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The contents of the Moscow Centre page were merged into Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy on 10 April 2020. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
Anyone think that the comparison to the Odyssey is a bit far-fetched? Seems like original research, in a way. I tried finding some reference to it elsewere, but didn't see anything. At the very least I think it needs less promenient of a mention. As it stands it almost makes the book seem like it's Ulysses, O Brother Where Art Thou, or one of many other works that are very directly inspired by the Odyssey. It really isn't. - R. fiend 15:43, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Image:JohnLeCarre TinkerTailorSoldierSpy.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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Image:Tinkertailor.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 02:10, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
For example, Control aide in the book is not Mendel, who is (in the novel) Smiley's backup and a retired police officer. There are more mistakes.
As an article for the BBC mini series, this is fine, but by no means for the novel. There are many facets in the novel which neglected.
for additional discussion I may be contacted as zarnivop in gm^ail (remove the roof, of course). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.178.46.207 ( talk) 10:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I believe that the plot summary requires heavy copyediting. At present, much of it is in rather stilted English, with some very obscure phrasing and meanings. Many sentences are written back to front as compared with everyday English and are hard to understand at first reading. HLGallon ( talk) 20:43, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
I must admit that I find the whole issue of Tarr, his common-law wife and his daughter using passports in the name of Poole incomprehensible. How does Guillam deduce the connection to his own mistress, Camilla? What makes him realize that Dr. Sand, Camilla's music-tutor, is her ex-husband? None of this appears in the plot summary on the Article page. If any one can alleviate my ignorance, or my lack of deductive skills, I'll be most grateful. PeadarMaguidhir ( talk) 09:56, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Alas, I have read the book three times, so I think I must resign myself to an admission of stupidity. PeadarMaguidhir ( talk) 07:08, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Re WP:CRYSTAL, I was reading the bit that said "Individual scheduled or expected future events should only be included if the event is notable and almost certain to take place." However, perhaps I should have put more weight on "If preparation for the event is not already in progress, speculation about it must be well documented.", so maybe the Oldman stuff is OK.-- WickerGuy ( talk) 22:24, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
These actually seem a bit conflicting. If the event is "almost certain" then doesn't this almost entirely exclude anything that would be called "speculation", even if "well-documented"?? Other opinions welcome.-- WickerGuy ( talk) 23:37, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
It looks to me as though there are some issues with this section. If you follow the links for Maurice Oldfield or Markus Wolf, both of whom this article claims characters in the book were modelled on, the articles suggest that Le Carre strongly disputes this. At best this implies the articles are inconsistent with each other, but (and in my opinion more likely), it implies this article presents speculation as fact. Phnord ( talk) 21:33, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
The anon. IP 94.193.220.27 deleted the sentence "Rich man is not used because it's two words", and explained the deletion as "Poppycock. 1) the book says nothing of the sort, 2) If it is then so is "Poor man" 3) Le Carre writes Poorman as one word, he very plausibly would have written Richman the same way if it were mentioned". The rationale that "Rich man" was discarded as being two words comes not from the original book but the BBC Television series of 1979. Prideaux's description of his meeting with Control had presumably to be fleshed out from Le Carre's half-page precis to a suitably long scene. (Control discarded "Poorman" on grounds of dislike, not being two words.) While not 100% canonical therefore, the BBC did work closely with Le Carre, and would not gratuitously have introduced their own original research. HLGallon ( talk) 22:40, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Does anyone know whether the tradecraft terms Le Carre uses in Tinker and his other books, "scalphunters", "lamplighters", "burning" etc. were actually used within MI6, or whether he made them up? Le Carre has said that the term "mole" was actually used by Soviet intelligence, but how about the others? If we can find a source, this would be a good thing to add to the article. -- Chetvorno TALK 00:23, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
Where in the list of minor characters do we find Miles Sercombe, the minister and head of the governmental department under which the Circus belongs as well as Ann Smiley´s cousin?
Since my English is not good enough, I keep away from doing the amendments myself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.58.35.34 ( talk) 20:59, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
It looks like Jmatazzoni's recent edits, where the commas are removed from the name of the book, are correct. This should be done throughout the article, especially in the title, which would mean moving the article. I will do so if nobody has any objections. See John Le Carre's website. -- Wgsimon ( talk) 10:47, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
This part really needs rewriting. At least half is not currently in proper prose form: in some cases, there are quotes which are simply added without context or explanation. Most are not even proper sentences and, for some reason, whoever wrote it just added "Oxford" or "Cambridge" to each person's description. Presumably, this relates to their place of education, but it is poor style and might well be confusing to many readers. Unfortunately, I do not have the books on me, but I thought that, should someone with the books see this, they might want to improve the section. Regards, — Noswall59 ( talk) 13:35, 18 February 2015 (UTC).
Ricki Tarr link goes back to main page, needs fixing or link removed. Also wish there was a more complete character list. 24.151.184.228 ( talk) 15:10, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
Any contention drawing a conclusion based on the work, or research — for instance, under heading Jargon, that the term "honey trap" originated with Le Carre's publications — needs to be the result of an editor's communication of material elsewhere appearing in a published source. This is Wikipedia policy. 2601:246:CA80:3CB5:94DA:DFB8:C845:3AA3 ( talk) 17:44, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
I propose that Ricki Tarr be merged into Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy. Ricky is a minor character in a single book with no independent WP:RS coverage (that I'm a aware of) and almost certainly fails notability requirements. The merger would be easy because most of the material in the Ricky article just duplicates content the Tinker Tailor article already contains. Kramler ( talk) 18:40, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
I propose to merge Moscow Centre into Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy. Moscow Centre is introduced in this first of three tales of George Smiley and the content in the Moscow Center article can easily be explained in the context of Tinker Tailor. The Moscow Centre article has little content and no significant references that could not easily be merged into Tinker Tailor. This merger won't cause any problems as far as article size is concerned. Geoff | Who, me? 19:52, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
1924 Contemp. Rev. May 698 Two years later,..when Zinovieff had come over from Moscow to keep the German Independents under the dictation of the Moscow Centre, the final split occurred.
I have added the {{long plot}} template to the article, as I believe that the plot summary includes far too much detail, and now requires the article's reader to scroll down over almost three pages to get to the end of the section. The important details are overwhelmed in the asides or trivia. See also MOS:PLOT. HLGallon ( talk) 15:04, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
The second and fourth sentences of the four sentences of the Jargon section contradict each other. The second sentence provides that "Le Carré has noted that with the exception of a few terms like mole and legend this jargon was his own invention." But the fourth holds that "For example, the terms mole, ... and ..., were first introduced in this novel, ..." 'Mole' was either already in use or Le Carré coined it, but not both.
Here's the entire section as it is now:
"Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy employs spy jargon that is presented as the authentic insider-speak of British Intelligence. Le Carré has noted that with the exception of a few terms like mole and legend this jargon was his own invention.[10] In some cases, terms used in the novel have subsequently entered espionage parlance.[5] For example, the terms mole,[11] implying a long-term spy, and honey trap,[12] implying a ploy in which an attractive person lures another into revealing information, were first introduced in this novel, and have only subsequently entered general usage." — Preceding unsigned comment added by DementiaBadToday ( talk • contribs) 02:25, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
Yes, a lot of these were at most popularised by him, or transposed from civilian or military slang to intelligence jargon. He employs it with such flair that I don't think there is too much need to credit him with inventing it all from whole cloth when he probably didn't. It's also worth remembering that spies and writers are terrific liars, and that for all the assertions of candour in The Pidgeon Tunnel, his posthumously published letters are frequently at odds with aspects of his autobiography and comments in interviews.
A few which struck me as either obviously borrowed or at least somewhat fishy:
'Persil' or 'Persilschein' was widespread German slang in the immediate postwar period to indicate that someone seeking a denazification certificate had been judged 'Entlastete' (exonerated). Given the author’s service in postwar Germany, it seems hard to imagine that isn’t where he borrowed it from.
‘Cousins’ pops up in a British officer’s diary entry referring to members of the OSS active during the liberation of Paris. I can’t remember the name, but I shall add a reference if I do.
‘Hood’ as a contraction of [criminal] hoodlum goes back to the 1870s. Spies have employed criminals since antiquity, so no great creative spark was required here.
‘Coat trailing’ was in military use in the 1940s referring to tactical scale efforts to provoke an enemy approach.
'Honeypot' was being used in the 1930s to an attractive female outside of espionage circles. There is also a loose connection via simile here: 'As rife as wasps around a honey pot. Every woman was a potential spy, adventuress or Secret Service siren.' 'Thank God for Laughter' Lawton, M.E. (1936)
There is an ambiguous usage of 'scalphunter' from a 1918 case of telegraph signals intelligence at a Norwegian telegraph company. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HyperlogiK ( talk • contribs) 12:10, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||
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The contents of the Moscow Centre page were merged into Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy on 10 April 2020. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
Anyone think that the comparison to the Odyssey is a bit far-fetched? Seems like original research, in a way. I tried finding some reference to it elsewere, but didn't see anything. At the very least I think it needs less promenient of a mention. As it stands it almost makes the book seem like it's Ulysses, O Brother Where Art Thou, or one of many other works that are very directly inspired by the Odyssey. It really isn't. - R. fiend 15:43, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Image:JohnLeCarre TinkerTailorSoldierSpy.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot 06:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Image:Tinkertailor.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 02:10, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
For example, Control aide in the book is not Mendel, who is (in the novel) Smiley's backup and a retired police officer. There are more mistakes.
As an article for the BBC mini series, this is fine, but by no means for the novel. There are many facets in the novel which neglected.
for additional discussion I may be contacted as zarnivop in gm^ail (remove the roof, of course). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.178.46.207 ( talk) 10:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I believe that the plot summary requires heavy copyediting. At present, much of it is in rather stilted English, with some very obscure phrasing and meanings. Many sentences are written back to front as compared with everyday English and are hard to understand at first reading. HLGallon ( talk) 20:43, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
I must admit that I find the whole issue of Tarr, his common-law wife and his daughter using passports in the name of Poole incomprehensible. How does Guillam deduce the connection to his own mistress, Camilla? What makes him realize that Dr. Sand, Camilla's music-tutor, is her ex-husband? None of this appears in the plot summary on the Article page. If any one can alleviate my ignorance, or my lack of deductive skills, I'll be most grateful. PeadarMaguidhir ( talk) 09:56, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Alas, I have read the book three times, so I think I must resign myself to an admission of stupidity. PeadarMaguidhir ( talk) 07:08, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Re WP:CRYSTAL, I was reading the bit that said "Individual scheduled or expected future events should only be included if the event is notable and almost certain to take place." However, perhaps I should have put more weight on "If preparation for the event is not already in progress, speculation about it must be well documented.", so maybe the Oldman stuff is OK.-- WickerGuy ( talk) 22:24, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
These actually seem a bit conflicting. If the event is "almost certain" then doesn't this almost entirely exclude anything that would be called "speculation", even if "well-documented"?? Other opinions welcome.-- WickerGuy ( talk) 23:37, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
It looks to me as though there are some issues with this section. If you follow the links for Maurice Oldfield or Markus Wolf, both of whom this article claims characters in the book were modelled on, the articles suggest that Le Carre strongly disputes this. At best this implies the articles are inconsistent with each other, but (and in my opinion more likely), it implies this article presents speculation as fact. Phnord ( talk) 21:33, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
The anon. IP 94.193.220.27 deleted the sentence "Rich man is not used because it's two words", and explained the deletion as "Poppycock. 1) the book says nothing of the sort, 2) If it is then so is "Poor man" 3) Le Carre writes Poorman as one word, he very plausibly would have written Richman the same way if it were mentioned". The rationale that "Rich man" was discarded as being two words comes not from the original book but the BBC Television series of 1979. Prideaux's description of his meeting with Control had presumably to be fleshed out from Le Carre's half-page precis to a suitably long scene. (Control discarded "Poorman" on grounds of dislike, not being two words.) While not 100% canonical therefore, the BBC did work closely with Le Carre, and would not gratuitously have introduced their own original research. HLGallon ( talk) 22:40, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Does anyone know whether the tradecraft terms Le Carre uses in Tinker and his other books, "scalphunters", "lamplighters", "burning" etc. were actually used within MI6, or whether he made them up? Le Carre has said that the term "mole" was actually used by Soviet intelligence, but how about the others? If we can find a source, this would be a good thing to add to the article. -- Chetvorno TALK 00:23, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
Where in the list of minor characters do we find Miles Sercombe, the minister and head of the governmental department under which the Circus belongs as well as Ann Smiley´s cousin?
Since my English is not good enough, I keep away from doing the amendments myself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.58.35.34 ( talk) 20:59, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
It looks like Jmatazzoni's recent edits, where the commas are removed from the name of the book, are correct. This should be done throughout the article, especially in the title, which would mean moving the article. I will do so if nobody has any objections. See John Le Carre's website. -- Wgsimon ( talk) 10:47, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
This part really needs rewriting. At least half is not currently in proper prose form: in some cases, there are quotes which are simply added without context or explanation. Most are not even proper sentences and, for some reason, whoever wrote it just added "Oxford" or "Cambridge" to each person's description. Presumably, this relates to their place of education, but it is poor style and might well be confusing to many readers. Unfortunately, I do not have the books on me, but I thought that, should someone with the books see this, they might want to improve the section. Regards, — Noswall59 ( talk) 13:35, 18 February 2015 (UTC).
Ricki Tarr link goes back to main page, needs fixing or link removed. Also wish there was a more complete character list. 24.151.184.228 ( talk) 15:10, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
Any contention drawing a conclusion based on the work, or research — for instance, under heading Jargon, that the term "honey trap" originated with Le Carre's publications — needs to be the result of an editor's communication of material elsewhere appearing in a published source. This is Wikipedia policy. 2601:246:CA80:3CB5:94DA:DFB8:C845:3AA3 ( talk) 17:44, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
I propose that Ricki Tarr be merged into Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy. Ricky is a minor character in a single book with no independent WP:RS coverage (that I'm a aware of) and almost certainly fails notability requirements. The merger would be easy because most of the material in the Ricky article just duplicates content the Tinker Tailor article already contains. Kramler ( talk) 18:40, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
I propose to merge Moscow Centre into Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy. Moscow Centre is introduced in this first of three tales of George Smiley and the content in the Moscow Center article can easily be explained in the context of Tinker Tailor. The Moscow Centre article has little content and no significant references that could not easily be merged into Tinker Tailor. This merger won't cause any problems as far as article size is concerned. Geoff | Who, me? 19:52, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
1924 Contemp. Rev. May 698 Two years later,..when Zinovieff had come over from Moscow to keep the German Independents under the dictation of the Moscow Centre, the final split occurred.
I have added the {{long plot}} template to the article, as I believe that the plot summary includes far too much detail, and now requires the article's reader to scroll down over almost three pages to get to the end of the section. The important details are overwhelmed in the asides or trivia. See also MOS:PLOT. HLGallon ( talk) 15:04, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
The second and fourth sentences of the four sentences of the Jargon section contradict each other. The second sentence provides that "Le Carré has noted that with the exception of a few terms like mole and legend this jargon was his own invention." But the fourth holds that "For example, the terms mole, ... and ..., were first introduced in this novel, ..." 'Mole' was either already in use or Le Carré coined it, but not both.
Here's the entire section as it is now:
"Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy employs spy jargon that is presented as the authentic insider-speak of British Intelligence. Le Carré has noted that with the exception of a few terms like mole and legend this jargon was his own invention.[10] In some cases, terms used in the novel have subsequently entered espionage parlance.[5] For example, the terms mole,[11] implying a long-term spy, and honey trap,[12] implying a ploy in which an attractive person lures another into revealing information, were first introduced in this novel, and have only subsequently entered general usage." — Preceding unsigned comment added by DementiaBadToday ( talk • contribs) 02:25, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
Yes, a lot of these were at most popularised by him, or transposed from civilian or military slang to intelligence jargon. He employs it with such flair that I don't think there is too much need to credit him with inventing it all from whole cloth when he probably didn't. It's also worth remembering that spies and writers are terrific liars, and that for all the assertions of candour in The Pidgeon Tunnel, his posthumously published letters are frequently at odds with aspects of his autobiography and comments in interviews.
A few which struck me as either obviously borrowed or at least somewhat fishy:
'Persil' or 'Persilschein' was widespread German slang in the immediate postwar period to indicate that someone seeking a denazification certificate had been judged 'Entlastete' (exonerated). Given the author’s service in postwar Germany, it seems hard to imagine that isn’t where he borrowed it from.
‘Cousins’ pops up in a British officer’s diary entry referring to members of the OSS active during the liberation of Paris. I can’t remember the name, but I shall add a reference if I do.
‘Hood’ as a contraction of [criminal] hoodlum goes back to the 1870s. Spies have employed criminals since antiquity, so no great creative spark was required here.
‘Coat trailing’ was in military use in the 1940s referring to tactical scale efforts to provoke an enemy approach.
'Honeypot' was being used in the 1930s to an attractive female outside of espionage circles. There is also a loose connection via simile here: 'As rife as wasps around a honey pot. Every woman was a potential spy, adventuress or Secret Service siren.' 'Thank God for Laughter' Lawton, M.E. (1936)
There is an ambiguous usage of 'scalphunter' from a 1918 case of telegraph signals intelligence at a Norwegian telegraph company. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HyperlogiK ( talk • contribs) 12:10, 4 February 2023 (UTC)