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"McVeigh's first trial attorney, Stephen Jones (attorney), also suggested in his book on the case that Terry Nichols had crossed paths with suspected Islamic terrorists during his frequent visits to the Philippines before the attacks. Nichols' father-in-law at the time was a Philippine police officer who owned an apartment building often rented to Arabic-speaking students with alleged terrorist connections." - citations needed, and context must be provided. Exactly what is being alleged here? This information is irrelevant if nothing is being alleged, and if something is being alleged, far more proof and context are needed.
There is little pleasure to be found in refining these details, but there is more to this subject. Other principal actors, especially Terry Nichols, need a place, as does the citizens petition presented by Rep. Charles Key for a grand jury which led to Nichols' indictmentin Oklahoma state court. Back in the OKBomb page, the brig. gens'. detonation analysis was perhaps outdated by revelations that nitromethane was the primary hydrocarbon component of the bomb, rather than far less volatile deisel oil. The "Reichstag fire" theory is popular, but several other theories are worth noting, including those involving and not involving gov complicity . There is evidence the gov knew (check Carol Howe, Andrew Strasmeyer) something was afoot, there is evidence infiltrators of right wing groups might have gone rogue on thier handlers (The Midwest Bank Robbers, Secret Service gained release of robbery suspect from GA jail), and some of the geographic locations involveed (elohim city especially) deserve mention. There are reliable witness accounts reported in several sources (which I verified with the original witnesses and/or investigators) of a group of surly men at the KS lake where the gov says the bomb was assembled, and that there were was another Ryder truck and a stakeside truck involved in transfering or staging the bomb components.
None of the evidence anomylous to the gov case needs outweight the popular theory advanced by McVeigh himself before his death that he acted alone, but it needs room in the account, IMHO. More details of his life, military career and pre-bombing affiliations can all go here, too.
JRT7 08:37, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
it would be usseful for the article to go into some details (or even mention) his relationship with these movements.
The fact that the McVeigh called it a 'manifesto' indicates - nothing. Try reading this: Manifesto. And don't tell us now that the "Fascist Manifesto" indicates alliegance to Marx.
The truth is very easy and obvious: McVeigh's hero was Earl Turner from militia's beloved The Turner Diaries and McVeigh was a right-winger. And like all right-wingers he liked to blame the goverment and the liberals for his own miserable life. And like all right-wingers he enjoyed killing innocent people. And that's that.
-- 172.177.247.183 20:28, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Before his execution, some speculated McVeigh was framed, or that others were involved.
Various analysts have suggested the government had a role in a conspiracy behind the bombing, or even planned the attack, so as to have grounds for persecuting right-wing organizations in a manner similar to Nazi prosecution of legislators after the Reichstag fire.
I think that Wikipedia should be above using such non-specific attributions as "some" or "various analysts". If Wikipedia is going to include conspiracy theories, we need to be a little more specific about the people or groups advancing them. In this case, I suspect that "various analysts" gives more credibility to the claim than would be the case if proper attribution was made.
Couldn't agree more. The site now reads (Apr 7, 06) that it's religious extremist groups (Islamic and Christian) that he's had contact with. What next? He communed with the devil?
What happened to the links? Why have they all turned red? -- Euniana 09:26, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It was the first execution of a convicted criminal by the federal government of the United States since the execution of Victor Feguer in Iowa on March 15, 1963. Uh - really? I could have sworn that there were some other executions between 1963 and 2001. Captainmax 01:02, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
(Protected Page) [Revised: Unprotected])--NYScholar 02:07, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I believe calling McVeigh a terrorist wholesale is incorrect. Terrorist is a highly POV term and that is why even the media refuse to use that word. He was, however, convincted of terrorist charges, which is correctly defined in the article as it is. Please see Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid
If we are to allowed to use such POV terms, then such POV terms can also apply to Sharon and Bush and even Mandela. We can not call Mandela a terrorist wholesale just because he was convincted of terrorist acts by the aparthied government. 66.194.152.87 11:33, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Well, after thinking a bit, I do agree that the word "terrorist" can be a loaded phrase (that's why Reuters banned it -- stupid if you ask me, though the discussion isn't). One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. That isn't to say, though, that it shouldn't be used -- but I think it should be used judiciously. It seems to me that most people would consider McVeigh a terrorist. The FBI certainly did: On August 14, McVeigh was sentenced to death for carrying out the most deadly act of terrorism in U.S. history. ( [2]) I think that's good enough for me. · Katefan0 (scribble) 03:03, May 4, 2005 (UTC)
I thought wikipedia is supposed to describe what people say, write and think, not make value judgements of its own. McVeigh is a hero to many people for blowing up the FBI secret police of an oppressive government that killed children in Waco, Texas. -- Spaz 03:06, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
[Note: Moved the above comments by User Katefan0 to this section from a separate section (RFC, originally below) because it relates to this discussion topically and chronologically). --NYScholar 04:28, 7 August 2006 (UTC)]
I've protected the page, I'm not sure how you're going to settle this, does being convicted as a terrorist, I would lean on the side of yes.-- nixie 11:54, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
I have yet to decide on the issue of using the word 'terrorist' to describe McVeigh, but I would like to hear 66.194.152.87's opinion on why the 9-11 hijackers should not be called terrorists. The [
9-11 Attacks] page describes these attacks as 'terrorist'. Should the article instead read, "The September 11, 2001 attacks were a series of coordinated terrorist airplane attacks..."? --
Monkeyman 15:59, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
McVeigh should not be called a terrorist for these reasons: FBI Definition of Terrorism is: Terrorism is the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.. But, of course, by social objectives they cannot mean simple hatred or revenge. Otherwise the Columbine murderers/misfit teens would be included as terrorists. McVeigh and Nichols were possibly anarchists, or government haters, but they did not imagine that they would be making a change. Instead, this was a violent protest act. McVeigh expressed revenge motives. While terrorists are not immune to revenge motives, this is more typically the motives for ordinary murderers, serial murderers and mass murderers. FBI and others also feel that terrorism is a group activity (and by group they do not mean 2 or 3 people). Finally, he was not charged, indicted, convicted, sentenced or executed for terrorism, but rather, most predomenantly, for murder. Granted that murder is used in terrorism, but terrorism is a separate charge and it was available to law enforcement at the time but was not used.
Not sure why it is popular to call this terrorism or why it is important to some people to call it terrorism, but it really is more of a hate crime perpetuated on a large scale. When someone sits in a tower and shoots people out of pure hatred or walks in a McDonalds and does the same ... again out of pure hatred, it is not terrorism. McVeigh's crime was similar though much larger.
Having said that, the fact that many people view his act as a terrorist act should be included.--- Blue Tie 18:22, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
See note 2 in the article on Oklahoma City bombing. Need WP:Reliable sources for support of "many people" as used above and "some" used in note 2 in that article. Comments here seem involved in making semantic distinctions, not always legal distinctions; as demonstrated above, omitting the adjective domestic in the phrase domestic terrorism alters both the term and the concept to terrorism; there are differences in the semantic and legal meanings of domestic terrorism and terrorism (FBI definition) that need research and reliable sources; see, as note 2 refers to, the article on terrorism for more information and perspectives. See the section Terrorism#Examples of major incidents and List of terrorist incidents cited in it. --NYScholar 02:10, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
See also this July 2005 comment from Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Myers, hosted on the US Government Department of State website in an interview:
QUESTION: It [death toll of Iraqi police and civilians] [is] definitely running higher than it was in 2003 and most part of 2004, if the Iraqi numbers are correct. My question is very clear and simple: Why is the American military not able to quell the insurgents in that country?
GENERAL MYERS: I think my answer will be clear and simple, too. The single greatest indigenous act of terror in the United States that I can recall was the bombing of the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City. How many people were involved? Two people. Killed 160 -- 168. Two people.
What if you had a country the size of Iraq, but you had not just two people but maybe 200, and maybe not 200 but 2,000, who, unlike the Murrah bombing, were willing to commit suicide in Iraq as well? This is a situation that the military can have an effect on, and I can guarantee you the coalition in there is having an effect. It would be worse, much worse, if the coalition forces weren't there, and if Iraqi forces weren't there to provide security.
But if you think back to the Murrah Building, two people that cobbled together their own explosives, their own conveyance and had that kind of effect, and you take it times 10 or times 100 or whatever you want to take it times, that's why I go back and why I responded to, I think, one of the previous questions: Success in Iraq will depend on two things. One is political progress. But political progress with all parts of the population feeling as if they have a stake in the new Iraq -- and support for these people will dry up. And that's how you win insurgencies. You don't win them just with military force.
The second thing it's going to take is a strong Iraqi security force with both police and border patrol and army. And that is, in fact, happening.
So you're right. They are picking on the soft and easy targets. That's what they do. They're not picking on the hard targets. (Italics added)
I include the context with the question and the full reply, which deals only in part with comparisons between Oklahoma City bombing and the insurgency in Iraq. From General Myers' pov, the Oklahoma City bombing was an act of "indigenous" or native-born/domestic terrorism and, from that pov, Timothy McVeigh was both an "indigenous terrorist" and a "domestic terrorist," and in his view, a "terrorist" as well; engaged in an "act of terror" (terroristic act); he was not a "foreign-born" or "foreign" terrorist; but he was a "terrorist" of the kind that "indigenous" and "domestic" qualify the term terrorist to mean, in terms of who he was [where he was born] and where [on his native soil, in the US, "domestic" territory] he perpetrated violent acts of bombing a federal building resulting in apparently-indiscriminate deaths of and injuries to fellow Americans and others, regardless of their ages, national and ethnic identities, gender, and so on.
There are differences between semantic quibbling over general meanings of words and their specialized meanings as defined by legislation, courts of law, government policy (including the US Departments of State and Defense), and so on. Words have different kinds of usages; general usage by everyday people is not the same as the specialized kinds. People engaged in semantic quibbles and other kinds of arguments about the meanings of words and their applications and usages need to keep in mind that dictionaries define different kinds of meanings and priortize them by numbering them according to which are most frequently used in the English language and also indicate specialized meanings. If people are going to argue about the applicability and the meanings of words, they need to consult published (peer-reviewed) dictionaries compiled by experts in language, not online sources like Wikipedia, in which words often may seem to mean what (non-peer-reviewed) users want them to mean.
Sometimes the applicability of a word when dealing with the subject of a legal case (the Oklahoma City bombing indictments and trials) is simply not debatable. It is a matter of public record. The applicability of a word is a moot issue. In what Wikipedia terms reliable sources, the Oklahoma City bombing is generally described just as General Myers describes it, as the the worst occurrence of "domestic terrorism" in the history of the United States thus far; whereas 9/11 is considered the worst occurrence of domestic "foreign terrorism" (that is, committed on "domestic soil" or in the US). So far that is general consensus (not among Wikipedia users--who are not reliable authorities) but among sources that Wikipedia policy considers WP:Reliable sources: published and peer-reviewed sources. Such matters of fact presented in reliable sources are not open to votes!
If a person has been indicted, tried, convicted, and put to death for crimes that come under the rubric (of United States law, FBI policy) as a "domestic terrorist" for "murders" that he committed (breaking specific laws), it seems rather absurd to try to argue that he was not the particular kind of criminal that the FBI, the State department, the Defense department, U.S. federal prosecutors, and the U.S. court system (verdict and punishment phases of the trial) (followed by the public) state that he was in court records and in legislation (and according to general consensus). Those who attempt to argue differently appear to have idiosyncratic political or personal agenda led by biases, and not
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view.
Even if McVeigh himself did not "intend" to commit a "terroristic" act; what he did can still be legitimately called a "terroristic" act due to its results. Sometimes criminals intend to engage in one kind of act (or crime) and, in the course of doing so, engage and find themselves tried with something else (a different crime)--that's their own "bad luck." If he really did not intend a "terroristic" act, it doesn't really matter (anymore); because, as a consequence of his own actions, he engaged in federal crimes that the federal government (its laws) legally considers "terrorism," he got caught doing that, he got indicted for those federal crimes, he got convicted for those federal crimes, and he was executed for those federal crimes, according to federal law in a federal court. No matter what he may or may not have "intended" and no matter what his "motives" may or may not have been, that is the outcome of his trial. He was tried and convicted of "intentionally" committing crimes which the FBI then and now defines as acts of domestic terrorism.
In other words, the consequences of his actions were not an "accident"; they were planned in a pre-mediated way ("pre-mediated" acts of murder and harm), and, indeed, he succeeded in what he intended (tried) to do. He did not claim that the results of the Oklahoma City bombing were an "accident." He did not accidentally drive a truck loaded with explosive fuel oil into a federal building; he planned the incident, hand-picked the particular federal building, drove the truck himself, and left the truck where it could cause optimal damage, fleeing the scene, then getting apprehended (getting caught was really the only unplanned event, or accident; he should have checked his tail-lights, and was careless in his choice of getaway vehicle!). That is what the government proved in its case against him.
Re: his so-called actual political "motives" or "intentions": whatever they were, no one can really know for sure. The definition of those motives comes largely from what he himself said, wrote, and told others--a kind of hearsay; he didn't testify in his trial and was not required to do so, in fact, was protected against doing so. Motives are useful in establishing "reasonable doubt" after someone is convicted of crimes during his or her trial. The prosecution convicted McVeigh "beyond a reasonable doubt," convincing a jury that he intended to commit murder and harm against human bodies and federal property. Why he intended to do so (his "motives"--hate, personal animus against the government's prior actions, etc.) are really not relevant. The prosecution convinced a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that he did what he was indicted for doing.
In terms of intention, no one who uses that amount of explosives against a building which housed federal offices and people (including children) in those offices (and day care center) who was not insane (and he did not use an insanity defense) would expect anything other than what resulted: death, destruction of human life and property, and general mayhem. It is patently absurd for anyone (in their right mind) to argue that he did not intend for people to die or that the acts of murder and harm to human bodies and federal property that occurred were not "pre-meditated" based on the evidence at trial (which prevailed with the jury) and the verdict, which was upheld. He allowed himself to be defended; the defense lost the case. If it had gone the other way, he would not be called a "domestic terrorist." Given a presumption of innocence throughout the case, the federal government proved to a jury of his peers that he guilty of the crimes with which he was charged "beyond a reasonable doubt," and the federal government prevailed in its case against him. It is the federal government (the FBI) that designates him a "domestic terrorist" via its own definitions of terrorism and domestic terrorism, not Wikipedia users. Wikipedia editors are supposed to cite reliable sources, not make up what they wish. If controversies exist about uses of terminology pertaining to describing Timothy McVeigh in an article about who he was and what he did during his lifetime, then editors can cite reliable sources summarizing what the controversies are. But that does not change the FBI and other federal designations of the acts that McVeigh was convicted of committing and executed for committing as a "domestic" kind of "terrorism." The terms may be debated, but they are still terms in current usage (specialized usages of terms) used to describe him and what he did.
In summary: Timothy McVeigh is (generally) viewed as a "domestic terrorist" (or an "indigenous terrorist") who committed an act of "terrorism" in and against the United States of America. (His motives--whatever reasons he had or may have had, including those which he himself defined prior to, during, and after his trial and his conviction and post-conviction; in retrospect, reasons for his crimes speculated about by others after his execution in punishment for the crimes of which he was convicted; his "initial" motives--stated and re-stated by him, speculated about by others--his motives and such interpretations of his motives or his "alleged" motives are not really as important as the nature of the crimes that he engaged in and their consequences, in terms of case law and the crime that he was committed of.
When he was charged with his (at the time) alleged crimes and then indicted for having committed such (at the time) alleged crimes as charged, those charges were multiple, and they involved acts of violence including murder; at the time, he was not charged with being a "terrorist" per se (the indictment, obviously, was prior to 9/11 changes in the law and the Patriot Act). But the actual terms of an indictment at the time does not mean that he was not also a "terrorist" or "domestic terrorist" as well as a "murderer" etc.
The fact that various people (of various backgrounds and reliability as "sources") question (or doubt) whether or not he was a "terrorist" or a "domestic terrorist" may be noteworthy (or not); but the mere fact of the questioning or the doubting of the applicability of the labels does not render those (descriptive) labels by government and legal outcomes any less reliable in sources that can be used on Wikipedia. The terms have specific definitions in specific contexts; personal connotations for the words are not relevant. The terms have legal definitions specified by government criminal investigative agencies (e.g., the FBI). McVeigh was charged with federal crimes, federal jurisdiction applies, and federal legal criminal definitions apply.
Because Timothy McVeigh is dead, W:Blp does not apply; but W:Accuracy and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and WP:Reliable sources still do.
One can define controversies (citing reliable sources), but that does not change factual designations of the man or his crimes in legal decisions (court records),
legislation (See the Congressional Record), or general public opinion (general consensus).
Unidentified and unpublished and non-peer-reviewed people's opinions posted in this talk page do not constitute such citable sources. See also Domestic terrorism in the United States and Definitions of terrorism#United States, and various sections of related articles on definitions of terrorism, citing the US FBI definition of terrorism and domestic terrorism. Whether or not one agrees with the FBI's definition or the current US government's definitions of terrorism and/or domestic terrorism seems a moot point to me in relation to the convicted and executed (and thus dead) Timothy McVeigh, still widely cited in reliable sources (not unreliable sources) as a "terrorist" and a "domestic terrorist"; those are the current definitions, even if they are controversial retrospectively (espec. post-9/11). Until most reliable sources convincingly argue that McVeigh was not a "terrorist" or a "domestic terrorist" that is what he was and remains (in a Wikipedia article defining who and what he was). --NYScholar 02:45, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
This needs to get added to the web page: http://www.jaynadavis.com/story090502-wsj1.html
There is a theory that John Doe #2 was an arab with connections to Iraq and Al Qaeda. This is definitely a conspiracy theory, but it has gotten widespread media coverage and ought to be mentioned.
thats likly propagandist hogwash, drummed up by government people on order to cash in on the fear . i know i sound odd for saying that in that way, but thats a distinct possiblllity, and if it is true then al queda shouldnt be mentioned here.
btw, sign your posts. Gabrielsimon 07:30, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
[Update: Unprotected; see "Terrorism" sec. above.] --NYScholar 02:07, 7 August 2006 (UTC)]
I just stopped by, and have no intention of getting involved in an edit war. My comments as an outsider: It seems this page is protected but there's no discussion going on. It's not even immediately clear what the dispute is. (I haven't waded through the history.) Perhaps protection should be lifted. JamesMLane 02:39, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
dont wnat to call hoim a terrorist because hes an american huh? well the FBI called him one, so change it back.
Gabrielsimon 06:33, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
As noted previously on this page, this article seems to be missing basic information. McVeigh was associated in the press and by the FBI with the militia movement and was reading the Turner Diaries. These seem like significant and well-known issues. Is there a reason these are not included? - Willmcw 17:55, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
A more NPOV image should be used as the introduction, police mugshots belong further down in an article :) Sherurcij ( talk) ( bounties) 03:49, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
I think that it's important to include, next to the line about him being a domestic terrorist, that some people consider him to be a Jeffersonian patriot. He was arrested whilst wearing a T-shirt with a Jeffersonian quote emblazoned on it and some still maintain that he was a classic American patriot rising up against the "evil" federal government; he fervently believed in the Constitution, the Eighth Amendment, states' rights and the importance of the military, for example. This reference would ensure a fair, balanced POV. Evidence of this viewpoint is present in the impartial book American Terrorist by Lou Michel and Dan Herbeck. Richardbooth 15:40, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I am uncomfortable with the categorisation of McVeigh as a libertarian. No libertarian commentator that I know of has ever praised McVeigh's terrorist actions (though if anyone knows otherwise I'd genuinely be interested to know about it). But more than that, one of the central tenets of libertarianism is that the deliberate initiation of force against innocent people is unacceptable. So, despite the fact that McVeigh thought of himself as a libertarian, his actions indicate otherwise. Any thoughts? -- Matthew Humphreys 22:30, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
A man is not a libertarian based on the vote of others, he is one based on his ascribed beliefs. As it is documented by Timothy McVeigh himself, that he ascribed to the libertarian beliefs, he was one, however much other libertarians disliked his beliefs/actions on other topics. There is no citation to dispute that Timothy McVeigh was a libertarian as he claimed to be, so I have re-added the category. It is as verified as the fact that he was a Roman Catholic. pat8722 02:36, 14 March 2006 (UTC) I will further add that it is a central tenet to all civilized human beings that the deliberate initiation of force against innocent people is unacceptable, and therefore it is not a defining "central tenet" of libertarism, i.e. not what defines it. And, remember, McVeigh didn't consider himself as initiating force against innocent people, he was targeting those he considered enemies in a war against the American people (FBI, BATF), considering the innocent who were killed/harmed as "collateral damage". pat8722 03:02, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Just because a man may have made a mistake about what constitutes a war, does not mean he is not a libertarian. Timothy McVeigh ascribed to the libertarian doctrine wholesale. Those doctrines played a major role in his actions against the FBI and BATF. Libertarism does not prohibit participation in war activities, which Timothy McVeigh had concluded was the case with the FBI and BATF. pat8722 14:29, 14 March 2006 (UTC) I will further add that "collateral damage" is an accepted part of war. Because of the deliberate decision of the U.S. Government to intentionally design government buildings to use babies as human shields, McVeigh had no choice but to accept their deaths, if he was to accomplish his act of war against the headquarters of those who had planned and executed the atrocities at Waco. pat8722 14:41, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Timothy McVeigh would also have argued that mass murder is not a legitimate action, consistent with what you claim is a "tenet" of libertarianism (which it is not, as it does not properly not "define" libertarianism, as it applies to ALL civilized people). Defense of that position is why he did what he did. He considered Waco a mass-murder sitation, in essence a declaration of war on the American people by the American government, and he responded with an act of war directed specifically at the headquarters responsible for Waco, in which some innocents where necessarily also killed as unavoidable collateral damage. Acts of war are not correctly termed "mass murder", they are called "acts of war", which is what it was to Timothy McVeigh. You have identified no doctrine of McVeigh that would not be consistent with libertarianism.
pat8722 22:49, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
The wikipedia article no where establishes that McVeigh was in league with, or sympathetic with, white nationalism, and there is no reason to believe that he was. The Non-aggression principle article you cite states specifically "the principle does not preclude retaliation against aggression". There is everywhere reason to believe McVeigh considered his attack on the FBI and BATF at the Murrah Federal Building to be an act of war in response to Waco. And no psychiatrist would agree with you that he would have to be insane to hold such a belief. You are so outraged by what he did that you want no connection to him whatsoever, and you feel his inclusion as a libertarian gives you such a connection. But he held to the same fundamental beliefs you do regarding libertarian principles, he just came to a different conclusion as to what Waco meant, and responded thereupon consistently with libertarian principles based on that conclusion. An act of war is not murder, and that's how he viewed it. pat8722 03:50, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I have removed some of the unsubstantiated pov about the MidWest Bank Robbers from the article. It has never been established that McVeigh was affiliated with them in any way. I have read the letter to the editor at [5] regarding the Libertarian Party press release published shortly after McVeigh claimed to be a libertarian, which is really irrelevant, as McVeigh claimed to be a "libertarian" not a "Libertarian". But, we could also check out the pledge required by the relatively small "Libertarian Party", said to be a pledge against the initiation of force. Probably the actions of McVeigh would have been consistent even within the terms of the pledge of that small subset of the "libertarian movement", as it was McVeigh's position that he did not "initiate" force, but that he was responding to force which had been initiated at Waco. So, thus far, not only was McVeigh consistent within the doctrine of "libertarianism", it also appears he was consistent within the doctrine of "Libertarianism", too. That Steve Dasbach, Libertarian Party national director, considered McVeigh a murderer, is irrelevant. pat8722 15:43, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
pat8722, you say that "Timothy McVeigh ascribed to the libertarian doctrine wholesale." Can you explain this and cite sources? I am not saying you're wrong, but I would like to see some sources. Was he in favor of drug legalization, for example (one of the signature issues for libertarians)? Mirror Vax 22:19, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Mirror Vax, It's really moot to the argument, as evidence would have to be presented that he was NOT a libertarian, given his statement that he was. The burden remains on the opposing side to prove he was lying. But I made the statement based on the fact that everything I've read about him, and seen about him (he sat in front of me at a "guns/libertarian/God" type rally, a little over a year before the bombing) bespeaks that he was a MOST committed libertarian - his committment to the civil liberties of the people at Waco, his views on the availablity of guns and explosives, the procedural nature of his appeals, his insistance that he had a right to have his death broadcast, the type of people he associated with (none of whom were known to be white supremecists or Islamists or any other freakish group), his willingness to sacrifice his life for others, and even the t-shirt he was wearing when he was captured. There's nothing in what we know about him to suggest that he was anything other than what he said he was. And only a libertarian could have done what he did in attacking the Murrah Federal Building. pat8722 00:29, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
No, "conservatism" has changed its meaning over time. It used to tend more towards libertarianism than it now does. What is termed "conservatism" these days sometimes recommends violating even the most fundamental constitutional rights, which would have been abhorrent to the largely libertarian "conservatives" of old, and aborrent to McVeigh (the Patriot Act, etc). (The Libertarian Party was well-represented at the rally - a Party speaker, literature, stumping...) Being willing to sacrifice yourself for others is a trait commonly found among libertarians, even though it is not a "defining" characteristic. Being willing to blow up buildings in defense of libertarianism is not at all at odds with being a libertarian when it's "war", which McVeigh believed it was. As you keep bringing up the drug issue, I will add that it would be possible to be a libertarian and agree that an exeption to the rule should exist regarding certain issues. As long as the libertarian philosopy is the overriding philosophy, conclusions as to particular exceptions, such as regarding drugs, are permitted, though most modern libertarians would agree that recreational drugs should not be illegal. The failure to form an opinion on certain topics is permitted, too. pat8722 02:52, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I guess it depends on the libertarian crowd you hang out with. Self-sacrifice is a trait characteristic of many libertarians. But I was careful to note that it is NOT a defining characteristic, i.e. not a doctrinal matter. So take it easy. pat8722 04:05, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
The point of dispute seems to rest on whether one's conclusions about whether Waco was an act of war, and whether the bombing of the federal building was a legitimate war act in response to it, can be used as a "litmus test" to "define" whether one is a libertarian or not. To suggest so is absurd. The definition of libertarian is "one who advocates the right of individuals to be free to do whatever they wish with their persons or property as long it allows others the same liberty." As long as a man ascribes to that fundamental belief, he is libertarian, no matter whether those beliefs lead him to believe that there is a war going on against those beliefs, and that he must fight in it, or not. History is just as likely to vindicate McVeigh as present society has condemned him, but none of that will change whether he was a libertarian in his beliefs. He says he was libertarian in his beliefs, there is every reason to believe he knew the definition when he spoke, and nothing in his actions indicate he was a mental incompetent or that he acted based on anything other than those beliefs, however wrong his conclusions about what Waco meant may have been. And there are, of course, a significant number of libertarians who agree with McVeigh. Would you want to exclude them from the definition of "libertarian", as well? pat8722 17:14, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Most people, when they say "libertarian", mean "Libertarian", and visa versa; the same is true for the use of "democrat vs Democrat". A distinction would need to be identified by the speaker, to make one. So the point is moot. pat8722 16:24, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
You state "Most people don't know there's any reason for a distinction between big-L and small-l" -that's exactly why it's moot. It only becomes an issue when the speaker makes it one, otherwise the usages are interchangeable. It's perfectly ok with me either way it appears in this article.
pat8722 22:59, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
On second thought, you've got a point. I have reverted back to little "l". In the presence of any confusion, we should use the variation McVeigh used. And I notice the article explicity states "self-described", so that really mandates it. pat8722 03:50, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Criteria for inclusion as libertarian: "people who subscribe to the political philosophy of libertarianism as the word is used in the United States." In other words, they must "subscribe" to a "Political" philosophy (not a general philosophy) of libertarianism.
Evidence regarding McVeigh: In one letter (which significantly is not about libertarianism but something else), McVeigh describes himself as libertarian in a parenthetical comment. He did not clarify whether this was a political philosophy or a personal philosophy or some other kind of philosophy.
What is a "political philosophy"?: "Political philosophy is the study of the fundamental questions about the state, government, politics, property, law and the enforcement of a legal code by authority: what they are, why they are needed, what makes a government legitimate, what rights and freedoms it should protect and why, what form it should take and why, what the law is, and what duties citizens owe to a legitimate government, if any, and when it may be legitimately overthrown - if ever." (wikipedia) In other words, political philosophy deals with forms, methods and ideals of governance, not personal behavior.
McVeigh's parenthetical comment makes it clear that he ascribed to a sort of personal libertarianism, but this is not the same as the political philosophy of libertarianism. His political views were certainly anti-American and may have been somewhat anarchist. Anarchy may be strongly related to personal libertarianism but less so to political libertarianism. (Note that I do not connect political libertarianism with the Libertarian Party in this discussion - they may not be the same thing in every case so I have avoided that.)
It is pretty clear that McVeigh at least claimed to be a libertarian (it is harder to detect whether he really ascribed to that philosophy), but the bulk of the evidence is that he did NOT subscribe the political philosophy of libertarianism as is the criteria for that category. Furthermore, a single parenthetical reference in a letter written on a separate subject is not really "proof" that he subscribed to ANY philosophy of libertarianism. He may have been parroting someone he admired, when he really ascribed to some other philosophy. At best, the only thing that can be said is that he claimed to be a libertarian in one instance. I do not think that such a flimsy thing is encyclopedic. -- Blue Tie 22:07, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
We don't accept the claim that one is a rightful king as sufficient grounds to place one into the category of those who are rightful kings. If there is use for a [[Category:Self-Professed Messiahs]], then by all means let's load it up. And, likewise, if there use for a [[Category:Self-Professed Libertarians]] then let's fill that up as well. But let's not confuse the former with [[Category:Messiahs]], nor the latter with [[Category:Libertarians]]. — 12.72.69.54 00:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I changed
to
The original sounded a little populist to me (like some background news story trying to emphasise the horribleness of the crime for cheap dramatic effect). I changed it to the more neutral version. Since this is probably a controversial article, I figured I should mention it on the talk page. I realize that the fact that men, women and children died during the bombings is information that is now removed, but it's not something that belongs in the opening paragraph. If it's important it should be mentioned further down in the article (or rather, in the article for the bombings themselves) with proper citation and maybe some numbers while we're at it. risk 22:01, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Does only the FBI consider him a domestic terriorist? Does, for example, the Judical branch of government having convincted hm disagree? I don't think we have any POV problems simply calling him a domestic terriorist, that woudl be better that the weaseling about in the first sentence right now. At the minimum he was a convicted terriorist. Dalf | Talk 16:52, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the part considered by the FBI. -- 172.178.6.140 20:31, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
This article claims that the entirety of the next morning's witnesses was listening to the prequiem performed at the virgil service for McVeigh. That would include the journalists and the 10 survivors or victims relatives. Most survivors or relatives were pissed about Woodward because he praised the mass murderer as a comedian. So I really doubt that the survivors or relatives would go to church to hear the prequiem or to pray for the murderer.
I'd like to see some sources for that statement, so far I have only found it on the homepage of Woodward.
-- 172.177.247.183 19:43, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
This article claims: there is no evidence that McVeigh knew about it or purposely targeted children
On this CNN page FBI special agent Danny Defenbaugh states:
No matter what ... if you look at the building, you're going to see all the little cutout hands, all the little apples and flowers showing that there's a kindergarten there -- that there are children in that building .
So anyone knows it better?
-- 172.177.247.183 19:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
This article needs sourcing throughout; see the tag. I've introduced the "Notes" section. The article is plagiarized from mainly two sources. It needs citations throughout. I leave it up to the editor who first took the material from the two sources (if still here) to provide these citations in an adequate manner to document the many statements taken from these sources. The sources were not accurately identified; see the current Notes section. Most of the external links were misidentified or poorly described; see those changes as well (made earlier). This article still needs a lot of work and introduction of W:Citation and WP:Reliable sources. --NYScholar 06:45, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
[altered the heading somewhat so that people can post comments about the first paragraph as a subject that deal with other matters too. --NYScholar 02:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC)]
I first thought your edits were pretty good, but I have changed my mind. It is really too awkward for an initial opening paragraph. I think it contains too much detail for an opening paragraph and it runs on too long. I ran it through MS Word and MS Word just threw up all over it. I think the list of specific convictions should be put in the body, not in the opening paragraph. Here is what I think is a better paragraph:
Timothy James McVeigh (April 23, 1968 – June 11, 2001) was an American executed for bombing the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995. 167 people died and hundreds more were injured when McVeigh detonated a truck loaded with improvised explosives just two minutes after federal offices opened for the day. A 168th victim, a rescue worker, died after the initial blast, when a large piece of concrete crushed him.
According to MS Word this has a readability of 41 and a grade level of 13. This is contrasted to the current version with a readability of 27 and a grade level of 18. (Scores for both were calculated without dates in the paragraph) In addition, though I edited it without any POV (just seeking to simplify) it seems more like a cool neutral paragraph that would be found to summarize an encyclopedic article. The only label is the "American" which is good per wikipedia guidelines. Word suggests that I should not have removed the phrase "his role in the", but to me it reads better this way.
The deletions from the paragraph would suggest that the following should be added to the body of the document if they are not already there:
What do you you think? -- Blue Tie 04:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your efforts; unfortunately, however, there are problems with the changes that you have already made. While the sentence that you changed in the opening paragraph was a long sentence, it was not a "run-on sentence," as you state. You removed one phrase and placed it in an additional sentence. That's okay, but the paragraph reads in a choppy manner now; if I have time, I may work on that problem later.
The paragraph that you suggest restores material objected to in previous comments made on this talk page by other editors. (Please read the earlier parts of this talk page.) People have already observed that he was convicted of and then executed for specific crimes in the indictment deriving from the Oklahoma City bombing (see the link to it in external links). One needs to be precise in order to avoid the kinds of lack of W:Neutral point of view discussed by a lot of people earlier. The sentences can be more concise, but the material in them is accurate. I may restore them to an earlier version that did not incorporate the details. The details (specific charges) are in the body of the article already.
I have removed a paragraph that you [(user Blue Tie)] changed, without giving any source at all, making claims that you cannot support [without providing sources]. The changes that you (or others) made [to what was there earlier] completely alter the claims and make them even more specific and certain than they were before, but you do that without a reference to any source that anyone can verify. Not only is no "reliable source" there, but no source at all is there. [I added a few phrases in brackets for greater clarity, I hope. --NYScholar 05:31, 9 August 2006 (UTC)]
<<
In prison interviews, McVeigh denied that he knew about the day care center, that it was not visible from the street, that had he known he would have chosen another target. Nevertheless, he also stated that he felt no remorse for those deaths and described them as necessary collateral damage. citation needed
>>
Without actual sources of the so-called "prison interviews" one cannot state that "McVeigh denied" x, y, z, or what he "also stated." You give no verifiable source(s) to substantiate any of that paragraph. Where are transcripts of the "interviews" (not hearsay about them)? Where is a published account of the "interviews?" As this paragraph stands, the material does not meet WP:Cite, W:Reliable sources requirements.
[I've added this section because it discusses another paragraph in the article (not the first paragraph). --NYScholar 05:22, 9 August 2006 (UTC)]
Citations to multiple (not just one or two) reliable sources still needed in this article. --NYScholar 01:54, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I just don't have the time to fix all the problems in this article and/or to provide all the missing sources for the plagiarized sections of it. It still needs sourcing (See all my comments about this problem above.) --NYScholar 05:31, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The places where I've already supplied citations in notes are just examples of how to do that and of what other editors still need to do to correct remaining problems of lack of sourcing and plagiarism in this article. I do not have time to do all that work myself. --NYScholar 06:47, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Here's the longer passage from Walsh from which I quote a portion in a note that I added as a citation:
McVeigh's cold-blooded act horrified millions in the US and around the world. But a recently published book, American Terrorist: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing by two Buffalo News reporters, Lou Michel and Dan Herbeck, reports that McVeigh has no regrets about his act. He openly acknowledged having set off the bomb to the authors and claims sole responsibility for the mass killing. During an appearance on ABC News's “Prime Time Thursday” March 29, Herbeck commented, “He [McVeigh] never expressed one ounce of remorse for the Oklahoma City bombing.” Michel described McVeigh's reaction to the explosion's aftermath: “Damn, I didn't knock the building down. I didn't take it down.”
According to Michel and Herbeck, McVeigh claimed not to have known that a day-care center was located in the Murrah Building, and that if he had known it, in his own words, “it might have given me pause to switch targets. That's a large amount of collateral damage.”
Michel and Herbeck quote McVeigh, with whom they spoke for some 75 hours, on his attitude to the victims: “To these people in Oklahoma who have lost a loved one, I'm sorry but it happens every day. You're not the first mother to lose a kid, or the first grandparent to lose a grandson or a granddaughter. It happens every day, somewhere in the world. I'm not going to go into that courtroom, curl into a fetal ball, and cry just because the victims want me to do that.”
McVeigh's lack of remorse for the deaths of 19 children, as well as secretaries, clerks, administrators and others employed by the federal government, and the dozens of people who were merely visiting the building, should serve as a warning about the character of elements promoted by the ultra-right in the US. They are brutal, cowardly and ruthless.
While American Terrorist contains some valuable material, it provides little insight into the social source of McVeigh's act. Indeed Michel and Herbeck end their work on the following note: “The same imponderable question haunts those who lost sons, daughters, spouses, friends, and other loved ones when America's long-simmering tensions over gun rights and big government exploded in Oklahoma City. Why?” This amounts to an admission of failure on the part of authors who, by all rights, should have dedicated their 388-page book to answering that very question.
Walsh goes on to add his own interpretation (from a socialist socio-economic pov) of why McVeigh bombed the Murrah Building. It would be interesting to compare this pov with other interpretations from other perspectives and to cite such sources too, if the article is to raise issues of McVeigh's purported motivations (those which McVeigh himself claims to have acted from, in interviews; those which others speculate about in court testimony, articles, and books, e.g.). One cannot simply cite interviews with McVeigh as "evidence" of why he did what he did; those interviews have contexts, such as the court case going on at the time; McVeigh's motives in giving the interviews; McVeigh's relative truth or falsity; the circumstances of the interviews and the interviewers; the motives of the interviewers and the venues in which they were broadcast or published; and so on). The goal of the article should be to achieve W:Neutral point of view.
People who wrote earlier versions of this article relied heavily on Michel and Herbeck and only one or two other sources (without citing the sources after the points taken from any of those sources). The whole article needs clean up still. --NYScholar 07:00, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
See the article for this other example which needs sourcing: what I supplied comes from the following passage in Hoffman's online chapter "'The Face of Terror'":
In April of 1991, McVeigh put his heart and soul into his long-awaited dream of becoming a Green Beret. On March 28 he reported to Camp McCall, the Special Forces Assessment and Selection (SFAS) training facility west of Fort Bragg, for the grueling 21-day assessment course. But McVeigh, who had kept himself in top shape by doing 400 push-ups a day and marching around the post with a 100 pound pack was now out of shape and he knew it. The Bradley gunner who had served in the Persian Gulf for four months was also drained from the stress of combat.
As the recruits stood at attention, the instructor asked several of the recently returned war veterans if they wanted to return to their unit to get back in shape. One of the soldiers yelled that they were ready, so out of a sense of gung-ho pride, nobody backed out.
The first day of testing was devoted to psychological screening. McVeigh claims he had no problem with the psychological tests, which included the Adult Personality Inventory, the Minnesota Multiple Phase Personality Test, and a sentence completion exam designed by Army psychologists.
The second day of tests began with an obstacle course which McVeigh passed with ease. After lunch, the recruits were led on a high-speed march with 50 pound rucksacks. Yet new boots tore into McVeigh's feet during the five mile march, and with the worst yet to come, he and another recruit, David Whitmyer, decided to drop out. McVeigh signed a Voluntary/Involuntary Withdrawal from the SFAS school. His single sentence explanation read: "I am not physically ready, and the rucksack march hurt more than it should."[172]
The mainstream press jumped on his initial failure to make the Special Forces. He was "unable to face the failure" stated the New York Times. "He washed out on the second day."[173]
"There were no second chances," claimed the Washington Post. "His spirit was broken."[174]
These reports suggested that McVeigh had failed the psychological screening tests. "Military officials said that preliminary psychological screening had shown him to be unfit," lauded the ever-wise voice of the New York Times. "[He] saw his cherished hope of becoming a Green Beret shattered by psychological tests."[175] "It was apparently a blow so crushing that he quit the Army and went into a psychic tailspin."[176]
Media pundits quickly backed up their armchair analyses' with statements from several of McVeigh's former buddies.
"Anyone who puts all that effort into something and doesn't get it would be mentally crushed," said Roger Barnett, the driver of McVeigh's Bradley. "He wasn't the same McVeigh. He didn't go at things the way he normally did…. He didn't have the same drive. He didn't have his heart in the military anymore."[177]
"He always wanted to do better than everyone," said Captain Terry Guild, "and that (Green Berets) was his way of trying to do it. He took a lot of flak. He was really down on himself."[178]
McVeigh claimed "That's a bunch of bunk," in response to the allegations. "Any realist knows that if you develop blisters on the second day… you're not going to make it."[179] [Still, the self-styled psychoanalysts of the mainstream press made much of his disappointment, asserting knowingly that it was the crux of McVeigh's "burgeoning torment."]
[Apparently, the "psychojournalists" at the Times had never bothered to check with officials at the SFAS school. "McVeigh dropped out of the course on the second day," said Colonel Ken McGraw, Information Officer at the Special Operations Command at Fort Bragg. "His psychological test work would not have even been graded yet."]
According to McVeigh's attorney Stephen Jones, his Army records indicate that his SFAS psychological tests weren't graded until April of 1995. The "military official" who leaked the story about McVeigh's "psychological test failure" turned out to be none other than FBI Agent John R. Hersley, who testified to this repeatedly during the Federal Grand Jury hearings. Apparently, Hersley never told the grand jurors that he was moonlighting as an Army psychologist.
Although McVeigh may have been genuinely disappointed by his initial failure, he added that the school's commander had invited the decorated war veteran to try out again whenever he felt he was ready. It seems McVeigh was not too disappointed to score a perfect 1,000 points during a Bradley gunner competition six months later at Fort Riley, earning him another Army commendation and the honor of the division's "Top Gun," a rare achievement. An Army evaluation also rated him "among the best" in leadership potential and an "inspiration to young soldiers."[180]
Yet in spite of McVeigh's achievements, "a bit of doubt started to surface" in his mind about a potential for a career in the military.[181] Although a friend said "I swear to God he could have been Sergeant Major of the Army — he was that good of a soldier," McVeigh apparently was having second thoughts. Most of these, his Army buddies said, stemmed from the military's downsizing then in progress. He also confided to his friend Dave Dilly that without being a Green Beret, the Army wouldn't be worth the effort. "I think he felt he got a raw deal, and wanted out," said Littleton.
Given McVeigh's achievements — his quick rise to sergeant, his medals of commendation, the distinction of being "Top Gun," and the extremely high praise of his superiors, one has to wonder what his real motives were. It seems highly unlikely that given the massive effort he put into his military career, he would take an early out on such presumptive pretenses. McVeigh was a spit and polish soldier with a top notch record. He was totally devoted to the military. He had served in combat, earning several medals. If anything he was due for his next promotion. The commander of the Special Forces school had even invited him to try out again in a few months. As Sheffield Anderson said, "He seemed destined for a brilliant career in the military."
These observations were backed up by McVeigh's sister Jennifer. "I thought it was going to be his career. He was definitely a career military type. That was his life, you know. His life revolved around that."
It hardly seems likely that the ambitious soldier who had recently signed on for another four year hitch would opt out so easily. Yet, on December 31, 1991, Sergeant McVeigh took an early discharge from the Army, and went back to his home town of Pendleton, NY.
[Numbers in brackets refer to notes provided by Hoffman.]
If one reads the whole passage as quoted above, one can see that taking little bits out of context is highly problematic and also that the above passage is the interpretation of its author David Hoffman and that interpretation needs to be checked against a variety of other sources too, since Hoffman appears rather sympathetic to McVeigh and is attempting to "set the record straight" from Hoffman's own particular point of view on the subject. With such highly- controversial subjects, one really does need to make an extra effort to avoid repeating biases and to make clear what they are when one encounters them in sources used. --NYScholar 08:05, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I mentioned in an editing summary that three years are omitted from this article's account of McVeigh's biography. Hoffman fills in that gap, but that single source needs to be checked against other published biographical sources too. Hoffman presents his own theories about various aspects of McVeigh's personality and behavior, in one place suggesting that he may have been trained as part of psychological experiments in the manner of The Manchurian Candidate (novel, movie). Some of that seems quite far-fetched to me and highly speculative on Hoffman's part. --NYScholar 08:46, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The intro is edited to exclude this utterly inaccurate piece. McVeigh did not protest the Iraq War, beginning 1991. His entire Gulf War participation and post-Gulf Green Beret pursuits explicitly cut against and undermine any such bias. The reference provided only dates from 1998 and does not answer the latter observations. AOluwatoyin 20:31, 16 August 2006 (UTC)AOluwatoyin
I made some structural changes. Except as noted in the edit summaries, I tried VERY HARD not to remove or change any thoughts or ideas. I just made the structure a more in keeping with wikipedia policies and I removed some redundancies. I promise there was no attempt at any other agenda.
There are some things that still need work:
Thats all I can see for now
Someone should include something about PETA's letter to McVeigh, requesting that his last meal be a vegetarian one; it's pretty interesting. -- MosheA 01:54, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
The motivations section contains the sentence: "McVeigh confirmed his anti-American views in a commentary on the second Iraq War (1991–2003)" . How can a man who died in 2001 have a commentary on a war that started in 2003? This sentence should be clarified, but I'm not entire sure what it means. Was he talking about a hypothetical future Iraq war? About hte weapons inspections issues that happened in the 90s? Something else? -- Alecmconroy 04:25, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
He referred to Desert Storm. The First Gulf War was the 1980-88 Iraq-Iran war. The second is Desert Storm, the third is Operation Iraqi Freedom since 2003.
This section is completely unreferenced and uses weasel words instead of name attributions. Unless someone sources this it should probably be deleted per WP:V and WP:RS. Durova 23:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
In the section Motivations for the bombing, McVeigh supposedly gives comments on the "second" Iraq war. Is the writer implying the 1991 Gulf War (of which McVeigh is a veteran) is the "first" Iraq war? Then is the 2002 war in Iraq the "second"? McVeigh did not live to see the "second" war (executed three months prior to 9/11). Polihale 00:57, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
He referred to Desert Storm. The First Gulf War was the 1980-88 Iraq-Iran war. The second is Desert Storm, the third is Operation Iraqi Freedom since 2003.
The anon is citing the American Heritage Dictionary. Here's what they say, in full: The verb graduate has denoted the action of conferring an academic degree or diploma since at least 1421. Accordingly, the action of receiving a degree should be expressed in the passive, as in She was graduated from Yale in 1998. This use is still current, if old-fashioned, and is acceptable to 78 percent of the Usage Panel. In general usage, however, it has largely yielded to the much more recent active pattern (first attested in 1807): She graduated from Yale in 1998. Eighty-nine percent of the Panel accepts this use. It has the advantage of ascribing the accomplishment to the student, rather than to the institution, which is usually appropriate in discussions of individual students. When the institution's responsibility is emphasized, however, the older pattern may still be recommended. A sentence such as The university graduated more computer science majors in 1997 than in the entire previous decade stresses the university's accomplishment, say, of its computer science program. On the other hand, the sentence More computer science majors graduated in 1997 than in the entire previous decade implies that the class of 1997 was in some way a remarkable group. •The Usage Panel feels quite differently about the use of graduate to mean “to receive a degree from,” as in She graduated Yale in 1998. Seventy-seven percent object to this usage. [6] In other words, "graduated" is more appropriate usage nowadays. -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 02:51, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
(unindent) There are some factual errors in your statement. They are:
But excluding these issues, you made a good point. Unfortunately it is all overcome by a superior edit that is now in the article. -- Blue Tie 06:19, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
While many many many people (including me) consider McVeigh a terrorist, the word terrorist is loaded and subjective. We should definitely say that he is widely considered a terrorist, or that the FBI said he was a terrorist, I don't think we should define him as a terrorist in the very first sentence (this is being rehashed on the talk page to avoid WP:3RR). -- Daniel Olsen 06:07, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I noticed from the discussion that Timothy McVeigh was a self-described libertarian. Would it be fair to say that he was a member of an extreme right anti-government group, the Patriot Movement? Because that's exactly what the French Wikipedia says: Il était membre d'un groupe d'extrême droite anti-gouvernemental, le Patriot Movement. Your opinions would be appreciated. 64.154.26.251 06:33, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
He may not have been a libertarian. His discription is not precise. However, I think I recall somewhere that he was connected with the Patriot Movement. However, unless it is from a reliable and verifiable source, it probably should not be added at this point unless you have really good reason to believe it is so and citations would come later. -- Blue Tie 13:48, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
removed the government persecution theory section. loaded with weasel words, no citations, references to an fbi 'crackdown on the far right' with no evidence of such a crackdown... frymaster 18:09, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
This text keeps appearing in the lead section. It's inappropriate there — if it belongs in the article at all, it should be in the Conspiracy theories section. Personally, I don't think it belongs anywhere. I think it's link spam, or maybe we need a new category of conspiracy spam. Anyhow, infowars is not a credible source, and the video is nonsense (yes I actually viewed it, please don't repeat my mistake – the soldier's face appears for about two frames, and he doesn't resemble McVeigh at all).
My instinct is to just keep reverting this as vandalism, but some people may not consider it blatant enough for that, and I don't want to run afoul of WP:3RR, so I'm following procedure by opening a discussion here on the talk page. Does anyone care to present an argument for keeping these links? Cheers, Eleuther 13:49, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
History of insertion and reversion so far:
The anonymous IPs all resolve to talia.net in Sweden except:
I think it's reasonable to assume they're all the same person, except perhaps the Jena one, which may be a friend who was asked to come in and un-revert some edits (here and to Alex Jones (radio). The person ignores invitations to discuss thing on the talk page. I'm not sure how to proceed from here, suggestions are welcome — Thanks! Eleuther 16:52, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
(Note: I will continue to update the above list without necessarily signing every change. Eleuther 17:52, 25 December 2006 (UTC))
In the section Military career in this Wikipedia article it says that he was discharged on December 31, 1991 - this is correct. I have added in the fact that he joined the Army reserve and was honourable discharged from the army for the final time in May 1992 - this the FBI agrees with - never to be in the Army again.
However, and this is a big however, I have recently found out that their is video footage of him in the Army ( Camp Grafton specifically, in uniform, learning explosives and demolition) as late as August 3 1993! article and www.infowarscom/articles/us/okc_bombing_tim_mcveigh_on_august_3_1993.htm unreliable fringe source? Bill Bean article] FK0071a 13:08, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
This article doesn't mention the only book that McVeigh authorised himself, American Terrorist? I think something needs to be said. Read/listen to the interview with the author on the books pages external links. FK0071a 15:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure why this is the top of the article anyway, but I didn't like the way the section originally started out saying (without cites) that McVeigh was a devoted Roman Catholic, and then said (with cite) that he 'believed in God'. I didn't like this because, in the Time Magazine interview cited, McVeigh specifically disclaims any Catholic faith, saying 'he had lost touch' and 'never really picked up' the religion. Leaving this uncited while mentioning the faith earlier makes it sound like he was still Catholic.
This also explains an implied difference between the Guardian and Time articles... there wasn't any, really.
Dnjscott 22:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
"McVeigh's first trial attorney, Stephen Jones (attorney), also suggested in his book on the case that Terry Nichols had crossed paths with suspected Islamic terrorists during his frequent visits to the Philippines before the attacks. Nichols' father-in-law at the time was a Philippine police officer who owned an apartment building often rented to Arabic-speaking students with alleged terrorist connections." - citations needed, and context must be provided. Exactly what is being alleged here? This information is irrelevant if nothing is being alleged, and if something is being alleged, far more proof and context are needed.
There is little pleasure to be found in refining these details, but there is more to this subject. Other principal actors, especially Terry Nichols, need a place, as does the citizens petition presented by Rep. Charles Key for a grand jury which led to Nichols' indictmentin Oklahoma state court. Back in the OKBomb page, the brig. gens'. detonation analysis was perhaps outdated by revelations that nitromethane was the primary hydrocarbon component of the bomb, rather than far less volatile deisel oil. The "Reichstag fire" theory is popular, but several other theories are worth noting, including those involving and not involving gov complicity . There is evidence the gov knew (check Carol Howe, Andrew Strasmeyer) something was afoot, there is evidence infiltrators of right wing groups might have gone rogue on thier handlers (The Midwest Bank Robbers, Secret Service gained release of robbery suspect from GA jail), and some of the geographic locations involveed (elohim city especially) deserve mention. There are reliable witness accounts reported in several sources (which I verified with the original witnesses and/or investigators) of a group of surly men at the KS lake where the gov says the bomb was assembled, and that there were was another Ryder truck and a stakeside truck involved in transfering or staging the bomb components.
None of the evidence anomylous to the gov case needs outweight the popular theory advanced by McVeigh himself before his death that he acted alone, but it needs room in the account, IMHO. More details of his life, military career and pre-bombing affiliations can all go here, too.
JRT7 08:37, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
it would be usseful for the article to go into some details (or even mention) his relationship with these movements.
The fact that the McVeigh called it a 'manifesto' indicates - nothing. Try reading this: Manifesto. And don't tell us now that the "Fascist Manifesto" indicates alliegance to Marx.
The truth is very easy and obvious: McVeigh's hero was Earl Turner from militia's beloved The Turner Diaries and McVeigh was a right-winger. And like all right-wingers he liked to blame the goverment and the liberals for his own miserable life. And like all right-wingers he enjoyed killing innocent people. And that's that.
-- 172.177.247.183 20:28, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Before his execution, some speculated McVeigh was framed, or that others were involved.
Various analysts have suggested the government had a role in a conspiracy behind the bombing, or even planned the attack, so as to have grounds for persecuting right-wing organizations in a manner similar to Nazi prosecution of legislators after the Reichstag fire.
I think that Wikipedia should be above using such non-specific attributions as "some" or "various analysts". If Wikipedia is going to include conspiracy theories, we need to be a little more specific about the people or groups advancing them. In this case, I suspect that "various analysts" gives more credibility to the claim than would be the case if proper attribution was made.
Couldn't agree more. The site now reads (Apr 7, 06) that it's religious extremist groups (Islamic and Christian) that he's had contact with. What next? He communed with the devil?
What happened to the links? Why have they all turned red? -- Euniana 09:26, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It was the first execution of a convicted criminal by the federal government of the United States since the execution of Victor Feguer in Iowa on March 15, 1963. Uh - really? I could have sworn that there were some other executions between 1963 and 2001. Captainmax 01:02, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
(Protected Page) [Revised: Unprotected])--NYScholar 02:07, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I believe calling McVeigh a terrorist wholesale is incorrect. Terrorist is a highly POV term and that is why even the media refuse to use that word. He was, however, convincted of terrorist charges, which is correctly defined in the article as it is. Please see Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid
If we are to allowed to use such POV terms, then such POV terms can also apply to Sharon and Bush and even Mandela. We can not call Mandela a terrorist wholesale just because he was convincted of terrorist acts by the aparthied government. 66.194.152.87 11:33, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Well, after thinking a bit, I do agree that the word "terrorist" can be a loaded phrase (that's why Reuters banned it -- stupid if you ask me, though the discussion isn't). One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. That isn't to say, though, that it shouldn't be used -- but I think it should be used judiciously. It seems to me that most people would consider McVeigh a terrorist. The FBI certainly did: On August 14, McVeigh was sentenced to death for carrying out the most deadly act of terrorism in U.S. history. ( [2]) I think that's good enough for me. · Katefan0 (scribble) 03:03, May 4, 2005 (UTC)
I thought wikipedia is supposed to describe what people say, write and think, not make value judgements of its own. McVeigh is a hero to many people for blowing up the FBI secret police of an oppressive government that killed children in Waco, Texas. -- Spaz 03:06, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
[Note: Moved the above comments by User Katefan0 to this section from a separate section (RFC, originally below) because it relates to this discussion topically and chronologically). --NYScholar 04:28, 7 August 2006 (UTC)]
I've protected the page, I'm not sure how you're going to settle this, does being convicted as a terrorist, I would lean on the side of yes.-- nixie 11:54, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
I have yet to decide on the issue of using the word 'terrorist' to describe McVeigh, but I would like to hear 66.194.152.87's opinion on why the 9-11 hijackers should not be called terrorists. The [
9-11 Attacks] page describes these attacks as 'terrorist'. Should the article instead read, "The September 11, 2001 attacks were a series of coordinated terrorist airplane attacks..."? --
Monkeyman 15:59, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
McVeigh should not be called a terrorist for these reasons: FBI Definition of Terrorism is: Terrorism is the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.. But, of course, by social objectives they cannot mean simple hatred or revenge. Otherwise the Columbine murderers/misfit teens would be included as terrorists. McVeigh and Nichols were possibly anarchists, or government haters, but they did not imagine that they would be making a change. Instead, this was a violent protest act. McVeigh expressed revenge motives. While terrorists are not immune to revenge motives, this is more typically the motives for ordinary murderers, serial murderers and mass murderers. FBI and others also feel that terrorism is a group activity (and by group they do not mean 2 or 3 people). Finally, he was not charged, indicted, convicted, sentenced or executed for terrorism, but rather, most predomenantly, for murder. Granted that murder is used in terrorism, but terrorism is a separate charge and it was available to law enforcement at the time but was not used.
Not sure why it is popular to call this terrorism or why it is important to some people to call it terrorism, but it really is more of a hate crime perpetuated on a large scale. When someone sits in a tower and shoots people out of pure hatred or walks in a McDonalds and does the same ... again out of pure hatred, it is not terrorism. McVeigh's crime was similar though much larger.
Having said that, the fact that many people view his act as a terrorist act should be included.--- Blue Tie 18:22, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
See note 2 in the article on Oklahoma City bombing. Need WP:Reliable sources for support of "many people" as used above and "some" used in note 2 in that article. Comments here seem involved in making semantic distinctions, not always legal distinctions; as demonstrated above, omitting the adjective domestic in the phrase domestic terrorism alters both the term and the concept to terrorism; there are differences in the semantic and legal meanings of domestic terrorism and terrorism (FBI definition) that need research and reliable sources; see, as note 2 refers to, the article on terrorism for more information and perspectives. See the section Terrorism#Examples of major incidents and List of terrorist incidents cited in it. --NYScholar 02:10, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
See also this July 2005 comment from Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Myers, hosted on the US Government Department of State website in an interview:
QUESTION: It [death toll of Iraqi police and civilians] [is] definitely running higher than it was in 2003 and most part of 2004, if the Iraqi numbers are correct. My question is very clear and simple: Why is the American military not able to quell the insurgents in that country?
GENERAL MYERS: I think my answer will be clear and simple, too. The single greatest indigenous act of terror in the United States that I can recall was the bombing of the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City. How many people were involved? Two people. Killed 160 -- 168. Two people.
What if you had a country the size of Iraq, but you had not just two people but maybe 200, and maybe not 200 but 2,000, who, unlike the Murrah bombing, were willing to commit suicide in Iraq as well? This is a situation that the military can have an effect on, and I can guarantee you the coalition in there is having an effect. It would be worse, much worse, if the coalition forces weren't there, and if Iraqi forces weren't there to provide security.
But if you think back to the Murrah Building, two people that cobbled together their own explosives, their own conveyance and had that kind of effect, and you take it times 10 or times 100 or whatever you want to take it times, that's why I go back and why I responded to, I think, one of the previous questions: Success in Iraq will depend on two things. One is political progress. But political progress with all parts of the population feeling as if they have a stake in the new Iraq -- and support for these people will dry up. And that's how you win insurgencies. You don't win them just with military force.
The second thing it's going to take is a strong Iraqi security force with both police and border patrol and army. And that is, in fact, happening.
So you're right. They are picking on the soft and easy targets. That's what they do. They're not picking on the hard targets. (Italics added)
I include the context with the question and the full reply, which deals only in part with comparisons between Oklahoma City bombing and the insurgency in Iraq. From General Myers' pov, the Oklahoma City bombing was an act of "indigenous" or native-born/domestic terrorism and, from that pov, Timothy McVeigh was both an "indigenous terrorist" and a "domestic terrorist," and in his view, a "terrorist" as well; engaged in an "act of terror" (terroristic act); he was not a "foreign-born" or "foreign" terrorist; but he was a "terrorist" of the kind that "indigenous" and "domestic" qualify the term terrorist to mean, in terms of who he was [where he was born] and where [on his native soil, in the US, "domestic" territory] he perpetrated violent acts of bombing a federal building resulting in apparently-indiscriminate deaths of and injuries to fellow Americans and others, regardless of their ages, national and ethnic identities, gender, and so on.
There are differences between semantic quibbling over general meanings of words and their specialized meanings as defined by legislation, courts of law, government policy (including the US Departments of State and Defense), and so on. Words have different kinds of usages; general usage by everyday people is not the same as the specialized kinds. People engaged in semantic quibbles and other kinds of arguments about the meanings of words and their applications and usages need to keep in mind that dictionaries define different kinds of meanings and priortize them by numbering them according to which are most frequently used in the English language and also indicate specialized meanings. If people are going to argue about the applicability and the meanings of words, they need to consult published (peer-reviewed) dictionaries compiled by experts in language, not online sources like Wikipedia, in which words often may seem to mean what (non-peer-reviewed) users want them to mean.
Sometimes the applicability of a word when dealing with the subject of a legal case (the Oklahoma City bombing indictments and trials) is simply not debatable. It is a matter of public record. The applicability of a word is a moot issue. In what Wikipedia terms reliable sources, the Oklahoma City bombing is generally described just as General Myers describes it, as the the worst occurrence of "domestic terrorism" in the history of the United States thus far; whereas 9/11 is considered the worst occurrence of domestic "foreign terrorism" (that is, committed on "domestic soil" or in the US). So far that is general consensus (not among Wikipedia users--who are not reliable authorities) but among sources that Wikipedia policy considers WP:Reliable sources: published and peer-reviewed sources. Such matters of fact presented in reliable sources are not open to votes!
If a person has been indicted, tried, convicted, and put to death for crimes that come under the rubric (of United States law, FBI policy) as a "domestic terrorist" for "murders" that he committed (breaking specific laws), it seems rather absurd to try to argue that he was not the particular kind of criminal that the FBI, the State department, the Defense department, U.S. federal prosecutors, and the U.S. court system (verdict and punishment phases of the trial) (followed by the public) state that he was in court records and in legislation (and according to general consensus). Those who attempt to argue differently appear to have idiosyncratic political or personal agenda led by biases, and not
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view.
Even if McVeigh himself did not "intend" to commit a "terroristic" act; what he did can still be legitimately called a "terroristic" act due to its results. Sometimes criminals intend to engage in one kind of act (or crime) and, in the course of doing so, engage and find themselves tried with something else (a different crime)--that's their own "bad luck." If he really did not intend a "terroristic" act, it doesn't really matter (anymore); because, as a consequence of his own actions, he engaged in federal crimes that the federal government (its laws) legally considers "terrorism," he got caught doing that, he got indicted for those federal crimes, he got convicted for those federal crimes, and he was executed for those federal crimes, according to federal law in a federal court. No matter what he may or may not have "intended" and no matter what his "motives" may or may not have been, that is the outcome of his trial. He was tried and convicted of "intentionally" committing crimes which the FBI then and now defines as acts of domestic terrorism.
In other words, the consequences of his actions were not an "accident"; they were planned in a pre-mediated way ("pre-mediated" acts of murder and harm), and, indeed, he succeeded in what he intended (tried) to do. He did not claim that the results of the Oklahoma City bombing were an "accident." He did not accidentally drive a truck loaded with explosive fuel oil into a federal building; he planned the incident, hand-picked the particular federal building, drove the truck himself, and left the truck where it could cause optimal damage, fleeing the scene, then getting apprehended (getting caught was really the only unplanned event, or accident; he should have checked his tail-lights, and was careless in his choice of getaway vehicle!). That is what the government proved in its case against him.
Re: his so-called actual political "motives" or "intentions": whatever they were, no one can really know for sure. The definition of those motives comes largely from what he himself said, wrote, and told others--a kind of hearsay; he didn't testify in his trial and was not required to do so, in fact, was protected against doing so. Motives are useful in establishing "reasonable doubt" after someone is convicted of crimes during his or her trial. The prosecution convicted McVeigh "beyond a reasonable doubt," convincing a jury that he intended to commit murder and harm against human bodies and federal property. Why he intended to do so (his "motives"--hate, personal animus against the government's prior actions, etc.) are really not relevant. The prosecution convinced a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that he did what he was indicted for doing.
In terms of intention, no one who uses that amount of explosives against a building which housed federal offices and people (including children) in those offices (and day care center) who was not insane (and he did not use an insanity defense) would expect anything other than what resulted: death, destruction of human life and property, and general mayhem. It is patently absurd for anyone (in their right mind) to argue that he did not intend for people to die or that the acts of murder and harm to human bodies and federal property that occurred were not "pre-meditated" based on the evidence at trial (which prevailed with the jury) and the verdict, which was upheld. He allowed himself to be defended; the defense lost the case. If it had gone the other way, he would not be called a "domestic terrorist." Given a presumption of innocence throughout the case, the federal government proved to a jury of his peers that he guilty of the crimes with which he was charged "beyond a reasonable doubt," and the federal government prevailed in its case against him. It is the federal government (the FBI) that designates him a "domestic terrorist" via its own definitions of terrorism and domestic terrorism, not Wikipedia users. Wikipedia editors are supposed to cite reliable sources, not make up what they wish. If controversies exist about uses of terminology pertaining to describing Timothy McVeigh in an article about who he was and what he did during his lifetime, then editors can cite reliable sources summarizing what the controversies are. But that does not change the FBI and other federal designations of the acts that McVeigh was convicted of committing and executed for committing as a "domestic" kind of "terrorism." The terms may be debated, but they are still terms in current usage (specialized usages of terms) used to describe him and what he did.
In summary: Timothy McVeigh is (generally) viewed as a "domestic terrorist" (or an "indigenous terrorist") who committed an act of "terrorism" in and against the United States of America. (His motives--whatever reasons he had or may have had, including those which he himself defined prior to, during, and after his trial and his conviction and post-conviction; in retrospect, reasons for his crimes speculated about by others after his execution in punishment for the crimes of which he was convicted; his "initial" motives--stated and re-stated by him, speculated about by others--his motives and such interpretations of his motives or his "alleged" motives are not really as important as the nature of the crimes that he engaged in and their consequences, in terms of case law and the crime that he was committed of.
When he was charged with his (at the time) alleged crimes and then indicted for having committed such (at the time) alleged crimes as charged, those charges were multiple, and they involved acts of violence including murder; at the time, he was not charged with being a "terrorist" per se (the indictment, obviously, was prior to 9/11 changes in the law and the Patriot Act). But the actual terms of an indictment at the time does not mean that he was not also a "terrorist" or "domestic terrorist" as well as a "murderer" etc.
The fact that various people (of various backgrounds and reliability as "sources") question (or doubt) whether or not he was a "terrorist" or a "domestic terrorist" may be noteworthy (or not); but the mere fact of the questioning or the doubting of the applicability of the labels does not render those (descriptive) labels by government and legal outcomes any less reliable in sources that can be used on Wikipedia. The terms have specific definitions in specific contexts; personal connotations for the words are not relevant. The terms have legal definitions specified by government criminal investigative agencies (e.g., the FBI). McVeigh was charged with federal crimes, federal jurisdiction applies, and federal legal criminal definitions apply.
Because Timothy McVeigh is dead, W:Blp does not apply; but W:Accuracy and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and WP:Reliable sources still do.
One can define controversies (citing reliable sources), but that does not change factual designations of the man or his crimes in legal decisions (court records),
legislation (See the Congressional Record), or general public opinion (general consensus).
Unidentified and unpublished and non-peer-reviewed people's opinions posted in this talk page do not constitute such citable sources. See also Domestic terrorism in the United States and Definitions of terrorism#United States, and various sections of related articles on definitions of terrorism, citing the US FBI definition of terrorism and domestic terrorism. Whether or not one agrees with the FBI's definition or the current US government's definitions of terrorism and/or domestic terrorism seems a moot point to me in relation to the convicted and executed (and thus dead) Timothy McVeigh, still widely cited in reliable sources (not unreliable sources) as a "terrorist" and a "domestic terrorist"; those are the current definitions, even if they are controversial retrospectively (espec. post-9/11). Until most reliable sources convincingly argue that McVeigh was not a "terrorist" or a "domestic terrorist" that is what he was and remains (in a Wikipedia article defining who and what he was). --NYScholar 02:45, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
This needs to get added to the web page: http://www.jaynadavis.com/story090502-wsj1.html
There is a theory that John Doe #2 was an arab with connections to Iraq and Al Qaeda. This is definitely a conspiracy theory, but it has gotten widespread media coverage and ought to be mentioned.
thats likly propagandist hogwash, drummed up by government people on order to cash in on the fear . i know i sound odd for saying that in that way, but thats a distinct possiblllity, and if it is true then al queda shouldnt be mentioned here.
btw, sign your posts. Gabrielsimon 07:30, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
[Update: Unprotected; see "Terrorism" sec. above.] --NYScholar 02:07, 7 August 2006 (UTC)]
I just stopped by, and have no intention of getting involved in an edit war. My comments as an outsider: It seems this page is protected but there's no discussion going on. It's not even immediately clear what the dispute is. (I haven't waded through the history.) Perhaps protection should be lifted. JamesMLane 02:39, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
dont wnat to call hoim a terrorist because hes an american huh? well the FBI called him one, so change it back.
Gabrielsimon 06:33, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
As noted previously on this page, this article seems to be missing basic information. McVeigh was associated in the press and by the FBI with the militia movement and was reading the Turner Diaries. These seem like significant and well-known issues. Is there a reason these are not included? - Willmcw 17:55, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
A more NPOV image should be used as the introduction, police mugshots belong further down in an article :) Sherurcij ( talk) ( bounties) 03:49, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
I think that it's important to include, next to the line about him being a domestic terrorist, that some people consider him to be a Jeffersonian patriot. He was arrested whilst wearing a T-shirt with a Jeffersonian quote emblazoned on it and some still maintain that he was a classic American patriot rising up against the "evil" federal government; he fervently believed in the Constitution, the Eighth Amendment, states' rights and the importance of the military, for example. This reference would ensure a fair, balanced POV. Evidence of this viewpoint is present in the impartial book American Terrorist by Lou Michel and Dan Herbeck. Richardbooth 15:40, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I am uncomfortable with the categorisation of McVeigh as a libertarian. No libertarian commentator that I know of has ever praised McVeigh's terrorist actions (though if anyone knows otherwise I'd genuinely be interested to know about it). But more than that, one of the central tenets of libertarianism is that the deliberate initiation of force against innocent people is unacceptable. So, despite the fact that McVeigh thought of himself as a libertarian, his actions indicate otherwise. Any thoughts? -- Matthew Humphreys 22:30, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
A man is not a libertarian based on the vote of others, he is one based on his ascribed beliefs. As it is documented by Timothy McVeigh himself, that he ascribed to the libertarian beliefs, he was one, however much other libertarians disliked his beliefs/actions on other topics. There is no citation to dispute that Timothy McVeigh was a libertarian as he claimed to be, so I have re-added the category. It is as verified as the fact that he was a Roman Catholic. pat8722 02:36, 14 March 2006 (UTC) I will further add that it is a central tenet to all civilized human beings that the deliberate initiation of force against innocent people is unacceptable, and therefore it is not a defining "central tenet" of libertarism, i.e. not what defines it. And, remember, McVeigh didn't consider himself as initiating force against innocent people, he was targeting those he considered enemies in a war against the American people (FBI, BATF), considering the innocent who were killed/harmed as "collateral damage". pat8722 03:02, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Just because a man may have made a mistake about what constitutes a war, does not mean he is not a libertarian. Timothy McVeigh ascribed to the libertarian doctrine wholesale. Those doctrines played a major role in his actions against the FBI and BATF. Libertarism does not prohibit participation in war activities, which Timothy McVeigh had concluded was the case with the FBI and BATF. pat8722 14:29, 14 March 2006 (UTC) I will further add that "collateral damage" is an accepted part of war. Because of the deliberate decision of the U.S. Government to intentionally design government buildings to use babies as human shields, McVeigh had no choice but to accept their deaths, if he was to accomplish his act of war against the headquarters of those who had planned and executed the atrocities at Waco. pat8722 14:41, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Timothy McVeigh would also have argued that mass murder is not a legitimate action, consistent with what you claim is a "tenet" of libertarianism (which it is not, as it does not properly not "define" libertarianism, as it applies to ALL civilized people). Defense of that position is why he did what he did. He considered Waco a mass-murder sitation, in essence a declaration of war on the American people by the American government, and he responded with an act of war directed specifically at the headquarters responsible for Waco, in which some innocents where necessarily also killed as unavoidable collateral damage. Acts of war are not correctly termed "mass murder", they are called "acts of war", which is what it was to Timothy McVeigh. You have identified no doctrine of McVeigh that would not be consistent with libertarianism.
pat8722 22:49, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
The wikipedia article no where establishes that McVeigh was in league with, or sympathetic with, white nationalism, and there is no reason to believe that he was. The Non-aggression principle article you cite states specifically "the principle does not preclude retaliation against aggression". There is everywhere reason to believe McVeigh considered his attack on the FBI and BATF at the Murrah Federal Building to be an act of war in response to Waco. And no psychiatrist would agree with you that he would have to be insane to hold such a belief. You are so outraged by what he did that you want no connection to him whatsoever, and you feel his inclusion as a libertarian gives you such a connection. But he held to the same fundamental beliefs you do regarding libertarian principles, he just came to a different conclusion as to what Waco meant, and responded thereupon consistently with libertarian principles based on that conclusion. An act of war is not murder, and that's how he viewed it. pat8722 03:50, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I have removed some of the unsubstantiated pov about the MidWest Bank Robbers from the article. It has never been established that McVeigh was affiliated with them in any way. I have read the letter to the editor at [5] regarding the Libertarian Party press release published shortly after McVeigh claimed to be a libertarian, which is really irrelevant, as McVeigh claimed to be a "libertarian" not a "Libertarian". But, we could also check out the pledge required by the relatively small "Libertarian Party", said to be a pledge against the initiation of force. Probably the actions of McVeigh would have been consistent even within the terms of the pledge of that small subset of the "libertarian movement", as it was McVeigh's position that he did not "initiate" force, but that he was responding to force which had been initiated at Waco. So, thus far, not only was McVeigh consistent within the doctrine of "libertarianism", it also appears he was consistent within the doctrine of "Libertarianism", too. That Steve Dasbach, Libertarian Party national director, considered McVeigh a murderer, is irrelevant. pat8722 15:43, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
pat8722, you say that "Timothy McVeigh ascribed to the libertarian doctrine wholesale." Can you explain this and cite sources? I am not saying you're wrong, but I would like to see some sources. Was he in favor of drug legalization, for example (one of the signature issues for libertarians)? Mirror Vax 22:19, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Mirror Vax, It's really moot to the argument, as evidence would have to be presented that he was NOT a libertarian, given his statement that he was. The burden remains on the opposing side to prove he was lying. But I made the statement based on the fact that everything I've read about him, and seen about him (he sat in front of me at a "guns/libertarian/God" type rally, a little over a year before the bombing) bespeaks that he was a MOST committed libertarian - his committment to the civil liberties of the people at Waco, his views on the availablity of guns and explosives, the procedural nature of his appeals, his insistance that he had a right to have his death broadcast, the type of people he associated with (none of whom were known to be white supremecists or Islamists or any other freakish group), his willingness to sacrifice his life for others, and even the t-shirt he was wearing when he was captured. There's nothing in what we know about him to suggest that he was anything other than what he said he was. And only a libertarian could have done what he did in attacking the Murrah Federal Building. pat8722 00:29, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
No, "conservatism" has changed its meaning over time. It used to tend more towards libertarianism than it now does. What is termed "conservatism" these days sometimes recommends violating even the most fundamental constitutional rights, which would have been abhorrent to the largely libertarian "conservatives" of old, and aborrent to McVeigh (the Patriot Act, etc). (The Libertarian Party was well-represented at the rally - a Party speaker, literature, stumping...) Being willing to sacrifice yourself for others is a trait commonly found among libertarians, even though it is not a "defining" characteristic. Being willing to blow up buildings in defense of libertarianism is not at all at odds with being a libertarian when it's "war", which McVeigh believed it was. As you keep bringing up the drug issue, I will add that it would be possible to be a libertarian and agree that an exeption to the rule should exist regarding certain issues. As long as the libertarian philosopy is the overriding philosophy, conclusions as to particular exceptions, such as regarding drugs, are permitted, though most modern libertarians would agree that recreational drugs should not be illegal. The failure to form an opinion on certain topics is permitted, too. pat8722 02:52, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I guess it depends on the libertarian crowd you hang out with. Self-sacrifice is a trait characteristic of many libertarians. But I was careful to note that it is NOT a defining characteristic, i.e. not a doctrinal matter. So take it easy. pat8722 04:05, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
The point of dispute seems to rest on whether one's conclusions about whether Waco was an act of war, and whether the bombing of the federal building was a legitimate war act in response to it, can be used as a "litmus test" to "define" whether one is a libertarian or not. To suggest so is absurd. The definition of libertarian is "one who advocates the right of individuals to be free to do whatever they wish with their persons or property as long it allows others the same liberty." As long as a man ascribes to that fundamental belief, he is libertarian, no matter whether those beliefs lead him to believe that there is a war going on against those beliefs, and that he must fight in it, or not. History is just as likely to vindicate McVeigh as present society has condemned him, but none of that will change whether he was a libertarian in his beliefs. He says he was libertarian in his beliefs, there is every reason to believe he knew the definition when he spoke, and nothing in his actions indicate he was a mental incompetent or that he acted based on anything other than those beliefs, however wrong his conclusions about what Waco meant may have been. And there are, of course, a significant number of libertarians who agree with McVeigh. Would you want to exclude them from the definition of "libertarian", as well? pat8722 17:14, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Most people, when they say "libertarian", mean "Libertarian", and visa versa; the same is true for the use of "democrat vs Democrat". A distinction would need to be identified by the speaker, to make one. So the point is moot. pat8722 16:24, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
You state "Most people don't know there's any reason for a distinction between big-L and small-l" -that's exactly why it's moot. It only becomes an issue when the speaker makes it one, otherwise the usages are interchangeable. It's perfectly ok with me either way it appears in this article.
pat8722 22:59, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
On second thought, you've got a point. I have reverted back to little "l". In the presence of any confusion, we should use the variation McVeigh used. And I notice the article explicity states "self-described", so that really mandates it. pat8722 03:50, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Criteria for inclusion as libertarian: "people who subscribe to the political philosophy of libertarianism as the word is used in the United States." In other words, they must "subscribe" to a "Political" philosophy (not a general philosophy) of libertarianism.
Evidence regarding McVeigh: In one letter (which significantly is not about libertarianism but something else), McVeigh describes himself as libertarian in a parenthetical comment. He did not clarify whether this was a political philosophy or a personal philosophy or some other kind of philosophy.
What is a "political philosophy"?: "Political philosophy is the study of the fundamental questions about the state, government, politics, property, law and the enforcement of a legal code by authority: what they are, why they are needed, what makes a government legitimate, what rights and freedoms it should protect and why, what form it should take and why, what the law is, and what duties citizens owe to a legitimate government, if any, and when it may be legitimately overthrown - if ever." (wikipedia) In other words, political philosophy deals with forms, methods and ideals of governance, not personal behavior.
McVeigh's parenthetical comment makes it clear that he ascribed to a sort of personal libertarianism, but this is not the same as the political philosophy of libertarianism. His political views were certainly anti-American and may have been somewhat anarchist. Anarchy may be strongly related to personal libertarianism but less so to political libertarianism. (Note that I do not connect political libertarianism with the Libertarian Party in this discussion - they may not be the same thing in every case so I have avoided that.)
It is pretty clear that McVeigh at least claimed to be a libertarian (it is harder to detect whether he really ascribed to that philosophy), but the bulk of the evidence is that he did NOT subscribe the political philosophy of libertarianism as is the criteria for that category. Furthermore, a single parenthetical reference in a letter written on a separate subject is not really "proof" that he subscribed to ANY philosophy of libertarianism. He may have been parroting someone he admired, when he really ascribed to some other philosophy. At best, the only thing that can be said is that he claimed to be a libertarian in one instance. I do not think that such a flimsy thing is encyclopedic. -- Blue Tie 22:07, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
We don't accept the claim that one is a rightful king as sufficient grounds to place one into the category of those who are rightful kings. If there is use for a [[Category:Self-Professed Messiahs]], then by all means let's load it up. And, likewise, if there use for a [[Category:Self-Professed Libertarians]] then let's fill that up as well. But let's not confuse the former with [[Category:Messiahs]], nor the latter with [[Category:Libertarians]]. — 12.72.69.54 00:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I changed
to
The original sounded a little populist to me (like some background news story trying to emphasise the horribleness of the crime for cheap dramatic effect). I changed it to the more neutral version. Since this is probably a controversial article, I figured I should mention it on the talk page. I realize that the fact that men, women and children died during the bombings is information that is now removed, but it's not something that belongs in the opening paragraph. If it's important it should be mentioned further down in the article (or rather, in the article for the bombings themselves) with proper citation and maybe some numbers while we're at it. risk 22:01, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Does only the FBI consider him a domestic terriorist? Does, for example, the Judical branch of government having convincted hm disagree? I don't think we have any POV problems simply calling him a domestic terriorist, that woudl be better that the weaseling about in the first sentence right now. At the minimum he was a convicted terriorist. Dalf | Talk 16:52, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the part considered by the FBI. -- 172.178.6.140 20:31, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
This article claims that the entirety of the next morning's witnesses was listening to the prequiem performed at the virgil service for McVeigh. That would include the journalists and the 10 survivors or victims relatives. Most survivors or relatives were pissed about Woodward because he praised the mass murderer as a comedian. So I really doubt that the survivors or relatives would go to church to hear the prequiem or to pray for the murderer.
I'd like to see some sources for that statement, so far I have only found it on the homepage of Woodward.
-- 172.177.247.183 19:43, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
This article claims: there is no evidence that McVeigh knew about it or purposely targeted children
On this CNN page FBI special agent Danny Defenbaugh states:
No matter what ... if you look at the building, you're going to see all the little cutout hands, all the little apples and flowers showing that there's a kindergarten there -- that there are children in that building .
So anyone knows it better?
-- 172.177.247.183 19:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
This article needs sourcing throughout; see the tag. I've introduced the "Notes" section. The article is plagiarized from mainly two sources. It needs citations throughout. I leave it up to the editor who first took the material from the two sources (if still here) to provide these citations in an adequate manner to document the many statements taken from these sources. The sources were not accurately identified; see the current Notes section. Most of the external links were misidentified or poorly described; see those changes as well (made earlier). This article still needs a lot of work and introduction of W:Citation and WP:Reliable sources. --NYScholar 06:45, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
[altered the heading somewhat so that people can post comments about the first paragraph as a subject that deal with other matters too. --NYScholar 02:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC)]
I first thought your edits were pretty good, but I have changed my mind. It is really too awkward for an initial opening paragraph. I think it contains too much detail for an opening paragraph and it runs on too long. I ran it through MS Word and MS Word just threw up all over it. I think the list of specific convictions should be put in the body, not in the opening paragraph. Here is what I think is a better paragraph:
Timothy James McVeigh (April 23, 1968 – June 11, 2001) was an American executed for bombing the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995. 167 people died and hundreds more were injured when McVeigh detonated a truck loaded with improvised explosives just two minutes after federal offices opened for the day. A 168th victim, a rescue worker, died after the initial blast, when a large piece of concrete crushed him.
According to MS Word this has a readability of 41 and a grade level of 13. This is contrasted to the current version with a readability of 27 and a grade level of 18. (Scores for both were calculated without dates in the paragraph) In addition, though I edited it without any POV (just seeking to simplify) it seems more like a cool neutral paragraph that would be found to summarize an encyclopedic article. The only label is the "American" which is good per wikipedia guidelines. Word suggests that I should not have removed the phrase "his role in the", but to me it reads better this way.
The deletions from the paragraph would suggest that the following should be added to the body of the document if they are not already there:
What do you you think? -- Blue Tie 04:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your efforts; unfortunately, however, there are problems with the changes that you have already made. While the sentence that you changed in the opening paragraph was a long sentence, it was not a "run-on sentence," as you state. You removed one phrase and placed it in an additional sentence. That's okay, but the paragraph reads in a choppy manner now; if I have time, I may work on that problem later.
The paragraph that you suggest restores material objected to in previous comments made on this talk page by other editors. (Please read the earlier parts of this talk page.) People have already observed that he was convicted of and then executed for specific crimes in the indictment deriving from the Oklahoma City bombing (see the link to it in external links). One needs to be precise in order to avoid the kinds of lack of W:Neutral point of view discussed by a lot of people earlier. The sentences can be more concise, but the material in them is accurate. I may restore them to an earlier version that did not incorporate the details. The details (specific charges) are in the body of the article already.
I have removed a paragraph that you [(user Blue Tie)] changed, without giving any source at all, making claims that you cannot support [without providing sources]. The changes that you (or others) made [to what was there earlier] completely alter the claims and make them even more specific and certain than they were before, but you do that without a reference to any source that anyone can verify. Not only is no "reliable source" there, but no source at all is there. [I added a few phrases in brackets for greater clarity, I hope. --NYScholar 05:31, 9 August 2006 (UTC)]
<<
In prison interviews, McVeigh denied that he knew about the day care center, that it was not visible from the street, that had he known he would have chosen another target. Nevertheless, he also stated that he felt no remorse for those deaths and described them as necessary collateral damage. citation needed
>>
Without actual sources of the so-called "prison interviews" one cannot state that "McVeigh denied" x, y, z, or what he "also stated." You give no verifiable source(s) to substantiate any of that paragraph. Where are transcripts of the "interviews" (not hearsay about them)? Where is a published account of the "interviews?" As this paragraph stands, the material does not meet WP:Cite, W:Reliable sources requirements.
[I've added this section because it discusses another paragraph in the article (not the first paragraph). --NYScholar 05:22, 9 August 2006 (UTC)]
Citations to multiple (not just one or two) reliable sources still needed in this article. --NYScholar 01:54, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I just don't have the time to fix all the problems in this article and/or to provide all the missing sources for the plagiarized sections of it. It still needs sourcing (See all my comments about this problem above.) --NYScholar 05:31, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The places where I've already supplied citations in notes are just examples of how to do that and of what other editors still need to do to correct remaining problems of lack of sourcing and plagiarism in this article. I do not have time to do all that work myself. --NYScholar 06:47, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Here's the longer passage from Walsh from which I quote a portion in a note that I added as a citation:
McVeigh's cold-blooded act horrified millions in the US and around the world. But a recently published book, American Terrorist: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing by two Buffalo News reporters, Lou Michel and Dan Herbeck, reports that McVeigh has no regrets about his act. He openly acknowledged having set off the bomb to the authors and claims sole responsibility for the mass killing. During an appearance on ABC News's “Prime Time Thursday” March 29, Herbeck commented, “He [McVeigh] never expressed one ounce of remorse for the Oklahoma City bombing.” Michel described McVeigh's reaction to the explosion's aftermath: “Damn, I didn't knock the building down. I didn't take it down.”
According to Michel and Herbeck, McVeigh claimed not to have known that a day-care center was located in the Murrah Building, and that if he had known it, in his own words, “it might have given me pause to switch targets. That's a large amount of collateral damage.”
Michel and Herbeck quote McVeigh, with whom they spoke for some 75 hours, on his attitude to the victims: “To these people in Oklahoma who have lost a loved one, I'm sorry but it happens every day. You're not the first mother to lose a kid, or the first grandparent to lose a grandson or a granddaughter. It happens every day, somewhere in the world. I'm not going to go into that courtroom, curl into a fetal ball, and cry just because the victims want me to do that.”
McVeigh's lack of remorse for the deaths of 19 children, as well as secretaries, clerks, administrators and others employed by the federal government, and the dozens of people who were merely visiting the building, should serve as a warning about the character of elements promoted by the ultra-right in the US. They are brutal, cowardly and ruthless.
While American Terrorist contains some valuable material, it provides little insight into the social source of McVeigh's act. Indeed Michel and Herbeck end their work on the following note: “The same imponderable question haunts those who lost sons, daughters, spouses, friends, and other loved ones when America's long-simmering tensions over gun rights and big government exploded in Oklahoma City. Why?” This amounts to an admission of failure on the part of authors who, by all rights, should have dedicated their 388-page book to answering that very question.
Walsh goes on to add his own interpretation (from a socialist socio-economic pov) of why McVeigh bombed the Murrah Building. It would be interesting to compare this pov with other interpretations from other perspectives and to cite such sources too, if the article is to raise issues of McVeigh's purported motivations (those which McVeigh himself claims to have acted from, in interviews; those which others speculate about in court testimony, articles, and books, e.g.). One cannot simply cite interviews with McVeigh as "evidence" of why he did what he did; those interviews have contexts, such as the court case going on at the time; McVeigh's motives in giving the interviews; McVeigh's relative truth or falsity; the circumstances of the interviews and the interviewers; the motives of the interviewers and the venues in which they were broadcast or published; and so on). The goal of the article should be to achieve W:Neutral point of view.
People who wrote earlier versions of this article relied heavily on Michel and Herbeck and only one or two other sources (without citing the sources after the points taken from any of those sources). The whole article needs clean up still. --NYScholar 07:00, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
See the article for this other example which needs sourcing: what I supplied comes from the following passage in Hoffman's online chapter "'The Face of Terror'":
In April of 1991, McVeigh put his heart and soul into his long-awaited dream of becoming a Green Beret. On March 28 he reported to Camp McCall, the Special Forces Assessment and Selection (SFAS) training facility west of Fort Bragg, for the grueling 21-day assessment course. But McVeigh, who had kept himself in top shape by doing 400 push-ups a day and marching around the post with a 100 pound pack was now out of shape and he knew it. The Bradley gunner who had served in the Persian Gulf for four months was also drained from the stress of combat.
As the recruits stood at attention, the instructor asked several of the recently returned war veterans if they wanted to return to their unit to get back in shape. One of the soldiers yelled that they were ready, so out of a sense of gung-ho pride, nobody backed out.
The first day of testing was devoted to psychological screening. McVeigh claims he had no problem with the psychological tests, which included the Adult Personality Inventory, the Minnesota Multiple Phase Personality Test, and a sentence completion exam designed by Army psychologists.
The second day of tests began with an obstacle course which McVeigh passed with ease. After lunch, the recruits were led on a high-speed march with 50 pound rucksacks. Yet new boots tore into McVeigh's feet during the five mile march, and with the worst yet to come, he and another recruit, David Whitmyer, decided to drop out. McVeigh signed a Voluntary/Involuntary Withdrawal from the SFAS school. His single sentence explanation read: "I am not physically ready, and the rucksack march hurt more than it should."[172]
The mainstream press jumped on his initial failure to make the Special Forces. He was "unable to face the failure" stated the New York Times. "He washed out on the second day."[173]
"There were no second chances," claimed the Washington Post. "His spirit was broken."[174]
These reports suggested that McVeigh had failed the psychological screening tests. "Military officials said that preliminary psychological screening had shown him to be unfit," lauded the ever-wise voice of the New York Times. "[He] saw his cherished hope of becoming a Green Beret shattered by psychological tests."[175] "It was apparently a blow so crushing that he quit the Army and went into a psychic tailspin."[176]
Media pundits quickly backed up their armchair analyses' with statements from several of McVeigh's former buddies.
"Anyone who puts all that effort into something and doesn't get it would be mentally crushed," said Roger Barnett, the driver of McVeigh's Bradley. "He wasn't the same McVeigh. He didn't go at things the way he normally did…. He didn't have the same drive. He didn't have his heart in the military anymore."[177]
"He always wanted to do better than everyone," said Captain Terry Guild, "and that (Green Berets) was his way of trying to do it. He took a lot of flak. He was really down on himself."[178]
McVeigh claimed "That's a bunch of bunk," in response to the allegations. "Any realist knows that if you develop blisters on the second day… you're not going to make it."[179] [Still, the self-styled psychoanalysts of the mainstream press made much of his disappointment, asserting knowingly that it was the crux of McVeigh's "burgeoning torment."]
[Apparently, the "psychojournalists" at the Times had never bothered to check with officials at the SFAS school. "McVeigh dropped out of the course on the second day," said Colonel Ken McGraw, Information Officer at the Special Operations Command at Fort Bragg. "His psychological test work would not have even been graded yet."]
According to McVeigh's attorney Stephen Jones, his Army records indicate that his SFAS psychological tests weren't graded until April of 1995. The "military official" who leaked the story about McVeigh's "psychological test failure" turned out to be none other than FBI Agent John R. Hersley, who testified to this repeatedly during the Federal Grand Jury hearings. Apparently, Hersley never told the grand jurors that he was moonlighting as an Army psychologist.
Although McVeigh may have been genuinely disappointed by his initial failure, he added that the school's commander had invited the decorated war veteran to try out again whenever he felt he was ready. It seems McVeigh was not too disappointed to score a perfect 1,000 points during a Bradley gunner competition six months later at Fort Riley, earning him another Army commendation and the honor of the division's "Top Gun," a rare achievement. An Army evaluation also rated him "among the best" in leadership potential and an "inspiration to young soldiers."[180]
Yet in spite of McVeigh's achievements, "a bit of doubt started to surface" in his mind about a potential for a career in the military.[181] Although a friend said "I swear to God he could have been Sergeant Major of the Army — he was that good of a soldier," McVeigh apparently was having second thoughts. Most of these, his Army buddies said, stemmed from the military's downsizing then in progress. He also confided to his friend Dave Dilly that without being a Green Beret, the Army wouldn't be worth the effort. "I think he felt he got a raw deal, and wanted out," said Littleton.
Given McVeigh's achievements — his quick rise to sergeant, his medals of commendation, the distinction of being "Top Gun," and the extremely high praise of his superiors, one has to wonder what his real motives were. It seems highly unlikely that given the massive effort he put into his military career, he would take an early out on such presumptive pretenses. McVeigh was a spit and polish soldier with a top notch record. He was totally devoted to the military. He had served in combat, earning several medals. If anything he was due for his next promotion. The commander of the Special Forces school had even invited him to try out again in a few months. As Sheffield Anderson said, "He seemed destined for a brilliant career in the military."
These observations were backed up by McVeigh's sister Jennifer. "I thought it was going to be his career. He was definitely a career military type. That was his life, you know. His life revolved around that."
It hardly seems likely that the ambitious soldier who had recently signed on for another four year hitch would opt out so easily. Yet, on December 31, 1991, Sergeant McVeigh took an early discharge from the Army, and went back to his home town of Pendleton, NY.
[Numbers in brackets refer to notes provided by Hoffman.]
If one reads the whole passage as quoted above, one can see that taking little bits out of context is highly problematic and also that the above passage is the interpretation of its author David Hoffman and that interpretation needs to be checked against a variety of other sources too, since Hoffman appears rather sympathetic to McVeigh and is attempting to "set the record straight" from Hoffman's own particular point of view on the subject. With such highly- controversial subjects, one really does need to make an extra effort to avoid repeating biases and to make clear what they are when one encounters them in sources used. --NYScholar 08:05, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I mentioned in an editing summary that three years are omitted from this article's account of McVeigh's biography. Hoffman fills in that gap, but that single source needs to be checked against other published biographical sources too. Hoffman presents his own theories about various aspects of McVeigh's personality and behavior, in one place suggesting that he may have been trained as part of psychological experiments in the manner of The Manchurian Candidate (novel, movie). Some of that seems quite far-fetched to me and highly speculative on Hoffman's part. --NYScholar 08:46, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The intro is edited to exclude this utterly inaccurate piece. McVeigh did not protest the Iraq War, beginning 1991. His entire Gulf War participation and post-Gulf Green Beret pursuits explicitly cut against and undermine any such bias. The reference provided only dates from 1998 and does not answer the latter observations. AOluwatoyin 20:31, 16 August 2006 (UTC)AOluwatoyin
I made some structural changes. Except as noted in the edit summaries, I tried VERY HARD not to remove or change any thoughts or ideas. I just made the structure a more in keeping with wikipedia policies and I removed some redundancies. I promise there was no attempt at any other agenda.
There are some things that still need work:
Thats all I can see for now
Someone should include something about PETA's letter to McVeigh, requesting that his last meal be a vegetarian one; it's pretty interesting. -- MosheA 01:54, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
The motivations section contains the sentence: "McVeigh confirmed his anti-American views in a commentary on the second Iraq War (1991–2003)" . How can a man who died in 2001 have a commentary on a war that started in 2003? This sentence should be clarified, but I'm not entire sure what it means. Was he talking about a hypothetical future Iraq war? About hte weapons inspections issues that happened in the 90s? Something else? -- Alecmconroy 04:25, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
He referred to Desert Storm. The First Gulf War was the 1980-88 Iraq-Iran war. The second is Desert Storm, the third is Operation Iraqi Freedom since 2003.
This section is completely unreferenced and uses weasel words instead of name attributions. Unless someone sources this it should probably be deleted per WP:V and WP:RS. Durova 23:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
In the section Motivations for the bombing, McVeigh supposedly gives comments on the "second" Iraq war. Is the writer implying the 1991 Gulf War (of which McVeigh is a veteran) is the "first" Iraq war? Then is the 2002 war in Iraq the "second"? McVeigh did not live to see the "second" war (executed three months prior to 9/11). Polihale 00:57, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
He referred to Desert Storm. The First Gulf War was the 1980-88 Iraq-Iran war. The second is Desert Storm, the third is Operation Iraqi Freedom since 2003.
The anon is citing the American Heritage Dictionary. Here's what they say, in full: The verb graduate has denoted the action of conferring an academic degree or diploma since at least 1421. Accordingly, the action of receiving a degree should be expressed in the passive, as in She was graduated from Yale in 1998. This use is still current, if old-fashioned, and is acceptable to 78 percent of the Usage Panel. In general usage, however, it has largely yielded to the much more recent active pattern (first attested in 1807): She graduated from Yale in 1998. Eighty-nine percent of the Panel accepts this use. It has the advantage of ascribing the accomplishment to the student, rather than to the institution, which is usually appropriate in discussions of individual students. When the institution's responsibility is emphasized, however, the older pattern may still be recommended. A sentence such as The university graduated more computer science majors in 1997 than in the entire previous decade stresses the university's accomplishment, say, of its computer science program. On the other hand, the sentence More computer science majors graduated in 1997 than in the entire previous decade implies that the class of 1997 was in some way a remarkable group. •The Usage Panel feels quite differently about the use of graduate to mean “to receive a degree from,” as in She graduated Yale in 1998. Seventy-seven percent object to this usage. [6] In other words, "graduated" is more appropriate usage nowadays. -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 02:51, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
(unindent) There are some factual errors in your statement. They are:
But excluding these issues, you made a good point. Unfortunately it is all overcome by a superior edit that is now in the article. -- Blue Tie 06:19, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
While many many many people (including me) consider McVeigh a terrorist, the word terrorist is loaded and subjective. We should definitely say that he is widely considered a terrorist, or that the FBI said he was a terrorist, I don't think we should define him as a terrorist in the very first sentence (this is being rehashed on the talk page to avoid WP:3RR). -- Daniel Olsen 06:07, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I noticed from the discussion that Timothy McVeigh was a self-described libertarian. Would it be fair to say that he was a member of an extreme right anti-government group, the Patriot Movement? Because that's exactly what the French Wikipedia says: Il était membre d'un groupe d'extrême droite anti-gouvernemental, le Patriot Movement. Your opinions would be appreciated. 64.154.26.251 06:33, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
He may not have been a libertarian. His discription is not precise. However, I think I recall somewhere that he was connected with the Patriot Movement. However, unless it is from a reliable and verifiable source, it probably should not be added at this point unless you have really good reason to believe it is so and citations would come later. -- Blue Tie 13:48, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
removed the government persecution theory section. loaded with weasel words, no citations, references to an fbi 'crackdown on the far right' with no evidence of such a crackdown... frymaster 18:09, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
This text keeps appearing in the lead section. It's inappropriate there — if it belongs in the article at all, it should be in the Conspiracy theories section. Personally, I don't think it belongs anywhere. I think it's link spam, or maybe we need a new category of conspiracy spam. Anyhow, infowars is not a credible source, and the video is nonsense (yes I actually viewed it, please don't repeat my mistake – the soldier's face appears for about two frames, and he doesn't resemble McVeigh at all).
My instinct is to just keep reverting this as vandalism, but some people may not consider it blatant enough for that, and I don't want to run afoul of WP:3RR, so I'm following procedure by opening a discussion here on the talk page. Does anyone care to present an argument for keeping these links? Cheers, Eleuther 13:49, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
History of insertion and reversion so far:
The anonymous IPs all resolve to talia.net in Sweden except:
I think it's reasonable to assume they're all the same person, except perhaps the Jena one, which may be a friend who was asked to come in and un-revert some edits (here and to Alex Jones (radio). The person ignores invitations to discuss thing on the talk page. I'm not sure how to proceed from here, suggestions are welcome — Thanks! Eleuther 16:52, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
(Note: I will continue to update the above list without necessarily signing every change. Eleuther 17:52, 25 December 2006 (UTC))
In the section Military career in this Wikipedia article it says that he was discharged on December 31, 1991 - this is correct. I have added in the fact that he joined the Army reserve and was honourable discharged from the army for the final time in May 1992 - this the FBI agrees with - never to be in the Army again.
However, and this is a big however, I have recently found out that their is video footage of him in the Army ( Camp Grafton specifically, in uniform, learning explosives and demolition) as late as August 3 1993! article and www.infowarscom/articles/us/okc_bombing_tim_mcveigh_on_august_3_1993.htm unreliable fringe source? Bill Bean article] FK0071a 13:08, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
This article doesn't mention the only book that McVeigh authorised himself, American Terrorist? I think something needs to be said. Read/listen to the interview with the author on the books pages external links. FK0071a 15:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure why this is the top of the article anyway, but I didn't like the way the section originally started out saying (without cites) that McVeigh was a devoted Roman Catholic, and then said (with cite) that he 'believed in God'. I didn't like this because, in the Time Magazine interview cited, McVeigh specifically disclaims any Catholic faith, saying 'he had lost touch' and 'never really picked up' the religion. Leaving this uncited while mentioning the faith earlier makes it sound like he was still Catholic.
This also explains an implied difference between the Guardian and Time articles... there wasn't any, really.
Dnjscott 22:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC)