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please we have to Learn from Afar people we have Ethiopian Afar Eritrean Afar Djibouti Afar.
Tigray is not only the name of the please or the Region it is also the name of the Ethnic group Ethiopian Tigray and Eritrean Tigray Just like Afar and Kunama .it is quit easy. Belay HAile Selassie
The history of this page was destroyed due to some unfortunate circumstances with the name disagreement, so here is the history of the page before Merhawie's move: History of Tigray people.
I believe "Tigray" is only used for the region, "Tigrean" or "Tigrayan" for the people. -- MikeGasser (talk) 03:58, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Response to Yom: "Tigray people" could be used for an article about the people of Tigray. It would be inaccurate and offensive to use "Tigray people" as a title for an article which includes the Tigrigna speaking people of Eritrea. If the purpose of generalizing a name is to be less offensive, then using "Tigray people" as a title would obviously defeat the purpose as it would prove offensive to an Eritrean. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.186.212.253 ( talk • contribs) 14:58, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
To Sinaiticus: The Tigre language is derived mainly from Ge'ez, the greatest influence to Tigre is Arabic, thus making it probably the most Semitic of all languages which originated in Ge'ez. Agew languages contributed mostly to Amharic but also to the many Tigrigna dialects spoken in the areas close to the land of the Agews (southern Tigray). The Tigre who inhabit northern
Eritea had very little contact with Agew related people with the exception of the Bilen in Keren. Their contacts were mainly with the Bejas but the extent of Beja vocabulary in the Tigre language is not what you claim it is and some would even claim that Tigre influenced the vocabulary of the Beja clans (Hedareb and Haddendoa specifically) more than vice versa. What is more,
the Bejas are not an Agew related people, they are a North Cushitic people who mainly inhabit northern Sudan, Libya and Egypt as opposed to the Agew who are a Central Cushitic people.
To Sinaiticus: There is no such thing as "Tigrawee" whether in English or in Tigrigna. Someone from Tigray is called Tigraway (Tigra-why) as a male and Tigraweyti (Tigra-weighty) as a female and Tegaru in plural. In English perhaps one could use the term Tigrayan for both males and females and Tigrayans for plural.
To add some more confusion into the mix, I have always called Tigrinya speakers Tigré (rhymes with "ray," not "rye"), and this is how my mother (whose mother is Tigray/Tigré/Tigrayan/Tigrean/whatever) has always referred to them. In fidel, the pronounciation would be written ትግሬ, though I'm not sure how she actually writes the word. Wrt to "Tigrayan," I can see how Eritreans might reject such a labeling since they want to differentiate themselves from Ethiopians.
As to the ትግሬ (Tigre in Eritrea), I've never heard that they have a lot of Beja words. I know there are a significant number (over 100,000, Orville says 206,000, and this might be where I got my information) of Beja who speak Tigre, but I've heard that Tigre is in fact just as close if not closer to Ge'ez than Tigrinya, varying from Tigrinya basically in endings (they don't have all the -i endings) and derivations from different Ge'ez roots (i.e. if there's two ways to say x, then Tigre kept way 1 only, and Tigrinya kept way 2 only). I know it has a lot of Arabic influence.
Yom 19:45, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
WRT to Sinaiticus, Tigrayan would be objectionable to an Eritrean 'Tigrinya' because we are different group from the Tigray of Tigray. Remember that Tigray the province has no existed as long as the language Tigrinya and they obviously cannot be used interchangably. Futhermore the Province of Tigray never encompassed an area that included all of the Tigrinya of Eritrea. For more than a century the destinies of the Eritrean Tigrinya and the Ethiopian Tigrayans have been separate. Also recall that the Tigrayan Liberation Front (TPLF) was fighting for the liberation of the province of Tigray with a vision for a Greater Tigray but this was not based on the Tigrinya speaking people of Eritrea who favored the Nationalist Eritrean People's Liberation Front and Eritrean Liberation Front.
As an Eritrean Tigrinya I have always referred to Eritrean Tigrinya as 'Tigrinya' and Ethiopian 'Tigrayans' as 'Tigrayans'. Both my father and mother are Eritrean Tigrinya. Merhawie 19:56, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Tigray are Ethiopians from the northern Ethiopian province of Tigraya. Tigrinya is a language the people of Tigraya speak but it’s also used to refer to the Tigrinya speaking ethnic group in Eritrea. Nadeana 20:34, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I would question whether the combined term "Tigrayan-Tigrinya" is really used very often (and for that matter, whether Jenkins' website is very scholarly: "a greater distinction between their distinct ethnicities" is rather clumsy writing, to these eyes). However, I do agree that the combined term is more neutral. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 08:46, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
I think we have a case where there isn't any clear English convention, but we do have pretty good evidence after all of this discussion of what the conventions are within the Tigrinya-speaking communities themselves, with Tigrinya now being used in Eritrea for a people and not just a language. As Merhawie says, the word Tigray, whatever else it may sometimes mean in English, refers to a province in Ethiopia, which postdates the language and never encompassed the whole region where the language is spoken. I think this is a case where we should defer to the conventions within the community of speakers themselves; this would (hopefully) avoid offending anyone. And those conventions would lead us to refer to the ethnicity as Tigray/Tigrinya or Tigrayan/Tigrinya. Or (I hate to stir things up, but I guess we should be considering all possibilities), should there be separate articles for two different ethnicities that share a language? To take an extreme example, there is no Wikipedia article for the various English-speaking peoples around the world, even for those whose ancestors were English. -- MikeGasser (talk) 16:00, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
The 8th to 10th century manuscripts in which this inscription is preserved have some explanatory glosses about some of these names; thus Gaze apparently means the Aksumites, still called Agaze, the Siguene are the Suskinitai, the tribes near Adulis are called the Tigretes (the earliest mention of Tigray?)
To Yom: If the manuscript refers to a tribe living near Adulis then it was probably not referring to the "Tigray people" or to Tigray. The term "Tigretes" does not automatically translate into Tigray people or Tigray. It could have been ancestors of the Tigre, or even Tigrigna speaking peoples, not necessarily associated with the province of Tigray.
Since no one has made any contributions to this page in a bit I thought that I would assess what has been said. Here is the list of people that have contributed to this conversation so far, and the way they seem to be leaning for the title:
Its seems that the overriding preference is to maintain an article in reference to both groups (Tigrinya and Tigrayan) combined but to use a more neutral combined name such as Tigrayan-Tigrinya or Tigrinya-Tigrayan. So if there arent any concerns, I will change the name of this page to...."Tigrinya-Tigrayan" tomorrow afternoon.
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Tigray-Tigrinya_people"
FOR some reason i find women from eritrea more beautiful than ethiopian women. maybe it's just me. anyone want to comment? —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
209.244.31.165 (
talk •
contribs) 20:59, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I. in Eritrea only
-Not to be confused with -
II - Ethiopia
-- ፈቃደ ( ውይይት) 19:23, 31 March 2006 (UTC) Edited Merhawie 19:58, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
My understanding is that the Tigray are overwhelmingly Ethiopian Orthodox, with very few Muslims and very few converts to P'ent'ay among them (this may be completely different from Tigrinya speakers in Eritrea). However, this is based purely on hearsay. I am wondering if someone can cite a source that confirms or denies this, before we add such a statement to the article? -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:04, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I noticed this on accident, but when I copied and pasted the text from the old version of "Tigray people" to "Tigray-Tigrinya," the diff. of the two versions shows that Merhawie started changing the orders of Eritrea to come before Ethiopia. While I think alphabetical order and prominence should be more important (i.e. Eritrea, Ethiopia for popplace, but Ethio orthodox before Eri since more are members of the former), I don't want this to result in an edit war. The order it is in now seems to me to be fine, and I would posit that we simply leave it in this order and also the same order as when any additions are made, with the only exception where it clearly makes sense to put one in front of the other or in the case of a massive overhaul of the article, where it first explains Tigrays in Ethiopia and then Tigrinya in Eritrea (or vice-versa) and then the two groups as a whole. OTherwise, it would be best not to start an edit war over this and just leave the orders be.
Also, Merhawie, why did you remove the picture? You may object to it as he was the Emperor of Ethiopia, but he is a prominent Tigray-Tigrinya and an acceptable choice for a picture to represent the ethnic group (also it's very old so the copywright has expired).
On an unrelated note, should citations go outside of the period of the sentence or inside?
Actually I looked at a few people articles ( Kurds, Hausas, Igbos), and it seems that the popplace should be in order of population, so I'm going to put Ethiopia first again. Apparently it is the total number that is important and not the percentage, since Turkey comes before Iraq for Kurds, even though it's 15% of Iraq's population vs. 12.5% of Turkey's.
I am the one who removed the picture, because Yohannes IV does NOT represent our ethnic group, he represents a political force which along with his chief cohort Alula Abanega committed genocide on our people in the late 19th century, like puttting up a picture of Hitler to represent German ethnicity, an absolutely disgusting choice. You couldn't find a better example of a picture like people wearing traditional costumes, playing krar and keboro and dancing around in a ring typical of the Tigrayan and Biher-Tigrigna? Even putting up an Axum monument would have been slightly inaccurate (since it is a legacy common to all Abyssinian peoples that predates the Biher-Tigrigna/Tigrayan ethnicity) but much less insensitive!
Hitler did not committ genocide on Germans he committed genocide on Jews who are an unrelated people. So I guess using that kind of racist logic it would be entirely appropriate to put up Hitlers picture to represent Germans? "Emperor" Yohannes IV like many other "Emperors" before him CLAIMED to be ruler over many territories thereamong the areas populated by Tigrigna speakers in present day Eritrea. These territories were never effectively united under one Empire so the legitimacy of such a claim is in question. Precolonial Africa did not consist of nationstates with clear boundaries, it consisted of realms of influence which constantly changed. Resistance to Yohannes IV's rule was rife in many areas of his "Empire" thereamong the Tigrinya speaking region of present day Eritrea then known as Medri Bahri (in Abyssinia" Mereb Mellash or Bahr Negash), and this could be a possible explanation as to why he ended up betrayed in his own "Empire" to the Sudanese who decapitated his skull and still have it on display in the National Museum of Khartoum. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.186.212.253 ( talk • contribs) 14:16, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
"he's the best example of a Tigrinya speaking person that we have" you must be joking to say that,thats why berhanu chopped his head off,his old loyal jeberti commander till yohannes started butchering his fellow jeberti to please his fanatic priests.who ever said that only 5% of tigray are muslims are you people on drugs?just like tigrenya in eritrea is 50% of the population and are 100% christians.i cant believe some of you still get information from cia websites and produce it here claiming its the truth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yaya7 ( talk • contribs) 05:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
1. A person from Tigray speaks Tigrigna (Tigrinya) and is a Tigrayan in English, or Tigraway (-way pronounced "why") for the masculine singular and Tigraweyti (-weyti pronounced as "weigh-tee") for the feminine singular or Tegaru ("tegah-roo" emphasis on "roo") for the plural in Tigrigna. I do not know where "Tigrawee" comes from (which language) but it is not a phonetic rendition of anything remotely Tigrigna nor does the suffix "-wee" make any sense in English.
2. As an Eritrean of the Tigrigna-speaking ethnicity I would like to inform you that our official definition as a people is Biher-Tigrigna NOT simply "Tigrigna". Biher-Tigrigna means roughly -the Tigrigna ethnicity-, Biher meaning ethnicity. Eritrea is home to nine "Biherat" (plural of Biher), nine ethnicities, one of which is the Biher-Tigrigna.
3. The prefix or title Biher is important when denoting Tigrigna speakers as opposed to our language because of the nature of the word Tigrigna itself. Since this word is taken directly from Tigrigna (the language) and is not an anglicised construct, it carries its own exact meaning according to the Tigrigna grammar which can not be confused with English words or constructs that apply equally to nation-states and languages (like the word "English" for example). Tigrigna is specifically a language not a people. To denote the Eritrean people who are its native speakers, start with the Tigrigna word for ethnicity which is "Biher".
Ex. I am Biher-Tigrigna and I speak Tigrigna.
4. Biher-Tigrigna is both a noun and an adjective, both singular and plural (but like "people" or "hair") is a singlar word which can denote plurality as well as singularity and it is applicable to both sexes: I am Biher-Tigrigna and so is she hence we belong to the Biher-Tigrigna which numbers about 2 million (my own guesstimate).
5. No other Eritrean ethnicities need to be adressed "Biher" other than for formalities sake, since their names do correspond with the name of their language. The Tigre people speak Tigre for example. The Tigre and the Beja contributed vicabulary to eachother's languages while Arabic influenced them both. But the Beja language is NOT an Agew language. Infact Beja is in an entirely different branch of the Cushitic language family than Agew. Beja is a North Cushitic language while Agew is Central Cushitic, just like Bilen (with whom you must have either the Tigre or Bilen mixed up).
If official definitions do not determine what you use for the English article, what does? What your Eritrean friend told you? No offense to him or her or you but this "criteria" of yours seems a little flimsy at best. No one says "Ane Tigrigna iye" in Eritrea it is absurd, the correct way to refer to oneself is "ane biher Tigrigna iye". Indeed "Biher" is derived from the Ge'ez word for nation, and the original meaning of nation is not state, but an ethnically homogenous population (as in the Zulu nation who inhabit six states all in all). I am not sure when the term "Biher Tigrigna" was coined, but it was taught in school while under Ethiopian occupation (the nine ethnicities of Eritrea). I admit it is very "academical" and seldom used in an everyday context where expressions like "Hamasienai", "Seroetai" or "deqi khebesa" abound. This brings me to why the Biher-Tigrigna do not call ourselves Tegaru or Tigraway. It would be as inaccurate as calling someone from Tembien "Hamassienai". To be a "Tigraway" doesn't mean ethnicity or tribe to us, it means geography: to be a citizen of the province of Tigray, which we thankfully are not! {{subst:untitled2:15:46, 5 July 2006|24.186.212.253}}
Yom, you may know the answer but anyone else should go ahead if they know. How do the modern boundaries of the Tigray region of Ethiopia relate to the current distribution of Tigrinya speakers. Similarly how do the current boundaries of Tigray relate to the historical boundaries of Tigray. This may or may not clarify a sentence in the article text. -- Merhawie 15:56, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the two statements below regarding the Jebertis, as both are factually false. First off, Muslim Tigrinya speakers (whatever that means) aren't called Biher-Tigrinya as that is insulting to their heritage. Plus they aren't unofficially known as Jebertis. They have ALWAYS been known as Jebertis; and have a long and distinct history that began with the arrival of the companions of Prophet Muhammad to Abyssinia. They were named Jebertis by the Prophet himself (see main Jeberti article) and remained so for more than 1400+ years. There are many Jebertis who lived throughout this time and were known distinctly as Jebertis. One such example of this is the great Egyptian historian Al-Jabarti (meaning the one who is a Jeberti), who was of Jeberti descent. The inclusion of Jebertis is a conspiracy by the government of Eritrea (GOE) to boost the number of Tigrinya Christians. The Tigrinya has always been used to identify Tigrinya-speaking Christians. By adding the Jebertis into the fold, the GOE is then able to maintain the religious balance of 50% Muslims-50% Christians in the country. By count the Jebertis as Muslim on the sole basis of linguistical affiliation, the government is able to claim clamp down on the Muslims and deny them their rights (such as the right to learn their OTHER LANGUAGE Arabic)! The two statements that I removed are:
"In Eritrea, officially, any ethnic Tigrinya is known as Bihér-Tigrinya regardless of their religion."
"In Eritrea, Muslim speakers of Tigrinya are known unofficially as Jebertis."
More info can be found on this site [ http://www.jeberti.com/index.php?subaction=showfull&id=1120530126&archive=1121969170&start_from=&ucat=&jeberti=news
Jeberti as an ethnic group] 74.118.111.76 05:52, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
"MPlease it is time for as Tigreans and Eritreans to come together like our glorious ancestors of Axum and Adulis! What would Aste Yohanes, Alula Aba Nega, Ras Weldemicheal and Bahri Negash say when their sons and daughters of Tigray-Tigrigna fighting over worthless things. This entire problem has arisen from the mistakes of Amhara War lords who sold Eritrea to Italians dividing the mighty People of Tigray-Tigrigna in to two. Badme belongs to both people of Tigray and Eritrea.[(Tigreans=Eritreans)- --->Tigray-Tigrigna] Alitena, Tesorona, Zalambesa and the HOLE OF TIGRAY AND ERITREA BELONG TO THE PEOPLE OF TIGRAY-TIGRIGNA!!! So please it is time for us to come to realize our past that we are one people and join hand with hand to unite our divided people in to one! Peace to the People of Tigray and Eritrea! We are one! Let's stop the hatred for we are hating ourselves and our great ancestors of Axum and Adulis. This message is directed to both peoples of Tigray and Eritrea (That is to Tigray-Tigrigna for we are the same! The time has come to realize our destiny as one people.LONG LIVE PEOPLE OF TIGRAY-TIGRIGNA!!!" http://www.topix.net/forum/et/tigray/T2OG0PNNBQUEOPTVP —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.53.77.220 ( talk • contribs) 00:46, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{ Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 17:00, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Would you say the image at the bottom right of this page: http://www.travel-images.com/eritrea3.html represents correctly a typical Tigrinya woman?
I have moved the following comments from the article space. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:32, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Axum, or Aksum, is a city in northern Ethiopia named after the Kingdom of Aksum, a naval and trading power that ruled from the region ca. 1000 BC into the 10th century. The kingdom was occasionally referred to in medieval writings as "Ethiopia".
Located in the Mehakelegnaw Zone of the Tigray Region near the base of the Adwa mountains, the city has an elevation of 2,130 metres. It was the centre of the (eventual) Christian marine trading power the Aksumite Kingdom, which predated the earliest mentions in Roman era writings (around the time of the birth of Jesus) in good correlation to the expansion of Rome into northern Africa, and later when it developed into the Christian kingdom, was a quasi-ally of Byzantium against the day's Persian Empire. The historical record is unclear, primary sources being in the main limited to ancient church records. There are no evidences that Axumites considered themselves as Tigres or Tigreans. They spoke the ancient language of Ethiopia and Eritrea called "Ge'ez" and also Classical Greek. Therefore we must realize that Axum was an independent State which was certainly culturally and ethnically not "Tigrean" but rather cosmopolitic.
It is believed it began a long slow decline after the 7th century due partly to Islamic groups contesting trade routes. Eventually Aksum was cut off from its principal markets in Alexandria, Byzantium and Southern Europe and its trade share was captured by Arab traders of the era. The Kingdom of Aksum also quarreled with Islamic groups over religion. Eventually the people of Aksum were forced south into Shoa and their civilization declined. As the kingdom's power declined so did the influence of the city, which is believed to have lost population in the decline similar to Rome and other cities thrust away from the flow of world events. The last known (nominal) king to reign was crowned ca. 10th century, but the kingdom's influence and power ended long before that.
Its decline in population and trade then contributed to the shift of the power centre of the Ethiopian Empire so that it moved further inland and bequeathed its alternative place name (Ethiopia) to the region, and eventually, the modern state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.76.22.72 ( talk) 02:38, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups#Infobox Images for Ethnic Groups. Gyrofrog (talk) 18:46, 20 January 2011 (UTC) (Using {{ Please see}}) -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:46, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
The usage and primary topic of Tigrinya is under discussion, see talk:Tigrinya language -- 67.70.32.20 ( talk) 07:54, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
Reverted text on mainpage identifying Tigre language as Tigre-Beja. Tigre and Beja are distinct languages. Many Tigre people understand and speak Beja, but they are distinct languages (nor are they dialects). Merhawie ( talk) 14:09, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Move. The consensus is that this is the more common and concise name. Cúchullain t/ c 21:19, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
Tigray-Tigrinya people →
Tigrayans – Per
WP:CONCISE and
WP:COMMONAME. See results from
Google Ngram Viewer, where the phrase "Tigrinya people" is extremely rare -- it does not even show up in the graph. The most common word to refer to the people is "Tigrayans". The word "people" can be eliminated from the title as it's redundant as per
WP:ETHNICGROUP.
Khestwol (
talk)
07:35, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
Please see above discussion. There are strong reasons to not refer to those who speak Tigrigna as a singular "Tigrayan" ethnic group. It is a label only used for those who come from Ethiopia's Tigray province and one rejected by Tigrigna speakers who come from Eritrea. Mesfin ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:52, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus – It appears unlikely than any admin or anyone else will be able to see a consensus in this discussion that's been open for 8 weeks, or in the sections that follow that might be considered related or part of the discussion. If I'm wrong, start a new RM with a crisp proposal and explanation and let us see the consensus. ( non-admin closure) — Dicklyon ( talk) 02:07, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
Tigrayans →
Tigray-Tigrinya people – Please see
above discussion. There are strong reasons to not refer to those who speak Tigrigna as a singular "Tigrayan" ethnic group. It is a label only used for those who come from Ethiopia's
Tigray province and one rejected by Tigrigna speakers who come from
Eritrea.
Mesfin (
talk)
13:18, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
If there is no further issue and or discussion I think the weight of the arguments and opinions favors returning to the prior, long-standing title of "Tigray-Tigrinya". Merhawie ( talk) 21:54, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
I've titled this way to make a point, Tigrayans are their districts which are Agame, Shire, Adowa, Mekele...etc! Eritrea Kebessa(Tigrinya) are Akele Guzaye, Seraye, Hammasien!. So Eritrean Tigrinyas are NOT MEKELE, Nor are they SHire nor Adowa, Nor AGAME which makes ERitrean Tigrinyas are NOT TIGRAYANS!
Wikipedia has allowed itself to be a promoter of the Ethiopian Tigrayans shenangins! Pretty pathetic.
This article was Titled "Tigray-Tigrinya" to encompass the "Tigray" in Ethiopia and the "Tigrinya" in Eritrea. However after some wiki manipulations by some Tigrayan POV agents, its become POV article to satisfy the Tigrayan POVists!
If this is to be only about Ethiopian "TIGRAY" ie "TIGRAYANS" then we should remove any reference to ERITREAN TIGRINYAS.
Eritrean TIgrinyas Do Not See themselves as Tigrayans (Ethiopian Tigrayans).
I recommend, we split this article into "Tigrayans-Ethiopians" and "Eritrean- TIgrinyas". They are not the same people, they have been killing each other for 100s of years. Go read the history books.
2001:558:600A:4B:1C46:2D4D:CD43:A6E9 ( talk) 06:10, 9 April 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:558:600A:4B:1C46:2D4D:CD43:A6E9 ( talk) 06:07, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
Wikipedia follow this link to the Book "Mai Weini, a Highland Village in Eritrea: A Study of the People, Their.." by Kjetil Tronvoll. [1]
In this Book, it explains the ethnic identity of Eritrean Tigrinyas: For example, Eritrean Tigrinya are called officially by the Government of Eritrea as "Biher-Tigrinya", the people in general refer to themselves as either Aliet Tigrinya or Kebessa (Highland) and specifically as Hammasien, Seraye, or Akele Guzay BUT they DO NOT REFER to Themselves as "TIGRAYAN". To an Eritrean TIgrinya, a "TIGRAYAN" is someone from the "TIGRAY" province in Ethiopia. 2001:558:600A:4B:1C46:2D4D:CD43:A6E9 ( talk) 22:59, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
The Notable-Tigray-Tigrinya People part of this Wiki entry needs to remove all the Listed Kings of Axum(AKsum). 2001:558:600A:4B:1C46:2D4D:CD43:A6E9 ( talk) 21:59, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
This would be the equivalent of calling Ancient Roman emperors as Notable modern-day Sicilians even though Ancient Romans could've have been from any of the Groups that formed the Roman Empire. 2001:558:600A:4B:1C46:2D4D:CD43:A6E9 ( talk) 21:59, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
I agree the Axumite(Aksumite) emperors(Kings) were Not only Tigrayans so to classify them as "Notable Tigrayans" is incorrect historically. Most of the Axumite(Aksumite) emperors were Amharas....I think we should delete them from the Notable Tigrayan section. Puhleec ( talk) 10:38, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
Recently Wikipedia changed title of this article to Tigrayans on the ground that two words cannot be used to identify one people with one language and recommended to search for a common one word. For instance there are somali people leaving in many Horn of African countries but when one says "Somalia people" it doesnt mean the somali speaking Djiboutians or Kenyans or Ethiopians or Somalilanders but yet when you say "Somali people" they all agree to this one word name. Tigray-Tigrigna people need to look for a common 1 word name just like the word " Somalis"
Historically non Tigrigna speaking people identify both Eritrean and north Ethiopian Tigrigna speaking people as Tigre (ትግሬ). I am assuming the Ethiopian Tigringa speaking changed it to Tigrayan just like Somali was changed to "Somaliya" or Oromo changed to "Oromiya" while Eritreans on the other hand changed it to "Tigrigna people". So I'm thinking the root word is "ትግሬ" but the problem is when you write it in english script it contradicts with Tigre (ትግረ) ethnicgroup of Eritrea. If you ask any other Ethiopian on how they will identify Ethiopian Tigrigna speaking peoples no one will say "Tigray" but he will say Tigrae (ትግሬ) and will use the term "Tigray" to describe the province found in Ethiopia and also when you ask how do you identify Tigrigna speaking Eritreans he will not say "Tigringa people" but again he will say Tigre (ትግሬ) and will use the term "Tigrigna" to identify the language spoken but not the people because calling people as Tigrigna equals calling Amharas as "Amarigna people".
So instead of writing Tigrayans why not use "Tigrae" to write the Geez script "ትግሬ" to English and avoid the contradiction with the "ትግረ" (Tigre) of Eritrea. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EthiopianHabesha ( talk • contribs) 22:20, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
Amakuru are you still opposed to the proposed title Tigrinyas in spite of the research library notes I made above (preceding the counter-proposal)? The research library assembled a set of reference books on African ethnic groups, and I went through and search for proposed terms. I thought this was better path than the traditional n-gram analysis because I was concerned that geographical descriptions were being confused with ethnic group descriptions. Please let us know what you think?
Merhawie (
talk)
21:54, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus for this suggested rename. Fascinating discussion! (specially that very last part < tic>) Closed with no prejudice, i.e., any new move request that would result from any given proposal made in this discussion is, of course, fine by me. (closed by a page mover) OUR Wikipedia (not "mine")! Paine 08:32, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
Tigrayans → Tigrinyas – Extensive discussion has found the term "Tigrinyas" is more consistent with the description of the culture group described as opposed to other alternatives which are more appropriate for the description of a territory only some Tigrinya speaking people inhabit. Additionally, Tigrinyas does not have any political connotation (as the current title, Tigrayans, does) and seems the most accurate English term used to describe the ethnicity. Since the last move request, opposition comments has been addressed and detailed based on research library references over n-gram analysis which has confused geographical references with ethnic group references (the latter of which is the focus of the article). A well known research library that had a set of reference guides on ethnic groups and searched through each of them for the terms related to this subject. The results are above, but ultimately suggest that the page should be titled based on the language e.g. Tigrinya people. Again, I used this methodology to be as consistent with the Wikipedia policy to choose title that would be most easily referenced while remaining as precise as possible - Tigrayan cannot fit this mandate (too restrictive) while Tigray-Tigrinya cannot either (redundant). Merhawie ( talk) 04:46, 9 May 2016 (UTC) -- Relisting. Anarchyte ( work | talk) 10:53, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
References
I have put an Original Research tag and Citation needed for the List of Axumite(Aksumite) kings listed as "Notable Tigrayans" There is no historical records or evidence that says these Axumite(Aksumite) kings were Tigrayans because they do not meet the criteria of the Ethnic Tigrayan which is Speak Tigrinya and be from Tigray. The Aksumite(Axumite) kings spoke Geez and did NOT refer to themselves as "Tigrayan". Until there is evidence or verifiable sources saying so, I request to delete all the Axumite(Aksumite) kings listed under the Notable Tigrayans. Puhleec ( talk) 00:04, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
I think since adding the Aksumite kings to be part of the Notable Tigrayans is original research on the part of Sennaitgebraim. I will give Sennaitgebremariam to provide verifiable sources stating that the Aksumite kings were Tigrayans, if not I will delete all the Aksumite kings listed under Notable Tigrayans. Sennaitgebremariam, you have 3 Days to provide a verifiable source. Puhleec ( talk) 23:27, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
My argument as well as the argument of historians is that Aksumites can not be referred to as Tigrinya, Tigrayan, Tigre, nor Amhara since these are the Descendants of Aksumites not the otherway around as Sennaitgebremariam is trying to impose with Original Research ie "Since Axum is in Tigray region/province, then it must mean the Aksumites were Tigrayans", this doesn't hold water to the evolution of the language, culture, and religion in this region. I am recommending and will most likely delete the Aksumite Kings listed under the "Notable Tigrayan" section. Since this article is about Tigrayans and Tigrinyas and Not Aksumites. Puhleec ( talk) 00:03, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
Here is an interesting article on the History of Tigre, Tigrinya, and Tigrayan: [1] sources are cited within the Article itself. Puhleec ( talk) 00:06, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
there is a page created Tigrinyas just specific people who speak Tigrinya in Eritrea and can be safely added them. you could do more than distinguish the two pages between Tigrayans ethiopians and Tigrinyas Eritrea, it is okay.
I have DELETED all the AKSUMITE KINGS from your Notable Tigrayan Section as YOU HAVE NOT VERIFIED AND SOURCED ANything That CITED the AKSUMITE Kings as BEING TIGRAYAN! You are VANDALISING by DELETING the HAILE SELASSIE GUGSA (SOURCED, VERIFIED, CITED) Data, I will ADD MORE SOURCES..but the THREE I ADDED are SUFFICIENT AND FAR BEYOND WIKIPEDIA STANDARDS. You are VANDALISING! and yes I am Shouting because WIKIPEDIA ADMINS HAVE NOT DONE ANYTHING ABOUT YOUR VANDALISM! Puhleec ( talk) 09:10, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
User Sennaitgebremariam, your sources do NOT State that the Aksumite Kings were TIGRAYANS therefore adding them under Notable Tigrayans is not valid. You are using your own original research to come to this conclusion, I will delete your Aksumite kings again.
Puhleec (
talk)
04:05, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
A split is much better and easier to edit in the long run and reduce edit wars of which there are many on these highly charged ethnic articles. Someone has already started a separate Tigrinya article for "Biher Tigrinya"(Eritreans) and I think if we move most of the "Tigrinya" related things over to the "Tigrinya" article. What most people on Wikipedia are missing is the diversity even within the "Tigrayans" and "Tigrinyas", the history, the culture it is Not the Same and it is incorrect to Monolothically present these People as all the Same. If that is the route to go, then we might as well not have a "Tigrayan" article , and just have one Monolithic "Ethiopian" article and in that case the majority and minority-powerful will have the loudest voice on Wikipedia. If a distinction can be made between Belgians, Dutch, Duestche(Germans) etc, English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish, etc, I think it is only fair to make a distinction between Tigrinya and Tigrayans, and give them both their Space in Wiki otherwise, this is double standard when it comes to African ethnic groups (peoples). Does Wikipedia only Provide Distinct Presentation for Western White(Welsh, English) people but Not Africans like Tigrinyas and Tigrayans? Puhleec ( talk) 03:58, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
All on Wikipedia editors, Sennaitgebremariam has been Deleting a Sourced/Verified/Linked Haile Selassie Gugsa entry and then masking his Vandalism by adding other "changes". Admin support needed as this is leading to an UNNECESSARY Edit War with Sennaitgebremariam. Puhleec ( talk) 04:11, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
Also SennaitGebremariam keeps adding his Original Research with regards to Kingdom of Aksum Kings and listing them as "Notable Tigrayans", his sources do Not State this. It is Original Research, I will keep Deleting them. Puhleec ( talk) 04:11, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
I added new sources easily found which attest what I say-- tell me Sennaitgebremariam ( talk) 00:32, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
Your addition of "Tigreans burned his house down" is irrelevant to why he is a Notable Tigrayan. He was Notable because of his involvement with the Italians against the Ethiopian nation. Otherwise, if his house was burned down by "patriotic Tigreans" is irrelevant to the main point. And Yes, he is a Notable Tigrayan as his actions affected many Ethiopians and Eritreans. Your addition of "Tigreans burned his house down" was removed because it is irrelevant Chatter to the main point of the Notable Tigraayans. If you add it again, I will seek Admin support. Puhleec ( talk) 06:44, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
I added the story following the guidelines of Wikipedia: Neutral point of view-- tell me Sennaitgebremariam ( talk) 10:10, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
You added unverified and irrelevant information about Haile Selasie Gugsa with regards to him being a Notable Tigrayan. Puhleec ( talk) 14:18, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
I am having a dispute with SennaitGebremariam who keeps adding the Ancient Aksumite(Axum) Kings as being Notable Tigrayans. I have been in a minor Edit battle with Him. But at this Point I have intentionally added the Ancient Aksumite Kings to the Notable Biher Tigrinya (Eritrean) list just to see if Sennaitgebremariam will delete it based on his "Original Research" which it is. None of his Sources state that these Ancient Aksumite kings were Tigrayans. Infact one King Zoskales was of Adulis, which is in Eritrea which would make him NOT TIGRAYAN clearly. Sennait's logic is that since Axum is in Tigray, therefore all Ancestors were "Tigrayans". The problem with his original research is the fact that historians and linguists have found that the Ancient Aksumite Kings spoke Geez ( Parent language to Amharic, Tigre(Eritrea), and Tigrinya, and some other semitic languages in the Eritrean/Ethiopian linguistic groups) however, Sennait's original research is faulty because, he uses "architecture, and alphabets" which are shared by Amhara, Eritrean Tigrinyas, Ethiopian Tigrayans, as well as many other Groups within this region. I recommend DELETING the Ancient Aksumite Kings listed in "Notable Tigrayans, Notable Tigrinyas, Notable Amharas", as this is equivalent to referring to Ancient Romans as "Notable Spaniards, Notable Italians, Notable English" simply because of a connection to an Ancient Roman emperor. This is original research on the part of SennaitG. I call on ANY Wiki Admins and Editors other than SennaitG to come and PROVE that these ANCIENT AKSUMITE kings were "EThnically Tigrayan"? PROVE IT! Puhleec ( talk) 07:00, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
Other Editors assistance needed here, which of these two versions reads better and stays within the focus of the entry(HaileSelassieGugsa) in Notable Tigrayans:
Sennaitgebremariams version: "Haile Selassie Gugsa - he was granted the title of ras by Italian, title usurped by the occupants has collaborated with the Italians during the Second Italo-Ethiopian War, furious Tigrean patriots in Mek'ele promptly set fire to his house in the city[32][33] and for this he was sentenced to death but it was commuted to life imprisonment."
Otakrems version: "Haile Selassie Gugsa - Dejazmatch who collaborated with the Italians during the Second Italo-Ethiopian War [32] and was granted the title of ras by the Italians. For his collaboration with the Italians, he was convicted by Ethiopia for being a traitor and sentenced to death but it was commuted to life imprisonment." Otakrem ( talk) 20:00, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
I have noticed the sources cited for the Notable Tigrayan and Tigrinya "Kings of Axum"/Aksumite Kings are falsely sourced ie the sources mention nothing of them being Tigrayan or Tigrinya. An editor Fitrawrari deleted them and then I reviewed the sources and found no indication or statements saying they were 'Tigrayan" or "Tigrinyas". I have attached "weasel words" and "unreliable sources" to each one of the entries I looked at the source. Simply on the basis of them being falsely sourced, I think they should be deleted. I will give whoever entered it a few days to properly source them, or I will delete them. Five days from now, I plan on deleting them. Otakrem ( talk) 05:55, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
the references are there, not to spoil the work of others
await an answer-- tell me Sennaitgebremariam ( talk) 12:32, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
Response None of your sources state These "Aksumite Kings" were "Tigrayan" or "Tigrinya". Infact, some of your sources only say they spoke "Geez" (Yared). Therefore your claim that these "Aksumite kings" were "Tigrayan" or "Tigrinya" is your Own Original Research and Personal Analysis. Per Wikipedia Guidelines, they will need to be deleted and can be deleted. Provide a reliable source or the "Aksumite kings" will be deleted from the "Notable Tigrayans" and "Notable Tigrinyas". Otakrem ( talk) 04:30, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Otakrem Puhleec Ethiopianhistorian EthiopianHabesha stop making this vandalism because signal Sockpuppet-- tell me Sennaitgebremariam ( talk) 09:43, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
stop, you do the questions alone and you answer as well--
tell me Sennaitgebremariam (
talk)
08:28, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
The article is named "Tigrayans", which is by no means correct to describe the Eritrean ethnic group of Eritrea which are the Tigrinyas. Ethiopian ethnic group Tigrayans and the region Tigray is not the same as the Eritrean Tigrinyas which are the "Kebessa's". They do however have strong historical ties, but to claim that they are the same exact ethnic group is not correct. Either change the name article name from "Tigrayans" to "Tigrinya people and Tigrayan people", or split the article into two separate articles. Richard0048 ( talk) 20:38, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Split Splitting the article into "Tigrayans" and "Tigrinyas" will remove all unnecessary clumsy edits to capture the differences between the two ethnic groups. Already, there exists a "Tigrinya" article, all that remains is to remove "Tigrinya" data from "Tigrayan" article and move it over to Tigrinyas". As for historical ties, it appears the records show a hostile relation between the two ethnic groups with moments of collaboration of conveniences. Otherwise, they are two separate ethnic groups. They know it and the past and present relations shows it. Otakrem ( talk) 01:09, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
Support Split for the same reasons I listed in prior discussion, plus the Tigrinyas page already exists, having the same information both here and there is redundant, I also want to point out that other linguistically similar ethnic groups separated by borders are granted separate articles on Wikipedia, such as Isan people in Thailand and Lao people in Laos or Dutch people in the Netherlands and Flemish people in Belgium. — Abrahamic Faiths ( talk) 16:10, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
Any more comments from Others? We need to build consensus on a split otherwise this article is going to remain in this redundant statusquo which will hinder further improvements and redundant editting. I say we start moving "Tigrinya" specific data from here over to Tigrinyas. The arguments to keep them together has fallen apart and therefore the next logical step is to separate these two articles. Abrahamic Faith and Richard0048 have given their two cents as have I. The more we delay this, the more of these talkpage discussions are going to occur with no movement forward. Why are these two ethnic groups being imposed on each other? They clearly have different historical paths, traditions, territories, even cultural symbolism and ancestral mythologies which can not be captured in this current state. Otakrem ( talk) 02:27, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
Oppose the split eventhough I don't support the name 'Tigrayans' (corrupted from the common historical ethnicity name Tigré (ትግሬ) just like Somalia & Somaliland corrupted from ethnic Somali) being extended into Tigrinya speaking people of Eritrea. I think we should try one more time to come up with a name that both groups are ok with it, after all both groups speak one language and there is no wikipedia article saying Ethiopian Tigrinya language and Eritrean Tigrinya language but only one Tigrinya language. As can be seen here [14] there is a widely accepted consensus among worlds professional linguists that there is no Tigrinya dialect but possibly various accents like various English accents. Even if there are dialects they all would have been considered one Tigrinya language. If possible return it to it's previous naming Tigray-Tigrinya people, or may be use the historical common ethnicity name 'Tigré' or may be some other name that both are fine with it like 'Tigrinya speaking people' or other common name that they both use. If all German, Korean & Chinese speaking people leaving in different countries who went to war have one common article in Wikipedia then I see no reason why all Tigrinya speaking people should not have one. — EthiopianHabesha ( talk) 13:37, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
Support the Split Again I support it because of Abrahamic Faith's argument and the fact that Tigrayans and Tigrinya people have two completely different histories. Any past association does not mean a current "Unity" in "ethnic identity". And Language alone is not the criteria for the definition of an Ethnicity. Otakrem ( talk) 21:16, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
Deletion of Tigrinya Specific Data from Tigrayan Article Abrahamic Faith, Soupforone, Richard0048, other Editors who have created Tigrinyas shall we agree to Finalize this Move? Otakrem ( talk) 05:14, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
Richard0048, Abrahamic Faith stated: I also want to point out that other linguistically similar ethnic groups separated by borders are granted separate articles on Wikipedia, such as Isan people in Thailand and Lao people in Laos or Dutch people in the Netherlands and Flemish people in Belgium. Tigrayans and Tigrinyas fit this argument, therefore if it is done for those groups then it applies for Tigrayans and Tigrinyas. I say just split them and forget about a third central article. A simple "Related Ethnic group" mention in each article is sufficient enough. And all this attempt at trying to turn Eritrean Tigrinyas into Ethiopian Tigrayans using different sources at different timelines is also ridiculous since obviously these Two People do not Identify as the Same people. Their interconnectedness is no different then neigbors living near each other but they are still two different Houses. Otakrem ( talk) 23:24, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
By this argument, then all Amhara and Tigrayans, Oromos are the Same Ethnic group? Alliance don't mean being the "Same Ethnic group". The Tigrinya have/had relations with other ethnic groups. The Tigrayans had/have relations with other Ethnic groups. This argument of interaction doesn't translate to "they are the same ethnic group". Otakrem ( talk) 04:11, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
Lets bring this back to topic which is the Split of the Tigrinyas and Tigrayans articles since it has been argued that they are two separate ethnic groups. The current article which mashes these two together distorts and does not show what each ethnic group is about. Past common ancestry doesn't change the fact that in the modern times, Tigrinyas and Tigrayans are separate ethnic groups(different in history, self-identification, ancestral mythologies, tribal breakdowns(subdivisions), family networks, linguistic dialects, etc) and they have expressed that. Otakrem ( talk) 22:20, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
comment Similar examples on the issue are provided above from various people leaving in various countries who speak one languages (either with no dialect or with several dialects and either in peace or at war) but having one common article like Germans, Koreans, Somalis, Oromos, Amharas & Punjabis (Muslim/Hindu, with Arabic-Punjabi script, at war, Pakistan/India Democratic multi-ethnic nations). On the other hand other people who speak one language but having separate ethnic-group articles like Serbo-Croatian (Yugoslavia ruled by communist/Leninism parties before breakaway). I think the option for this article is to let it stay as it is, or rename it, or may be make it like Serbo-Croatian (Tigray-Tigrinya) with similar infobox found in that article, though both call the language Tigrinya which is contrary to the Serbo-Croatian language with different names in the breakaway countries. — EthiopianHabesha ( talk) 15:22, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
Ethnic Definition Wikipedia's article Ethnic_group. Ethnicity can be defined by more than just a language. The whole argument for keeping these two ethnic groups into one article is based solely on language which is not even how these two ethnic groups identify in relation to each other and other ethnic groups. Otakrem ( talk) 15:38, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
Do Amhara people "Amhara" People like yourself EthiopianHabesha(AMHARA) call Tigray people; 1.Tigray or 2. Tigre? Otakrem ( talk) 06:49, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
Still Support Split Back to the topic again, this discussion is about the Split of the Tigrinyas and Tigrayan articles. Like Richard had surmised, he'd like a split but with some small section talking about their relation. If the Tigrayans get a small section so should the Tigre people, Bilen, Saho, Beja etc because the Tigrinyas have relations with all of its ethnic neighbors.James Bruce did state that the MedriBahri( Tigrinyas) were a distinct polity to Abyssinia. Otakrem ( talk) 20:28, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
Article with Multiple Sources [21] Article talks about the historical differences between Tigrinyas and Tigrayans, interesting quote here: “You want the country to the Mareb (Eritrean highlands/Medri Bahri) to cultivate your gardens, to build your houses, to construct your churches....? We can give it to you. [And not menilek.] Let the Italian soldiers come to Adwa, I shall come to meet them like a friend." (1996, Ḥagai Erlikh, P. 164) Ras Alula Tigrayan warlord of Tigray Otakrem ( talk) 20:52, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
MedriBahri( Tigrinyas) & Tigrayans resisted Turks & ruled Gondar: James Bruce & Henry Salt own book published in 1800s says MedriBahri( Tigrinyas) was part of the Tigré province who together fought back/resisted Turks expansion into the highland and also who went to Gondar together & ruled the Amhara people/provinces under their governor Ras Mikael Sehul. No need to bring those others who paraphrase out of context (corrupting history) for their own agenda. If that is not what Bruce & Salt are saying then we can ask other wikipedia editors to give their opinion. Otakrem, please do not repeat this corrupted history (MedriBahri( Tigrinyas) were a distinct polity to Abyssinia) again & again until other wikipedia editors intervene and clarify on this matter. — EthiopianHabesha ( talk) 08:45, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
"Other wikipedia editors intervene." What does that even mean? You have been going on and on attacking authors of books that you disagree with. You want to do Original research here, go ahead, it will be thrown out per Wikipedia guidelines. Again, James Bruce nor Henry Salt define how the Tigrinyas and Tigrayans view themselves. And an Ethiopian Amhara like yourself does not get to define how these ethnic groups define themselves. Cherrypicking quotes from Henry Salt and James Bruce to synthesize to agree with your pre-determined position of "All are Abyssinians"-the dominating Amhara worldview is not going to do here and will be thoroughly contested and shown for the propaganda that it is. Otakrem ( talk) 09:38, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
Otakrem , Soupforone "Ethnolinguistic" group is better for these people. I have stated a source and that is what it says. There is nothing Otakrem you have really provided to prove they are a different ethnicity apart from saying they have different cultures, which is wrong. The language, clothing, food, way of life, names etc. are the same on both sides of the border apart from the most southern parts of the Tigray region. To simply put it, the only reason there are many words to describe the Tigrinya speakers is their view points. Both are from different countries that wanted different things, it does not mean they are a different ethnic group. Take a look at Koreans. They are labelled as an ethnic group yet there is more differences in culture in North Korea compared to the South. I have made a request for the title of the Tigrinyas page to be changed too, as it doesn't make sense. Resourcer1 ( talk) 08:21, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
Why are Tigrinyas being appended to a page titled Tigrayans? It hasn't been titled "Tigray-Tigrinya" for a few months now. Per WP:IRRELEVANT, anything not on actual, ethnic Tigrayans is therefore indeed irrelevant. Otakrem is also correct about the internal link-thrus. As WP:BLP, WP:QUESTIONABLE, WP:Common knowledge, WP:NOTMADEUP and Template:Speculation instruct, the internal link-thrus must reliably and verifiably indicate beforehand that the individuals are ethnically Tigrayan - only then can they be appended. Personal websites are not reliable per WP:BLOGS. One can't just claim that so and so is of Tigrayan parentage/clan heritage. Likewise, external links should not be linked to in the body per WP:ELCITE. As for the Kingdom of Aksum, claiming that the ancient kings of Aksum were Tigrayan specifically is absurd. They didn't even speak and write in the Tigrinya language, but instead in the parent Ge'ez language. These individuals would therefore be more appropriate on the Abyssinian people page, as Amhara and other Abyssinians trace descent to them too, not just Tigrayans. Soupforone ( talk) 02:07, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
User talk:Mulugheta alula roma Keeps reverting the unverified Aksumite Kings. I choose not to get into an edit war with him/her, therefore for the sake of awareness, Please do the applicable activity with this type of disruptive editing. Otakrem ( talk) 08:38, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
Self-identification matters even more than "relevant scholars" especially outdated travelers who incorrectly grouped people based on their first hand bias. To many things have transpired to maintain a false narrative of "they are the same people". See Eritrean War for Independence as a background to understanding the why this Split has happened. Ethnic groups are based on more than just language. Ethno-regionalism, Ethno-nationalism, the Tigrayans and Tigrinyas split on these points and reasons alone. Otakrem ( talk) 12:53, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
Since it's apparently fine to append files post-split, the ones that were there initially take precedence. Also, Biher-Tigrinya are Tigrinya speakers north of Tigray, not within it. Soupforone ( talk) 15:51, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
EthiopianHabesha, Tigray-Tigrinya was already renamed/split a few months ago (see note at the top of the page). Therefore, as per WP:MOVE, please either respect this or use the move template to propose here a rename to Tigray-Tigrinya. Either way, the page title (which is Tigrayans, not Tigray-Tigrinya) must reflect its contents per WP:TITLE. Soupforone ( talk) 16:43, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. I'm somewhat WP:INVOLVED in this discussion, having made a case for a different name in the requests above, but I think we can all agree that this one is not going anywhere, with three opposes after two weeks of listing, so I'm taking the liberty of closing it. — Amakuru ( talk) 08:46, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
Tigrayans →
Tigré people – article developed for 10 years
[31] for an ethnic-group who identifies themselves as Tigrayan and Biher-Tigrinya whom both call their native language as
Tigrinya language, which has no dialect
[32] and with not that much difference in ethnicity, culture and religion. The issue is Tigrinya speaking Ethiopians don't identify themselves as Biher-Tigrinya while Tigrinya speaking Eritreans don't identify themselves as Tigrayans. There have been requests by Eritreans for a move twice claiming Tigrayan is for a people found in
Tigray Region. Proposal is to rename this article, which have been central article for both people, with common/neutral name and create another article for Tigrayan people as Eritreans already created for
Tigrinyas after this article renamed from Tigray-Tigrinya to Tigrayans. For this central article I think the name "Tigré people" has been neutral & common name for both people until "Tigrayan" developed by 1978 to refer the inhabitants of Tigray region as the Ngram result
[33] shows. European scholars who traveled in the region such as
James Bruce &
Henry Salt (Egyptologist) referred all Tigrinya speaking people (inhabitants of Bahrenegash & other provinces that are now under Tigray region) as "Tigré people"
[34]. I believe they should have a central article while both having their own separate articles because both have so much in common. —
EthiopianHabesha (
talk)
10:09, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
I also Oppose with the idea of it being moved to "Tigrè" people, as this is an Amharic term for the northerners in Ethiopia, not for the Biher Tigrinya people or English. Resourcer1 ( talk) 22:41, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
Blocked sock Turtlewong ( talk) 00:40, 5 September 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Soupforone CrumpPlint The bottom line is, both of you have not provided enough evidence to label them as different ‘'ethnic‘' groups. These kingdom differences do not mean anything. There were so many different kingdoms present in the current Amhara region but I have yet to see someone try to split this ethnic group up into different components. This 'geographically they are different' is nonsense too. The land they inhabit has no gaps in-between, rather one large area. Again all you have provided is two different kingdoms. The only suggestion I will make if you want to keep both the Tigrayan article and the Biher-Tigrinya article, is to change the title from Tigrinyas->Biher Tigrinya. Soupforone you have already agreed to this before, the term Tigrinya to denote the people is incorrect for starters, it is either Biher Tigrinya or Kebesa. Resourcer1 ( talk) 16:36, 15 February 2017 (UTC) CrumpPlint
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
please we have to Learn from Afar people we have Ethiopian Afar Eritrean Afar Djibouti Afar.
Tigray is not only the name of the please or the Region it is also the name of the Ethnic group Ethiopian Tigray and Eritrean Tigray Just like Afar and Kunama .it is quit easy. Belay HAile Selassie
The history of this page was destroyed due to some unfortunate circumstances with the name disagreement, so here is the history of the page before Merhawie's move: History of Tigray people.
I believe "Tigray" is only used for the region, "Tigrean" or "Tigrayan" for the people. -- MikeGasser (talk) 03:58, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Response to Yom: "Tigray people" could be used for an article about the people of Tigray. It would be inaccurate and offensive to use "Tigray people" as a title for an article which includes the Tigrigna speaking people of Eritrea. If the purpose of generalizing a name is to be less offensive, then using "Tigray people" as a title would obviously defeat the purpose as it would prove offensive to an Eritrean. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.186.212.253 ( talk • contribs) 14:58, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
To Sinaiticus: The Tigre language is derived mainly from Ge'ez, the greatest influence to Tigre is Arabic, thus making it probably the most Semitic of all languages which originated in Ge'ez. Agew languages contributed mostly to Amharic but also to the many Tigrigna dialects spoken in the areas close to the land of the Agews (southern Tigray). The Tigre who inhabit northern
Eritea had very little contact with Agew related people with the exception of the Bilen in Keren. Their contacts were mainly with the Bejas but the extent of Beja vocabulary in the Tigre language is not what you claim it is and some would even claim that Tigre influenced the vocabulary of the Beja clans (Hedareb and Haddendoa specifically) more than vice versa. What is more,
the Bejas are not an Agew related people, they are a North Cushitic people who mainly inhabit northern Sudan, Libya and Egypt as opposed to the Agew who are a Central Cushitic people.
To Sinaiticus: There is no such thing as "Tigrawee" whether in English or in Tigrigna. Someone from Tigray is called Tigraway (Tigra-why) as a male and Tigraweyti (Tigra-weighty) as a female and Tegaru in plural. In English perhaps one could use the term Tigrayan for both males and females and Tigrayans for plural.
To add some more confusion into the mix, I have always called Tigrinya speakers Tigré (rhymes with "ray," not "rye"), and this is how my mother (whose mother is Tigray/Tigré/Tigrayan/Tigrean/whatever) has always referred to them. In fidel, the pronounciation would be written ትግሬ, though I'm not sure how she actually writes the word. Wrt to "Tigrayan," I can see how Eritreans might reject such a labeling since they want to differentiate themselves from Ethiopians.
As to the ትግሬ (Tigre in Eritrea), I've never heard that they have a lot of Beja words. I know there are a significant number (over 100,000, Orville says 206,000, and this might be where I got my information) of Beja who speak Tigre, but I've heard that Tigre is in fact just as close if not closer to Ge'ez than Tigrinya, varying from Tigrinya basically in endings (they don't have all the -i endings) and derivations from different Ge'ez roots (i.e. if there's two ways to say x, then Tigre kept way 1 only, and Tigrinya kept way 2 only). I know it has a lot of Arabic influence.
Yom 19:45, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
WRT to Sinaiticus, Tigrayan would be objectionable to an Eritrean 'Tigrinya' because we are different group from the Tigray of Tigray. Remember that Tigray the province has no existed as long as the language Tigrinya and they obviously cannot be used interchangably. Futhermore the Province of Tigray never encompassed an area that included all of the Tigrinya of Eritrea. For more than a century the destinies of the Eritrean Tigrinya and the Ethiopian Tigrayans have been separate. Also recall that the Tigrayan Liberation Front (TPLF) was fighting for the liberation of the province of Tigray with a vision for a Greater Tigray but this was not based on the Tigrinya speaking people of Eritrea who favored the Nationalist Eritrean People's Liberation Front and Eritrean Liberation Front.
As an Eritrean Tigrinya I have always referred to Eritrean Tigrinya as 'Tigrinya' and Ethiopian 'Tigrayans' as 'Tigrayans'. Both my father and mother are Eritrean Tigrinya. Merhawie 19:56, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Tigray are Ethiopians from the northern Ethiopian province of Tigraya. Tigrinya is a language the people of Tigraya speak but it’s also used to refer to the Tigrinya speaking ethnic group in Eritrea. Nadeana 20:34, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I would question whether the combined term "Tigrayan-Tigrinya" is really used very often (and for that matter, whether Jenkins' website is very scholarly: "a greater distinction between their distinct ethnicities" is rather clumsy writing, to these eyes). However, I do agree that the combined term is more neutral. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 08:46, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
I think we have a case where there isn't any clear English convention, but we do have pretty good evidence after all of this discussion of what the conventions are within the Tigrinya-speaking communities themselves, with Tigrinya now being used in Eritrea for a people and not just a language. As Merhawie says, the word Tigray, whatever else it may sometimes mean in English, refers to a province in Ethiopia, which postdates the language and never encompassed the whole region where the language is spoken. I think this is a case where we should defer to the conventions within the community of speakers themselves; this would (hopefully) avoid offending anyone. And those conventions would lead us to refer to the ethnicity as Tigray/Tigrinya or Tigrayan/Tigrinya. Or (I hate to stir things up, but I guess we should be considering all possibilities), should there be separate articles for two different ethnicities that share a language? To take an extreme example, there is no Wikipedia article for the various English-speaking peoples around the world, even for those whose ancestors were English. -- MikeGasser (talk) 16:00, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
The 8th to 10th century manuscripts in which this inscription is preserved have some explanatory glosses about some of these names; thus Gaze apparently means the Aksumites, still called Agaze, the Siguene are the Suskinitai, the tribes near Adulis are called the Tigretes (the earliest mention of Tigray?)
To Yom: If the manuscript refers to a tribe living near Adulis then it was probably not referring to the "Tigray people" or to Tigray. The term "Tigretes" does not automatically translate into Tigray people or Tigray. It could have been ancestors of the Tigre, or even Tigrigna speaking peoples, not necessarily associated with the province of Tigray.
Since no one has made any contributions to this page in a bit I thought that I would assess what has been said. Here is the list of people that have contributed to this conversation so far, and the way they seem to be leaning for the title:
Its seems that the overriding preference is to maintain an article in reference to both groups (Tigrinya and Tigrayan) combined but to use a more neutral combined name such as Tigrayan-Tigrinya or Tigrinya-Tigrayan. So if there arent any concerns, I will change the name of this page to...."Tigrinya-Tigrayan" tomorrow afternoon.
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Tigray-Tigrinya_people"
FOR some reason i find women from eritrea more beautiful than ethiopian women. maybe it's just me. anyone want to comment? —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
209.244.31.165 (
talk •
contribs) 20:59, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I. in Eritrea only
-Not to be confused with -
II - Ethiopia
-- ፈቃደ ( ውይይት) 19:23, 31 March 2006 (UTC) Edited Merhawie 19:58, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
My understanding is that the Tigray are overwhelmingly Ethiopian Orthodox, with very few Muslims and very few converts to P'ent'ay among them (this may be completely different from Tigrinya speakers in Eritrea). However, this is based purely on hearsay. I am wondering if someone can cite a source that confirms or denies this, before we add such a statement to the article? -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:04, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I noticed this on accident, but when I copied and pasted the text from the old version of "Tigray people" to "Tigray-Tigrinya," the diff. of the two versions shows that Merhawie started changing the orders of Eritrea to come before Ethiopia. While I think alphabetical order and prominence should be more important (i.e. Eritrea, Ethiopia for popplace, but Ethio orthodox before Eri since more are members of the former), I don't want this to result in an edit war. The order it is in now seems to me to be fine, and I would posit that we simply leave it in this order and also the same order as when any additions are made, with the only exception where it clearly makes sense to put one in front of the other or in the case of a massive overhaul of the article, where it first explains Tigrays in Ethiopia and then Tigrinya in Eritrea (or vice-versa) and then the two groups as a whole. OTherwise, it would be best not to start an edit war over this and just leave the orders be.
Also, Merhawie, why did you remove the picture? You may object to it as he was the Emperor of Ethiopia, but he is a prominent Tigray-Tigrinya and an acceptable choice for a picture to represent the ethnic group (also it's very old so the copywright has expired).
On an unrelated note, should citations go outside of the period of the sentence or inside?
Actually I looked at a few people articles ( Kurds, Hausas, Igbos), and it seems that the popplace should be in order of population, so I'm going to put Ethiopia first again. Apparently it is the total number that is important and not the percentage, since Turkey comes before Iraq for Kurds, even though it's 15% of Iraq's population vs. 12.5% of Turkey's.
I am the one who removed the picture, because Yohannes IV does NOT represent our ethnic group, he represents a political force which along with his chief cohort Alula Abanega committed genocide on our people in the late 19th century, like puttting up a picture of Hitler to represent German ethnicity, an absolutely disgusting choice. You couldn't find a better example of a picture like people wearing traditional costumes, playing krar and keboro and dancing around in a ring typical of the Tigrayan and Biher-Tigrigna? Even putting up an Axum monument would have been slightly inaccurate (since it is a legacy common to all Abyssinian peoples that predates the Biher-Tigrigna/Tigrayan ethnicity) but much less insensitive!
Hitler did not committ genocide on Germans he committed genocide on Jews who are an unrelated people. So I guess using that kind of racist logic it would be entirely appropriate to put up Hitlers picture to represent Germans? "Emperor" Yohannes IV like many other "Emperors" before him CLAIMED to be ruler over many territories thereamong the areas populated by Tigrigna speakers in present day Eritrea. These territories were never effectively united under one Empire so the legitimacy of such a claim is in question. Precolonial Africa did not consist of nationstates with clear boundaries, it consisted of realms of influence which constantly changed. Resistance to Yohannes IV's rule was rife in many areas of his "Empire" thereamong the Tigrinya speaking region of present day Eritrea then known as Medri Bahri (in Abyssinia" Mereb Mellash or Bahr Negash), and this could be a possible explanation as to why he ended up betrayed in his own "Empire" to the Sudanese who decapitated his skull and still have it on display in the National Museum of Khartoum. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.186.212.253 ( talk • contribs) 14:16, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
"he's the best example of a Tigrinya speaking person that we have" you must be joking to say that,thats why berhanu chopped his head off,his old loyal jeberti commander till yohannes started butchering his fellow jeberti to please his fanatic priests.who ever said that only 5% of tigray are muslims are you people on drugs?just like tigrenya in eritrea is 50% of the population and are 100% christians.i cant believe some of you still get information from cia websites and produce it here claiming its the truth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yaya7 ( talk • contribs) 05:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
1. A person from Tigray speaks Tigrigna (Tigrinya) and is a Tigrayan in English, or Tigraway (-way pronounced "why") for the masculine singular and Tigraweyti (-weyti pronounced as "weigh-tee") for the feminine singular or Tegaru ("tegah-roo" emphasis on "roo") for the plural in Tigrigna. I do not know where "Tigrawee" comes from (which language) but it is not a phonetic rendition of anything remotely Tigrigna nor does the suffix "-wee" make any sense in English.
2. As an Eritrean of the Tigrigna-speaking ethnicity I would like to inform you that our official definition as a people is Biher-Tigrigna NOT simply "Tigrigna". Biher-Tigrigna means roughly -the Tigrigna ethnicity-, Biher meaning ethnicity. Eritrea is home to nine "Biherat" (plural of Biher), nine ethnicities, one of which is the Biher-Tigrigna.
3. The prefix or title Biher is important when denoting Tigrigna speakers as opposed to our language because of the nature of the word Tigrigna itself. Since this word is taken directly from Tigrigna (the language) and is not an anglicised construct, it carries its own exact meaning according to the Tigrigna grammar which can not be confused with English words or constructs that apply equally to nation-states and languages (like the word "English" for example). Tigrigna is specifically a language not a people. To denote the Eritrean people who are its native speakers, start with the Tigrigna word for ethnicity which is "Biher".
Ex. I am Biher-Tigrigna and I speak Tigrigna.
4. Biher-Tigrigna is both a noun and an adjective, both singular and plural (but like "people" or "hair") is a singlar word which can denote plurality as well as singularity and it is applicable to both sexes: I am Biher-Tigrigna and so is she hence we belong to the Biher-Tigrigna which numbers about 2 million (my own guesstimate).
5. No other Eritrean ethnicities need to be adressed "Biher" other than for formalities sake, since their names do correspond with the name of their language. The Tigre people speak Tigre for example. The Tigre and the Beja contributed vicabulary to eachother's languages while Arabic influenced them both. But the Beja language is NOT an Agew language. Infact Beja is in an entirely different branch of the Cushitic language family than Agew. Beja is a North Cushitic language while Agew is Central Cushitic, just like Bilen (with whom you must have either the Tigre or Bilen mixed up).
If official definitions do not determine what you use for the English article, what does? What your Eritrean friend told you? No offense to him or her or you but this "criteria" of yours seems a little flimsy at best. No one says "Ane Tigrigna iye" in Eritrea it is absurd, the correct way to refer to oneself is "ane biher Tigrigna iye". Indeed "Biher" is derived from the Ge'ez word for nation, and the original meaning of nation is not state, but an ethnically homogenous population (as in the Zulu nation who inhabit six states all in all). I am not sure when the term "Biher Tigrigna" was coined, but it was taught in school while under Ethiopian occupation (the nine ethnicities of Eritrea). I admit it is very "academical" and seldom used in an everyday context where expressions like "Hamasienai", "Seroetai" or "deqi khebesa" abound. This brings me to why the Biher-Tigrigna do not call ourselves Tegaru or Tigraway. It would be as inaccurate as calling someone from Tembien "Hamassienai". To be a "Tigraway" doesn't mean ethnicity or tribe to us, it means geography: to be a citizen of the province of Tigray, which we thankfully are not! {{subst:untitled2:15:46, 5 July 2006|24.186.212.253}}
Yom, you may know the answer but anyone else should go ahead if they know. How do the modern boundaries of the Tigray region of Ethiopia relate to the current distribution of Tigrinya speakers. Similarly how do the current boundaries of Tigray relate to the historical boundaries of Tigray. This may or may not clarify a sentence in the article text. -- Merhawie 15:56, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the two statements below regarding the Jebertis, as both are factually false. First off, Muslim Tigrinya speakers (whatever that means) aren't called Biher-Tigrinya as that is insulting to their heritage. Plus they aren't unofficially known as Jebertis. They have ALWAYS been known as Jebertis; and have a long and distinct history that began with the arrival of the companions of Prophet Muhammad to Abyssinia. They were named Jebertis by the Prophet himself (see main Jeberti article) and remained so for more than 1400+ years. There are many Jebertis who lived throughout this time and were known distinctly as Jebertis. One such example of this is the great Egyptian historian Al-Jabarti (meaning the one who is a Jeberti), who was of Jeberti descent. The inclusion of Jebertis is a conspiracy by the government of Eritrea (GOE) to boost the number of Tigrinya Christians. The Tigrinya has always been used to identify Tigrinya-speaking Christians. By adding the Jebertis into the fold, the GOE is then able to maintain the religious balance of 50% Muslims-50% Christians in the country. By count the Jebertis as Muslim on the sole basis of linguistical affiliation, the government is able to claim clamp down on the Muslims and deny them their rights (such as the right to learn their OTHER LANGUAGE Arabic)! The two statements that I removed are:
"In Eritrea, officially, any ethnic Tigrinya is known as Bihér-Tigrinya regardless of their religion."
"In Eritrea, Muslim speakers of Tigrinya are known unofficially as Jebertis."
More info can be found on this site [ http://www.jeberti.com/index.php?subaction=showfull&id=1120530126&archive=1121969170&start_from=&ucat=&jeberti=news
Jeberti as an ethnic group] 74.118.111.76 05:52, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
"MPlease it is time for as Tigreans and Eritreans to come together like our glorious ancestors of Axum and Adulis! What would Aste Yohanes, Alula Aba Nega, Ras Weldemicheal and Bahri Negash say when their sons and daughters of Tigray-Tigrigna fighting over worthless things. This entire problem has arisen from the mistakes of Amhara War lords who sold Eritrea to Italians dividing the mighty People of Tigray-Tigrigna in to two. Badme belongs to both people of Tigray and Eritrea.[(Tigreans=Eritreans)- --->Tigray-Tigrigna] Alitena, Tesorona, Zalambesa and the HOLE OF TIGRAY AND ERITREA BELONG TO THE PEOPLE OF TIGRAY-TIGRIGNA!!! So please it is time for us to come to realize our past that we are one people and join hand with hand to unite our divided people in to one! Peace to the People of Tigray and Eritrea! We are one! Let's stop the hatred for we are hating ourselves and our great ancestors of Axum and Adulis. This message is directed to both peoples of Tigray and Eritrea (That is to Tigray-Tigrigna for we are the same! The time has come to realize our destiny as one people.LONG LIVE PEOPLE OF TIGRAY-TIGRIGNA!!!" http://www.topix.net/forum/et/tigray/T2OG0PNNBQUEOPTVP —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.53.77.220 ( talk • contribs) 00:46, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{ Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 17:00, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Would you say the image at the bottom right of this page: http://www.travel-images.com/eritrea3.html represents correctly a typical Tigrinya woman?
I have moved the following comments from the article space. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:32, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Axum, or Aksum, is a city in northern Ethiopia named after the Kingdom of Aksum, a naval and trading power that ruled from the region ca. 1000 BC into the 10th century. The kingdom was occasionally referred to in medieval writings as "Ethiopia".
Located in the Mehakelegnaw Zone of the Tigray Region near the base of the Adwa mountains, the city has an elevation of 2,130 metres. It was the centre of the (eventual) Christian marine trading power the Aksumite Kingdom, which predated the earliest mentions in Roman era writings (around the time of the birth of Jesus) in good correlation to the expansion of Rome into northern Africa, and later when it developed into the Christian kingdom, was a quasi-ally of Byzantium against the day's Persian Empire. The historical record is unclear, primary sources being in the main limited to ancient church records. There are no evidences that Axumites considered themselves as Tigres or Tigreans. They spoke the ancient language of Ethiopia and Eritrea called "Ge'ez" and also Classical Greek. Therefore we must realize that Axum was an independent State which was certainly culturally and ethnically not "Tigrean" but rather cosmopolitic.
It is believed it began a long slow decline after the 7th century due partly to Islamic groups contesting trade routes. Eventually Aksum was cut off from its principal markets in Alexandria, Byzantium and Southern Europe and its trade share was captured by Arab traders of the era. The Kingdom of Aksum also quarreled with Islamic groups over religion. Eventually the people of Aksum were forced south into Shoa and their civilization declined. As the kingdom's power declined so did the influence of the city, which is believed to have lost population in the decline similar to Rome and other cities thrust away from the flow of world events. The last known (nominal) king to reign was crowned ca. 10th century, but the kingdom's influence and power ended long before that.
Its decline in population and trade then contributed to the shift of the power centre of the Ethiopian Empire so that it moved further inland and bequeathed its alternative place name (Ethiopia) to the region, and eventually, the modern state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.76.22.72 ( talk) 02:38, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups#Infobox Images for Ethnic Groups. Gyrofrog (talk) 18:46, 20 January 2011 (UTC) (Using {{ Please see}}) -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:46, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
The usage and primary topic of Tigrinya is under discussion, see talk:Tigrinya language -- 67.70.32.20 ( talk) 07:54, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
Reverted text on mainpage identifying Tigre language as Tigre-Beja. Tigre and Beja are distinct languages. Many Tigre people understand and speak Beja, but they are distinct languages (nor are they dialects). Merhawie ( talk) 14:09, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Move. The consensus is that this is the more common and concise name. Cúchullain t/ c 21:19, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
Tigray-Tigrinya people →
Tigrayans – Per
WP:CONCISE and
WP:COMMONAME. See results from
Google Ngram Viewer, where the phrase "Tigrinya people" is extremely rare -- it does not even show up in the graph. The most common word to refer to the people is "Tigrayans". The word "people" can be eliminated from the title as it's redundant as per
WP:ETHNICGROUP.
Khestwol (
talk)
07:35, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
Please see above discussion. There are strong reasons to not refer to those who speak Tigrigna as a singular "Tigrayan" ethnic group. It is a label only used for those who come from Ethiopia's Tigray province and one rejected by Tigrigna speakers who come from Eritrea. Mesfin ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:52, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus – It appears unlikely than any admin or anyone else will be able to see a consensus in this discussion that's been open for 8 weeks, or in the sections that follow that might be considered related or part of the discussion. If I'm wrong, start a new RM with a crisp proposal and explanation and let us see the consensus. ( non-admin closure) — Dicklyon ( talk) 02:07, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
Tigrayans →
Tigray-Tigrinya people – Please see
above discussion. There are strong reasons to not refer to those who speak Tigrigna as a singular "Tigrayan" ethnic group. It is a label only used for those who come from Ethiopia's
Tigray province and one rejected by Tigrigna speakers who come from
Eritrea.
Mesfin (
talk)
13:18, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
If there is no further issue and or discussion I think the weight of the arguments and opinions favors returning to the prior, long-standing title of "Tigray-Tigrinya". Merhawie ( talk) 21:54, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
I've titled this way to make a point, Tigrayans are their districts which are Agame, Shire, Adowa, Mekele...etc! Eritrea Kebessa(Tigrinya) are Akele Guzaye, Seraye, Hammasien!. So Eritrean Tigrinyas are NOT MEKELE, Nor are they SHire nor Adowa, Nor AGAME which makes ERitrean Tigrinyas are NOT TIGRAYANS!
Wikipedia has allowed itself to be a promoter of the Ethiopian Tigrayans shenangins! Pretty pathetic.
This article was Titled "Tigray-Tigrinya" to encompass the "Tigray" in Ethiopia and the "Tigrinya" in Eritrea. However after some wiki manipulations by some Tigrayan POV agents, its become POV article to satisfy the Tigrayan POVists!
If this is to be only about Ethiopian "TIGRAY" ie "TIGRAYANS" then we should remove any reference to ERITREAN TIGRINYAS.
Eritrean TIgrinyas Do Not See themselves as Tigrayans (Ethiopian Tigrayans).
I recommend, we split this article into "Tigrayans-Ethiopians" and "Eritrean- TIgrinyas". They are not the same people, they have been killing each other for 100s of years. Go read the history books.
2001:558:600A:4B:1C46:2D4D:CD43:A6E9 ( talk) 06:10, 9 April 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:558:600A:4B:1C46:2D4D:CD43:A6E9 ( talk) 06:07, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
Wikipedia follow this link to the Book "Mai Weini, a Highland Village in Eritrea: A Study of the People, Their.." by Kjetil Tronvoll. [1]
In this Book, it explains the ethnic identity of Eritrean Tigrinyas: For example, Eritrean Tigrinya are called officially by the Government of Eritrea as "Biher-Tigrinya", the people in general refer to themselves as either Aliet Tigrinya or Kebessa (Highland) and specifically as Hammasien, Seraye, or Akele Guzay BUT they DO NOT REFER to Themselves as "TIGRAYAN". To an Eritrean TIgrinya, a "TIGRAYAN" is someone from the "TIGRAY" province in Ethiopia. 2001:558:600A:4B:1C46:2D4D:CD43:A6E9 ( talk) 22:59, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
The Notable-Tigray-Tigrinya People part of this Wiki entry needs to remove all the Listed Kings of Axum(AKsum). 2001:558:600A:4B:1C46:2D4D:CD43:A6E9 ( talk) 21:59, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
This would be the equivalent of calling Ancient Roman emperors as Notable modern-day Sicilians even though Ancient Romans could've have been from any of the Groups that formed the Roman Empire. 2001:558:600A:4B:1C46:2D4D:CD43:A6E9 ( talk) 21:59, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
I agree the Axumite(Aksumite) emperors(Kings) were Not only Tigrayans so to classify them as "Notable Tigrayans" is incorrect historically. Most of the Axumite(Aksumite) emperors were Amharas....I think we should delete them from the Notable Tigrayan section. Puhleec ( talk) 10:38, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
Recently Wikipedia changed title of this article to Tigrayans on the ground that two words cannot be used to identify one people with one language and recommended to search for a common one word. For instance there are somali people leaving in many Horn of African countries but when one says "Somalia people" it doesnt mean the somali speaking Djiboutians or Kenyans or Ethiopians or Somalilanders but yet when you say "Somali people" they all agree to this one word name. Tigray-Tigrigna people need to look for a common 1 word name just like the word " Somalis"
Historically non Tigrigna speaking people identify both Eritrean and north Ethiopian Tigrigna speaking people as Tigre (ትግሬ). I am assuming the Ethiopian Tigringa speaking changed it to Tigrayan just like Somali was changed to "Somaliya" or Oromo changed to "Oromiya" while Eritreans on the other hand changed it to "Tigrigna people". So I'm thinking the root word is "ትግሬ" but the problem is when you write it in english script it contradicts with Tigre (ትግረ) ethnicgroup of Eritrea. If you ask any other Ethiopian on how they will identify Ethiopian Tigrigna speaking peoples no one will say "Tigray" but he will say Tigrae (ትግሬ) and will use the term "Tigray" to describe the province found in Ethiopia and also when you ask how do you identify Tigrigna speaking Eritreans he will not say "Tigringa people" but again he will say Tigre (ትግሬ) and will use the term "Tigrigna" to identify the language spoken but not the people because calling people as Tigrigna equals calling Amharas as "Amarigna people".
So instead of writing Tigrayans why not use "Tigrae" to write the Geez script "ትግሬ" to English and avoid the contradiction with the "ትግረ" (Tigre) of Eritrea. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EthiopianHabesha ( talk • contribs) 22:20, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
Amakuru are you still opposed to the proposed title Tigrinyas in spite of the research library notes I made above (preceding the counter-proposal)? The research library assembled a set of reference books on African ethnic groups, and I went through and search for proposed terms. I thought this was better path than the traditional n-gram analysis because I was concerned that geographical descriptions were being confused with ethnic group descriptions. Please let us know what you think?
Merhawie (
talk)
21:54, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus for this suggested rename. Fascinating discussion! (specially that very last part < tic>) Closed with no prejudice, i.e., any new move request that would result from any given proposal made in this discussion is, of course, fine by me. (closed by a page mover) OUR Wikipedia (not "mine")! Paine 08:32, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
Tigrayans → Tigrinyas – Extensive discussion has found the term "Tigrinyas" is more consistent with the description of the culture group described as opposed to other alternatives which are more appropriate for the description of a territory only some Tigrinya speaking people inhabit. Additionally, Tigrinyas does not have any political connotation (as the current title, Tigrayans, does) and seems the most accurate English term used to describe the ethnicity. Since the last move request, opposition comments has been addressed and detailed based on research library references over n-gram analysis which has confused geographical references with ethnic group references (the latter of which is the focus of the article). A well known research library that had a set of reference guides on ethnic groups and searched through each of them for the terms related to this subject. The results are above, but ultimately suggest that the page should be titled based on the language e.g. Tigrinya people. Again, I used this methodology to be as consistent with the Wikipedia policy to choose title that would be most easily referenced while remaining as precise as possible - Tigrayan cannot fit this mandate (too restrictive) while Tigray-Tigrinya cannot either (redundant). Merhawie ( talk) 04:46, 9 May 2016 (UTC) -- Relisting. Anarchyte ( work | talk) 10:53, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
References
I have put an Original Research tag and Citation needed for the List of Axumite(Aksumite) kings listed as "Notable Tigrayans" There is no historical records or evidence that says these Axumite(Aksumite) kings were Tigrayans because they do not meet the criteria of the Ethnic Tigrayan which is Speak Tigrinya and be from Tigray. The Aksumite(Axumite) kings spoke Geez and did NOT refer to themselves as "Tigrayan". Until there is evidence or verifiable sources saying so, I request to delete all the Axumite(Aksumite) kings listed under the Notable Tigrayans. Puhleec ( talk) 00:04, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
I think since adding the Aksumite kings to be part of the Notable Tigrayans is original research on the part of Sennaitgebraim. I will give Sennaitgebremariam to provide verifiable sources stating that the Aksumite kings were Tigrayans, if not I will delete all the Aksumite kings listed under Notable Tigrayans. Sennaitgebremariam, you have 3 Days to provide a verifiable source. Puhleec ( talk) 23:27, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
My argument as well as the argument of historians is that Aksumites can not be referred to as Tigrinya, Tigrayan, Tigre, nor Amhara since these are the Descendants of Aksumites not the otherway around as Sennaitgebremariam is trying to impose with Original Research ie "Since Axum is in Tigray region/province, then it must mean the Aksumites were Tigrayans", this doesn't hold water to the evolution of the language, culture, and religion in this region. I am recommending and will most likely delete the Aksumite Kings listed under the "Notable Tigrayan" section. Since this article is about Tigrayans and Tigrinyas and Not Aksumites. Puhleec ( talk) 00:03, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
Here is an interesting article on the History of Tigre, Tigrinya, and Tigrayan: [1] sources are cited within the Article itself. Puhleec ( talk) 00:06, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
there is a page created Tigrinyas just specific people who speak Tigrinya in Eritrea and can be safely added them. you could do more than distinguish the two pages between Tigrayans ethiopians and Tigrinyas Eritrea, it is okay.
I have DELETED all the AKSUMITE KINGS from your Notable Tigrayan Section as YOU HAVE NOT VERIFIED AND SOURCED ANything That CITED the AKSUMITE Kings as BEING TIGRAYAN! You are VANDALISING by DELETING the HAILE SELASSIE GUGSA (SOURCED, VERIFIED, CITED) Data, I will ADD MORE SOURCES..but the THREE I ADDED are SUFFICIENT AND FAR BEYOND WIKIPEDIA STANDARDS. You are VANDALISING! and yes I am Shouting because WIKIPEDIA ADMINS HAVE NOT DONE ANYTHING ABOUT YOUR VANDALISM! Puhleec ( talk) 09:10, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
User Sennaitgebremariam, your sources do NOT State that the Aksumite Kings were TIGRAYANS therefore adding them under Notable Tigrayans is not valid. You are using your own original research to come to this conclusion, I will delete your Aksumite kings again.
Puhleec (
talk)
04:05, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
A split is much better and easier to edit in the long run and reduce edit wars of which there are many on these highly charged ethnic articles. Someone has already started a separate Tigrinya article for "Biher Tigrinya"(Eritreans) and I think if we move most of the "Tigrinya" related things over to the "Tigrinya" article. What most people on Wikipedia are missing is the diversity even within the "Tigrayans" and "Tigrinyas", the history, the culture it is Not the Same and it is incorrect to Monolothically present these People as all the Same. If that is the route to go, then we might as well not have a "Tigrayan" article , and just have one Monolithic "Ethiopian" article and in that case the majority and minority-powerful will have the loudest voice on Wikipedia. If a distinction can be made between Belgians, Dutch, Duestche(Germans) etc, English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish, etc, I think it is only fair to make a distinction between Tigrinya and Tigrayans, and give them both their Space in Wiki otherwise, this is double standard when it comes to African ethnic groups (peoples). Does Wikipedia only Provide Distinct Presentation for Western White(Welsh, English) people but Not Africans like Tigrinyas and Tigrayans? Puhleec ( talk) 03:58, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
All on Wikipedia editors, Sennaitgebremariam has been Deleting a Sourced/Verified/Linked Haile Selassie Gugsa entry and then masking his Vandalism by adding other "changes". Admin support needed as this is leading to an UNNECESSARY Edit War with Sennaitgebremariam. Puhleec ( talk) 04:11, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
Also SennaitGebremariam keeps adding his Original Research with regards to Kingdom of Aksum Kings and listing them as "Notable Tigrayans", his sources do Not State this. It is Original Research, I will keep Deleting them. Puhleec ( talk) 04:11, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
I added new sources easily found which attest what I say-- tell me Sennaitgebremariam ( talk) 00:32, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
Your addition of "Tigreans burned his house down" is irrelevant to why he is a Notable Tigrayan. He was Notable because of his involvement with the Italians against the Ethiopian nation. Otherwise, if his house was burned down by "patriotic Tigreans" is irrelevant to the main point. And Yes, he is a Notable Tigrayan as his actions affected many Ethiopians and Eritreans. Your addition of "Tigreans burned his house down" was removed because it is irrelevant Chatter to the main point of the Notable Tigraayans. If you add it again, I will seek Admin support. Puhleec ( talk) 06:44, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
I added the story following the guidelines of Wikipedia: Neutral point of view-- tell me Sennaitgebremariam ( talk) 10:10, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
You added unverified and irrelevant information about Haile Selasie Gugsa with regards to him being a Notable Tigrayan. Puhleec ( talk) 14:18, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
I am having a dispute with SennaitGebremariam who keeps adding the Ancient Aksumite(Axum) Kings as being Notable Tigrayans. I have been in a minor Edit battle with Him. But at this Point I have intentionally added the Ancient Aksumite Kings to the Notable Biher Tigrinya (Eritrean) list just to see if Sennaitgebremariam will delete it based on his "Original Research" which it is. None of his Sources state that these Ancient Aksumite kings were Tigrayans. Infact one King Zoskales was of Adulis, which is in Eritrea which would make him NOT TIGRAYAN clearly. Sennait's logic is that since Axum is in Tigray, therefore all Ancestors were "Tigrayans". The problem with his original research is the fact that historians and linguists have found that the Ancient Aksumite Kings spoke Geez ( Parent language to Amharic, Tigre(Eritrea), and Tigrinya, and some other semitic languages in the Eritrean/Ethiopian linguistic groups) however, Sennait's original research is faulty because, he uses "architecture, and alphabets" which are shared by Amhara, Eritrean Tigrinyas, Ethiopian Tigrayans, as well as many other Groups within this region. I recommend DELETING the Ancient Aksumite Kings listed in "Notable Tigrayans, Notable Tigrinyas, Notable Amharas", as this is equivalent to referring to Ancient Romans as "Notable Spaniards, Notable Italians, Notable English" simply because of a connection to an Ancient Roman emperor. This is original research on the part of SennaitG. I call on ANY Wiki Admins and Editors other than SennaitG to come and PROVE that these ANCIENT AKSUMITE kings were "EThnically Tigrayan"? PROVE IT! Puhleec ( talk) 07:00, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
Other Editors assistance needed here, which of these two versions reads better and stays within the focus of the entry(HaileSelassieGugsa) in Notable Tigrayans:
Sennaitgebremariams version: "Haile Selassie Gugsa - he was granted the title of ras by Italian, title usurped by the occupants has collaborated with the Italians during the Second Italo-Ethiopian War, furious Tigrean patriots in Mek'ele promptly set fire to his house in the city[32][33] and for this he was sentenced to death but it was commuted to life imprisonment."
Otakrems version: "Haile Selassie Gugsa - Dejazmatch who collaborated with the Italians during the Second Italo-Ethiopian War [32] and was granted the title of ras by the Italians. For his collaboration with the Italians, he was convicted by Ethiopia for being a traitor and sentenced to death but it was commuted to life imprisonment." Otakrem ( talk) 20:00, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
I have noticed the sources cited for the Notable Tigrayan and Tigrinya "Kings of Axum"/Aksumite Kings are falsely sourced ie the sources mention nothing of them being Tigrayan or Tigrinya. An editor Fitrawrari deleted them and then I reviewed the sources and found no indication or statements saying they were 'Tigrayan" or "Tigrinyas". I have attached "weasel words" and "unreliable sources" to each one of the entries I looked at the source. Simply on the basis of them being falsely sourced, I think they should be deleted. I will give whoever entered it a few days to properly source them, or I will delete them. Five days from now, I plan on deleting them. Otakrem ( talk) 05:55, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
the references are there, not to spoil the work of others
await an answer-- tell me Sennaitgebremariam ( talk) 12:32, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
Response None of your sources state These "Aksumite Kings" were "Tigrayan" or "Tigrinya". Infact, some of your sources only say they spoke "Geez" (Yared). Therefore your claim that these "Aksumite kings" were "Tigrayan" or "Tigrinya" is your Own Original Research and Personal Analysis. Per Wikipedia Guidelines, they will need to be deleted and can be deleted. Provide a reliable source or the "Aksumite kings" will be deleted from the "Notable Tigrayans" and "Notable Tigrinyas". Otakrem ( talk) 04:30, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Otakrem Puhleec Ethiopianhistorian EthiopianHabesha stop making this vandalism because signal Sockpuppet-- tell me Sennaitgebremariam ( talk) 09:43, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
stop, you do the questions alone and you answer as well--
tell me Sennaitgebremariam (
talk)
08:28, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
The article is named "Tigrayans", which is by no means correct to describe the Eritrean ethnic group of Eritrea which are the Tigrinyas. Ethiopian ethnic group Tigrayans and the region Tigray is not the same as the Eritrean Tigrinyas which are the "Kebessa's". They do however have strong historical ties, but to claim that they are the same exact ethnic group is not correct. Either change the name article name from "Tigrayans" to "Tigrinya people and Tigrayan people", or split the article into two separate articles. Richard0048 ( talk) 20:38, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Split Splitting the article into "Tigrayans" and "Tigrinyas" will remove all unnecessary clumsy edits to capture the differences between the two ethnic groups. Already, there exists a "Tigrinya" article, all that remains is to remove "Tigrinya" data from "Tigrayan" article and move it over to Tigrinyas". As for historical ties, it appears the records show a hostile relation between the two ethnic groups with moments of collaboration of conveniences. Otherwise, they are two separate ethnic groups. They know it and the past and present relations shows it. Otakrem ( talk) 01:09, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
Support Split for the same reasons I listed in prior discussion, plus the Tigrinyas page already exists, having the same information both here and there is redundant, I also want to point out that other linguistically similar ethnic groups separated by borders are granted separate articles on Wikipedia, such as Isan people in Thailand and Lao people in Laos or Dutch people in the Netherlands and Flemish people in Belgium. — Abrahamic Faiths ( talk) 16:10, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
Any more comments from Others? We need to build consensus on a split otherwise this article is going to remain in this redundant statusquo which will hinder further improvements and redundant editting. I say we start moving "Tigrinya" specific data from here over to Tigrinyas. The arguments to keep them together has fallen apart and therefore the next logical step is to separate these two articles. Abrahamic Faith and Richard0048 have given their two cents as have I. The more we delay this, the more of these talkpage discussions are going to occur with no movement forward. Why are these two ethnic groups being imposed on each other? They clearly have different historical paths, traditions, territories, even cultural symbolism and ancestral mythologies which can not be captured in this current state. Otakrem ( talk) 02:27, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
Oppose the split eventhough I don't support the name 'Tigrayans' (corrupted from the common historical ethnicity name Tigré (ትግሬ) just like Somalia & Somaliland corrupted from ethnic Somali) being extended into Tigrinya speaking people of Eritrea. I think we should try one more time to come up with a name that both groups are ok with it, after all both groups speak one language and there is no wikipedia article saying Ethiopian Tigrinya language and Eritrean Tigrinya language but only one Tigrinya language. As can be seen here [14] there is a widely accepted consensus among worlds professional linguists that there is no Tigrinya dialect but possibly various accents like various English accents. Even if there are dialects they all would have been considered one Tigrinya language. If possible return it to it's previous naming Tigray-Tigrinya people, or may be use the historical common ethnicity name 'Tigré' or may be some other name that both are fine with it like 'Tigrinya speaking people' or other common name that they both use. If all German, Korean & Chinese speaking people leaving in different countries who went to war have one common article in Wikipedia then I see no reason why all Tigrinya speaking people should not have one. — EthiopianHabesha ( talk) 13:37, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
Support the Split Again I support it because of Abrahamic Faith's argument and the fact that Tigrayans and Tigrinya people have two completely different histories. Any past association does not mean a current "Unity" in "ethnic identity". And Language alone is not the criteria for the definition of an Ethnicity. Otakrem ( talk) 21:16, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
Deletion of Tigrinya Specific Data from Tigrayan Article Abrahamic Faith, Soupforone, Richard0048, other Editors who have created Tigrinyas shall we agree to Finalize this Move? Otakrem ( talk) 05:14, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
Richard0048, Abrahamic Faith stated: I also want to point out that other linguistically similar ethnic groups separated by borders are granted separate articles on Wikipedia, such as Isan people in Thailand and Lao people in Laos or Dutch people in the Netherlands and Flemish people in Belgium. Tigrayans and Tigrinyas fit this argument, therefore if it is done for those groups then it applies for Tigrayans and Tigrinyas. I say just split them and forget about a third central article. A simple "Related Ethnic group" mention in each article is sufficient enough. And all this attempt at trying to turn Eritrean Tigrinyas into Ethiopian Tigrayans using different sources at different timelines is also ridiculous since obviously these Two People do not Identify as the Same people. Their interconnectedness is no different then neigbors living near each other but they are still two different Houses. Otakrem ( talk) 23:24, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
By this argument, then all Amhara and Tigrayans, Oromos are the Same Ethnic group? Alliance don't mean being the "Same Ethnic group". The Tigrinya have/had relations with other ethnic groups. The Tigrayans had/have relations with other Ethnic groups. This argument of interaction doesn't translate to "they are the same ethnic group". Otakrem ( talk) 04:11, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
Lets bring this back to topic which is the Split of the Tigrinyas and Tigrayans articles since it has been argued that they are two separate ethnic groups. The current article which mashes these two together distorts and does not show what each ethnic group is about. Past common ancestry doesn't change the fact that in the modern times, Tigrinyas and Tigrayans are separate ethnic groups(different in history, self-identification, ancestral mythologies, tribal breakdowns(subdivisions), family networks, linguistic dialects, etc) and they have expressed that. Otakrem ( talk) 22:20, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
comment Similar examples on the issue are provided above from various people leaving in various countries who speak one languages (either with no dialect or with several dialects and either in peace or at war) but having one common article like Germans, Koreans, Somalis, Oromos, Amharas & Punjabis (Muslim/Hindu, with Arabic-Punjabi script, at war, Pakistan/India Democratic multi-ethnic nations). On the other hand other people who speak one language but having separate ethnic-group articles like Serbo-Croatian (Yugoslavia ruled by communist/Leninism parties before breakaway). I think the option for this article is to let it stay as it is, or rename it, or may be make it like Serbo-Croatian (Tigray-Tigrinya) with similar infobox found in that article, though both call the language Tigrinya which is contrary to the Serbo-Croatian language with different names in the breakaway countries. — EthiopianHabesha ( talk) 15:22, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
Ethnic Definition Wikipedia's article Ethnic_group. Ethnicity can be defined by more than just a language. The whole argument for keeping these two ethnic groups into one article is based solely on language which is not even how these two ethnic groups identify in relation to each other and other ethnic groups. Otakrem ( talk) 15:38, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
Do Amhara people "Amhara" People like yourself EthiopianHabesha(AMHARA) call Tigray people; 1.Tigray or 2. Tigre? Otakrem ( talk) 06:49, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
Still Support Split Back to the topic again, this discussion is about the Split of the Tigrinyas and Tigrayan articles. Like Richard had surmised, he'd like a split but with some small section talking about their relation. If the Tigrayans get a small section so should the Tigre people, Bilen, Saho, Beja etc because the Tigrinyas have relations with all of its ethnic neighbors.James Bruce did state that the MedriBahri( Tigrinyas) were a distinct polity to Abyssinia. Otakrem ( talk) 20:28, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
Article with Multiple Sources [21] Article talks about the historical differences between Tigrinyas and Tigrayans, interesting quote here: “You want the country to the Mareb (Eritrean highlands/Medri Bahri) to cultivate your gardens, to build your houses, to construct your churches....? We can give it to you. [And not menilek.] Let the Italian soldiers come to Adwa, I shall come to meet them like a friend." (1996, Ḥagai Erlikh, P. 164) Ras Alula Tigrayan warlord of Tigray Otakrem ( talk) 20:52, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
MedriBahri( Tigrinyas) & Tigrayans resisted Turks & ruled Gondar: James Bruce & Henry Salt own book published in 1800s says MedriBahri( Tigrinyas) was part of the Tigré province who together fought back/resisted Turks expansion into the highland and also who went to Gondar together & ruled the Amhara people/provinces under their governor Ras Mikael Sehul. No need to bring those others who paraphrase out of context (corrupting history) for their own agenda. If that is not what Bruce & Salt are saying then we can ask other wikipedia editors to give their opinion. Otakrem, please do not repeat this corrupted history (MedriBahri( Tigrinyas) were a distinct polity to Abyssinia) again & again until other wikipedia editors intervene and clarify on this matter. — EthiopianHabesha ( talk) 08:45, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
"Other wikipedia editors intervene." What does that even mean? You have been going on and on attacking authors of books that you disagree with. You want to do Original research here, go ahead, it will be thrown out per Wikipedia guidelines. Again, James Bruce nor Henry Salt define how the Tigrinyas and Tigrayans view themselves. And an Ethiopian Amhara like yourself does not get to define how these ethnic groups define themselves. Cherrypicking quotes from Henry Salt and James Bruce to synthesize to agree with your pre-determined position of "All are Abyssinians"-the dominating Amhara worldview is not going to do here and will be thoroughly contested and shown for the propaganda that it is. Otakrem ( talk) 09:38, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
Otakrem , Soupforone "Ethnolinguistic" group is better for these people. I have stated a source and that is what it says. There is nothing Otakrem you have really provided to prove they are a different ethnicity apart from saying they have different cultures, which is wrong. The language, clothing, food, way of life, names etc. are the same on both sides of the border apart from the most southern parts of the Tigray region. To simply put it, the only reason there are many words to describe the Tigrinya speakers is their view points. Both are from different countries that wanted different things, it does not mean they are a different ethnic group. Take a look at Koreans. They are labelled as an ethnic group yet there is more differences in culture in North Korea compared to the South. I have made a request for the title of the Tigrinyas page to be changed too, as it doesn't make sense. Resourcer1 ( talk) 08:21, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
Why are Tigrinyas being appended to a page titled Tigrayans? It hasn't been titled "Tigray-Tigrinya" for a few months now. Per WP:IRRELEVANT, anything not on actual, ethnic Tigrayans is therefore indeed irrelevant. Otakrem is also correct about the internal link-thrus. As WP:BLP, WP:QUESTIONABLE, WP:Common knowledge, WP:NOTMADEUP and Template:Speculation instruct, the internal link-thrus must reliably and verifiably indicate beforehand that the individuals are ethnically Tigrayan - only then can they be appended. Personal websites are not reliable per WP:BLOGS. One can't just claim that so and so is of Tigrayan parentage/clan heritage. Likewise, external links should not be linked to in the body per WP:ELCITE. As for the Kingdom of Aksum, claiming that the ancient kings of Aksum were Tigrayan specifically is absurd. They didn't even speak and write in the Tigrinya language, but instead in the parent Ge'ez language. These individuals would therefore be more appropriate on the Abyssinian people page, as Amhara and other Abyssinians trace descent to them too, not just Tigrayans. Soupforone ( talk) 02:07, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
User talk:Mulugheta alula roma Keeps reverting the unverified Aksumite Kings. I choose not to get into an edit war with him/her, therefore for the sake of awareness, Please do the applicable activity with this type of disruptive editing. Otakrem ( talk) 08:38, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
Self-identification matters even more than "relevant scholars" especially outdated travelers who incorrectly grouped people based on their first hand bias. To many things have transpired to maintain a false narrative of "they are the same people". See Eritrean War for Independence as a background to understanding the why this Split has happened. Ethnic groups are based on more than just language. Ethno-regionalism, Ethno-nationalism, the Tigrayans and Tigrinyas split on these points and reasons alone. Otakrem ( talk) 12:53, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
Since it's apparently fine to append files post-split, the ones that were there initially take precedence. Also, Biher-Tigrinya are Tigrinya speakers north of Tigray, not within it. Soupforone ( talk) 15:51, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
EthiopianHabesha, Tigray-Tigrinya was already renamed/split a few months ago (see note at the top of the page). Therefore, as per WP:MOVE, please either respect this or use the move template to propose here a rename to Tigray-Tigrinya. Either way, the page title (which is Tigrayans, not Tigray-Tigrinya) must reflect its contents per WP:TITLE. Soupforone ( talk) 16:43, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. I'm somewhat WP:INVOLVED in this discussion, having made a case for a different name in the requests above, but I think we can all agree that this one is not going anywhere, with three opposes after two weeks of listing, so I'm taking the liberty of closing it. — Amakuru ( talk) 08:46, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
Tigrayans →
Tigré people – article developed for 10 years
[31] for an ethnic-group who identifies themselves as Tigrayan and Biher-Tigrinya whom both call their native language as
Tigrinya language, which has no dialect
[32] and with not that much difference in ethnicity, culture and religion. The issue is Tigrinya speaking Ethiopians don't identify themselves as Biher-Tigrinya while Tigrinya speaking Eritreans don't identify themselves as Tigrayans. There have been requests by Eritreans for a move twice claiming Tigrayan is for a people found in
Tigray Region. Proposal is to rename this article, which have been central article for both people, with common/neutral name and create another article for Tigrayan people as Eritreans already created for
Tigrinyas after this article renamed from Tigray-Tigrinya to Tigrayans. For this central article I think the name "Tigré people" has been neutral & common name for both people until "Tigrayan" developed by 1978 to refer the inhabitants of Tigray region as the Ngram result
[33] shows. European scholars who traveled in the region such as
James Bruce &
Henry Salt (Egyptologist) referred all Tigrinya speaking people (inhabitants of Bahrenegash & other provinces that are now under Tigray region) as "Tigré people"
[34]. I believe they should have a central article while both having their own separate articles because both have so much in common. —
EthiopianHabesha (
talk)
10:09, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
I also Oppose with the idea of it being moved to "Tigrè" people, as this is an Amharic term for the northerners in Ethiopia, not for the Biher Tigrinya people or English. Resourcer1 ( talk) 22:41, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
Blocked sock Turtlewong ( talk) 00:40, 5 September 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Soupforone CrumpPlint The bottom line is, both of you have not provided enough evidence to label them as different ‘'ethnic‘' groups. These kingdom differences do not mean anything. There were so many different kingdoms present in the current Amhara region but I have yet to see someone try to split this ethnic group up into different components. This 'geographically they are different' is nonsense too. The land they inhabit has no gaps in-between, rather one large area. Again all you have provided is two different kingdoms. The only suggestion I will make if you want to keep both the Tigrayan article and the Biher-Tigrinya article, is to change the title from Tigrinyas->Biher Tigrinya. Soupforone you have already agreed to this before, the term Tigrinya to denote the people is incorrect for starters, it is either Biher Tigrinya or Kebesa. Resourcer1 ( talk) 16:36, 15 February 2017 (UTC) CrumpPlint
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