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Due to overlappping edits, we now have multiple versions of the article which should be merged. The question arises as to the best title. The contenders include:
All of these might be referenced in the lead and I will edit here accordingly. Redirects for the alternate versions will provide for them. The only issue is what the formal main name will be. The standard advice is to use the most easily recognized name. This seems to be the latter title. Colonel Warden ( talk) 00:10, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
I can't argue with that. Agreed.-- Sabrebd ( talk) 11:05, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
[Copied from my talkpage-- SabreBD ( talk) 08:28, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
The entry states the first recorded version is "to buy a plum bun," and this statement appears to come from the Opie's entry from their Oxford anthology. Further in that same entry, the timeline makes it clear that the first recorded (written) version that appears (following the allusion in the Italian Dictionary)is in the 1805 "Songs for the Nursery" as "to buy a penny bun." There is no documentation of "plum bun" being the actual first version, according to the information in the Opies' book, even though they use the "plum bun" version as the representative version of the rhyme. As is stated in the discussion, this is a discretionary decision (using "plum bun" as the representative version, with no documentation)that has not necessarily been reinforced by acceptance of it as being authoritative. If we only use the Opies' research and documentation of the historical versions, it is clear, from their entry that "to buy a penny bun" was the first RECORDED version. The entry should state this in the introduction, rather than including it at the end of the article, in a way that is accurate but perhaps confusing or misleading. Thank you. Mrsbray ( talk) 06:50, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
I am using the source note in the "To market, to market" entry in the Opies' The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes to suggest that the introduction in the Wikipedia article that represents "to buy a plum bun" as the first recorded (written) version is unsupported, but that "to buy a penny bun" is supported as being first recorded. Given both the documentation, and the long English history of market controls on the price, quality, weight of bread (see "penny bun" entry in wikipedia, and perhaps highlight the term within this article), the use of penny bun seems more consistent in a rhyme about the iconic marketplace experience. I have a link to the printed page of "Songs for the Nursery," and it is identical to the Opies' record, and is presented without a title in a two-line couplet (not a four-line stanza). Uncertain if this is the place to provide the link, or if it is necessary since it confirms Opies' notes, but it could be additional source/documentation for presenting "to buy a penny bun" as first recorded version (with Opies' Dictionary). Hope for consensus among existing editors, and many thanks. http://www.archive.org/stream/songsfornursery00londiala#page/8/mode/2up Mrsbray ( talk) 00:10, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
NOTE: the link connects to an 1808 edition of "Songs for the Nursery;" Library of Congress confirms appearance in 1806 edition in their possession, but I cannot locate an 1805 edition for confirmation, so 1805 date relies on Opies' documentation. Mrsbray ( talk) 00:58, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
"The version first recorded makes no reference to a pig:
To market, to market to buy a penny bun
Home again, home again, market is done.[3]"
The existing footnote in current version references the Opies' Oxford Anthology, which may stand as it verifies this version as the first recorded in the 19th Century. At present, it seems to read that plum bun pre-dates the 19th century. The line "When the rhyme reappeared in the nineteenth century, it took the now common form:" might be replaced by the line from below "There have been many variations:" with subsequent variations indicated. Thank you. Mrsbray ( talk) 23:54, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
![]() | Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Due to overlappping edits, we now have multiple versions of the article which should be merged. The question arises as to the best title. The contenders include:
All of these might be referenced in the lead and I will edit here accordingly. Redirects for the alternate versions will provide for them. The only issue is what the formal main name will be. The standard advice is to use the most easily recognized name. This seems to be the latter title. Colonel Warden ( talk) 00:10, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
I can't argue with that. Agreed.-- Sabrebd ( talk) 11:05, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
[Copied from my talkpage-- SabreBD ( talk) 08:28, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
The entry states the first recorded version is "to buy a plum bun," and this statement appears to come from the Opie's entry from their Oxford anthology. Further in that same entry, the timeline makes it clear that the first recorded (written) version that appears (following the allusion in the Italian Dictionary)is in the 1805 "Songs for the Nursery" as "to buy a penny bun." There is no documentation of "plum bun" being the actual first version, according to the information in the Opies' book, even though they use the "plum bun" version as the representative version of the rhyme. As is stated in the discussion, this is a discretionary decision (using "plum bun" as the representative version, with no documentation)that has not necessarily been reinforced by acceptance of it as being authoritative. If we only use the Opies' research and documentation of the historical versions, it is clear, from their entry that "to buy a penny bun" was the first RECORDED version. The entry should state this in the introduction, rather than including it at the end of the article, in a way that is accurate but perhaps confusing or misleading. Thank you. Mrsbray ( talk) 06:50, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
I am using the source note in the "To market, to market" entry in the Opies' The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes to suggest that the introduction in the Wikipedia article that represents "to buy a plum bun" as the first recorded (written) version is unsupported, but that "to buy a penny bun" is supported as being first recorded. Given both the documentation, and the long English history of market controls on the price, quality, weight of bread (see "penny bun" entry in wikipedia, and perhaps highlight the term within this article), the use of penny bun seems more consistent in a rhyme about the iconic marketplace experience. I have a link to the printed page of "Songs for the Nursery," and it is identical to the Opies' record, and is presented without a title in a two-line couplet (not a four-line stanza). Uncertain if this is the place to provide the link, or if it is necessary since it confirms Opies' notes, but it could be additional source/documentation for presenting "to buy a penny bun" as first recorded version (with Opies' Dictionary). Hope for consensus among existing editors, and many thanks. http://www.archive.org/stream/songsfornursery00londiala#page/8/mode/2up Mrsbray ( talk) 00:10, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
NOTE: the link connects to an 1808 edition of "Songs for the Nursery;" Library of Congress confirms appearance in 1806 edition in their possession, but I cannot locate an 1805 edition for confirmation, so 1805 date relies on Opies' documentation. Mrsbray ( talk) 00:58, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
"The version first recorded makes no reference to a pig:
To market, to market to buy a penny bun
Home again, home again, market is done.[3]"
The existing footnote in current version references the Opies' Oxford Anthology, which may stand as it verifies this version as the first recorded in the 19th Century. At present, it seems to read that plum bun pre-dates the 19th century. The line "When the rhyme reappeared in the nineteenth century, it took the now common form:" might be replaced by the line from below "There have been many variations:" with subsequent variations indicated. Thank you. Mrsbray ( talk) 23:54, 8 November 2011 (UTC)