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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Moved as proposed. After much-extended time for discussion, the discussion has become rather involved, but there is a clear consensus that the disambiguation page should occupy the base page name; I have moved the other pages per the original proposal and broken out
Mount Tmolus into a separate article, as suggested herein. Any further merging or reconfiguration of the articles is a matter to be taken up with each article on an individual basis.
BD2412T05:48, 30 April 2021 (UTC)reply
– It is not clear to me that either of these figures, both called "a king of Lydia", is the
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, and both are mythological figures (though the former may have also been an historical figure?). I would welcome other suggestions for the new names. Note, too, that
Tmolus (mythology) was very recently created by
User:Markx121993, and
Tmolus (disambiguation) was even more recently created by me. Also pinging
User:Elinruby, who helped clean up Tmolus (mythology).
Cnilep (
talk)
03:06, 28 March 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Cnilep I am trying to sort out this article regarding Tmolus. In my research, I came across possible 5 different characters named Tmolus. (1) Tmolus, one of the Ourea was the one who judged the contest between Pan and Apollo, (2) Tmolus, king of Lydia and father of Tantalus, (3) Tmolus, king of Lydia and husband of Omphale, (4) Tmolus, king of Lydia and son of Ares and Theogone, and lastly (5) Tmolus, aka Polygonus, a son of Proteus and Torone.
It is possible that Tmolus 1 and 2 are the same for they belong in the period where they can freely interact with the gods. Meanwhile, the same can be drawn out with Tmolus 3 and 4 but I hesitate to connect this two for the latter has conflicting ideas for Tmolus 3 because 4 had a son Theoclymenus who name the mountain after his father and possibly became the king thereafter while Tmolus 3 had a wife Omphale who succeeded her husband and became entangled with the myth of Heracles.
"The god of Mount Tmolus in Lydia, is described as the husband of Pluto (or Omphale) and father of Tantalus, and said to have decided the musical contest between Apollo and Pan. (Apollod. 2.6.3; Schol. ad Eur. Orest. 5 ; Ov. Met. 11.157.)"
Gantz, p. 536:
Father of Tantalus by Plouto (citing the scholion to Euripides, Orestes 5)
"Gave the government to his wife [Omphale] at the death of his father, the king. He was the judge of a musical contest between Pan and Apollo" (citing Ov. Met 11.156; Apollodorus, 2.6.3)
2. Son of Ares [= Markx121993's 4 above, currently covered in our article:
Tmolus]. See:
Grimal, s.v. Tmolus 2:
"A son of Ares and Theogone, king of Lydia, who assaulted a companion of Artemis called Arripe. ..." (citing Pseudo-Plutarch, De Fluv. 7.5)
3. Son of Proteus [= Markx121993's 5 above, not currently covered in any of our articles]. See:
I also think that, based upon the above sources (I haven't check the primary sourcing yet) our current article
Tmolus probably incorrectly conflates Tmolus the father of Tantalus, with Tmolus the son of Ares (note Grimal considers them separately). So I also suggest we:
D. Create a new article
Tmolus (son of Ares) (from content removed from our current article
Tmolus, and above sources)
E. Plus other stuff like figuring where (if anywhere) Tmolus, the son of Proteus belongs, perhaps moving the stuff about the mountain to it's own article, and of course add appropriate entries to the disambiguation page.
Thank you to both Markx121993 and Paul August for their investigations. I endorse the suggestions above, that the disambiguation page move to the bare title, and that two or possibly three new pages treat the various mythological figures, though I leave it to more knowledgeable heads to figure out which content relates to which figure.
Cnilep (
talk)
23:08, 28 March 2021 (UTC)reply
I concur to your suggestion:
Make a separate page about the mountain Tmolus and named it as Tmolus (mountain) or Mt. Tmolus
Have a set index of the characters named as Tmolus with Tmolus (Greek myth) as the page name, explaining that Tmolus (son of Ares) is maybe the same with Tmolus, the husband of Omphale
We have for now, 4 separate individuals named Tmolus. (1) Tmolus, the father of Tantalus, (2) Tmolus, the son of Ares, (3) Tmolus, husband of Omphale and (4) Tmolus, son of Proteus.
I disagree with moving
Tmolus (disambiguation) - it's clearly a disambiguation page, since it deals with the butterfly, town, and mountain, as well as the mythological figures. Labelling the article
Tmolus (father of Tantalus) also seems objectionable, given that in most accounts Tantalus' father is not Tmolus at all, but Zeus.
I'd like to see
Tmolus (disambiguation) and
Tmolus (mythology) for all the mythological figures under the name - they are all associated with Lydia and the Mountain (the mountain isn't "named after" any of them, by the by) and it's not clear to me that they are distinct figures rather than different genealogies for the same figure (as is common in Greek mythology). There doesn't seem to be enough material about Tmolus (rapist of Arippe) or Tmolus (victim of Heracles) to justify separate articles.
Furius (
talk)
23:46, 29 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Sorry, missed this. If the discussion is still live, I think 'Tmolus (mythology)' is the primary topic and should have a hat note to 'Tmolus (disambiguation)' where the links to the town, butterfly, etc would live. My main concern is that we not have separate pages for the different Greek mythical figures bearing the name.
Furius (
talk)
10:12, 14 April 2021 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Greece, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Greece on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GreeceWikipedia:WikiProject GreeceTemplate:WikiProject GreeceGreek articles
This article is supported by WikiProject Mythology. This project provides a central approach to Mythology-related subjects on Wikipedia. Please participate by editing
the article, and help us
assess and improve articles to
good and
1.0 standards, or visit the
WikiProject page for more details.MythologyWikipedia:WikiProject MythologyTemplate:WikiProject MythologyMythology articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome, a group of contributors interested in Wikipedia's articles on classics. If you would like to join the WikiProject or learn how to contribute, please see our
project page. If you need assistance from a classicist, please see our
talk page.Classical Greece and RomeWikipedia:WikiProject Classical Greece and RomeTemplate:WikiProject Classical Greece and RomeClassical Greece and Rome articles
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Moved as proposed. After much-extended time for discussion, the discussion has become rather involved, but there is a clear consensus that the disambiguation page should occupy the base page name; I have moved the other pages per the original proposal and broken out
Mount Tmolus into a separate article, as suggested herein. Any further merging or reconfiguration of the articles is a matter to be taken up with each article on an individual basis.
BD2412T05:48, 30 April 2021 (UTC)reply
– It is not clear to me that either of these figures, both called "a king of Lydia", is the
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, and both are mythological figures (though the former may have also been an historical figure?). I would welcome other suggestions for the new names. Note, too, that
Tmolus (mythology) was very recently created by
User:Markx121993, and
Tmolus (disambiguation) was even more recently created by me. Also pinging
User:Elinruby, who helped clean up Tmolus (mythology).
Cnilep (
talk)
03:06, 28 March 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Cnilep I am trying to sort out this article regarding Tmolus. In my research, I came across possible 5 different characters named Tmolus. (1) Tmolus, one of the Ourea was the one who judged the contest between Pan and Apollo, (2) Tmolus, king of Lydia and father of Tantalus, (3) Tmolus, king of Lydia and husband of Omphale, (4) Tmolus, king of Lydia and son of Ares and Theogone, and lastly (5) Tmolus, aka Polygonus, a son of Proteus and Torone.
It is possible that Tmolus 1 and 2 are the same for they belong in the period where they can freely interact with the gods. Meanwhile, the same can be drawn out with Tmolus 3 and 4 but I hesitate to connect this two for the latter has conflicting ideas for Tmolus 3 because 4 had a son Theoclymenus who name the mountain after his father and possibly became the king thereafter while Tmolus 3 had a wife Omphale who succeeded her husband and became entangled with the myth of Heracles.
"The god of Mount Tmolus in Lydia, is described as the husband of Pluto (or Omphale) and father of Tantalus, and said to have decided the musical contest between Apollo and Pan. (Apollod. 2.6.3; Schol. ad Eur. Orest. 5 ; Ov. Met. 11.157.)"
Gantz, p. 536:
Father of Tantalus by Plouto (citing the scholion to Euripides, Orestes 5)
"Gave the government to his wife [Omphale] at the death of his father, the king. He was the judge of a musical contest between Pan and Apollo" (citing Ov. Met 11.156; Apollodorus, 2.6.3)
2. Son of Ares [= Markx121993's 4 above, currently covered in our article:
Tmolus]. See:
Grimal, s.v. Tmolus 2:
"A son of Ares and Theogone, king of Lydia, who assaulted a companion of Artemis called Arripe. ..." (citing Pseudo-Plutarch, De Fluv. 7.5)
3. Son of Proteus [= Markx121993's 5 above, not currently covered in any of our articles]. See:
I also think that, based upon the above sources (I haven't check the primary sourcing yet) our current article
Tmolus probably incorrectly conflates Tmolus the father of Tantalus, with Tmolus the son of Ares (note Grimal considers them separately). So I also suggest we:
D. Create a new article
Tmolus (son of Ares) (from content removed from our current article
Tmolus, and above sources)
E. Plus other stuff like figuring where (if anywhere) Tmolus, the son of Proteus belongs, perhaps moving the stuff about the mountain to it's own article, and of course add appropriate entries to the disambiguation page.
Thank you to both Markx121993 and Paul August for their investigations. I endorse the suggestions above, that the disambiguation page move to the bare title, and that two or possibly three new pages treat the various mythological figures, though I leave it to more knowledgeable heads to figure out which content relates to which figure.
Cnilep (
talk)
23:08, 28 March 2021 (UTC)reply
I concur to your suggestion:
Make a separate page about the mountain Tmolus and named it as Tmolus (mountain) or Mt. Tmolus
Have a set index of the characters named as Tmolus with Tmolus (Greek myth) as the page name, explaining that Tmolus (son of Ares) is maybe the same with Tmolus, the husband of Omphale
We have for now, 4 separate individuals named Tmolus. (1) Tmolus, the father of Tantalus, (2) Tmolus, the son of Ares, (3) Tmolus, husband of Omphale and (4) Tmolus, son of Proteus.
I disagree with moving
Tmolus (disambiguation) - it's clearly a disambiguation page, since it deals with the butterfly, town, and mountain, as well as the mythological figures. Labelling the article
Tmolus (father of Tantalus) also seems objectionable, given that in most accounts Tantalus' father is not Tmolus at all, but Zeus.
I'd like to see
Tmolus (disambiguation) and
Tmolus (mythology) for all the mythological figures under the name - they are all associated with Lydia and the Mountain (the mountain isn't "named after" any of them, by the by) and it's not clear to me that they are distinct figures rather than different genealogies for the same figure (as is common in Greek mythology). There doesn't seem to be enough material about Tmolus (rapist of Arippe) or Tmolus (victim of Heracles) to justify separate articles.
Furius (
talk)
23:46, 29 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Sorry, missed this. If the discussion is still live, I think 'Tmolus (mythology)' is the primary topic and should have a hat note to 'Tmolus (disambiguation)' where the links to the town, butterfly, etc would live. My main concern is that we not have separate pages for the different Greek mythical figures bearing the name.
Furius (
talk)
10:12, 14 April 2021 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.