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OK, JoshuaZ put a fact tag on this (good catch, btw), but I've decided to move it here for discussion:
- Later, in Children of Dune, Agamemnon is among the voices clamoring for audience in Alia Atreides' Other memory. citation needed
The passage from CoD in question is this:
- "Prescience does this to you," a voice whispered.
- She covered her ears with her hands, thinking: I'm not prescient! The trance doesn't work for me!
- But the voice persisted: "It might work, if you had help."
- "No...no," she whispered.
- Other voices wove around her mind: "I, Agamemnon, your ancestor, demand audience!"
- "No...no. "She pressed her hands against her ears until the flesh answered her with pain.
- An insane cackle within her head asked: "What has become of Ovid? Simple. He's John Bartlett's ibid!"
- The names were meaningless in her extremity. She wanted to scream against them and against all the other voices but could not find her own voice.
Since both the mythico-historical Agamemnon and the Titan Agamemnon are Atreides ancestors (according to "Expanded Canon" at least), the reference is ambiguous at best. As such, the statement above cannot be allowed into the article as is. (Who added this, anyway? I'm going to check the article history after saving.) -- SandChigger 19:55, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
- I think we can assume that Frank was talking about the mythological Agamemnon, since the Titan is a Brian/Kevin creation (and as we all know, there has been no indication from them what they specifically lifted from Frank's notes and what was their own). But of course, there is really no way of ever knowing for sure, so it can really never be reintroduced into the article unless it's worded like "Either the original or the Titan Agamemnon is among the voices clamoring ..." It's a somewhat interesting tidbit, butI don't know that it's noteworthy enough to be included at all. TAnthony 20:13, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
- LOL. And here I went to such pains to leave out my POV earlier! I agree. Anyway, I found the culprit. The line was added by User:70.137.184.250, here on July 7, 2006. Seems to have been a bit of a flash in the pan, and to have a bit of attitude, if his talk page is any indication. Mystery solved. A bit embarrassing, though, that it was let stand this long. -- SandChigger 20:21, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
how about the rest of the 12 that wasn't written? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.151.169.125 ( talk) 06:32, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- What do you mean? The article says:
- Of the remaining 12 Titans, only Alexander and Tamerlane are explicitly named.
- There's nothing else to know, other than what is written in the new "Dune" books.
- As is stated in the above comments, there is no evidence at present that these "Titan" characters were created by Frank Herbert. There is no mention of them in any of his published Dune books. It is very likely that they were dreamt up by Kevin J. Anderson, based on their and the Cogitor's similarity to the B'omarr Monks he wrote about in his book The Illustrated Star Wars Universe.
- At best these characters (Titans and Cogitors) are early era B-grade scifi movie throwbacks, brains in vats, with a modern Transformers twist. NOT IN ANY WAY WORTHY OF DUNE. Period. -- SandChigger ( talk) 09:20, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- I see the Transformers connection. I see a lot of Darth Vader in them, too. But the Dune - Star Wars symbiosis has been going on for a long time, I think. Cranston Lamont ( talk) 21:48, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
The names of the "Titans" always crack me up. Tlaloc was an Aztec rain god, Xerxes a Persian ruler, Dante an Italian poet, Barbarossa...what, a Frankish king? Pirate? Whatever. They couldn't even be bothered to carry through with the conceit and use the names of the actual Titans from Greek myth.
It's really painful how hard they still try to forge some epic link with mythology. (There's a really strained reference to Scylla and Charybdis in Paul of Dune as well. I guess we're supposed to conclude they've read the Odyssey, too?)
Anyway, lest I waffle on forever, let me come to the point: The bit about Tlaloc naming himself after an ancient god comes straight from The Butlerian Jihad:
- Then came a man from the distant Thalim system, a visionary who took the name of Tlaloc after an ancient god of rain.
I see no problem with incorporating this into the article. ??? -- SandChigger ( talk) 00:13, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
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OK, JoshuaZ put a fact tag on this (good catch, btw), but I've decided to move it here for discussion:
- Later, in Children of Dune, Agamemnon is among the voices clamoring for audience in Alia Atreides' Other memory. citation needed
The passage from CoD in question is this:
- "Prescience does this to you," a voice whispered.
- She covered her ears with her hands, thinking: I'm not prescient! The trance doesn't work for me!
- But the voice persisted: "It might work, if you had help."
- "No...no," she whispered.
- Other voices wove around her mind: "I, Agamemnon, your ancestor, demand audience!"
- "No...no. "She pressed her hands against her ears until the flesh answered her with pain.
- An insane cackle within her head asked: "What has become of Ovid? Simple. He's John Bartlett's ibid!"
- The names were meaningless in her extremity. She wanted to scream against them and against all the other voices but could not find her own voice.
Since both the mythico-historical Agamemnon and the Titan Agamemnon are Atreides ancestors (according to "Expanded Canon" at least), the reference is ambiguous at best. As such, the statement above cannot be allowed into the article as is. (Who added this, anyway? I'm going to check the article history after saving.) -- SandChigger 19:55, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
- I think we can assume that Frank was talking about the mythological Agamemnon, since the Titan is a Brian/Kevin creation (and as we all know, there has been no indication from them what they specifically lifted from Frank's notes and what was their own). But of course, there is really no way of ever knowing for sure, so it can really never be reintroduced into the article unless it's worded like "Either the original or the Titan Agamemnon is among the voices clamoring ..." It's a somewhat interesting tidbit, butI don't know that it's noteworthy enough to be included at all. TAnthony 20:13, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
- LOL. And here I went to such pains to leave out my POV earlier! I agree. Anyway, I found the culprit. The line was added by User:70.137.184.250, here on July 7, 2006. Seems to have been a bit of a flash in the pan, and to have a bit of attitude, if his talk page is any indication. Mystery solved. A bit embarrassing, though, that it was let stand this long. -- SandChigger 20:21, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
how about the rest of the 12 that wasn't written? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.151.169.125 ( talk) 06:32, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- What do you mean? The article says:
- Of the remaining 12 Titans, only Alexander and Tamerlane are explicitly named.
- There's nothing else to know, other than what is written in the new "Dune" books.
- As is stated in the above comments, there is no evidence at present that these "Titan" characters were created by Frank Herbert. There is no mention of them in any of his published Dune books. It is very likely that they were dreamt up by Kevin J. Anderson, based on their and the Cogitor's similarity to the B'omarr Monks he wrote about in his book The Illustrated Star Wars Universe.
- At best these characters (Titans and Cogitors) are early era B-grade scifi movie throwbacks, brains in vats, with a modern Transformers twist. NOT IN ANY WAY WORTHY OF DUNE. Period. -- SandChigger ( talk) 09:20, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- I see the Transformers connection. I see a lot of Darth Vader in them, too. But the Dune - Star Wars symbiosis has been going on for a long time, I think. Cranston Lamont ( talk) 21:48, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
The names of the "Titans" always crack me up. Tlaloc was an Aztec rain god, Xerxes a Persian ruler, Dante an Italian poet, Barbarossa...what, a Frankish king? Pirate? Whatever. They couldn't even be bothered to carry through with the conceit and use the names of the actual Titans from Greek myth.
It's really painful how hard they still try to forge some epic link with mythology. (There's a really strained reference to Scylla and Charybdis in Paul of Dune as well. I guess we're supposed to conclude they've read the Odyssey, too?)
Anyway, lest I waffle on forever, let me come to the point: The bit about Tlaloc naming himself after an ancient god comes straight from The Butlerian Jihad:
- Then came a man from the distant Thalim system, a visionary who took the name of Tlaloc after an ancient god of rain.
I see no problem with incorporating this into the article. ??? -- SandChigger ( talk) 00:13, 12 October 2008 (UTC)