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In 897 Charles the Simple was not yet in control of Narbonne, since he only ascended to the throne of West Francia in 898. At least the date must be in error. -- Eliyahu S Talk 17:59, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
The only references from a Google search to this claim seem to point back to this article. I would have expected this event to be recorded in the detailed Narbonne article in the Jewish Encyclopedia: "Narbonne". and it is not.
Please cite the source. patsw ( talk) 19:25, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
I have removed the dubious claims as unsourced. Since there are numerous appearances of this in Google searches of this claim as a consequence of this entry, please provide a reliable source which pre-dates Wikipedia references to it, should you be inclined to reenter it. This sort of claim is common for a WP:CIRC reference. patsw ( talk) 17:32, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
Text was removed (again) by User:PaddyMacConghaile referencing status of Dhimmi and imposition of jizya with the comment Jizya and practices against dhimmis are not targeted towards Jews specifically.
They are in themselves anti-semitic regardless of the presence of other groups likewise victimized by these practices. Jews were treated with intolerance, hostility, discrimination, and prejudice as a consequence of it. Is that disputed? patsw ( talk) 23:54, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
Is the imposition of the Dhimmi status and jizya upon Jews antisemitism? (earlier discussion on talk page) patsw ( talk) 16:03, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
Rusi Jaspal's Antisemitism and Anti-Zionism: Representation, Cognition and Everyday TalkIt is widely accepted that under Islam the Jewish community of Spain briefly enjoyed a “Golden Age.” However, it is far less widely understood that Muslim, Christian, and Jewish legal and historical sources indicate that favorable treatment violated medieval Islamic law and also that even under the best circumstances, Jews remained subject to the vicissitudes of their condition as dhimmis (“protected” non-Muslims). If there was brief good treatment, it was because of tactical needs of particular Muslim rulers, not legal considerations.
...
As the Maliki school of medieval Islamic law prescribed, Jews were forced to pay the Muslim rulers of al-Andalus the jizya, a yearly poll tax intended not only as the price of their being ahlu dhimma (people of “protection” or simply al dhimma or dhimmis), but also as a sign of their humiliation before Islam.
Jesse Weinberg's The End of Eden: Anti-Semitism in Iraq, 1917, 1951dhimmi status ... meant that they were tolerated and protected as an official minority provided that they accepted a subordinate and inferior status to Muslims (Lazarus-Yafeh, 1999; Poliakov, 1974).
I think these sources are establishing, and I will include a description of dhimma to the article if there is not further objection. Zanahary ( talk) 06:27, 14 February 2024 (UTC)Anti-Judaism, a contempt for Judaism on religious grounds, evolved in Iraq from sentiments about ahl al-dhimma, non-Muslims under Islamic rule.
...
When Jews supervised Muslims or failed to act like dhimmīs (protected non-Muslims), attacks on Jews increased to ‘correct’ the hierarchy.
...
Successive rulers imposed laws to distinguish dhimmī as lower subjects. Jews could not bear arms, serve in war, ride saddled horses, or worship in public, and paid a poll tax, the jizya.
...
Protection of dhimmīs, rather than an innocent plot of heroism, self-flattery or an example of tolerance, was in fact a myth to perpetuate inequality and create an unequal society, in which Muslims subjugated non-Muslims and ruled them. Rules that imposed prohibitions to make Jews low – discriminatory taxes, sumptuary laws, prohibitions against leadership roles and relegation to demeaning jobs that were socially scorned – stemmed from the same tropes Muslim heroics derived from: Jews were weak, incapable and beneath Muslims. Anti-Judaism was not a normal prejudice, just as Stillman contends. The prejudice was preserved in hallowed texts, the inequality was considered sacrosanct, and the stereotypes and taboos continued long after the initial purpose, to convince believers of Islam, had ceased.
...
These distinctions conveyed dhimmī status – incorporated and low. Jews were expected to behave as dhimmīs...
When the people who are "humbled" by Muslims are Christian, it is anti-Christian. When the people who are "humbled" by Muslims are Jews, it is antisemitic. When the people who are "humbled" by Muslims are Hindus, it is anti-Hundu. Is that disputed? patsw ( talk) 02:06, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
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This page has archives. Sections older than 28 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 3 sections are present. |
In 897 Charles the Simple was not yet in control of Narbonne, since he only ascended to the throne of West Francia in 898. At least the date must be in error. -- Eliyahu S Talk 17:59, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
The only references from a Google search to this claim seem to point back to this article. I would have expected this event to be recorded in the detailed Narbonne article in the Jewish Encyclopedia: "Narbonne". and it is not.
Please cite the source. patsw ( talk) 19:25, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
I have removed the dubious claims as unsourced. Since there are numerous appearances of this in Google searches of this claim as a consequence of this entry, please provide a reliable source which pre-dates Wikipedia references to it, should you be inclined to reenter it. This sort of claim is common for a WP:CIRC reference. patsw ( talk) 17:32, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
Text was removed (again) by User:PaddyMacConghaile referencing status of Dhimmi and imposition of jizya with the comment Jizya and practices against dhimmis are not targeted towards Jews specifically.
They are in themselves anti-semitic regardless of the presence of other groups likewise victimized by these practices. Jews were treated with intolerance, hostility, discrimination, and prejudice as a consequence of it. Is that disputed? patsw ( talk) 23:54, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
Is the imposition of the Dhimmi status and jizya upon Jews antisemitism? (earlier discussion on talk page) patsw ( talk) 16:03, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
Rusi Jaspal's Antisemitism and Anti-Zionism: Representation, Cognition and Everyday TalkIt is widely accepted that under Islam the Jewish community of Spain briefly enjoyed a “Golden Age.” However, it is far less widely understood that Muslim, Christian, and Jewish legal and historical sources indicate that favorable treatment violated medieval Islamic law and also that even under the best circumstances, Jews remained subject to the vicissitudes of their condition as dhimmis (“protected” non-Muslims). If there was brief good treatment, it was because of tactical needs of particular Muslim rulers, not legal considerations.
...
As the Maliki school of medieval Islamic law prescribed, Jews were forced to pay the Muslim rulers of al-Andalus the jizya, a yearly poll tax intended not only as the price of their being ahlu dhimma (people of “protection” or simply al dhimma or dhimmis), but also as a sign of their humiliation before Islam.
Jesse Weinberg's The End of Eden: Anti-Semitism in Iraq, 1917, 1951dhimmi status ... meant that they were tolerated and protected as an official minority provided that they accepted a subordinate and inferior status to Muslims (Lazarus-Yafeh, 1999; Poliakov, 1974).
I think these sources are establishing, and I will include a description of dhimma to the article if there is not further objection. Zanahary ( talk) 06:27, 14 February 2024 (UTC)Anti-Judaism, a contempt for Judaism on religious grounds, evolved in Iraq from sentiments about ahl al-dhimma, non-Muslims under Islamic rule.
...
When Jews supervised Muslims or failed to act like dhimmīs (protected non-Muslims), attacks on Jews increased to ‘correct’ the hierarchy.
...
Successive rulers imposed laws to distinguish dhimmī as lower subjects. Jews could not bear arms, serve in war, ride saddled horses, or worship in public, and paid a poll tax, the jizya.
...
Protection of dhimmīs, rather than an innocent plot of heroism, self-flattery or an example of tolerance, was in fact a myth to perpetuate inequality and create an unequal society, in which Muslims subjugated non-Muslims and ruled them. Rules that imposed prohibitions to make Jews low – discriminatory taxes, sumptuary laws, prohibitions against leadership roles and relegation to demeaning jobs that were socially scorned – stemmed from the same tropes Muslim heroics derived from: Jews were weak, incapable and beneath Muslims. Anti-Judaism was not a normal prejudice, just as Stillman contends. The prejudice was preserved in hallowed texts, the inequality was considered sacrosanct, and the stereotypes and taboos continued long after the initial purpose, to convince believers of Islam, had ceased.
...
These distinctions conveyed dhimmī status – incorporated and low. Jews were expected to behave as dhimmīs...
When the people who are "humbled" by Muslims are Christian, it is anti-Christian. When the people who are "humbled" by Muslims are Jews, it is antisemitic. When the people who are "humbled" by Muslims are Hindus, it is anti-Hundu. Is that disputed? patsw ( talk) 02:06, 25 January 2024 (UTC)