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What is the source of the assertion that Scott said he could only trust Evans, Lashly, and Crean? The original account of Crean's solo trip in this article was factually garbled so I am kind of distrustful of this other statement as well. Dr.frog 12:53, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
I have now passed the article GA, so congratulations after all your hard work. I am writing a formal report for the archive, and will let you know where this is when I've done it.
The only late changes I've made are in the lead, where I've extended or combined sentences, adopted British spellings and styles, re-routed the open boat journey (you had it going through Drake's Passage) and other bits of tweaking. I think it's OK now.
You probably need a break, but when you feel ready for a new challenge, if you want another Antarctic project and haven't one in mind, take a look at the list on my userpage This is a summary of projects that I may, or may not, get round to. You are very welcome to pick one of these, and I'd be willing to assist. Don't pick Ernest Joyce, though, as I'm doing some work on that at present.
Also, for your interest, the two big projects, Captain Scott and Imperial Trans-Antarctic Expedition, will be at FAC and peer review respectively, in the next day or two. Brianboulton ( talk) 12:55, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
The review discussion and report is on Talk:Tom Crean/GA1 if you want to read it Brianboulton ( talk) 13:19, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
As part of the freshening-up process in readiness for an eventual run at FAC, I've played around with the images a bit. I've added a pic of the training ship HMS Impregnable, changed the Hut Point interior shot for an external one (I'm tired of looking at that fossilized pair of trousers), and changed the James Caird launching for a general shot of the Endurance party. I've also shifted the mugshot in the Terra Nova section over to the left, for variety's sake. These changes are by way of experiment - we can always revert to the former images, if preferred.
My personal view would be to transfer the aforementioned mugshot into the lead (replacing the one with the puppies), and to find an image, or images, more related to the Terra Nova Expedition, to put in that section. I'm on the lookout. Also, there may be a problem in keeping the statue image at the end. Apparently there are separate copyright questions arising from photographs of "recent" works of art (where the sculptor may be still alive, or only have died recently). I've had this problem on FACs before. I will at some stage do a careful check on every image within the article - on my own FACs I've had more problems with images than I have with prose. Brianboulton ( talk) 16:08, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
It was from my Michael Smith book. The book credits SPRI and I just located it on their web site at http://www.spri.cam.ac.uk/library/pictures/expeditions/terranova/9.html. I was assuming since it was taken sometime in 1910-13, surely it would have been published before 1923, but I don't have that documented anywhere. Let me know if you have further ideas, otherwise I suppose I'll remove it. Zatoichi26 ( talk) 00:54, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Lead photo:
Lead section:
Early life sections:
Subsequent sections:
Tone:
Photos:
Citations:
I'll address some of these when I get more time. Zatoichi26 ( talk) 02:26, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
The lead looks excellent now, after your redrafts. I've added a couple of tweaks myself.
In the Early life and career section I see that all the information in the first paragraph is cited to p. 19 of Smith's book. I don't have the book beside me for the moment, but is all of this really on the one page? Even so, given the variety of the information provided, I think there should be separate citations at the end of second and third sentences.
Also, in the British Navy, Ordinary Seaman is the lowest rating - you can't be "promoted" to it. It would have been automatic, once Crean ceased to be a boy seaman. I suggest something like: "On his 18th birthday Crean was ranked Ordinary Seaman..." And I would delete altogether the final sentence of the section, which doesn't really tell us anything significant. Brianboulton ( talk) 21:03, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Does lead section unambiguously define topic?
Article begins with a straightforward, declarative sentence and article title is subject of first sentence?
First instance of title is in boldface?
Relative emphasis: Is information in the lead reflected in the rest of the text?
Accessible overview: Does lead briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article?
Accessible overview: Is specialized terminology avoided?
Lead properly cited?
Proper length?
I've been reading other accounts of the Last Supporting Party's return journey in Jan-Feb 1912. I don't think Evans's own account is reliable. There was a lot of trouble descending the Beardmore, due to Evans's poor navigation (he was suffering from snow-blindness), and the later efforts of Lashly and Crean to save his life deserve better than Evans's somewhat sentimental account, with Crean weeping etc. David Crane's recent Scott biog is an excellent summary. I realise that this doesn't help you if you don't have a copy; would you object if I prepared a short paraphrase for insertion in the article? You would be welcome to amend it for consistency of style, or chuck it altogether if you don't like it. Incidentally, I got rid of the redlink on Mount Crean by writing a brief article. Brianboulton ( talk) 23:18, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I see you've been busy. The article is looking in increasingly good shape. I have done a bit more work on the Tera Nove section:-
On a separate issue, I think there are too many external links. Up to you, but I would choose the two or three best. The ones that you keep should probably be put into cite web format.
It is fast approaching the time when the article should go to peer review. Do you have any thoughts about when that might be? Brianboulton ( talk) 21:25, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
*I will do a run-through in search of the alleged "passive voices". Sometimes they are there, but elusive.
*A new reviewer is querying the statement that Crean probably lied about his age to get in the Navy. Can you deal with this point?
*Another has suggested we reintroduce the information about the Guinness advert and the play. I'm against this, what do you say?
Brianboulton (
talk)
00:56, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
A one-man play about Crean's life, devised by Adrian Dooley, has been widely performed since 2001, including a special showing at the South Pole Inn, Annascaul, in October 2001. Present were Crean's daughters, Eileen and Kate, both in their 80s. Apparently he never told them his stories; according to Eileen: "He put his medals and his sword in a box [...] and that was that. He was a very humble man". [1]
References
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I think the article could take that without accusation of trivialisation.
Brianboulton (
talk)
17:28, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
(Later): As a reviewer is supporting on the condition that the play gets a mention, I have added the above to the text. I maintain my aversion to the ad, though.
Brianboulton (
talk)
00:01, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
I've made a few slight tweaks, as I understand it, in the Royal Navy, junior personnel are said to ahve a rate, not a rank. I've also found the official notification of the Polar Medal for the Terra Nova expedition, and his Albert Medal in the London Gazette and added these as references, also in the footnote, I've tried to explain a bit more of the significance of the Albert Medal, since it's not that well known. Apparently, from 1918, hodlers of the Albert Medal were allowed to use the postnominals AM, so this could be incldued after his name in the lede, though given the sensitivities of later Anglo-Irish relations, it may be that he didn't use them, sot hat might be considered anachronous. The notification relating to the Polar Medal also states taht he was awarded only the Silver Clasp on this occasion, as he had already received the Silver Polar Medal, perhaps we need to reconsider how we word this? The other awards of the Polar Medal should also be in the Gazette, but are proving slightly harder to track down, the indexing of the scans can sometimes be a bit hit and miss. David Underdown ( talk) 18:44, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
The article states that Kate died in childhood, but Kate is later mentioned in her eighties! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.131.45 ( talk) 13:59, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
While this article was the main page featured article on 17 March 2010, a number of editors removed the mention of [[United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland|United Kingdom]] (notice piping) from the birthplace field of the article infobox. Crean was undeniably Irish) but at the time of his birth Ireland was part of the UK. The entry for his place of death correctly reflects the fact that by the time of his death) there was an independent Ireland. At the start of the day this was expressed as [[Republic of Ireland|Ireland]]) by the end of the day I had removed the piping in an attempt to make the linking clearer (and on the understanding that this was a permitted exception under WP:IMOS) since in the birthplace we link to Ireland as the article on the island as a whole). Prominent among those removing mention of the UK was User:130.83.46.39. I created User talk:130.83.46.39#Tom Crean) and it is as a result of our discussion there that I am raising this RFC. This anonymous user feels that mentioning the UK gives the unwarranted impression that the place is still under British rule. My understanding is that in general we list people under the relevant country at the time they were born) and in this particular case) teh link to Republic of Ireland for his deathplace makes the changed circumstances during his lifetime pretty clear.
I cannot find anything in the Manual of Style that directly touches on this) the closest I can find is WP:MOSICON#Biographical usage which contains: "If someone's citizenship has legally changed because of shifting political borders, use the historically correct country designation, not a later one, and perhaps mention in the article prose the new country name, e.g. 'Belgrade, Yugoslavia (today in Serbia)'" and similar strctures in the "Historical considerations" section of that part of the manual of Style. WP:MILMOS#Flag icons also mentions avoiding anachronistic usage. David Underdown ( talk) 17:04, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
The article uses statute and nautical 'miles'. Based on the text, I've tried to resolve the ambiguity by specifying which one in each case. Please feel free to check each one and see if it's correct. Lightmouse ( talk) 13:37, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
I am working these days on the translation of this article to Hebrew, and I was quite surprised to see there this strange name for the Terra Nova Expedition. Where has it come from? שלומית קדם ( talk) 17:06, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Many web sources - incl Irish Wikipedia - say "Tom Crean was born in Gortacurraun, Annascaul Co. Kerry on the 20 July 1877", not in February. Why the difference ? TGcoa ( talk) 23:14, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
I've restored the situation where Crean is in both "British explorers" and "Irish explorers". This seems best to me, but I invite discussion.
"Irish explorers" is sensible because Crean was an explorer from Ireland (and as discussed above appears to have identified as Irish). "British explorers" is also sensible because Crean was a British subject and the voyages of exploration he went on were organised by the UK.
There's no rule against having both categories provided they appear to be accurate, and no reason why someone looking in either category would not be helped by finding Crean. Pinkbeast ( talk) 16:17, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
The Irish Manual of Style is clear and unambiguous on places of birth and death: "For people anywhere else in Ireland at any time, "Ireland" should be used." (By "anywhere else", they mean "outside Northern Ireland"). Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 16:25, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
I've recently written a book about Tom Crean and have come across a number of mistakes, missing information and dead or irrelevant links on this page but I have a dilemma - as the writer of the book any alterations I could make, which I can verify by my source references, could also be viewed as a conflict of interests given that I'd be listing my own book as the source. I would really like to hear the advice of editors who understand the dilemma with a means of implementing changes to this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Timfoley50 ( talk • contribs) 15:58, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
Guliolopez, I'm happy to provide source references I've used and listed in my book, to provide evidence that Crean, albeit under a different first name, was baptised on 16th February 1877 and that he had 10 siblings and was not one of 10. Boys in the period could enter the Navy from 15 years old and they had to have parental consent - source:( http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/NL_1885/Entry.html#Boys) The article makes reference to Crean's service on HMS Royal Arthur in 1895 but no reference to the Corinto incident ( /info/en/?search=Nicaragua_Crisis_of_1895) of which HMS Royal Arthur was the flagship that headed up two other ships, HMS Satellite and HMS Wild Swan in a blockade of the port before collecting an indemnity - Crean wsa serving aboard at this time and was very likely to have been one of the force of 400 men who occupied the port. Note reference 34 refers to Crean's letter to 'unknown person' This letter was written to Lieutenant J P Kennedy, also born in Annascaul and who was a close friend and mentor of Tom Crean. Before joining Shackleton's expedition in 1914, there is no mention of Foster Stackhouse's British Antarctic Expedition proposed for the same year and one in which there is evidence that he was seeking the services of Tom Crean.
Crean's Naval records state that he was promoted to an Acting Boatswain on 27th December 1916 and that he was confirmed in the role of Boatswain (Warrant Officer) on 2nd January 1918 which conflicts with the information given in the Wiki page. The note section reference attached to this info does provide a link to the correct date. Crean was granted a licence to sell beer. wines and spirits at his dwelling house in April 1917 after making an application in March 1917 before his marriage on 5th September 1917. It was named the South Pole Inn after being refurbished to a two storey building in 1929.
From November 1918 to March 1919 Crean's naval appointments saw him serve on HMS Inflexible which was present at the surrender of the German High Seas fleet at Scapa Flow in November 1918. Crean joined the ship on November 14th, three days after the end of the war. From March 1919 to October 1919, Crean served on HMS Fox as part of the North Russian Expeditionary force sent to halt the advance of the Bolshevik forces. It's possible Shackleton recommended his services but there is no evidence of this although he had recommended other former Polar colleagues for service to the expedition. Crean was retired due to 'Retinitis'(stated on his naval record) on March 24th 1920 after being admitted to Chatham on 24th February with defective vision.
I also don't happen to believe that Crean kept a low profile after his retirement because of his association with the British Royal Navy and matters of opinion and speculation aren't evidence of this. He was a man who guarded his privacy yet he was an active and popular member of his community as can be confirmed by the many accounts of those who knew him.
The legacy section overlooks a campaign for Ireland to honour Tom Crean that I've operated since 2010 and which has generated almost 27,000 supporters and a petition signed by 10,000 people to have a ship named in Crean's honour. I believe that it warrants mention as will my book which is only recently published but contains all identifiable sources in the reference section. The legacy section could have additions such as Crean Deep, an underwater deep sea trench off the coast of New Zealand source: https://schmidtocean.org/discovering-and-naming-crean-deep/ named by Leighton Crolley. The naming of Tom Crean as a tail-fin hero of Norwegian Airlines - source: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/tom-crean-explores-new-heights-on-norwegian-air-tailfin-1.3156966.
There are dead links also in the notes section - numbers 5, 72 and 74.
I accept this is all recently sourced information I discovered when in the process of writing and researching my own book but it does render a look at alterations here where sources can provide evidence. I am also happy to provide my own research material as the qualified sources for all the changes I am proposing here in order to improve the page - perhaps a shareable link? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Timfoley50 ( talk • contribs) 16:36, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
Hi Guliolopez, thanks for coming back on the points I raised. To answer your points in order:
My source for the number of siblings can be found in the official Irish Birth and Baptism records as can Crean's birth date of 16th February and I'm happy to provide my own copies of these in a shareable link as mentioned in my previous sign off comment.
The consent question - my point is that Crean was 16 years old when he joined the Navy. If one were to calculate that from the birthdate given on the Wikipedia page (25th February 1877) which I can confirm as being incorrect, then him joining the Navy on 10th July 1893, confirms he was 16 not 15, so making any reference to him being 15 in the article is a contradiction of this. I do also happen to have evidenceof Crean being 16 years old and again I'm happy to share this with you.
Corinto - My statement is based on the fact that he was an 18-year-old ordinary seaman serving aboard Royal Arthur at the time of the blockade and 'very likely' given that we know 80% of the marines aboard occupied the port. (400 out of a ship's complement of 450) I accept this isn't definitive hence my 'very likely' comment. There is no way of determining his presence among the landing force but despite this, I believe the incident deserves mention given its importance in Crean's early career. I do happen to believe that Crean was present but that's immaterial unless proven and that would take further investigation at the Naval archives. I may come back on that point sometime in the future should I unearth evidence of this.
Letter recipient - Yes I have evidence and can share this with you.
Additional dates/service - yes and can provide this.
Promotion - You appear to have misunderstood my recommendation and I wasn't in any way wishing to appear pedantic by suggesting the day of the month be altered. Crean was indeed promoted to Acting Boatswain in December 1916 but he wasn't confirmed as a Boatswain (Warrant Officer) until January 1918. Again, I have evidence and can provide this
Low profile - I made no reference to anyone's assertions when making this point but I happen to believe different to what is stated in the article and my findings are such that Crean didn't keep a low profile because of anything other than it being an intrinsic part of his character. He was an unassuming man who preferred to remain in the background. The area Crean was born and returned to was a hotbed of Irish Nationalism and later Irish republicanism as the article states but there's no evidence that Crean keeping a low profile had any connection to the political leanings of the time. If he was intent on keeping a low profile because of his former career in the Navy, why would he make an open statement of his former life when building the public house and naming it the South Pole Inn? It's just a matter of different opinions and each has validity. I believe this section can be written in a better and more balanced way to reflect that.
Legacy - Thank you Guliolopez
Please let me know how best to provide the evidence - can this be achieved by a shareable link? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Timfoley50 ( talk • contribs) 23:52, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
Arch dude, thanks and I'm happy to put the changes into the hands of an editor.
![]() | This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered. |
Below are my suggestions and are based on my research for the book.
Section: Early Life and Career
Registered as Joanna Crean born to parents Pat and Catherine Crean at Gortacurraun on February 16th 1877 - This baptism with a name error points to that of Tom Crean whose birth certificate was registered 9 days later on 25th February 1877. The reason for the name error could possibly be to the Parish priest writing up the register later and although not conclusive, the fact remains that this child was born to the parents of Tom Crean at the family’s townland of Gortacurraun. Other potential explanations such as the possibility of Tom Crean being a twin, can be discounted as his name would have also appeared on the baptism and the return of the census would have registered 12 children, not 11 as appeared in the 1911 census - see notes below. Source to baptism https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634231#page/169/mode/1up Source to Crean's birth certificate https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1877/03016/2105300.pdf
Creans service record details his birthdate as being 20th July 1877, it’s an anomaly that exists in a number of Naval records yet the reasons aren’t clear. What is certain, given the above details on his true birthdate, is that Crean was 16 years and almost 5 months old when he joined. He confirms this himself when speaking in a court case in 1930. Source: The Kerry Champion 1st November 1930 here is the snippet from that publication - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HWGBdYzLaGzPuDF4wbPI83wPl0xP2Xgs/view?usp=sharing
Tom Crean was one of 11 children and evidence of this appears in the 1911 census in which the return confirms that Catherine Crean, Tom’s mother, gave birth to 11 children, 8 of which were still alive Source: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003928489/
Evidence of Crean’s presence at Corinto (Wiki article /info/en/?search=Nicaragua_Crisis_of_1895 under heading British Occupation at Corinto) is to be found in his Admiralty service record ADM 188/287 stored at the National Archives. Crean served on the flagship of the Pacific Station HMS Royal Arthur ( /info/en/?search=HMS_Royal_Arthur_(1891)) which he was assigned to on 14th March 1895. Crean served on Royal Arthur until 30th September 1895. This places him present at the occupation of Corinto in April 1895 and it is 'likely’ though not conclusive, that he was among the 400 men who occupied the town prior to the indemnity being paid and the ships leaving the port.Regardless of whether he was among the force of men who occupied the town it happens to be a significant event in the life of Tom Crean to warrant inclusion in the article. During his service aboard Royal Arthur and on what was then assumed to be his 18th birthday (20th July 1877), he was rated an Ordinary Seaman, an automatic rise given to navy personnel reaching the age in which the Navy considered them to be a man.
Section: Terra Nova Expedition
To reference Crean’s resolve and the gratitude of Evans to Crean for saving his life, might I suggest the inclusion of a quote from a speech Evan’s made in New York to a crowded Carnegie Hall on March 17th 1914 in which he said: When I begged them to leave me, it was Crean, who, speaking for himself and Lashly said: 'If you are to go out sir then we’ll all go out together” Source: New York Times 18th March 1914, page 11
Section: Imperial Trans-Antarctic Expedition (Endurance Expedition) 1914-17
A rival expedition leader, Joseph Foster Stackhouse, who was to lead the British Antarctic Expedition of 1914 to Antarctica, had earmarked Crean for inclusion having earlier singled him out for praise Source: (ATTRACTIONS OF THE ARCTIC. (1914, January 3). The Register (Adelaide, SA : 1901 - 1929), p. 11. Retrieved September 19, 2018, from
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article57177649)As late as May 1914 Stackhouse announced Crean as his probable boatswain Source: (THE ICY SOUTH (1914, May 4). Warwick Examiner and Times (Qld. : 1867 - 1919), p. 3. Retrieved September 19, 2018, from
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article82174128), for the expedition that was to commence in August 1914 yet the expedition postponed until a later date. Shackleton secured Crean’s services for Endurance on 22nd June 1914 Source: (Irish Examiner 23rd June 1914 Page 7)
The proposed delay of Stackhouse's expedition was a date he could not keep because whilst returning from a fundraising trip to the USA for the proposed expedition, he perished under heroic circumstances when RMS Lusitania was struck by a torpedo off the coast of Ireland in May 1915. Sources: ( /info/en/?search=RMS_Lusitania) and http://www.rmslusitania.info/people/saloon/joseph-foster-stackhouse/
A notable assignment and his last before serving under Shackleton on the Imperial Transantarctic expedition aboard Endurance was between 23rd January and the 24th May when he served aboard HMS Enchantress, the Admiralty yacht used regularly by Winston Churchill prior to the outbreak of war.
Crean was promoted to Acting Boatswain on 27th December 1916 and was confirmed in the role ‘Boatswain’ as a Warrant Officer on 2nd January 1918. On 14th November 1918, three days after the end of WorldWar One, Crean was assigned as Boatswain to HMS Inflexible, one of the battleships present at Scapa Flow for the surrender of the German High Seas Fleet. Source for this information is again taken from his service record at National Archives (Catalogue Reference ADM 196/157) and confirmation of HMS Inflexible being present at Scapa Flow on 21st November 1918, for the surrender can be sourced via /info/en/?search=HMS_Inflexible_(1907) He left HMS Inflexible to be assigned to HMS Fox on 14th March 1919. HMS Fox was part of the North Russian Expeditionary force whose remit was to halt the advance of the Bolsheviks. Crean is twice referenced in the ship’s log which can be sourced at https://www.naval-history.net/OWShips-WW1-05-HMS_Fox.htm and his role appears to have been in the supply of provisions to the main body of armed forces serving on the Dvina river. His last assignment was aboard HMS Hecla and he was admitted to Chatham Naal Hospital with Retinitis on the 24th February 1920. He was retired medically unfit on 24th March 1920. Source: ADM 196/157.
Section: Later Life
Crean had applied for a licence to sell alcohol in his dwelling house in March 1917 ( https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QZDQ04CUZcYlizmCBz_T1BExA60uBEyY/view?usp=sharing) and was granted the licence in April 1917 ( https://drive.google.com/file/d/1m8gFYQ-CvvaPVjXekXlS2-ndVjDCfjrW/view?usp=sharing) Because of flooding issues from the nearby river Crean rebuilt the premises to a two storey dwelling in 1929 and it was hence known as The South Pole Inn.
I happen to believe that Crean didn't keep a low profile because of anything other than it being an intrinsic part of his character - anything else is merely a matter of and a difference of opinion. He was a man who never wished to be in the spotlight and to correlate that with the political situation is just conjecture that doesn’t belong in a factual summary of his life. It’s true to state that the area Crean was born and returned to was a hotbed of Irish Nationalism and later Irish republicanism as the article states but there's no evidence that Crean keeping a low profile had any connection to the divisions of the time. It's just a matter of different opinions and each has validity from those who hold them. I believe this section can be written in a better and more balanced way to reflect that.
Section: Legacy
My suggestions would be to add the following to this section:
Since 2010, a campaign to secure official state honour for Tom Crean has been operating via the Facebook Page Ireland Should Honour Tom Crean www.facebook.com/honourtomcrean In late 2017 the page created a petition handed over to the Irish Government which had generated over 10,200 signatures to have a planned Irish Navy Flagship named in his honour. The decision will be made at a keel laying ceremony when the construction of the ship gets underway.
Norwegian Airlines made the decision to make Tom Crean their first Irish Tail Fin Hero in 2017 Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/tom-crean-explores-new-heights-on-norwegian-air-tailfin-1.3156966
An underwater feature off the coast of New Zealand was, in 2015, named Crean Deep by Leighton Crolley of the Schmidt Ocean Institute. Source: https://schmidtocean.org/discovering-and-naming-crean-deep/
Section Notes:
Note 5 and 74 are dead links. Note 72 links to references instead of the relevant webpage. Note 34 - Letters to unknown person - The letters were written to Lietenant James P Kennedy, Crean’s commanding officer at Chatham and a family friend who appeared to be Crean’s mentor and guardian - Kennedy was born in an adjacent townland to Crean and their relationship was such that Crean was chosen as Godfather to Kennedy’s daughter. Source: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uWFpGmIwOfM5klzQd62c6sEVWePdI3_A/view?usp=sharing
Section: External Links
Tom Crean Appreciation Society Facebook Group www.facebook.com/groups/TomCreanAppreciationSociety Tom Crean Discovery platform created in 2014 which continues to highlight Crean’s story www.facebook.com/tomcreandiscovery
Section: References:
The addition of the book: Foley, Tim, Crean - The Extraordinary Life of an Irish Hero, 2018, Keel Foley Publishing, Manchester - (ISBN10) 1999918916 (ISBN13) 978-1-9999189-1-0 For the changes being suggested I will provide Notes to the relevant page numbers of the book so these can be added to the Notes section when the article has been adapted by an editor
I’m happy to provide further sources and references should the need arise and given my own COI as stated before requesting the changes, the task of implementing changes has to fall to an experienced Wiki editor. I’m happy to collaborate if required. Timfoley50 ( talk) 19:58, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
Hi @ Timfoley50: Since the information you are seeking to add comes from a self-published source, I've passed on your request to the reliable sources noticeboard to acquire their assistance here in order to see if the source is acceptable. We should hear something shortly. Thank you! Spintendo 20:53, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
Hi @
Spintendo: and thank you for coming back to me on this. The article opens with Crean's birthdate and if editors reach a similar conclusion as I did then it would not require an explanation as we can't determine why he was baptised under the name Joanna.
Any reference to Crean being 15 and lying about his age need not appear given that we know he was 16 and we have evidence of Crean confirming this. If the editors agree then both these points can be referenced to my book and the relevant pages. The request therefore, is for these two changes to the paragraphs that open the article.
1. Three changes to Early life and career. 1.One of '11' siblings. 2. Reference in existing section to him being 15 when he joined is just a duplication of the opening paragraphs and would I advise just the single accurate reference in this section or the opening section to his being 16 years old when he joined the Navy. 3. The Corinto incident should be incorporated into this section after reference to Crean joining HMS Arthur. Again if editors agree after determining the reliability of the sources these can be referenced to the relevant pages of my book.
2 One change to Terra Nova expedition section Yes, I agree and the reference Evans made in his address to the audience at Carnegie Hall signifies the type of character Crean was.
3 Four changes to Imperial Trans-Antarctic Expedition section.
1. His last assignment before joining the expedition on HMS Enchantress (sources also prove that Churchill had written a letter from the Admiralty yacht while Crean was serving on board). His service aboard the yacht is significant but maybe not necessary to reference Churchill's presence unless editors see otherwise.
2. Reference to Foster Stackhouse wishing to recruit Crean should, I believe, be included. It reflects how sought after and how effective Crean's skills were to his expedition leaders.
3. Foster Stackhouse drowning while travelling back from USA aboard Lusitania, may be considered peripheral to Crean's story but I believe it would enhance this section.
4. Reference to Crean being promoted to Acting Boatswain on 27th December 1916 would fit well in this section
4. Five changes to Later life section 1.Reference of Crean securing a license to sell alcohol 2. Confirmed in the role ‘Boatswain’ as a Warrant Officer on 2nd January 1918. 3. Service aboard HMS Inflexible. 4. Serving on HMS Fox in Russia. 4, Reaching consensus on Crean 'keeping a low proflie' 5. 5.Rebuilding house to a two storey dweling and naming it South Pole Inn in 1929.
5. Three changes to Legacy section - agree
6. Three changes to Notes section - agree
7. Two changes to External links section - agree
As stated I can supply page and source references for my book in relation to the changes being requested. I am happy to liaise with editors chosen to adapt the article Timfoley50 ( talk) 16:41, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
The writer of the above self-published book (editor Timfoley50) has asked to incorporate changes from their book into the article. These changes include:
I've already taken the request to the reliable sources noticeboard, where the response was that the request was too lengthy and/or too technical. However, nothing was stated at that time about the reliability of the source. Editors here are asked to comment on the suitability and feasibility of incorporating these edits into the article. Below in the collapsible section are his requested changes. Please note that in instances where the text refers to "I" or "My" or "Me", this is referring to the COI editor Timfoley50 and not myself, Spintendo. I have copied the text in the collapsible section from an earlier post made by the COI editor on this talk page in their initial COI edit request which I answered. Based on the COI editor's feedback, additional alterations to that quoted text were made, including the addition of a numbering system to the individual requests which was not present in the original COI edit request. The COI editor is monitoring this page and will answer any questions/concerns that other editors have. Spintendo 06:48, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
Requested edits
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I've changed the DOB back to the Smith-sourced date used when the article achieved FA status, and have removed the tomcreandiscovery.com reference. Factotem you mentioned the possibility of adding Mr. Foley's publication to the further reading section. Did you still feel that would be ok? If I'm reading this correctly I think that was the extent of what was felt that could be added at this time, if that still happens to be the case. Spintendo 01:55, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
What is the source of the assertion that Scott said he could only trust Evans, Lashly, and Crean? The original account of Crean's solo trip in this article was factually garbled so I am kind of distrustful of this other statement as well. Dr.frog 12:53, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
I have now passed the article GA, so congratulations after all your hard work. I am writing a formal report for the archive, and will let you know where this is when I've done it.
The only late changes I've made are in the lead, where I've extended or combined sentences, adopted British spellings and styles, re-routed the open boat journey (you had it going through Drake's Passage) and other bits of tweaking. I think it's OK now.
You probably need a break, but when you feel ready for a new challenge, if you want another Antarctic project and haven't one in mind, take a look at the list on my userpage This is a summary of projects that I may, or may not, get round to. You are very welcome to pick one of these, and I'd be willing to assist. Don't pick Ernest Joyce, though, as I'm doing some work on that at present.
Also, for your interest, the two big projects, Captain Scott and Imperial Trans-Antarctic Expedition, will be at FAC and peer review respectively, in the next day or two. Brianboulton ( talk) 12:55, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
The review discussion and report is on Talk:Tom Crean/GA1 if you want to read it Brianboulton ( talk) 13:19, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
As part of the freshening-up process in readiness for an eventual run at FAC, I've played around with the images a bit. I've added a pic of the training ship HMS Impregnable, changed the Hut Point interior shot for an external one (I'm tired of looking at that fossilized pair of trousers), and changed the James Caird launching for a general shot of the Endurance party. I've also shifted the mugshot in the Terra Nova section over to the left, for variety's sake. These changes are by way of experiment - we can always revert to the former images, if preferred.
My personal view would be to transfer the aforementioned mugshot into the lead (replacing the one with the puppies), and to find an image, or images, more related to the Terra Nova Expedition, to put in that section. I'm on the lookout. Also, there may be a problem in keeping the statue image at the end. Apparently there are separate copyright questions arising from photographs of "recent" works of art (where the sculptor may be still alive, or only have died recently). I've had this problem on FACs before. I will at some stage do a careful check on every image within the article - on my own FACs I've had more problems with images than I have with prose. Brianboulton ( talk) 16:08, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
It was from my Michael Smith book. The book credits SPRI and I just located it on their web site at http://www.spri.cam.ac.uk/library/pictures/expeditions/terranova/9.html. I was assuming since it was taken sometime in 1910-13, surely it would have been published before 1923, but I don't have that documented anywhere. Let me know if you have further ideas, otherwise I suppose I'll remove it. Zatoichi26 ( talk) 00:54, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Lead photo:
Lead section:
Early life sections:
Subsequent sections:
Tone:
Photos:
Citations:
I'll address some of these when I get more time. Zatoichi26 ( talk) 02:26, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
The lead looks excellent now, after your redrafts. I've added a couple of tweaks myself.
In the Early life and career section I see that all the information in the first paragraph is cited to p. 19 of Smith's book. I don't have the book beside me for the moment, but is all of this really on the one page? Even so, given the variety of the information provided, I think there should be separate citations at the end of second and third sentences.
Also, in the British Navy, Ordinary Seaman is the lowest rating - you can't be "promoted" to it. It would have been automatic, once Crean ceased to be a boy seaman. I suggest something like: "On his 18th birthday Crean was ranked Ordinary Seaman..." And I would delete altogether the final sentence of the section, which doesn't really tell us anything significant. Brianboulton ( talk) 21:03, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Does lead section unambiguously define topic?
Article begins with a straightforward, declarative sentence and article title is subject of first sentence?
First instance of title is in boldface?
Relative emphasis: Is information in the lead reflected in the rest of the text?
Accessible overview: Does lead briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article?
Accessible overview: Is specialized terminology avoided?
Lead properly cited?
Proper length?
I've been reading other accounts of the Last Supporting Party's return journey in Jan-Feb 1912. I don't think Evans's own account is reliable. There was a lot of trouble descending the Beardmore, due to Evans's poor navigation (he was suffering from snow-blindness), and the later efforts of Lashly and Crean to save his life deserve better than Evans's somewhat sentimental account, with Crean weeping etc. David Crane's recent Scott biog is an excellent summary. I realise that this doesn't help you if you don't have a copy; would you object if I prepared a short paraphrase for insertion in the article? You would be welcome to amend it for consistency of style, or chuck it altogether if you don't like it. Incidentally, I got rid of the redlink on Mount Crean by writing a brief article. Brianboulton ( talk) 23:18, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I see you've been busy. The article is looking in increasingly good shape. I have done a bit more work on the Tera Nove section:-
On a separate issue, I think there are too many external links. Up to you, but I would choose the two or three best. The ones that you keep should probably be put into cite web format.
It is fast approaching the time when the article should go to peer review. Do you have any thoughts about when that might be? Brianboulton ( talk) 21:25, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
*I will do a run-through in search of the alleged "passive voices". Sometimes they are there, but elusive.
*A new reviewer is querying the statement that Crean probably lied about his age to get in the Navy. Can you deal with this point?
*Another has suggested we reintroduce the information about the Guinness advert and the play. I'm against this, what do you say?
Brianboulton (
talk)
00:56, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
A one-man play about Crean's life, devised by Adrian Dooley, has been widely performed since 2001, including a special showing at the South Pole Inn, Annascaul, in October 2001. Present were Crean's daughters, Eileen and Kate, both in their 80s. Apparently he never told them his stories; according to Eileen: "He put his medals and his sword in a box [...] and that was that. He was a very humble man". [1]
References
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I think the article could take that without accusation of trivialisation.
Brianboulton (
talk)
17:28, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
(Later): As a reviewer is supporting on the condition that the play gets a mention, I have added the above to the text. I maintain my aversion to the ad, though.
Brianboulton (
talk)
00:01, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
I've made a few slight tweaks, as I understand it, in the Royal Navy, junior personnel are said to ahve a rate, not a rank. I've also found the official notification of the Polar Medal for the Terra Nova expedition, and his Albert Medal in the London Gazette and added these as references, also in the footnote, I've tried to explain a bit more of the significance of the Albert Medal, since it's not that well known. Apparently, from 1918, hodlers of the Albert Medal were allowed to use the postnominals AM, so this could be incldued after his name in the lede, though given the sensitivities of later Anglo-Irish relations, it may be that he didn't use them, sot hat might be considered anachronous. The notification relating to the Polar Medal also states taht he was awarded only the Silver Clasp on this occasion, as he had already received the Silver Polar Medal, perhaps we need to reconsider how we word this? The other awards of the Polar Medal should also be in the Gazette, but are proving slightly harder to track down, the indexing of the scans can sometimes be a bit hit and miss. David Underdown ( talk) 18:44, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
The article states that Kate died in childhood, but Kate is later mentioned in her eighties! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.131.45 ( talk) 13:59, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
While this article was the main page featured article on 17 March 2010, a number of editors removed the mention of [[United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland|United Kingdom]] (notice piping) from the birthplace field of the article infobox. Crean was undeniably Irish) but at the time of his birth Ireland was part of the UK. The entry for his place of death correctly reflects the fact that by the time of his death) there was an independent Ireland. At the start of the day this was expressed as [[Republic of Ireland|Ireland]]) by the end of the day I had removed the piping in an attempt to make the linking clearer (and on the understanding that this was a permitted exception under WP:IMOS) since in the birthplace we link to Ireland as the article on the island as a whole). Prominent among those removing mention of the UK was User:130.83.46.39. I created User talk:130.83.46.39#Tom Crean) and it is as a result of our discussion there that I am raising this RFC. This anonymous user feels that mentioning the UK gives the unwarranted impression that the place is still under British rule. My understanding is that in general we list people under the relevant country at the time they were born) and in this particular case) teh link to Republic of Ireland for his deathplace makes the changed circumstances during his lifetime pretty clear.
I cannot find anything in the Manual of Style that directly touches on this) the closest I can find is WP:MOSICON#Biographical usage which contains: "If someone's citizenship has legally changed because of shifting political borders, use the historically correct country designation, not a later one, and perhaps mention in the article prose the new country name, e.g. 'Belgrade, Yugoslavia (today in Serbia)'" and similar strctures in the "Historical considerations" section of that part of the manual of Style. WP:MILMOS#Flag icons also mentions avoiding anachronistic usage. David Underdown ( talk) 17:04, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
The article uses statute and nautical 'miles'. Based on the text, I've tried to resolve the ambiguity by specifying which one in each case. Please feel free to check each one and see if it's correct. Lightmouse ( talk) 13:37, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
I am working these days on the translation of this article to Hebrew, and I was quite surprised to see there this strange name for the Terra Nova Expedition. Where has it come from? שלומית קדם ( talk) 17:06, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Many web sources - incl Irish Wikipedia - say "Tom Crean was born in Gortacurraun, Annascaul Co. Kerry on the 20 July 1877", not in February. Why the difference ? TGcoa ( talk) 23:14, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
I've restored the situation where Crean is in both "British explorers" and "Irish explorers". This seems best to me, but I invite discussion.
"Irish explorers" is sensible because Crean was an explorer from Ireland (and as discussed above appears to have identified as Irish). "British explorers" is also sensible because Crean was a British subject and the voyages of exploration he went on were organised by the UK.
There's no rule against having both categories provided they appear to be accurate, and no reason why someone looking in either category would not be helped by finding Crean. Pinkbeast ( talk) 16:17, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
The Irish Manual of Style is clear and unambiguous on places of birth and death: "For people anywhere else in Ireland at any time, "Ireland" should be used." (By "anywhere else", they mean "outside Northern Ireland"). Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 16:25, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
I've recently written a book about Tom Crean and have come across a number of mistakes, missing information and dead or irrelevant links on this page but I have a dilemma - as the writer of the book any alterations I could make, which I can verify by my source references, could also be viewed as a conflict of interests given that I'd be listing my own book as the source. I would really like to hear the advice of editors who understand the dilemma with a means of implementing changes to this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Timfoley50 ( talk • contribs) 15:58, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
Guliolopez, I'm happy to provide source references I've used and listed in my book, to provide evidence that Crean, albeit under a different first name, was baptised on 16th February 1877 and that he had 10 siblings and was not one of 10. Boys in the period could enter the Navy from 15 years old and they had to have parental consent - source:( http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/NL_1885/Entry.html#Boys) The article makes reference to Crean's service on HMS Royal Arthur in 1895 but no reference to the Corinto incident ( /info/en/?search=Nicaragua_Crisis_of_1895) of which HMS Royal Arthur was the flagship that headed up two other ships, HMS Satellite and HMS Wild Swan in a blockade of the port before collecting an indemnity - Crean wsa serving aboard at this time and was very likely to have been one of the force of 400 men who occupied the port. Note reference 34 refers to Crean's letter to 'unknown person' This letter was written to Lieutenant J P Kennedy, also born in Annascaul and who was a close friend and mentor of Tom Crean. Before joining Shackleton's expedition in 1914, there is no mention of Foster Stackhouse's British Antarctic Expedition proposed for the same year and one in which there is evidence that he was seeking the services of Tom Crean.
Crean's Naval records state that he was promoted to an Acting Boatswain on 27th December 1916 and that he was confirmed in the role of Boatswain (Warrant Officer) on 2nd January 1918 which conflicts with the information given in the Wiki page. The note section reference attached to this info does provide a link to the correct date. Crean was granted a licence to sell beer. wines and spirits at his dwelling house in April 1917 after making an application in March 1917 before his marriage on 5th September 1917. It was named the South Pole Inn after being refurbished to a two storey building in 1929.
From November 1918 to March 1919 Crean's naval appointments saw him serve on HMS Inflexible which was present at the surrender of the German High Seas fleet at Scapa Flow in November 1918. Crean joined the ship on November 14th, three days after the end of the war. From March 1919 to October 1919, Crean served on HMS Fox as part of the North Russian Expeditionary force sent to halt the advance of the Bolshevik forces. It's possible Shackleton recommended his services but there is no evidence of this although he had recommended other former Polar colleagues for service to the expedition. Crean was retired due to 'Retinitis'(stated on his naval record) on March 24th 1920 after being admitted to Chatham on 24th February with defective vision.
I also don't happen to believe that Crean kept a low profile after his retirement because of his association with the British Royal Navy and matters of opinion and speculation aren't evidence of this. He was a man who guarded his privacy yet he was an active and popular member of his community as can be confirmed by the many accounts of those who knew him.
The legacy section overlooks a campaign for Ireland to honour Tom Crean that I've operated since 2010 and which has generated almost 27,000 supporters and a petition signed by 10,000 people to have a ship named in Crean's honour. I believe that it warrants mention as will my book which is only recently published but contains all identifiable sources in the reference section. The legacy section could have additions such as Crean Deep, an underwater deep sea trench off the coast of New Zealand source: https://schmidtocean.org/discovering-and-naming-crean-deep/ named by Leighton Crolley. The naming of Tom Crean as a tail-fin hero of Norwegian Airlines - source: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/tom-crean-explores-new-heights-on-norwegian-air-tailfin-1.3156966.
There are dead links also in the notes section - numbers 5, 72 and 74.
I accept this is all recently sourced information I discovered when in the process of writing and researching my own book but it does render a look at alterations here where sources can provide evidence. I am also happy to provide my own research material as the qualified sources for all the changes I am proposing here in order to improve the page - perhaps a shareable link? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Timfoley50 ( talk • contribs) 16:36, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
Hi Guliolopez, thanks for coming back on the points I raised. To answer your points in order:
My source for the number of siblings can be found in the official Irish Birth and Baptism records as can Crean's birth date of 16th February and I'm happy to provide my own copies of these in a shareable link as mentioned in my previous sign off comment.
The consent question - my point is that Crean was 16 years old when he joined the Navy. If one were to calculate that from the birthdate given on the Wikipedia page (25th February 1877) which I can confirm as being incorrect, then him joining the Navy on 10th July 1893, confirms he was 16 not 15, so making any reference to him being 15 in the article is a contradiction of this. I do also happen to have evidenceof Crean being 16 years old and again I'm happy to share this with you.
Corinto - My statement is based on the fact that he was an 18-year-old ordinary seaman serving aboard Royal Arthur at the time of the blockade and 'very likely' given that we know 80% of the marines aboard occupied the port. (400 out of a ship's complement of 450) I accept this isn't definitive hence my 'very likely' comment. There is no way of determining his presence among the landing force but despite this, I believe the incident deserves mention given its importance in Crean's early career. I do happen to believe that Crean was present but that's immaterial unless proven and that would take further investigation at the Naval archives. I may come back on that point sometime in the future should I unearth evidence of this.
Letter recipient - Yes I have evidence and can share this with you.
Additional dates/service - yes and can provide this.
Promotion - You appear to have misunderstood my recommendation and I wasn't in any way wishing to appear pedantic by suggesting the day of the month be altered. Crean was indeed promoted to Acting Boatswain in December 1916 but he wasn't confirmed as a Boatswain (Warrant Officer) until January 1918. Again, I have evidence and can provide this
Low profile - I made no reference to anyone's assertions when making this point but I happen to believe different to what is stated in the article and my findings are such that Crean didn't keep a low profile because of anything other than it being an intrinsic part of his character. He was an unassuming man who preferred to remain in the background. The area Crean was born and returned to was a hotbed of Irish Nationalism and later Irish republicanism as the article states but there's no evidence that Crean keeping a low profile had any connection to the political leanings of the time. If he was intent on keeping a low profile because of his former career in the Navy, why would he make an open statement of his former life when building the public house and naming it the South Pole Inn? It's just a matter of different opinions and each has validity. I believe this section can be written in a better and more balanced way to reflect that.
Legacy - Thank you Guliolopez
Please let me know how best to provide the evidence - can this be achieved by a shareable link? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Timfoley50 ( talk • contribs) 23:52, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
Arch dude, thanks and I'm happy to put the changes into the hands of an editor.
![]() | This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered. |
Below are my suggestions and are based on my research for the book.
Section: Early Life and Career
Registered as Joanna Crean born to parents Pat and Catherine Crean at Gortacurraun on February 16th 1877 - This baptism with a name error points to that of Tom Crean whose birth certificate was registered 9 days later on 25th February 1877. The reason for the name error could possibly be to the Parish priest writing up the register later and although not conclusive, the fact remains that this child was born to the parents of Tom Crean at the family’s townland of Gortacurraun. Other potential explanations such as the possibility of Tom Crean being a twin, can be discounted as his name would have also appeared on the baptism and the return of the census would have registered 12 children, not 11 as appeared in the 1911 census - see notes below. Source to baptism https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634231#page/169/mode/1up Source to Crean's birth certificate https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1877/03016/2105300.pdf
Creans service record details his birthdate as being 20th July 1877, it’s an anomaly that exists in a number of Naval records yet the reasons aren’t clear. What is certain, given the above details on his true birthdate, is that Crean was 16 years and almost 5 months old when he joined. He confirms this himself when speaking in a court case in 1930. Source: The Kerry Champion 1st November 1930 here is the snippet from that publication - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HWGBdYzLaGzPuDF4wbPI83wPl0xP2Xgs/view?usp=sharing
Tom Crean was one of 11 children and evidence of this appears in the 1911 census in which the return confirms that Catherine Crean, Tom’s mother, gave birth to 11 children, 8 of which were still alive Source: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003928489/
Evidence of Crean’s presence at Corinto (Wiki article /info/en/?search=Nicaragua_Crisis_of_1895 under heading British Occupation at Corinto) is to be found in his Admiralty service record ADM 188/287 stored at the National Archives. Crean served on the flagship of the Pacific Station HMS Royal Arthur ( /info/en/?search=HMS_Royal_Arthur_(1891)) which he was assigned to on 14th March 1895. Crean served on Royal Arthur until 30th September 1895. This places him present at the occupation of Corinto in April 1895 and it is 'likely’ though not conclusive, that he was among the 400 men who occupied the town prior to the indemnity being paid and the ships leaving the port.Regardless of whether he was among the force of men who occupied the town it happens to be a significant event in the life of Tom Crean to warrant inclusion in the article. During his service aboard Royal Arthur and on what was then assumed to be his 18th birthday (20th July 1877), he was rated an Ordinary Seaman, an automatic rise given to navy personnel reaching the age in which the Navy considered them to be a man.
Section: Terra Nova Expedition
To reference Crean’s resolve and the gratitude of Evans to Crean for saving his life, might I suggest the inclusion of a quote from a speech Evan’s made in New York to a crowded Carnegie Hall on March 17th 1914 in which he said: When I begged them to leave me, it was Crean, who, speaking for himself and Lashly said: 'If you are to go out sir then we’ll all go out together” Source: New York Times 18th March 1914, page 11
Section: Imperial Trans-Antarctic Expedition (Endurance Expedition) 1914-17
A rival expedition leader, Joseph Foster Stackhouse, who was to lead the British Antarctic Expedition of 1914 to Antarctica, had earmarked Crean for inclusion having earlier singled him out for praise Source: (ATTRACTIONS OF THE ARCTIC. (1914, January 3). The Register (Adelaide, SA : 1901 - 1929), p. 11. Retrieved September 19, 2018, from
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article57177649)As late as May 1914 Stackhouse announced Crean as his probable boatswain Source: (THE ICY SOUTH (1914, May 4). Warwick Examiner and Times (Qld. : 1867 - 1919), p. 3. Retrieved September 19, 2018, from
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article82174128), for the expedition that was to commence in August 1914 yet the expedition postponed until a later date. Shackleton secured Crean’s services for Endurance on 22nd June 1914 Source: (Irish Examiner 23rd June 1914 Page 7)
The proposed delay of Stackhouse's expedition was a date he could not keep because whilst returning from a fundraising trip to the USA for the proposed expedition, he perished under heroic circumstances when RMS Lusitania was struck by a torpedo off the coast of Ireland in May 1915. Sources: ( /info/en/?search=RMS_Lusitania) and http://www.rmslusitania.info/people/saloon/joseph-foster-stackhouse/
A notable assignment and his last before serving under Shackleton on the Imperial Transantarctic expedition aboard Endurance was between 23rd January and the 24th May when he served aboard HMS Enchantress, the Admiralty yacht used regularly by Winston Churchill prior to the outbreak of war.
Crean was promoted to Acting Boatswain on 27th December 1916 and was confirmed in the role ‘Boatswain’ as a Warrant Officer on 2nd January 1918. On 14th November 1918, three days after the end of WorldWar One, Crean was assigned as Boatswain to HMS Inflexible, one of the battleships present at Scapa Flow for the surrender of the German High Seas Fleet. Source for this information is again taken from his service record at National Archives (Catalogue Reference ADM 196/157) and confirmation of HMS Inflexible being present at Scapa Flow on 21st November 1918, for the surrender can be sourced via /info/en/?search=HMS_Inflexible_(1907) He left HMS Inflexible to be assigned to HMS Fox on 14th March 1919. HMS Fox was part of the North Russian Expeditionary force whose remit was to halt the advance of the Bolsheviks. Crean is twice referenced in the ship’s log which can be sourced at https://www.naval-history.net/OWShips-WW1-05-HMS_Fox.htm and his role appears to have been in the supply of provisions to the main body of armed forces serving on the Dvina river. His last assignment was aboard HMS Hecla and he was admitted to Chatham Naal Hospital with Retinitis on the 24th February 1920. He was retired medically unfit on 24th March 1920. Source: ADM 196/157.
Section: Later Life
Crean had applied for a licence to sell alcohol in his dwelling house in March 1917 ( https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QZDQ04CUZcYlizmCBz_T1BExA60uBEyY/view?usp=sharing) and was granted the licence in April 1917 ( https://drive.google.com/file/d/1m8gFYQ-CvvaPVjXekXlS2-ndVjDCfjrW/view?usp=sharing) Because of flooding issues from the nearby river Crean rebuilt the premises to a two storey dwelling in 1929 and it was hence known as The South Pole Inn.
I happen to believe that Crean didn't keep a low profile because of anything other than it being an intrinsic part of his character - anything else is merely a matter of and a difference of opinion. He was a man who never wished to be in the spotlight and to correlate that with the political situation is just conjecture that doesn’t belong in a factual summary of his life. It’s true to state that the area Crean was born and returned to was a hotbed of Irish Nationalism and later Irish republicanism as the article states but there's no evidence that Crean keeping a low profile had any connection to the divisions of the time. It's just a matter of different opinions and each has validity from those who hold them. I believe this section can be written in a better and more balanced way to reflect that.
Section: Legacy
My suggestions would be to add the following to this section:
Since 2010, a campaign to secure official state honour for Tom Crean has been operating via the Facebook Page Ireland Should Honour Tom Crean www.facebook.com/honourtomcrean In late 2017 the page created a petition handed over to the Irish Government which had generated over 10,200 signatures to have a planned Irish Navy Flagship named in his honour. The decision will be made at a keel laying ceremony when the construction of the ship gets underway.
Norwegian Airlines made the decision to make Tom Crean their first Irish Tail Fin Hero in 2017 Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/tom-crean-explores-new-heights-on-norwegian-air-tailfin-1.3156966
An underwater feature off the coast of New Zealand was, in 2015, named Crean Deep by Leighton Crolley of the Schmidt Ocean Institute. Source: https://schmidtocean.org/discovering-and-naming-crean-deep/
Section Notes:
Note 5 and 74 are dead links. Note 72 links to references instead of the relevant webpage. Note 34 - Letters to unknown person - The letters were written to Lietenant James P Kennedy, Crean’s commanding officer at Chatham and a family friend who appeared to be Crean’s mentor and guardian - Kennedy was born in an adjacent townland to Crean and their relationship was such that Crean was chosen as Godfather to Kennedy’s daughter. Source: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uWFpGmIwOfM5klzQd62c6sEVWePdI3_A/view?usp=sharing
Section: External Links
Tom Crean Appreciation Society Facebook Group www.facebook.com/groups/TomCreanAppreciationSociety Tom Crean Discovery platform created in 2014 which continues to highlight Crean’s story www.facebook.com/tomcreandiscovery
Section: References:
The addition of the book: Foley, Tim, Crean - The Extraordinary Life of an Irish Hero, 2018, Keel Foley Publishing, Manchester - (ISBN10) 1999918916 (ISBN13) 978-1-9999189-1-0 For the changes being suggested I will provide Notes to the relevant page numbers of the book so these can be added to the Notes section when the article has been adapted by an editor
I’m happy to provide further sources and references should the need arise and given my own COI as stated before requesting the changes, the task of implementing changes has to fall to an experienced Wiki editor. I’m happy to collaborate if required. Timfoley50 ( talk) 19:58, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
Hi @ Timfoley50: Since the information you are seeking to add comes from a self-published source, I've passed on your request to the reliable sources noticeboard to acquire their assistance here in order to see if the source is acceptable. We should hear something shortly. Thank you! Spintendo 20:53, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
Hi @
Spintendo: and thank you for coming back to me on this. The article opens with Crean's birthdate and if editors reach a similar conclusion as I did then it would not require an explanation as we can't determine why he was baptised under the name Joanna.
Any reference to Crean being 15 and lying about his age need not appear given that we know he was 16 and we have evidence of Crean confirming this. If the editors agree then both these points can be referenced to my book and the relevant pages. The request therefore, is for these two changes to the paragraphs that open the article.
1. Three changes to Early life and career. 1.One of '11' siblings. 2. Reference in existing section to him being 15 when he joined is just a duplication of the opening paragraphs and would I advise just the single accurate reference in this section or the opening section to his being 16 years old when he joined the Navy. 3. The Corinto incident should be incorporated into this section after reference to Crean joining HMS Arthur. Again if editors agree after determining the reliability of the sources these can be referenced to the relevant pages of my book.
2 One change to Terra Nova expedition section Yes, I agree and the reference Evans made in his address to the audience at Carnegie Hall signifies the type of character Crean was.
3 Four changes to Imperial Trans-Antarctic Expedition section.
1. His last assignment before joining the expedition on HMS Enchantress (sources also prove that Churchill had written a letter from the Admiralty yacht while Crean was serving on board). His service aboard the yacht is significant but maybe not necessary to reference Churchill's presence unless editors see otherwise.
2. Reference to Foster Stackhouse wishing to recruit Crean should, I believe, be included. It reflects how sought after and how effective Crean's skills were to his expedition leaders.
3. Foster Stackhouse drowning while travelling back from USA aboard Lusitania, may be considered peripheral to Crean's story but I believe it would enhance this section.
4. Reference to Crean being promoted to Acting Boatswain on 27th December 1916 would fit well in this section
4. Five changes to Later life section 1.Reference of Crean securing a license to sell alcohol 2. Confirmed in the role ‘Boatswain’ as a Warrant Officer on 2nd January 1918. 3. Service aboard HMS Inflexible. 4. Serving on HMS Fox in Russia. 4, Reaching consensus on Crean 'keeping a low proflie' 5. 5.Rebuilding house to a two storey dweling and naming it South Pole Inn in 1929.
5. Three changes to Legacy section - agree
6. Three changes to Notes section - agree
7. Two changes to External links section - agree
As stated I can supply page and source references for my book in relation to the changes being requested. I am happy to liaise with editors chosen to adapt the article Timfoley50 ( talk) 16:41, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
The writer of the above self-published book (editor Timfoley50) has asked to incorporate changes from their book into the article. These changes include:
I've already taken the request to the reliable sources noticeboard, where the response was that the request was too lengthy and/or too technical. However, nothing was stated at that time about the reliability of the source. Editors here are asked to comment on the suitability and feasibility of incorporating these edits into the article. Below in the collapsible section are his requested changes. Please note that in instances where the text refers to "I" or "My" or "Me", this is referring to the COI editor Timfoley50 and not myself, Spintendo. I have copied the text in the collapsible section from an earlier post made by the COI editor on this talk page in their initial COI edit request which I answered. Based on the COI editor's feedback, additional alterations to that quoted text were made, including the addition of a numbering system to the individual requests which was not present in the original COI edit request. The COI editor is monitoring this page and will answer any questions/concerns that other editors have. Spintendo 06:48, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
Requested edits
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I've changed the DOB back to the Smith-sourced date used when the article achieved FA status, and have removed the tomcreandiscovery.com reference. Factotem you mentioned the possibility of adding Mr. Foley's publication to the further reading section. Did you still feel that would be ok? If I'm reading this correctly I think that was the extent of what was felt that could be added at this time, if that still happens to be the case. Spintendo 01:55, 3 October 2018 (UTC)