighting, I don't remember anything indicating that the character in question was an inventor, which is what Tom Swift is famous for being. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:11, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
A majority of editors have agreed that the Edisonade reference is accurate and useful. It should remain. It's true that there is some redundant information in the article. Maybe the "Series Overview" section should be deleted. The text that appears there could be placed in the appropriate sections for each of the different series. The first sentence could be placed in the Tom Swift Jr. section, the second sentence could be placed in the section for the third Tom Swift series, etc. Also the separate article on the fourth Tom Swift series is not needed. All or most of the information in it is covered here. Pak434 14:25, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
I think we should also look seriously at severe trimming of the External links section. "Severe" as in, the only one I'd positively identify as deserving to stay is the Project Gutenberg link. The link to the American Heritage article should actually be converted into a reference, since it supports the claims that Swift might have been based on Glenn Curtiss and also gives some good information on who the writers behind the books were. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:07, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
OK, I've made this a sub-heading because I think it needs to be addressed not just in one manifestation, but in basic principle. One seeming constant of Wikipedia is that fans think the perceptions and activities of fans are more encyclopedic than they actually are. Which is why, unless we find some truly significant fan activity to discuss, I think that at most we should have a single sentence along the lines of "Tom Swift fandom continues even today, with fans collecting the books and creating their own fanfiction for the series" and no more. And there's no need for links to anyone's fanfic site, either; in order to be fair about it, we'd need to pick a truly representative sample, the kind that would come up on a Google search. Which there's no reason for us to do, since the reader could just do that same Google search themselves. -- Antaeus Feldspar 04:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
We are having a problem with the definition of "consensus". Consensus means a general agreement among a majority of the editors or agreement of most of the participants. By any other definition there would have to be unanimity and content disputes would rarely if ever be resolved. In the case of both Edisonade and fan fiction lone dissenters have refused to accept the view of a majority of editors after prolonged debate. Filibustering to this point is disruptive. Pak434 10:41, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
The source cited for TASER being an acronym for Tom A Swift's electric rifle is incorrect. However, I emailed TASER and they did verify that as correct. (Incidenctly, the OED left out the A). Would the person who unlocks this page could please change that citation? 24.18.171.52 16:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
should the "extraterrestrials" link be changed to link to Extraterrestrial_life_in_popular_culture?-- Kent Witham 03:30, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
What's going on here is, I think, a perfect example of why the whole Wikipedia concept simply does not work. Cokerwr 23:39, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Pardon my intrusion--I'm new at this--but here's an extremely useful extenal link (by the way, it seems as though the current list of external links may not be accurate):
http://www.tomswift.info/homepage/oldindex.html
75.18.216.31 09:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC)Mark A. Snyder
All of the other links seem to work fine. The link you gave above can indeed be pared down--in fact, the one shown doesn't exactly work, but if you pare it to simply
http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/it/1990/2/1990_2_24.shtml
then that works. By the way, although the new external link I gave does send one to the TS Sr homepage, at the bottom of the page is a link to an equally extensive TS Jr section of the same website. Mark Snyder 21:49, 26 February 2007 (UTC)Mark A. Snyder
Quite by accident, I found another useful external link, also from American Heritage; this one is quite comprehensive...
http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1976/1/1976_1_64.shtml
Mark Snyder 22:39, 27 February 2007 (UTC)Mark A. Snyder
Two of the Tom Swift Jr. titles are in Project Gutenberg now if you follow the link. The link says specifically Tom Swift Sr. Gweeks 20:05, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
{{Editprotected}} Please change the "Tom Swift article: The perfect inventor" external link at the bottom of the page to
http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1976/1/1976_1_64.shtml
since the link which is there now is incorrect. Thanks! Mark Snyder 17:50, 16 March 2007 (UTC)Mark A. Snyder
Article has links to two sites owned and operated by the same person, listed here as: “The Unofficial Tom Swift Home Page” and “Fan Forum For All Swift Fans”. The latter seems to violate the asserted rule regarding refs or links for “fandom” or “fan activity” about this character. Other such refs have been regularly removed.
If this is not a problem now, the cited “Fan Forum” is a moderated group closed to viewing by nonmembers. As it is cross-linked from the owner’s other site anyway, I suggest replacing this link with one to an active group on the same topic:
This group does not require membership and is moderated by a committee of five persons well known in this area, and appears to be more active at present.
Wiki guidelines state the following:
If you have a conflict of interest, you should avoid or exercise great caution when:
1. editing articles related to you, your organization, or its competitors 2. participating in deletion discussions about articles related to your organization or its competitors 3. linking to the Wikipedia article or website of your organization
Pak434 02:34, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
The article page is locked, so this would need to be addressed by a sysop. (Given the history of edit warring, I do not recommend unlocking the page.) 67.101.87.172 18:35, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I hope that visitors to this discussion page, admins or not, will take some time to read it over with care. The discussions have been interesting as examples of how people approach the editing process on Wikipedia. Pak434 prefers to address motive in urging the rejection of a proposed change. I offered several perfectly rational reasons (persuasive or not) in support of my suggestion; those reasons were ignored in favor of repetitive ad hominem commentary on my putative "bias" in making them. Why? These are encyclopedia articles intended to be of use to inquirers. All that matters here, on this page, are whether the reasons given in support of a proposed change outweigh the reasons given in support of not making it. The basis for a rule against "bias by editors" is not that motive inherently and intrinsically renders a suggestion bad, but rather that it tempts one to cut corners with regard to justification. Ultimately, comments about "hypocrisy", "bias", "self-promotion", "crybaby-ism", or whether one is Doxmyth, FWDixon, or Pak434, are inflamatory and without relevance to the task of editing. The merit of the suggestion is all that matters.
And now, for all that, we appear to have a consensus. As stated by Pak434: "The easiest solution to this problem would be to delete all disputed links." Agreed: in fact, it was one of my offered alternatives. Pak434 and I concur in asking that an admin delete the link labeled “Fan Forum For All Swift Fans”. 69.3.132.105 18:01, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
First, see my apology above. No "I contain worlds"--I just screwed up.
Inasmuch as the issue was raised above, I am: Doxmyth, Scott Dickerson, 67.101.87.172 and 69.3.130.153. I do indeed live in the LA area, as do a few other people. I have recently chosen to sign in using the 4 tildas, which is not a violation of any Wiki rule, in the (so far vain) hope that my comments will elicit responses based upon their content and merit, not who I happen to be, a hobbyist-writer of nonpublished Tom Swift fan fiction that precisely one individual finds worthy of scorn. I have not pretended to be a disinterested visitor or anyone else. I am not this Lester guy or 5bCA62g4tPa (is this also an LA server?) and knew nothing about the latter's post. It is my belief, which no one else has to accept but which I and some others consider well-founded, that most of the other recent commenters here, Pak434 included (but not Mark Snyder, Antaeus, or Bryant), are the same person--an active Wiki editor who is the owner/operator of numerous sites about juvenile series books, including the one here that is to be removed, who is perhaps best known under the moniker FWDixon. (Concerned about motive? Don't ask me.) Except for my "Tom Swift Lives!" fanfic site and its subsites (none are discussion groups), I neither own nor operate nor moderate any site or group. And none of these things should be worthy of mention except insofar as a claim of consensus rests upon the participation of such unacknowledged aliases. In which case the comments are not to be deleted, but the commenters count as one only.
Do count me as one only.
The basis of my original recommendation remains unaddressed, subsequent comments focusing on who I am, my ulterior motives, and in effect whether I am worthy to participate here. Thus it shall be unto eternity, I guess. The prof above who zinged the Wiki process and its shortcomings has a valid point.
"I concur with this suggestion only with the stipulation that I made previously -- that it be recognized that Wiki is not meant to be used as a vehicle to promote specific websites or fandoms, particularly one versus another, and that links to such sites be strictly prohibited." If one were to take this comment literally, the proposal would ban all links on Wikipedia that lead to a site--which is all of them, of course--given that every website is a "specific" one, and the mere presence of a link can always be construed as promotion. I mention this to demonstrate that I take seriously the content and words of my fellow editors, whether they are real people or not.
So, sysops, we do have a consensus here among--actually, between--the major participants. Somebody please delete the link in question. And then re-lock the page lest it, or something worse, reappear.
And while you're at it, I ask that you do one more thing. Can this talk page be protected in such a fashion that anything posted to date cannot be deleted? (Please check History to recover what has been deleted, subsequent to this moment of my posting, in anticipation of the granting of this request.) I am not suggesting that the page be locked to further contributions--only that what has gone before remain completely visible, to preserve easy access for anyone who wishes to review the situation. Seems to me that all of us, myself included, need to be accountable for our remarks. SD 69.3.132.105 19:04, 15 April 2007 (UTC)