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Archive 1 |
Why did we devote 75% of the article to the film? Tianxia is one of the most common phrases in Chinese - nearly every ancient Chinese source you see has a very broad reference or a whole chapter devoted to it - Lunyu, Daxue, Zhuangzi, etc. Tianxia is the subject of some of the most common Chinese proverbs and phrases: 天下无难事, 天下第一, 天下大事, 天下为公, 三分天下 of Zhuge Liang, 天下布武 of Nobunaga Oda, 治国平天下 of Confucius, to name a few. Tianxia, "Under heaven", has the same usage as "World". Having 75% of the article about a mere film is like having 75% of the article describing the Globe Theatre in the article World. I have removed large chunks of pathetic nonsense and irrelevant or POV claims from the article. Now let's put some real info in the article. Aran| heru| nar 12:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Lots of translation work needs to be done from the Chinese version of the article. Is there a tag we can stick at the top of the article that requests help to translate content from other language versions of the article? If not, I can create one. There are a lot of Chinese articles with content that could be translated into their English counterparts. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 03:57, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I gotta say, this article is really kind of crappy when you compare it to the Chinese version. If I can muster up the time, maybe I'll do some translation work. But I do urge any other editors who can translate Chinese to English to also contribute if they have the time. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 23:53, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
The Japanese Wikipedia defines 天下統一 'unification of all under heaven' as follows:
天下統一(てんかとういつ/てんがとういつ)は、主に日本の戦国時代から江戸時代初期にかけて、日本全土(琉球と蝦夷地の大半を除く)を、自らの支配下に置き日本全土を統一する事を指す。
Rough translation: Tenka tōitsu, mainly from the Sengoku period to the early years of the Edo period, referred to the placing of the whole of Japan (excluding Ryuku and Ezo) under one's control and uniting the whole of Japan.
However, there is a historical dimension to this:
「天下」の本来の意味では、その支配地域に境界はなく、秀吉は1590年に日本を統一すると、92年からは対明出兵(文禄・慶長の役)を実行する。秀吉の朝鮮出兵は失敗に終わり、徳川将軍家が支配する江戸時代になると、「天下」は日本列島に限る意味で用いられた。
Rough translation: In the original meaning of tenka, there were no boundaries to the area of control. Having unified Japan in 1590, Hideyoshi in 1592 sent troops against the Ming (Bunroku and Keicho campaigns). Hideyoshi's campaign against Korea failed and in the Edo period under the control of Tokugawa Ieyasu, the use of 'tenka' was confined to the Japanese islands.
Roadrunner added the words 'and their ultimate goal was to invade the Asian mainland and become Emperor of China'. This is a broad-brush statement and puts a very particular slant on the Japanese and the goals of Hideyoshi and Tokugawa. Before adding such provocative statements, it would be useful to ensure that the entire picture is being conveyed. (For instance, try translating the entire section on 天下 in Japan from the Chinese Wikipedia).
Bathrobe 03:04, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I've written a first draft of the first two paragraphs. I've gone for a fairly literal translation, so it would be a good idea to edit this some before incorporating it into the article: - The expression "天下" as a term for the world was first used by the Han people of China. Later, the idea spread to other parts of East Asia. The idea deeply influenced the history of East Asia and the peoples of East Asia. The expression's basic meaning is "(all) under the common sky" (普天之下). However, the meaning is not just a concept of geography or space. It is also used to describe a particular kind of geographical location. The concept of "all under heaven" is determined by the worldview of a particular region, people, or nation. The idea should be considered to reflect a particular region's or people's worldview. Index: 1 The Idea 1.1 China 1.2 Japan 1.3 Korea 1.4 Vietnam 1.5 Mongolia and pastoral-nomadic people of Asia 2 Historical Evolution 1.1 China 1.2 Japan 1.3 Korea 1.4 Vietnam 1.5 Mongolia and pastoral-nomadic people of Asia 3 Further Reading 4 Notes 5 References
The Idea China In China, "all under heaven" indicates all that was ruled by the Chinese emperor. It was the theory of rule of that particular area. This area under control of the Chinese court was called Xia (夏), Hua (華), Zhongxia (中夏), Zhonghua (中華), Zhongguo (中國), and other names. This was distinguished from the surrounding "four sides" and the Yi (夷 "the barbarians".) However, if regions were put under Chinese imperial rule, then they would also be called part of "all under heaven". (See also: Sinocentrism, Chinese Imperialism, Tian). - I'm not sure of the correct translation for 秩序原理. It must mean something like "orderly theory" or perhaps "determined by", but I'm not sure. Linguixperiments ( talk) 01:20, 20 March 2009 (UTC) I've started cleaning up this translation. Linguixperiments ( talk) 01:32, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
It would be very helpful if someone who knows Japanese could translate some terms: 江田船山古墳 鐵劍 Likewise, there are terms in the Vietnamese and Korean sections of the Chinese article which I don't know how to translate. Linguixperiments ( talk) 03:02, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for getting those first two paragraphs done, Linguixperiments. I'll take over from here. White whirlwind ( talk) 23:14, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
I rearranged and combined several sections to ensure the redundancies in the Chinese version were kept out of the translation. Some material related to Korea and Vietnam has been omitted. This was a fairly technical translation and these sorts of articles shouldn't be undertaken except by the more expert translators. If anyone encounters a particularly difficult, technical, or otherwise important translation (preferably on a Classical or ancient subject), post it on my Talk Page and I'll do it. White whirlwind ( talk) 22:59, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
Interesting article. Could the reader (who may not speak or read Chinese or Japanese) also be directed to English language references for the article? That would be very useful. Thank you. Corlyon ( talk) 15:21, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
In ancient China and Korea, when someone committed a big crime, the three sets of relatives were annihilated for the principle of guilt by association which was referred to as 'samjok myeolmun jihwa', 고대 중국·한국 등에서는 어떤 사람이 큰 죄를 범하면 '삼족멸문지화(三族滅門之禍)'라고 하여 혈연의 삼족을 형벌에 연좌(緣坐)시키기도 하였다.
I see tianxia is used throughout, even in the section discussing uses of the concept outside China. Sentences like "the Shogun was referred to as 'Man of Tianxia'" look a little strange, considering that the modern Putonghua pronunciation tianxia has never been used in Japan. I would have expected the Japanese word tenka to be used instead.
I have not changed the article myself because I can see a reasonable counterargument (it might confuse readers if the article used several different words to describe the same concept), and I don't know what Wikipedia style dictates.
But I think the actual forms of the word as used in Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, etc. should probably be given somewhere in the article even if they are not going to be used directly. (Again, I'm not sure where that should be.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.33.168.195 ( talk) 03:08, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
I don't think that "天下為公" means "All is equal under heaven". "公" here, is supposed to be considered as "public, everyone" not "equal". So 天下為公 should mean, literally "under heaven(Tianxia) belongs to the public(everyone)". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Imyzc ( talk • contribs) 03:50, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: reverted bold move; moved back to Tianxia. Treating this as a technical request to revert an undiscussed move. wbm1058 ( talk) 18:39, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
All Under of Heaven →
Tianxia?AllUnder Heaven? – Please move back to the original title, which was changed without discussion, but now blocked by redirects. "All Under of Heaven" is not the common English name. It is nowhere found in a Google Search:
"All Under of Heaven" except for this Wikipedia article and the edits of the perhaps good faith edits elsewhere. The history of this article in the section above very helpfully done by
Wbm1058 show the tangled history of the edits by
冏, whose userpage and contribs should be checked by an admin.
ch (
talk)
17:33, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
My Google search found several academic sources supporting the idea that "All under heaven" is the common English meaning of Tianxia. Most of the "controversy" surrounding the English meaning seems to have been introduced by Hero (2002 film), in particular the alternate meaning " our land". Academic sources seem to form a consensus for "all under heaven" rather than "our land".
There is widespread usage of Tianxia in English-language sources, so there is no clear indication on whether we should favor Tianxia or "All under heaven". Each seems valid.
The Google ngram gives no clear answer to these questions, other than indicating that the compound tianxia seems to be favored over tian xia. There is more long-term support for "All under heaven", but some of that may be from sources not related to China. Tianxia has come on strong more recently, with usage picking up since the mid-1970s. – wbm1058 ( talk) 19:38, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
This most recent title strikes me as broken English from a non-native speaker. – wbm1058 ( talk) 17:05, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Hmm:
Just as an aside, I'm familiar with that last one from an archaeological exhibition: Son of Heaven: Imperial Arts of China
What is an " all under"? – wbm1058 ( talk) 17:19, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Why did we devote 75% of the article to the film? Tianxia is one of the most common phrases in Chinese - nearly every ancient Chinese source you see has a very broad reference or a whole chapter devoted to it - Lunyu, Daxue, Zhuangzi, etc. Tianxia is the subject of some of the most common Chinese proverbs and phrases: 天下无难事, 天下第一, 天下大事, 天下为公, 三分天下 of Zhuge Liang, 天下布武 of Nobunaga Oda, 治国平天下 of Confucius, to name a few. Tianxia, "Under heaven", has the same usage as "World". Having 75% of the article about a mere film is like having 75% of the article describing the Globe Theatre in the article World. I have removed large chunks of pathetic nonsense and irrelevant or POV claims from the article. Now let's put some real info in the article. Aran| heru| nar 12:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Lots of translation work needs to be done from the Chinese version of the article. Is there a tag we can stick at the top of the article that requests help to translate content from other language versions of the article? If not, I can create one. There are a lot of Chinese articles with content that could be translated into their English counterparts. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 03:57, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I gotta say, this article is really kind of crappy when you compare it to the Chinese version. If I can muster up the time, maybe I'll do some translation work. But I do urge any other editors who can translate Chinese to English to also contribute if they have the time. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 23:53, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
The Japanese Wikipedia defines 天下統一 'unification of all under heaven' as follows:
天下統一(てんかとういつ/てんがとういつ)は、主に日本の戦国時代から江戸時代初期にかけて、日本全土(琉球と蝦夷地の大半を除く)を、自らの支配下に置き日本全土を統一する事を指す。
Rough translation: Tenka tōitsu, mainly from the Sengoku period to the early years of the Edo period, referred to the placing of the whole of Japan (excluding Ryuku and Ezo) under one's control and uniting the whole of Japan.
However, there is a historical dimension to this:
「天下」の本来の意味では、その支配地域に境界はなく、秀吉は1590年に日本を統一すると、92年からは対明出兵(文禄・慶長の役)を実行する。秀吉の朝鮮出兵は失敗に終わり、徳川将軍家が支配する江戸時代になると、「天下」は日本列島に限る意味で用いられた。
Rough translation: In the original meaning of tenka, there were no boundaries to the area of control. Having unified Japan in 1590, Hideyoshi in 1592 sent troops against the Ming (Bunroku and Keicho campaigns). Hideyoshi's campaign against Korea failed and in the Edo period under the control of Tokugawa Ieyasu, the use of 'tenka' was confined to the Japanese islands.
Roadrunner added the words 'and their ultimate goal was to invade the Asian mainland and become Emperor of China'. This is a broad-brush statement and puts a very particular slant on the Japanese and the goals of Hideyoshi and Tokugawa. Before adding such provocative statements, it would be useful to ensure that the entire picture is being conveyed. (For instance, try translating the entire section on 天下 in Japan from the Chinese Wikipedia).
Bathrobe 03:04, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I've written a first draft of the first two paragraphs. I've gone for a fairly literal translation, so it would be a good idea to edit this some before incorporating it into the article: - The expression "天下" as a term for the world was first used by the Han people of China. Later, the idea spread to other parts of East Asia. The idea deeply influenced the history of East Asia and the peoples of East Asia. The expression's basic meaning is "(all) under the common sky" (普天之下). However, the meaning is not just a concept of geography or space. It is also used to describe a particular kind of geographical location. The concept of "all under heaven" is determined by the worldview of a particular region, people, or nation. The idea should be considered to reflect a particular region's or people's worldview. Index: 1 The Idea 1.1 China 1.2 Japan 1.3 Korea 1.4 Vietnam 1.5 Mongolia and pastoral-nomadic people of Asia 2 Historical Evolution 1.1 China 1.2 Japan 1.3 Korea 1.4 Vietnam 1.5 Mongolia and pastoral-nomadic people of Asia 3 Further Reading 4 Notes 5 References
The Idea China In China, "all under heaven" indicates all that was ruled by the Chinese emperor. It was the theory of rule of that particular area. This area under control of the Chinese court was called Xia (夏), Hua (華), Zhongxia (中夏), Zhonghua (中華), Zhongguo (中國), and other names. This was distinguished from the surrounding "four sides" and the Yi (夷 "the barbarians".) However, if regions were put under Chinese imperial rule, then they would also be called part of "all under heaven". (See also: Sinocentrism, Chinese Imperialism, Tian). - I'm not sure of the correct translation for 秩序原理. It must mean something like "orderly theory" or perhaps "determined by", but I'm not sure. Linguixperiments ( talk) 01:20, 20 March 2009 (UTC) I've started cleaning up this translation. Linguixperiments ( talk) 01:32, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
It would be very helpful if someone who knows Japanese could translate some terms: 江田船山古墳 鐵劍 Likewise, there are terms in the Vietnamese and Korean sections of the Chinese article which I don't know how to translate. Linguixperiments ( talk) 03:02, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for getting those first two paragraphs done, Linguixperiments. I'll take over from here. White whirlwind ( talk) 23:14, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
I rearranged and combined several sections to ensure the redundancies in the Chinese version were kept out of the translation. Some material related to Korea and Vietnam has been omitted. This was a fairly technical translation and these sorts of articles shouldn't be undertaken except by the more expert translators. If anyone encounters a particularly difficult, technical, or otherwise important translation (preferably on a Classical or ancient subject), post it on my Talk Page and I'll do it. White whirlwind ( talk) 22:59, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
Interesting article. Could the reader (who may not speak or read Chinese or Japanese) also be directed to English language references for the article? That would be very useful. Thank you. Corlyon ( talk) 15:21, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
In ancient China and Korea, when someone committed a big crime, the three sets of relatives were annihilated for the principle of guilt by association which was referred to as 'samjok myeolmun jihwa', 고대 중국·한국 등에서는 어떤 사람이 큰 죄를 범하면 '삼족멸문지화(三族滅門之禍)'라고 하여 혈연의 삼족을 형벌에 연좌(緣坐)시키기도 하였다.
I see tianxia is used throughout, even in the section discussing uses of the concept outside China. Sentences like "the Shogun was referred to as 'Man of Tianxia'" look a little strange, considering that the modern Putonghua pronunciation tianxia has never been used in Japan. I would have expected the Japanese word tenka to be used instead.
I have not changed the article myself because I can see a reasonable counterargument (it might confuse readers if the article used several different words to describe the same concept), and I don't know what Wikipedia style dictates.
But I think the actual forms of the word as used in Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, etc. should probably be given somewhere in the article even if they are not going to be used directly. (Again, I'm not sure where that should be.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.33.168.195 ( talk) 03:08, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
I don't think that "天下為公" means "All is equal under heaven". "公" here, is supposed to be considered as "public, everyone" not "equal". So 天下為公 should mean, literally "under heaven(Tianxia) belongs to the public(everyone)". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Imyzc ( talk • contribs) 03:50, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: reverted bold move; moved back to Tianxia. Treating this as a technical request to revert an undiscussed move. wbm1058 ( talk) 18:39, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
All Under of Heaven →
Tianxia?AllUnder Heaven? – Please move back to the original title, which was changed without discussion, but now blocked by redirects. "All Under of Heaven" is not the common English name. It is nowhere found in a Google Search:
"All Under of Heaven" except for this Wikipedia article and the edits of the perhaps good faith edits elsewhere. The history of this article in the section above very helpfully done by
Wbm1058 show the tangled history of the edits by
冏, whose userpage and contribs should be checked by an admin.
ch (
talk)
17:33, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
My Google search found several academic sources supporting the idea that "All under heaven" is the common English meaning of Tianxia. Most of the "controversy" surrounding the English meaning seems to have been introduced by Hero (2002 film), in particular the alternate meaning " our land". Academic sources seem to form a consensus for "all under heaven" rather than "our land".
There is widespread usage of Tianxia in English-language sources, so there is no clear indication on whether we should favor Tianxia or "All under heaven". Each seems valid.
The Google ngram gives no clear answer to these questions, other than indicating that the compound tianxia seems to be favored over tian xia. There is more long-term support for "All under heaven", but some of that may be from sources not related to China. Tianxia has come on strong more recently, with usage picking up since the mid-1970s. – wbm1058 ( talk) 19:38, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
This most recent title strikes me as broken English from a non-native speaker. – wbm1058 ( talk) 17:05, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Hmm:
Just as an aside, I'm familiar with that last one from an archaeological exhibition: Son of Heaven: Imperial Arts of China
What is an " all under"? – wbm1058 ( talk) 17:19, 18 October 2017 (UTC)