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![]() | Note: the version of this article previous to the massive translation from Spanish can be seen at Threshing-board/Old. - Jmabel |
![]() | Threshing board received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article. |
We may be in for a bumpy ride. Here are a couple of notes left on my talk page by the author of the original Spanish-language article. - Jmabel | Talk 07:00, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Soy el autor del artículo original es:trillo (agricultura). ¡Gracias por la traducción!, pero es muy complicada debido a la gran cantidad de terminos agrícolas en desuso, no hablo muy bien el inglés, pero si puedo ser útil en algo avisadme.
Un saludo-- Locutus Borg File:Logo-Borg.gif, Talk to me 06:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Parva: Mies tendida en la era para trillarla, o después de trillada, antes de separar el grano. [1]
( Bale of grain tied by hand with its own straw and broad in the threshing floor)
Is there an English word for it? How about simply "grains (spread on the ground)"? -- Ignacio Errico 15:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
So is this basically what we would call "grain in the husk"?
My dictionaries all give things like "haystack" or just "pile of unthreshed grain". It sounds like the meaning here is a little more specialized; I suspect we may not have an English word. - Jmabel | Talk 22:57, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
This is my first pop at translation on wikipedia so I'll put it here
My dictionary smells like hand soap for some reason-- Shadebug 20:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I can see that some terms are going to come up over and over, so let's start a glossary. Also, if some of these turn out to be wrong, we can argue it here rather than for each individual instance. - Jmabel | Talk 00:30, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: Check date values in: |year=
(
help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (
link), in the page 258 says:
There must be a template for link with some entries of the Bible, for instance with Bible Gateway-- Locutus Borg File:Logo-Borg.gif, Talk to me 15:53, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm concerned that the Bible entries section may include original research. It includes a fair bit of interpretation of the Bible verses without providing citations (e.g. " The sedentarización [settling down] could cause a religious crisis; for that reason, much effort is put into protecting themselves from external influences"). I don't disagree with the interpretations, but I do think the section should definitely be shortened so that it has less interpretation of the verses.--Fagles 14:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I would tend to agree, though I've been translating it. It reads like a wonderful sermon resource, and has some interesting insights for the Christian, but could use some work before being in an encyclopedia. -- --Steve 14:40, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Why, even in Spanish, does the section on "The threshing-board in the Bible" begin with a discussion of common sayings in Spanish, which is not a biblical language? Even less appropriate for an article in English. We need to move this material elsewhere, and be explicit that the material about Spanish-language usage is not all applicable to English language usage. Conversely, that new section should also take up English-language usage. In particular, "threshing out" an issue (discussing it at length and possibly with difficulty, ultimately achieving clarity), and two submarines called USS Thresher; I'm sure there is more. - Jmabel | Talk 04:19, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I think that threshing carts should be mentioned earlier in the article, probably by moving the "Other threshing implements" section close to the beginning. One source of confusion is that the term "threshing-board" is not exacly the same as "trillo." We need to decide whether threshing carts are a kind of threshing-board, or instead are a different farming implemement that is somewhat similar to threshing-boards. In other words, is this article only about the trillo de rastro, or is it also about the trillo de rodillas? Fagles 14:29, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I think I've worked out what we should do with all of the specialized archaic Spanish vocabulary. I think we should have a section in which we talk about how, like many other technologies, threshing by traditional means had its own specialized vocabulary, and then use Spanish as an example. Of course, if we can find analogous English-language examples, we should give those as well. - Jmabel | Talk 03:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
This is referred to as 'literally "Punic handcart"' and later in the article as 'literally "Carthagininan handcart"'. It means basically the same thing, however I believe it should be one useage throughout the article. This would clear confusion, though this is a minor detail. I have no preference either way, and I need guidance as to which one is more correct and useful. Whetstone333 22:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
There are a few places where we say "sled" but perhaps should say "sledge". "Sled" in English tends to connote "snow sled". It's not wrong, just liable to be misread. - Jmabel | Talk 19:30, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps there is somewhere that the following belongs, but it is probably not this article:
Something that is beaten is also very stamped on. For this reason, sometimes in Spanish, a beaten path is called a trillo. Metaphorically, something that is very threshed can refer to a very common topic, very rotten. This circumlocution is probably based on the symbolic references of the tribula and the thresh in the Bible.
However, in this chapter we will come up against serious difficulties due to existence of several translations, versions and eschatological interpretations of analyzed biblical entries.
Apart from more erudite interpretations, only to indicate that a great part of the Pentateuch is devoted to reinforcing the inner links of the Jewish community, after the Exodus, an established time in the Promised Land. The Jews, from the time of Abraham, had been a nomadic people (or in continual movement). The sedentarization could cause a religious crisis; for that reason, much effort is put into protecting themselves from external influences, maintaining the purity of their traditions of their morality, and of their religion, trying to avoid contamination from idolaters.
- Jmabel | Talk 06:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I just finished the last bits of Spanish, except for Doña Mayor's old Spanish (where I asked Locutus of Borg for help). The article still needs plenty of editing, and tracking down the original Georges Duby in French, but I'd say it's ready to go live where more English-speaking eyes will see it and edit it.-- Homunq 14:34, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I see that SandyGeorgia removed the following, claiming that it goes against policy:
I'm not very active in Wikipedia these days, and perhaps guidelines or policy have changed, but as one of the main people who were initially involved in setting up standards for translations of Wikipedia articles from one language to another, I can say with certainty that for several years, and at least as recently as November 2006, guidelines on translation actively encouraged such notices when large portions of articles are translated. A similar notice can be seen, for example, in featured article Paragraph 175. But perhaps the guidelines have recently been changed and that featured article has not been modified appropriately. Anyway, someone probably should try to sort this out.
I know that the process for translation was recently completely reworked; I was involved in the early phases of that, but basically gave up on trying to understand some of where it was headed. So I have no idea now where to look for such guidelines; at a quick glance, discussion of whether to reference the foreign-language article has simply been dropped; I have no idea whether that was a deliberate decision or an inadvertant oversight. - Jmabel | Talk 23:55, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Here's what the last footnote at the end of the Biblical reference section said of 2 Samuel 12:29-31:
29And David gathered all the people together, and went to Rabbah, and fought against it, and took it. 30And he took their king's crown from off his head, the weight whereof was a talent of gold with the precious stones: and it was set on David's head. And he brought forth the spoil of the city in great abundance. 31And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under axes of iron, and made them pass through the brick-kiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon. So David and all the people returned unto Jerusalem.
That's not the way the KJV 1611 version looks! Here's what the real 1611 version of the KJV looks like (all of it sic):
29And Dauid gathered all the people together, and went to Rabbah, and fought against it, and tooke it. 30And he tooke their kings crowne from off his head (the weight whereof was a talent of gold, with the precious stones) and it was set on Dauids head, and he brought forth the spoile of the citie in great abundance. 31And he brought foorth the people that were therein, and put them vnder sawes, and vnder harrowes of yron, and vnder axes of yron, and made them passe through the bricke-kilne: And thus did he vnto all the cities of the children of Ammon. So Dauid and all the people returned vnto Ierusalem.
The footnote further said:
29So David gathered all the people together and went to Rabbah, fought against it, and took it. 30Then he took their king’s crown from his head. Its weight was a talent of gold, with precious stones. And it was set on David’s head. Also he brought out the spoil of the city in great abundance. 31And he brought out the people who were in it, and put them to work with saws and iron picks and iron axes, and made them cross over to the brick works. So he did to all the cities of the people of Ammon. Then David and all the people returned to Jerusalem.
That's what the 1982 NEW King James version says, but it's not what the real 1964 and 1988 versions of the KJV (not NKJV) actually says! The NKJV is problematic as far as this verse goes. The 1964/1988 KJV says this:
29And David gathered all the people together, and went to Rabbah, and fought against it, and took it. 30And he took their king's crown from off his head, the weight whereof was a talent of gold with the precious stones: and it was set on David's head. And he brought forth the spoil of the city in great abundance. 31And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under axes of iron, and made them pass through the brickkiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon. So David and all the people returned unto Jerusalem.
Hence there is no difference between this version and that of 1611 (except for typographical differences, they are not mistakes). So the whole footnote and the phrase in the text body was therefore wholly deleted as spurious, and it has nothing to do with the article topic contextually. Mdoc7 ( talk) 19:22, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I have completely revamped this section; it's mostly (98%) completed now. Mdoc7 ( talk) 03:51, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 11:53, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Threshing-board → Threshing board — The hyphen is unneeded/unusual. Many thanks in advance -- :bdk: 04:42, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
![]() | Note: the version of this article previous to the massive translation from Spanish can be seen at Threshing-board/Old. - Jmabel |
![]() | Threshing board received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article. |
We may be in for a bumpy ride. Here are a couple of notes left on my talk page by the author of the original Spanish-language article. - Jmabel | Talk 07:00, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Soy el autor del artículo original es:trillo (agricultura). ¡Gracias por la traducción!, pero es muy complicada debido a la gran cantidad de terminos agrícolas en desuso, no hablo muy bien el inglés, pero si puedo ser útil en algo avisadme.
Un saludo-- Locutus Borg File:Logo-Borg.gif, Talk to me 06:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Parva: Mies tendida en la era para trillarla, o después de trillada, antes de separar el grano. [1]
( Bale of grain tied by hand with its own straw and broad in the threshing floor)
Is there an English word for it? How about simply "grains (spread on the ground)"? -- Ignacio Errico 15:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
So is this basically what we would call "grain in the husk"?
My dictionaries all give things like "haystack" or just "pile of unthreshed grain". It sounds like the meaning here is a little more specialized; I suspect we may not have an English word. - Jmabel | Talk 22:57, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
This is my first pop at translation on wikipedia so I'll put it here
My dictionary smells like hand soap for some reason-- Shadebug 20:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I can see that some terms are going to come up over and over, so let's start a glossary. Also, if some of these turn out to be wrong, we can argue it here rather than for each individual instance. - Jmabel | Talk 00:30, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: Check date values in: |year=
(
help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (
link), in the page 258 says:
There must be a template for link with some entries of the Bible, for instance with Bible Gateway-- Locutus Borg File:Logo-Borg.gif, Talk to me 15:53, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm concerned that the Bible entries section may include original research. It includes a fair bit of interpretation of the Bible verses without providing citations (e.g. " The sedentarización [settling down] could cause a religious crisis; for that reason, much effort is put into protecting themselves from external influences"). I don't disagree with the interpretations, but I do think the section should definitely be shortened so that it has less interpretation of the verses.--Fagles 14:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I would tend to agree, though I've been translating it. It reads like a wonderful sermon resource, and has some interesting insights for the Christian, but could use some work before being in an encyclopedia. -- --Steve 14:40, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Why, even in Spanish, does the section on "The threshing-board in the Bible" begin with a discussion of common sayings in Spanish, which is not a biblical language? Even less appropriate for an article in English. We need to move this material elsewhere, and be explicit that the material about Spanish-language usage is not all applicable to English language usage. Conversely, that new section should also take up English-language usage. In particular, "threshing out" an issue (discussing it at length and possibly with difficulty, ultimately achieving clarity), and two submarines called USS Thresher; I'm sure there is more. - Jmabel | Talk 04:19, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I think that threshing carts should be mentioned earlier in the article, probably by moving the "Other threshing implements" section close to the beginning. One source of confusion is that the term "threshing-board" is not exacly the same as "trillo." We need to decide whether threshing carts are a kind of threshing-board, or instead are a different farming implemement that is somewhat similar to threshing-boards. In other words, is this article only about the trillo de rastro, or is it also about the trillo de rodillas? Fagles 14:29, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I think I've worked out what we should do with all of the specialized archaic Spanish vocabulary. I think we should have a section in which we talk about how, like many other technologies, threshing by traditional means had its own specialized vocabulary, and then use Spanish as an example. Of course, if we can find analogous English-language examples, we should give those as well. - Jmabel | Talk 03:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
This is referred to as 'literally "Punic handcart"' and later in the article as 'literally "Carthagininan handcart"'. It means basically the same thing, however I believe it should be one useage throughout the article. This would clear confusion, though this is a minor detail. I have no preference either way, and I need guidance as to which one is more correct and useful. Whetstone333 22:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
There are a few places where we say "sled" but perhaps should say "sledge". "Sled" in English tends to connote "snow sled". It's not wrong, just liable to be misread. - Jmabel | Talk 19:30, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps there is somewhere that the following belongs, but it is probably not this article:
Something that is beaten is also very stamped on. For this reason, sometimes in Spanish, a beaten path is called a trillo. Metaphorically, something that is very threshed can refer to a very common topic, very rotten. This circumlocution is probably based on the symbolic references of the tribula and the thresh in the Bible.
However, in this chapter we will come up against serious difficulties due to existence of several translations, versions and eschatological interpretations of analyzed biblical entries.
Apart from more erudite interpretations, only to indicate that a great part of the Pentateuch is devoted to reinforcing the inner links of the Jewish community, after the Exodus, an established time in the Promised Land. The Jews, from the time of Abraham, had been a nomadic people (or in continual movement). The sedentarization could cause a religious crisis; for that reason, much effort is put into protecting themselves from external influences, maintaining the purity of their traditions of their morality, and of their religion, trying to avoid contamination from idolaters.
- Jmabel | Talk 06:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I just finished the last bits of Spanish, except for Doña Mayor's old Spanish (where I asked Locutus of Borg for help). The article still needs plenty of editing, and tracking down the original Georges Duby in French, but I'd say it's ready to go live where more English-speaking eyes will see it and edit it.-- Homunq 14:34, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I see that SandyGeorgia removed the following, claiming that it goes against policy:
I'm not very active in Wikipedia these days, and perhaps guidelines or policy have changed, but as one of the main people who were initially involved in setting up standards for translations of Wikipedia articles from one language to another, I can say with certainty that for several years, and at least as recently as November 2006, guidelines on translation actively encouraged such notices when large portions of articles are translated. A similar notice can be seen, for example, in featured article Paragraph 175. But perhaps the guidelines have recently been changed and that featured article has not been modified appropriately. Anyway, someone probably should try to sort this out.
I know that the process for translation was recently completely reworked; I was involved in the early phases of that, but basically gave up on trying to understand some of where it was headed. So I have no idea now where to look for such guidelines; at a quick glance, discussion of whether to reference the foreign-language article has simply been dropped; I have no idea whether that was a deliberate decision or an inadvertant oversight. - Jmabel | Talk 23:55, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Here's what the last footnote at the end of the Biblical reference section said of 2 Samuel 12:29-31:
29And David gathered all the people together, and went to Rabbah, and fought against it, and took it. 30And he took their king's crown from off his head, the weight whereof was a talent of gold with the precious stones: and it was set on David's head. And he brought forth the spoil of the city in great abundance. 31And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under axes of iron, and made them pass through the brick-kiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon. So David and all the people returned unto Jerusalem.
That's not the way the KJV 1611 version looks! Here's what the real 1611 version of the KJV looks like (all of it sic):
29And Dauid gathered all the people together, and went to Rabbah, and fought against it, and tooke it. 30And he tooke their kings crowne from off his head (the weight whereof was a talent of gold, with the precious stones) and it was set on Dauids head, and he brought forth the spoile of the citie in great abundance. 31And he brought foorth the people that were therein, and put them vnder sawes, and vnder harrowes of yron, and vnder axes of yron, and made them passe through the bricke-kilne: And thus did he vnto all the cities of the children of Ammon. So Dauid and all the people returned vnto Ierusalem.
The footnote further said:
29So David gathered all the people together and went to Rabbah, fought against it, and took it. 30Then he took their king’s crown from his head. Its weight was a talent of gold, with precious stones. And it was set on David’s head. Also he brought out the spoil of the city in great abundance. 31And he brought out the people who were in it, and put them to work with saws and iron picks and iron axes, and made them cross over to the brick works. So he did to all the cities of the people of Ammon. Then David and all the people returned to Jerusalem.
That's what the 1982 NEW King James version says, but it's not what the real 1964 and 1988 versions of the KJV (not NKJV) actually says! The NKJV is problematic as far as this verse goes. The 1964/1988 KJV says this:
29And David gathered all the people together, and went to Rabbah, and fought against it, and took it. 30And he took their king's crown from off his head, the weight whereof was a talent of gold with the precious stones: and it was set on David's head. And he brought forth the spoil of the city in great abundance. 31And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under axes of iron, and made them pass through the brickkiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon. So David and all the people returned unto Jerusalem.
Hence there is no difference between this version and that of 1611 (except for typographical differences, they are not mistakes). So the whole footnote and the phrase in the text body was therefore wholly deleted as spurious, and it has nothing to do with the article topic contextually. Mdoc7 ( talk) 19:22, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I have completely revamped this section; it's mostly (98%) completed now. Mdoc7 ( talk) 03:51, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 11:53, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Threshing-board → Threshing board — The hyphen is unneeded/unusual. Many thanks in advance -- :bdk: 04:42, 27 October 2011 (UTC)