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When somebody clearly self-identified his ethnicity during his life, the post-mortem bargaining and “consensuses” about that are a charlatan exercise! -- 37.157.176.194 ( talk) 04:50, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
I hope nobody objects to my remake of this article. Todor Aleksandrov's ethnicity is disputed ... and therefore it is unfair to confidently define his ethnicity. I have removed words such as Bulgarian and Macedonian and instead have made a section explaining the current political situation regarding ethnicity ... stolen from the Goce Delchev article. Visually, compare the old article with my newer version. I have also renamed the article to a better spelling of Aleksandrov as well as renaming all links as such. -- Daniel Tanevski talk 13:41, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Please compare FunkyFly's edits with mine. I think that this could be a compromise between Macedonians and Bulgarians. Please comment. Is there something which the Bulgarian users object to? -- Daniel Tanevski talk 03:07, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I've added lots of pictures from commons, hope you arrange them in a well manner -- Andersmusician $ 03:29, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to know why the Macedonians insist on the presence of the paragraph about the presumable controversial ethnicity.Everyone, who is at least a little bit aware of the activity of Todor Alexandrov knows that he was one of the most fanatical supporters for annexation of Macedonia by Bulgaria.This is a well-known fact and therefore when Bulgarian political activists built a monument of Aleksandrov in Veles, the local authorities opposed and made everything possible to remove it. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
BG89 (
talk •
contribs) 13:33, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Strich3d, the name of the organization which Todor Alexandrov joined is BMARC, also it is wholly unsourced he declared as "ethnic Macedonian", also your edits are not in line with sources provided. Mr. Neutron 20:58, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
p.s. why ForeignerFromEast is saying different things than Neutron when it is the same person? or you are ill? -- strich3D 18:06, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I have a link from the interview of Aleksandrov for the english newspapper "The Times". There Alexandrov reffer to the goals of his battle for "Macedonia to the Macedonians". This is an authentic document, so I propose to include something about this interview into main article. I will no change the article now, please consider my suggestion. Links: http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/5910/19240104p11ej9.png - for the first part of the interview http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/2896/19240104p12qo2.png - for the second part of the intereview The link of the web page: http://vmro-istorija.blog.com.mk/node/93623 Best regards!
ako nekoj kaze ne sme makedonci mu rezem ezika, ako nekoj kaze ne sme blgari mu rezem glavata. citation needed
Todor Aleksandrov
If someone said we are not Macedonian, I'll cut his tongue off. If someone said we are not Bulgarian, I'll cut his head off. citation needed
that section is ridiculous and brings local squabbles into an encyclopedia..
As per sources such incident occurred. Please, revert your edis, they resemble vandalism or provide your sources. Jingby ( talk) 12:55, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Anti-Bulgarian hysteria in Macedonia
2 March 2008 | 13:47 |
Again a monument of eminent Bulgarian connected with VMRO and Macedonian liberation movement was destroyed. The monument of Todor Alexandrov is put up in the yard of the house of Dragi Kargov in Veles by the demand of the Initiative Committee for commemoration of Todor Alexandrov’s deed. Last night at about 4am the monument was destroyed and splashed with black paint. Regardless of that the monument was partly restored and will be unveiled again on Sunday.
Security measures at inauguration of Todor Alexandrov monument
2 March 2008 | 13:32 | FOCUS News Agency
Veles. The initiative committee for commemoration of Todor Alexandrov’s deeds called upon Macedonian Ministry of Interior to undertake extra security measures at the time of the unveiling of the monument of Todor Alexandrov in the town of Veles, the committee told FOCUS News Agency. The monument will be dedicated to an anniversary of Todor Alexandriov on March 4.
Mayor of Veles threatens to destroy again the monument
2 March 2008 | 14:18 | FOCUS News Agency
Veles. Mayor of Veles threatened that tomorrow the whole monument of Todor Alexandrov will be destroyed, journalist and member of the initiative committee of commemoration of Todor Alexandrov’s deed Viktor Kanzurov told FOCUS News Agency. The reason for Mayor’s threat is that the monument has been illegally put up, non the less that it was situated in the yard of private property.
There were previous violations of monument of Todor Alexandrov
2 March 2008 | 15:28 | FOCUS News Agency
Veles. There was another violation of the monument of Todor Alexandrov in Veles on Thursday, February 28, Dragi Karo,v who put up the monument in the yard of his own house, said for FOCUS News Agency. He restored the monument on the next day, Friday. “For 15 days I’ve been fighting against the Serbian communist bandits, against the Serbian janissary state security. They’ve been sending me orders to take the monument away. They put it off I put it back up. That’s been going for several days. I’ve been guarding it all night but in the moment I fell asleep state security sent people who splashed the monument with black paint and took it down. I put it back up, painted it and it is like brand new now,’ Dragi Karov said. He declared that he had been told that the Mayor of Vesel and state security tomorrow, Monday, with a police cordon from Skopje would take the monument down by force. He pointed out that this was against the law since private property was untouchable. He added that Todor Alexandrov and Vanche Mihailov were the most prominent heroes of the independence of Macedonia. He announced that for 17 years the Bulgarians had been put under constant terror in Macedonia and that’s why people feared to come at the official unveiling of the monument. No one would dare admitting that he was a Bulgarian according to him.
Things will come to court if the monument is taken down again: IMRO leader
2 March 2008 | 15:44 | FOCUS News Agency
Veles. If the monument of Todor Alexandrov in Veles, that was unveiled today, was taken down again things would come to court, Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization leader Krasimir Karakachanov who is presently in Veles said for FOCUS News Agency. The Mayor of Veles had declared that the monument had to be taken down. Spokesperson of Social Democratic Union of Macedonia had made an appeal that no such acts of Bulgarians should be allowed. All Macedonian media had been talking about that, and it had also been mentioned that there were some Macedonian citizens kidnapped and robbed in Bulgaria. According to Mr Karakachanov this was classical pattern for creation of negative attitudes.
Sources in English about the incident were added. Jingby ( talk) 13:30, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
No discussion is held nor sources are provided from User:46.217.20.224. Jingby ( talk) 14:52, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Throughout the Middle Ages and until the early 20th century, there was no clear formulation or expression of a distinct Macedonian ethnicity. The Slavic speaking majority in the Region of Macedonia had been referred to (both, by themselves and outsiders) as Bulgarians, and that is how they were predominantly seen since 10th, [1] [2] [3] up until the early 20th century. [4] It is generally acknowledged that the ethnic Macedonian identity emerged in the late 19th century or even later. [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] However, the existence of a discernible Macedonian national consciousness prior to the 1940s is disputed. [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] Anti-Serban and pro-Bulgarian feelings among the local population at this period prevailed. [16] [17] According to some researchers, by the end of the war a tangible Macedonian national consciousness did not exist and bulgarophile sentiments still dominated in the area, but others consider that it hardly existed. [18] After 1944 Communist Bulgaria and Communist Yugoslavia began a policy of making Macedonia into the connecting link for the establishment of new Balkan Federative Republic and stimulating here a development of distinct Slav Macedonian consciousness. [19] With the proclamation of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia as part of the Yugoslav federation, the new authorities also started measures that would overcome the pro-Bulgarian feeling among parts of its population. [20] In 1969 also the first History of the Macedonian nation was published. The past was systematycally falsified to conceal the truth, that most of the well-known Macedonians had felt themselves to be Bulgarians and generations of students were tought the pseudo-history of the Macedonian nation. [21]
Macedonian nationalism Is a new phenomenon. In the early twentieth century, there was no separate Slavic Macedonian identity
On the other hand, the Macedonians are a newly emergent people in search of a past to help legitimize their precarious present as they attempt to establish their singular identity in a Slavic world dominated historically by Serbs and Bulgarians. ... The twentieth-century development of a Macedonian ethnicity, and its recent evolution into independent statehood following the collapse of the Yugoslav state in 1991, has followed a rocky road. In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history and politics, the Macedonians, who have had no history, need one.
The key fact about Macedonian nationalism is that it is new: in the early twentieth century, Macedonian villagers defined their identity religiously—they were either "Bulgarian," "Serbian," or "Greek" depending on the affiliation of the village priest. ... According to the new Macedonian mythology, modern Macedonians are the direct descendants of Alexander the Great's subjects. They trace their cultural identity to the ninth-century Saints Cyril and Methodius, who converted the Slavs to Christianity and invented the first Slavic alphabet, and whose disciples maintained a centre of Christian learning in western Macedonia. A more modern national hero is Gotse Delchev, leader of the turn-of-the-century Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO), which was actually a largely pro-Bulgarian organization but is claimed as the founding Macedonian national movement.
Despite the recent development of Macedonian identity, as Loring Danforth notes, it is no more or less artificial than any other identity. It merely has a more recent ethnogenesis - one that can therefore more easily be traced through the recent historical record.
Unlike the Slovene and Croatian identities, which existed independently for a long period before the emergence of SFRY Macedonian identity and language were themselves a product federal Yugoslavia, and took shape only after 1944. Again unlike Slovenia and Croatia, the very existence of a separate Macedonian identity was questioned—albeit to a different degree—by both the governments and the public of all the neighboring nations (Greece being the most intransigent)
Jingby ( talk) 14:19, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
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I cannot understand why the letter to Karamfilov should be censored down to one sentence for which no secondary source is presented, and text based on a secondary source for the same letter is arbitrarily removed. I do not agree with such practices. Jingiby ( talk) 07:05, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
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When somebody clearly self-identified his ethnicity during his life, the post-mortem bargaining and “consensuses” about that are a charlatan exercise! -- 37.157.176.194 ( talk) 04:50, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
I hope nobody objects to my remake of this article. Todor Aleksandrov's ethnicity is disputed ... and therefore it is unfair to confidently define his ethnicity. I have removed words such as Bulgarian and Macedonian and instead have made a section explaining the current political situation regarding ethnicity ... stolen from the Goce Delchev article. Visually, compare the old article with my newer version. I have also renamed the article to a better spelling of Aleksandrov as well as renaming all links as such. -- Daniel Tanevski talk 13:41, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Please compare FunkyFly's edits with mine. I think that this could be a compromise between Macedonians and Bulgarians. Please comment. Is there something which the Bulgarian users object to? -- Daniel Tanevski talk 03:07, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I've added lots of pictures from commons, hope you arrange them in a well manner -- Andersmusician $ 03:29, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to know why the Macedonians insist on the presence of the paragraph about the presumable controversial ethnicity.Everyone, who is at least a little bit aware of the activity of Todor Alexandrov knows that he was one of the most fanatical supporters for annexation of Macedonia by Bulgaria.This is a well-known fact and therefore when Bulgarian political activists built a monument of Aleksandrov in Veles, the local authorities opposed and made everything possible to remove it. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
BG89 (
talk •
contribs) 13:33, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Strich3d, the name of the organization which Todor Alexandrov joined is BMARC, also it is wholly unsourced he declared as "ethnic Macedonian", also your edits are not in line with sources provided. Mr. Neutron 20:58, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
p.s. why ForeignerFromEast is saying different things than Neutron when it is the same person? or you are ill? -- strich3D 18:06, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I have a link from the interview of Aleksandrov for the english newspapper "The Times". There Alexandrov reffer to the goals of his battle for "Macedonia to the Macedonians". This is an authentic document, so I propose to include something about this interview into main article. I will no change the article now, please consider my suggestion. Links: http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/5910/19240104p11ej9.png - for the first part of the interview http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/2896/19240104p12qo2.png - for the second part of the intereview The link of the web page: http://vmro-istorija.blog.com.mk/node/93623 Best regards!
ako nekoj kaze ne sme makedonci mu rezem ezika, ako nekoj kaze ne sme blgari mu rezem glavata. citation needed
Todor Aleksandrov
If someone said we are not Macedonian, I'll cut his tongue off. If someone said we are not Bulgarian, I'll cut his head off. citation needed
that section is ridiculous and brings local squabbles into an encyclopedia..
As per sources such incident occurred. Please, revert your edis, they resemble vandalism or provide your sources. Jingby ( talk) 12:55, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Anti-Bulgarian hysteria in Macedonia
2 March 2008 | 13:47 |
Again a monument of eminent Bulgarian connected with VMRO and Macedonian liberation movement was destroyed. The monument of Todor Alexandrov is put up in the yard of the house of Dragi Kargov in Veles by the demand of the Initiative Committee for commemoration of Todor Alexandrov’s deed. Last night at about 4am the monument was destroyed and splashed with black paint. Regardless of that the monument was partly restored and will be unveiled again on Sunday.
Security measures at inauguration of Todor Alexandrov monument
2 March 2008 | 13:32 | FOCUS News Agency
Veles. The initiative committee for commemoration of Todor Alexandrov’s deeds called upon Macedonian Ministry of Interior to undertake extra security measures at the time of the unveiling of the monument of Todor Alexandrov in the town of Veles, the committee told FOCUS News Agency. The monument will be dedicated to an anniversary of Todor Alexandriov on March 4.
Mayor of Veles threatens to destroy again the monument
2 March 2008 | 14:18 | FOCUS News Agency
Veles. Mayor of Veles threatened that tomorrow the whole monument of Todor Alexandrov will be destroyed, journalist and member of the initiative committee of commemoration of Todor Alexandrov’s deed Viktor Kanzurov told FOCUS News Agency. The reason for Mayor’s threat is that the monument has been illegally put up, non the less that it was situated in the yard of private property.
There were previous violations of monument of Todor Alexandrov
2 March 2008 | 15:28 | FOCUS News Agency
Veles. There was another violation of the monument of Todor Alexandrov in Veles on Thursday, February 28, Dragi Karo,v who put up the monument in the yard of his own house, said for FOCUS News Agency. He restored the monument on the next day, Friday. “For 15 days I’ve been fighting against the Serbian communist bandits, against the Serbian janissary state security. They’ve been sending me orders to take the monument away. They put it off I put it back up. That’s been going for several days. I’ve been guarding it all night but in the moment I fell asleep state security sent people who splashed the monument with black paint and took it down. I put it back up, painted it and it is like brand new now,’ Dragi Karov said. He declared that he had been told that the Mayor of Vesel and state security tomorrow, Monday, with a police cordon from Skopje would take the monument down by force. He pointed out that this was against the law since private property was untouchable. He added that Todor Alexandrov and Vanche Mihailov were the most prominent heroes of the independence of Macedonia. He announced that for 17 years the Bulgarians had been put under constant terror in Macedonia and that’s why people feared to come at the official unveiling of the monument. No one would dare admitting that he was a Bulgarian according to him.
Things will come to court if the monument is taken down again: IMRO leader
2 March 2008 | 15:44 | FOCUS News Agency
Veles. If the monument of Todor Alexandrov in Veles, that was unveiled today, was taken down again things would come to court, Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization leader Krasimir Karakachanov who is presently in Veles said for FOCUS News Agency. The Mayor of Veles had declared that the monument had to be taken down. Spokesperson of Social Democratic Union of Macedonia had made an appeal that no such acts of Bulgarians should be allowed. All Macedonian media had been talking about that, and it had also been mentioned that there were some Macedonian citizens kidnapped and robbed in Bulgaria. According to Mr Karakachanov this was classical pattern for creation of negative attitudes.
Sources in English about the incident were added. Jingby ( talk) 13:30, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
No discussion is held nor sources are provided from User:46.217.20.224. Jingby ( talk) 14:52, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Throughout the Middle Ages and until the early 20th century, there was no clear formulation or expression of a distinct Macedonian ethnicity. The Slavic speaking majority in the Region of Macedonia had been referred to (both, by themselves and outsiders) as Bulgarians, and that is how they were predominantly seen since 10th, [1] [2] [3] up until the early 20th century. [4] It is generally acknowledged that the ethnic Macedonian identity emerged in the late 19th century or even later. [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] However, the existence of a discernible Macedonian national consciousness prior to the 1940s is disputed. [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] Anti-Serban and pro-Bulgarian feelings among the local population at this period prevailed. [16] [17] According to some researchers, by the end of the war a tangible Macedonian national consciousness did not exist and bulgarophile sentiments still dominated in the area, but others consider that it hardly existed. [18] After 1944 Communist Bulgaria and Communist Yugoslavia began a policy of making Macedonia into the connecting link for the establishment of new Balkan Federative Republic and stimulating here a development of distinct Slav Macedonian consciousness. [19] With the proclamation of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia as part of the Yugoslav federation, the new authorities also started measures that would overcome the pro-Bulgarian feeling among parts of its population. [20] In 1969 also the first History of the Macedonian nation was published. The past was systematycally falsified to conceal the truth, that most of the well-known Macedonians had felt themselves to be Bulgarians and generations of students were tought the pseudo-history of the Macedonian nation. [21]
Macedonian nationalism Is a new phenomenon. In the early twentieth century, there was no separate Slavic Macedonian identity
On the other hand, the Macedonians are a newly emergent people in search of a past to help legitimize their precarious present as they attempt to establish their singular identity in a Slavic world dominated historically by Serbs and Bulgarians. ... The twentieth-century development of a Macedonian ethnicity, and its recent evolution into independent statehood following the collapse of the Yugoslav state in 1991, has followed a rocky road. In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history and politics, the Macedonians, who have had no history, need one.
The key fact about Macedonian nationalism is that it is new: in the early twentieth century, Macedonian villagers defined their identity religiously—they were either "Bulgarian," "Serbian," or "Greek" depending on the affiliation of the village priest. ... According to the new Macedonian mythology, modern Macedonians are the direct descendants of Alexander the Great's subjects. They trace their cultural identity to the ninth-century Saints Cyril and Methodius, who converted the Slavs to Christianity and invented the first Slavic alphabet, and whose disciples maintained a centre of Christian learning in western Macedonia. A more modern national hero is Gotse Delchev, leader of the turn-of-the-century Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO), which was actually a largely pro-Bulgarian organization but is claimed as the founding Macedonian national movement.
Despite the recent development of Macedonian identity, as Loring Danforth notes, it is no more or less artificial than any other identity. It merely has a more recent ethnogenesis - one that can therefore more easily be traced through the recent historical record.
Unlike the Slovene and Croatian identities, which existed independently for a long period before the emergence of SFRY Macedonian identity and language were themselves a product federal Yugoslavia, and took shape only after 1944. Again unlike Slovenia and Croatia, the very existence of a separate Macedonian identity was questioned—albeit to a different degree—by both the governments and the public of all the neighboring nations (Greece being the most intransigent)
Jingby ( talk) 14:19, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
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I cannot understand why the letter to Karamfilov should be censored down to one sentence for which no secondary source is presented, and text based on a secondary source for the same letter is arbitrarily removed. I do not agree with such practices. Jingiby ( talk) 07:05, 20 September 2022 (UTC)