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Wontonotnow ( talk) 23:18, 27 September 2010 (UTC) The timeline was becoming asynchronous around 2003-2005 because of a tag for "recent events". This was causing people to add items in 2 different areas. I pasted the items in their proper places. "Recent" is relative and can cause confusion, so I took "recent events" out completely. I do NOT agree that a timeline of this detail is "not appropriate for an encyclopedia". We just need to evolve our definition of Encyclopedia that fits the information age.
Ed, the problem I see with this solution is that we now have an entry that probably doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. At best, this list will be a level of detail about the recent violence in that region that is unmatched in any other entry (WWII Dresden, genocide, concentration camp, Hiroshima, etc.)
At worst, it's going to be a constant source of advocacy.
Hum -- I never did like this timeline and now it has its own article. I have to agree with Marknau and state my opinion that this level of detail is not appropriate for an encyclopedia and this particular timeline does show a bias of omission by not stating the daily hardships imposed on Palestinians by occupying Israeli troops and periodic more severe actions (it is also incomplete and very inconsistent on what is actually included). I know, current events has similar issues, but current events doesn't pretend to be an encyclopedia article. -- mav
I'm not sure if I've breached etiquette by doing this, but I've added this page to the Wikipedia:Votes for deletion page. Are we supposed to take this discussion to Wikipedia talk:Votes for deletion, now? GrahamN
Actually, my reason for nominating it for deletion wasn't that it is PoV, but that it is not a suitable subject for an encyclopaedia, and people who feel strongly about the topic will be distracted from working on proper articles by the need to purge it of propaganda for one side or the other. Obvious bias in an article will inevitably undermine people's confidence in the whole thing, but it will be continuous hard work for somebody to keep this absurd "article" neutral. Since I seem to one of only a few contributors here who aren't clearly biased towards Israel, it looks like this task will fall largely to me. I don't want to have to do this, and I will not do this. It isn't what I thought Wikipedia was about. Since there doesn't seem to be a consensus that this article should be deleted, you will no doubt be delighted to hear that I will be unable to contribute further to the project. I predict, indeed I hope, that if this kind of blatant abuse is allowed to continue then Wikipedia will fail. This is a terrible shame because if you were to stick to the original idea of being an encyclopaedia then within a few years it would probably have become the most respected source of information in the world. Goodbye. Please delete my home pages and my login account. GrahamN 20:17 Jul 24, 2002 (PDT)
Graham, I know that just yesterday we did not see eye to eye on something at first, but in just a short while we were able to come to some solution that was satisfactory to both of us--and I think we did it in a friendly, rationale manner, devoid of personal insults, abuses, or rants. I hope you feel the same. I enjoyed the give and take, and felt that your concern for a proper portrayal of the issues was reflected in what you wrote. Frankly, I was looking forward to more discussions that would help us make the articles on this subject as good as possible. I ask you to please reconsider. Your contributions are invaluable in this and other areas as well. Please don't let the heated passion of this topic sway you otherwise. I hope you will stay and continue to contribute to this and many other topics. Danny
Mav, I moved the timeline here because (a) I like chronologies and (b) I thought it was better to have it here than in a talk page. Perhaps this article will develop into two main sections: (1) a relatively dispassionate list of violent incidents and (2) accurate representation of the various POVs about the violence.
Just an idea. Peace, brother. Ed Poor
My main concern is that political events that happened only months ago are way to young to be included in an encyclopedia. It is almost impossible to weed out the facts from the propaganda. As it is now, most events is about suicide bombings which is understandable as they get more airtime than for example, Israeli roadblocks and killings. I think that would be hard to change as a timeline would detail the most extreme, the largest suicide bomging, the Israeli offense inflicting the most casualties and so on. It is hard to catch the normal. -- BL
As an outsider, I think either present a longer timeline, or present none at all. (however, this might be hard to do without pissing anyone off) A short timeline of just 2002 doesn't seem worth having here.
I would not consider this to be POV. As stated, this would be a description of violent events, but if that were a consideration for pages to be kept or not many pages would not be in Wiki. I disagree with the NPOV header on this page. Ntm 09:28, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Where is Jewish migration in this timeline? All it says is when it was stoped but never says when it started! "Thank God Marne had lunch or she's eat ur hair."-Marne's Dad. "Period...In your pants"-Marne's dumb ass Zain 14:58, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I am removing the POV tags from articles related to the Arab-Israeli conflict which no longer have active editorial and Talk disputes. If someone has a any further problems not already covered in Talk then by all means restore the tag but please start a new section and bring forth your concerns for consensus building. These perpetual NPOV tags are unreasonable.-- AladdinSE 08:06, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)
I moved them from Israeli-Palestinian_conflict_external_references to Talk:Timeline of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict/references. They are not supposed to be a separate article. bogdan 18:49, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I placed in some information on the Jewish immigration to Palestine, I put down the first two Aliyah's, and they were deleted? I think this is fairly criticial information to understanding this conflict, it is the foundation of this conflict, it provides context to the conflict. Reading this timeline, you wouldn't even know that Jews immigrated to Palestine in the first place?
The Aliyah's are the roots of this conflict started: At first, it was localized conflicts between Jewish immigrant groups, and Arabs over small plots of land.
Leaving this stuff out is just deliberatly cutting out important facts about this conflict for people's understanding. It's not biased one way or another, it's just explaining how these two people ended up living side by side in the first place. That's fairly important, no?
A student of history 22:03, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Also, it seems this page suffers from systematic bias. Israeli actions are always placed in context and qualified, providing some background information as to "why" such action was taken, while Arab ones are not. Arab attrocities are described, while Israeli ones are glossed over or omitted. It's not acceptable from a NPOV. I'm not saying this timeline shouldn't provide detail about actions and war crimes, or "terrorism", but it should be at least balanced.
from Pink: The statement "There had been a continuous Jewish presence in the Holy Land since Biblical times, as well as smaller waves of immigration throughout history" really needs a reference. So does "At that time, the Jewish presence in Palestine was roughly 6% of the total population, the rest consisting of Arabs (90% of whom were Muslim, 10% Christian)" and "Judaism had been the predominant religion in Jerusalem, and from the 1870s on, the city again maintains a Jewish majority." In addition, the second statement needs explanation: "at that time" should be defined with a date or time period. I must agree with others who have raised concerns over bias in this article and concur with them and others who have stated that this is not encyclopedia-worthy material. I am sorry that I am not able at this time to do muhc about it. 66.112.51.45 ( talk) 19:08, 28 April 2008 (UTC)Pink
1) Deir Yassin background: I have no problem providing background information for events like this, AS LONG AS IT IS BALANCED. Meaning, it is unbalanced, and slanted to provide critical background information to give sympathetic context to Israeli actions but refuse to do the same for Arab actions. So we either remain consistent and provide reasoning for Arab acts as well, or we don't do it for either. (willing to let this go)
2) The unnecessary description of the Hadassah massacre. Why provide such a level of description for this and not for any massacres of Arabs? It seems to me this would bias the reader, making Israeli tragedies seems more personal, tragic and barbaric, while not giving the same level of description to massacres of Arabs. This is bias, we don't need a "play by play" when Jews are massacred if we're not going to give the same consideration to Arab tragedies.
3) Causes of the exodus. I think we have a serious fundamental difference of opinion. You claim something is a fact, I claim it is not. You can post a dozen sources which agree with you, I could get a dozen sources to agree with me, hence the DISPUTE! It is not a fact, if you read Morris for example, his research would seriously contend that claim. I suggest we simply state that refugees were created, add that the causes/reasons for the exodus are debated, and link to the "palestinian exodus" page. But your edit very clearly gives favour to one POV, and this timeline shouldn't contain full arguments/descriptions, it should only "note" important events. In other words, I don't simply want to "add on" to what you've written, because then we would go back and forth and end up with an entry way, way too long for this timeline. In order to explain even in basic detail the theories for the exodus and the causes of it, the entry would end up being far too long. As such, I don't see any point in even getting into it. It's not that I want to "omit facts", it's precisely because I DON'T want to omit anything, that I don't want to get into the details of the exodus on this timeline. Your edit, no offense, is over-simplistic, obviously sympathetic towards pro-Israeli theories and opinions, and omits a great deal. This timeline shouldn't include an argument about the exodus, it should simply state that there was an exodus, and then provide a link to the page where the reader can fill himself in. Can we agree?
4) Israeli casualties in the '50s with Egypt. If we're going to start listing all these Israeli casualties, we need to list all the Egyptian/Palestinian casualties as well for this period as well. Otherwise, the timeline cherry picks information. But as I've said before, this timeline should only be a list of "major/notable/important" events, not every damn minor skirmish or raid. So for the sake of balance, we either list all the casualties on both sides, or agree that this is trivial information not suitable for this timeline.
5) Perhaps you didn't notice this, but I think Arafat's appointed to Chairman of the PLO in '69, and the creation of Hamas in '87 are important to have on the timeline. (resolved)
6) Camp David, the reason why I don't want to get into details here is again, this timeline is not a page for long arguments and lots of details. Your edit cherry picks information as well, for the sake of balance I would want to add that the WB would be chopped into two sections, the settlements would remain under Israeli authority, Israel would retain control over resources and borders...... I could go on and on. So you see the uselessness of doing so on this page? I feel this page should only note that negotiations took place, and the reasons for the collapse are disputed, because they are. Many people blame Arafat, but many others place more blame on the Americans and Israeli's. Hence, disputed or controversial. It is simply not a "fact" that Arafat single-handedly scuttled a generous offer, that is one narrow POV.
7) You statistics for the second intifada are rubbish:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3694350.stm http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=336075 http://hrw.org/wr2k6/pdf/israelopt.pdf http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/israel2/israel0402-02.htm http://hrw.org/reports/2005/iopt0605/iopt0605text.pdf#search=%22civilians%20killed%20second%20intifada%22
But I'm not going to post these sources or their numbers, claiming they are "facts" because your sources obviously dispute them. Hence, we should list total casualty figures, making it clear they encompass both civilian and combatant deaths, and note that the exact figures of civilians/combatants are disputed or difficult to calculate. But your edit clearly implies that Palestinian civilian deaths are infrequent and Israel lacks any culpability, which is only one POV.
I hope we can work this out to achieve a NEUTRAL telling of MAJOR events. Not one which depicts aggressive Arabs and a reactionary Israel.
Ensure a NPOV is not simply a matter of stating facts. Stating "facts" is only one part of it. Choosing which facts to present, and which to omit, providing context and choice of language are all even more important. So we shouldn't think in terms of "just stating facts", Mitchell Bard and Norman Finkelstein both state many facts, often the same facts, but they portray completely different versions of events. You see where I'm going with this?
A student of history 02:28, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
This timeline is not a place to list every goddamn suicide bombing or Israeli casualty. Why? Because then for the sake of being balanced and NEUTRAL, we would have to do the same for Arab and Palestinian casualties. This timeline is a place to list "major" or "notable" events. So just as I'm not going to start listing all the incidents where Israeli air strikes killed Palestinian civilians, we shouldn't be listing all these incidents of suicide bombings. It's appropriate to note that they are taking place, list some of the big ones, and ones which had a significant impact/effect, otherwise you're just cherry picking.
All I want to do is list events that happened, and provide some statistics. That is what a timeline is for, not a battle-ground of conflicting arguments and statistics. I'm trying to keep this neutral, and you insist on inserting an unbalanced presentation of facts to favour Israel, there is no doubt about it. You want to give human character to, and describe Jewish victims, but you refuse to do the same for Arabs. That is SYSTEMATIC BIAS!
As well, this timeline very clearly gives the impression that "Arabs act", "Israel reacts". That is one POV, and it is most definitely not neutral, some people may regard this as the "truth", but there are a great many people who would argue against it. I think something needs to be done about it. And I don't care who writes it, we're not using the word "terrorist" here.
A student of history 16:55, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Here are some excerpts from your talk page. Sorry you felt that way. I did not mean to shed more information on Palestinian acts of terror against Israelis. I remember not writing additional info for Qibya, because there was tons of information on the events and background information that I thought it would be better for the reader to actually click the link and learn from there. In regards to the offer Arafat declined to accept, everything I had written was true, and before I edited it, that line was almost exactly the same except it said "over 95% of the West Bank" rather than "97% of the West Bank". I would also like to assure you, my knowledge of history is quite advanced, and I am currently studying history and political science in university. Also, rather than, "Jewish immigration begins" is fairly incorrect, as Jews have maintained a presence and have been immigrating to the Land of Israel even before the birth of Muhammad. However, I do see relevance to include the Aliyot (plural of Aliyah). I am glad we can come to terms and edit together. Keep in touch. Thanks. --Shamir1 22:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I only included any 'justification' you mentioned if the main article does indeed say so. And as for that Gaza disengagement, those words are not mine, but were part of the article long before I got to it. I do appreciate the communication we are having, though. --Shamir1 05:43, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
No one will ever find a statement clearly unbiased. So while you may still have that feeling, I get messages thanking me for clean-up effort of POV. I also hear of complaints of people unable to add information to the Palestinian exodus article, which is unarguably POV to the max. (I, by the way, have yet to even touch the artice). So if you think some of the events have some bias, well, I cannot say any of it is not true. My stance is already controversial, as an Iranian-American who supports Israel. Believe me, I am trying to clean up the article to the best of my ability. Thanks. --Shamir1 05:51, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
It appears to me that you insist on removing any slightest possibility of sympathy for Israel, even when it is truth. That link is the 1st or 2nd resource when you Google Palestinian Refugees, and is thus very reliable. I have included aspects on both sides. I removed a statement that mentioned an attack was done in response to Deir Yassin. That is not true. It does not say that anywhere.
You cannot just remove something because you feel it is a "justification". I state what each groups motives were, and that information is written in the main article. Secondly it is not just Jewish Virtual Library but MANY MANY sources. and that is not the point. The point is that the Palestinians were encouraged to leave by their leaders, and their are quotes to support that on that page. Quotes are not written by the author you mentioned, and therefore bear no POV. I really do not see what you are doing anymore. You are removing key information. And as for the East Jer offer, it is a fact and not debated and I have read it many times before hand and I stress it was written in this timeline long before I touched it. So please, for both of our edits, let that date be. Thanks. --Shamir1 21:18, 25 August 2006 (UTC) You are NOT getting it. All you keep saying is I am putting an Israeli excuse. I am not. I write that it is a claim, and ALL these claims are WRITTEN IN THE MAIN ARTICLE. Truth. I did not write any for Arab ones because they DID NOT EXIST, not because of POV. When it comes to Palestinian refugees, you do not just put a period. It is a serious and vital part of the history and its cause is just as important. That again is NOT a matter of opinion. There are numerous sources to show the reasons of their leaving, with many quotations of Arab leaders showing encouragement. So don't give me this baloney that I am making up my own opinion, because it is not my opinion, it is a historical fact. --Shamir1 01:33, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
All I have done is add motives and causes. Please stop arguing with the truth, none of any of those sources are fraud. It seems to me that you are pushing your own POV when removing sourced material. There are even quotes from Palestinians who acknowledge leaving for those reasons, and besides that, ALL REASONS ARE GIVEN SPACE. It states clearly that many left for avoidance of crossfire, anticipation of war, and expulsion. All claims were given consideration and all have evidence to back it up. For you to just dismiss these facts and say it's biased, it's biased, is RIDICULOUS. Do your research. It is known how much land was offered to Arafat ALL OVER THE INTERNET. IT IS NOT DISPUTED. THAT IS WHY, again, IT WAS WRITTEN HERE ON WIKIPEDIA BEFORE EITHER OF US TOUCHED IT. Listen, stop this nonsense about every damn source being biased. There are plenty of resources to show each claim. To say that all these very many quotes by Arab leader and Arab refugees themselves are all wrong, yeah, ok. I really have been nice and have taken all your edits into consideration. Facts are facts, whether you think they may support one side or not, a fact is a fact. STOP REMOVING SOURCED, RELEVANT, AND TRUE INFORMATION. --Shamir1 01:52, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
All sources I have added are reliable. Secondly, the Camp David Summit is not a debate. Even in the main article the major debate is the reason why Arafat declined to accept the offer, FEEL FREE TO ADD IT. I do not see why we should disregard the basic and primary aspects of the offer. And as for the Palestinian refs, many sources say they had all been willing to leave, but I am not writing that. I am writing each reason, that takes in both sides. Some left because of this, some because of that. The big deal is not the language it is in, but that the fact is included. I can even find more sources if you want. If, after the reason for their leaving, you wish to include that their reasons are controversial, fine; but I do not like to disregard actual essential parts of history. Thanks.
oh please, i can easily say your sources are POV, but unlike you, I do not remove sourced and relevant material. Human Rights Watch has been known to have a strong anti-Israel bias, once even criticizing Israel for a massacre that never took place! I am keeping it, because it is a source and deserves a spot on the timeline. I am convinced that it is you who keeps pushing POV every chance you get, not me. You try to add your own little justifications as well, so shove it. --Shamir1 21:12, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't care what you think you can "see". It doesnt change the fact that I think you are wrong and misunderstand what information should be included. I think you should delete the fact that al-Qaeda attacked Americans in the WTC and Pentagon, it may evoke some pro-American sympathy. --Shamir1 21:22, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
There is one little problem pertaining to POV. When it comes to Camp David, that sovereignty thing is definitely POV. Nothing even close to it is mentioned. Now while I am sure you can find something on the Internet that will say something like that, obviously it was not enough of a 'biggy' to be in the timeline, nor the opinion of whether it would be sovereignty or not, nor the opinions of others (majority blame Arafat, even Clayton Swisher blames both). Luckily, I think we are close to the final status of our edits. =) --Shamir1 03:42, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
My problem with this timeline, regardless of who created certain entries, whether it was shamir1 or not, is that many of these entries display a qualitative and quantitative bias in favour of pro-israeli POV's. The information here may be true and sourced, that is not the issue I raise. The point I'm making is that when facts are presented in such a way (facts as they may be) that they quantitatively and qualitatively promote one POV over others, this is not NPOV.
1) Systematic bias, quantitative and qualitative differences in use of facts:
a) Providing detail of Jewish deaths (which may be facts), evoking sympathy and compassion, while relegating Arab deaths to mere statistics. b) Cherry picking facts and events in such a way to make it appear that the Arabs are always the aggressors, and Israel always the one who "reacts". c) Providing casualty statistics for Israeli's for periods of time (which may be factual), while ignoring Arab deaths for that same period. d) Providing context for Israeli actions to provide reasoning for them (which may be facts), while refusing to do the same for Arab actions.
2) Minor and trivial events:
This should not be a place to list every suicide bombing or air strike. Those are not major or notable events. So for the period of the second intifada (for example) there is no need to make an entry for dozens of suicide bombings, or dozens of israeli air strikes that killed civilians. Unless an event had a "notable" impact on the conflict, it shouldn't be here.
3)
This timeline SHOULD NOT BE A BATTLEGROUND for arguments, contradictory statistics, pov's and so forth. That is what more specific articles are for, and where all the different POV's can be expressed, conflicting statistics presented and arguments made. But on this "TIMELINE OF NOTABLE EVENTS" it should only be stated that an event took place, (ie. Camp David Summit), because this is simply not the place to get into the details and arguments surrounding it, that would take up far too much space and make for a needlessly complex timeline.
Shamir1 and I have differing opinions on the conflict, which is understandable. I am seeking a neutral timeline, which hopefully, does not give portray either actor to be the one who acts or reacts, because that is a subject of debate.
A student of history 21:34, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I am seeking to create a fair and neutral article. I dont see why A student in history removes material that he acknowledges is true and then accuses me of POV. That is ridiculous. 1) Hadassah massacre has been shortened
2) The wave of infiltrations is very important, as it lead up to a particular event and the casualties of deaths are undoubtably essential
3) a. The Six-Day War is a very complex war, as any war, and I am not sure if the amount of troops Iraq sent is really necessary in the timeline b. Arguably, the people in the West Bank and Gaza could be considered Jordanians and Egyptians, respectively. Arabs would be a better more politically correct term. Point still comes across.
4) Operation Litani. The words "terrorist attacks" were used before our editing, taking them out would not only be POV but it would flush the definition of terrorism down the toilet. It very much annoys me when a user removes something that had been on Wikipedia so long before.
5) Operation Peace for Galilee - artillery attacks were launched by the PLO, it was also written before, do your research, read the article
6) Sabra and Shatila. I will keep that almost all were civilians.
7) Camp David 2000 Summit - come on! A student in history has been removing actual very important, noteworthy information that has been written here (again) long before I or him touched it. The original timeline said over 95% of the West Bank, and included the rest which I keep and I let him get away with his over 90%. He has also added his POV to make it sound like some sort of bad deal, although the majority (including many Palestinians) blame Arafat (which I do not include). Mr. student, please stop with this one, it's just really not fair.
8) Passover massacre shortened.
9) West Bank Wall put in. When I reverted the page it was not included last time, but it definitely should be.
10) These suicide bombings hit international headlines and many broke cease-fires. Each one of them has an impact on the government and people of Israel. I dont see why it would be "minor" when Wikipedia devotes an entire article to it, and world leaders make speeches specifically mentioning the attack.
11) 2000-2006. The source is baloney, and known for cracking up shit. It is from the people of wwww.whatreallyhappened.com. I am not saying that is your fault, just the site is illegitimate.
12) Operation Summer Rains. I agree that casualties should be listed but it can change everyday and probably should not be on the timeline until the operation/conflict has ended. Not a matter of POV, each death toll can rise (or even decline if they find that less had died, like in Houla).
13) I really do not believe that is a good link (ifamericans) for people (not because of POV) but I guess I will let it in.
-- Shamir1 05:27, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
i have changed my stance when it comes to that site. I do believe the pro-Pal link should very well be included. -- Shamir1 06:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
1) The details of the Hadassah massacre are unecessary. It is cherry picking to describe them in detail, and then ignore or refuse similar details for say Qibya or Kafr Kassem. For these events I simply listed the number of Arab deaths, and that's all. I don't see the need to give a play by play of Hadassah. The way it is now looks absolutely identical to the detail given to massacres of Arabs, that to me is neutral. It does not emphasize one over the other.
2) Yes, the wave of infiltrations is important. I agree that it should be included, however, I do not agree to listing only Israeli casualties. Arabs died too, including civilians living in the Sinai. Including only Israeli casualties is clearly cherry picking, that is not "fair" or "neutral" at all. So we either find casualty stats for both, including civilians, or we leave the statistics alone here. Fair enough?
3) It's fine with me if you want to call them "Arabs" instead of "Palestinians". Just FYI, if you read books such as Tom Segev's "One Palestine Complete", or Moshe Dayan's autobiography, you will find that the term "Palestinian" had been used to describe Arabs living in Palestine since before the British Mandate, but it doesn't matter. But with the details (ie. troop numbers) we should leave that for the main article.
4) I don't care who wrote it or how long it's been there. What does that matter? The point is, not all these violations were terrorist attacks. Many of them were attacks against the IDF, which ARGUABLY is not terrorism, it is a POV.
5) During the 11 months cease-fire preceding the war, there were no artillery attacks that you speak of. These preceded the cease-fire which came into effecct in 1981. During the cease-fire, along the Israeli-lebanon border, the PLO actually did refrain from such activity, do YOUR research.
6) Agreed.
7) See that's the point about this entry, inserting only the information you want makes it sound like a "good deal", which is a POV. The information I inserted does make it sound like a bad deal, which is another POV. Which is why I don't want to include any of these details and just leave them for the main page, because we can't cherry pick info here to support our views. You obviously think Camp David was a good deal for Arafat, I obviously disagree. So we should just leave our opinions out of it all together, and simply state that the summit took place, and Arafat rejected the proposal. Deal?
8) Agreed.
9) Thank you.
10) I know that some of these make international headlines, but so do Israeli strikes into Gaza and the WB. Does that mean I should include all of them? As I said, unless they have a significant or notable impact on the conflict, it shouldn't be here. Otherwise, you'll insert entries for 50 suicide bombings, and I'll insert entries to 50 Israeli air strikes and bombardments. And yet, it will all be relatively pointless and trivial information.
How about this: You put in something like 5-6 of the most notable suicide bombings, and I insert some of the more notable Israeli strikes? That way the timeline is still balanced, and readers get the impression. However, we keep the detail the same in both and neither of us write "in response to", because that is a POV. Is that acceptable?
11) Are you talking about www.ifamericansonlyknew.org? Yeah, well that site's not "baloney" but it is very biased, just as biased as www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org, (that's why I chose it) I would say that site is "baloney" too. The difference between the stats and numbers on those sites really shows how clearly biased they both are. If you use the "library" as a source, I get to use this one. Or we could agree to both use slightly more credible, fair sources. See, this is just our opposite opinions comming into play. But I'm not going to compare either of them to crackshit like "whatreallyhappened.com".
12) Good point, agreed.
13) I think, at the bottom under "external links", we should create two clearly seperate categories. One under a "pro-Israeli" heading, and another under a "pro-Palestinian" heading. It should be made clear at the outset which site adhere's to which POV. This way, we don't have to argue about excluding sites or not, because it is clearly established which opinion they favour to begin with... agreed?
A student of history 17:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
1) The siege was very important, no excuse to take it out 2) Hadassah massacre. It is short, just mentions they were not ordinary civilians, and mentions that road attacks did not end. 3) While it is debated how many Palestinians left for each reason, it is agreed that there were different reasons among them. 4) The infiltrations are vital, like you said. The Wikipedia article did not mention ANY Palestinian casualties, let alone civilians. It's a fact, it's not POV, it's important. 5) a. Six-Day War edited and ordered. b. I am not going to say Iraq sent a little, Egypt sent a lot, Syria sent a little, Yemen sent this much,... 6) Operation Entebbe edited. 7) So soldiers are not innocent? Who says an unprovoked attack on innocent people and soldiers is not terrorist. Wikipedia doesnt think so. They included this word here without any problem. 8) Peace for Galilee. Did my research. There were numerous attacks including artillery. "Israeli strikes and commando raids were unable to stem the growth of this PLO army. The situation in the Galilee became intolerable as the frequency of attacks forced thousands of residents to flee their homes or to spend large amounts of time in bomb shelters. Israel was not prepared to wait for more deadly attacks to be launched against its civilian population before acting against the terrorists.
The final provocation occurred in June 1982 when a Palestinian terrorist group led by Abu Nidal attempted to assassinate Israel's Ambassador to Great Britain, Shlomo Argov. The IDF subsequently attacked Lebanon again on June 4-5, 1982. The PLO responded with a massive artillery and mortar attack on the Israeli population of the Galilee. On June 6, the IDF moved into Lebanon to drive out the terrorists in "Operation Peace for Galilee."
Wikipedia also includes it in the first paragraph! No POV there.
9) I worded the Afula bombing this way because there have been suicide bombings against Israel before. It is really the same point but worded more correctly.
10) Camp David Summit. Despite the fact that YOU think it was a bad deal apparently, the majority do not. That is irrelevant anyway, because neither opinion is added to begin with. When it comes to this one, let it be how it has always been written before you. Simple/basic/principle parts of the agreement. You also cannot argue when it comes to the counter-offer. Let it be.
11) Wait, you think it is wrong to include what I include but okay to include Palestinian homes from anti-Israel sources? Amnesty International is biased, check the main article. We are not talking about damage to infrasture or how much it took to rebuild bombed cities, buildings,...
12) Unil disengagement. Many Bedouin were evacuated as they are largely pro-Israel. See Arad for some info.
13) I have no problem with the external links (sorry about the ifamericans site, I confused it with another of a similar name, it stands). First of all, Jewish Virtual Library is not baloney and is deemed very reliable, and pops up as the first or one of the first in a Google search for many different topics. Secondly, I am afraid we might run into some trouble by naming a site pro this or that. I thought it might be better to just write the name of the site, but the edits stand and I'll let it.
Thanks. -- Shamir1 20:53, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
All my edits were fair. Here are some explanations for my additional edits.
1) The siege of Jerusalem was important, STOP.
2) Hadassah massacre. Shortened just to get the gist of who the civilians were, and what they were doing. It is short, don't complain.
3) Palestinian refugees. a. While it is debated how many left and for each cause, it is agreed that different Palestinians left for different reasons. I just don't see your reason for removing it. No stats are given for any of the reasons, nor opinions on other side. It is fair. b. The unfavoring book I am reading calls the people there in that time "Palestinian Arabs," so I will keep the word Palestinian. Do not exaggerate and say "millions". Besides the fact that it sounds like something you read on an advertisement, the population was not even 2 million, which would not account for the multiple of the word "millions". We are not counting all the ones there to say Israel assumed control of this many of them, because ALL of them in the WB and Gaza were now under Israeli rule. Also, you cannot say they come under "military occupation." They were all offered citizenship, and it would be just the same like saying Tel Aviv was under military occupation. It was just another part of Israel then. The book says this: "And so Israel...found itself governing Palestinian Arabs in [the West Bank and Gaza] whose allies were sworn enemies of the Jewish state." The word governing is much more neutral and correct.
4) Infiltrations existed only on the Palestinian side. The Wikipedia article (I will repeat) did not mention ANYTHING about any Palestinians killed because of it. It lead up to an action and should stay put.
5) Six-Day War. If Iraq sends a small force, I am not going to sit there and have written well Egypt sent a lot and Syria sent this much and Jordan blah blah blah. The point is the combined forces.
6) Operation Entebbe. I edited the last sentence, no biggy.
7) Are you that sick to disagree with even the fair and mighty Wikipedia to rename terrorist attacks as skirmishes? Ugh.
8) Added some short, interesting details of the impact of the Israel-Egypt peace.
9) I explained the artillery attacks on N Israel, on my previous comment, read that. Besides it was already on the timeline before my edit.
10) While some claim Israel was responsible somehow for Sabra and Shatila, it is established that no Israeli soldier was directly involved in fighting in the massacre. They were not present.
11) I explained my very minor Afula bombing edit earlier. More correct words.
12) In addition to my previous comment, it is terribly wrong of you to remove information that is true and principle and has lived on this timeline forever. You say you think it was a bad deal, well keep your POV aside. Besides the fact that most do not, it doesnt MATTER. Neither opinion is showed but the FACTS which has in short been written here deserve to stay.
13) When it comes to bombings, raids, attacks, let's put it this way. For a lot of them not only did it reach international headlines but world leaders took the time to mention (mostly condemn) the action. No president comes out to make a speech about a 'minor' incident. So here is how we will have it for this: If Wikipedia has the main article, we can add it, and you can add what you said.
14) Passover massacre. What is up with that? It is short. Just let it be.
15) Battle of Jenin. Added most were militants and kept civilian number. No argument.
16) Your adding of the demolition just yells hypocrite. It really does not belong. Find a stat that mentions the harm and damage done to Israeli cities.
17) Basically it, added Bedouin issue too. You can see on Arad, Israel.
-- Shamir1 05:21, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
First, this is not supposed to be a collection of random acts of violence. I noticed many, many suicide bombing incidents have been added here, which seems odd and inappropriate, considering the context. This is supposed to be merely a timeline noting important events in this conflict, such as wars, peace conferences, major policy decisions...... and so on. (Take a look at timelines on other pages or encyclopedia's, they list only MAJOR events, not trivial acts of violence) Not a history of suicide bombings. If we're going to list all these suicide bombings, should we justly list every Israeli air strike or bombardment? I think that in order to maintain a NPOV, we would have to, thus this "timeline" degenerates into a casualty list.
Events like the Lod airport massacre, ma'alot, munich and so forth should very well stay... but do we really need a list of every explosion during the intifada's? I suppose what bothers me the most is the fact that while Palestinian violence is emphasized here, Israeli violence is relegated and ignored. This so-called "timeline" is pathetic at best. No NPOV at all.
The bias here is unacceptable. Arab deaths are dealt with as figures and numbers and often completely ignored (see 1950-1954 Egyptian-Israeli border clashes), Jewish deaths get a whole write up. Israeli actions are put in proper context, Arab ones are not given that consideration, giving justification and background for Israeli actions, while making it appear as though Arab ones are mindless. "Facts" are cherry picked from pro-Israeli sources (which may be acceptable if we allowed "facts" from pro-Arab sources in alongside, but then again, turning this "timeline" into a battleground for arguments).
Just because something makes headlines doesn't mean it belongs here, some users (Shamir1) want to turn this page into a collection of every wrong done to Israel by an Arab.
One editor here feels that Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are too "biased" to be used, but feels free to use www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org, claiming this is more "neutral".
The quality of this page is so far from acceptable.
A student of history 23:25, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Your comments on this board, and your user page make it patently obvious that you have no sense of neutrality whatsoever on this issue. None whatsoever... You are so far to one side that you see neutrality as biased.
You want to create a timeline which portrays Israeli actions as always defensive, justified and retaliatory, because you believe this to be the "truth", well that is simply one POV, you just don't see this.
With regards to your "well sourced information" about the Palestinian exodus, you have very cleary worded the phrase to emphasize the voluntary fleeing theory and orders from the AHC (a widely discreditted theory I might add) over others, then you cherry pick sources to back up that POV.
If I wrote a bunch of information here all about an ethnic cleansing during the '48 war, and then cited some internet sources of a pro-pal leaning, wouldn't you consider it just gibbrish?
A student of history 03:52, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
1: It is not a fact that Jerusalem maintained a Jewish majority since 1870's, I've read conflicting accounts of this, all from credible texts and sources.
2: It is not a fact that the British were warned prior to the bombing of the King David Hotel in '46. I've read books supporting this view point, and I've read scholars who dismiss it, as you all know, the British maintain they were never warned. It's a "he said, she said" really, not a "fact".
3: Minor point, but one somebody keeps getting wrong, Israel was declared by Ben-Gurion on May 14th, not 7th.
May 14th, 1947. A student of history
4: The wording of the Palestinian exodus event is unacceptable. The "orders from AHC" theory is marginal, discreditted and should not be presented in such a way as to emphasize it, or convey the notion that it was a major factor. Further more, I don't believe the reasons for the exodus are necessary on this timeline, otherwise it will become a battleground and the entry will be far longer than is appropriate for a timeline. If readers wish to learn more about it, and read about all the conflicting claims, they can read the main article. You are POV pushing, hard, leaving the arguments out is entirely neutral and you know it.
5: About the Six-Days War. Firstly, it has been widely documented, exposed, and accepted that the Israeli housing ministry, Knesset members and Cabinet members (in particular Ariel Sharon) were very active in building the settlements and getting the project going. This is an established fact, no longer hidden, Ha'aretz had some extensive coverage of it last year. Secondly, as a result of the war, the Palestinians in Gaza and the WB came under occupation, this is also not in dispute, I can cite UN sources, US State-Department sources, ICJ rulings... anything you want. Disputing this is simply absurd.
6: It is a fact, that during the ceasefire before the '82 invasion of lebanon, the PLO refrained from cross-border activity between Lebanon and Israel. The attacks you speak of came in response to Israeli actions. The casus belli was the assasination attempt.
7: Camp David, the "offered 95% of WB"... is simply not factual. Second, it is cherry picking. If we add this "detail", then for the sake of balance I would want to include many other facets of those negotiations, such as the carving up of the WB by Israeli security zones and roads... But for the sake of neutrality, we should both avoid all these pitfalls.
8: The beginnings of the Gaza-israeli "conflict" are disputed. Some say it began with the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit, others say it began with the kidnapping of Osama and Mustafa Muamar. Again, we should leave these arguments for the main article, and not a timeline, which is not meant to be a battleground.
9: The very fact that some of you want to include these "conceptwizard.com" pages as references is absolute proof of your POV pushing. If we're going to include asinine links like this, then we should demarcate a "pro-Palestinian" section and a "pro-Israeli" section, so that people understand that these pages are simply not intended to be neutral, which they are not.
One last comment about this page. This is not, I repeat is not supposed to be, nor will I allow it to turn into, a list of terrorist attacks against Israel. I do not insert every airstrike or shelling of Gaza or the WB because these are not major events in this history of the conflict, even if they kill 10 or 20 civilians. I can think of a dozen such incidents off the top of my head, but I'm not going to write them up here, because they simply don't belong. Wars, peace conferences, major policy shifts, annexations, major massacres/attrocities perhaps (Munich, Qibya)... these are notable events that belong on a timeline, not petty incidents of violence on either side. Shamir, you need to understand that. You don't seem to get what is appropriate for a timeline and what is not, I suggest you check out Brittanica's timeline's.
Shamir, please respond to these points A student of history 05:36, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
A student in history, what is all this "this isn't a fact" "that isn't a fact" crap. Are you a fan of conspiracy theories? You tell me about promoting "widely discreditted theories" while you are reading Noam Chomsky's work. What a comedian. -- Shamir1 01:25, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to start over here on the left again... But as I said, if you want to claim my edits are falso, then get a primary or credible source to back it up. But you should be aware of your own bias. A student of history
Shamir, Amoruso... it's this simple. If you claim something is a "fact", ie. warnings of bombs in the King David Hotel incident, or the AHC orders to flee, then get credible, preferably primary sources to prove it. A student of history
As I said, all of your revisions, adding in completely unsourced POV's is unacceptable. If you claim something is a "fact", get a primary source, or a non-partisan credible one. You've not done that, so I'm removing these POV's. It's not vandalism, it's enforcing the NPOV policy. It's just this simple, if you claim it's a "fact", you should have no problem getting a good source for it. **note, Mitchell Bard is not a reliable, credible, objective source anymore than, say, Norman Finkelstein is. Secondary sources which offer OPINION is not a verifiable "fact", unless they cite primary material. So stop putting in meaningly POV's. If you can get a primary source for it, fine, otherwise, it's not a fact, it's an opinion. Do you understand how this works now? I'll source anything you want me to, I would only expect that serious students of history should want reliable sources to be used. I don't know about you, but I'm big on getting good, primary sources. If you want me to get a source for something I consider to be a "fact", I will do so. But I expect the same consideration from you. Afterall, this is "supposed" to be an encyclopedia "facts", not opinions or points of view.
ex. The West Bank is in fact, occupied territory. This is a fact, because the US State Department, Israeli Supreme Court, Israeli Prime Ministers, UN, ICJ, every encyclopedia out there... and others, have asserted it to be so. You might be of the opinion that it is "disputed" territory, but in fact, according to any and all political and legal bodies that matter, it is occupied. That is a fact. A student of history 20:14, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
1) Who says Lehi attacked Arab civilians?
2) King David Hotel - "A young woman telephoned the British with a warning to leave the building. The British paid no attention."
Source? Secondary or Primary? I've read a couple books on this particular incident, one arguing they did, in fact, make the call. Thurston Clark I think. But he had no primary, documentary evidence, and he pointed out in his argument that the British maintain, to this day, that they never received a call. No primary documentation (at best, contradictory testimony) = no "fact" about the matter. Only conflicting reports. A student of history
3) Deir Yassin - Hazam Nusseibi, who worked for the Palestine Broadcasting Service in 1948, admitted being told by Hussein Khalidi, a Palestinian Arab leader, to fabricate the atrocity claims. Abu Mahmud, a Deir Yassin resident in 1948 told Khalidi "there was no rape," but Khalidi replied, "We have to say this, so the Arab armies will come to liberate Palestine from the Jews." Nusseibeh told the BBC 50 years later, "This was our biggest mistake. We did not realize how our people would react. As soon as they heard that women had been raped at Deir Yassin, Palestinians fled in terror."[14]
4) Arab-Israeli War - not even going to get into it. its well-known, admitted by Arabs, and on wikipedia.
5) Israel never had an official settlement "program". The fact that some settled or resettled in land now part of Israel is written.
6) Palestinian Arabs had been "occupied", it infers that they werent beforehand besides the fact that it is disputed whether they are occupied today. Unlike Egypt, social insurance was available under Israeli rule. Besides it would be WP:POINT.
7) Peace for Galilee - true statement. It was an attack on civilians and a concern.
8) Qana is not even close to notable in this conflict
9) Camp David - stop. It is true, true, true, true, true. Stop with the conspiracies made up later on.
10) West Bank Wall - written fine, stat there, nothing wrong.
11) 3,723 Palestinians and 1009 . These are the numbers I see. In addition I have sources going in to depth about how many civilians, whose responsibility, and who endangered who but I am sure you dont want me to add it.
12) You can't say this many Palestinian homes were demolished when you dont mention, a) the amount that were built illegally, b) the amount illegally storing arms/rockets/weapons, c) the amount providing cover for terrorists, d) the amount abandoned, e) without any mention of the cost or amount of damage on Israeli infrasture.
13) Gaza beach blast - Read the sources. Even Human rights watch took back their stance. the fact that someone says an investigation (there were numerous ones) was "whitewash" does not change the fact it was not their responsibility. its like finding a site that would say water isnt that good for you, im sure its out there.
13) Um excuse me, I added the Gaza counter-offensive, I read the article, i saw the news. that removing is pure POV.
14) Operation Summer Rains - that was already written on wikipedia. the op didnt come out of nowhere, we have to say what instigated it.
15) "Others blame the constant and indefinite Israeli closures of key border crossings, such as those at Karni and Rafah, preventing produce from being exported, and preventing emergency aid from getting to the Palestinians." Not true. They have jurisdiction and full control of their border with Egypt, where Rafah is.
16) Why would you delete "Israeli aid". I'm hoping that was a mistake, otherwise you're an idiot. read every news site out there. in fact, theyve spent more money on aid than arab states. -- Shamir1 03:21, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
PS - This just in the paper! Calling Norman Finkelstein "notorious" and saying, "Dr. Norman Finkelstein, whose work has been condemned by the scholarly community as 'the hate campaign of a zealot,' for its 'indifference to historical facts' ... Unable to get tenure at universities, Finkelstein has also been rejected by the Princeton faculty, where he trained for his Ph.D. Finkelstein's mentor, Noam Chomsky, remarked that he 'literally could not get the faculty to read his thesis or to come to his thesis's defense [and] they will not even write a letter for him saying that he was student.'" Doesn't sound too reliable to me.
A student of history 06:09, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I will use two examples here of what I am talking about.
1) "Occupied" vs. "Dispute" territory. You may be of the opinion that they are not "occupied", certain legal scholars may be of the opinion that they are no "occupied", but you, and they, don't matter. According to the UN security council, UN general assembly, US government, Israeli government, International Court of Justice and Israeli supreme court, they are "occupied" territories, not "disputed". Ipso facto, they are "occupied". You may have a different interpretation, some prof. somewhere may have a different interpretation, but that doesn't matter. According to any and all relevent legal and political bodies, they are, in fact, occupied. So that is a fact. Just like Hezbollah is a terrorist organization is a fact. Why? Because you go to any political or legal body that matters, (ie. all of the above mentioned) and they state, as a fact, Hezbollah is a terrorist organization. It might be the "opinion" of some Lebanese legal scholar that they are not, but his opinion doesn't matter. Do you understand? This is a fact. If you insist, which you have every right to do, I will get a source from every one of the organizations I mentioned above testifying to the fact that they consider the territories occupied.
2) Rafah crossing is still de facto controlled by Israel. Although on-the-ground soldiers are PA and Egyptian instead of Israeli, Israel retains sovereign (ie. final word) control over it. They have excercised this control recently. EU "observers" do not decide when it closes, they are observers, they have no absolute authority. The links I provided don't discuss the Karni crossing, because we both know that Israel closes this key crossing almost all day, every day, there are hundreds of reports and stories I could get for this one if you want to talk about Israeli closures destrying Gaza's economy. This is one of the most widely cited reasons by commentators and analysts for the collapse of Gaza's economy. (if you want, I'll get sources for that too) These are facts Shamir... do you know why? Because I have reliable, credible sources.
Rafah crossing: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5370266.stm http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/765848.html http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4780259.stm http://www.btselem.org/English/Gaza_Strip/
Now, if you want to start getting sources for your claims, be my guest. But don't expect me to allow you to write in your opinion on this timeline, trying to pass it off as fact.
BTW, I've been looking for stats regarding Israeli/Palestinian/Egyptian casualties during the border wars in the early 50s. I'm having trouble finding reliable numbers, and as such, I kind of want to know where you got your numbers. So could you source those for me? Thanks.
A student of history 06:43, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
You said above that you greatly admire the Jews for achieving statehood without resorting to violent means, this troubles me. If you were really as well read on the subject as you claim, then you would be well aware of the revisionists and extremist tactics in the late 30's and 40's. There was a lot of blood shed between the Jews, Arabs and British during this time. Bombs were planted in markets, grenades were lobbed into crowds, gunmen opened fire on civilians, people were beaten, stabbed, raped, mobs were a plenty... you can read all about these incidents in a variety of secondary sources. But, as I've been saying, primary ones are best. The Palestine Post (discontinued after 1950) has an online archive that you can search actually. This paper documents much of the violence throughout the period, and is used as a reference by scholars a lot. In short, if you really believe the Jews didn't resort to "violent means", then you are very ill-informed. And it's not my job to spoon-feed you information and research that you ought to have done yourself before proclaiming your knowledge to be "quite advanced". A student of history
I don't know how many times I can say this. But you think that you can add whatever you want, claiming it's a fact, without having to source it. Do you think we should all just take your word for things? Is that how academia works? Is that how scholars work? NO! If you say something's a "fact", then you need to be able to prove it using a credible, reliable source. This is not a blog, this is an encyclopedia, facts and sources are all that matter here, not your opinions. Preferably a primary source, but in some cases this is unrealistic, so mutually agreed upon secondary sources will have to do. Now get to work.
P.S. since you think this timeline is a place to list every attack against civilians you can think of, I'm going to start adding Irgun/Lehi/IDF attacks against Palestinians all over the place. It seems only fair to me, considering there are dozens of Arab attacks recorded on this timeline. You see, I didn't want this timeline to turn into such a junkpile, but you've insisted. A student of history 15:39, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
1) 1948 War. Get over it. It's written VERY fairly and clearly documented.
2) 1953. I don't see your reasons for deleting, AT ALL.
3) 1956 Suez. Ditto.
4) No official "program", dont you get that? Nothing was official. Yes they supported it, contributed to it, but it was not an official program.
5) It says Israel captured the West Bank and Gaza, adding the rest is beyond WP:POINT, especially for a timeline. Its like saying: Louis bought the strawberry field. Now Louis owns the strawberries.
6) Camp David. That's so annoying. A fact is a fact is a fact. Don't give me this "it's not a matter of facts" rubbish. This was written before you or I got to it. Leave it alone.
7) Palestinian terror attacks on Israelis subsequently drops by 90%. - I gave you 2 sources already.
8) a. Numbers of victims. This is something I added and I'm getting close to just pulling it out. Adding "although the victims are overwhelmingly civilian on both sides" is controversial and is in our best interest to leave it out.
b. I already explained this to you. That line is about casualties, not houses. I am not going to repeat myself you can read it over again. And yes, a permit is possible, in fact, the city of Jerusalem provides Arab residents with free professional advice to assist with the house permit process and structural regulations, a service Jewish residents have to pay for. If you want to write x many houses were demolished as they were illegally built, storing arms or weapons, providing cover for terrorists, launching bombings, families of martyrs (who are then financially supported by Palestinian organizations), blah blah, then state the damage done to public and private Israeli homes and infrasture, then thats something to talk about. But something just like that, no.
9) a. The greenhouses is not at all a serious or impactful issue and has nothing to do with the desecration, nor with the approval of the PA. Would you like to add the desecration and vandalism of Jewish Jerusalem and the animal pen built on a Jewish holy site while in Arab hands?
b. Israel removed the Bedouins as the Palestinians are hostile towards them and see them as collaborators with Israel. There is some talk of it in Arad.
10) Israel launches a counter-offensive to deprive cover to militants firing rockets into Israel from Gaza. 23 Palestinians killed, at least 16 are identified militants, 76 wounded. COME ON. It states their intent and their reason. Such POV, what a hypocrite.
11) 59% of Palestinians. - Read the survey.
12) This writing on who to blame is such hypocritical POV nonsense. What does this timeline give about 160,000 civil servants? The previous edit is much more accurate and neutral. I read a pal site that was solely critical of the EU in the matter of Rafah. Also, read the general PLO article.
13) Your notes can stay.
-- Shamir1 23:30, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
PS The Deir Yassin thing has been debunked by BBC. Morris may have relied on sources given to him, however this is the factual evidence.
I'll make the most comprehensive list I can here by comparing the versions of our revisions; I'll try to make this as easy to read as possible, and explain why I find your edits unacceptable. Now Shamir, I have used a reliable source for everyone of my points here in the timeline, they are found in the version of the timeline I last editted.
1) 1936 - 1949, the Lehi and Irgun actually started attacking the Arabs and British in '36, you can read about these incidents in the Palestine Post. For the incidents that I wish to add to this timeline (those being the ones where at least 10 Arabs were killed) I have, and will continue, to provide a source to the original publication. And if we're going to have entries for dozens of suicide bombings and Arab attacks, it only seems fair to me that we include the incidents of Jewish extremist terrorism against the Arabs in the late 30's and 40's.
2) 1946 King David Hotel: I provided a link to the original newspaper story where the Irgun claimed they warned, and the British denied it. To this day, neither organization has changed their story. It's he said, she said, we should have both arguments there. But neither is a "fact", because it cannot be proven, contradictory testimony is all there is.
3) 1948 Deir Yassin: You have entered details for massacres perpetrated by Arabs, you have described the ages of victims, occupations, gender, and some background description of what they were doing. With Deir Yassin I'm only seeking to add some of that, that it's a fact that some prisoners were humiliatingly paraded around Jewish neighbourhoods afterward. If you insist on a certain level of detail for Arab atrocities, you have to give me this. And the Jewish Agency did describe it as 'barbarous', I have the original quote from the Palestine Post.
4) 1948 Hadassah massacre - I just want it to be made clear that it wasn't a quick ambush event. There was a battle here that lasted for 7 hours, Hagannah troops intervened to try and fend off the Arabs with mortars and artillery and such. If you insist on giving all that background detail for Deir Yassin, implying that it was absolutely necessary to attack the village to save Jerusalem, then let this go.
5) It's worth noting that the inhabitants of Ramla and Lydda were expelled, since it was the largest single expulsion of the war. This is probably one of the more important events on the timeline. I got this entry from the 'Palestinian exodus' page, but if you insist, I will get a better source. Don't hesitate to ask, I'm not holier than thou. But when I come back with one, the entry stays, it's a major, major event.
6) 1953 - "On October 12, a Jewish mother and her two children are killed by Jordanian infiltrators."... Come on... does this really belong on a timeline? I hope neither of us are this petty. My point here, is that it is such a minor and trivial thing, that it simply doesn't belong here. No one could argue that something like this belongs on a timeline of "notable" events.
7) Suez 1956 - I'll accept what's written here.
8) 1967 - To say "some Israelis settle there" is an unecessary euphemism. We could say something like "with the support and assistance of the Israeli government, Jews begin to construct settlements in the occupied territories", my point is that the fact that the government provided the impetus must be made. Secondly, I had 6 sources from authoritative bodies, including the Israeli supreme court, which stated that the territories are considered occupied. It is not a POV, it is the recognized assertion of all the legal and political bodies that matter. I'll use the Hezbollah example again: How would/could you prove to me that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization? Which sources are considered authoritative, and which sources have opinions that are not relevant? Answer: The UN, US government, ICJ are authoritative... you would show me that Hezbollah is considered a terr. organization by these bodies, and therefore, it's a fact. The Leb. government doesn't consider them such, but their opinion is irrelevant, you would say, and you'd be right. So now, we ask, "are the territories occupied"? We turn to those very same sources (plus Israeli supreme Court) and we find the answer is "yes". It doesn't matter if some legal scholars dispute this, because their OPINION is simply irrelevant.
9) 1982 - Seems good now, my point was that the distortion lay in the implication that the PLO shelling occuried a) during the cease-fire and b) prior to Israeli strikes, even Bard does not claim this. But I would like to add that there were violations on both sides. Just ask for a source, I'll do the reading and find one for you, if you want, again, don't hesitate.
10) There were Palestinian victims at the Qana massacre, I'll get a source if you ask me to. But even if there weren't (there were though), I think this is just as relevant as saying "Egypt expels it's Jewish population".
11) Camp David: www.palestinefacts.org is not a credible source. I will accept most of www.mideastweb.org however. Now, the issue remains, what details to leave in, and which to leave out. If you want to enter that 95% of the WB was offered and rejected (show me where on that site it says this, because I do not believe that to be accurate, I have used this site a bit before and I think you're slightely confused about some details), then I'd feel compelled to write that the Palestinian state would not have been sovereign (see def. of sovereignty, it's not a POV), because that's also a fact, that Israel would have retained control of airspace, water, settlements, Jewish roads, ports, "external security", sovereignty over Jordan valley for decades... these are all facts that you can check at your own source. My problem is the cherry picking, we enter all the major ones, or we simply leave the arguments for the main page (which I would prefer). Let's simply state it happened, and move on. This timeline isn't supposed to be a place for arguments. But your edit is simplistic to the point of being false.
12) West Bank Wall: I will continue to look into this, because one should always be weary of broad sweeping statistics like that, they are rarely accurate. But I have no problem with it for now. We should note though, that part of the reason for the drastic drop in attacks is also the fact that Hamas had a 16 month truce with Israel, and is now restraining itself as well. My point is that the construction of the wall is not entirely resonsible for this drop, not nearly as much as is implied.
13) Palestinian Homes demolished: Facts are Facts, I'll get as many sources as you want. If you want to find out about damage done to Israeli structures, be my guest. But, we can work something out, like saying that there are a variety of reasons why these homes are demolished or something along those lines.
14) First, if you think it's relevant to this timeline that the Palestinians vandalized the synagogues (which I don't because it's trivial, which is why I don't put in how the settlers vandalize Palestinian businesses and attack school children, but I'll let it go), then it's certainly relevant to add that Israeli farmers destroyed 500 dunams of greenhouses (economically/agriculturally important) and that the IDF razed the settlements to the ground. Second of all, your claim that the PA "approved" these actions is entirely false; none of the "sources" (I put quotation marks around them because one was a blog, which was removed, and the other two were www.wnd.com, a paper which reported Sharon had died months ago) claimed this. In fact, if you read them, they claimed the exact reverse, that the PA police and officials "could not prevent" them, or tried to stop them, from doing this. You manufactured this claim, bad form. Maybe you just don't expect me to read your sources, but I do.
15) Gaza beach explosion: Fine with me.
16) July 26, 2006: My problem here is that you want to write that every single Israeli action is in retaliation for something. Well, would you allow me to write that every Palestinian attack is in retaliation for something? Because both Israelis and Palestinians feel this way, their papers report it this way, different scholars argue it this way. I know you want to justify every strike as "retaliatory" or as a "counter-offensive", but that is a POV. Equally, arguing that every Palestinian rocket attack was "in reponse" to an Israeli attack is a POV, nonetheless, that is exactly what Palestinian papers write, and what Palestinian militants claim. Both are POV's. Using the logic of "in response to", every action taken by either side is "in response" to aggression by the other side. My point, is that you think that the Arabs always act, Israel reacts. You think this is a truism, well it's not, it's a POV; Can we at least agree on this?
17) Summer Rains: Would you allow me to write that Shalit's kidnapping was in response to the abduction of the two Palestinian brothers?
18) September 2006, your survey is from 2003, with the fast-changing political situation in this conflict, it is way outdated.
19) The "source" you provided me about Israeli aid to the Palestinians, in fact, didn't mention anything to that effect at all; I do read what you give me man. So I'm still unaware of this "aid" you speak of. Second, the EU doesn't have anything to do with Karni, and Israel still retains overriding control of Rafah, the links I provided show this. If you claim otherwise, don't tell me "I read this and I read that", you have to show me. Third, given the financial/political crisis right now, it's important to note that 165,000 Palestinians in Gaza (something like a quarter of the workforce) haven't got paid in over 6 months; this is why there is rioting and so forth right now, you don't think it's important to note that the PA cannot afford to pay it's own employees for half a year? Last: you have not provided a source for your claim that commentators blame the PA for witholding billions of dollars, the one in your edit was about weapons smuggling, not PA money hoarding. But I do think we should definitely write here that weapons smuggling had increased dramatically since the disengagement.
20) Those www.conceptwizard.com links make wikipedia look foolish. They are nothing but propoganda, there is no equivalent Arab propoganda link here, and I wouldn't accept it even if there was, these have to go, they insult the integrity and credibility of this site.
1940-1949
Lehi (group) (also known as the Stern Gang) attacks British targets in Palestine. 1944-1948 the Irgun and then Haganah join in on anti-British attacks.
This a correct description. Simply adding a "book" is not a ref. Also you're mistaking with 1944 and 1945. If you want to talk about the period where both Arabs and Jews attacked each other, it's a differnet time... you can read the relevant articles. Amoruso 09:27, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Shamir, this is absurd. You come back with nothing except arguments and POV's. You present absolutely no sources for you claims at all, in fact, you consistently refuse to do so. I'm asking something very basic of you, to source your claims, and you cannot do this.
A student of history
18:29, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
This article suffers from bias due to a complete narrative of one side but almost zilch (comparatively) from the Palestinian side. For every attack on Israelis, there were 8767868798076434452345678909876543w4534563564675674435434564678567567845646745674657465745646546546464646464646464675674567465744534563456354634563456367456678909876 attacks on Palestinians give or take. That only Palestinian attacks are listed here like some sort of propaganda list is not very neutral. Also, some sentences are in the present tense, and others in the past. There are also many inaccuracies, such as the PLO sending a letter to Shamir in 1988 (never happened, it was a letter to Rabin in 1993). Needs a lot of fixing. -Scott
-- Shamir1 01:02, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Proof of your ineptitude, and lack of respect as well as lack of knowledge, is that you reverted incorrect information, for example, that the PLO sent a letter to Israel in 1988. If you cannot verify your edits, don't re-add them. Either way, watch who you call an idiot, I'm new but I can learn fast, and report you if necessary. -Scott
1- Before 1948, the place was called Palestine. Saying it was called Land of Israel (sometimes known as the region of Palestine) is distortion of fact and reads like the article was written by a militia group. 2- Since when have Palestinian rioters ever been referred to as "sunni Muslims" in lieu of being called "Palestinians"? What kind of nonsense is this? And Palestinian rioters very often include Christians, merely judging from the number of Christians that have been killed by the Israeli army.
3- The narrative for the Palestinian refugee problem differs depending on who you ask, and I tried to make that clear but you just reverted to the the militant zionist version - not the Israeli version, the militant zionist version. 4- Transjordan became Jordan in 1946, so it couldn't have been Transjordan that invaded Palestine in 1948. 5- The "local Arabs" were already at war with the Yishuv before 1948. 6- THere is no evidence that foreign Christians were banned from visiting Jerusalem - or foreign Jews for that matter - how would the Jordanian authorities even know the religion of the foreigners? 7- It is very very well known that Israeli soldiers were guarding the entrances to Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps - why else was Sharon found responsible for the massacre? Yet you chose to remove this clear-as-day fact from my edits. 8- Events attributed to December 14 1988 completely predate the actual events by 6-10 years, but you just changed it back to what it was previously with slight "merges" that still returned the section to complete nonsense. 9- How could the 1988 "first suicide attack" be called one when there was no knowledge if the attacker intended to die, notwithstanding the fact that he lived? 10- The fact that Sharon had 1000 policemen with him when he visited the mount was an overwhelming reason for the riots - he made his "visit" look like an incursion. Yet you conveniently removed mention of the 1000 policemen. 11- The Palestinian attacks in Israel declined by 90% NOT in 2002 when the wall was being built, but much later as Hamas signed a ceasefire (or agreed to one) with then prime minister Mahmoud Abbas. To state that "Wall was built, terror fell by 90%" just like that is incredibly misleading. -Scott
It was known as Palestine. Stamps, money, etc said "Palestine" in English, Hebrew, and Arabic, and aleph-yod initials in Hebrew as well. But it was not mainly called "Land of Israel" and only sometimes called Palestine, that's reversal of facts.
Have to check, I was sure it was 1946
Yes, perhaps, but the article also mentions Christians and again, that can't be true because of tourist attractions and also, how would the Jordanians know the religion of tourists?
The fact that the camp was surrounded by Israeli soldiers is an integral part of the story. Omitting it is dishonest, whether you like it or not.
It got the US to talk to him, which was a big deal back then.
Unless you have a source for this, I don't see how you can speculate.
The number is true and is in many reports of the incident. A thousand policeman guard was seen as very provocative. Again, whether you like it or not.
Amoruso 19:23, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
To scott learn how to sign comments if you wish further discussions. Amoruso 21:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
The thousand policeman thing is very relevant, Palestine was known widely as just that - not EI except in initials on official documents next to "Mimshalat Falastin" in Hebrew, and since you were not kind enough to show me how to sign comments, I do not wish to continue discussions. With people of your bias around, Wikipedia is a joke anyway. Have fun with it. -Scott
I repeatedly posted sources for this. They did not begin in 1940, as currently claimed (and unsourced I might add), they began earlier in or around 1936-1937. I posted the links to a virtual archive of the Palestine Post, which documented these attacks. This is known as a primary source, bombs in Arab markets killed over 100 people in a single day on several occasions, these were major incidents that made headlines in many papers at the time. The links to the Palestine Post archive in above somewhere. I also noticed that someone removed these incidents from the Timeline. So, I suppose that "An Israeli woman is killed by Jordanian infiltrators" is worthwhile (for some asinine reason) to be on a timeline, but bombs killing over 100 Arabs is not? Is that the way this "timeline" is?
http://jic.tau.ac.il/Archive/skins/PalestineP/navigator.asp?AW=1169534055109 Here is one issue of the Palestine Post showing that attacks against Arabs began at least as early at 1938. I will try to find earlier issues showing they began earlier, because I know they did, but this involves me doing considerable research through these archives. I will do it at a later date.
I also have major issues with the sourcing here. There are several locations where statements are made and the sources attached to them have absolutely nothing to do with the statement, I removed one such instance earlier. Some people still don't understand at all how to use sources. First, WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A SOURCE! Just because something is writting on another wiki page, doesn't necessarily make it true. Get a source. Second, an opinion is not a source. So just because a scholar renders an opinion, doesn't make it a fact. Third, primary sources ARE factual. As in the issue I talked about in the above paragraph; I posted links to primary source from the Palestine Post which is primary evidence of Lehi/Irgun attacks occurring in the late 30's, and Shamir1 deleted them. I don't want to get into a war, but some people here need to understand some fundamentals of sourcing. If you don't know what a primary source is, do some reading. The best way for everybody here to resolve our issues is to set a standard for sourcing.
The standard for sources should be high, because this is supposed to be an encyclopedia remember? So, as in any print encyclopedia, we should restrict ourselves to 'scholarly' sources. That means primary sources where possible, if not things like good newspapers (like the NY Times or Ha'aretz for example). Opinions are not sources, even if the people rendering those opinions have Ph.D's. As well, sources need to be current. Example: A poll indicating public sentiments among Israelis or Palestinians; you can't take a poll taken back in 2000 or 2003 and use this as a current example. Anybody even removelty familiar with these sorts of things know how fickle public opinion is and how drastically it can change virtually overnight. A student of history 20:32, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Look Shamir, you have got to stop writing on this page if you refuse to keep on falsifying things. The Mitchell Report clearly states: "we have no basis on which to conclude that there was a deliberate plan by the PA to initiate a campaign of violence ", You can read it here: http://www.nodo50.org/csca/english/informe_mitchel_5-01-eng.html. For someone who claims their knowledge to be "quite advanced", you ought to do a your research please. This is supposed to be an encyclopaedia, hold yourself to a higher standard. A student of history 17:24, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Shamir, to say that the Balfour declaration promised the Jews all of Mandatory Palestine is one interpretation, and one which is not supported by hardly any literature. The declaration does not specify the size nor the area of the future "Jewish National Home". To say that when the British partitioned off Tranjordan was land "allocated for the Jewish state" is 1) a POV, and 2) a minority one at that.
This is interpreting the Balfour declaration in a very specific context. Your source from Jewishvirtuallibrary (ie. Mitchell Bard) is not something authoritative here. All you are sourcing is a particular interpretation and POV (that of Bard), ie. you are sourcing someone's opinion. Opinions are not facts, the Jewish virtual library can be used for sources like primary documents and stuff, but when you simply use it to reference an opinion, it does not work. One of the big issues under the Mandate was the extent of the "Jewish national home", how big it was going to be, and was it even going to be a sovereign state. You are claiming that a minority, narrow opinion is a fact, and it is not. Sorry, that line is not even close to being either factual, neutral or worth being on the timeline. 131.202.32.5 12:50, 14 March 2007 (UTC) (A student of history)
The Sanremo document has little bearing on the issue here, which is the partition of Transjordan. There are those here who want the entry to state that all of Palestine was designated for a future Jewish state. The 1922 White Paper well establishes this is not true, you are right about article 25 of the Sanremo text pertaining to Transjordan, however, I just don't think we need to get into a discussion about this document here is all.
I will try to find a reliable source for this, as I believe it to be true, I don't think it's a POV, different bodies have done studies confirming this, I just need to do a little research to find them again. But until I do, I will leave it out. Things should be sourced after all. A student of history 14:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Shamir1, another thing. You have to stop putting down "in response to" or "amidst constant rocket fire" and such. These statements qualify Israeli actions as retaliatory, while you (or anyone) never writes the same for Palestinian actions, such as "amidst Israeli raids" or "in response to recent incursions" and such. We simply state what happened. Because just as you can justify every Israeli action as being in response to something, so can others justify Palestinian actions as being in response to an Israeli attack. That is your POV Shamir1. It is your opinion that everything Israel does is "amidst rocket fire" and such, but other people see it differently. They, for instance, Palestinian rockets into Israeli "in response" to incursions, shelling, kidnappings, closures, and such... The point is, we do not let those opinions enter here. Thank you. A student of history 23:59, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
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ArchiveĀ 1 | ArchiveĀ 2 |
Wontonotnow ( talk) 23:18, 27 September 2010 (UTC) The timeline was becoming asynchronous around 2003-2005 because of a tag for "recent events". This was causing people to add items in 2 different areas. I pasted the items in their proper places. "Recent" is relative and can cause confusion, so I took "recent events" out completely. I do NOT agree that a timeline of this detail is "not appropriate for an encyclopedia". We just need to evolve our definition of Encyclopedia that fits the information age.
Ed, the problem I see with this solution is that we now have an entry that probably doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. At best, this list will be a level of detail about the recent violence in that region that is unmatched in any other entry (WWII Dresden, genocide, concentration camp, Hiroshima, etc.)
At worst, it's going to be a constant source of advocacy.
Hum -- I never did like this timeline and now it has its own article. I have to agree with Marknau and state my opinion that this level of detail is not appropriate for an encyclopedia and this particular timeline does show a bias of omission by not stating the daily hardships imposed on Palestinians by occupying Israeli troops and periodic more severe actions (it is also incomplete and very inconsistent on what is actually included). I know, current events has similar issues, but current events doesn't pretend to be an encyclopedia article. -- mav
I'm not sure if I've breached etiquette by doing this, but I've added this page to the Wikipedia:Votes for deletion page. Are we supposed to take this discussion to Wikipedia talk:Votes for deletion, now? GrahamN
Actually, my reason for nominating it for deletion wasn't that it is PoV, but that it is not a suitable subject for an encyclopaedia, and people who feel strongly about the topic will be distracted from working on proper articles by the need to purge it of propaganda for one side or the other. Obvious bias in an article will inevitably undermine people's confidence in the whole thing, but it will be continuous hard work for somebody to keep this absurd "article" neutral. Since I seem to one of only a few contributors here who aren't clearly biased towards Israel, it looks like this task will fall largely to me. I don't want to have to do this, and I will not do this. It isn't what I thought Wikipedia was about. Since there doesn't seem to be a consensus that this article should be deleted, you will no doubt be delighted to hear that I will be unable to contribute further to the project. I predict, indeed I hope, that if this kind of blatant abuse is allowed to continue then Wikipedia will fail. This is a terrible shame because if you were to stick to the original idea of being an encyclopaedia then within a few years it would probably have become the most respected source of information in the world. Goodbye. Please delete my home pages and my login account. GrahamN 20:17 Jul 24, 2002 (PDT)
Graham, I know that just yesterday we did not see eye to eye on something at first, but in just a short while we were able to come to some solution that was satisfactory to both of us--and I think we did it in a friendly, rationale manner, devoid of personal insults, abuses, or rants. I hope you feel the same. I enjoyed the give and take, and felt that your concern for a proper portrayal of the issues was reflected in what you wrote. Frankly, I was looking forward to more discussions that would help us make the articles on this subject as good as possible. I ask you to please reconsider. Your contributions are invaluable in this and other areas as well. Please don't let the heated passion of this topic sway you otherwise. I hope you will stay and continue to contribute to this and many other topics. Danny
Mav, I moved the timeline here because (a) I like chronologies and (b) I thought it was better to have it here than in a talk page. Perhaps this article will develop into two main sections: (1) a relatively dispassionate list of violent incidents and (2) accurate representation of the various POVs about the violence.
Just an idea. Peace, brother. Ed Poor
My main concern is that political events that happened only months ago are way to young to be included in an encyclopedia. It is almost impossible to weed out the facts from the propaganda. As it is now, most events is about suicide bombings which is understandable as they get more airtime than for example, Israeli roadblocks and killings. I think that would be hard to change as a timeline would detail the most extreme, the largest suicide bomging, the Israeli offense inflicting the most casualties and so on. It is hard to catch the normal. -- BL
As an outsider, I think either present a longer timeline, or present none at all. (however, this might be hard to do without pissing anyone off) A short timeline of just 2002 doesn't seem worth having here.
I would not consider this to be POV. As stated, this would be a description of violent events, but if that were a consideration for pages to be kept or not many pages would not be in Wiki. I disagree with the NPOV header on this page. Ntm 09:28, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Where is Jewish migration in this timeline? All it says is when it was stoped but never says when it started! "Thank God Marne had lunch or she's eat ur hair."-Marne's Dad. "Period...In your pants"-Marne's dumb ass Zain 14:58, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I am removing the POV tags from articles related to the Arab-Israeli conflict which no longer have active editorial and Talk disputes. If someone has a any further problems not already covered in Talk then by all means restore the tag but please start a new section and bring forth your concerns for consensus building. These perpetual NPOV tags are unreasonable.-- AladdinSE 08:06, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)
I moved them from Israeli-Palestinian_conflict_external_references to Talk:Timeline of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict/references. They are not supposed to be a separate article. bogdan 18:49, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I placed in some information on the Jewish immigration to Palestine, I put down the first two Aliyah's, and they were deleted? I think this is fairly criticial information to understanding this conflict, it is the foundation of this conflict, it provides context to the conflict. Reading this timeline, you wouldn't even know that Jews immigrated to Palestine in the first place?
The Aliyah's are the roots of this conflict started: At first, it was localized conflicts between Jewish immigrant groups, and Arabs over small plots of land.
Leaving this stuff out is just deliberatly cutting out important facts about this conflict for people's understanding. It's not biased one way or another, it's just explaining how these two people ended up living side by side in the first place. That's fairly important, no?
A student of history 22:03, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Also, it seems this page suffers from systematic bias. Israeli actions are always placed in context and qualified, providing some background information as to "why" such action was taken, while Arab ones are not. Arab attrocities are described, while Israeli ones are glossed over or omitted. It's not acceptable from a NPOV. I'm not saying this timeline shouldn't provide detail about actions and war crimes, or "terrorism", but it should be at least balanced.
from Pink: The statement "There had been a continuous Jewish presence in the Holy Land since Biblical times, as well as smaller waves of immigration throughout history" really needs a reference. So does "At that time, the Jewish presence in Palestine was roughly 6% of the total population, the rest consisting of Arabs (90% of whom were Muslim, 10% Christian)" and "Judaism had been the predominant religion in Jerusalem, and from the 1870s on, the city again maintains a Jewish majority." In addition, the second statement needs explanation: "at that time" should be defined with a date or time period. I must agree with others who have raised concerns over bias in this article and concur with them and others who have stated that this is not encyclopedia-worthy material. I am sorry that I am not able at this time to do muhc about it. 66.112.51.45 ( talk) 19:08, 28 April 2008 (UTC)Pink
1) Deir Yassin background: I have no problem providing background information for events like this, AS LONG AS IT IS BALANCED. Meaning, it is unbalanced, and slanted to provide critical background information to give sympathetic context to Israeli actions but refuse to do the same for Arab actions. So we either remain consistent and provide reasoning for Arab acts as well, or we don't do it for either. (willing to let this go)
2) The unnecessary description of the Hadassah massacre. Why provide such a level of description for this and not for any massacres of Arabs? It seems to me this would bias the reader, making Israeli tragedies seems more personal, tragic and barbaric, while not giving the same level of description to massacres of Arabs. This is bias, we don't need a "play by play" when Jews are massacred if we're not going to give the same consideration to Arab tragedies.
3) Causes of the exodus. I think we have a serious fundamental difference of opinion. You claim something is a fact, I claim it is not. You can post a dozen sources which agree with you, I could get a dozen sources to agree with me, hence the DISPUTE! It is not a fact, if you read Morris for example, his research would seriously contend that claim. I suggest we simply state that refugees were created, add that the causes/reasons for the exodus are debated, and link to the "palestinian exodus" page. But your edit very clearly gives favour to one POV, and this timeline shouldn't contain full arguments/descriptions, it should only "note" important events. In other words, I don't simply want to "add on" to what you've written, because then we would go back and forth and end up with an entry way, way too long for this timeline. In order to explain even in basic detail the theories for the exodus and the causes of it, the entry would end up being far too long. As such, I don't see any point in even getting into it. It's not that I want to "omit facts", it's precisely because I DON'T want to omit anything, that I don't want to get into the details of the exodus on this timeline. Your edit, no offense, is over-simplistic, obviously sympathetic towards pro-Israeli theories and opinions, and omits a great deal. This timeline shouldn't include an argument about the exodus, it should simply state that there was an exodus, and then provide a link to the page where the reader can fill himself in. Can we agree?
4) Israeli casualties in the '50s with Egypt. If we're going to start listing all these Israeli casualties, we need to list all the Egyptian/Palestinian casualties as well for this period as well. Otherwise, the timeline cherry picks information. But as I've said before, this timeline should only be a list of "major/notable/important" events, not every damn minor skirmish or raid. So for the sake of balance, we either list all the casualties on both sides, or agree that this is trivial information not suitable for this timeline.
5) Perhaps you didn't notice this, but I think Arafat's appointed to Chairman of the PLO in '69, and the creation of Hamas in '87 are important to have on the timeline. (resolved)
6) Camp David, the reason why I don't want to get into details here is again, this timeline is not a page for long arguments and lots of details. Your edit cherry picks information as well, for the sake of balance I would want to add that the WB would be chopped into two sections, the settlements would remain under Israeli authority, Israel would retain control over resources and borders...... I could go on and on. So you see the uselessness of doing so on this page? I feel this page should only note that negotiations took place, and the reasons for the collapse are disputed, because they are. Many people blame Arafat, but many others place more blame on the Americans and Israeli's. Hence, disputed or controversial. It is simply not a "fact" that Arafat single-handedly scuttled a generous offer, that is one narrow POV.
7) You statistics for the second intifada are rubbish:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3694350.stm http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=336075 http://hrw.org/wr2k6/pdf/israelopt.pdf http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/israel2/israel0402-02.htm http://hrw.org/reports/2005/iopt0605/iopt0605text.pdf#search=%22civilians%20killed%20second%20intifada%22
But I'm not going to post these sources or their numbers, claiming they are "facts" because your sources obviously dispute them. Hence, we should list total casualty figures, making it clear they encompass both civilian and combatant deaths, and note that the exact figures of civilians/combatants are disputed or difficult to calculate. But your edit clearly implies that Palestinian civilian deaths are infrequent and Israel lacks any culpability, which is only one POV.
I hope we can work this out to achieve a NEUTRAL telling of MAJOR events. Not one which depicts aggressive Arabs and a reactionary Israel.
Ensure a NPOV is not simply a matter of stating facts. Stating "facts" is only one part of it. Choosing which facts to present, and which to omit, providing context and choice of language are all even more important. So we shouldn't think in terms of "just stating facts", Mitchell Bard and Norman Finkelstein both state many facts, often the same facts, but they portray completely different versions of events. You see where I'm going with this?
A student of history 02:28, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
This timeline is not a place to list every goddamn suicide bombing or Israeli casualty. Why? Because then for the sake of being balanced and NEUTRAL, we would have to do the same for Arab and Palestinian casualties. This timeline is a place to list "major" or "notable" events. So just as I'm not going to start listing all the incidents where Israeli air strikes killed Palestinian civilians, we shouldn't be listing all these incidents of suicide bombings. It's appropriate to note that they are taking place, list some of the big ones, and ones which had a significant impact/effect, otherwise you're just cherry picking.
All I want to do is list events that happened, and provide some statistics. That is what a timeline is for, not a battle-ground of conflicting arguments and statistics. I'm trying to keep this neutral, and you insist on inserting an unbalanced presentation of facts to favour Israel, there is no doubt about it. You want to give human character to, and describe Jewish victims, but you refuse to do the same for Arabs. That is SYSTEMATIC BIAS!
As well, this timeline very clearly gives the impression that "Arabs act", "Israel reacts". That is one POV, and it is most definitely not neutral, some people may regard this as the "truth", but there are a great many people who would argue against it. I think something needs to be done about it. And I don't care who writes it, we're not using the word "terrorist" here.
A student of history 16:55, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Here are some excerpts from your talk page. Sorry you felt that way. I did not mean to shed more information on Palestinian acts of terror against Israelis. I remember not writing additional info for Qibya, because there was tons of information on the events and background information that I thought it would be better for the reader to actually click the link and learn from there. In regards to the offer Arafat declined to accept, everything I had written was true, and before I edited it, that line was almost exactly the same except it said "over 95% of the West Bank" rather than "97% of the West Bank". I would also like to assure you, my knowledge of history is quite advanced, and I am currently studying history and political science in university. Also, rather than, "Jewish immigration begins" is fairly incorrect, as Jews have maintained a presence and have been immigrating to the Land of Israel even before the birth of Muhammad. However, I do see relevance to include the Aliyot (plural of Aliyah). I am glad we can come to terms and edit together. Keep in touch. Thanks. --Shamir1 22:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I only included any 'justification' you mentioned if the main article does indeed say so. And as for that Gaza disengagement, those words are not mine, but were part of the article long before I got to it. I do appreciate the communication we are having, though. --Shamir1 05:43, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
No one will ever find a statement clearly unbiased. So while you may still have that feeling, I get messages thanking me for clean-up effort of POV. I also hear of complaints of people unable to add information to the Palestinian exodus article, which is unarguably POV to the max. (I, by the way, have yet to even touch the artice). So if you think some of the events have some bias, well, I cannot say any of it is not true. My stance is already controversial, as an Iranian-American who supports Israel. Believe me, I am trying to clean up the article to the best of my ability. Thanks. --Shamir1 05:51, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
It appears to me that you insist on removing any slightest possibility of sympathy for Israel, even when it is truth. That link is the 1st or 2nd resource when you Google Palestinian Refugees, and is thus very reliable. I have included aspects on both sides. I removed a statement that mentioned an attack was done in response to Deir Yassin. That is not true. It does not say that anywhere.
You cannot just remove something because you feel it is a "justification". I state what each groups motives were, and that information is written in the main article. Secondly it is not just Jewish Virtual Library but MANY MANY sources. and that is not the point. The point is that the Palestinians were encouraged to leave by their leaders, and their are quotes to support that on that page. Quotes are not written by the author you mentioned, and therefore bear no POV. I really do not see what you are doing anymore. You are removing key information. And as for the East Jer offer, it is a fact and not debated and I have read it many times before hand and I stress it was written in this timeline long before I touched it. So please, for both of our edits, let that date be. Thanks. --Shamir1 21:18, 25 August 2006 (UTC) You are NOT getting it. All you keep saying is I am putting an Israeli excuse. I am not. I write that it is a claim, and ALL these claims are WRITTEN IN THE MAIN ARTICLE. Truth. I did not write any for Arab ones because they DID NOT EXIST, not because of POV. When it comes to Palestinian refugees, you do not just put a period. It is a serious and vital part of the history and its cause is just as important. That again is NOT a matter of opinion. There are numerous sources to show the reasons of their leaving, with many quotations of Arab leaders showing encouragement. So don't give me this baloney that I am making up my own opinion, because it is not my opinion, it is a historical fact. --Shamir1 01:33, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
All I have done is add motives and causes. Please stop arguing with the truth, none of any of those sources are fraud. It seems to me that you are pushing your own POV when removing sourced material. There are even quotes from Palestinians who acknowledge leaving for those reasons, and besides that, ALL REASONS ARE GIVEN SPACE. It states clearly that many left for avoidance of crossfire, anticipation of war, and expulsion. All claims were given consideration and all have evidence to back it up. For you to just dismiss these facts and say it's biased, it's biased, is RIDICULOUS. Do your research. It is known how much land was offered to Arafat ALL OVER THE INTERNET. IT IS NOT DISPUTED. THAT IS WHY, again, IT WAS WRITTEN HERE ON WIKIPEDIA BEFORE EITHER OF US TOUCHED IT. Listen, stop this nonsense about every damn source being biased. There are plenty of resources to show each claim. To say that all these very many quotes by Arab leader and Arab refugees themselves are all wrong, yeah, ok. I really have been nice and have taken all your edits into consideration. Facts are facts, whether you think they may support one side or not, a fact is a fact. STOP REMOVING SOURCED, RELEVANT, AND TRUE INFORMATION. --Shamir1 01:52, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
All sources I have added are reliable. Secondly, the Camp David Summit is not a debate. Even in the main article the major debate is the reason why Arafat declined to accept the offer, FEEL FREE TO ADD IT. I do not see why we should disregard the basic and primary aspects of the offer. And as for the Palestinian refs, many sources say they had all been willing to leave, but I am not writing that. I am writing each reason, that takes in both sides. Some left because of this, some because of that. The big deal is not the language it is in, but that the fact is included. I can even find more sources if you want. If, after the reason for their leaving, you wish to include that their reasons are controversial, fine; but I do not like to disregard actual essential parts of history. Thanks.
oh please, i can easily say your sources are POV, but unlike you, I do not remove sourced and relevant material. Human Rights Watch has been known to have a strong anti-Israel bias, once even criticizing Israel for a massacre that never took place! I am keeping it, because it is a source and deserves a spot on the timeline. I am convinced that it is you who keeps pushing POV every chance you get, not me. You try to add your own little justifications as well, so shove it. --Shamir1 21:12, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't care what you think you can "see". It doesnt change the fact that I think you are wrong and misunderstand what information should be included. I think you should delete the fact that al-Qaeda attacked Americans in the WTC and Pentagon, it may evoke some pro-American sympathy. --Shamir1 21:22, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
There is one little problem pertaining to POV. When it comes to Camp David, that sovereignty thing is definitely POV. Nothing even close to it is mentioned. Now while I am sure you can find something on the Internet that will say something like that, obviously it was not enough of a 'biggy' to be in the timeline, nor the opinion of whether it would be sovereignty or not, nor the opinions of others (majority blame Arafat, even Clayton Swisher blames both). Luckily, I think we are close to the final status of our edits. =) --Shamir1 03:42, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
My problem with this timeline, regardless of who created certain entries, whether it was shamir1 or not, is that many of these entries display a qualitative and quantitative bias in favour of pro-israeli POV's. The information here may be true and sourced, that is not the issue I raise. The point I'm making is that when facts are presented in such a way (facts as they may be) that they quantitatively and qualitatively promote one POV over others, this is not NPOV.
1) Systematic bias, quantitative and qualitative differences in use of facts:
a) Providing detail of Jewish deaths (which may be facts), evoking sympathy and compassion, while relegating Arab deaths to mere statistics. b) Cherry picking facts and events in such a way to make it appear that the Arabs are always the aggressors, and Israel always the one who "reacts". c) Providing casualty statistics for Israeli's for periods of time (which may be factual), while ignoring Arab deaths for that same period. d) Providing context for Israeli actions to provide reasoning for them (which may be facts), while refusing to do the same for Arab actions.
2) Minor and trivial events:
This should not be a place to list every suicide bombing or air strike. Those are not major or notable events. So for the period of the second intifada (for example) there is no need to make an entry for dozens of suicide bombings, or dozens of israeli air strikes that killed civilians. Unless an event had a "notable" impact on the conflict, it shouldn't be here.
3)
This timeline SHOULD NOT BE A BATTLEGROUND for arguments, contradictory statistics, pov's and so forth. That is what more specific articles are for, and where all the different POV's can be expressed, conflicting statistics presented and arguments made. But on this "TIMELINE OF NOTABLE EVENTS" it should only be stated that an event took place, (ie. Camp David Summit), because this is simply not the place to get into the details and arguments surrounding it, that would take up far too much space and make for a needlessly complex timeline.
Shamir1 and I have differing opinions on the conflict, which is understandable. I am seeking a neutral timeline, which hopefully, does not give portray either actor to be the one who acts or reacts, because that is a subject of debate.
A student of history 21:34, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I am seeking to create a fair and neutral article. I dont see why A student in history removes material that he acknowledges is true and then accuses me of POV. That is ridiculous. 1) Hadassah massacre has been shortened
2) The wave of infiltrations is very important, as it lead up to a particular event and the casualties of deaths are undoubtably essential
3) a. The Six-Day War is a very complex war, as any war, and I am not sure if the amount of troops Iraq sent is really necessary in the timeline b. Arguably, the people in the West Bank and Gaza could be considered Jordanians and Egyptians, respectively. Arabs would be a better more politically correct term. Point still comes across.
4) Operation Litani. The words "terrorist attacks" were used before our editing, taking them out would not only be POV but it would flush the definition of terrorism down the toilet. It very much annoys me when a user removes something that had been on Wikipedia so long before.
5) Operation Peace for Galilee - artillery attacks were launched by the PLO, it was also written before, do your research, read the article
6) Sabra and Shatila. I will keep that almost all were civilians.
7) Camp David 2000 Summit - come on! A student in history has been removing actual very important, noteworthy information that has been written here (again) long before I or him touched it. The original timeline said over 95% of the West Bank, and included the rest which I keep and I let him get away with his over 90%. He has also added his POV to make it sound like some sort of bad deal, although the majority (including many Palestinians) blame Arafat (which I do not include). Mr. student, please stop with this one, it's just really not fair.
8) Passover massacre shortened.
9) West Bank Wall put in. When I reverted the page it was not included last time, but it definitely should be.
10) These suicide bombings hit international headlines and many broke cease-fires. Each one of them has an impact on the government and people of Israel. I dont see why it would be "minor" when Wikipedia devotes an entire article to it, and world leaders make speeches specifically mentioning the attack.
11) 2000-2006. The source is baloney, and known for cracking up shit. It is from the people of wwww.whatreallyhappened.com. I am not saying that is your fault, just the site is illegitimate.
12) Operation Summer Rains. I agree that casualties should be listed but it can change everyday and probably should not be on the timeline until the operation/conflict has ended. Not a matter of POV, each death toll can rise (or even decline if they find that less had died, like in Houla).
13) I really do not believe that is a good link (ifamericans) for people (not because of POV) but I guess I will let it in.
-- Shamir1 05:27, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
i have changed my stance when it comes to that site. I do believe the pro-Pal link should very well be included. -- Shamir1 06:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
1) The details of the Hadassah massacre are unecessary. It is cherry picking to describe them in detail, and then ignore or refuse similar details for say Qibya or Kafr Kassem. For these events I simply listed the number of Arab deaths, and that's all. I don't see the need to give a play by play of Hadassah. The way it is now looks absolutely identical to the detail given to massacres of Arabs, that to me is neutral. It does not emphasize one over the other.
2) Yes, the wave of infiltrations is important. I agree that it should be included, however, I do not agree to listing only Israeli casualties. Arabs died too, including civilians living in the Sinai. Including only Israeli casualties is clearly cherry picking, that is not "fair" or "neutral" at all. So we either find casualty stats for both, including civilians, or we leave the statistics alone here. Fair enough?
3) It's fine with me if you want to call them "Arabs" instead of "Palestinians". Just FYI, if you read books such as Tom Segev's "One Palestine Complete", or Moshe Dayan's autobiography, you will find that the term "Palestinian" had been used to describe Arabs living in Palestine since before the British Mandate, but it doesn't matter. But with the details (ie. troop numbers) we should leave that for the main article.
4) I don't care who wrote it or how long it's been there. What does that matter? The point is, not all these violations were terrorist attacks. Many of them were attacks against the IDF, which ARGUABLY is not terrorism, it is a POV.
5) During the 11 months cease-fire preceding the war, there were no artillery attacks that you speak of. These preceded the cease-fire which came into effecct in 1981. During the cease-fire, along the Israeli-lebanon border, the PLO actually did refrain from such activity, do YOUR research.
6) Agreed.
7) See that's the point about this entry, inserting only the information you want makes it sound like a "good deal", which is a POV. The information I inserted does make it sound like a bad deal, which is another POV. Which is why I don't want to include any of these details and just leave them for the main page, because we can't cherry pick info here to support our views. You obviously think Camp David was a good deal for Arafat, I obviously disagree. So we should just leave our opinions out of it all together, and simply state that the summit took place, and Arafat rejected the proposal. Deal?
8) Agreed.
9) Thank you.
10) I know that some of these make international headlines, but so do Israeli strikes into Gaza and the WB. Does that mean I should include all of them? As I said, unless they have a significant or notable impact on the conflict, it shouldn't be here. Otherwise, you'll insert entries for 50 suicide bombings, and I'll insert entries to 50 Israeli air strikes and bombardments. And yet, it will all be relatively pointless and trivial information.
How about this: You put in something like 5-6 of the most notable suicide bombings, and I insert some of the more notable Israeli strikes? That way the timeline is still balanced, and readers get the impression. However, we keep the detail the same in both and neither of us write "in response to", because that is a POV. Is that acceptable?
11) Are you talking about www.ifamericansonlyknew.org? Yeah, well that site's not "baloney" but it is very biased, just as biased as www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org, (that's why I chose it) I would say that site is "baloney" too. The difference between the stats and numbers on those sites really shows how clearly biased they both are. If you use the "library" as a source, I get to use this one. Or we could agree to both use slightly more credible, fair sources. See, this is just our opposite opinions comming into play. But I'm not going to compare either of them to crackshit like "whatreallyhappened.com".
12) Good point, agreed.
13) I think, at the bottom under "external links", we should create two clearly seperate categories. One under a "pro-Israeli" heading, and another under a "pro-Palestinian" heading. It should be made clear at the outset which site adhere's to which POV. This way, we don't have to argue about excluding sites or not, because it is clearly established which opinion they favour to begin with... agreed?
A student of history 17:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
1) The siege was very important, no excuse to take it out 2) Hadassah massacre. It is short, just mentions they were not ordinary civilians, and mentions that road attacks did not end. 3) While it is debated how many Palestinians left for each reason, it is agreed that there were different reasons among them. 4) The infiltrations are vital, like you said. The Wikipedia article did not mention ANY Palestinian casualties, let alone civilians. It's a fact, it's not POV, it's important. 5) a. Six-Day War edited and ordered. b. I am not going to say Iraq sent a little, Egypt sent a lot, Syria sent a little, Yemen sent this much,... 6) Operation Entebbe edited. 7) So soldiers are not innocent? Who says an unprovoked attack on innocent people and soldiers is not terrorist. Wikipedia doesnt think so. They included this word here without any problem. 8) Peace for Galilee. Did my research. There were numerous attacks including artillery. "Israeli strikes and commando raids were unable to stem the growth of this PLO army. The situation in the Galilee became intolerable as the frequency of attacks forced thousands of residents to flee their homes or to spend large amounts of time in bomb shelters. Israel was not prepared to wait for more deadly attacks to be launched against its civilian population before acting against the terrorists.
The final provocation occurred in June 1982 when a Palestinian terrorist group led by Abu Nidal attempted to assassinate Israel's Ambassador to Great Britain, Shlomo Argov. The IDF subsequently attacked Lebanon again on June 4-5, 1982. The PLO responded with a massive artillery and mortar attack on the Israeli population of the Galilee. On June 6, the IDF moved into Lebanon to drive out the terrorists in "Operation Peace for Galilee."
Wikipedia also includes it in the first paragraph! No POV there.
9) I worded the Afula bombing this way because there have been suicide bombings against Israel before. It is really the same point but worded more correctly.
10) Camp David Summit. Despite the fact that YOU think it was a bad deal apparently, the majority do not. That is irrelevant anyway, because neither opinion is added to begin with. When it comes to this one, let it be how it has always been written before you. Simple/basic/principle parts of the agreement. You also cannot argue when it comes to the counter-offer. Let it be.
11) Wait, you think it is wrong to include what I include but okay to include Palestinian homes from anti-Israel sources? Amnesty International is biased, check the main article. We are not talking about damage to infrasture or how much it took to rebuild bombed cities, buildings,...
12) Unil disengagement. Many Bedouin were evacuated as they are largely pro-Israel. See Arad for some info.
13) I have no problem with the external links (sorry about the ifamericans site, I confused it with another of a similar name, it stands). First of all, Jewish Virtual Library is not baloney and is deemed very reliable, and pops up as the first or one of the first in a Google search for many different topics. Secondly, I am afraid we might run into some trouble by naming a site pro this or that. I thought it might be better to just write the name of the site, but the edits stand and I'll let it.
Thanks. -- Shamir1 20:53, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
All my edits were fair. Here are some explanations for my additional edits.
1) The siege of Jerusalem was important, STOP.
2) Hadassah massacre. Shortened just to get the gist of who the civilians were, and what they were doing. It is short, don't complain.
3) Palestinian refugees. a. While it is debated how many left and for each cause, it is agreed that different Palestinians left for different reasons. I just don't see your reason for removing it. No stats are given for any of the reasons, nor opinions on other side. It is fair. b. The unfavoring book I am reading calls the people there in that time "Palestinian Arabs," so I will keep the word Palestinian. Do not exaggerate and say "millions". Besides the fact that it sounds like something you read on an advertisement, the population was not even 2 million, which would not account for the multiple of the word "millions". We are not counting all the ones there to say Israel assumed control of this many of them, because ALL of them in the WB and Gaza were now under Israeli rule. Also, you cannot say they come under "military occupation." They were all offered citizenship, and it would be just the same like saying Tel Aviv was under military occupation. It was just another part of Israel then. The book says this: "And so Israel...found itself governing Palestinian Arabs in [the West Bank and Gaza] whose allies were sworn enemies of the Jewish state." The word governing is much more neutral and correct.
4) Infiltrations existed only on the Palestinian side. The Wikipedia article (I will repeat) did not mention ANYTHING about any Palestinians killed because of it. It lead up to an action and should stay put.
5) Six-Day War. If Iraq sends a small force, I am not going to sit there and have written well Egypt sent a lot and Syria sent this much and Jordan blah blah blah. The point is the combined forces.
6) Operation Entebbe. I edited the last sentence, no biggy.
7) Are you that sick to disagree with even the fair and mighty Wikipedia to rename terrorist attacks as skirmishes? Ugh.
8) Added some short, interesting details of the impact of the Israel-Egypt peace.
9) I explained the artillery attacks on N Israel, on my previous comment, read that. Besides it was already on the timeline before my edit.
10) While some claim Israel was responsible somehow for Sabra and Shatila, it is established that no Israeli soldier was directly involved in fighting in the massacre. They were not present.
11) I explained my very minor Afula bombing edit earlier. More correct words.
12) In addition to my previous comment, it is terribly wrong of you to remove information that is true and principle and has lived on this timeline forever. You say you think it was a bad deal, well keep your POV aside. Besides the fact that most do not, it doesnt MATTER. Neither opinion is showed but the FACTS which has in short been written here deserve to stay.
13) When it comes to bombings, raids, attacks, let's put it this way. For a lot of them not only did it reach international headlines but world leaders took the time to mention (mostly condemn) the action. No president comes out to make a speech about a 'minor' incident. So here is how we will have it for this: If Wikipedia has the main article, we can add it, and you can add what you said.
14) Passover massacre. What is up with that? It is short. Just let it be.
15) Battle of Jenin. Added most were militants and kept civilian number. No argument.
16) Your adding of the demolition just yells hypocrite. It really does not belong. Find a stat that mentions the harm and damage done to Israeli cities.
17) Basically it, added Bedouin issue too. You can see on Arad, Israel.
-- Shamir1 05:21, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
First, this is not supposed to be a collection of random acts of violence. I noticed many, many suicide bombing incidents have been added here, which seems odd and inappropriate, considering the context. This is supposed to be merely a timeline noting important events in this conflict, such as wars, peace conferences, major policy decisions...... and so on. (Take a look at timelines on other pages or encyclopedia's, they list only MAJOR events, not trivial acts of violence) Not a history of suicide bombings. If we're going to list all these suicide bombings, should we justly list every Israeli air strike or bombardment? I think that in order to maintain a NPOV, we would have to, thus this "timeline" degenerates into a casualty list.
Events like the Lod airport massacre, ma'alot, munich and so forth should very well stay... but do we really need a list of every explosion during the intifada's? I suppose what bothers me the most is the fact that while Palestinian violence is emphasized here, Israeli violence is relegated and ignored. This so-called "timeline" is pathetic at best. No NPOV at all.
The bias here is unacceptable. Arab deaths are dealt with as figures and numbers and often completely ignored (see 1950-1954 Egyptian-Israeli border clashes), Jewish deaths get a whole write up. Israeli actions are put in proper context, Arab ones are not given that consideration, giving justification and background for Israeli actions, while making it appear as though Arab ones are mindless. "Facts" are cherry picked from pro-Israeli sources (which may be acceptable if we allowed "facts" from pro-Arab sources in alongside, but then again, turning this "timeline" into a battleground for arguments).
Just because something makes headlines doesn't mean it belongs here, some users (Shamir1) want to turn this page into a collection of every wrong done to Israel by an Arab.
One editor here feels that Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are too "biased" to be used, but feels free to use www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org, claiming this is more "neutral".
The quality of this page is so far from acceptable.
A student of history 23:25, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Your comments on this board, and your user page make it patently obvious that you have no sense of neutrality whatsoever on this issue. None whatsoever... You are so far to one side that you see neutrality as biased.
You want to create a timeline which portrays Israeli actions as always defensive, justified and retaliatory, because you believe this to be the "truth", well that is simply one POV, you just don't see this.
With regards to your "well sourced information" about the Palestinian exodus, you have very cleary worded the phrase to emphasize the voluntary fleeing theory and orders from the AHC (a widely discreditted theory I might add) over others, then you cherry pick sources to back up that POV.
If I wrote a bunch of information here all about an ethnic cleansing during the '48 war, and then cited some internet sources of a pro-pal leaning, wouldn't you consider it just gibbrish?
A student of history 03:52, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
1: It is not a fact that Jerusalem maintained a Jewish majority since 1870's, I've read conflicting accounts of this, all from credible texts and sources.
2: It is not a fact that the British were warned prior to the bombing of the King David Hotel in '46. I've read books supporting this view point, and I've read scholars who dismiss it, as you all know, the British maintain they were never warned. It's a "he said, she said" really, not a "fact".
3: Minor point, but one somebody keeps getting wrong, Israel was declared by Ben-Gurion on May 14th, not 7th.
May 14th, 1947. A student of history
4: The wording of the Palestinian exodus event is unacceptable. The "orders from AHC" theory is marginal, discreditted and should not be presented in such a way as to emphasize it, or convey the notion that it was a major factor. Further more, I don't believe the reasons for the exodus are necessary on this timeline, otherwise it will become a battleground and the entry will be far longer than is appropriate for a timeline. If readers wish to learn more about it, and read about all the conflicting claims, they can read the main article. You are POV pushing, hard, leaving the arguments out is entirely neutral and you know it.
5: About the Six-Days War. Firstly, it has been widely documented, exposed, and accepted that the Israeli housing ministry, Knesset members and Cabinet members (in particular Ariel Sharon) were very active in building the settlements and getting the project going. This is an established fact, no longer hidden, Ha'aretz had some extensive coverage of it last year. Secondly, as a result of the war, the Palestinians in Gaza and the WB came under occupation, this is also not in dispute, I can cite UN sources, US State-Department sources, ICJ rulings... anything you want. Disputing this is simply absurd.
6: It is a fact, that during the ceasefire before the '82 invasion of lebanon, the PLO refrained from cross-border activity between Lebanon and Israel. The attacks you speak of came in response to Israeli actions. The casus belli was the assasination attempt.
7: Camp David, the "offered 95% of WB"... is simply not factual. Second, it is cherry picking. If we add this "detail", then for the sake of balance I would want to include many other facets of those negotiations, such as the carving up of the WB by Israeli security zones and roads... But for the sake of neutrality, we should both avoid all these pitfalls.
8: The beginnings of the Gaza-israeli "conflict" are disputed. Some say it began with the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit, others say it began with the kidnapping of Osama and Mustafa Muamar. Again, we should leave these arguments for the main article, and not a timeline, which is not meant to be a battleground.
9: The very fact that some of you want to include these "conceptwizard.com" pages as references is absolute proof of your POV pushing. If we're going to include asinine links like this, then we should demarcate a "pro-Palestinian" section and a "pro-Israeli" section, so that people understand that these pages are simply not intended to be neutral, which they are not.
One last comment about this page. This is not, I repeat is not supposed to be, nor will I allow it to turn into, a list of terrorist attacks against Israel. I do not insert every airstrike or shelling of Gaza or the WB because these are not major events in this history of the conflict, even if they kill 10 or 20 civilians. I can think of a dozen such incidents off the top of my head, but I'm not going to write them up here, because they simply don't belong. Wars, peace conferences, major policy shifts, annexations, major massacres/attrocities perhaps (Munich, Qibya)... these are notable events that belong on a timeline, not petty incidents of violence on either side. Shamir, you need to understand that. You don't seem to get what is appropriate for a timeline and what is not, I suggest you check out Brittanica's timeline's.
Shamir, please respond to these points A student of history 05:36, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
A student in history, what is all this "this isn't a fact" "that isn't a fact" crap. Are you a fan of conspiracy theories? You tell me about promoting "widely discreditted theories" while you are reading Noam Chomsky's work. What a comedian. -- Shamir1 01:25, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to start over here on the left again... But as I said, if you want to claim my edits are falso, then get a primary or credible source to back it up. But you should be aware of your own bias. A student of history
Shamir, Amoruso... it's this simple. If you claim something is a "fact", ie. warnings of bombs in the King David Hotel incident, or the AHC orders to flee, then get credible, preferably primary sources to prove it. A student of history
As I said, all of your revisions, adding in completely unsourced POV's is unacceptable. If you claim something is a "fact", get a primary source, or a non-partisan credible one. You've not done that, so I'm removing these POV's. It's not vandalism, it's enforcing the NPOV policy. It's just this simple, if you claim it's a "fact", you should have no problem getting a good source for it. **note, Mitchell Bard is not a reliable, credible, objective source anymore than, say, Norman Finkelstein is. Secondary sources which offer OPINION is not a verifiable "fact", unless they cite primary material. So stop putting in meaningly POV's. If you can get a primary source for it, fine, otherwise, it's not a fact, it's an opinion. Do you understand how this works now? I'll source anything you want me to, I would only expect that serious students of history should want reliable sources to be used. I don't know about you, but I'm big on getting good, primary sources. If you want me to get a source for something I consider to be a "fact", I will do so. But I expect the same consideration from you. Afterall, this is "supposed" to be an encyclopedia "facts", not opinions or points of view.
ex. The West Bank is in fact, occupied territory. This is a fact, because the US State Department, Israeli Supreme Court, Israeli Prime Ministers, UN, ICJ, every encyclopedia out there... and others, have asserted it to be so. You might be of the opinion that it is "disputed" territory, but in fact, according to any and all political and legal bodies that matter, it is occupied. That is a fact. A student of history 20:14, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
1) Who says Lehi attacked Arab civilians?
2) King David Hotel - "A young woman telephoned the British with a warning to leave the building. The British paid no attention."
Source? Secondary or Primary? I've read a couple books on this particular incident, one arguing they did, in fact, make the call. Thurston Clark I think. But he had no primary, documentary evidence, and he pointed out in his argument that the British maintain, to this day, that they never received a call. No primary documentation (at best, contradictory testimony) = no "fact" about the matter. Only conflicting reports. A student of history
3) Deir Yassin - Hazam Nusseibi, who worked for the Palestine Broadcasting Service in 1948, admitted being told by Hussein Khalidi, a Palestinian Arab leader, to fabricate the atrocity claims. Abu Mahmud, a Deir Yassin resident in 1948 told Khalidi "there was no rape," but Khalidi replied, "We have to say this, so the Arab armies will come to liberate Palestine from the Jews." Nusseibeh told the BBC 50 years later, "This was our biggest mistake. We did not realize how our people would react. As soon as they heard that women had been raped at Deir Yassin, Palestinians fled in terror."[14]
4) Arab-Israeli War - not even going to get into it. its well-known, admitted by Arabs, and on wikipedia.
5) Israel never had an official settlement "program". The fact that some settled or resettled in land now part of Israel is written.
6) Palestinian Arabs had been "occupied", it infers that they werent beforehand besides the fact that it is disputed whether they are occupied today. Unlike Egypt, social insurance was available under Israeli rule. Besides it would be WP:POINT.
7) Peace for Galilee - true statement. It was an attack on civilians and a concern.
8) Qana is not even close to notable in this conflict
9) Camp David - stop. It is true, true, true, true, true. Stop with the conspiracies made up later on.
10) West Bank Wall - written fine, stat there, nothing wrong.
11) 3,723 Palestinians and 1009 . These are the numbers I see. In addition I have sources going in to depth about how many civilians, whose responsibility, and who endangered who but I am sure you dont want me to add it.
12) You can't say this many Palestinian homes were demolished when you dont mention, a) the amount that were built illegally, b) the amount illegally storing arms/rockets/weapons, c) the amount providing cover for terrorists, d) the amount abandoned, e) without any mention of the cost or amount of damage on Israeli infrasture.
13) Gaza beach blast - Read the sources. Even Human rights watch took back their stance. the fact that someone says an investigation (there were numerous ones) was "whitewash" does not change the fact it was not their responsibility. its like finding a site that would say water isnt that good for you, im sure its out there.
13) Um excuse me, I added the Gaza counter-offensive, I read the article, i saw the news. that removing is pure POV.
14) Operation Summer Rains - that was already written on wikipedia. the op didnt come out of nowhere, we have to say what instigated it.
15) "Others blame the constant and indefinite Israeli closures of key border crossings, such as those at Karni and Rafah, preventing produce from being exported, and preventing emergency aid from getting to the Palestinians." Not true. They have jurisdiction and full control of their border with Egypt, where Rafah is.
16) Why would you delete "Israeli aid". I'm hoping that was a mistake, otherwise you're an idiot. read every news site out there. in fact, theyve spent more money on aid than arab states. -- Shamir1 03:21, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
PS - This just in the paper! Calling Norman Finkelstein "notorious" and saying, "Dr. Norman Finkelstein, whose work has been condemned by the scholarly community as 'the hate campaign of a zealot,' for its 'indifference to historical facts' ... Unable to get tenure at universities, Finkelstein has also been rejected by the Princeton faculty, where he trained for his Ph.D. Finkelstein's mentor, Noam Chomsky, remarked that he 'literally could not get the faculty to read his thesis or to come to his thesis's defense [and] they will not even write a letter for him saying that he was student.'" Doesn't sound too reliable to me.
A student of history 06:09, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I will use two examples here of what I am talking about.
1) "Occupied" vs. "Dispute" territory. You may be of the opinion that they are not "occupied", certain legal scholars may be of the opinion that they are no "occupied", but you, and they, don't matter. According to the UN security council, UN general assembly, US government, Israeli government, International Court of Justice and Israeli supreme court, they are "occupied" territories, not "disputed". Ipso facto, they are "occupied". You may have a different interpretation, some prof. somewhere may have a different interpretation, but that doesn't matter. According to any and all relevent legal and political bodies, they are, in fact, occupied. So that is a fact. Just like Hezbollah is a terrorist organization is a fact. Why? Because you go to any political or legal body that matters, (ie. all of the above mentioned) and they state, as a fact, Hezbollah is a terrorist organization. It might be the "opinion" of some Lebanese legal scholar that they are not, but his opinion doesn't matter. Do you understand? This is a fact. If you insist, which you have every right to do, I will get a source from every one of the organizations I mentioned above testifying to the fact that they consider the territories occupied.
2) Rafah crossing is still de facto controlled by Israel. Although on-the-ground soldiers are PA and Egyptian instead of Israeli, Israel retains sovereign (ie. final word) control over it. They have excercised this control recently. EU "observers" do not decide when it closes, they are observers, they have no absolute authority. The links I provided don't discuss the Karni crossing, because we both know that Israel closes this key crossing almost all day, every day, there are hundreds of reports and stories I could get for this one if you want to talk about Israeli closures destrying Gaza's economy. This is one of the most widely cited reasons by commentators and analysts for the collapse of Gaza's economy. (if you want, I'll get sources for that too) These are facts Shamir... do you know why? Because I have reliable, credible sources.
Rafah crossing: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5370266.stm http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/765848.html http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4780259.stm http://www.btselem.org/English/Gaza_Strip/
Now, if you want to start getting sources for your claims, be my guest. But don't expect me to allow you to write in your opinion on this timeline, trying to pass it off as fact.
BTW, I've been looking for stats regarding Israeli/Palestinian/Egyptian casualties during the border wars in the early 50s. I'm having trouble finding reliable numbers, and as such, I kind of want to know where you got your numbers. So could you source those for me? Thanks.
A student of history 06:43, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
You said above that you greatly admire the Jews for achieving statehood without resorting to violent means, this troubles me. If you were really as well read on the subject as you claim, then you would be well aware of the revisionists and extremist tactics in the late 30's and 40's. There was a lot of blood shed between the Jews, Arabs and British during this time. Bombs were planted in markets, grenades were lobbed into crowds, gunmen opened fire on civilians, people were beaten, stabbed, raped, mobs were a plenty... you can read all about these incidents in a variety of secondary sources. But, as I've been saying, primary ones are best. The Palestine Post (discontinued after 1950) has an online archive that you can search actually. This paper documents much of the violence throughout the period, and is used as a reference by scholars a lot. In short, if you really believe the Jews didn't resort to "violent means", then you are very ill-informed. And it's not my job to spoon-feed you information and research that you ought to have done yourself before proclaiming your knowledge to be "quite advanced". A student of history
I don't know how many times I can say this. But you think that you can add whatever you want, claiming it's a fact, without having to source it. Do you think we should all just take your word for things? Is that how academia works? Is that how scholars work? NO! If you say something's a "fact", then you need to be able to prove it using a credible, reliable source. This is not a blog, this is an encyclopedia, facts and sources are all that matter here, not your opinions. Preferably a primary source, but in some cases this is unrealistic, so mutually agreed upon secondary sources will have to do. Now get to work.
P.S. since you think this timeline is a place to list every attack against civilians you can think of, I'm going to start adding Irgun/Lehi/IDF attacks against Palestinians all over the place. It seems only fair to me, considering there are dozens of Arab attacks recorded on this timeline. You see, I didn't want this timeline to turn into such a junkpile, but you've insisted. A student of history 15:39, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
1) 1948 War. Get over it. It's written VERY fairly and clearly documented.
2) 1953. I don't see your reasons for deleting, AT ALL.
3) 1956 Suez. Ditto.
4) No official "program", dont you get that? Nothing was official. Yes they supported it, contributed to it, but it was not an official program.
5) It says Israel captured the West Bank and Gaza, adding the rest is beyond WP:POINT, especially for a timeline. Its like saying: Louis bought the strawberry field. Now Louis owns the strawberries.
6) Camp David. That's so annoying. A fact is a fact is a fact. Don't give me this "it's not a matter of facts" rubbish. This was written before you or I got to it. Leave it alone.
7) Palestinian terror attacks on Israelis subsequently drops by 90%. - I gave you 2 sources already.
8) a. Numbers of victims. This is something I added and I'm getting close to just pulling it out. Adding "although the victims are overwhelmingly civilian on both sides" is controversial and is in our best interest to leave it out.
b. I already explained this to you. That line is about casualties, not houses. I am not going to repeat myself you can read it over again. And yes, a permit is possible, in fact, the city of Jerusalem provides Arab residents with free professional advice to assist with the house permit process and structural regulations, a service Jewish residents have to pay for. If you want to write x many houses were demolished as they were illegally built, storing arms or weapons, providing cover for terrorists, launching bombings, families of martyrs (who are then financially supported by Palestinian organizations), blah blah, then state the damage done to public and private Israeli homes and infrasture, then thats something to talk about. But something just like that, no.
9) a. The greenhouses is not at all a serious or impactful issue and has nothing to do with the desecration, nor with the approval of the PA. Would you like to add the desecration and vandalism of Jewish Jerusalem and the animal pen built on a Jewish holy site while in Arab hands?
b. Israel removed the Bedouins as the Palestinians are hostile towards them and see them as collaborators with Israel. There is some talk of it in Arad.
10) Israel launches a counter-offensive to deprive cover to militants firing rockets into Israel from Gaza. 23 Palestinians killed, at least 16 are identified militants, 76 wounded. COME ON. It states their intent and their reason. Such POV, what a hypocrite.
11) 59% of Palestinians. - Read the survey.
12) This writing on who to blame is such hypocritical POV nonsense. What does this timeline give about 160,000 civil servants? The previous edit is much more accurate and neutral. I read a pal site that was solely critical of the EU in the matter of Rafah. Also, read the general PLO article.
13) Your notes can stay.
-- Shamir1 23:30, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
PS The Deir Yassin thing has been debunked by BBC. Morris may have relied on sources given to him, however this is the factual evidence.
I'll make the most comprehensive list I can here by comparing the versions of our revisions; I'll try to make this as easy to read as possible, and explain why I find your edits unacceptable. Now Shamir, I have used a reliable source for everyone of my points here in the timeline, they are found in the version of the timeline I last editted.
1) 1936 - 1949, the Lehi and Irgun actually started attacking the Arabs and British in '36, you can read about these incidents in the Palestine Post. For the incidents that I wish to add to this timeline (those being the ones where at least 10 Arabs were killed) I have, and will continue, to provide a source to the original publication. And if we're going to have entries for dozens of suicide bombings and Arab attacks, it only seems fair to me that we include the incidents of Jewish extremist terrorism against the Arabs in the late 30's and 40's.
2) 1946 King David Hotel: I provided a link to the original newspaper story where the Irgun claimed they warned, and the British denied it. To this day, neither organization has changed their story. It's he said, she said, we should have both arguments there. But neither is a "fact", because it cannot be proven, contradictory testimony is all there is.
3) 1948 Deir Yassin: You have entered details for massacres perpetrated by Arabs, you have described the ages of victims, occupations, gender, and some background description of what they were doing. With Deir Yassin I'm only seeking to add some of that, that it's a fact that some prisoners were humiliatingly paraded around Jewish neighbourhoods afterward. If you insist on a certain level of detail for Arab atrocities, you have to give me this. And the Jewish Agency did describe it as 'barbarous', I have the original quote from the Palestine Post.
4) 1948 Hadassah massacre - I just want it to be made clear that it wasn't a quick ambush event. There was a battle here that lasted for 7 hours, Hagannah troops intervened to try and fend off the Arabs with mortars and artillery and such. If you insist on giving all that background detail for Deir Yassin, implying that it was absolutely necessary to attack the village to save Jerusalem, then let this go.
5) It's worth noting that the inhabitants of Ramla and Lydda were expelled, since it was the largest single expulsion of the war. This is probably one of the more important events on the timeline. I got this entry from the 'Palestinian exodus' page, but if you insist, I will get a better source. Don't hesitate to ask, I'm not holier than thou. But when I come back with one, the entry stays, it's a major, major event.
6) 1953 - "On October 12, a Jewish mother and her two children are killed by Jordanian infiltrators."... Come on... does this really belong on a timeline? I hope neither of us are this petty. My point here, is that it is such a minor and trivial thing, that it simply doesn't belong here. No one could argue that something like this belongs on a timeline of "notable" events.
7) Suez 1956 - I'll accept what's written here.
8) 1967 - To say "some Israelis settle there" is an unecessary euphemism. We could say something like "with the support and assistance of the Israeli government, Jews begin to construct settlements in the occupied territories", my point is that the fact that the government provided the impetus must be made. Secondly, I had 6 sources from authoritative bodies, including the Israeli supreme court, which stated that the territories are considered occupied. It is not a POV, it is the recognized assertion of all the legal and political bodies that matter. I'll use the Hezbollah example again: How would/could you prove to me that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization? Which sources are considered authoritative, and which sources have opinions that are not relevant? Answer: The UN, US government, ICJ are authoritative... you would show me that Hezbollah is considered a terr. organization by these bodies, and therefore, it's a fact. The Leb. government doesn't consider them such, but their opinion is irrelevant, you would say, and you'd be right. So now, we ask, "are the territories occupied"? We turn to those very same sources (plus Israeli supreme Court) and we find the answer is "yes". It doesn't matter if some legal scholars dispute this, because their OPINION is simply irrelevant.
9) 1982 - Seems good now, my point was that the distortion lay in the implication that the PLO shelling occuried a) during the cease-fire and b) prior to Israeli strikes, even Bard does not claim this. But I would like to add that there were violations on both sides. Just ask for a source, I'll do the reading and find one for you, if you want, again, don't hesitate.
10) There were Palestinian victims at the Qana massacre, I'll get a source if you ask me to. But even if there weren't (there were though), I think this is just as relevant as saying "Egypt expels it's Jewish population".
11) Camp David: www.palestinefacts.org is not a credible source. I will accept most of www.mideastweb.org however. Now, the issue remains, what details to leave in, and which to leave out. If you want to enter that 95% of the WB was offered and rejected (show me where on that site it says this, because I do not believe that to be accurate, I have used this site a bit before and I think you're slightely confused about some details), then I'd feel compelled to write that the Palestinian state would not have been sovereign (see def. of sovereignty, it's not a POV), because that's also a fact, that Israel would have retained control of airspace, water, settlements, Jewish roads, ports, "external security", sovereignty over Jordan valley for decades... these are all facts that you can check at your own source. My problem is the cherry picking, we enter all the major ones, or we simply leave the arguments for the main page (which I would prefer). Let's simply state it happened, and move on. This timeline isn't supposed to be a place for arguments. But your edit is simplistic to the point of being false.
12) West Bank Wall: I will continue to look into this, because one should always be weary of broad sweeping statistics like that, they are rarely accurate. But I have no problem with it for now. We should note though, that part of the reason for the drastic drop in attacks is also the fact that Hamas had a 16 month truce with Israel, and is now restraining itself as well. My point is that the construction of the wall is not entirely resonsible for this drop, not nearly as much as is implied.
13) Palestinian Homes demolished: Facts are Facts, I'll get as many sources as you want. If you want to find out about damage done to Israeli structures, be my guest. But, we can work something out, like saying that there are a variety of reasons why these homes are demolished or something along those lines.
14) First, if you think it's relevant to this timeline that the Palestinians vandalized the synagogues (which I don't because it's trivial, which is why I don't put in how the settlers vandalize Palestinian businesses and attack school children, but I'll let it go), then it's certainly relevant to add that Israeli farmers destroyed 500 dunams of greenhouses (economically/agriculturally important) and that the IDF razed the settlements to the ground. Second of all, your claim that the PA "approved" these actions is entirely false; none of the "sources" (I put quotation marks around them because one was a blog, which was removed, and the other two were www.wnd.com, a paper which reported Sharon had died months ago) claimed this. In fact, if you read them, they claimed the exact reverse, that the PA police and officials "could not prevent" them, or tried to stop them, from doing this. You manufactured this claim, bad form. Maybe you just don't expect me to read your sources, but I do.
15) Gaza beach explosion: Fine with me.
16) July 26, 2006: My problem here is that you want to write that every single Israeli action is in retaliation for something. Well, would you allow me to write that every Palestinian attack is in retaliation for something? Because both Israelis and Palestinians feel this way, their papers report it this way, different scholars argue it this way. I know you want to justify every strike as "retaliatory" or as a "counter-offensive", but that is a POV. Equally, arguing that every Palestinian rocket attack was "in reponse" to an Israeli attack is a POV, nonetheless, that is exactly what Palestinian papers write, and what Palestinian militants claim. Both are POV's. Using the logic of "in response to", every action taken by either side is "in response" to aggression by the other side. My point, is that you think that the Arabs always act, Israel reacts. You think this is a truism, well it's not, it's a POV; Can we at least agree on this?
17) Summer Rains: Would you allow me to write that Shalit's kidnapping was in response to the abduction of the two Palestinian brothers?
18) September 2006, your survey is from 2003, with the fast-changing political situation in this conflict, it is way outdated.
19) The "source" you provided me about Israeli aid to the Palestinians, in fact, didn't mention anything to that effect at all; I do read what you give me man. So I'm still unaware of this "aid" you speak of. Second, the EU doesn't have anything to do with Karni, and Israel still retains overriding control of Rafah, the links I provided show this. If you claim otherwise, don't tell me "I read this and I read that", you have to show me. Third, given the financial/political crisis right now, it's important to note that 165,000 Palestinians in Gaza (something like a quarter of the workforce) haven't got paid in over 6 months; this is why there is rioting and so forth right now, you don't think it's important to note that the PA cannot afford to pay it's own employees for half a year? Last: you have not provided a source for your claim that commentators blame the PA for witholding billions of dollars, the one in your edit was about weapons smuggling, not PA money hoarding. But I do think we should definitely write here that weapons smuggling had increased dramatically since the disengagement.
20) Those www.conceptwizard.com links make wikipedia look foolish. They are nothing but propoganda, there is no equivalent Arab propoganda link here, and I wouldn't accept it even if there was, these have to go, they insult the integrity and credibility of this site.
1940-1949
Lehi (group) (also known as the Stern Gang) attacks British targets in Palestine. 1944-1948 the Irgun and then Haganah join in on anti-British attacks.
This a correct description. Simply adding a "book" is not a ref. Also you're mistaking with 1944 and 1945. If you want to talk about the period where both Arabs and Jews attacked each other, it's a differnet time... you can read the relevant articles. Amoruso 09:27, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Shamir, this is absurd. You come back with nothing except arguments and POV's. You present absolutely no sources for you claims at all, in fact, you consistently refuse to do so. I'm asking something very basic of you, to source your claims, and you cannot do this.
A student of history
18:29, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
This article suffers from bias due to a complete narrative of one side but almost zilch (comparatively) from the Palestinian side. For every attack on Israelis, there were 8767868798076434452345678909876543w4534563564675674435434564678567567845646745674657465745646546546464646464646464675674567465744534563456354634563456367456678909876 attacks on Palestinians give or take. That only Palestinian attacks are listed here like some sort of propaganda list is not very neutral. Also, some sentences are in the present tense, and others in the past. There are also many inaccuracies, such as the PLO sending a letter to Shamir in 1988 (never happened, it was a letter to Rabin in 1993). Needs a lot of fixing. -Scott
-- Shamir1 01:02, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Proof of your ineptitude, and lack of respect as well as lack of knowledge, is that you reverted incorrect information, for example, that the PLO sent a letter to Israel in 1988. If you cannot verify your edits, don't re-add them. Either way, watch who you call an idiot, I'm new but I can learn fast, and report you if necessary. -Scott
1- Before 1948, the place was called Palestine. Saying it was called Land of Israel (sometimes known as the region of Palestine) is distortion of fact and reads like the article was written by a militia group. 2- Since when have Palestinian rioters ever been referred to as "sunni Muslims" in lieu of being called "Palestinians"? What kind of nonsense is this? And Palestinian rioters very often include Christians, merely judging from the number of Christians that have been killed by the Israeli army.
3- The narrative for the Palestinian refugee problem differs depending on who you ask, and I tried to make that clear but you just reverted to the the militant zionist version - not the Israeli version, the militant zionist version. 4- Transjordan became Jordan in 1946, so it couldn't have been Transjordan that invaded Palestine in 1948. 5- The "local Arabs" were already at war with the Yishuv before 1948. 6- THere is no evidence that foreign Christians were banned from visiting Jerusalem - or foreign Jews for that matter - how would the Jordanian authorities even know the religion of the foreigners? 7- It is very very well known that Israeli soldiers were guarding the entrances to Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps - why else was Sharon found responsible for the massacre? Yet you chose to remove this clear-as-day fact from my edits. 8- Events attributed to December 14 1988 completely predate the actual events by 6-10 years, but you just changed it back to what it was previously with slight "merges" that still returned the section to complete nonsense. 9- How could the 1988 "first suicide attack" be called one when there was no knowledge if the attacker intended to die, notwithstanding the fact that he lived? 10- The fact that Sharon had 1000 policemen with him when he visited the mount was an overwhelming reason for the riots - he made his "visit" look like an incursion. Yet you conveniently removed mention of the 1000 policemen. 11- The Palestinian attacks in Israel declined by 90% NOT in 2002 when the wall was being built, but much later as Hamas signed a ceasefire (or agreed to one) with then prime minister Mahmoud Abbas. To state that "Wall was built, terror fell by 90%" just like that is incredibly misleading. -Scott
It was known as Palestine. Stamps, money, etc said "Palestine" in English, Hebrew, and Arabic, and aleph-yod initials in Hebrew as well. But it was not mainly called "Land of Israel" and only sometimes called Palestine, that's reversal of facts.
Have to check, I was sure it was 1946
Yes, perhaps, but the article also mentions Christians and again, that can't be true because of tourist attractions and also, how would the Jordanians know the religion of tourists?
The fact that the camp was surrounded by Israeli soldiers is an integral part of the story. Omitting it is dishonest, whether you like it or not.
It got the US to talk to him, which was a big deal back then.
Unless you have a source for this, I don't see how you can speculate.
The number is true and is in many reports of the incident. A thousand policeman guard was seen as very provocative. Again, whether you like it or not.
Amoruso 19:23, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
To scott learn how to sign comments if you wish further discussions. Amoruso 21:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
The thousand policeman thing is very relevant, Palestine was known widely as just that - not EI except in initials on official documents next to "Mimshalat Falastin" in Hebrew, and since you were not kind enough to show me how to sign comments, I do not wish to continue discussions. With people of your bias around, Wikipedia is a joke anyway. Have fun with it. -Scott
I repeatedly posted sources for this. They did not begin in 1940, as currently claimed (and unsourced I might add), they began earlier in or around 1936-1937. I posted the links to a virtual archive of the Palestine Post, which documented these attacks. This is known as a primary source, bombs in Arab markets killed over 100 people in a single day on several occasions, these were major incidents that made headlines in many papers at the time. The links to the Palestine Post archive in above somewhere. I also noticed that someone removed these incidents from the Timeline. So, I suppose that "An Israeli woman is killed by Jordanian infiltrators" is worthwhile (for some asinine reason) to be on a timeline, but bombs killing over 100 Arabs is not? Is that the way this "timeline" is?
http://jic.tau.ac.il/Archive/skins/PalestineP/navigator.asp?AW=1169534055109 Here is one issue of the Palestine Post showing that attacks against Arabs began at least as early at 1938. I will try to find earlier issues showing they began earlier, because I know they did, but this involves me doing considerable research through these archives. I will do it at a later date.
I also have major issues with the sourcing here. There are several locations where statements are made and the sources attached to them have absolutely nothing to do with the statement, I removed one such instance earlier. Some people still don't understand at all how to use sources. First, WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A SOURCE! Just because something is writting on another wiki page, doesn't necessarily make it true. Get a source. Second, an opinion is not a source. So just because a scholar renders an opinion, doesn't make it a fact. Third, primary sources ARE factual. As in the issue I talked about in the above paragraph; I posted links to primary source from the Palestine Post which is primary evidence of Lehi/Irgun attacks occurring in the late 30's, and Shamir1 deleted them. I don't want to get into a war, but some people here need to understand some fundamentals of sourcing. If you don't know what a primary source is, do some reading. The best way for everybody here to resolve our issues is to set a standard for sourcing.
The standard for sources should be high, because this is supposed to be an encyclopedia remember? So, as in any print encyclopedia, we should restrict ourselves to 'scholarly' sources. That means primary sources where possible, if not things like good newspapers (like the NY Times or Ha'aretz for example). Opinions are not sources, even if the people rendering those opinions have Ph.D's. As well, sources need to be current. Example: A poll indicating public sentiments among Israelis or Palestinians; you can't take a poll taken back in 2000 or 2003 and use this as a current example. Anybody even removelty familiar with these sorts of things know how fickle public opinion is and how drastically it can change virtually overnight. A student of history 20:32, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Look Shamir, you have got to stop writing on this page if you refuse to keep on falsifying things. The Mitchell Report clearly states: "we have no basis on which to conclude that there was a deliberate plan by the PA to initiate a campaign of violence ", You can read it here: http://www.nodo50.org/csca/english/informe_mitchel_5-01-eng.html. For someone who claims their knowledge to be "quite advanced", you ought to do a your research please. This is supposed to be an encyclopaedia, hold yourself to a higher standard. A student of history 17:24, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Shamir, to say that the Balfour declaration promised the Jews all of Mandatory Palestine is one interpretation, and one which is not supported by hardly any literature. The declaration does not specify the size nor the area of the future "Jewish National Home". To say that when the British partitioned off Tranjordan was land "allocated for the Jewish state" is 1) a POV, and 2) a minority one at that.
This is interpreting the Balfour declaration in a very specific context. Your source from Jewishvirtuallibrary (ie. Mitchell Bard) is not something authoritative here. All you are sourcing is a particular interpretation and POV (that of Bard), ie. you are sourcing someone's opinion. Opinions are not facts, the Jewish virtual library can be used for sources like primary documents and stuff, but when you simply use it to reference an opinion, it does not work. One of the big issues under the Mandate was the extent of the "Jewish national home", how big it was going to be, and was it even going to be a sovereign state. You are claiming that a minority, narrow opinion is a fact, and it is not. Sorry, that line is not even close to being either factual, neutral or worth being on the timeline. 131.202.32.5 12:50, 14 March 2007 (UTC) (A student of history)
The Sanremo document has little bearing on the issue here, which is the partition of Transjordan. There are those here who want the entry to state that all of Palestine was designated for a future Jewish state. The 1922 White Paper well establishes this is not true, you are right about article 25 of the Sanremo text pertaining to Transjordan, however, I just don't think we need to get into a discussion about this document here is all.
I will try to find a reliable source for this, as I believe it to be true, I don't think it's a POV, different bodies have done studies confirming this, I just need to do a little research to find them again. But until I do, I will leave it out. Things should be sourced after all. A student of history 14:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Shamir1, another thing. You have to stop putting down "in response to" or "amidst constant rocket fire" and such. These statements qualify Israeli actions as retaliatory, while you (or anyone) never writes the same for Palestinian actions, such as "amidst Israeli raids" or "in response to recent incursions" and such. We simply state what happened. Because just as you can justify every Israeli action as being in response to something, so can others justify Palestinian actions as being in response to an Israeli attack. That is your POV Shamir1. It is your opinion that everything Israel does is "amidst rocket fire" and such, but other people see it differently. They, for instance, Palestinian rockets into Israeli "in response" to incursions, shelling, kidnappings, closures, and such... The point is, we do not let those opinions enter here. Thank you. A student of history 23:59, 22 March 2007 (UTC)