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Archive 1 |
I removed "What a joke he is. He defines himself by his orientation more than anything else." from the previous version of the page, as it is derisive commentary, rather than a factual claim.
I cleaned up a lot of self-promotional hooey, the sort of thing that creeps into biographical entries when they are obviously written by the people profiled. It's important to ensure Wikipedia doesn't become a collection of resumes. I also added the one important matter that distinguishes Palmer from virtually all the other libertarians profiled on this site: his position on the Iraq war.
A standard biography does not run on for thousands of words. And I would refer you to the same neutral point of view policy. You obviously are not neutral, although why this guy has been such a cause for controversy must remain a mystery, at least to me.
It is ridiculous that the entry on a relative unknown, such as Tom Palmer, should run longer than that of Murray Rothbard, and rival in length and detail the entries on Hayek, von Mises, and other giants of libertarianism. I have cut down this article and attempted to add information that the original author -- obviously Palmer himself -- did not wish to see include. I might point out that the practice of subjects writing their own entries is quite beyond the pale -- or should be. Rothbard 19:20, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
The real question is: is Tom Palmer's mother present?
The removal of the material relating to Palmer's position on the Iraq war is outrageous. It is documented from his own blog, and your attempt to "edit" reality is contrary the rules and spirit of Wikipedia.
Concur. I'm going to have to side with the "more (cited/supported) information is better" in most cases, including this one. Please don't needlessly hack and chop based on other entries. If we have factual NPOV info to present, please include it while adhering to NPOV, and cite the source. "Let's not bicker and argue about who killed whom!" --
Dymaxion
04:40, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
I must object to the edits of my material, all of which is sourced, and all of which is relevant. Either Willmcw or Tom Palmer himself is deleting documented material on account of a clear bias. It is obvious, furthermore, that Palmer himself clearly wrote the original version of this entry, which is nearly identical to the one posted on his personal weblog, or else someone who is simply determined to substitute puffery for a real biographical entry. The notice at the top of the entry says it needs editing, yet every attempt to edit it is vandalized. What gives? I appeal to whatever rules may exist designed to preserve Wikipedia's objectivity to keep this vandal from persisting. - Rothbard 21:11, September 21, 2005 (UTC)
This is rather annoying. "Rothbard" is clearly vandalising the entry with the intent to attack Palmer. It's a shame that he's misusing a fine tool like the Wikipedia to pursue his personal feud with Palmer. -- Menger
'Rothbard' vandalism on this entry is an attack on Wikipedia neutrality. I have added the site to watch list, as it seems others, too, because one person is vandalizing site and linking to unsubstantiated claims apparently written by the same person. I checked each link and none supported claim made in the text changes made by 'Rothbard'. Palmer was opposed to immediate withdrawal of all foreign troops in April 2004, but that does not justify saying that he is "opposed" to withdrawal. Words like 'immediate' and 'now' have meaning and should not be used to distort a meaning. ('Immediate' in April 2004 is not the same as 'immediate' in September 2005.) The so-called "Palmer Plan" was taken from a sentence out of context, as I contacted Dr Palmer and he pointed me to full context here: http://www.tomgpalmer.com/archives/018290.php. That is dishonest to take a sentence out of context, call it a "plan" and then insert into an encyclopedia entry. If posting criticism (and why not?), criticisms should be honest ones. Also the claim that he wantes 'the U.S. to stay until the insurgents are militarily defeated" links to an entry on Justin Raimondo's web site (who has a vendetta against Palmer) that then links to a short entry about terrorists in Saudi Arabia who cut off the head of an American worker there, not about insurgents in Iraq. Again, that is not good policy or appropriate for an encyclopedia entry. Insurgents in Iraq were not mentioned even once there. An encyclopedia should provide a reliable source of information presented from a neutral point of view, not an opportunity to carry out a personal feud, as "Rothbard" (who seems likely to be Justin Raimondo, as same person made many edits on Raimondo entry in Wikipedia, or at least very close to him; also 'Rothbard' in comments above has taken credit for unsigned changes, so it looks like unsigned changes are from him, too) has done, first trying to delete such items as educational background, then deleting more material, then adding claims that are not, as one finds when following them, even true. The 'Rothbard' vandalism against this entry is discouraging for reliability of Wikipedia entries and should be combated. I am asking others to put this entry on Watchlists to check for more vandalism. Honest criticism and links to criticisms are of course part of honest entries, but the 'Rothbard' changes do not meet such a test.-- RBrancusi 19:32, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
I was alerted to the monomaniacal and intense efforts to disfigure this entry, all evidently from one person with quite obviously too much time on his hands. After going through the various changes I found that the "Rothbard" changes (and those that are almost surely the same person without signing on) are a part of a hate campaign. First Rothbard takes down the educational list, which, as noted above, is certainly a standard feature of a biography. Then he complains that it is "thousands of words". Then that it is longer than an entry on someone else. Then he follows with change after change to introduce his own point of view, his attacks, etc. When those are rolled back, he comes back and deletes material that is historically interesting and relevant, regarding Palmer's efforts in communist ruled countries to spread liberalism. And he adds back distortions of Palmer's views on Iraq, as is evident to people who take the time to review the links. It would not be a problem to indicate that Palmer's views are sometiems controversial, but to have the author of the attacks put those attacks in himself as claims of fact, although they are not supported by documentation, even on the web sites to which he links! Something very strange is going on here. Wikipedia is not a place for people to launch revenge attacks. We all use it as a source of information, although the sort of attacks from Rothbard show that its wise to be cautious when reading it. I intend to visit this site occasionally and ensure that it serves the function of being a reference, based on Wikipedia standards of a NPOV. -- Sajita 03:52, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
I always hate to step in the middle of a good mud-slinging fest, for fear of getting splattered, but I have to say I read this talkback page, I looked through some of the history, and I thought about this, and I don't think any of the players here are trying to vandalise. It looks to me like two organised gangs of editors that BOTH have a problem understanding NPOV. A cooldown or maybe this article should just be deleted? It does seem to be true that the subject is of very marginal importance... Arker 04:16, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
It is obvious now that "Rothbard" is Juistin Raimondo, for a simple reason. He has made extensive edits (in terms of adding material) to Raimondo page, but has only made deletions and distortions to a page of someone Raimondo hates and has vilified in disgusting language. I disagree with Arker; the malicious edits are made by one person, under the name of "Rothbard." (Raimondo is on his page cited as author of a biography of Rothbard.) Palmer, if you like him or hate him, helped greatly to spread classical liberal ideas in the Soviet Empire and is well known for that; he is one of the few libertarians now active in the Arabic world, as well. In addition, he has written on many topics and has been a notable figure in the classical liberal movement. He made some critical comments under his own name on Justin Raimondo for his views, and now Raimondo is seeking revenge and every day changes this entry to disfigure and distort it. Note that others have not made similar attacks on Raimondo, even if they disagree with him. Rothbard-Raimondo has made it clear that he will use any reason to attack Palmer and to disfigure this Wikipedia entry, all in violation of the purposes of Wikipedia, which create open exchange of information and ideas.
Sajita
06:06, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Not only is it obvious to any reasonable person that "Rothbard" is Raimondo (it wouldn't be the first time that Raimondo had written under a pseudonym while denying it), but it is plainly obvious as well that Rothbard/Raimondo has nothing to offer to this page (or, indeed, Wikipedia) than attacks and smears. Further, it is obvious that Raimondo and his ilk are content to spend their days making sure Dr. Palmer's page stays vandalized. I've edited the page a number of times, both to clean up the grammar, and to make sure that reasonable criticism--and not advertisements to kooky websites--appear. I linked to Jeffrey Friedman's criticism of Palmer and libertarianism, and that criticism is both reasonable and pertinent to the page. Rothbard, however, would rather delete that criticism, and in its place put a link to his own take on "the Palmer plan" for Iraq (which is not a plan at all, and is taken wholly out of context on Raimondo's, errr, Rothbard's webpage. In short, if Palmer's enemies would refrain from deleting legitimate content (i.e., Palmer's work in eastern Europe, for which I provided documentation; Friedman's criticism, etc.), and refrain from linking to irrelevant asides that happen to appear on their own websites, this page would be a valuable addition to Wikipedia and libertarianism.-- Freemarkets 11:49, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
I think this is becoming the most talked about topic in the Wikipedia, if it isn't already. It surprises me to see how many people are involved in this little battle. In fact, it's so interesting I've decided to get involved as well.
The entry is by no means relevant as it is now. We can't even begin to talk about NPOV and relevance of information when words like "butt boy" and "hooey" are so frequent in these pages. Even so, I don't think it should be deleted.
I have a rather clear idea of what a useful Wikipedia page should look like. Although I don't intend to edit the entry myself (yet) I will share my views with you. I will assume that none of us have any ulterior motives.
It is generally very good to stick to the facts. Things like education, activity, visits to foreign countries and so on which can be factually proved fit very well in this category. The removal of such information which happened early in the history of this entry is something I simply can't understand.
Considering that we are talking about a living person I don't know if you should be focusing so much on his ideology. Think about it for a second. When we discuss the ideas of Adam Smith, Karl Marx, Julius Caesar and so on, we do so by weighing their life's work through careful studies and choosing those things which made a difference. Tom Palmer might not even have decided on some issues yet. Reduction ad absurdum: What will happen with all your hard work if Tom Palmer suddenly decides to become a Muslim extremist? He's got all the time in the world to change his mind, you know. You guys are just wasting your time discussing his recent writings, especially since you seem to be focusing on tiny quotes from tiny articles and not major works. The kind of information I've seen in these pages belongs in tabloids, not in an encyclopedia. Chrisn 19:27, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
I made some edits to this page to remove the "Iraq Controversy" section. It's complete BS. There's no controversy. Aside from that, it's fine. Jstrummer 02:49, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
I see that the latest act of vandalism from the Tom Palmer Fan Club doesn't even come with an attempt to justify itself -- someone calling themselves "Strummer" (who has never done any Wikipedia work before this) simply goes in, chops and cuts out the offending paragraph, and cuts and runs. I appeal to the Wikipedia community to put a stop to this. Rothbard 03:40, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Finally, I don't know why Raimondo is upset that Dr. Plamer might have a "fan club" (I've never attended a meeting of that club, but I'm told it numbers in the many thousands in and around the DC area). My only guess is that he isn't important enough, or taken seriously enough, to have one himself. In any event, the existence of such a fan club shouldn't affect how this page is edited.-- Freemarkets 21:58, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Nobody commented on my last entry so I presumed everybody agreed on the role of an encyclopedia. The Wikipedia is an "increasingly important part of the public record" as you said yourself, Rothbard, but it is an Encyclopedia. Please look up the word in a dictionary.
Discussions about current events and current policies belong in newspapers and on forums, not here. You cannot say for sure how Tom Palmer or Cato are looking on the Iraq War or any other issue for that matter. Even if they told you themselves it still wouldn't be reliable information because only time will tell. Chrisn 17:06, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
The entry of yet another Palmer sock-puppet onto the scene shows just how dishonest the "editing" attempts since Willmcw's admirable edit have been. I would point to the addition of the nonsequiteur "but Palmer is not affiliated with the U.S. Libertarian Party" as particularly telling: mentioning the LP at all was meant, if I'm not mistaken, to indicate why Palmer's views on Iraq are considered controversial in the libertarian movement in general, without attributing antiwar sentiment to all libertarians without exception. All the other additions by our latest anonymous editor were designed to put Palmer in the best possible light. If this sort of vandalism continues, I'm wondering: is there a way to arbitrate or decide this issue? I'm also wondering if it is possible to simply delete the entry completely, which is another (albeit less attractive) option. - Rothbard 22:27, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Welcome to anarchy in action.
You can mark it for deletion quite easily. However, as it's already gone that route once before, and stayed because of a 'hung jury' result, that might not be in accord with the customary (dare I say 'common?') laws here. I'm not confident enough in my understanding of the process to say, or I might have done it myself already. There is a mediation option also, I recommend starting here and doing some reading before acting however. Arker 05:56, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
No anonymous "sock-puppet" here. All edits undertaken with the IP 24.119.184.135 are my work. I've never had a registered Wiki user account before tonight because I've never needed one; my only edits in the past have been few, and mostly grammatical in nature. I came across this entry yesterday, and while it's true that I'm acquainted with Tom Palmer (and have written nice things about him), my edits were intended only to bring proper context to an entry that was apparently designed to cast the subject in an explicitly negative light by omitting such explanatory context outright. There's nothing wrong with bringing up any topic that is notable with regards to the subject of the entry, particularly something Palmer is as well-known for as his position on Iraq, but the original entry left out crucial information and as a result misstated Palmer's actual views. Eric.d.dixon 06:24, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
"The way it was previously worded would make it seem to non-libertarians that Palmer's views had contravened some kind of libertarian litmus test, negating any claim Palmer might have to the term "libertarian." This is clearly not the case, so a revision was in order. If anyone has a better idea for a revision that would make this point, be my guest. Eric.d.dixon 06:34, 3 October 2005 (UTC)"
Incidentally, I'm not sure why adding a caveat about Palmer's non-affiliation with the Libertarian Party would be seen as a non-sequitur; the LP platform doesn't represent the views of the majority of libertarians. The way it was previously worded would make it seem to non-libertarians that Palmer's views had contravened some kind of libertarian litmus test, negating any claim Palmer might have to the term "libertarian." This is clearly not the case, so a revision was in order. If anyone has a better idea for a revision that would make this point, be my guest. Eric.d.dixon 06:34, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
The Libertarian Party reference isn't the only problem with that section of the entry as it originally stood. It was grossly inaccurate in a couple of other places. First, Palmer hasn't denounced "the antiwar movement," he has denounced a few very specific people within that movement. Justin Raimondo and antiwar.com do not constitute the antiwar movement; they don't even constitute a representative sample. And the reason for this denunciation is entirely relevant -- he sees them as rooting for those who kill American soldiers. The entry as originally written makes it seem as though Palmer condemns those who call for peace, when in fact he condemns those he sees as celebrating the loss of American life. This is also not his "most visible role"; that would have to be his actual work in Iraq, attempting to spread ideas. Second, Palmer's quote to "find and kill all of them" does not apply to all insurgents, as the original entry would make it seem. The quote comes from an entry in Palmer's weblog responding to a beheading in Saudi Arabia, and is about "radical Islamicist" terrorism, not about insurgents in Iraq. Finally, Palmer's opinion doesn't fully "contradict" the Cato Institute's opinion, but differs on the length of time he thinks may be necessary. Palmer has said he doesn't want a long occupation, but that he wants a safe retreat. Perhaps Palmer places more importance on the safety of the retreat than the authors of the study Cato commissioned, but this doesn't indicate that Palmer likes the occupation in any kind of imperialist or nation-building sense. I have reverted the entry back to my edited version, and will continue to do so unless someone can tell me how providing this context is incompatible with NPOV. Eric.d.dixon 17:58, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
The very last edit, made by someone who did not sign in, seems to me to be the basis for a reasonable compromise. I tweaked it a bit: the contention that Palmer's views have been controversial "among antiwar activists" is not true: most antiwar activists have never heard of Palmer. Only a libertarian would know his name, and even in those circles he's not exactly a household word. I changed it, therefore, to "controversial among libertarians." I also changed the part about how he's supposedly been criticized for going to Iraq and talking about "constitutionalism": that misrepresents what is clearly stated in the link provided. As I understand it, the criticism was directed at Palmer for advising the current Iraqi government, which many libertarians regard as a morally and politically questionable activity. All in all, however, a good edit, neutral in effect if not in intent. Rothbard
First of all, if there's a three revert rule, "Rothbard" has long since crossed it -- in most cases without explanation. Just looking at the most recent 50 edits to the page, we can see him reverting on September 30 at 16:41, October 1 at 7:53, October 1 at 19:25, October 2 at 4:53, October 2 at 7:40, October 2 at 13:54, October 3 at 16:44, and October 3 at 20:37. If we count the reversion he made to the new "compromise" paragraph on October 4 at 14:28, that makes triple the allowed reversion count for one user, and within a five-day span. I'd check back further into the edit history, but really, isn't that way more than enough?
Second, it's been pointed out multiple times that Palmer's criticism of Raimondo and antiwar.com don't constitute a denunciation of "the antiwar movement". Throw Jane Fonda into the mix and you still don't get anywhere close to a movement, particularly when Palmer is on record as praising others within the movement. Rothbard's continuing edits on this point are dishonest to the point of absurdity.
Third, I was forthcoming from the beginning that I knew Tom and that I had written nice things about him. Still, the quote "Rothbard" pulled from my blog is also misquoted. In the blog entry in question, I had quoted a long letter written to my best friend, giving him my take on the feud between Palmer and Justin Raimondo. At the end, I said in conclusion: "So that's what I think. Tom Palmer rules. Don't be hatin'." (Note the lack of the exclamation point "Rothbard" so generously provided.) Think of this with the same sense of cultural paradox that would exist in me, a fat, bald, pasty white guy, greeting the friend I was writing to with a colloquial "What up, G?" However lame it might be, it's something we do. The sentiment is genuine, though, so this is really neither here nor there -- more than anything, it serves, in a small way, to highlight the lack of rigor "Rothbard" brings to the table when employing quotations.
But if I'm a Palmer partisan, attempting to prevent the spread of inaccurate claims about him in a source prided for NPOV, "Rothbard" is all the more a partisan. His edit history is filled with tending to the entries of Justin Raimondo and antiwar.com (including correcting the year of Raimondo's birth), and even in some of the other entries to which "Rothbard" has contributed, his edits have involved adding bibliographical references to Justin Raimondo books, or adding Murray Rothbard's critique of Objectivism to the Objectivism entry. There's nothing necessarily wrong with any of these edits, except that together they demonstrate that "Rothbard" brings a single point of view to Wikipedia, spreading it to every entry he touches -- however much he might try to claim neutrality for himself. It hardly matters that "Rothbard" claims not to be Justin Raimondo, if he has so thoroughly devoted himself to Raimondo's cause.
As for the new "compromise" entry, it looks fine to me, as long as it remains free of the inaccurate edits "Rothbard" continues to make. I had assumed that more factual context was better, but a stripped-down entry shouldn't be a controversy for either side as long as it adheres to NPOV -- something "Rothbard" still tries to prevent. Eric.d.dixon 04:15, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
What I care about is Wikipedia. Palmer's entry is a vanity article: that is, it was written by him. It should be deleted, in its entirety, pronto.
As long as mediation appears to be stalled, I'll take another stab at responding to the claims made above by "Rothbard".
It's an attempt at revisionist history to claim that Palmer had "clear support for the invasion" -- he opposed the war from the start. His support for the continuing occupation is an attempt to make the best of a bad situation, or, as summed up in a common aphorism, "How to turn a seeming disadvantage to our advantage?" The war was a bad idea -- Palmer has always maintained this. But since we're there, it may be possible to help make the country a better place, hence his effort to spread libertarian ideas in Iraq, and advise members of the Iraqi parliament on how to embed principles of liberty in their nascent attempt at building a new government. Palmer may be wrong about any positive effects his efforts in Iraq may have, but to say that this isn't his view, or his goal, is either mistaken or simply dishonest. This could be compared to the time Milton Friedman visited Chile to advise Pinochet's new government. Friedman was also the recipient of harsh criticism from within the libertarian movement for this -- he was accused of supporting Pinochet and his government because he had advised them on free-market principles. This is, correctly, a fact worthy of inclusion in Milton Friedman's Wikipedia entry, but the entry also includes Friedman's own defense of his actions. Not to say that Palmer is anywhere near as notable a figure as Friedman, but this would serve as a good model for Palmer's entry.
Second, as to Palmer's denunciations of members of the antiwar movement -- it's clear from the source that Palmer is criticizing particular members of the antiwar movement, regardless of era, for one particular reason. Palmers sees them as rooting for the other side rather than simply advocating peace. This is the reason for Palmer's denunciation of Justin Raimondo, antiwar.com, Jane Fonda, and William Kunstler -- they represent a particular *type* of antiwar activist that Palmer sees as reprehensible. Palmer's praise of Joan Baez represents a different *type* of antiwar activist that Palmer admires. Although the blog entry in question has Palmer praising only Joan Baez, anyone with basic reading comprehension skills can see that both his denunciations and praise stem from specific reasons, and that those same reasons would apply to others. It's pretty safe to say that Palmer would criticize *any* antiwar activist who roots for the Iraqi insurgency against American troops, and that he would admire any antiwar activist who works toward peace for both sides. This is way too much context to put in the entry, but it should suffice to say that Palmer has denounced "some of" the antiwar movement -- even if it doesn't give Palmer's reason for the denunciation.
"Rothbard" claims above that "Even when Palmer's own immortal words are cited, this is somehow interpreted as 'twisting' his words." The only quotation that might fit this charge that I can think of is from a prior paragraph by "Rothbard," which included this phrase: "advocating that U.S. war policy toward the insurgents must be to 'find and kill all of them before they kill all the rest of us, Muslim and non-Muslim alike.'" The quote is accurate, but a look at the source for the quote quickly reveals that it has nothing to do with Iraqi insurgents; it was about a beheading in Saudi Arabia. So, the quote is specifically about those Palmer views as "Islamicist terrorists". This category may fit some insurgents, but certainly not all of them, and to claim that this quote of Palmer's is about Iraqi insurgents is simply wrong. The source doesn't support the claim.
Finally, "Rothbard" keeps calling everyone else "sock puppets". I don't know for sure who "Rothbard" is, and I'm not sure who "Menger" or "Freemarkets" are either. But I've been forthcoming from the beginning about my own identity and my own biases -- that I know Palmer, and I like him. Still, my only agenda here is accuracy. I think that "Rothbard" has his own conclusions about what Palmer believes, and is determined to shape this Wikipedia entry to fit his own preconceptions, regardless of the evidence. Eric.d.dixon 03:43, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
I am protecting this page, because this dispute is going nowhere fast. Editors involved in this dispute who are willing to accept mediation please sign below. ⟳ausa کui × 15:39, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Sign here:
It looks like he's not interested in mediating this. If anyone is interested in taking this to the next stage, please contact me privately (email) and I will advise. ⟳ausa کui × 23:34, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
I think that, if controversial issues are to be raised, it should be undertaken in a neutral manner. The anonymous Houston based person (we can call him SK) has tried to insert unsubstantiated charges about Palmer supporting theocracy, favoring US military victory, etc., on the grounds that other people have bitterly attacked him. That is not a neutral approach appropriate to an encyclopedia. Since a neutral approach was once in it, but was changed by SK to smuggle in his own point of view, it is better to just delete that section. One person (SK: 71.131.34.206, 71.131.36.34) evidently waits until he thinks others don't have this on their watch lists and then strikes to vandalize it as part of a vendetta. That is not what an encyclopedia entry is for. Information should be put in a neutral form. This is not: "He has been further criticized by Raimondo for calling for a "military victory" by the U.S. in Iraq and helping to construct a "theocracy" under the guise of "advising" members of the Iraqi parliament." (71.131.34.206) It implies that Palmer has called for a "military victory" by the U.S. (when the only cited document calls for a victory against terrorists by the Iraqis) and that he has helped to construct a theocracy. Also, "under the guise of" is a statement of bad faith. Those are not compatible with the NPOV suitable for an encyclopedia. Until SK can behave himself, the section should be deleted. Or it should be as it was before he struck, with a neutral point of view.
It is tiresome to have the same people (SK and "Dick Clark Mises") vandalizing a page by inserting unsourced materials or - latest attempt - a special hate page dedicated to Stephen Kinsella's personal grudge against the subject of this entry. Gossip pages and stalking pages are not serious sources for an encyclopedia. They have inserted - and others have accepted - links to articles that criticize or even smear (like Raimondo) Palmer. Is that not enough? Every time they come they insist on another bit of hateful smearing. Do that on a blog, not on an encyclopedia. An encyclopedia is not the place to carry out a grudge - it is a resource for online research and links to serious sources, such as newspapers, not to specially created grudge blogs. -- Sajita 19:07, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
This is so pathetic. Kinsella, "Dick Clark," and the rest of the wackos should not be allowed to advertise their site on this encyclopedia. If you want to sit around and obsess, feel free, but do it on your own time and your own dime. Buy some blog ads if you want to increase your traffic; don't free-ride on the wikipedia site. (unsigned comment by User:69.140.65.136)
Sir (or Ma'am): Please refrain from making personal attacks, as per WP:NPA. Also, please assume good faith. I have absolutely no affiliation with the website in question. I have never contributed to it, and I didn't know of its existence until I saw it on this article. Therefore, any accusations that I am trying to increase "my" traffic are wrongheaded. The source in question is notable (since N. Stephan Kinsella has been deemed notable by the community), and it is certainly not given any undue weight in the article (it is not cited in the article's body, and the link is in the appropriate place). Dick Clark 21:26, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Ok, ok. I take it back. You're not a wacko. You're totally reasonable, and not creepy at all. In any event, this hate site is not notable, and inserting it here does not help the entry or the encyclopedia. It only increases traffic to the site that's run by your friends. I think it's safe to say that anyone who reads the content on that garbage site doesn't need to "assume good faith" when its proprietors and their friends try to advertise it on Wikipedia.
User:BoggedDownHerbie removed a bit of text citing Antiwar.com which was unfavorable to Palmer. Again, we have a first time editor who magically knows to comment his edit, and who sounds suspiciously like the sockpuppets above in said comment. As I noted in my edit comment, Antiwar.com is a notable entity, especially in the context of libertarian foreign policy positions. Dick Clark 22:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
The obsession with Palmer that those guys show is weird. Weird like unhealthy. Why is "DickClarkMises" so concerned that he only links to or shows attack, which are to cult publications and not generally helpful to an encyclopedia. So he argued with some "Rothbardians"? A link to major media is one thing and a link to a cult publication is another. I can see some of the links, but linking to a 'hate blog' seems to me not very helpful for a scholarly resource. Why the obsession? And why use an encyclopedia to carry out such a weird obsession? And Kinsella is as notable as any random person with an obsession to stalk someone else. No more. (unsigned comment by anonymous user at 149.225.62.52)
Is there no criticism that's out of bounds for a link from this encyclopedia? Do we really need a link to a site that calls Dr. Palmer "La Palmer," "P-Dog," and a "dimwit-serioso"? Are readers going to learn much by going to a site that calls Palmer an "utter idiot and/or liar"? Or by reading that "Palmer is trapped with a tortured, distorted perspective on reality". It's clear from an even cursory reading of this page that it's nothing but the incoherent ramblings of a VERY disturbed pseudo-intellectual. That person should not be able to free-ride on either Wikipedia or Dr. Palmer, and as such the page ought to be omitted, or submitted as its own entry to rise or fall as the readers and editors determine is appropriate.--Sopranos11 (previous unsigned comment by User:Sopranos11)
Criticism is ok but linking a blog dedicated to smearing someone on his encyclopedia entry seems to me to be just plain silly and an encouragement to name calling and other similar behaviour. -- 158.143.169.8 15:38, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I find Wikipedia very useful when I want to find out the date Margaret Thatcher was elected, or the population of Iceland. But of course the obvious problem with Wikipedia is that it gets used by people with an ax to grind. That's bad enough when it's Bush lovers and haters fighting over the biography of the president of the United States. It's farce when people with too much time on their hands spend their days writing personal attacks on relatively obscure scholars. As for this "Palmer Periscope" link, I mean really. How can an *encyclopedia* link to a blog that calls a scholar "La Palmer," "P-Dog," "dimwit-serioso" and "Tommy boy"? Let's see . . . imagine the Milton Friedman entry offering as a serious resource a site that calls him "Uncle Miltie," "Pinochet's butt boy," and "Jew-boy Friedman." People who value Wikipedia should block this site and police this nonsense. 69.143.116.143 20:32, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
The question is: does the "Palmer Periscope" with its repeated inflammed attacks on Palmer ("P-Dog," "dimwit-serioso", "Tommy boy" and so on) meet the standard for substantive and relevant criticism? I think no matter how "notable" one thinks this fellow Kinsella is (?), reasonable people should agree that Kinsella's personal and vile rants against the subject of this entry are not material worthy of an encyclopedia entry. -- 82.154.211.222 04:04, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, it seems that those in favor of deleting the link in question do not wish to engage in further dialogue on this talk page. While I would much prefer the interested parties coming to some compromise position on this, I am afraid that Will Beback was correct when he suggested an RfC to solve this dispute. Dick Clark 21:02, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I'm responding to your request. I've read through the article and talk page, Tom's personal home page and the critical page in question, and my impression is that the link essentially a general bashing page, and not very respectable. So I'd prefer not to include it within the article. I don't think that these kinds of links are as important for articles about persons as they are for topics, such as politics, etc.
It would perhaps be suitable to instead write in the article text itself Who are his main critics and what are their main arguments. That would then in turn motivate external links. Regards, Fred- Chess 18:00, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Oh I should also add that this is just my opinion; I don't claim this to be an official statement of Wikipedia. / Fred- Chess 18:02, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
What is a problem is that the "criticism" inserted by POV-Vandals is in the form of juvenile blog remarks. Jeffrey Friedman's essay is serious criticism, but what DickClarkMises insists on inserting is not. Wikipedia should be more than just Google; if you want to find blog comments about someone or something, go to Google; if you want to find substantive scholarship, go to Wikipedia. But DickClarkMises is working very hnard to make the two hard to distinguish. -- Sajita 02:29, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
It appears a lot has happened here since I last stopped by. The page didn't change for months, and I stopped checking in. At any rate, after reviewing the last few months of changes, and the new discussion on this page, I feel I should disclose something. When I first stepped in to help edit this page, back during the edit wars instigated by "Rothbard," I almost added the Palmer Periscope link to the article myself, at the same time I added a few other external links. I certainly didn't intend to do this with the intention of raising the quality of discourse associated with this entry, but I generally hold the view that there's nothing wrong with including a source of criticism as long as a rationale for the article subject's own views are represented -- or, at least, also linked.
The tone of the Palmer Periscope blog is enough to discredit itself in the eyes of anyone looking for substantive criticism (not to mention that I have trouble believing that anyone who calls Palmer "serioso" knows him at all), but it was something else that made me change my mind about adding the link. A friend of mine, who followed this Wikipedia edit imbroglio back when I first participated, decided to involve himself by adding a comment at the Palmer Periscope. He sent me the link to his comment the night he made it -- it was a clear, respectful analysis of the flaws in Kinsella's logic in one of his recent Periscope entries. I was curious to see if any legitimate defense could be made, so I checked the comments for that entry again the next day. My friend's comment was gone.
Kinsella is certainly under no obligation to host the comments of people who disagree with him on his blog (or his friend's blog, as the case may be). But an author deleting outright clear, respectful criticism of his writing indicates that he doesn't have much faith in the strength of his own arguments. I decided I couldn't add an external link to that site in the spirit of open dialogue, when the site in question was itself hostile to such open dialogue. Eric.d.dixon 12:06, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
What is the source for this rather wild claim other than Palmer himself?
How exactly did he smuggle them? In his suitcase? That would not be possible they would not fit. Did he drive a truck accross the Iron Curtan?
Tom likes to cultivate a sophisticated and dashing persona, but having known and worked with the guy this claim needs verification from a person besides Palmer or someone closely aligned to him.
If you are going to make claims that imply that you risked your life in acting to undermine your country's enemies, some proof ought to be provided. None ever has. Who were these recipients of copiers and fax machines? And if all he did was mislabel some boxes, good for him. Let's say just that. What was Plamer's response to these e-mails? Kitteninthebelfry 05:32, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I received an email from Dr. Palmer that was sent to him by Christine Blundell, who is the Operations Director of the Institute of Economic Affairs in London and who used to work with him. (He said he was still going through emails and would contact me again.) Her letter follows: 19th April 2006
This seems to me to be adequate evidence of the sort that Mr. Kitten demanded. Accordingly, I am reverting to the previous version. -- Sajita 01:09, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I am satisfied. Thank you, Sajita, for taking the trouble to inquire about and clarify the matter. Kitteneatkitten 22:45, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
On another issue, I do not think the word "classical liberal" should be used in this article. The phrase itself is not neutral and never in my experience used outside the speech and works of modern American libertarians.
The phrase implies that modern liberals have somehow deviated from the principles of 19th century liberals, but that modern libertarians such as Mr. Palmer stay true to these principles.
For this reason I am changing all references to "classical liberal" to either "libertarian" when the reference is to libertarians, and "liberal" when the reference is to figures from before 1900. These terms are both in wide circulation and not at all loaded words. Palmer's employer in fact describes itself as "libertarian."
I also propose, if you disagree with this change, that the issue be mediated rather than us changing things back and forth. Kitteneatkitten 22:54, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
(my post begins here - kitten) Your proposed compromise is really not one at all, as all it proposes to do is mix a neutral word with one that is not neutral. It would be like me proposing to alternate "libertarian" with "classical reactionary."
My concern is that calling Mr. Palmer a "classical liberal" implies that he and his fellow libertarians are true to America's liberal heritage (Jefferson, Hume, Locke, et al.,) while those commonly described today as liberals today in America are not. This is not a neutral point of view, even if the level of bias is toned down as you propose. I maintain that Mr. Palmer is not a classical liberal at all, and if he is a classical anything he is a "classical reactionary," that is a steady defender of the powerful against the weak. Just as calling Mr. Palmer a "classical reactionary" anywhere in the article is not neutral, the same applies to calling him a "classical liberal." This is not the proper place to decide if libertarians such as Mr. Palmer or social democrats such as Rep. Bernie Sanders are the real heirs of Jefferson and Locke, thus the neutral term libertarian should be used.
That the Cato Institute also wants to use the same biased termonology as you and Mr. Palmer is neither relevant nor any surprise.
PS - don't forget to sign your posts with a four "~" marks so I know whom I'm talking to.
Kitteneatkitten 01:09, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I also do not understand Mr. or Ms. Kitten's concern. He or she seems to think that the term "liberal" is a term of praise, rather than simply a descriptive term. Kitten tells us that he or she does not like Dr. Palmer's ideas (which Kitten calls "reactionary," which is always an insult and not something many people would say of themselves or of people they like), but if he would consult Wikipedia's entry on classical liberalism, he would find that it certainly applies to Dr. Palmer and also to his institute. The term is very widely used to refer to a belief in limited government, protection of private property, religious toleration, etc., etc. It does not imply that modern liberals are not heirs of liberalism, but only that there are various heirs, including "modern liberals" and "classical liberals." That is why "classical" is added to the term, to avoid confusion with how the term is mostly used in the United States. It distinguishes a point of view that is not conservative (no laws against voluntary sexuality, free speech, drug use, immigration, for examples) and is not socialist (free markets, free trade) and is not for the welfare state. In other countries, "classical" is not necessary, as the term for that position is just "liberal." It seems that Kitten is, maybe unconsciously, inserting a point of view by arguing that "liberal" is somehow a term of praise and that the most common American usage is the right one and that the better term for Dr. Palmer's views is "reactionary," since Kitten thinks that Dr. Palmer must hate poor people, since Kitten thinks his policies would be bad for them, whereas Dr. Palmer apparently thinks that they would be beneficial for them.
If Wikipedia has an entry on classical liberalism and if the term is commonly used to describe people like Dr. Palmer and the Cato Institute, then I see no reasons why it should not be in this entry, and used as a descriptive term and with no sense that it is praise (or, for that matter, blame). I would be willing to ask for the views of others, but as Kitten has explained his or her view, I think that it is not appropriate editing, but an unfortunate introduction of a point of view into an article and I would revert to the previous version, but would accept the compromise of using both terms. "Classical liberal" is used among academics and among political writers who distinguish those views from "modern American liberalism" (or from "social liberalism"); "libertarian" is used to signify a more radical form of that view and to avoid confusion with "modern American liberalism." -- Sajita 04:23, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Sajita, as described above, your compromise is no compromise at all. If calling Palmer a "classical liberal" is not neutral, then doing so less often or in parenthesis does not change anything, the article is still biased. I would not object, however, to a line mentioning that "Palmer describes his views as classical liberalism." This is both true, gets accross the fact that this is what Palmer would like to be called, yet maintains neutrality by not actually stating as fact that Palmer is a "classical liberal."
If you don't like the analogy to "classical reactionary," how about "classical tory" or "classical conservative?" Both of these are better words to describe Mr. Palmer, if we are going to call him "classical" anything at all. I think it is best not wading at all into the whole manner of whether Palmer or modern libertarian ideology most resembles the liberals or the conservatives of yesteryear. I think the resemblance is to conservatives/tories, libertarians like you and Palmer think the resemblance is to the liberals. Let's agree to disagree on the issue.
Regarding the Wikipedia entry on classical liberalism, I also believe that is not neutral, and will edit it to make it neutral at a later date. - Kitteneatkitten 18:29, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Please also see the Wikipedia page on neutrality: "We sometimes give an alternative formulation of the non-bias policy: assert facts, including facts about opinions — but don't assert opinions themselves."
It is an opinon, not a fact, that Palmer is a "classical liberal."
- Kitteneatkitten 20:47, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Sajita, I have no problem with Palmer calling himself a liberal (or Milton Friedman). My view is that this would be the right word to use in Germany or Russia, though not the right word in the USA or Great Britian, the two major main English-speaking countries. Here I think he is best described only as a libertarian, which has the dual advantages of being in wide use and being neutral. There is also no dispute as to the accuracy of calling Palmer a libertarian, he uses the word.
My problem is with the libertarian habit of using the words libertarian and classical liberal interchangably.
Now to answer your questions:
--Is it an opinion, not a fact, that Palmer is a "libertarian" or a "free trader" or a "gay-rights advocate" or a "military conscription opponent"?
---All facts. I suppose some gays might view Palmer's belief that firing people just because they are gay should be legal means he really isn't a gay-rights advocate, but we ought not get off on such a tangent here :)
--Is it an opinion, not a fact, that he has worked to abolish military conscription, or to legalize drugs, or to promote the rights of gays, or promote free trade, or to undermine totalitarian dictatorships?
---These are all facts again.
--If he/she would google the term, what would he/she find?
---I actually did google the term, and I found that it was almost entirely a phrase used by libertarian writers. I found no instances of a prominant nonlibertarian using the phrase to describe a modern American libertarian such as Palmer. There may be one or two such citations out there, but not enough to justify using the word when the word "libertarian" also can be used and is not controversial.
Now regarding tories v. liberals, Palmer's views on some issues are analogous to positions held by early liberals, while others more closely reflect those of tories, for example his opposition to imperialism and public funding of education. It is a question of which of these positions are more important (as well as how close they really are). In my opinion on essential issues he more closely resembles early tories and conservatives, in your opinion and obviously his he more resembles the liberals of yore.
We both have opinions about what liberal means, and whether modern libertarians are true to the ideals of early liberals. Either way, this is not an issue that should be stated as a fact, especially given the fact that a neutral term is readily available. Kitteneatkitten 21:50, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I also find this a silly discussion. They call themselves classical liberals. They have some good reason to do so. Other people call them classical liberals. So they're called classical liberals. People dispute about terms all the time -- even Kitten's supposedly "neutral" term - libertarian - is disputed. Some people who call themselves libertarians say other people who also call themselves libertarians aren't. (That's why some of them now use the name "left-libertarians," kind of like "classical liberals.") Same with labels like socialist, conservative, populist, etc., etc. I vote to use both terms in this discussion. Kitten's approach -- to say "he calls himself X" could also be applied to the term "libertarian." So he'd write, "He has promoted views that he calls libertarian." Elegant. Not. -- Politophile 01:53, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Palmer indentifies himself as a libertarian. That alone means the word is perferable to a word whose usage is in dispute. And no, it is not silly, if you are someone who rejects the libertarian scheme to equate their views to those of Jefferson, Paine, and other early liberal figures who would view the ideology of modern libertarians with disdain.
As a compromise, we could include a section on whether libertarians like Palmer are really liberal. I think it would be simpler to just use the word libertarian and avoid mentioning the conflict over the phrase entirely. Kitteneatkitten 00:39, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I would compromise over the term if we use both in a clear way. If Ludwig von Mises, author of the book "Liberalism," was a liberal, and Palmer translates his books, then he is promoting liberal ideas. But Kitteneatkitten would be upset, and with some reason, since "liberal" is used differently in the U.S. and that might be confusing. So people add the modifier "classical" to avoid confusion. As to whether "libertarian" and "classical liberal" mean the same thing, I'm agnostic. But if Mises was a liberal, and Palmer promotes his books, then Palmer is promoting "liberal ideas," as well as "libertarian ideas." I'll compromise by adding, as I did, "the promotion of libertarian and classical liberal ideas and policies."-- Politophile 02:34, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Isn't it obviously wrong that this page "doesn't cite any sources"? There are as of the current revision 27 footnotes to external documents, nearly all of which are either published articles or official statements of various types. I'm afraid to remove a tag since I'm not really a Wikipedia big shot, but really... What's going on here? Kuznicki 15:25, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I removed "What a joke he is. He defines himself by his orientation more than anything else." from the previous version of the page, as it is derisive commentary, rather than a factual claim.
I cleaned up a lot of self-promotional hooey, the sort of thing that creeps into biographical entries when they are obviously written by the people profiled. It's important to ensure Wikipedia doesn't become a collection of resumes. I also added the one important matter that distinguishes Palmer from virtually all the other libertarians profiled on this site: his position on the Iraq war.
A standard biography does not run on for thousands of words. And I would refer you to the same neutral point of view policy. You obviously are not neutral, although why this guy has been such a cause for controversy must remain a mystery, at least to me.
It is ridiculous that the entry on a relative unknown, such as Tom Palmer, should run longer than that of Murray Rothbard, and rival in length and detail the entries on Hayek, von Mises, and other giants of libertarianism. I have cut down this article and attempted to add information that the original author -- obviously Palmer himself -- did not wish to see include. I might point out that the practice of subjects writing their own entries is quite beyond the pale -- or should be. Rothbard 19:20, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
The real question is: is Tom Palmer's mother present?
The removal of the material relating to Palmer's position on the Iraq war is outrageous. It is documented from his own blog, and your attempt to "edit" reality is contrary the rules and spirit of Wikipedia.
Concur. I'm going to have to side with the "more (cited/supported) information is better" in most cases, including this one. Please don't needlessly hack and chop based on other entries. If we have factual NPOV info to present, please include it while adhering to NPOV, and cite the source. "Let's not bicker and argue about who killed whom!" --
Dymaxion
04:40, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
I must object to the edits of my material, all of which is sourced, and all of which is relevant. Either Willmcw or Tom Palmer himself is deleting documented material on account of a clear bias. It is obvious, furthermore, that Palmer himself clearly wrote the original version of this entry, which is nearly identical to the one posted on his personal weblog, or else someone who is simply determined to substitute puffery for a real biographical entry. The notice at the top of the entry says it needs editing, yet every attempt to edit it is vandalized. What gives? I appeal to whatever rules may exist designed to preserve Wikipedia's objectivity to keep this vandal from persisting. - Rothbard 21:11, September 21, 2005 (UTC)
This is rather annoying. "Rothbard" is clearly vandalising the entry with the intent to attack Palmer. It's a shame that he's misusing a fine tool like the Wikipedia to pursue his personal feud with Palmer. -- Menger
'Rothbard' vandalism on this entry is an attack on Wikipedia neutrality. I have added the site to watch list, as it seems others, too, because one person is vandalizing site and linking to unsubstantiated claims apparently written by the same person. I checked each link and none supported claim made in the text changes made by 'Rothbard'. Palmer was opposed to immediate withdrawal of all foreign troops in April 2004, but that does not justify saying that he is "opposed" to withdrawal. Words like 'immediate' and 'now' have meaning and should not be used to distort a meaning. ('Immediate' in April 2004 is not the same as 'immediate' in September 2005.) The so-called "Palmer Plan" was taken from a sentence out of context, as I contacted Dr Palmer and he pointed me to full context here: http://www.tomgpalmer.com/archives/018290.php. That is dishonest to take a sentence out of context, call it a "plan" and then insert into an encyclopedia entry. If posting criticism (and why not?), criticisms should be honest ones. Also the claim that he wantes 'the U.S. to stay until the insurgents are militarily defeated" links to an entry on Justin Raimondo's web site (who has a vendetta against Palmer) that then links to a short entry about terrorists in Saudi Arabia who cut off the head of an American worker there, not about insurgents in Iraq. Again, that is not good policy or appropriate for an encyclopedia entry. Insurgents in Iraq were not mentioned even once there. An encyclopedia should provide a reliable source of information presented from a neutral point of view, not an opportunity to carry out a personal feud, as "Rothbard" (who seems likely to be Justin Raimondo, as same person made many edits on Raimondo entry in Wikipedia, or at least very close to him; also 'Rothbard' in comments above has taken credit for unsigned changes, so it looks like unsigned changes are from him, too) has done, first trying to delete such items as educational background, then deleting more material, then adding claims that are not, as one finds when following them, even true. The 'Rothbard' vandalism against this entry is discouraging for reliability of Wikipedia entries and should be combated. I am asking others to put this entry on Watchlists to check for more vandalism. Honest criticism and links to criticisms are of course part of honest entries, but the 'Rothbard' changes do not meet such a test.-- RBrancusi 19:32, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
I was alerted to the monomaniacal and intense efforts to disfigure this entry, all evidently from one person with quite obviously too much time on his hands. After going through the various changes I found that the "Rothbard" changes (and those that are almost surely the same person without signing on) are a part of a hate campaign. First Rothbard takes down the educational list, which, as noted above, is certainly a standard feature of a biography. Then he complains that it is "thousands of words". Then that it is longer than an entry on someone else. Then he follows with change after change to introduce his own point of view, his attacks, etc. When those are rolled back, he comes back and deletes material that is historically interesting and relevant, regarding Palmer's efforts in communist ruled countries to spread liberalism. And he adds back distortions of Palmer's views on Iraq, as is evident to people who take the time to review the links. It would not be a problem to indicate that Palmer's views are sometiems controversial, but to have the author of the attacks put those attacks in himself as claims of fact, although they are not supported by documentation, even on the web sites to which he links! Something very strange is going on here. Wikipedia is not a place for people to launch revenge attacks. We all use it as a source of information, although the sort of attacks from Rothbard show that its wise to be cautious when reading it. I intend to visit this site occasionally and ensure that it serves the function of being a reference, based on Wikipedia standards of a NPOV. -- Sajita 03:52, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
I always hate to step in the middle of a good mud-slinging fest, for fear of getting splattered, but I have to say I read this talkback page, I looked through some of the history, and I thought about this, and I don't think any of the players here are trying to vandalise. It looks to me like two organised gangs of editors that BOTH have a problem understanding NPOV. A cooldown or maybe this article should just be deleted? It does seem to be true that the subject is of very marginal importance... Arker 04:16, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
It is obvious now that "Rothbard" is Juistin Raimondo, for a simple reason. He has made extensive edits (in terms of adding material) to Raimondo page, but has only made deletions and distortions to a page of someone Raimondo hates and has vilified in disgusting language. I disagree with Arker; the malicious edits are made by one person, under the name of "Rothbard." (Raimondo is on his page cited as author of a biography of Rothbard.) Palmer, if you like him or hate him, helped greatly to spread classical liberal ideas in the Soviet Empire and is well known for that; he is one of the few libertarians now active in the Arabic world, as well. In addition, he has written on many topics and has been a notable figure in the classical liberal movement. He made some critical comments under his own name on Justin Raimondo for his views, and now Raimondo is seeking revenge and every day changes this entry to disfigure and distort it. Note that others have not made similar attacks on Raimondo, even if they disagree with him. Rothbard-Raimondo has made it clear that he will use any reason to attack Palmer and to disfigure this Wikipedia entry, all in violation of the purposes of Wikipedia, which create open exchange of information and ideas.
Sajita
06:06, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Not only is it obvious to any reasonable person that "Rothbard" is Raimondo (it wouldn't be the first time that Raimondo had written under a pseudonym while denying it), but it is plainly obvious as well that Rothbard/Raimondo has nothing to offer to this page (or, indeed, Wikipedia) than attacks and smears. Further, it is obvious that Raimondo and his ilk are content to spend their days making sure Dr. Palmer's page stays vandalized. I've edited the page a number of times, both to clean up the grammar, and to make sure that reasonable criticism--and not advertisements to kooky websites--appear. I linked to Jeffrey Friedman's criticism of Palmer and libertarianism, and that criticism is both reasonable and pertinent to the page. Rothbard, however, would rather delete that criticism, and in its place put a link to his own take on "the Palmer plan" for Iraq (which is not a plan at all, and is taken wholly out of context on Raimondo's, errr, Rothbard's webpage. In short, if Palmer's enemies would refrain from deleting legitimate content (i.e., Palmer's work in eastern Europe, for which I provided documentation; Friedman's criticism, etc.), and refrain from linking to irrelevant asides that happen to appear on their own websites, this page would be a valuable addition to Wikipedia and libertarianism.-- Freemarkets 11:49, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
I think this is becoming the most talked about topic in the Wikipedia, if it isn't already. It surprises me to see how many people are involved in this little battle. In fact, it's so interesting I've decided to get involved as well.
The entry is by no means relevant as it is now. We can't even begin to talk about NPOV and relevance of information when words like "butt boy" and "hooey" are so frequent in these pages. Even so, I don't think it should be deleted.
I have a rather clear idea of what a useful Wikipedia page should look like. Although I don't intend to edit the entry myself (yet) I will share my views with you. I will assume that none of us have any ulterior motives.
It is generally very good to stick to the facts. Things like education, activity, visits to foreign countries and so on which can be factually proved fit very well in this category. The removal of such information which happened early in the history of this entry is something I simply can't understand.
Considering that we are talking about a living person I don't know if you should be focusing so much on his ideology. Think about it for a second. When we discuss the ideas of Adam Smith, Karl Marx, Julius Caesar and so on, we do so by weighing their life's work through careful studies and choosing those things which made a difference. Tom Palmer might not even have decided on some issues yet. Reduction ad absurdum: What will happen with all your hard work if Tom Palmer suddenly decides to become a Muslim extremist? He's got all the time in the world to change his mind, you know. You guys are just wasting your time discussing his recent writings, especially since you seem to be focusing on tiny quotes from tiny articles and not major works. The kind of information I've seen in these pages belongs in tabloids, not in an encyclopedia. Chrisn 19:27, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
I made some edits to this page to remove the "Iraq Controversy" section. It's complete BS. There's no controversy. Aside from that, it's fine. Jstrummer 02:49, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
I see that the latest act of vandalism from the Tom Palmer Fan Club doesn't even come with an attempt to justify itself -- someone calling themselves "Strummer" (who has never done any Wikipedia work before this) simply goes in, chops and cuts out the offending paragraph, and cuts and runs. I appeal to the Wikipedia community to put a stop to this. Rothbard 03:40, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Finally, I don't know why Raimondo is upset that Dr. Plamer might have a "fan club" (I've never attended a meeting of that club, but I'm told it numbers in the many thousands in and around the DC area). My only guess is that he isn't important enough, or taken seriously enough, to have one himself. In any event, the existence of such a fan club shouldn't affect how this page is edited.-- Freemarkets 21:58, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Nobody commented on my last entry so I presumed everybody agreed on the role of an encyclopedia. The Wikipedia is an "increasingly important part of the public record" as you said yourself, Rothbard, but it is an Encyclopedia. Please look up the word in a dictionary.
Discussions about current events and current policies belong in newspapers and on forums, not here. You cannot say for sure how Tom Palmer or Cato are looking on the Iraq War or any other issue for that matter. Even if they told you themselves it still wouldn't be reliable information because only time will tell. Chrisn 17:06, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
The entry of yet another Palmer sock-puppet onto the scene shows just how dishonest the "editing" attempts since Willmcw's admirable edit have been. I would point to the addition of the nonsequiteur "but Palmer is not affiliated with the U.S. Libertarian Party" as particularly telling: mentioning the LP at all was meant, if I'm not mistaken, to indicate why Palmer's views on Iraq are considered controversial in the libertarian movement in general, without attributing antiwar sentiment to all libertarians without exception. All the other additions by our latest anonymous editor were designed to put Palmer in the best possible light. If this sort of vandalism continues, I'm wondering: is there a way to arbitrate or decide this issue? I'm also wondering if it is possible to simply delete the entry completely, which is another (albeit less attractive) option. - Rothbard 22:27, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Welcome to anarchy in action.
You can mark it for deletion quite easily. However, as it's already gone that route once before, and stayed because of a 'hung jury' result, that might not be in accord with the customary (dare I say 'common?') laws here. I'm not confident enough in my understanding of the process to say, or I might have done it myself already. There is a mediation option also, I recommend starting here and doing some reading before acting however. Arker 05:56, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
No anonymous "sock-puppet" here. All edits undertaken with the IP 24.119.184.135 are my work. I've never had a registered Wiki user account before tonight because I've never needed one; my only edits in the past have been few, and mostly grammatical in nature. I came across this entry yesterday, and while it's true that I'm acquainted with Tom Palmer (and have written nice things about him), my edits were intended only to bring proper context to an entry that was apparently designed to cast the subject in an explicitly negative light by omitting such explanatory context outright. There's nothing wrong with bringing up any topic that is notable with regards to the subject of the entry, particularly something Palmer is as well-known for as his position on Iraq, but the original entry left out crucial information and as a result misstated Palmer's actual views. Eric.d.dixon 06:24, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
"The way it was previously worded would make it seem to non-libertarians that Palmer's views had contravened some kind of libertarian litmus test, negating any claim Palmer might have to the term "libertarian." This is clearly not the case, so a revision was in order. If anyone has a better idea for a revision that would make this point, be my guest. Eric.d.dixon 06:34, 3 October 2005 (UTC)"
Incidentally, I'm not sure why adding a caveat about Palmer's non-affiliation with the Libertarian Party would be seen as a non-sequitur; the LP platform doesn't represent the views of the majority of libertarians. The way it was previously worded would make it seem to non-libertarians that Palmer's views had contravened some kind of libertarian litmus test, negating any claim Palmer might have to the term "libertarian." This is clearly not the case, so a revision was in order. If anyone has a better idea for a revision that would make this point, be my guest. Eric.d.dixon 06:34, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
The Libertarian Party reference isn't the only problem with that section of the entry as it originally stood. It was grossly inaccurate in a couple of other places. First, Palmer hasn't denounced "the antiwar movement," he has denounced a few very specific people within that movement. Justin Raimondo and antiwar.com do not constitute the antiwar movement; they don't even constitute a representative sample. And the reason for this denunciation is entirely relevant -- he sees them as rooting for those who kill American soldiers. The entry as originally written makes it seem as though Palmer condemns those who call for peace, when in fact he condemns those he sees as celebrating the loss of American life. This is also not his "most visible role"; that would have to be his actual work in Iraq, attempting to spread ideas. Second, Palmer's quote to "find and kill all of them" does not apply to all insurgents, as the original entry would make it seem. The quote comes from an entry in Palmer's weblog responding to a beheading in Saudi Arabia, and is about "radical Islamicist" terrorism, not about insurgents in Iraq. Finally, Palmer's opinion doesn't fully "contradict" the Cato Institute's opinion, but differs on the length of time he thinks may be necessary. Palmer has said he doesn't want a long occupation, but that he wants a safe retreat. Perhaps Palmer places more importance on the safety of the retreat than the authors of the study Cato commissioned, but this doesn't indicate that Palmer likes the occupation in any kind of imperialist or nation-building sense. I have reverted the entry back to my edited version, and will continue to do so unless someone can tell me how providing this context is incompatible with NPOV. Eric.d.dixon 17:58, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
The very last edit, made by someone who did not sign in, seems to me to be the basis for a reasonable compromise. I tweaked it a bit: the contention that Palmer's views have been controversial "among antiwar activists" is not true: most antiwar activists have never heard of Palmer. Only a libertarian would know his name, and even in those circles he's not exactly a household word. I changed it, therefore, to "controversial among libertarians." I also changed the part about how he's supposedly been criticized for going to Iraq and talking about "constitutionalism": that misrepresents what is clearly stated in the link provided. As I understand it, the criticism was directed at Palmer for advising the current Iraqi government, which many libertarians regard as a morally and politically questionable activity. All in all, however, a good edit, neutral in effect if not in intent. Rothbard
First of all, if there's a three revert rule, "Rothbard" has long since crossed it -- in most cases without explanation. Just looking at the most recent 50 edits to the page, we can see him reverting on September 30 at 16:41, October 1 at 7:53, October 1 at 19:25, October 2 at 4:53, October 2 at 7:40, October 2 at 13:54, October 3 at 16:44, and October 3 at 20:37. If we count the reversion he made to the new "compromise" paragraph on October 4 at 14:28, that makes triple the allowed reversion count for one user, and within a five-day span. I'd check back further into the edit history, but really, isn't that way more than enough?
Second, it's been pointed out multiple times that Palmer's criticism of Raimondo and antiwar.com don't constitute a denunciation of "the antiwar movement". Throw Jane Fonda into the mix and you still don't get anywhere close to a movement, particularly when Palmer is on record as praising others within the movement. Rothbard's continuing edits on this point are dishonest to the point of absurdity.
Third, I was forthcoming from the beginning that I knew Tom and that I had written nice things about him. Still, the quote "Rothbard" pulled from my blog is also misquoted. In the blog entry in question, I had quoted a long letter written to my best friend, giving him my take on the feud between Palmer and Justin Raimondo. At the end, I said in conclusion: "So that's what I think. Tom Palmer rules. Don't be hatin'." (Note the lack of the exclamation point "Rothbard" so generously provided.) Think of this with the same sense of cultural paradox that would exist in me, a fat, bald, pasty white guy, greeting the friend I was writing to with a colloquial "What up, G?" However lame it might be, it's something we do. The sentiment is genuine, though, so this is really neither here nor there -- more than anything, it serves, in a small way, to highlight the lack of rigor "Rothbard" brings to the table when employing quotations.
But if I'm a Palmer partisan, attempting to prevent the spread of inaccurate claims about him in a source prided for NPOV, "Rothbard" is all the more a partisan. His edit history is filled with tending to the entries of Justin Raimondo and antiwar.com (including correcting the year of Raimondo's birth), and even in some of the other entries to which "Rothbard" has contributed, his edits have involved adding bibliographical references to Justin Raimondo books, or adding Murray Rothbard's critique of Objectivism to the Objectivism entry. There's nothing necessarily wrong with any of these edits, except that together they demonstrate that "Rothbard" brings a single point of view to Wikipedia, spreading it to every entry he touches -- however much he might try to claim neutrality for himself. It hardly matters that "Rothbard" claims not to be Justin Raimondo, if he has so thoroughly devoted himself to Raimondo's cause.
As for the new "compromise" entry, it looks fine to me, as long as it remains free of the inaccurate edits "Rothbard" continues to make. I had assumed that more factual context was better, but a stripped-down entry shouldn't be a controversy for either side as long as it adheres to NPOV -- something "Rothbard" still tries to prevent. Eric.d.dixon 04:15, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
What I care about is Wikipedia. Palmer's entry is a vanity article: that is, it was written by him. It should be deleted, in its entirety, pronto.
As long as mediation appears to be stalled, I'll take another stab at responding to the claims made above by "Rothbard".
It's an attempt at revisionist history to claim that Palmer had "clear support for the invasion" -- he opposed the war from the start. His support for the continuing occupation is an attempt to make the best of a bad situation, or, as summed up in a common aphorism, "How to turn a seeming disadvantage to our advantage?" The war was a bad idea -- Palmer has always maintained this. But since we're there, it may be possible to help make the country a better place, hence his effort to spread libertarian ideas in Iraq, and advise members of the Iraqi parliament on how to embed principles of liberty in their nascent attempt at building a new government. Palmer may be wrong about any positive effects his efforts in Iraq may have, but to say that this isn't his view, or his goal, is either mistaken or simply dishonest. This could be compared to the time Milton Friedman visited Chile to advise Pinochet's new government. Friedman was also the recipient of harsh criticism from within the libertarian movement for this -- he was accused of supporting Pinochet and his government because he had advised them on free-market principles. This is, correctly, a fact worthy of inclusion in Milton Friedman's Wikipedia entry, but the entry also includes Friedman's own defense of his actions. Not to say that Palmer is anywhere near as notable a figure as Friedman, but this would serve as a good model for Palmer's entry.
Second, as to Palmer's denunciations of members of the antiwar movement -- it's clear from the source that Palmer is criticizing particular members of the antiwar movement, regardless of era, for one particular reason. Palmers sees them as rooting for the other side rather than simply advocating peace. This is the reason for Palmer's denunciation of Justin Raimondo, antiwar.com, Jane Fonda, and William Kunstler -- they represent a particular *type* of antiwar activist that Palmer sees as reprehensible. Palmer's praise of Joan Baez represents a different *type* of antiwar activist that Palmer admires. Although the blog entry in question has Palmer praising only Joan Baez, anyone with basic reading comprehension skills can see that both his denunciations and praise stem from specific reasons, and that those same reasons would apply to others. It's pretty safe to say that Palmer would criticize *any* antiwar activist who roots for the Iraqi insurgency against American troops, and that he would admire any antiwar activist who works toward peace for both sides. This is way too much context to put in the entry, but it should suffice to say that Palmer has denounced "some of" the antiwar movement -- even if it doesn't give Palmer's reason for the denunciation.
"Rothbard" claims above that "Even when Palmer's own immortal words are cited, this is somehow interpreted as 'twisting' his words." The only quotation that might fit this charge that I can think of is from a prior paragraph by "Rothbard," which included this phrase: "advocating that U.S. war policy toward the insurgents must be to 'find and kill all of them before they kill all the rest of us, Muslim and non-Muslim alike.'" The quote is accurate, but a look at the source for the quote quickly reveals that it has nothing to do with Iraqi insurgents; it was about a beheading in Saudi Arabia. So, the quote is specifically about those Palmer views as "Islamicist terrorists". This category may fit some insurgents, but certainly not all of them, and to claim that this quote of Palmer's is about Iraqi insurgents is simply wrong. The source doesn't support the claim.
Finally, "Rothbard" keeps calling everyone else "sock puppets". I don't know for sure who "Rothbard" is, and I'm not sure who "Menger" or "Freemarkets" are either. But I've been forthcoming from the beginning about my own identity and my own biases -- that I know Palmer, and I like him. Still, my only agenda here is accuracy. I think that "Rothbard" has his own conclusions about what Palmer believes, and is determined to shape this Wikipedia entry to fit his own preconceptions, regardless of the evidence. Eric.d.dixon 03:43, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
I am protecting this page, because this dispute is going nowhere fast. Editors involved in this dispute who are willing to accept mediation please sign below. ⟳ausa کui × 15:39, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Sign here:
It looks like he's not interested in mediating this. If anyone is interested in taking this to the next stage, please contact me privately (email) and I will advise. ⟳ausa کui × 23:34, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
I think that, if controversial issues are to be raised, it should be undertaken in a neutral manner. The anonymous Houston based person (we can call him SK) has tried to insert unsubstantiated charges about Palmer supporting theocracy, favoring US military victory, etc., on the grounds that other people have bitterly attacked him. That is not a neutral approach appropriate to an encyclopedia. Since a neutral approach was once in it, but was changed by SK to smuggle in his own point of view, it is better to just delete that section. One person (SK: 71.131.34.206, 71.131.36.34) evidently waits until he thinks others don't have this on their watch lists and then strikes to vandalize it as part of a vendetta. That is not what an encyclopedia entry is for. Information should be put in a neutral form. This is not: "He has been further criticized by Raimondo for calling for a "military victory" by the U.S. in Iraq and helping to construct a "theocracy" under the guise of "advising" members of the Iraqi parliament." (71.131.34.206) It implies that Palmer has called for a "military victory" by the U.S. (when the only cited document calls for a victory against terrorists by the Iraqis) and that he has helped to construct a theocracy. Also, "under the guise of" is a statement of bad faith. Those are not compatible with the NPOV suitable for an encyclopedia. Until SK can behave himself, the section should be deleted. Or it should be as it was before he struck, with a neutral point of view.
It is tiresome to have the same people (SK and "Dick Clark Mises") vandalizing a page by inserting unsourced materials or - latest attempt - a special hate page dedicated to Stephen Kinsella's personal grudge against the subject of this entry. Gossip pages and stalking pages are not serious sources for an encyclopedia. They have inserted - and others have accepted - links to articles that criticize or even smear (like Raimondo) Palmer. Is that not enough? Every time they come they insist on another bit of hateful smearing. Do that on a blog, not on an encyclopedia. An encyclopedia is not the place to carry out a grudge - it is a resource for online research and links to serious sources, such as newspapers, not to specially created grudge blogs. -- Sajita 19:07, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
This is so pathetic. Kinsella, "Dick Clark," and the rest of the wackos should not be allowed to advertise their site on this encyclopedia. If you want to sit around and obsess, feel free, but do it on your own time and your own dime. Buy some blog ads if you want to increase your traffic; don't free-ride on the wikipedia site. (unsigned comment by User:69.140.65.136)
Sir (or Ma'am): Please refrain from making personal attacks, as per WP:NPA. Also, please assume good faith. I have absolutely no affiliation with the website in question. I have never contributed to it, and I didn't know of its existence until I saw it on this article. Therefore, any accusations that I am trying to increase "my" traffic are wrongheaded. The source in question is notable (since N. Stephan Kinsella has been deemed notable by the community), and it is certainly not given any undue weight in the article (it is not cited in the article's body, and the link is in the appropriate place). Dick Clark 21:26, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Ok, ok. I take it back. You're not a wacko. You're totally reasonable, and not creepy at all. In any event, this hate site is not notable, and inserting it here does not help the entry or the encyclopedia. It only increases traffic to the site that's run by your friends. I think it's safe to say that anyone who reads the content on that garbage site doesn't need to "assume good faith" when its proprietors and their friends try to advertise it on Wikipedia.
User:BoggedDownHerbie removed a bit of text citing Antiwar.com which was unfavorable to Palmer. Again, we have a first time editor who magically knows to comment his edit, and who sounds suspiciously like the sockpuppets above in said comment. As I noted in my edit comment, Antiwar.com is a notable entity, especially in the context of libertarian foreign policy positions. Dick Clark 22:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
The obsession with Palmer that those guys show is weird. Weird like unhealthy. Why is "DickClarkMises" so concerned that he only links to or shows attack, which are to cult publications and not generally helpful to an encyclopedia. So he argued with some "Rothbardians"? A link to major media is one thing and a link to a cult publication is another. I can see some of the links, but linking to a 'hate blog' seems to me not very helpful for a scholarly resource. Why the obsession? And why use an encyclopedia to carry out such a weird obsession? And Kinsella is as notable as any random person with an obsession to stalk someone else. No more. (unsigned comment by anonymous user at 149.225.62.52)
Is there no criticism that's out of bounds for a link from this encyclopedia? Do we really need a link to a site that calls Dr. Palmer "La Palmer," "P-Dog," and a "dimwit-serioso"? Are readers going to learn much by going to a site that calls Palmer an "utter idiot and/or liar"? Or by reading that "Palmer is trapped with a tortured, distorted perspective on reality". It's clear from an even cursory reading of this page that it's nothing but the incoherent ramblings of a VERY disturbed pseudo-intellectual. That person should not be able to free-ride on either Wikipedia or Dr. Palmer, and as such the page ought to be omitted, or submitted as its own entry to rise or fall as the readers and editors determine is appropriate.--Sopranos11 (previous unsigned comment by User:Sopranos11)
Criticism is ok but linking a blog dedicated to smearing someone on his encyclopedia entry seems to me to be just plain silly and an encouragement to name calling and other similar behaviour. -- 158.143.169.8 15:38, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I find Wikipedia very useful when I want to find out the date Margaret Thatcher was elected, or the population of Iceland. But of course the obvious problem with Wikipedia is that it gets used by people with an ax to grind. That's bad enough when it's Bush lovers and haters fighting over the biography of the president of the United States. It's farce when people with too much time on their hands spend their days writing personal attacks on relatively obscure scholars. As for this "Palmer Periscope" link, I mean really. How can an *encyclopedia* link to a blog that calls a scholar "La Palmer," "P-Dog," "dimwit-serioso" and "Tommy boy"? Let's see . . . imagine the Milton Friedman entry offering as a serious resource a site that calls him "Uncle Miltie," "Pinochet's butt boy," and "Jew-boy Friedman." People who value Wikipedia should block this site and police this nonsense. 69.143.116.143 20:32, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
The question is: does the "Palmer Periscope" with its repeated inflammed attacks on Palmer ("P-Dog," "dimwit-serioso", "Tommy boy" and so on) meet the standard for substantive and relevant criticism? I think no matter how "notable" one thinks this fellow Kinsella is (?), reasonable people should agree that Kinsella's personal and vile rants against the subject of this entry are not material worthy of an encyclopedia entry. -- 82.154.211.222 04:04, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, it seems that those in favor of deleting the link in question do not wish to engage in further dialogue on this talk page. While I would much prefer the interested parties coming to some compromise position on this, I am afraid that Will Beback was correct when he suggested an RfC to solve this dispute. Dick Clark 21:02, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I'm responding to your request. I've read through the article and talk page, Tom's personal home page and the critical page in question, and my impression is that the link essentially a general bashing page, and not very respectable. So I'd prefer not to include it within the article. I don't think that these kinds of links are as important for articles about persons as they are for topics, such as politics, etc.
It would perhaps be suitable to instead write in the article text itself Who are his main critics and what are their main arguments. That would then in turn motivate external links. Regards, Fred- Chess 18:00, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Oh I should also add that this is just my opinion; I don't claim this to be an official statement of Wikipedia. / Fred- Chess 18:02, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
What is a problem is that the "criticism" inserted by POV-Vandals is in the form of juvenile blog remarks. Jeffrey Friedman's essay is serious criticism, but what DickClarkMises insists on inserting is not. Wikipedia should be more than just Google; if you want to find blog comments about someone or something, go to Google; if you want to find substantive scholarship, go to Wikipedia. But DickClarkMises is working very hnard to make the two hard to distinguish. -- Sajita 02:29, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
It appears a lot has happened here since I last stopped by. The page didn't change for months, and I stopped checking in. At any rate, after reviewing the last few months of changes, and the new discussion on this page, I feel I should disclose something. When I first stepped in to help edit this page, back during the edit wars instigated by "Rothbard," I almost added the Palmer Periscope link to the article myself, at the same time I added a few other external links. I certainly didn't intend to do this with the intention of raising the quality of discourse associated with this entry, but I generally hold the view that there's nothing wrong with including a source of criticism as long as a rationale for the article subject's own views are represented -- or, at least, also linked.
The tone of the Palmer Periscope blog is enough to discredit itself in the eyes of anyone looking for substantive criticism (not to mention that I have trouble believing that anyone who calls Palmer "serioso" knows him at all), but it was something else that made me change my mind about adding the link. A friend of mine, who followed this Wikipedia edit imbroglio back when I first participated, decided to involve himself by adding a comment at the Palmer Periscope. He sent me the link to his comment the night he made it -- it was a clear, respectful analysis of the flaws in Kinsella's logic in one of his recent Periscope entries. I was curious to see if any legitimate defense could be made, so I checked the comments for that entry again the next day. My friend's comment was gone.
Kinsella is certainly under no obligation to host the comments of people who disagree with him on his blog (or his friend's blog, as the case may be). But an author deleting outright clear, respectful criticism of his writing indicates that he doesn't have much faith in the strength of his own arguments. I decided I couldn't add an external link to that site in the spirit of open dialogue, when the site in question was itself hostile to such open dialogue. Eric.d.dixon 12:06, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
What is the source for this rather wild claim other than Palmer himself?
How exactly did he smuggle them? In his suitcase? That would not be possible they would not fit. Did he drive a truck accross the Iron Curtan?
Tom likes to cultivate a sophisticated and dashing persona, but having known and worked with the guy this claim needs verification from a person besides Palmer or someone closely aligned to him.
If you are going to make claims that imply that you risked your life in acting to undermine your country's enemies, some proof ought to be provided. None ever has. Who were these recipients of copiers and fax machines? And if all he did was mislabel some boxes, good for him. Let's say just that. What was Plamer's response to these e-mails? Kitteninthebelfry 05:32, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I received an email from Dr. Palmer that was sent to him by Christine Blundell, who is the Operations Director of the Institute of Economic Affairs in London and who used to work with him. (He said he was still going through emails and would contact me again.) Her letter follows: 19th April 2006
This seems to me to be adequate evidence of the sort that Mr. Kitten demanded. Accordingly, I am reverting to the previous version. -- Sajita 01:09, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I am satisfied. Thank you, Sajita, for taking the trouble to inquire about and clarify the matter. Kitteneatkitten 22:45, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
On another issue, I do not think the word "classical liberal" should be used in this article. The phrase itself is not neutral and never in my experience used outside the speech and works of modern American libertarians.
The phrase implies that modern liberals have somehow deviated from the principles of 19th century liberals, but that modern libertarians such as Mr. Palmer stay true to these principles.
For this reason I am changing all references to "classical liberal" to either "libertarian" when the reference is to libertarians, and "liberal" when the reference is to figures from before 1900. These terms are both in wide circulation and not at all loaded words. Palmer's employer in fact describes itself as "libertarian."
I also propose, if you disagree with this change, that the issue be mediated rather than us changing things back and forth. Kitteneatkitten 22:54, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
(my post begins here - kitten) Your proposed compromise is really not one at all, as all it proposes to do is mix a neutral word with one that is not neutral. It would be like me proposing to alternate "libertarian" with "classical reactionary."
My concern is that calling Mr. Palmer a "classical liberal" implies that he and his fellow libertarians are true to America's liberal heritage (Jefferson, Hume, Locke, et al.,) while those commonly described today as liberals today in America are not. This is not a neutral point of view, even if the level of bias is toned down as you propose. I maintain that Mr. Palmer is not a classical liberal at all, and if he is a classical anything he is a "classical reactionary," that is a steady defender of the powerful against the weak. Just as calling Mr. Palmer a "classical reactionary" anywhere in the article is not neutral, the same applies to calling him a "classical liberal." This is not the proper place to decide if libertarians such as Mr. Palmer or social democrats such as Rep. Bernie Sanders are the real heirs of Jefferson and Locke, thus the neutral term libertarian should be used.
That the Cato Institute also wants to use the same biased termonology as you and Mr. Palmer is neither relevant nor any surprise.
PS - don't forget to sign your posts with a four "~" marks so I know whom I'm talking to.
Kitteneatkitten 01:09, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I also do not understand Mr. or Ms. Kitten's concern. He or she seems to think that the term "liberal" is a term of praise, rather than simply a descriptive term. Kitten tells us that he or she does not like Dr. Palmer's ideas (which Kitten calls "reactionary," which is always an insult and not something many people would say of themselves or of people they like), but if he would consult Wikipedia's entry on classical liberalism, he would find that it certainly applies to Dr. Palmer and also to his institute. The term is very widely used to refer to a belief in limited government, protection of private property, religious toleration, etc., etc. It does not imply that modern liberals are not heirs of liberalism, but only that there are various heirs, including "modern liberals" and "classical liberals." That is why "classical" is added to the term, to avoid confusion with how the term is mostly used in the United States. It distinguishes a point of view that is not conservative (no laws against voluntary sexuality, free speech, drug use, immigration, for examples) and is not socialist (free markets, free trade) and is not for the welfare state. In other countries, "classical" is not necessary, as the term for that position is just "liberal." It seems that Kitten is, maybe unconsciously, inserting a point of view by arguing that "liberal" is somehow a term of praise and that the most common American usage is the right one and that the better term for Dr. Palmer's views is "reactionary," since Kitten thinks that Dr. Palmer must hate poor people, since Kitten thinks his policies would be bad for them, whereas Dr. Palmer apparently thinks that they would be beneficial for them.
If Wikipedia has an entry on classical liberalism and if the term is commonly used to describe people like Dr. Palmer and the Cato Institute, then I see no reasons why it should not be in this entry, and used as a descriptive term and with no sense that it is praise (or, for that matter, blame). I would be willing to ask for the views of others, but as Kitten has explained his or her view, I think that it is not appropriate editing, but an unfortunate introduction of a point of view into an article and I would revert to the previous version, but would accept the compromise of using both terms. "Classical liberal" is used among academics and among political writers who distinguish those views from "modern American liberalism" (or from "social liberalism"); "libertarian" is used to signify a more radical form of that view and to avoid confusion with "modern American liberalism." -- Sajita 04:23, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Sajita, as described above, your compromise is no compromise at all. If calling Palmer a "classical liberal" is not neutral, then doing so less often or in parenthesis does not change anything, the article is still biased. I would not object, however, to a line mentioning that "Palmer describes his views as classical liberalism." This is both true, gets accross the fact that this is what Palmer would like to be called, yet maintains neutrality by not actually stating as fact that Palmer is a "classical liberal."
If you don't like the analogy to "classical reactionary," how about "classical tory" or "classical conservative?" Both of these are better words to describe Mr. Palmer, if we are going to call him "classical" anything at all. I think it is best not wading at all into the whole manner of whether Palmer or modern libertarian ideology most resembles the liberals or the conservatives of yesteryear. I think the resemblance is to conservatives/tories, libertarians like you and Palmer think the resemblance is to the liberals. Let's agree to disagree on the issue.
Regarding the Wikipedia entry on classical liberalism, I also believe that is not neutral, and will edit it to make it neutral at a later date. - Kitteneatkitten 18:29, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Please also see the Wikipedia page on neutrality: "We sometimes give an alternative formulation of the non-bias policy: assert facts, including facts about opinions — but don't assert opinions themselves."
It is an opinon, not a fact, that Palmer is a "classical liberal."
- Kitteneatkitten 20:47, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Sajita, I have no problem with Palmer calling himself a liberal (or Milton Friedman). My view is that this would be the right word to use in Germany or Russia, though not the right word in the USA or Great Britian, the two major main English-speaking countries. Here I think he is best described only as a libertarian, which has the dual advantages of being in wide use and being neutral. There is also no dispute as to the accuracy of calling Palmer a libertarian, he uses the word.
My problem is with the libertarian habit of using the words libertarian and classical liberal interchangably.
Now to answer your questions:
--Is it an opinion, not a fact, that Palmer is a "libertarian" or a "free trader" or a "gay-rights advocate" or a "military conscription opponent"?
---All facts. I suppose some gays might view Palmer's belief that firing people just because they are gay should be legal means he really isn't a gay-rights advocate, but we ought not get off on such a tangent here :)
--Is it an opinion, not a fact, that he has worked to abolish military conscription, or to legalize drugs, or to promote the rights of gays, or promote free trade, or to undermine totalitarian dictatorships?
---These are all facts again.
--If he/she would google the term, what would he/she find?
---I actually did google the term, and I found that it was almost entirely a phrase used by libertarian writers. I found no instances of a prominant nonlibertarian using the phrase to describe a modern American libertarian such as Palmer. There may be one or two such citations out there, but not enough to justify using the word when the word "libertarian" also can be used and is not controversial.
Now regarding tories v. liberals, Palmer's views on some issues are analogous to positions held by early liberals, while others more closely reflect those of tories, for example his opposition to imperialism and public funding of education. It is a question of which of these positions are more important (as well as how close they really are). In my opinion on essential issues he more closely resembles early tories and conservatives, in your opinion and obviously his he more resembles the liberals of yore.
We both have opinions about what liberal means, and whether modern libertarians are true to the ideals of early liberals. Either way, this is not an issue that should be stated as a fact, especially given the fact that a neutral term is readily available. Kitteneatkitten 21:50, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I also find this a silly discussion. They call themselves classical liberals. They have some good reason to do so. Other people call them classical liberals. So they're called classical liberals. People dispute about terms all the time -- even Kitten's supposedly "neutral" term - libertarian - is disputed. Some people who call themselves libertarians say other people who also call themselves libertarians aren't. (That's why some of them now use the name "left-libertarians," kind of like "classical liberals.") Same with labels like socialist, conservative, populist, etc., etc. I vote to use both terms in this discussion. Kitten's approach -- to say "he calls himself X" could also be applied to the term "libertarian." So he'd write, "He has promoted views that he calls libertarian." Elegant. Not. -- Politophile 01:53, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Palmer indentifies himself as a libertarian. That alone means the word is perferable to a word whose usage is in dispute. And no, it is not silly, if you are someone who rejects the libertarian scheme to equate their views to those of Jefferson, Paine, and other early liberal figures who would view the ideology of modern libertarians with disdain.
As a compromise, we could include a section on whether libertarians like Palmer are really liberal. I think it would be simpler to just use the word libertarian and avoid mentioning the conflict over the phrase entirely. Kitteneatkitten 00:39, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I would compromise over the term if we use both in a clear way. If Ludwig von Mises, author of the book "Liberalism," was a liberal, and Palmer translates his books, then he is promoting liberal ideas. But Kitteneatkitten would be upset, and with some reason, since "liberal" is used differently in the U.S. and that might be confusing. So people add the modifier "classical" to avoid confusion. As to whether "libertarian" and "classical liberal" mean the same thing, I'm agnostic. But if Mises was a liberal, and Palmer promotes his books, then Palmer is promoting "liberal ideas," as well as "libertarian ideas." I'll compromise by adding, as I did, "the promotion of libertarian and classical liberal ideas and policies."-- Politophile 02:34, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Isn't it obviously wrong that this page "doesn't cite any sources"? There are as of the current revision 27 footnotes to external documents, nearly all of which are either published articles or official statements of various types. I'm afraid to remove a tag since I'm not really a Wikipedia big shot, but really... What's going on here? Kuznicki 15:25, 18 September 2007 (UTC)