This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Tokata Iron Eyes article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
https://movieweb.com/daughter-of-parents-who-filed-restraining-order-against-ezra-miller-speaks-out/ https://meaww.com/ezra-miller-flees-tokata-iron-eyes-non-binary-sexuality-debate-court-cant-serve-protective-order https://www.yourtango.com/news/who-tokata-iron-eyes-ezra-miller-alleged-victim
Might want to consider fixing the article to reflect their pronouns?-- KimYunmi ( talk) 17:28, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
I'm not personally attached either way, but... given the controversy around consent and coercion right now, I think I would personally hold off on a wholesale change of pronouns and name (like doing a page move, for instance) until there's more than one source. I won't revert if someone goes ahead and does it, but I'm still a bit cautious. I can do some... well, OR, but I'm not going to do the changes myself at this juncture. YMMV. However, the article can certainly be added, along with some material from it. I'd just like to see additional sourcing for any major changes. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 23:40, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
In an email to Rolling Stone Wednesday night, Gibson denied allegations that they were being controlled by the Flash actor. ... Gibson continued by calling their parents’ concern “blatantly insulting” and shared that “Ezra and our crew” will speak about their story “when we see fit.” [1]
I think this is pretty solid advice for this situation. "Gibson" should also be mentioned. Schierbecker ( talk) 00:46, 18 June 2022 (UTC)Gender-neutral pronouns should be used (or pronouns avoided) where gendered language is not necessary, and especially when gender is not specific or unknown.
. Schierbecker ( talk) 01:08, 18 June 2022 (UTC)"Tokata is not the only nonbinary child in our family," Iron Eyes said. "Tokata would know we’ve been nothing but open and empowering."
Just checked the Instagram, and fixed an inaccurate bit in the article. Both names are now on the account, plus the pronoun "she". Tokatawin / Gibson. But, again, we don't know who changed the account. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 19:26, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
As I noted above, I did some OR: Not citeable in article space, but take is as you will. [Disclosure: I do not know the BLP subject personally, but we have mutual IRL friends and know a number of people in common on social media. I am familiar with their social media presence and have been since they started doing public activism.] On social media, personal friends of the BLP subject are generally using they/them for Tokata. In careful public statements about their friend, some are referring to their friend in ways like, "Tokata Iron Eyes aka Gibson", but when addressing Tokatawin directly, or in private posts, they are still calling their friend "Tokata" or by the nickname "Tok". This includes other Native youth and those in the Indigiqueer/LGBTQ2S communities. So... while it's clear Tokata's been using they/them for awhile, either it's not that firm a conviction, or the recent change to "she" on Insta is trolling (or Ezra's doing/trolling). Also, as the same close friends addressing their friend as "Tok" are saying they're in regular/recent contact with their friend, I'm not convinced "Gibson" is a name Tokatawin is personally using. Again, this is OR and YMMMV. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 19:58, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
@ Schierbecker: per all of the above, and your recent edits, where is the declaration, from the BLP subject, clearly in their voice without any control or coercion, that they are nonbinary, choose a new name, and have declared their pronouns? We are dealing with a difficult situation here, and all sources need to be read carefully. NBC said that Tokata did not reply to their email, so once again, we have a bunch of other people speaking for them. We don't even know who is controlling the ever-changing instagram page. Please stay up to date with the discussions on talk and seek consensus. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 20:13, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
We're starting to get some disruptive editing, both outright vandalism as well as well-intentioned but inadequately-sourced changes from new accounts who either haven't checked the talk page, or don't know how to, or don't care to. Right now it's just a trickle, but if it increases and we need the page protected, folks can either ping me or, if I'm not around, go to WP:RFPP. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 23:01, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not Moved for now ( non-admin closure) >>> Extorc. talk 04:30, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
Tokata Iron Eyes → Gibson Iron Eyes – As of Wednesday, Iron Eyes has stated that they go by Gibson. Media usage since then has been mixed. Tokata/feminine pronouns, Yahoo News WGHP via Nexstar Media Wire; Tokata/gender neutral pronouns, The Daily Beast, NBC; Gibson/gender neutral pronouns CNBC, The Cut; Pink News, Rolling Stone, Insider; Gibson/feminine pronouns, Newsweek. On Instagram they have pronouns listed as "she". Schierbecker ( talk) 04:53, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
Asking for suggestions here. Since the article was changed from she/her pronounces to they/them, the "Personal Life" section is proving quite challenging to turn into something clear and intelligible, because (i) the surname "Iron Eyes" can refer to Tokata or Tokata's father, and (ii) "they"/"them" can refer to Tokata, or Tokata's parents, or indeed the three of them together.
The best idea I can come up with is (in the "Personal Life" section alone) to refer to Tokata as "Tokata Iron Eyes" the first time they're referenced in each paragraph, and then "Tokata" for the rest of the paragraph. But is that clunky, or is referring to the subject by first-name alone a bit overfamiliar? Would appreciate people's thoughts, and if anyone's aware of any guidelines or policies on the subject then that would obviously be useful to share.
Incidentally, I appreciate that the problem might go away if Tokata's pronouns are clarified as she/they or something else (in which case I'd suggest using "she" pronouns in the article if only for clarity), but presumably we still want it to be as readable as possible in the meantime. Clicriffhard ( talk) 15:46, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
I've read the See also section and categories for this article and I'm confused by the (supposed) lack of present information that confirms Iron Eyes was in a missing persons case within the past few years. I've been thinking about removing them under the assumption that this is unfounded or even vandalism. Is there anything that would suggest otherwise? Carlinal ( talk) 11:24, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Tokata Iron Eyes article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
https://movieweb.com/daughter-of-parents-who-filed-restraining-order-against-ezra-miller-speaks-out/ https://meaww.com/ezra-miller-flees-tokata-iron-eyes-non-binary-sexuality-debate-court-cant-serve-protective-order https://www.yourtango.com/news/who-tokata-iron-eyes-ezra-miller-alleged-victim
Might want to consider fixing the article to reflect their pronouns?-- KimYunmi ( talk) 17:28, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
I'm not personally attached either way, but... given the controversy around consent and coercion right now, I think I would personally hold off on a wholesale change of pronouns and name (like doing a page move, for instance) until there's more than one source. I won't revert if someone goes ahead and does it, but I'm still a bit cautious. I can do some... well, OR, but I'm not going to do the changes myself at this juncture. YMMV. However, the article can certainly be added, along with some material from it. I'd just like to see additional sourcing for any major changes. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 23:40, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
In an email to Rolling Stone Wednesday night, Gibson denied allegations that they were being controlled by the Flash actor. ... Gibson continued by calling their parents’ concern “blatantly insulting” and shared that “Ezra and our crew” will speak about their story “when we see fit.” [1]
I think this is pretty solid advice for this situation. "Gibson" should also be mentioned. Schierbecker ( talk) 00:46, 18 June 2022 (UTC)Gender-neutral pronouns should be used (or pronouns avoided) where gendered language is not necessary, and especially when gender is not specific or unknown.
. Schierbecker ( talk) 01:08, 18 June 2022 (UTC)"Tokata is not the only nonbinary child in our family," Iron Eyes said. "Tokata would know we’ve been nothing but open and empowering."
Just checked the Instagram, and fixed an inaccurate bit in the article. Both names are now on the account, plus the pronoun "she". Tokatawin / Gibson. But, again, we don't know who changed the account. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 19:26, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
As I noted above, I did some OR: Not citeable in article space, but take is as you will. [Disclosure: I do not know the BLP subject personally, but we have mutual IRL friends and know a number of people in common on social media. I am familiar with their social media presence and have been since they started doing public activism.] On social media, personal friends of the BLP subject are generally using they/them for Tokata. In careful public statements about their friend, some are referring to their friend in ways like, "Tokata Iron Eyes aka Gibson", but when addressing Tokatawin directly, or in private posts, they are still calling their friend "Tokata" or by the nickname "Tok". This includes other Native youth and those in the Indigiqueer/LGBTQ2S communities. So... while it's clear Tokata's been using they/them for awhile, either it's not that firm a conviction, or the recent change to "she" on Insta is trolling (or Ezra's doing/trolling). Also, as the same close friends addressing their friend as "Tok" are saying they're in regular/recent contact with their friend, I'm not convinced "Gibson" is a name Tokatawin is personally using. Again, this is OR and YMMMV. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 19:58, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
@ Schierbecker: per all of the above, and your recent edits, where is the declaration, from the BLP subject, clearly in their voice without any control or coercion, that they are nonbinary, choose a new name, and have declared their pronouns? We are dealing with a difficult situation here, and all sources need to be read carefully. NBC said that Tokata did not reply to their email, so once again, we have a bunch of other people speaking for them. We don't even know who is controlling the ever-changing instagram page. Please stay up to date with the discussions on talk and seek consensus. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 20:13, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
We're starting to get some disruptive editing, both outright vandalism as well as well-intentioned but inadequately-sourced changes from new accounts who either haven't checked the talk page, or don't know how to, or don't care to. Right now it's just a trickle, but if it increases and we need the page protected, folks can either ping me or, if I'm not around, go to WP:RFPP. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 23:01, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not Moved for now ( non-admin closure) >>> Extorc. talk 04:30, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
Tokata Iron Eyes → Gibson Iron Eyes – As of Wednesday, Iron Eyes has stated that they go by Gibson. Media usage since then has been mixed. Tokata/feminine pronouns, Yahoo News WGHP via Nexstar Media Wire; Tokata/gender neutral pronouns, The Daily Beast, NBC; Gibson/gender neutral pronouns CNBC, The Cut; Pink News, Rolling Stone, Insider; Gibson/feminine pronouns, Newsweek. On Instagram they have pronouns listed as "she". Schierbecker ( talk) 04:53, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
Asking for suggestions here. Since the article was changed from she/her pronounces to they/them, the "Personal Life" section is proving quite challenging to turn into something clear and intelligible, because (i) the surname "Iron Eyes" can refer to Tokata or Tokata's father, and (ii) "they"/"them" can refer to Tokata, or Tokata's parents, or indeed the three of them together.
The best idea I can come up with is (in the "Personal Life" section alone) to refer to Tokata as "Tokata Iron Eyes" the first time they're referenced in each paragraph, and then "Tokata" for the rest of the paragraph. But is that clunky, or is referring to the subject by first-name alone a bit overfamiliar? Would appreciate people's thoughts, and if anyone's aware of any guidelines or policies on the subject then that would obviously be useful to share.
Incidentally, I appreciate that the problem might go away if Tokata's pronouns are clarified as she/they or something else (in which case I'd suggest using "she" pronouns in the article if only for clarity), but presumably we still want it to be as readable as possible in the meantime. Clicriffhard ( talk) 15:46, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
I've read the See also section and categories for this article and I'm confused by the (supposed) lack of present information that confirms Iron Eyes was in a missing persons case within the past few years. I've been thinking about removing them under the assumption that this is unfounded or even vandalism. Is there anything that would suggest otherwise? Carlinal ( talk) 11:24, 18 July 2023 (UTC)