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There's too summarizing of POV material from the documentary film. It seems unfair to highlight his drug abuse years as the introduction to who he was. Also no mention about how long he spent with bears. article at the moment sounds like he was a newcomer to bears. That poaching was not a major issue is disputed by Treadwell's friends. (there is a followup film to the documentary where Herzog talks to Treadwell's friends about what they thought about the documentary where they emphasize this and also that they thought the film made Treadwell seem more unbalanced than he really was)
I'll try to address some of these issues later on. - Bwithh 16:55, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
The Death part can be reworded. The "Troopers" part is messy. - Halli —The preceding comment was added by 69.22.244.250 ( talk • contribs) 04:56, 5 February 2006.
I've attempted to clean up this article a bit to make the language and layout more encyclopeadic. I removed a lot of the POV material and added a new section, entitled "Legacy," to cover how he is viewed now after his death. I'm no expert on Treadwell, so I went off of what news articles I could find to try and clean this up. Comments and edits to fix errors and help further this along are encouraged. -- Lendorien 08:39, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I think most of the significant cleanup issues for this article are cleaned up. I propose delisting it as a cleanup candidate. I'll wait a week for responces, then delist it if there are no objections. -- Lendorien 21:37, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I've read in several places that while Katmai was actually Treadwell's favorite, it was not the only park he visited. Do you think that should be included in his bio? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hli ( talk • contribs) 15:43, 5 February 2006
Was "Treadwell" his real last name? I remember hearing somewhere that he changed it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.193.126.138 ( talk • contribs) 11:00, 6 February 2006
The article contradicts itself. In one place it says:
"Whether the tape was actually destroyed or not is unclear."
Later it says:
"The audio recording, along with the other tapes recovered, are all intact"
Which is it?
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.67.158.73 ( talk • contribs) 18:01, 6 February 2006
From what I have read, no-one can be certain if the couple was eaten by one, two or three bears. It is not even clear if more than one bear was responsible for the attack. All they know is that the pilot saw one bear standing over the couple's remains; the same bear that was later shot by park rangers, inside which they found human remains. The younger bear (3yr - which was also shot) was eaten by other bears before authorities got a chance to perform a necropsy. To my knowledge (bear with me...) authorities did not investigate other bears in the area, so no-one knows just how many bears "were involved".
Furthermore, these bears are not grizzly bears, but coastal bears. The word "bear" is therefore, imho, more suitable.
But, to say the couple was eaten by "a bear", let alone "a grizzly bear", is solely based on speculation. Maybe we should say "attacked and partially eaten by bears", suggesting that there might have been more than one bear, and in the worst case scenario we are talking about bears in general, where I am not sure people will necessarily think of a herd of bears, but instead just think of a generic brown bear. Does that make sense? Hli 13:46, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I added a reference to his popular nickname among Alaskan. I would like to see more added on the impression his life and death had on people who live in the state. I don't know how to submit this wikipedia without sounding like a jerk, but from what I understand, he did more damage to bears (the thing he proclaimed to love) and their environment than all the poachers and developers ever could. What is really disturbing is that he had to take someone else with him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thadvde ( talk • contribs) 16:51, 8 February 2006
Having seen the documentary, I find the description of Treadwell's death odd. While the tape is not played, its contents are made clear and there is an interview with the coroner. This evidence shows that Treadwell was attacked by a bear which grabbed his head from behind (claw marks). His girlfriend is heard hitting the bear with a frying pan as Treadwell tells her to run.
The pilot who came to collect the couple found part of Treadwell's head and part of his backbone. The rest of him was found, along with his girlfriend, inside the stomach of a bear shot at the scene as it attacked the party sent to recover the remains.
As it stands, this article implies there is some lack of clarity on the matter. But remember bears are wild animals and this would not be out of character. Treadwell himself documented how, when food was scarce, the bears ate their own young. They'd have no qualms about eating Treadwell, who had chosen to camp where the bears went to feed and took no precautions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stephennewton ( talk • contribs) 09:30, 14 February 2006
There is a link but there is no article for (her?). Is she the person that was warned not to listen to the tape? Was she a friend or relative of Treadwell? In short, what does she have to do with this? - Kasreyn 21:08, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
From what I remember of the film, she was a former girlfriend and later she worked with timothy on the grizzly people organization, which she still runs or something. her house was in the area where timothy visited and he would start his expeditions there. Bwithh 22:35, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Is there any information out there that would prove / disprove that he was suffering a mental illness recognized by the DSM? His speech patterns certainly resemble some types of OCD, and coupled with his general behavior and skewed perception of reality could possibly even indicate a residual classification of schizophrenia. I just finished watching "Grizzly Man" and I think he had some psychological issues that go beyond being an eccentric. He wasn't a biologist, an animal behaviorist, or really anything above an "enthusiast". His films not only rarely educate, but reveal a deluded impression he had on what he was doing. Whether or not his foundation did any good in setting aside habitats is another matter: his active role of living with the bears clearly demonstrated that he did not have a firm grasp on reality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.63.249.222 ( talk • contribs) 14:56, 1 March 2006
Absolutely. Without a solid reference that he was sufferign a mental disorder this thread should be shut down as utterly off topic, SqueakBox 18:26, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
- One time he went to a doctor. They wanted to put him on some kind of an antidepressant or something to keep his mood, 'cause his moods were so up and down. And he started taking it for a while, and then he stopped. He said, "I had to stop."
- I said, "Why?"
- He said, "Because I can't stop. I can't have the middle grounds. I have to have the highs and the lows. It's a part of my life, it's a part of my personality."
I remember watching "Grizzly Man" with my dad. (Who was often pondering about the sanity of Timothy, but I'm not going to use that as credible evidence :P) I saw one of the vidoes he made, and I really questioned whether he knew what he was doing. The video consisted of him CONSTANTLY swearing and bitching (Sorry, that's the only word I can think of to describe it) about the park rangers and how he "was just trying to save the bears". Ironically, he didn't once say exactly how he was trying to save the bears. But, then again, it may just be my cruddy memory.
Mumbles (
talk)
02:14, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Have temporarily removed the assertion that the tape is available on the Internet - it sounds like an urban myth, I can't substantiate it, and it's possibly libellous. Barnabypage 18:13, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Thought this article by AP provided sound and factual account of Treadwell. Cephas
—The preceding comment was added by 194.80.240.66 ( talk • contribs) 09:04, 4 April 2006.
A recent edit by 60.48.119.2 claims that remains were found in bear manure, including "his missing genitals." I suspect that this is simply vandalism, but I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt. If someone can post a cite to back up the claim, we'll keep it. Otherwise it's gotta go. Anson2995 15:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
There will probably be an upsurge of interest in / activity on this page in the near future - Discovery channel in the UK is (re- ?)showing the "Grizzly Man" documentary at 10pm on the date cited. Since this will (I think) clash with "HogsFather" premiering, it's going to lose some audience, but I'm sure there'll be some comments. From the trailers, "Treadwell" sounds an interesting character, and decidedly odd. I'm going to set the program to tape so I can consider it carefully. A Karley 11:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I heard that timothy treadwell wasn't even real...can anyone verify or care to refute this?
This article needs much more than just a "clean up" -- it needs to be rewritten by someone who knows the subject. Herzog's documentary leaves much to be desired when it comes to telling the whole story of Timothy Treadwell. There is a wealth of information out there regarding Treadwell if you know where to look. In addition to the seemingly countless articles about Tim all over the Internet, there have also been two books written about Treadwell (by Nick Jans and Mike Lapinski) which go into detail dispelling the myth surrounding the man. Then, there is Treadwell's National Park Service (NPS) file in which actual letters from Treadwell himself contradict many common misconceptions about his time in Katmai. Given that none of these publications were mentioned here, and given that this article contains so many inaccuracies, more insight into the matter is sorely needed before it can be finalized.
Here's a case in point . . . you cannot talk about Treadwell protecting bears without mentioning Tim's relationship with Tom Walters and Joe Allen and with his corporate sponsor, Patagonia, Inc. Also, note that the 5 bears “poached” after Treadwell’s death were killed in the Preserve, not in the Park. The Preserve is adjacent to the Park and is a designated hunting area accessible by 4-wheel vehicles, but not from where Treadwell camped some 50 miles away.
Another case in point . . . Treadwell did not spend most of his time in the so-called "Grizzly Maze" near Kaflia Bay. The vast majority of the time Tim was in Katmai, he camped near the coast in Hallo Bay on what is known locally as the "Big Green" because of all the bear grass growing there. Neither area is anywhere near the Preserve.
In other words, a little knowledge of documented facts, a modest gander at a map of Katmai, Tim’s own words, and a healthy dose of common sense easy dispel any notion that Treadwell was protecting all 2,000 bears spread out over a national park consisting of some 6,000 square miles. That Treadwell admitted to Tom Walters there were no poachers seems to be a little-known and seldom-mentioned fact.
Then, there’s Roland Dixon and Jewel Palovak (and many others) who provided meaningful insight into Tim’s mental health. You cannot discuss this subject without their input.
Most of what is known about Tim’s early life didn’t just come from his book. It comes from his parents, old girlfriends, friends, college teammates and coach, co-workers, and many others. None of these accounts are in Tim’s book. In fact, many of these accounts were deliberately left out of his book. And such is the case with Herzog’s documentary.
With any discussion of the cause of Tim and Amie’s deaths, the National Park Service file on Treadwell, particularly Tim’s letter about electric bear fences, must be included. Then, there’s Tim’s final letter to Roland Dixon. Together, they leave us with the understanding that this tragedy was preventable.
Finally, to point out just one gross inaccuracy in this article, Tim indeed used "protection" during his early years in Katmai -- both bear spray and an electric fence. As a matter of record, Tim wrote to the NPS asking for help in putting up a fence. (Treadwell was trying to get the NPS off his back for not practicing proper bear safety.) This letter, written around 2001 or so, is in his NPS file. Then, in his final letter to Roland Dixon written shortly before his death, he explains why he once again quit using the fence.
I suggest this article needs a whole lot more work . . . from scratch. -- Of Heros and Myths 06:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
In the film it is mentioned that the bears that Treadwell had become accostumed to in the Grizzly Maze had already gone on to hibernating grounds, and bears from the north - ones Treadwell was not accostumed to - had moved south into the Maze on their own way to hibernating grounds. As Treadwell was in the field longer than he had ever spent in the thirteen years he went there, and 'his' bears had all left the area, I think it's an important point to make - and the film points this out as well - that bear 141 was a stranger to Treadwell during a time of year that Treadwell had never previously spent in the Maze. This may have had some consequence on the attack. Herzog seems to think so. Worth adding to article? -- Bentonia School 15:23, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
The poor fellow was a literal victim of the liberal-romanticist ideology, the "noble savagery" of "uninhibited nature". Democratic romanticism and its communistic valorization of "free, a-moral nature" is cleary allied to psychological abnormality and stunted moral growth. The poor fellow was "personifying" and "humanizing" creatures who were separated from human instincts and perceptions by a wide and unbridgeable gulf, and accordingly paid the bloody price for his fallacious primitivist romanticism...
He can't have travelled to "Grizzly Maze" in October, as the article currently states, when he was already killed on the 5.th of that month. Maikel 23:12, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
There are only two sources on this entire page, yet the lack of sources is only brought up in the section titled "problems". It seems like the article disagrees with the "critical" view of Treadwell, even though that view is apparently valid, or at least warranted, after viewing "Grizzly Man". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.118.123.65 ( talk) 18:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Not sure if the headings should read as they currently do so I standardized them 198.6.46.11 ( talk) 18:28, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
There's too summarizing of POV material from the documentary film. It seems unfair to highlight his drug abuse years as the introduction to who he was. Also no mention about how long he spent with bears. article at the moment sounds like he was a newcomer to bears. That poaching was not a major issue is disputed by Treadwell's friends. (there is a followup film to the documentary where Herzog talks to Treadwell's friends about what they thought about the documentary where they emphasize this and also that they thought the film made Treadwell seem more unbalanced than he really was)
I'll try to address some of these issues later on. - Bwithh 16:55, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
The Death part can be reworded. The "Troopers" part is messy. - Halli —The preceding comment was added by 69.22.244.250 ( talk • contribs) 04:56, 5 February 2006.
I've attempted to clean up this article a bit to make the language and layout more encyclopeadic. I removed a lot of the POV material and added a new section, entitled "Legacy," to cover how he is viewed now after his death. I'm no expert on Treadwell, so I went off of what news articles I could find to try and clean this up. Comments and edits to fix errors and help further this along are encouraged. -- Lendorien 08:39, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I think most of the significant cleanup issues for this article are cleaned up. I propose delisting it as a cleanup candidate. I'll wait a week for responces, then delist it if there are no objections. -- Lendorien 21:37, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I've read in several places that while Katmai was actually Treadwell's favorite, it was not the only park he visited. Do you think that should be included in his bio? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hli ( talk • contribs) 15:43, 5 February 2006
Was "Treadwell" his real last name? I remember hearing somewhere that he changed it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.193.126.138 ( talk • contribs) 11:00, 6 February 2006
The article contradicts itself. In one place it says:
"Whether the tape was actually destroyed or not is unclear."
Later it says:
"The audio recording, along with the other tapes recovered, are all intact"
Which is it?
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.67.158.73 ( talk • contribs) 18:01, 6 February 2006
From what I have read, no-one can be certain if the couple was eaten by one, two or three bears. It is not even clear if more than one bear was responsible for the attack. All they know is that the pilot saw one bear standing over the couple's remains; the same bear that was later shot by park rangers, inside which they found human remains. The younger bear (3yr - which was also shot) was eaten by other bears before authorities got a chance to perform a necropsy. To my knowledge (bear with me...) authorities did not investigate other bears in the area, so no-one knows just how many bears "were involved".
Furthermore, these bears are not grizzly bears, but coastal bears. The word "bear" is therefore, imho, more suitable.
But, to say the couple was eaten by "a bear", let alone "a grizzly bear", is solely based on speculation. Maybe we should say "attacked and partially eaten by bears", suggesting that there might have been more than one bear, and in the worst case scenario we are talking about bears in general, where I am not sure people will necessarily think of a herd of bears, but instead just think of a generic brown bear. Does that make sense? Hli 13:46, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I added a reference to his popular nickname among Alaskan. I would like to see more added on the impression his life and death had on people who live in the state. I don't know how to submit this wikipedia without sounding like a jerk, but from what I understand, he did more damage to bears (the thing he proclaimed to love) and their environment than all the poachers and developers ever could. What is really disturbing is that he had to take someone else with him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thadvde ( talk • contribs) 16:51, 8 February 2006
Having seen the documentary, I find the description of Treadwell's death odd. While the tape is not played, its contents are made clear and there is an interview with the coroner. This evidence shows that Treadwell was attacked by a bear which grabbed his head from behind (claw marks). His girlfriend is heard hitting the bear with a frying pan as Treadwell tells her to run.
The pilot who came to collect the couple found part of Treadwell's head and part of his backbone. The rest of him was found, along with his girlfriend, inside the stomach of a bear shot at the scene as it attacked the party sent to recover the remains.
As it stands, this article implies there is some lack of clarity on the matter. But remember bears are wild animals and this would not be out of character. Treadwell himself documented how, when food was scarce, the bears ate their own young. They'd have no qualms about eating Treadwell, who had chosen to camp where the bears went to feed and took no precautions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stephennewton ( talk • contribs) 09:30, 14 February 2006
There is a link but there is no article for (her?). Is she the person that was warned not to listen to the tape? Was she a friend or relative of Treadwell? In short, what does she have to do with this? - Kasreyn 21:08, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
From what I remember of the film, she was a former girlfriend and later she worked with timothy on the grizzly people organization, which she still runs or something. her house was in the area where timothy visited and he would start his expeditions there. Bwithh 22:35, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Is there any information out there that would prove / disprove that he was suffering a mental illness recognized by the DSM? His speech patterns certainly resemble some types of OCD, and coupled with his general behavior and skewed perception of reality could possibly even indicate a residual classification of schizophrenia. I just finished watching "Grizzly Man" and I think he had some psychological issues that go beyond being an eccentric. He wasn't a biologist, an animal behaviorist, or really anything above an "enthusiast". His films not only rarely educate, but reveal a deluded impression he had on what he was doing. Whether or not his foundation did any good in setting aside habitats is another matter: his active role of living with the bears clearly demonstrated that he did not have a firm grasp on reality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.63.249.222 ( talk • contribs) 14:56, 1 March 2006
Absolutely. Without a solid reference that he was sufferign a mental disorder this thread should be shut down as utterly off topic, SqueakBox 18:26, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
- One time he went to a doctor. They wanted to put him on some kind of an antidepressant or something to keep his mood, 'cause his moods were so up and down. And he started taking it for a while, and then he stopped. He said, "I had to stop."
- I said, "Why?"
- He said, "Because I can't stop. I can't have the middle grounds. I have to have the highs and the lows. It's a part of my life, it's a part of my personality."
I remember watching "Grizzly Man" with my dad. (Who was often pondering about the sanity of Timothy, but I'm not going to use that as credible evidence :P) I saw one of the vidoes he made, and I really questioned whether he knew what he was doing. The video consisted of him CONSTANTLY swearing and bitching (Sorry, that's the only word I can think of to describe it) about the park rangers and how he "was just trying to save the bears". Ironically, he didn't once say exactly how he was trying to save the bears. But, then again, it may just be my cruddy memory.
Mumbles (
talk)
02:14, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Have temporarily removed the assertion that the tape is available on the Internet - it sounds like an urban myth, I can't substantiate it, and it's possibly libellous. Barnabypage 18:13, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Thought this article by AP provided sound and factual account of Treadwell. Cephas
—The preceding comment was added by 194.80.240.66 ( talk • contribs) 09:04, 4 April 2006.
A recent edit by 60.48.119.2 claims that remains were found in bear manure, including "his missing genitals." I suspect that this is simply vandalism, but I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt. If someone can post a cite to back up the claim, we'll keep it. Otherwise it's gotta go. Anson2995 15:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
There will probably be an upsurge of interest in / activity on this page in the near future - Discovery channel in the UK is (re- ?)showing the "Grizzly Man" documentary at 10pm on the date cited. Since this will (I think) clash with "HogsFather" premiering, it's going to lose some audience, but I'm sure there'll be some comments. From the trailers, "Treadwell" sounds an interesting character, and decidedly odd. I'm going to set the program to tape so I can consider it carefully. A Karley 11:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I heard that timothy treadwell wasn't even real...can anyone verify or care to refute this?
This article needs much more than just a "clean up" -- it needs to be rewritten by someone who knows the subject. Herzog's documentary leaves much to be desired when it comes to telling the whole story of Timothy Treadwell. There is a wealth of information out there regarding Treadwell if you know where to look. In addition to the seemingly countless articles about Tim all over the Internet, there have also been two books written about Treadwell (by Nick Jans and Mike Lapinski) which go into detail dispelling the myth surrounding the man. Then, there is Treadwell's National Park Service (NPS) file in which actual letters from Treadwell himself contradict many common misconceptions about his time in Katmai. Given that none of these publications were mentioned here, and given that this article contains so many inaccuracies, more insight into the matter is sorely needed before it can be finalized.
Here's a case in point . . . you cannot talk about Treadwell protecting bears without mentioning Tim's relationship with Tom Walters and Joe Allen and with his corporate sponsor, Patagonia, Inc. Also, note that the 5 bears “poached” after Treadwell’s death were killed in the Preserve, not in the Park. The Preserve is adjacent to the Park and is a designated hunting area accessible by 4-wheel vehicles, but not from where Treadwell camped some 50 miles away.
Another case in point . . . Treadwell did not spend most of his time in the so-called "Grizzly Maze" near Kaflia Bay. The vast majority of the time Tim was in Katmai, he camped near the coast in Hallo Bay on what is known locally as the "Big Green" because of all the bear grass growing there. Neither area is anywhere near the Preserve.
In other words, a little knowledge of documented facts, a modest gander at a map of Katmai, Tim’s own words, and a healthy dose of common sense easy dispel any notion that Treadwell was protecting all 2,000 bears spread out over a national park consisting of some 6,000 square miles. That Treadwell admitted to Tom Walters there were no poachers seems to be a little-known and seldom-mentioned fact.
Then, there’s Roland Dixon and Jewel Palovak (and many others) who provided meaningful insight into Tim’s mental health. You cannot discuss this subject without their input.
Most of what is known about Tim’s early life didn’t just come from his book. It comes from his parents, old girlfriends, friends, college teammates and coach, co-workers, and many others. None of these accounts are in Tim’s book. In fact, many of these accounts were deliberately left out of his book. And such is the case with Herzog’s documentary.
With any discussion of the cause of Tim and Amie’s deaths, the National Park Service file on Treadwell, particularly Tim’s letter about electric bear fences, must be included. Then, there’s Tim’s final letter to Roland Dixon. Together, they leave us with the understanding that this tragedy was preventable.
Finally, to point out just one gross inaccuracy in this article, Tim indeed used "protection" during his early years in Katmai -- both bear spray and an electric fence. As a matter of record, Tim wrote to the NPS asking for help in putting up a fence. (Treadwell was trying to get the NPS off his back for not practicing proper bear safety.) This letter, written around 2001 or so, is in his NPS file. Then, in his final letter to Roland Dixon written shortly before his death, he explains why he once again quit using the fence.
I suggest this article needs a whole lot more work . . . from scratch. -- Of Heros and Myths 06:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
In the film it is mentioned that the bears that Treadwell had become accostumed to in the Grizzly Maze had already gone on to hibernating grounds, and bears from the north - ones Treadwell was not accostumed to - had moved south into the Maze on their own way to hibernating grounds. As Treadwell was in the field longer than he had ever spent in the thirteen years he went there, and 'his' bears had all left the area, I think it's an important point to make - and the film points this out as well - that bear 141 was a stranger to Treadwell during a time of year that Treadwell had never previously spent in the Maze. This may have had some consequence on the attack. Herzog seems to think so. Worth adding to article? -- Bentonia School 15:23, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
The poor fellow was a literal victim of the liberal-romanticist ideology, the "noble savagery" of "uninhibited nature". Democratic romanticism and its communistic valorization of "free, a-moral nature" is cleary allied to psychological abnormality and stunted moral growth. The poor fellow was "personifying" and "humanizing" creatures who were separated from human instincts and perceptions by a wide and unbridgeable gulf, and accordingly paid the bloody price for his fallacious primitivist romanticism...
He can't have travelled to "Grizzly Maze" in October, as the article currently states, when he was already killed on the 5.th of that month. Maikel 23:12, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
There are only two sources on this entire page, yet the lack of sources is only brought up in the section titled "problems". It seems like the article disagrees with the "critical" view of Treadwell, even though that view is apparently valid, or at least warranted, after viewing "Grizzly Man". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.118.123.65 ( talk) 18:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Not sure if the headings should read as they currently do so I standardized them 198.6.46.11 ( talk) 18:28, 19 March 2008 (UTC)