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Archive 1 |
I think Threads should have a link direct to Threads (television show), and a link to Thread, rather than redirecting to the latter - and no mention of the programme at all, until I put one in, which is strange as it would appear there used to be something related to the programme here. Plus lots of links to this page. Not entirely sure why the main article isn't here - maybe there's something on the talk page for it? sheridan 23:06, 2005 Jun 4 (UTC)
Large sections of this page are plagiarised from here [1] - i will either attempt a cleaup or leave a cleanup tag myself Tyhopho 21:20, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
The contributor of that material has been consulted, and he maintains that the material is not under copyright, and/or that no rights have been reserved, and that this justifies his use. This is incorrect on several grounds:
1. The source site has been under copyright from the time it was saved to disk. As its contents and its domain name show (btinternet.com is British Telecom), it was created in the United Kingdom, where copyright inheres in a work from the time it is recorded. (The same is true in the U.S., incidentally.)
2. The Berne Convention requires that copyright protection be extended automatically, without requirement of notice or registration. The U.K. has been party to the Berne Convention since 1887. (And yes, Wikipedia does have to honor British copyrights, since it is legally located in Florida, and the U.S. acceded to the Berne Convention in 1989. Thanks for asking.)
3. Initially, the author is the sole holder, not only of the rights to copy, to distribute copies, to display, and to create derivative works, but also of the right to sell or assign these rights. Unless he exercises this latter right, the other rights never pertain to anyone else—they are 'reserved' by default.
4. User:Jim62sch concedes that an attribution to the source is necessary, but seems to believe that it is also sufficient. Citation resolves plagiarism, which is a problem of intellectual honesty, but under the circumstances it has no bearing on copyright infringement, which is a problem of law. Most particularly, a citation would not make this a fair use of text.
5. It is worth noting that the front page of the source site does contain a copyright notice, although it does not say whether this notice concerns merely that page, or the whole site. (The whole site is protected anyway, as previously discussed.) From the fact that the author did put this notice on his front page, I infer that he could well have put a waiver or license of rights on the Threads page, had he wished to. Because he did not do so, I infer that he meant it to have just the protected status that it does have. Your conclusions may differ.
Enough theory. On a practical level, I've emailed the author a request for permission, with an explanation of the GFDL and a promise to remove the offending material if he dislikes it. I told him I'd assume permission refused if I didn't hear back in two weeks. So if you don't hear from me on or before
April 26, feel free to
nuke
nuke the offending edits.
eritain
02:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Am I the only one that feels that this article over-describes the film? You need not watch it; just read the Wikipedia article. Look at the plot sections in Casablanca, Gone With The Wind and The Deer Hunter (to name three I pseudo-randomly chose). Furthermore, a lot of the parts have been copied verbatim from the film's narrator. Stonefield 09:04, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
There was no mention of the extremely scarce 1987 VHS release so I have added this. I would also cast doubt on the claim that the 2000 DVD release "soon went out of production" or "quickly became a collector's item" - I picked up a heavily discounted copy in 2003 and I noticed at the time it was available from most of the major online retailers at a comparably low price. I have modified accordingly. DickTurnip 19:23, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
An offhand comment in the introduction calls "The Day After" "theoretically inaccurate". To what does this comment refer? (Without supporting references, this is probably not NPOV.)
I think there should be a section in this article comparing the two films, as well as one in the
The Day After article.
–
Gravinos (
To each their own* *as long as they leave me alone.)
11:28, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm interested. There are many similarities but they may be shared via influence of other disaster movies, especially the crowd scenes. Overall, I'd say The Day After epitomizes the American attitude and Threads the British. Threads simply benefits from its brilliant writing, direction, everything . . . the ultimate disaster movie with everything on top. Plus an internal level of symbolism that The Day After doesn't really aspire to. The Day After does have superior effects of the actual explosions, the cinematic equivalent of gut-punch after gut-punch. But Threads just connects deeper with the full scale of the horror/pathos/insanity. The woman spontaneously urinating. The cat. The rape. The dog barking in panic to her childbirth. Her daughter's mutant foil. Threads is the one fictional movie I've seen which so terrified me I had no choice but to watch it again, and again, and again (without sound), and years later again to . . . anesthetize myself. Innoculate myself from the fear.
I'm from Oregon by the way. I REMEMBER The Day After (I was 7 in '84 with family and neighbors present) but Threads wove itself deep inside me. Writer and Director deserved the Nobel Peace Prize for this. Magmagoblin ( talk) 12:58, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't call if it is plagarism or not - the writing doesn't read well.
If we decide that a more detailed plot outline is appropriate, we can use this as a source, but it needs (a) substantial reworking and (b) a citation in order to make it (a) not plagiarism and (b) not sucky. I don't think we need this much detail in any case. So, with apologies to those who worked on it, copyedited it, improved the style, and wikified it, here's the big honking copyvio that cannot remain any longer. eritain 01:34, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
{{spoiler}}
"In an urban society everything connects, each person's needs are fed by the skills of many others. Our lives are woven together in a fabric, but the connections that make society strong also make it vulnerable".
Introduced by these words, Threads is set in the depressed industrial city of Sheffield, England, and centres on two families: the Kemps and the Becketts. It is Saturday, March 5 [1]. Ruth Beckett (Karen Meagher) and Jimmy Kemp (Reese Dinsdale) are courting, and in the first scene of the film, they are in Jimmy's parked car overlooking Sheffield. Captions note that the city is 17 miles away from RAF Finningley, a base for both USAF F-4 Phantoms and an RAF communication center, thus making it high priority military target.
The political background is a US backed coup in Iran, the subsequent invasion of northern Iran by the USSR to take over oil fields in the south and west, and tactical moves by the Warsaw Pact and the North Atlantic Treaty organization (NATO) in East Germany and West Germany.
The film jumps ahead to May 11, and the Becketts are awaiting a visit from the Kemps, since Ruth is pregnant with Jimmy's child, and they are planning to get married. Meanwhile, the BBC reports that the American submarine Los Angeles has been attacked and destroyed in the Persian Gulf, and the United States has announced that it plans to send a rapid deployment force into western Iran in order to block any possible Soviet move towards the oil fields.
In a pub, Jimmy and his friend Bob are discussing the international situation over a pint, when it is announced on the TV that the United States has accused the Soviets of moving nuclear warheads into their new base in Iran. Bob's concluding comment is "... I'll tell you one thing; if the bomb does drop I want to be pissed out of my mind and straight underneath it when it happens...."
The United Kingdom has emergency plans for war, which it begins putting into effect. Should the central government fail, power can be transferred to a network of local officials. In an urban area like Sheffield, there is already a designated wartime controller -- the city's peacetime chief executive. If and when this transfer happens depends on the crisis itself.
On Saturday, May 21, the Ministry of Defence begins to move troops into mainland Europe on the border with East Germany. British Airways and all cross-channel shipping and ferries are commandeered for this purpose. Peace rallies are held throughout the country in an attempt to defuse the situation. The United States demands a joint withdrawal from Iran by noon on Sunday, May 22. The Soviets refuse.
Overnight reports indicate build-ups of Soviet forces along the Iranian border and in East Germany. At 1PM local time on Sunday, one hour after the US ultimatum expires, American B52-Gs strike the Soviet base in Iran with conventional weapons. The Soviets defend the base with a single nuclear air defence missile, resulting in the loss of many B52s. At 2PM, the United States retaliates with a tactical nuclear weapon, destroying the Soviet base, and the exchange stops.
In Britain, looting and lawlessness break out. On May 24, there are early reports of an outbreak of fighting between the United States and Soviets in Iran and the Persian Gulf. Parliament passes an Emergency Powers Act. Many begin to leave large population centers for the relative safety of the West Country and Welsh countryside. This movement is against government advice. Official Essential Service routes are set up to enable vital movements to continue (such as soldiers, tanks, ammunition, food, fuel and medical supplies), hence motorways are closed to all but military traffic . Known and potential subversives are arrested. [[:Image:Protectandsurvivecover.jpg|thumb| Protect and Survive|right]]
The American carrier Kitty Hawk is sunk in the Persian Gulf. America responds with an air and naval blockade of Cuba. Many people follow government advice to build improvised fallout shelters. Protect and Survive booklets are distributed, which include advice that a fall-out room should be set up with provisions for the family for 14 days stored within it. A 'lean-to' should be built out of boards, doors, etc., and rested against an inner wall. The Kemps build such a structure, the Becketts decide to use their cellar. A radio news broadcast notes "There has been a run on tinned food, sugar and other storable items that is causing shortages in some areas. A spokesman for the main supermarket chains says that fuel shortages are hindering re-supply and urged the public to calm down".
On May 25, Sheffield officials enter the bunker (more accurately, the basement/cellar used to store documents) under the Town Hall. Many officers have had no training; some discovered their emergency role only in the last few days, and almost all are unsure of their exact duties.
Ruth is with her parents, and has decided not to go into work because she is not feeling well; whether this is due to morning sickness or anxiety over the crisis it is not made clear in this scene. When her mother attempts telephoning Ruth's place of employment to tell them that she isn't coming in for work, her mother discovers that the telephone has been disconnected. The telephone preference system has been activated, allowing all but ten percent to be cut off at will, in order to allow hospitals, utilities, military bases and the like to still have a phone line. It also prevents spies listening in.
The UK Warning and Monitoring Organisation is responsible for issuing the " four-minute warning". The warning originates at RAF High Wycombe near London, and is relayed to over 250 control points in major police stations. Should war arrive, the police will activate the 7,000 automated warning sirens in the UK. These are backed up by 11,000 other warning points in rural areas, located in coastguard stations, hospitals, village shops and even pubs, these warning points sound the alarm by hand-siren. Small three person bunkers scattered all over the UK are staffed to sound the alarm and monitor blast and fall-out levels.
It is now 8:00 AM May 26. In the bunker under Sheffield town hall, a WB400 warning receiver [2] is making a 'ticking' sound [3], a nuclear ' all clear'. The Kemps are removing inside doors to use for their shelter, while the radio plays an information broadcast. By this time, public information films are being broadcast almost constantly.
At 8:30 AM, (3:30am in Washington D.C.), it is noted that over the last few days neither the President nor his staff will have had more than a few hours rest; this is when they may be asleep, and thus this is when Western response will be slowest. At 8:30 AM, the 'ticking' sound of the warning receiver is replaced by an alarm sound and the announcement "ATTACK WARNING RED", indicating an attack in progress. The police sound the Air Raid sirens, causing Jimmy and Bob to look for cover. At 8:35 AM single warhead is detonated high over the North Sea; the Electromagnetic Pulse knocks out power and communication systems. At 8:37 AM, the first salvos hit NATO military targets, including RAF Finningley. The Finningley blast breaks windows, and the nuclear flash blinds many in Sheffield who were caught outside. Ruth and her parents have taken shelter in their basement with their invalid grandmother (meanwhile, the family cat is killed), while the Kemps have attempted to build a makeshift shelter using doors and furniture. This first salvo totals 80 megatons. Seeing the mushroom cloud rising from RAF Finningley, Jimmy leaves Bob, and runs off to find Ruth. This is the last we see of him. The Kemps' son Michael panics, and runs outside.
The nuclear exchange escalates to include "Economic and industrial targets", with more strategic weapons being used. One of these large bombs is detonated over Sheffield, a one-megaton airburst warhead. Buildings explode and collapse (including the town hall over the bunker, trapping the officials inside) and milk bottles melt in the heat. The Kemps' young son Michael is either killed by the heat's blast or by a hail of falling bricks, or both, and Mrs. Kemp is blinded and maimed when she tries to save him instead of taking shelter in the inner refuge.
Initial casualties are between 2.5 and 9 million. An hour and 25 minutes after the attack (10:00AM) the first fall-out dust settles on Sheffield from a detonation in Crewe. About two thirds of the houses in the UK are in fire zones. Almost all windows are broken and most roofs are open to the skies. Fire fighting on any large scale is unlikely. Food distribution also unlikely for at least 3-4 weeks. In total, out of a 3,000 megaton exchange between East and West, an estimated 210 megatons fall on the UK -- that is the equivalent of 3.5 tonnes of high explosive for every person in the country.
The first duty of the Sheffield officials is maintaining communication with other control centres and assessing the damage. A large map on the wall is marked with concentric circles around the detonations. These "release bands" determine the length of time people will have to stay in their shelters.
The Kemps emerge from their shelter to a scene of total devastation. Their survival chances are minimal as the damage to their house has exposed them to fallout. They find Michael's body under rubble in the garden. Mrs. Kemp dies shortly thereafter from radiation and her injuries. The Becketts, living in a cellar outside the fire zone, still suffer radiation sickness but survive the initial effects of the attack. Ruth's grandmother dies in her sleep. While her parents are removing the body, Ruth decides to leave the basement. Shortly afterwards the house is raided by looters who kill her parents.
Finding medical help is almost impossible - without power, water or drug supplies there is almost no way any doctor could render anything more than basic help. Also, given the devastation of the attack, the effects of the one bomb that hit Sheffield would be enough to overwhelm all the resources of the UK's National Health Service.
The officials in the basement are as shocked by the events as anyone else. The Chief Executive and the Medical Officer are looking at the radiation map on the wall "Everybody here will be dead already... Around here 50% will still be alive, but they are as good as dead already, they have probably received a lethal dose".
The town hall bunker has a generator and food supplies for 2 weeks, but the blast brought down all four floors of the building, sealing the officials in. Getting lifting equipment to them is difficult. After an attempt is made to mount rescue efforts above, they all die of suffocation.
In the atmosphere, huge clouds of dust block out the sun, and over large parts of the northern hemisphere it starts to get dark and cold. In the center of large land masses like America or Russia the temperature drop may be as much as 25 degrees Celsius. Even in Britain, the temperature could fall to freezing or below for long periods.
On June 5th, 10 days after the attack, Ruth walks devastated streets passing charred bodies and a woman holding a dead baby. At Jimmy's house, she finds Mrs Kemp dead, and takes one of Jimmy's books as a keepsake. The killers of Ruth's parents are arrested and executed by firing squad. Ruth returns home to find that her parents are no longer there. A public information broadcast states that "... All able-bodied citizens, men, women and children should report for reconstruction duties commencing 08:00 tomorrow morning...."
A group of survivors (Jimmy's father amongst them) tries to break into a food storage depot; soldiers defend the depot with tear gas. Detention camps are set up to cope with the growing numbers of looters.
By 4 to 6 weeks after the attack, deaths from fallout are reaching their peak, disposal of bodies is difficult, digging pits by hand is not practical, and fuel is too valuable to be used for cremations. There are now between 10 and 20 million unburied bodies in Britain, which in turn give rise to epidemics such as cholera, dysentery and typhoid.
By now most who can have left cities and towns in search of food. In the grim economics of the aftermath is a harsh reality: a survivor who can work gets more food than one who can't, and the more who die, the more food left for the rest. Along with many others, Ruth is relocated to Buxton, which suffered fewer effects of the attack. Ruth, along with three others, is allocated temporary accommodation in a private home, over the objections of the homeowner, who kicks them out of this accommodation very soon afterwards.
Food is distributed after 4 weeks. The delay is partly organisational and partly deliberate, as there is a desire not to waste food on people who are going to die anyway. Even with supplies rationed to 1,000 calories per day for those who can work (and 500 calories for the rest), stocks do not last long and it is up to the remaining population to harvest what little crops have survived.
Ruth runs into Jimmy's friend Bob, and they band together and find a dead sheep. After some deliberation, they choose to eat it then use its coat to keep warm. Four months after the attack Ruth, alone, gives birth to a surprisingly healthy child and gathers with some survivors around a fire on Christmas Day. Aside from a caption that gives the date, the only thing to suggest it being Christmas is a shot that is a grim parody of a nativity tableaux; the day passes without celebration.
The sky is clearing and sunlight (heavy with ultraviolet radiation) is returning. However, with fuel stocks running low, this could be the last harvest done with tractors and combine harvesters. Lack of fertilizers and the like make the growing of crops very hard.
The first few winters are so harsh that most of the young and old die as their protective layers of flesh are thinner. The pace of the film quickens -- we see Ruth and her young daughter (whose name, Jane, is only revealed in the closing credits) working in the fields.
The population falls to about 5 million (the caption states that "population may fall to mediaeval levels, between 4 and 11 million people") within 8 to 10 years of the attack. The country is returning to population levels and standards of living similar to those of medieval times. A breakdown of language is evident among those born after the attack, making learning difficult.
Ten years after the attack, Ruth is in the final stages of cancer and looks far older than her years; she dies peacefully. By this time, basic electricity is in use again and we see mining and the use of steam engines. Ruth's people have even rigged up a television and VCR, which they use to show their children the few surviving recordings of pre-war programmes. The bitter irony being that the programme being shown is an episode of Words and Pictures, with a story about a family of skeletons. Jane and the other girls in the community are learning how to repair clothes.
Jane becomes pregnant as a result of being raped. As her contractions begin, she stumbles through the devastated landscape until she finds a hostel with electricity. Her baby is assumed disfigured, and possibly stillborn, a result of genetic mutation.
As Jane is about to scream at the sight of her baby, the movie ends.
{{endspoiler}}
References
The See Also section of this article was becoming a list of other works only tengentially related to this one. It was moved to List of nuclear holocaust fiction along similar, redundant, frequently overlapping lists from Jericho (TV series) and The Day After. See Talk:List of nuclear holocaust fiction. MrZaius talk 05:15, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Image:Threadsmoviecover.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 02:20, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
The section describing the 1985 repeat of Threads is almost entirely conjecture with nothing to substantiate it; having watched it at the time I know for a certainty that nothing of the man having his leg amputated was edited or omitted. There was no need for any of Threads to be edited for the After The Bomb season which is what it was part of -- it was shown at 21:25, only 5 minutes earlier that it's original showing on the 13rd September 1984 at 21:30. It's interesting to note that in The Times television listings it reports Threads on 23 Sept 1984 starting at 21:30 and finishing at 23:25 and on 1 Aug 1985 starting at 21:25 and ending at 23:20 indicating both broadcasts being of 1 hour 55 minutes. As their are no commercials on the BBC it is unlikely they would be of uneven duration. Any trims to the content would have removed at least 1 or perhaps 2 minutes from the running length of the film, particularly cuts as long as those detailed in this article.
There is a heavily sanitised version of Threads this may be in reference to that was broadcast on satellite (not BBC4) that has been bootlegged around the Internet that has many of the cuts referenced above. It was broadcast at or around 2003 but I am fairly sure it was not an edit made by the BBC. Clearly this article needs extensive revision. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gitfinger ( talk • contribs) 07:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
I have to agree that the plot section is much too dense and to a large degree fairly irrelevant. For the purposes of an encyclopedia this section needs extensive revision to both shorten it and to actually add more important details to the basis and origins of the plot. Simply writing a synopsis of the entire film neither does the film justice or has much learning value to it (various synopsis of the film are already widely available on the web). As time permits I propose completely rewriting this section. Gitfinger ( talk) 13:35, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Though I haven't the time to rewrite this as extensively as I would like (i.e. to discuss the play rather than simply reiterate the plot) I've tried to remove the worst of the errors and inaccuracies, removed much of the unverified and unverifiable presumptions in the section. If it isn't explicit in the film or the published play then I've removed it as these are really the only two primary sources for Threads. Statements like " Ruth is put to work in the farming effort, where workers are provided barely enough nutrition to survive" have been removed because from the film we don't know any of that is true; we don't know what the workers were given in exchange for their labour so its removed. We also don't know such things as "Their "education" seems to consist of watching a damaged videotape of the BBC children's programme" because we don't know from the film what context the children were watching the video in. Similarly I've tried to remove some of the irrelevancy: "it is not clear whether the damage to the tape is due to the effects of the war or simple over-use" which adds nothing to the understanding of the plot or the film as a whole. These are examples of what I've tried to achieve, the page's history will reveal all my revisions. Gitfinger ( talk) 14:18, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
There is still VASTLY too much information about the plot in this article. It's totally unnecessary.-- 79.65.187.70 ( talk) 18:05, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
There are two scenes in the movie that do not appear to fit into the plot, not advancing the storyline in any way that I can tell. Perhaps someone with access to the script (it's not online as far as I can tell) might have an idea of why the writers added these seemingly incongruous scenes. The first scene is when Jimmy makes out with a girl from the pub despite being engaged to Ruth. Is it meant to establish that Jimmy is an ordinary human being with ordinary human frailties? I thought that already had been established. Or is it meant to show that Jimmy's really not such a nice guy after all, so we don't feel much sadness when he (presumably) dies? Again, that doesn't make much sense, as the movie's full of decent people dying. The second scene that doesn't "fit" is when Ruth meets up with Jimmy's friend Bob. I was expecting them to stay together afterward, but Bob soon wanders off elsewhere. This doesn't make any sense, it would be far more logical for them to face the future together - being alone and pregnant must not be an appealing proposition for Ruth, and for his part Bob would certainly be expected to feel some sense of responsibility toward Ruth. The part about the dead sheep would have worked just as well if it involved Ruth and a random stranger. Again, I was hopeful that the script might shed some light on this scene. User: PROSA —Preceding undated comment added 02:41, 1 June 2011 (UTC).
I have removed completely "The VHS/DVD releases have a modified soundtrack (compared with the broadcast version) because of rights issues." because it is completely unverified. There are essentially only two pieces of music in Threads, at the beginning when Ruth and Jimmy are in the car and " Johnny B. Goode" is playing, a piece of classical music Jimmy's sister listens to as she does her homework and a coda of " Johnny B. Goode" that is heard whilst Ruth's daughter, Jane, stumbles through the rubble of a city ( Sheffield? Buxton?) before giving birth. Unless the issue of rights issues can be verified there is no point in leaving conjecture in the article. It makes sense to reinstate if proper references can be provided, until then it shouldn't appear. Gitfinger ( talk) 11:18, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
This is really getting a bit silly. The fact that the stated date of the attack - Thursday 26 May - applies to 1983 or 1988 is a self-evident fact, and is no less valid a detail regarding the plot of the play than much of what is already in the summary. We do not have to cite proof of something that is as plainly obvious as "grass is green". Nick Cooper ( talk) 07:28, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
There doesn't seem to be much mention of the impact of the film following broadcast. The Day After features a substantial section (with the very important impact it had - even on World Leaders). I know from a personal point of view at 14 years old I was terrified and haunted by it - and so was everyone I knew who saw it - including teachers at school, adults and many discussions on TV. Does anyone know where to find this info, or does anyone have it already? For the type of film it was and particularly the era in which it was shown, the impact is especially important I think.-- Tuzapicabit ( talk) 20:14, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Vooz, before you make any more changes, please note the following:
Nick Cooper ( talk) 07:48, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Nick Cooper: I removed those portions. However, I stand by my other changes:
My rewrite is based upon an extensive, frame-by-frame review of Threads. I would be happy to post screencaps to support each of my claims. I don't mind if the Britishisms are put back in (even though I find the whole controversy to be both priggish and stupid), but kindly do not revert my other changes unless you have some evidence from the film to support the reversion.
-- Vooz ( talk) 16:38, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Nick Cooper: You know something, Nick? It's douchebags like you that make people hate Wikipedia.
That being said, I quit. You win. Revel in your victory. Oh, and kindly do me the "favour" of shoving this article -- and your "television play" -- up your Pommie "arse".
-- Vooz ( talk) 23:46, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Nick Cooper: File:Faceityoureahomo.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vooz ( talk • contribs) 18:45, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
Nick Cooper: LOL. The truth hurts. Vooz ( talk) 20:35, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
I've removed the addition of this information, because it asserts a direct connection between the exercise and the TV production without any proof. It is known that Hines carried out extensive research into the subject, and was revising the script even as new material became available during the filming process. The Radio Times for the week of the first broadcast, for example, mentions a World Health Organisation report that came out at the same time as the Curbar Edge scenes were being filmed in February 1983. Hines no doubt did make use of Operation Squareleg, but I can't find a direct contemporary or later reference to it, so to include it in the manner it was here is giving it undue prominence. Nick Cooper ( talk) 10:09, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Has Anyone come to any further conclusion about the inclusion of Square Leg in the film? I am writing an extensive paper on the topic and have found correlations, but have found no direct evidence. ---Incidentally. It is EXERCISE Square Leg, not Operation. It was one of three exercises in Operation Crusader 80: Jogtrot, Spearpoint, and Square Leg.
Djkinney (
talk)
20:33, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
External links point to YouTube and Google Video copies of Threads. Are these allowed under copyright, or should we remove them? Jaimeastorga2000 ( talk) 18:06, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
I see that this has crept back into the plot summary again, despite the reality having been properly cited in the past. The published script states verbatim (page 234):
That's it. No "rape," no "overpowering," and clearly no intention by the writer that it should be anything other than mutual. Nick Cooper ( talk) 22:23, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
Unhappily, there is no account of criticism of this programme on this article. I've seen Threads, and the whole thing reads like a plea for unilateral disarmament by the West on behalf of the BBC.
I am sure that, at the time, there would have been more contemporary and pertinent criticism, quite possibly led by Lady Olga Maitland and Women and Families for Defence, which is worth noting here. At the moment all I can find on Wikipedia is praise of the programme. Uncantabrigian ( talk) 19:26, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
PROSA has twice attempted to add speculative detail to the plot section, including:
Speculation. A video recorder is seen in use. There is no indication if this is running off a generator, stored batteries, or a wider electricity grid, "limited" or otherwise.
Apart from the inappropriate foreign dialect spelling, they're actually picking threads from old garments, which isn't the same as "repairing" them, at all. There is nothing to suggest they are "training," as opposed to doing the work "for real."
It is actually an extract from the BBC Schools TV programme Words and Pictures, which had - and continues to have - a much wider scope than merely teaching the alphabet. In summary, all of PROSA's additions are speculation, and mostly wrong, at that. Nick Cooper ( talk) 01:03, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
Hey Nicky Boy, I just reversed *your* reversal of my edits. Two can play at this game, and this being Wikipedia you're no better than me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PROSA ( talk • contribs) 20:55, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
Erik, the February 2007 revision actually looks pretty good, I would say it summarizes the movie better than the current one. It contains one error, however, as it says that Ruth dies 13 years after the war, when it's actually 10 years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PROSA ( talk • contribs) 18:46, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
Reference has been made to the use of electricity again, the video player was connected to the mains by a plug on which the camera settled for a number of seconds. I don't feel anyone needs to justify it's inclusion in the plot. Hayek79 ( talk) 11:10, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
Is she the young blonde woman seen among the people imprisoned in the tennis club later in the movie? -- PROSA ( talk) 03:40, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
After the three looters are caught leaving the Beckett house, a soldier reports to his commander that there are two bodies in the cellar. However, I can't quite make out whether he says that they have been dead for a while or that they have not been dead for a while. Obviously, if they've been dead for a while the looters were not responsible for their deaths, and the main article is incorrect. What does the script say? -- PROSA ( talk) 04:50, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Okay, these are minor mistakes, certainly not on the level of, say, the self-repairing windshield on Sonny's car in The Godfather's infamous toll booth scene, but given that Threads has an otherwise very well-crafted screenplay they do stick out a bit:
1. Shortly after the attacks, one of the emergency planning team in the City Hall basement reports that one of the local police departments made it to a road works depot, unfortunately the heavy equipment at the depot is nearly out of fuel and hence useless. Given all the careful emergency preparations that local governments undertook as the crisis escalated, such as discharging patients from hospitals and moving fire engines out of the city center, one would logically presume that the responsible parties would make sure that the heavy equipment at the depot (which might well come in very handy after an attack) would be fueled and ready to go. For that matter, it's rather unlikely that the depot managers would let their heavy equipment be nearly out of fuel even in completely normal circumstances.
2. After the first bomb hits the RAF base, Jimmy flees his workplace on foot in search of Ruth. In the few minutes that elapse before the second, much larger attack, Jimmy makes it into the center of Sheffield. This would mean that the workplace, Don Joinery, must have been very close to the city center - and therefore would have been annihilated in the second attack. Yet Jimmy's workmate Bob remained behind at Don Joinery and survived unscathed. PROSA ( talk) 02:43, 26 July 2011 (UTC)PROSA
If anyone wants to challenge my recent edit of the article, then please I welcome it. - Despite the movies overt insinuation that grotesque congenital abnormalities would be far more prevalent in a post Nuclear war environment, The real world data supports that Microcephaly is the only proven malformation, or congenital abnormality, found in the in Utero developing Human fetuses present during the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings[2]. Furthermore this abnormality was only found in pregnant women within the extremely close range of 1-2 km from the hypocenter of the Nuclear explosions. In the case of Jane's pregnancy, No statistically demonstrable increase of major congenital malformations was found among the later conceived children of Nuclear weapon survivors in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boundarylayer ( talk • contribs) 15:11, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Just Noticed someone removed the Criticism section without consulting here first to discuss the matter.
The alleged reason for deletion was apparently that the section didn't cite specific criticism of the movie itself. As the Movie presents itself in a documentary like manner, and strived to be accurate in its protrayal then the criticisms previously raised are warranted. Furthermore, to placate I will include this cited criticism of the documentary itself, a criticism that is based on less techical grounds -> http://www.anthropoetics.ucla.edu/ap1001/bartlett.htm Despite the authors personal liking of the movie and having many positive things to say about it, they also note that - impressing us with the horror of the impending end of the world by nuclear warfare is no guarantee that our being so impressed will produce a desire in us to help "save" ourselves, let alone "save the world" from nuclear weapons. Inasmuch as the esthetic of Threads elicits serious horror, it creates the side-effect of serious despair, a despair that inhibits ethical conduct and invites fatalism--ironically, the fatalism one would expect its makers not to wish having created. More than any nuclear warfare movie, Threads risks destroying our faith in human agency by insisting on the "unrelievedly bleak" & the viewer might feel propelled to supplement Hines and Jackson’s Threads with the possibility for hope it obliterates in its obliteration of civilized Sheffield and its natural ecology. Otherwise, the film’s horror has no ethical import, and its effect might amount to the pornography of violence wearing the mask of anti-nuclear "awareness." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boundarylayer ( talk • contribs) 08:32, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
You wrote - so even if factually correct, it is still only your personal theory/opinion. wait wait wait, You've lost me, how is something factually correct also classified as 'only an opinion' in the same sentence? Is that some kind of doublespeak?
Does 'Threads' not present itself as a documentary? If a documentary is misleading, is it not the job of knowledgeable editors to point out such errors? Is that not exactly what I have done with a heavy degree of quality medical references?
As original research states: To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented.
Similarly You wrote- I request that you do not reinstate the first paragraph in any form, unless you can come up with reliable sources dealing directly with the issues in relation to the programme itself
For some reason you decline to acknowledge, that the criticism of the misleading deformity increase presented in 'Threads' IS directly related to the topic of the article. It is 'in relation to the documentary itself', as it pretains to 'Threads' insinuation that Congenital deformed children would be more commonplace in survivors offspring after a Nuclear war. The issue 'in relation to the documentary itself' is that on the other hand the medical data however does not support the 'Threads' point of view of. On the contrary the Radiation Effects Research Foundation have very clear findings that refute 'Threads' point of view that children would be more deformed in a post Nuclear war environment.
The RERF clearly state- No statistically significant increase in major birth defects or other untoward pregnancy outcomes was seen among children of survivors. Monitoring of nearly all pregnancies in Hiroshima and Nagasaki began in 1948 and continued for six years. During that period, 76,626 newborn infants were examined by ABCC physicians. http://www.rerf.or.jp/radefx/genetics_e/birthdef.html
The RERF ( the authority on Nuclear weapon survivor epidemiology) data has been available for quite some time, yet the makers of 'Threads' clearly, in this regard, decided to either poorly research the subject or wholesale throw the available science data out the window in making this documentary.
You're quite right though about Undue weight being given to an argument, and that argument is 'threads'- that Congentially deformed children would be born far more prevalently after an nuclear war, this is sheer flat-earth nonsense, but widely seen regurgitated ad nauseum on TV, including unfortunately, in 'Threads' seemingly for dramatic effect.
Secondly and inconsequentially, you call a UCLA paper which deals not just with 'Threads' but with a plethora of other Nuclear war depictions in the media as 'fringe' despite the paper referring to 'Threads' directly. This is very odd behaviour on your part. Not to mention you've expressed the opinion that you wish to see only a 'contemporary critical reaction' section included in this article, and not any kind of scientific criticism of the films events to be included, that's down right bizarre. From the casual observer it is beginning to look like you simply don't want there to be any effort to educate those that use this encyclopedia on the inaccuracies in 'Threads', or to put it mildly the creative licences taken by the film makers for dramatic effect.
In the Bible criticism article, no scientific rebuttal needs to find references directly criticising the Bible, by name, for a scientific rebuttal to gain equal presentation in the article. They simply have to point out observations, books and so on, that contradict what the bible is stating. Likewise here in relation to 'Threads' there is no Wikipedia policy that states one must never add anything in an article unless you have references that specifically mentions the article title by name.
Wikipedia policy however is that references must 'directly relate' to the topic. As 'Threads' presents an increase in deformed children in a post nuclear environment, and my referenced criticism 'directly relates' and rebuffs that very topic in 'Threads' then your accusation of Original Research is groundless.
You may need to take a look at Neutral point of view/FAQ 'Lack of neutrality as an excuse to delete' While the burden of establishing verifiability and reliability rests on those who are challenged about it, there is usually no need to immediately delete text that can instead be rewritten as necessary over time.
If you have a problem with the wording of the criticism, that's fine, I did begin this criticism section of this article by welcoming challenges, perhaps a more neutral approach, like removing 'insinuation' of deformities with 'creative license' might seem more neutral, although to get something so wrong in a state funded Documentary is pretty negligent, if I am to be frank.
However please do not remove well referenced medical references again that directly relate to refuting a central tenet of the Documentary that this article is about.
Thank you Boundarylayer ( talk) 19:31, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
Both Mirokado & Nick Cooper should look at: Neutral point of view/FAQ 'Lack of neutrality as an excuse to delete' -there is usually no need to immediately delete text that can instead be rewritten as necessary over time.
As I've already expressed, if you both feel that less text should be in the criticism section, that's fine, by all means whittle it down if you wish. That does not mean you may outright remove the information, as per Wikipedia's 'Neutral point of view' outlined above.
This quote of yours
Nick sadly exemplifies your lack of neutrality:
Threads is a drama, not a documentary (it is also not a "movie" as you keep claiming)
I noticed you were repeatedly attempting to dissuade others from describing Threads as a movie going back many years on this talk page. I previously didn't care to pick you up on it, but since you've again done so in a very pedantic of manners I thought I should make you aware that- Threads is a MOVIE & a 'Television drama', they're not mutually exclusive.
See- the internet MOVIE database http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090163/ notice TV Movie
http://www.allrovi.com/movies/movie/v49638 Notice 'Film', I used the word film also if you check.
http://www.anthropoetics.ucla.edu/ap1001/bartlett.htm the best movie treatment of nuclear war) is the BBC’s made-for-TV Threads (1984),
This next quote also exemplifies your lack of neutrality and bizarre bias, with yet another denial that it is a movie, going so far as to classify it as a 'play'.
Nick wrote-As regards the UCLA paper, it might be considered a valid source in the context of a proper section on critical reaction to the play,
This inaccurate description of threads as a play somehow even finds its way into the Article - ...One of the key elements of the play is that much of the reportage of world events leading up to the war is in the background...
It is not a 'Play' Nick, it is a movie. See Play & Movie as you're clearly confused. As you've continually refused to acknowledge this, for the past number of years this, I'm afraid, underlines your lack of neutrality. I wonder did you work on the Film?
http://www.screenonline.org.uk/tv/id/730560/ Threads documented Jackson and writer Barry Hines' research into the limits of Civil Defence
Even the director's wiki page describes it as a documentary Mick Jackson (director)- The 1984 docufiction Threads, dramatising the aftermath of a nuclear war, with Karen Meagher and Reece Dinsdale
Docufiction refers to the cinematographic combination of documentary and fiction.[1] More precisely, it is a documentary contaminated with fictional elements
Going by that definition, perhaps we should point out that the effects on Children as presented in Threads is one of the fictional elements studded within the documentary movie.
There is certainly more references to support that 'Threads' is at least somewhat a documentary, than there are references to support calling it a fantastical Play. but regardless, even if it was something like a comic strip, that does not mean it is free from criticism.
As for the pedantic question of Threads being a Documentary - Even if it's not, why are you contending it should be free from a rebuttal? The article on the satire Dr. Strangelove mentions quite a few rebuttals and demonstrates it is not realistic. Therefore even if the movie was wholly whimsical, to refute 'Threads' is not contrary to the rules of Wikipedia. Especially since the Threads article then /info/en/?search=Threads#Production_and_themes Goes on to list 6 Scientific advisors to the production, Are you honestly trying to make us beleive that this is normal practice when producing Plays or Television dramas Nick?
The listing of the scientific advisors insinuates to readers that the movie is somewhat an authoritative Document in film to what life would be like, after a Nuclear war.
However not a single 1 of the Scientific Advisors were Radiobiologists, with only Joseph Rotblat being anyway semi-qualified to advise on the effects of Nuclear radiation.
2 Psychiatrists - Robert Jay Lifton & Eric Chivian
2 Climatologists - Michael McElroy Richard P. Turco
2 Physicists - Joseph Rotblat Carl Sagan
Of note is that the form of Nuclear winter presented by Sagan & Turco above has been heavily revised since the 1980s, and recent modelling has shown their initial results to be based on many assumptions with many exaggerated findings. As discussed in Nuclear Winter.
Perhaps a mention of this should also be included in the criticism section, as yet another example of Threads being an exaggerated and unrealistic presentation of Nuclear war effects.
END.
You seemingly are demonstrating more bizarre behaviour, with contempt for years of science by saying to Extrapolate the potential long-term effects of a mass multi-megaton mixed air/groundburst attack on Britain with two relatively isolated low-kiloton airburst-only explosions is not particularly valid.
I'm not extrapolating ALL the long term effects, just 1 misleading long term effect presented in the movie, that of Hereditable congenital effects. As there is no solid evidence that this would be observed in reality, then this does deserve recognition and pointing out as fictional, a creative license on the part of the writers etc.
Nuclear Fallout is Nuclear Fallout Nick, it's by and large all created equal. The effects of Nuclear Fallout on survivors' progeny in Hiroshima & Nagasaki is more than Valid. As I've had quite a few courses in Radiobiology I have more than ample amounts of reading material, and I've even taken the time to prepare the following list of peer reviewed papers for you.
Before I begin, listen, I know that it is hard for many people to shake linking deformed babies and radiation from your beliefs, I've personally been there. The media constantly bombard us with that message by insinuation. The science however is pretty firm on the matter however, as I'll begin to outline.
There are many other examples that also confirm the ongoing evidence from the progeny of Hiroshima and Nagasaki survivors that no concrete hereditable effects are observed.
For example let's begin by putting Chernobyl into perspective-
https://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/nuke/effects.htm
The contamination from Chernobyl was significantly larger than would have been expected from a nuclear detonation of about 20 kT at ground level, but was comparable in extent to what might result from a 'small' nuclear war in which a dozen or so weapons of nominal yield were exploded at altitudes intended to maximize blast damage. The above FAS article was written in 1998, so one would assume 'nominal' would be approximately that of the W88 475 kt warhead. This(I acknowledge is Original research) but it puts things into perspective for both of us. 12(475kt)= 5700 kt. This is backed up by->
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2006/apr/26/guardiansocietysupplement7
Reactor No 4 at Chernobyl nuclear power complex exploded, caught fire, and for the next 10 days spewed the equivalent of 400 Hiroshima bombs' worth of radioactivity 400 x (16kt)=6400 kt. So my mental calculation wasn't too far off, although a caveat is that both sources can't be 100% right. Especially since modern Nuclear weapons are of the Teller-Ulam design, and thus unlike Little Boy at Hiroshima a large proportion of a modern weapons energy comes from Fusion, and not the main offender of Nuclear Fallout that of Fission.
So now that we have that covered, what about the progeny of the Liquidators of Chernobyl? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11121218 There was no significant difference in the frequency of inherited mutant alleles between the exposed and control groups.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11121218 'Germline mutations show no increases in the children of the Chernobyl liquidators.'
If you are still unsatistifed with these studies and think that even Chernobyl isn't enough to extrapolate, then how about Techa River about 500,000 people exposed to 20 times the radiation of Chernobyl.
http://phys4.harvard.edu/~wilson/publications/pp747/techa_cor.htm
Since genetic effects following radiation exposure might be anticipated, a study was conducted with the aim of assessing the health status of the offspring of people exposed in the Techa riverside villages. In particular, the unfavorable outcomes of pregnancies, birth rate, and the mortality rate among progeny of exposed parents are studied. No reliable effects of radiation were established.
Here, probably the most comprehensive unbiased review of all the papers up to 2001 for chernobyl, even including the controversial papers of Dubrova(which I wouldn't have included as they compare Belarus children to UK children, instead of a control group of healthy unexposed children from Belarus before the accident) http://www.unscear.org/docs/chernobylherd.pdf There is no unambiguous data to suggest Chernobyl increased the rate of Congenital abnormalities.
A bit of another digression (one you may skip if uninterested), but worth mentioning is Radiation Hormesis(I don't think there is enough solid evidence out there for it to be taken as gospel yet) but these studies are worth a read if you're interested.
What about Chronic exposure to low levels of Radiation?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21431077
Low levels of background radiation exist around us continuously. These levels increase with increasing land elevation, allowing a comparison of low elevations to high elevations in regard to an outcome such as cancer death rates etc...
Statistically significant decreases in mortality, with very large effect sizes, were observed in high land elevation for three of the four outcomes, including cancer.
What happens when you control for race? would the same positive results be evident? Yes- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22013397 Higher elevation counties showed less cancer mortality rates for a single race compared to lower elevation counties,
END.
Presenting all of is, including the previous RERF studies on Hiroshima & Nagasaki should finally make everyone accept that an increase in Congenital effects would not be observed in children after a widespread nuclear war. What would be observed is an equally horrible increase in Thyroid cancer, leukemia and other cancers, that is not at all up for debate. Not to mention malnutrition from the interruption of the food supply etc. But kids walking around like in 'Threads'...please don't insult our intelligence Mr. Hines & Jackson.
In closing, I hope we can come to some compromise, I propose something short and sweet like-
Shortened Compromise of the Criticism section. Despite the depiction of congenitally deformed children in 'Threads', in reality there is no unambiguous data available to suggest that exposure to the levels of Nuclear Fallout likely to be encountered by survivors in a 'threads' scenario would result in the effects on children as shown[here insert all the references I've included thus far relating to studies on children born after Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Chernobyl & Techa River etc.]
Threads (1984) was restrained by "the statutes governing British broadcasting which require that balance and fairness are maintained, in programs making what can readily be seen as politically related statements"
Some also have written that 'threads' is too fatalistic in it's representation of a Nuclear War and charged - the film’s horror has no ethical import, and its effect might amount to the pornography of violence wearing the mask of anti-nuclear "awareness." http://www.anthropoetics.ucla.edu/ap1001/bartlett.htm
END.
So what do you think? Boundarylayer ( talk) 09:10, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
Where did I write that I have an antipathy towards 'Threads'?
If there is any antipathy it is yours towards calling a spade a spade.
Terminology:
Threads was nominated for seven BAFTA awards in 1985. It won Best Film Cameraman, Best Film Editor, and Best Single Drama. Its other nominations were for Best Film Sound.
So BAFTA in 1985 regarded Threads as both a Drama and a Film. Well gosh, would you look at that, nothing about best Play or best television play. Funny that Nick.
If you had read up on the term Television play that you kindly linked to, you would know that it explains that the term is a partial misnomer- Although the earliest works were marked by television drama drawing on its theatrical roots, with live performances telecast from the television studio, a shift towards shooting on film occurred in the late 1970s.
http://www.screenonline.org.uk/tv/id/445349/index.html TV plays - AKA Teleplays were either performed live in the studio or filmed on stage; the word 'play' is about as fashionable as wide collars and tank tops
As we all know Threads was shot on film, and not telecast with live performances from the television studio, it is thus inaccurate to call Threads a Television play. Regardless of your personal preference for the dubious term being applied to Threads, it's not a Television play. Something myself and BAFTA recognise.
Furthermore The word Play that you consistently show a preference for to describe threads is in no way a synonym for your personal bastardisation of the meaing of Television play that is contrary to the accepted definition of that term. As a film like 'Threads' that includes no elements of an actual Play is thus quite obviously, not at all a Play! Similarly, in it's original format, Macbeth is a Shakespearean play and not at all a Film.
Henceforth to describe Threads as a Play is misleading and inaccurate. 'play' is certainly not shorthand for Television play as Threads has no elements of a true Play. Lastly, even if Threads were actually a Television play that is - a telecast of live performances from the TV studio and therefore the term would be historically more accurate than Drama, the fact would still remain that Threads is also classified as a Film. Threads is a Film & a drama(or the misnomer Television play that you prefer), as I've referenced.
Again, Film is not a mutually exclusive term, so you can keep your forthwith in your holster there cowboy, unless you want to go challenging BAFTA.
Threads', a feature length docu-drama based on the political situation at the time and the possibility of nuclear war. http://www.tes.co.uk/teaching-resource/Docu-drama-Threads-1980s-6192782/
Yet again, another British site that regards Threads as a Docu-drama.
Back to the original point-
The shortened compromise criticism : (relating to refuting the insinuation that there would be more congenital abnormalities after a Nuclear war) contains 50 words, not 300 as you suggest.
In response to the 'overt insinuation' that the film depicts a higher prevalence of congential abnormalities (You should note that, that specific wording is absent from the compromise edit).
The insinuation is there though, I simply ask you, what occurs in the film directly after the caption at c. 01:34:40 that reads:
Why Ruth delivers baby Jane! around 10 minutes later child bearing age Jane(who in the mean time has demonstrated her questionable mental faculties by uttering only simple commands, apparently unable to form full sentences) then becomes pregnant and delivers either a stillborn or a dead deformed baby (the film being deliberately ambiguous on this detail). The film then quickly happens to end with Jane screaming at the sight of the dead baby. Yet you somehow regard this as coincidental, and not at all linked to the previous caption regarding pregnancy and Fetuses?
According to your quote - That Jane's child is stillborn could be attributed to all manner of causes in a largely destroyed world without modern medical resources. Likewise, the apparent mental regression in the younger characters seen towards the end can just as easily be a result of a lack of education and a brutalised environment.
So you are honestly contending that the film doesn't insinuate that mental retardation and congenital deformities would be more prevalent? A Docu-drama about the effects of Nuclear War ending on a still shot of a likely retarded mother who just delivered a dead baby, isn't insinuating that still born, retarded & deformed babies would not be more prevalent because of the effects of radation. That this is all just circumstantial coincidence to you?
Ok, here are two examples that illustrate your standpoint is untenable.
Applying that thinking, to another caption, I take it you also regard it as a coincidence and not insinuation that directly after the caption c 1:39;30 that reads:
Skies becoming clearer, Returning sunlight now heavier in Ultra-Violet light
We see people working in fields wearing ski masks and goggles. According to your skewed reasoning applied here- the film isn't insinuating a connection between the caption and ski masks and goggles, no not at all they could easily have donned this attire simply because of something like the weather forecast was for snow, so everyone was getting acclimitized to skiing clothing. It is purely coincidence, and that it most certainly isn't insinuating that the field workers were wearing these things to protect themselves from the dangers of UV light.
Come now Nick, don't be ludicrious, every caption in the film follows with a connecting representation of the text. Another example:
Caption c 1:32:40
Attack in Spring: Darkness and Cold reduce plant activity to very low levels.
Is followed by none other than pictures of rotting crops and then film footage of frantic harvesting of the remaining crops that have survived.
As for the response from the Governing british broadcasting body and the references citing it: why shouldn't this be included? you mention it has no context, but the Broadcasting section of the article
Threads that would come directly below the proposed criticism section states that Threads was first broadcast on BBC Two on 23 September 1984.[4] It was repeated on BBC One on 1 August 1985...Threads was not shown again on British screens until the digital channel BBC Four broadcast it in October 2003. That's context enough do you not think?
In response to your claim of undue weight towards the following peer reviewed paper reference, http://www.anthropoetics.ucla.edu/ap1001/bartlett.htm Policy states in regard to undue weight. 'Editorial oversight—A publication with a declared editorial policy will have greater reliability than one without, since the content is subject to verification. Self published sources such as personal web pages, personally published print runs and blogs have not been subject to any form of independent fact-checking and so have lower levels of reliability than published news sources'
As UCLA publications' meet that criteria, it demonstrates that the reference is not at all classified as Undue weight.
Revised Shortened Compromise of the Criticism section. Feel free to chip in and contribute!
Despite the film's insinuations and text captions that depict and state the prevalence of congenitally deformed and mentally retarded children would be increased by the Nuclear Fallout, in a post Nuclear war scenario as depicted in 'Threads'. Studies of the progeny of survivors in Nuclear explosions and Nuclear accidents have found no unambiguous connection.[here we'll insert all the references I've included thus far relating to studies on children born after Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Chernobyl & Techa River etc.]
Threads (1984) was restrained by "the statutes governing British broadcasting which require that balance and fairness are maintained, in programs making what can readily be seen as politically related statements"
Some also have written that 'threads' is too fatalistic in it's representation of a Nuclear War and charged - the film’s horror has no ethical import, and its effect might amount to the pornography of violence wearing the mask of anti-nuclear "awareness." http://www.anthropoetics.ucla.edu/ap1001/bartlett.htm
Boundarylayer ( talk) 15:56, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
If the Caption in question was unprompted and Jane is intended to be protrayed as physiccally normal without mental retardation, as is her stillborn child. Then why don't you include what you have written to leave nothing up to ambiguity?
As to the disputed caption, one could equally say that the very fact that Jane is born with no physical deformity suggests no direct connection. It raises a possibility for dramatic purposes, which is then not borne out, and the script (page 229) does actually make this clear:
The BABY cries out, and RUTH sees that it is physically normal. She cries, and holds the baby to her.
As to Jane's "questionable mental faculties by uttering only simple commands," the script (pages 233-234) makes clear - by parallel printing of the "translated" dialogue - that this is a case of language having been degraded through a collapse in education, thus:
SPIKE Hoy! What'n be? (Meaning: 'What is it?') GAZ Seed'n. N'coney. (Meaning: 'I saw it. It's a rabbit.') SPIKE Giss'n. Come on. Giss'n. (Meaning: 'Give it to us.') GAZ Better, else us'll bray'n. (Meaning: 'You better had. Or else we'll beat you.')
Furthermore, the introduction explicitly states (page 15):
"In the future that Hines depicts, survivors from pre-Holocaust times still speak their language; but those who were born or grew up after the attack have developed a dialect of their own - gutteral and abbreviated, a language of survival and necessity."
Clearly the speech of Jane and her age-peers is a matter of linguistics, and not the result of some unseen yet universal deformity, so please stop trying to suggest that it is. The same applies to her stillborn child. You really do seem to be believing what you want to believe, rather than what there is actually any clear indication for on-screen, or in the script. Boundarylayer ( talk) 14:21, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
References
Nick, it's pretty misleading. Furthermore I'm not the first person in 10 years. As all the below sources suggest a deformed baby. So it appears it's a pretty frequent 'misinterpretation' as you put it, and there are many more sources supporting the same.
The movie ends with Ruth's daughter giving birth to a stillborn and presumably deformed baby. The film freezes just as she is about to scream in horror. http://threads.askdefine.com/
When Jane gives birth to a stillborn, deformed baby. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/HighOctaneNightmareFuel/Threads
Film Drama suite 101- The last shot of the film is Jane giving birth to a stillborn, deformed baby, freezing just as she opens her mouth to scream. Threads-BBC Film Review
A child born to a survivor of the nuclear bomb later giving birth herself to a hideously deformed stillborn baby. http://www.geeksaresexy.net/2010/04/05/five-of-the-best-nuclear-apocalypse-movies/
The stillborn, deformed baby at the end was the kicker for me.
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1809218
So I'm not the only one as you put it, not by a long shot, furthermore I really can't see how you are defending the caption or ending, it is intentionally misleading as to the condition of the baby. Why else would they have put the caption in? and why else would so many people write(as above) that the baby is deformed?
Lastly, I don't buy the explanation of the use of the caption as simply a dramatic tool of suspense that you are suggesting.
The film pretains to being an authenic docu-drama.
Barry Hines, best known for Kes, fashioned his script on evidence supplied by bodies as varied as the British Medical Association and the Home Office, with literally dozens of experts from varying fields - including Carl Sagan - consulted to guarantee authenticity. http://www.dangerousminds.net/comments/classic_british_nuclear_attack_drama_threads
Boundarylayer ( talk) 05:17, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
An article on a film does not have to soley deal with what is in the script. For example, here is a film, of which there are many, that does not even pertain to being a docu-drama
Saving Private Ryan, and it's article discusses many inaccuracies and other such things that appear nowhere in the script. So clearly your personal view on what should and should not be included in wikipedia articles is woefully out of line with current practice.
So much for we simply cannot include detail of that which is not there then. Boundarylayer ( talk) 13:50, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Sure, no problem, you want more reliable references. Here's more reputable sources, including a BBC writer.
Threads memorable final scene is of Ruth's daughter giving birth to a mutated, deformed baby; as the young mother starts to scream, the programme ends.
Author Will Hadcroft, author of, 'The Feeling's Unmutual,' and the, 'Anne Droyd' series.
http://h2g2.com/dna/h2g2/brunel/A653311
We are treated to a graphically disturbing portrayal of the medieval conditions that might prevail after such a conflict, including starvation, nuclear winter, disease, psychological trauma, illiteracy and both mental and physical mutation.
And when Ruth dies, her teenage daughter, whose generation can barely form sentences, has a baby deformed by radiation.
The Author Nick Wilson wrote the book - A More Human Channel: Peacebuiding on the frontline and the human rights manual First Steps, used in over 30 languages.
http://vkinoshke.ru/documentals/6325-Smotret_nbsp_Niti_Threads.html
The movie ends with Ruth's daughter giving birth to a stillborn (and presumably deformed) baby, and the film freezes just as she is about to scream in horror.
Vkinoshke.ru is akin to a Russian IMDB.
The top rated customer review of the movie Threads, voted by 70 people as helpful contains the line- ...And when Ruth delivers her daughter, it's deformed and stillborn. That's the final coda...the future of humanity. There isn't one.
Author David H. Lippman.
So as you should now see, both of your positions are untenable, give up the farce already. The previous comparison with Saving Private Ryan stands.
Boundarylayer ( talk) 08:08, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
I understand what you are trying to say in your analogy about Survivor, but it is not quite applicable, the analogy would be more accurate in this case if it was a common belief and vast numbers of people also have reiterated the same exact remember the bit when... as you. However in reality the end of the film and Jane's baby's condition is intentionally ambiguous. So again your analogy doesn't quite fit.
All of the references below state the baby is deformed-
Vast numbers of people assume that the baby is deformed-
The top rated customer review of the movie Threads, voted by 70 people as helpful contains the line- '...And when Ruth delivers her daughter, it's deformed and stillborn.'
At the very least, an addition to the article to the effect that - contrary to many sources stating to the contrary, the script does not indicate the baby is deformed.
It also strikes me, according to the scriptyou provided, Jane is said to be Horrified and disgusted at the sight of her dead baby. But why exactly would she, or any mother, be disgusted at the sight of a still born baby, let alone her own baby? 139. Interior. Hospital. Night.
The baby is given to JANE, who stares down at the bundle in her arms. Her face turns to horror and disgust. She pushes the baby away from her and open her mouth to scream. Freeze frame. Roll end credits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boundarylayer ( talk • contribs) 03:49, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
I'll think you'll find both references are more than acceptable under Wikipedia guidelines.
Threads memorable final scene is of Ruth's daughter giving birth to a mutated, deformed baby; as the young mother starts to scream, the programme ends.
Author Will Hadcroft, author of, 'The Feeling's Unmutual,' and the, 'Anne Droyd' series.
&
And when Ruth dies, her teenage daughter, whose generation can barely form sentences, has a baby deformed by radiation.
The Author Nick Wilson wrote the book - A More Human Channel: Peacebuiding on the frontline and the human rights manual First Steps, used in over 30 languages.
Is there any wonder Saving Private Ryan (and the important Saving Private Ryan#Protraying History) is regarded as a stellar wikipedia article, listed as one of the Theatre, film and drama good articles under the good article criteria, whereas this Threads article is rated so poorly?
Your insistence that there must not be any discussion of how likewise Threads protrays Nuclear War is evidence of your skewed bias.
You'll find that reference 22 of the above SPR article does not even mention Saving Private Ryan once, yet is included in the article and is part of what makes the article so good. Quotation - Inevitably, some artistic license was taken by the filmmakers for the sake of drama. One of the most notable is the depiction of the 2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich, as the adversary during the fictional Battle of Ramelle. The 2nd SS was not engaged in Normandy until July, and then at Caen against the British and Canadians, one hundred miles east. http://web.archive.org/web/20101208095306/http://dasreich.ca/normandy.html Neither does reference 23 of SPR mention the film. http://www.6juin1944.com/assaut/aeropus/en_index.php
As has been mentioned by other editors of this page, you appear to have a personal vendetta against anyone who attempts to add new material.
Regardless of your personal feelings, attempting to lie about what is acceptable for wikipedia does your case nothing but harm. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boundarylayer ( talk • contribs) 09:57, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
I think you misunderstand my intentions, as I've said already: At the very least, an addition to the article to the effect that - contrary to many sources stating to the contrary[including refs here], the script does not indicate the baby is deformed[incl script ref here].
As you acknowledge it is a common 'mis-remembering', is it not the function of an encyclopaedia to set the record straight? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boundarylayer ( talk • contribs) 22:31, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
I've taken the liberty of editing the plot again so that it includes a reference to Jane's daughter's deformities, which are visible in the film, and also her stillbirth. I'm not interested in Wikipedia etiquette so please don't correct me Hayek79 ( talk) 11:04, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
Her refers to Jane, re-read Hayek79 ( talk) 18:04, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
I have removed the following "The scattered remnants of civil or military authority are gone, as the meagre resources of food and fuel they once controlled are fully depleted, with no sources of renewal"' from the plot section, I do not feel this can be justified given the appearance of soldiers even in the final 10 minutes of the film, one of whom shoots a boy for stealing bread. After this comment there is also reference to increasing mechanisation (picture of a traction engine) and manual coal mining, which must be an implicit suggestion of a remaining authority or order. Before Jane gives birth in fact she walks through a room in which three people (presumably criminals) have been hung, I therefore disagree that in the film even the "scattered remains" of authority have vanished, when it is obvious that a certain authority does exist, centralised or otherwise. Hayek79 ( talk) 11:24, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
I see this hoary load of nonsense has raised its head again, so I will once more refer to the actual script of the play:
There is no suggestion whatsoever that the baby is "deformed," nor is any such "deformity" seen on screen. A pile of bloody rags and a clear reference to "silence" indicates stillbirth, not "deformity." All the mistaken recollections or misassumptions in however many blogs or opinion pieces can be found does not change that. Nick Cooper ( talk) 13:22, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
It doesn't matter how many times you've watched it, or when you first saw it. It is possible to describe something that is implied; did it mention in the script that the infant was stillborn? Of course it didn't, which means I ought to remove that too. Why would she scream in "horror and disgust"? Why would it have horrified her? Why would a dead baby have disgusted her? A stillborn infant wouldn't have merited that response, neither would a scream of that nature. Why didn't the midwife react, perhaps because she'd delivered babies in that condition before, she wasn't mentally disabled perhaps?
Is it not possible that rather you have made the error? Merely because something is not made explicit reference to in a script, that isn't to say that the writer did not intend for it to be interpreted as such. It is the same here with respect of both deformity AND stillbirth, for both of which there is evidence on screen and in the script. There have been several attempts to rectify the plot on this page before, it is not your private page to outline your own private views and as I have demonstrated, as have several others, the overwhelming consensus is that the baby is deformed, and for that reason the plot on this Wikipedia page will read as such. If you choose to change this again without providing evidence of anyone other than yourself interpreting the film as not involving what is one of the pre-established results of foetal exposure to radiation, I will report YOU for vandalism; until at least the administrator gets back to me. End of. Hayek79 ( talk) 17:48, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
And also for your information Wikipedia recognises synopsis and reviews from reputable websites and publications as sources; if you remove these it will be treated as vandalism. Edit: Equally given that similar sources have been provided as citation for other parts of this article, it would be inconsistent to dismiss those that I have provided. Hayek79 ( talk) 18:07, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
I'm not interested in your personal anecdotes as evidence, and quite frankly I find it insulting that you'd dismiss my citation as "mistaken" (of course you are above being mistaken, whereas everyone else must be) if that's all you can provide (aside the Guardian article, which certainly isn't conclusive by itself) Hayek79 ( talk) 19:31, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
No, anecdotal evidence confirms nothing. The Guardian review explicitly addresses the still born baby, which is assumed, much like the deformity which is assumed in the three reviews I cited, with neither being referenced in the script, but with both having been implied by sounds (or in the instance of stillbirth lack of one). Your accusation that those who came to the conclusion (with the screaming, and the fact that it has long been established that, with exposure to radiation, foetuses can suffer abnormalities such as dipygus) suffer from "hazy memories", is no less applicable to your own interpretation of the film. If your concern is that it is not present on screen (or the script), I am happy to remove both claims, since, as the interpretation of third parties is, as you claim, not permissible, neither the deformity nor the stillbirth can be substantiated. Hayek79 ( talk) 12:51, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
I've taken several screen shots of the baby on my iPad, which do in fact show that it is deformed, if I can be told how I might unload them here without violating any intellectual property laws I will. Hayek79 ( talk) 13:21, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
You still haven't responded to that point; perhaps you lack a response? Does this mean that I am correct by default? "show a fake blood-smeared dummy baby" one that is visibly deformed, the "lumps" are not consistent with the physiology of a healthy human child. "but that doesn't stop the rest of the dummy from being normal" the reverse is also applicable, it doesn't prove that the baby isn't deformed, rather the evidence I have provided proves quite the opposite; you're now in denial. We have established that the image isn't of the best quality, but that doesn't make it useless as evidence, in fact you're being inconsistent by claiming it is too blurry for you to make anything out, whilst simultaneously contesting that the bizarre lumps are in fact legs. You're wrong, please give it up.
"this goes without saying that there is no contemporary evidence of the intention", you're grasping at straws now, I'm sure I can find some. I'm also going to attempt to contact Mick Jackson. Would the harrowing effect of the film be as great if the child were merely dead? Also, your assertions about "self-perpetuating urban myths" is nonsense, it's entirely conjectural, unsubstantiated, and cannot be used as evidence. 31.55.37.27 ( talk) 12:57, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
Listen to the newscast when Ruth reveals she's pregnant, and when the news presenter mentions Soviet Foreign Minister Gromyko: He [the Soviet foreign minister] warned the United States of the dangers of what he called "an easy return to the reign of the Shah".
Mariomassone ( talk) 08:54, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
People continue to make an awful lot of presumptions when documenting the plot of the movie. Stillborn/deformed babies, Ruth's parent's being killed by looters, etc. The movie never states any of this stuff, but it keeps appearing in the plot section.
Where is the information referenced that the Tinsley Viaduct is the target of the Sheffield blast? Where is stated that it is a one-megaton blast? The Tinsley Viaduct is far off the centre of Sheffield, rather halfway between Sheffield and Rotherham. Wouldn't this be a rather ineffective target for an attack on Sheffield?-- SiriusB ( talk) 09:22, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
So we're back to the stillborn baby thing again.
Someone listed the following references:
Mangan, Michael, ed. (1990). Threads and Other Sheffield Plays. Critical Stages 3. Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press. p. 235. ISBN 978-1-850-75140-3. ISSN 0953-0533.
The Guardian: "Most Grim of Reapers", 24 September 1984, page 12.
The Guardian is an opinion piece and is thus disregarded.
Threads and other Sheffield Plays I don't know. I can't find the reference. There is only one "stillborn" mentioned, and it isn't Jane's. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.168.160.50 ( talk) 05:58, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I think Threads should have a link direct to Threads (television show), and a link to Thread, rather than redirecting to the latter - and no mention of the programme at all, until I put one in, which is strange as it would appear there used to be something related to the programme here. Plus lots of links to this page. Not entirely sure why the main article isn't here - maybe there's something on the talk page for it? sheridan 23:06, 2005 Jun 4 (UTC)
Large sections of this page are plagiarised from here [1] - i will either attempt a cleaup or leave a cleanup tag myself Tyhopho 21:20, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
The contributor of that material has been consulted, and he maintains that the material is not under copyright, and/or that no rights have been reserved, and that this justifies his use. This is incorrect on several grounds:
1. The source site has been under copyright from the time it was saved to disk. As its contents and its domain name show (btinternet.com is British Telecom), it was created in the United Kingdom, where copyright inheres in a work from the time it is recorded. (The same is true in the U.S., incidentally.)
2. The Berne Convention requires that copyright protection be extended automatically, without requirement of notice or registration. The U.K. has been party to the Berne Convention since 1887. (And yes, Wikipedia does have to honor British copyrights, since it is legally located in Florida, and the U.S. acceded to the Berne Convention in 1989. Thanks for asking.)
3. Initially, the author is the sole holder, not only of the rights to copy, to distribute copies, to display, and to create derivative works, but also of the right to sell or assign these rights. Unless he exercises this latter right, the other rights never pertain to anyone else—they are 'reserved' by default.
4. User:Jim62sch concedes that an attribution to the source is necessary, but seems to believe that it is also sufficient. Citation resolves plagiarism, which is a problem of intellectual honesty, but under the circumstances it has no bearing on copyright infringement, which is a problem of law. Most particularly, a citation would not make this a fair use of text.
5. It is worth noting that the front page of the source site does contain a copyright notice, although it does not say whether this notice concerns merely that page, or the whole site. (The whole site is protected anyway, as previously discussed.) From the fact that the author did put this notice on his front page, I infer that he could well have put a waiver or license of rights on the Threads page, had he wished to. Because he did not do so, I infer that he meant it to have just the protected status that it does have. Your conclusions may differ.
Enough theory. On a practical level, I've emailed the author a request for permission, with an explanation of the GFDL and a promise to remove the offending material if he dislikes it. I told him I'd assume permission refused if I didn't hear back in two weeks. So if you don't hear from me on or before
April 26, feel free to
nuke
nuke the offending edits.
eritain
02:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Am I the only one that feels that this article over-describes the film? You need not watch it; just read the Wikipedia article. Look at the plot sections in Casablanca, Gone With The Wind and The Deer Hunter (to name three I pseudo-randomly chose). Furthermore, a lot of the parts have been copied verbatim from the film's narrator. Stonefield 09:04, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
There was no mention of the extremely scarce 1987 VHS release so I have added this. I would also cast doubt on the claim that the 2000 DVD release "soon went out of production" or "quickly became a collector's item" - I picked up a heavily discounted copy in 2003 and I noticed at the time it was available from most of the major online retailers at a comparably low price. I have modified accordingly. DickTurnip 19:23, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
An offhand comment in the introduction calls "The Day After" "theoretically inaccurate". To what does this comment refer? (Without supporting references, this is probably not NPOV.)
I think there should be a section in this article comparing the two films, as well as one in the
The Day After article.
–
Gravinos (
To each their own* *as long as they leave me alone.)
11:28, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm interested. There are many similarities but they may be shared via influence of other disaster movies, especially the crowd scenes. Overall, I'd say The Day After epitomizes the American attitude and Threads the British. Threads simply benefits from its brilliant writing, direction, everything . . . the ultimate disaster movie with everything on top. Plus an internal level of symbolism that The Day After doesn't really aspire to. The Day After does have superior effects of the actual explosions, the cinematic equivalent of gut-punch after gut-punch. But Threads just connects deeper with the full scale of the horror/pathos/insanity. The woman spontaneously urinating. The cat. The rape. The dog barking in panic to her childbirth. Her daughter's mutant foil. Threads is the one fictional movie I've seen which so terrified me I had no choice but to watch it again, and again, and again (without sound), and years later again to . . . anesthetize myself. Innoculate myself from the fear.
I'm from Oregon by the way. I REMEMBER The Day After (I was 7 in '84 with family and neighbors present) but Threads wove itself deep inside me. Writer and Director deserved the Nobel Peace Prize for this. Magmagoblin ( talk) 12:58, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't call if it is plagarism or not - the writing doesn't read well.
If we decide that a more detailed plot outline is appropriate, we can use this as a source, but it needs (a) substantial reworking and (b) a citation in order to make it (a) not plagiarism and (b) not sucky. I don't think we need this much detail in any case. So, with apologies to those who worked on it, copyedited it, improved the style, and wikified it, here's the big honking copyvio that cannot remain any longer. eritain 01:34, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
{{spoiler}}
"In an urban society everything connects, each person's needs are fed by the skills of many others. Our lives are woven together in a fabric, but the connections that make society strong also make it vulnerable".
Introduced by these words, Threads is set in the depressed industrial city of Sheffield, England, and centres on two families: the Kemps and the Becketts. It is Saturday, March 5 [1]. Ruth Beckett (Karen Meagher) and Jimmy Kemp (Reese Dinsdale) are courting, and in the first scene of the film, they are in Jimmy's parked car overlooking Sheffield. Captions note that the city is 17 miles away from RAF Finningley, a base for both USAF F-4 Phantoms and an RAF communication center, thus making it high priority military target.
The political background is a US backed coup in Iran, the subsequent invasion of northern Iran by the USSR to take over oil fields in the south and west, and tactical moves by the Warsaw Pact and the North Atlantic Treaty organization (NATO) in East Germany and West Germany.
The film jumps ahead to May 11, and the Becketts are awaiting a visit from the Kemps, since Ruth is pregnant with Jimmy's child, and they are planning to get married. Meanwhile, the BBC reports that the American submarine Los Angeles has been attacked and destroyed in the Persian Gulf, and the United States has announced that it plans to send a rapid deployment force into western Iran in order to block any possible Soviet move towards the oil fields.
In a pub, Jimmy and his friend Bob are discussing the international situation over a pint, when it is announced on the TV that the United States has accused the Soviets of moving nuclear warheads into their new base in Iran. Bob's concluding comment is "... I'll tell you one thing; if the bomb does drop I want to be pissed out of my mind and straight underneath it when it happens...."
The United Kingdom has emergency plans for war, which it begins putting into effect. Should the central government fail, power can be transferred to a network of local officials. In an urban area like Sheffield, there is already a designated wartime controller -- the city's peacetime chief executive. If and when this transfer happens depends on the crisis itself.
On Saturday, May 21, the Ministry of Defence begins to move troops into mainland Europe on the border with East Germany. British Airways and all cross-channel shipping and ferries are commandeered for this purpose. Peace rallies are held throughout the country in an attempt to defuse the situation. The United States demands a joint withdrawal from Iran by noon on Sunday, May 22. The Soviets refuse.
Overnight reports indicate build-ups of Soviet forces along the Iranian border and in East Germany. At 1PM local time on Sunday, one hour after the US ultimatum expires, American B52-Gs strike the Soviet base in Iran with conventional weapons. The Soviets defend the base with a single nuclear air defence missile, resulting in the loss of many B52s. At 2PM, the United States retaliates with a tactical nuclear weapon, destroying the Soviet base, and the exchange stops.
In Britain, looting and lawlessness break out. On May 24, there are early reports of an outbreak of fighting between the United States and Soviets in Iran and the Persian Gulf. Parliament passes an Emergency Powers Act. Many begin to leave large population centers for the relative safety of the West Country and Welsh countryside. This movement is against government advice. Official Essential Service routes are set up to enable vital movements to continue (such as soldiers, tanks, ammunition, food, fuel and medical supplies), hence motorways are closed to all but military traffic . Known and potential subversives are arrested. [[:Image:Protectandsurvivecover.jpg|thumb| Protect and Survive|right]]
The American carrier Kitty Hawk is sunk in the Persian Gulf. America responds with an air and naval blockade of Cuba. Many people follow government advice to build improvised fallout shelters. Protect and Survive booklets are distributed, which include advice that a fall-out room should be set up with provisions for the family for 14 days stored within it. A 'lean-to' should be built out of boards, doors, etc., and rested against an inner wall. The Kemps build such a structure, the Becketts decide to use their cellar. A radio news broadcast notes "There has been a run on tinned food, sugar and other storable items that is causing shortages in some areas. A spokesman for the main supermarket chains says that fuel shortages are hindering re-supply and urged the public to calm down".
On May 25, Sheffield officials enter the bunker (more accurately, the basement/cellar used to store documents) under the Town Hall. Many officers have had no training; some discovered their emergency role only in the last few days, and almost all are unsure of their exact duties.
Ruth is with her parents, and has decided not to go into work because she is not feeling well; whether this is due to morning sickness or anxiety over the crisis it is not made clear in this scene. When her mother attempts telephoning Ruth's place of employment to tell them that she isn't coming in for work, her mother discovers that the telephone has been disconnected. The telephone preference system has been activated, allowing all but ten percent to be cut off at will, in order to allow hospitals, utilities, military bases and the like to still have a phone line. It also prevents spies listening in.
The UK Warning and Monitoring Organisation is responsible for issuing the " four-minute warning". The warning originates at RAF High Wycombe near London, and is relayed to over 250 control points in major police stations. Should war arrive, the police will activate the 7,000 automated warning sirens in the UK. These are backed up by 11,000 other warning points in rural areas, located in coastguard stations, hospitals, village shops and even pubs, these warning points sound the alarm by hand-siren. Small three person bunkers scattered all over the UK are staffed to sound the alarm and monitor blast and fall-out levels.
It is now 8:00 AM May 26. In the bunker under Sheffield town hall, a WB400 warning receiver [2] is making a 'ticking' sound [3], a nuclear ' all clear'. The Kemps are removing inside doors to use for their shelter, while the radio plays an information broadcast. By this time, public information films are being broadcast almost constantly.
At 8:30 AM, (3:30am in Washington D.C.), it is noted that over the last few days neither the President nor his staff will have had more than a few hours rest; this is when they may be asleep, and thus this is when Western response will be slowest. At 8:30 AM, the 'ticking' sound of the warning receiver is replaced by an alarm sound and the announcement "ATTACK WARNING RED", indicating an attack in progress. The police sound the Air Raid sirens, causing Jimmy and Bob to look for cover. At 8:35 AM single warhead is detonated high over the North Sea; the Electromagnetic Pulse knocks out power and communication systems. At 8:37 AM, the first salvos hit NATO military targets, including RAF Finningley. The Finningley blast breaks windows, and the nuclear flash blinds many in Sheffield who were caught outside. Ruth and her parents have taken shelter in their basement with their invalid grandmother (meanwhile, the family cat is killed), while the Kemps have attempted to build a makeshift shelter using doors and furniture. This first salvo totals 80 megatons. Seeing the mushroom cloud rising from RAF Finningley, Jimmy leaves Bob, and runs off to find Ruth. This is the last we see of him. The Kemps' son Michael panics, and runs outside.
The nuclear exchange escalates to include "Economic and industrial targets", with more strategic weapons being used. One of these large bombs is detonated over Sheffield, a one-megaton airburst warhead. Buildings explode and collapse (including the town hall over the bunker, trapping the officials inside) and milk bottles melt in the heat. The Kemps' young son Michael is either killed by the heat's blast or by a hail of falling bricks, or both, and Mrs. Kemp is blinded and maimed when she tries to save him instead of taking shelter in the inner refuge.
Initial casualties are between 2.5 and 9 million. An hour and 25 minutes after the attack (10:00AM) the first fall-out dust settles on Sheffield from a detonation in Crewe. About two thirds of the houses in the UK are in fire zones. Almost all windows are broken and most roofs are open to the skies. Fire fighting on any large scale is unlikely. Food distribution also unlikely for at least 3-4 weeks. In total, out of a 3,000 megaton exchange between East and West, an estimated 210 megatons fall on the UK -- that is the equivalent of 3.5 tonnes of high explosive for every person in the country.
The first duty of the Sheffield officials is maintaining communication with other control centres and assessing the damage. A large map on the wall is marked with concentric circles around the detonations. These "release bands" determine the length of time people will have to stay in their shelters.
The Kemps emerge from their shelter to a scene of total devastation. Their survival chances are minimal as the damage to their house has exposed them to fallout. They find Michael's body under rubble in the garden. Mrs. Kemp dies shortly thereafter from radiation and her injuries. The Becketts, living in a cellar outside the fire zone, still suffer radiation sickness but survive the initial effects of the attack. Ruth's grandmother dies in her sleep. While her parents are removing the body, Ruth decides to leave the basement. Shortly afterwards the house is raided by looters who kill her parents.
Finding medical help is almost impossible - without power, water or drug supplies there is almost no way any doctor could render anything more than basic help. Also, given the devastation of the attack, the effects of the one bomb that hit Sheffield would be enough to overwhelm all the resources of the UK's National Health Service.
The officials in the basement are as shocked by the events as anyone else. The Chief Executive and the Medical Officer are looking at the radiation map on the wall "Everybody here will be dead already... Around here 50% will still be alive, but they are as good as dead already, they have probably received a lethal dose".
The town hall bunker has a generator and food supplies for 2 weeks, but the blast brought down all four floors of the building, sealing the officials in. Getting lifting equipment to them is difficult. After an attempt is made to mount rescue efforts above, they all die of suffocation.
In the atmosphere, huge clouds of dust block out the sun, and over large parts of the northern hemisphere it starts to get dark and cold. In the center of large land masses like America or Russia the temperature drop may be as much as 25 degrees Celsius. Even in Britain, the temperature could fall to freezing or below for long periods.
On June 5th, 10 days after the attack, Ruth walks devastated streets passing charred bodies and a woman holding a dead baby. At Jimmy's house, she finds Mrs Kemp dead, and takes one of Jimmy's books as a keepsake. The killers of Ruth's parents are arrested and executed by firing squad. Ruth returns home to find that her parents are no longer there. A public information broadcast states that "... All able-bodied citizens, men, women and children should report for reconstruction duties commencing 08:00 tomorrow morning...."
A group of survivors (Jimmy's father amongst them) tries to break into a food storage depot; soldiers defend the depot with tear gas. Detention camps are set up to cope with the growing numbers of looters.
By 4 to 6 weeks after the attack, deaths from fallout are reaching their peak, disposal of bodies is difficult, digging pits by hand is not practical, and fuel is too valuable to be used for cremations. There are now between 10 and 20 million unburied bodies in Britain, which in turn give rise to epidemics such as cholera, dysentery and typhoid.
By now most who can have left cities and towns in search of food. In the grim economics of the aftermath is a harsh reality: a survivor who can work gets more food than one who can't, and the more who die, the more food left for the rest. Along with many others, Ruth is relocated to Buxton, which suffered fewer effects of the attack. Ruth, along with three others, is allocated temporary accommodation in a private home, over the objections of the homeowner, who kicks them out of this accommodation very soon afterwards.
Food is distributed after 4 weeks. The delay is partly organisational and partly deliberate, as there is a desire not to waste food on people who are going to die anyway. Even with supplies rationed to 1,000 calories per day for those who can work (and 500 calories for the rest), stocks do not last long and it is up to the remaining population to harvest what little crops have survived.
Ruth runs into Jimmy's friend Bob, and they band together and find a dead sheep. After some deliberation, they choose to eat it then use its coat to keep warm. Four months after the attack Ruth, alone, gives birth to a surprisingly healthy child and gathers with some survivors around a fire on Christmas Day. Aside from a caption that gives the date, the only thing to suggest it being Christmas is a shot that is a grim parody of a nativity tableaux; the day passes without celebration.
The sky is clearing and sunlight (heavy with ultraviolet radiation) is returning. However, with fuel stocks running low, this could be the last harvest done with tractors and combine harvesters. Lack of fertilizers and the like make the growing of crops very hard.
The first few winters are so harsh that most of the young and old die as their protective layers of flesh are thinner. The pace of the film quickens -- we see Ruth and her young daughter (whose name, Jane, is only revealed in the closing credits) working in the fields.
The population falls to about 5 million (the caption states that "population may fall to mediaeval levels, between 4 and 11 million people") within 8 to 10 years of the attack. The country is returning to population levels and standards of living similar to those of medieval times. A breakdown of language is evident among those born after the attack, making learning difficult.
Ten years after the attack, Ruth is in the final stages of cancer and looks far older than her years; she dies peacefully. By this time, basic electricity is in use again and we see mining and the use of steam engines. Ruth's people have even rigged up a television and VCR, which they use to show their children the few surviving recordings of pre-war programmes. The bitter irony being that the programme being shown is an episode of Words and Pictures, with a story about a family of skeletons. Jane and the other girls in the community are learning how to repair clothes.
Jane becomes pregnant as a result of being raped. As her contractions begin, she stumbles through the devastated landscape until she finds a hostel with electricity. Her baby is assumed disfigured, and possibly stillborn, a result of genetic mutation.
As Jane is about to scream at the sight of her baby, the movie ends.
{{endspoiler}}
References
The See Also section of this article was becoming a list of other works only tengentially related to this one. It was moved to List of nuclear holocaust fiction along similar, redundant, frequently overlapping lists from Jericho (TV series) and The Day After. See Talk:List of nuclear holocaust fiction. MrZaius talk 05:15, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Image:Threadsmoviecover.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 02:20, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
The section describing the 1985 repeat of Threads is almost entirely conjecture with nothing to substantiate it; having watched it at the time I know for a certainty that nothing of the man having his leg amputated was edited or omitted. There was no need for any of Threads to be edited for the After The Bomb season which is what it was part of -- it was shown at 21:25, only 5 minutes earlier that it's original showing on the 13rd September 1984 at 21:30. It's interesting to note that in The Times television listings it reports Threads on 23 Sept 1984 starting at 21:30 and finishing at 23:25 and on 1 Aug 1985 starting at 21:25 and ending at 23:20 indicating both broadcasts being of 1 hour 55 minutes. As their are no commercials on the BBC it is unlikely they would be of uneven duration. Any trims to the content would have removed at least 1 or perhaps 2 minutes from the running length of the film, particularly cuts as long as those detailed in this article.
There is a heavily sanitised version of Threads this may be in reference to that was broadcast on satellite (not BBC4) that has been bootlegged around the Internet that has many of the cuts referenced above. It was broadcast at or around 2003 but I am fairly sure it was not an edit made by the BBC. Clearly this article needs extensive revision. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gitfinger ( talk • contribs) 07:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
I have to agree that the plot section is much too dense and to a large degree fairly irrelevant. For the purposes of an encyclopedia this section needs extensive revision to both shorten it and to actually add more important details to the basis and origins of the plot. Simply writing a synopsis of the entire film neither does the film justice or has much learning value to it (various synopsis of the film are already widely available on the web). As time permits I propose completely rewriting this section. Gitfinger ( talk) 13:35, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Though I haven't the time to rewrite this as extensively as I would like (i.e. to discuss the play rather than simply reiterate the plot) I've tried to remove the worst of the errors and inaccuracies, removed much of the unverified and unverifiable presumptions in the section. If it isn't explicit in the film or the published play then I've removed it as these are really the only two primary sources for Threads. Statements like " Ruth is put to work in the farming effort, where workers are provided barely enough nutrition to survive" have been removed because from the film we don't know any of that is true; we don't know what the workers were given in exchange for their labour so its removed. We also don't know such things as "Their "education" seems to consist of watching a damaged videotape of the BBC children's programme" because we don't know from the film what context the children were watching the video in. Similarly I've tried to remove some of the irrelevancy: "it is not clear whether the damage to the tape is due to the effects of the war or simple over-use" which adds nothing to the understanding of the plot or the film as a whole. These are examples of what I've tried to achieve, the page's history will reveal all my revisions. Gitfinger ( talk) 14:18, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
There is still VASTLY too much information about the plot in this article. It's totally unnecessary.-- 79.65.187.70 ( talk) 18:05, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
There are two scenes in the movie that do not appear to fit into the plot, not advancing the storyline in any way that I can tell. Perhaps someone with access to the script (it's not online as far as I can tell) might have an idea of why the writers added these seemingly incongruous scenes. The first scene is when Jimmy makes out with a girl from the pub despite being engaged to Ruth. Is it meant to establish that Jimmy is an ordinary human being with ordinary human frailties? I thought that already had been established. Or is it meant to show that Jimmy's really not such a nice guy after all, so we don't feel much sadness when he (presumably) dies? Again, that doesn't make much sense, as the movie's full of decent people dying. The second scene that doesn't "fit" is when Ruth meets up with Jimmy's friend Bob. I was expecting them to stay together afterward, but Bob soon wanders off elsewhere. This doesn't make any sense, it would be far more logical for them to face the future together - being alone and pregnant must not be an appealing proposition for Ruth, and for his part Bob would certainly be expected to feel some sense of responsibility toward Ruth. The part about the dead sheep would have worked just as well if it involved Ruth and a random stranger. Again, I was hopeful that the script might shed some light on this scene. User: PROSA —Preceding undated comment added 02:41, 1 June 2011 (UTC).
I have removed completely "The VHS/DVD releases have a modified soundtrack (compared with the broadcast version) because of rights issues." because it is completely unverified. There are essentially only two pieces of music in Threads, at the beginning when Ruth and Jimmy are in the car and " Johnny B. Goode" is playing, a piece of classical music Jimmy's sister listens to as she does her homework and a coda of " Johnny B. Goode" that is heard whilst Ruth's daughter, Jane, stumbles through the rubble of a city ( Sheffield? Buxton?) before giving birth. Unless the issue of rights issues can be verified there is no point in leaving conjecture in the article. It makes sense to reinstate if proper references can be provided, until then it shouldn't appear. Gitfinger ( talk) 11:18, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
This is really getting a bit silly. The fact that the stated date of the attack - Thursday 26 May - applies to 1983 or 1988 is a self-evident fact, and is no less valid a detail regarding the plot of the play than much of what is already in the summary. We do not have to cite proof of something that is as plainly obvious as "grass is green". Nick Cooper ( talk) 07:28, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
There doesn't seem to be much mention of the impact of the film following broadcast. The Day After features a substantial section (with the very important impact it had - even on World Leaders). I know from a personal point of view at 14 years old I was terrified and haunted by it - and so was everyone I knew who saw it - including teachers at school, adults and many discussions on TV. Does anyone know where to find this info, or does anyone have it already? For the type of film it was and particularly the era in which it was shown, the impact is especially important I think.-- Tuzapicabit ( talk) 20:14, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Vooz, before you make any more changes, please note the following:
Nick Cooper ( talk) 07:48, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Nick Cooper: I removed those portions. However, I stand by my other changes:
My rewrite is based upon an extensive, frame-by-frame review of Threads. I would be happy to post screencaps to support each of my claims. I don't mind if the Britishisms are put back in (even though I find the whole controversy to be both priggish and stupid), but kindly do not revert my other changes unless you have some evidence from the film to support the reversion.
-- Vooz ( talk) 16:38, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Nick Cooper: You know something, Nick? It's douchebags like you that make people hate Wikipedia.
That being said, I quit. You win. Revel in your victory. Oh, and kindly do me the "favour" of shoving this article -- and your "television play" -- up your Pommie "arse".
-- Vooz ( talk) 23:46, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Nick Cooper: File:Faceityoureahomo.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vooz ( talk • contribs) 18:45, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
Nick Cooper: LOL. The truth hurts. Vooz ( talk) 20:35, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
I've removed the addition of this information, because it asserts a direct connection between the exercise and the TV production without any proof. It is known that Hines carried out extensive research into the subject, and was revising the script even as new material became available during the filming process. The Radio Times for the week of the first broadcast, for example, mentions a World Health Organisation report that came out at the same time as the Curbar Edge scenes were being filmed in February 1983. Hines no doubt did make use of Operation Squareleg, but I can't find a direct contemporary or later reference to it, so to include it in the manner it was here is giving it undue prominence. Nick Cooper ( talk) 10:09, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Has Anyone come to any further conclusion about the inclusion of Square Leg in the film? I am writing an extensive paper on the topic and have found correlations, but have found no direct evidence. ---Incidentally. It is EXERCISE Square Leg, not Operation. It was one of three exercises in Operation Crusader 80: Jogtrot, Spearpoint, and Square Leg.
Djkinney (
talk)
20:33, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
External links point to YouTube and Google Video copies of Threads. Are these allowed under copyright, or should we remove them? Jaimeastorga2000 ( talk) 18:06, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
I see that this has crept back into the plot summary again, despite the reality having been properly cited in the past. The published script states verbatim (page 234):
That's it. No "rape," no "overpowering," and clearly no intention by the writer that it should be anything other than mutual. Nick Cooper ( talk) 22:23, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
Unhappily, there is no account of criticism of this programme on this article. I've seen Threads, and the whole thing reads like a plea for unilateral disarmament by the West on behalf of the BBC.
I am sure that, at the time, there would have been more contemporary and pertinent criticism, quite possibly led by Lady Olga Maitland and Women and Families for Defence, which is worth noting here. At the moment all I can find on Wikipedia is praise of the programme. Uncantabrigian ( talk) 19:26, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
PROSA has twice attempted to add speculative detail to the plot section, including:
Speculation. A video recorder is seen in use. There is no indication if this is running off a generator, stored batteries, or a wider electricity grid, "limited" or otherwise.
Apart from the inappropriate foreign dialect spelling, they're actually picking threads from old garments, which isn't the same as "repairing" them, at all. There is nothing to suggest they are "training," as opposed to doing the work "for real."
It is actually an extract from the BBC Schools TV programme Words and Pictures, which had - and continues to have - a much wider scope than merely teaching the alphabet. In summary, all of PROSA's additions are speculation, and mostly wrong, at that. Nick Cooper ( talk) 01:03, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
Hey Nicky Boy, I just reversed *your* reversal of my edits. Two can play at this game, and this being Wikipedia you're no better than me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PROSA ( talk • contribs) 20:55, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
Erik, the February 2007 revision actually looks pretty good, I would say it summarizes the movie better than the current one. It contains one error, however, as it says that Ruth dies 13 years after the war, when it's actually 10 years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PROSA ( talk • contribs) 18:46, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
Reference has been made to the use of electricity again, the video player was connected to the mains by a plug on which the camera settled for a number of seconds. I don't feel anyone needs to justify it's inclusion in the plot. Hayek79 ( talk) 11:10, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
Is she the young blonde woman seen among the people imprisoned in the tennis club later in the movie? -- PROSA ( talk) 03:40, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
After the three looters are caught leaving the Beckett house, a soldier reports to his commander that there are two bodies in the cellar. However, I can't quite make out whether he says that they have been dead for a while or that they have not been dead for a while. Obviously, if they've been dead for a while the looters were not responsible for their deaths, and the main article is incorrect. What does the script say? -- PROSA ( talk) 04:50, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Okay, these are minor mistakes, certainly not on the level of, say, the self-repairing windshield on Sonny's car in The Godfather's infamous toll booth scene, but given that Threads has an otherwise very well-crafted screenplay they do stick out a bit:
1. Shortly after the attacks, one of the emergency planning team in the City Hall basement reports that one of the local police departments made it to a road works depot, unfortunately the heavy equipment at the depot is nearly out of fuel and hence useless. Given all the careful emergency preparations that local governments undertook as the crisis escalated, such as discharging patients from hospitals and moving fire engines out of the city center, one would logically presume that the responsible parties would make sure that the heavy equipment at the depot (which might well come in very handy after an attack) would be fueled and ready to go. For that matter, it's rather unlikely that the depot managers would let their heavy equipment be nearly out of fuel even in completely normal circumstances.
2. After the first bomb hits the RAF base, Jimmy flees his workplace on foot in search of Ruth. In the few minutes that elapse before the second, much larger attack, Jimmy makes it into the center of Sheffield. This would mean that the workplace, Don Joinery, must have been very close to the city center - and therefore would have been annihilated in the second attack. Yet Jimmy's workmate Bob remained behind at Don Joinery and survived unscathed. PROSA ( talk) 02:43, 26 July 2011 (UTC)PROSA
If anyone wants to challenge my recent edit of the article, then please I welcome it. - Despite the movies overt insinuation that grotesque congenital abnormalities would be far more prevalent in a post Nuclear war environment, The real world data supports that Microcephaly is the only proven malformation, or congenital abnormality, found in the in Utero developing Human fetuses present during the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings[2]. Furthermore this abnormality was only found in pregnant women within the extremely close range of 1-2 km from the hypocenter of the Nuclear explosions. In the case of Jane's pregnancy, No statistically demonstrable increase of major congenital malformations was found among the later conceived children of Nuclear weapon survivors in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boundarylayer ( talk • contribs) 15:11, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Just Noticed someone removed the Criticism section without consulting here first to discuss the matter.
The alleged reason for deletion was apparently that the section didn't cite specific criticism of the movie itself. As the Movie presents itself in a documentary like manner, and strived to be accurate in its protrayal then the criticisms previously raised are warranted. Furthermore, to placate I will include this cited criticism of the documentary itself, a criticism that is based on less techical grounds -> http://www.anthropoetics.ucla.edu/ap1001/bartlett.htm Despite the authors personal liking of the movie and having many positive things to say about it, they also note that - impressing us with the horror of the impending end of the world by nuclear warfare is no guarantee that our being so impressed will produce a desire in us to help "save" ourselves, let alone "save the world" from nuclear weapons. Inasmuch as the esthetic of Threads elicits serious horror, it creates the side-effect of serious despair, a despair that inhibits ethical conduct and invites fatalism--ironically, the fatalism one would expect its makers not to wish having created. More than any nuclear warfare movie, Threads risks destroying our faith in human agency by insisting on the "unrelievedly bleak" & the viewer might feel propelled to supplement Hines and Jackson’s Threads with the possibility for hope it obliterates in its obliteration of civilized Sheffield and its natural ecology. Otherwise, the film’s horror has no ethical import, and its effect might amount to the pornography of violence wearing the mask of anti-nuclear "awareness." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boundarylayer ( talk • contribs) 08:32, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
You wrote - so even if factually correct, it is still only your personal theory/opinion. wait wait wait, You've lost me, how is something factually correct also classified as 'only an opinion' in the same sentence? Is that some kind of doublespeak?
Does 'Threads' not present itself as a documentary? If a documentary is misleading, is it not the job of knowledgeable editors to point out such errors? Is that not exactly what I have done with a heavy degree of quality medical references?
As original research states: To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented.
Similarly You wrote- I request that you do not reinstate the first paragraph in any form, unless you can come up with reliable sources dealing directly with the issues in relation to the programme itself
For some reason you decline to acknowledge, that the criticism of the misleading deformity increase presented in 'Threads' IS directly related to the topic of the article. It is 'in relation to the documentary itself', as it pretains to 'Threads' insinuation that Congenital deformed children would be more commonplace in survivors offspring after a Nuclear war. The issue 'in relation to the documentary itself' is that on the other hand the medical data however does not support the 'Threads' point of view of. On the contrary the Radiation Effects Research Foundation have very clear findings that refute 'Threads' point of view that children would be more deformed in a post Nuclear war environment.
The RERF clearly state- No statistically significant increase in major birth defects or other untoward pregnancy outcomes was seen among children of survivors. Monitoring of nearly all pregnancies in Hiroshima and Nagasaki began in 1948 and continued for six years. During that period, 76,626 newborn infants were examined by ABCC physicians. http://www.rerf.or.jp/radefx/genetics_e/birthdef.html
The RERF ( the authority on Nuclear weapon survivor epidemiology) data has been available for quite some time, yet the makers of 'Threads' clearly, in this regard, decided to either poorly research the subject or wholesale throw the available science data out the window in making this documentary.
You're quite right though about Undue weight being given to an argument, and that argument is 'threads'- that Congentially deformed children would be born far more prevalently after an nuclear war, this is sheer flat-earth nonsense, but widely seen regurgitated ad nauseum on TV, including unfortunately, in 'Threads' seemingly for dramatic effect.
Secondly and inconsequentially, you call a UCLA paper which deals not just with 'Threads' but with a plethora of other Nuclear war depictions in the media as 'fringe' despite the paper referring to 'Threads' directly. This is very odd behaviour on your part. Not to mention you've expressed the opinion that you wish to see only a 'contemporary critical reaction' section included in this article, and not any kind of scientific criticism of the films events to be included, that's down right bizarre. From the casual observer it is beginning to look like you simply don't want there to be any effort to educate those that use this encyclopedia on the inaccuracies in 'Threads', or to put it mildly the creative licences taken by the film makers for dramatic effect.
In the Bible criticism article, no scientific rebuttal needs to find references directly criticising the Bible, by name, for a scientific rebuttal to gain equal presentation in the article. They simply have to point out observations, books and so on, that contradict what the bible is stating. Likewise here in relation to 'Threads' there is no Wikipedia policy that states one must never add anything in an article unless you have references that specifically mentions the article title by name.
Wikipedia policy however is that references must 'directly relate' to the topic. As 'Threads' presents an increase in deformed children in a post nuclear environment, and my referenced criticism 'directly relates' and rebuffs that very topic in 'Threads' then your accusation of Original Research is groundless.
You may need to take a look at Neutral point of view/FAQ 'Lack of neutrality as an excuse to delete' While the burden of establishing verifiability and reliability rests on those who are challenged about it, there is usually no need to immediately delete text that can instead be rewritten as necessary over time.
If you have a problem with the wording of the criticism, that's fine, I did begin this criticism section of this article by welcoming challenges, perhaps a more neutral approach, like removing 'insinuation' of deformities with 'creative license' might seem more neutral, although to get something so wrong in a state funded Documentary is pretty negligent, if I am to be frank.
However please do not remove well referenced medical references again that directly relate to refuting a central tenet of the Documentary that this article is about.
Thank you Boundarylayer ( talk) 19:31, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
Both Mirokado & Nick Cooper should look at: Neutral point of view/FAQ 'Lack of neutrality as an excuse to delete' -there is usually no need to immediately delete text that can instead be rewritten as necessary over time.
As I've already expressed, if you both feel that less text should be in the criticism section, that's fine, by all means whittle it down if you wish. That does not mean you may outright remove the information, as per Wikipedia's 'Neutral point of view' outlined above.
This quote of yours
Nick sadly exemplifies your lack of neutrality:
Threads is a drama, not a documentary (it is also not a "movie" as you keep claiming)
I noticed you were repeatedly attempting to dissuade others from describing Threads as a movie going back many years on this talk page. I previously didn't care to pick you up on it, but since you've again done so in a very pedantic of manners I thought I should make you aware that- Threads is a MOVIE & a 'Television drama', they're not mutually exclusive.
See- the internet MOVIE database http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090163/ notice TV Movie
http://www.allrovi.com/movies/movie/v49638 Notice 'Film', I used the word film also if you check.
http://www.anthropoetics.ucla.edu/ap1001/bartlett.htm the best movie treatment of nuclear war) is the BBC’s made-for-TV Threads (1984),
This next quote also exemplifies your lack of neutrality and bizarre bias, with yet another denial that it is a movie, going so far as to classify it as a 'play'.
Nick wrote-As regards the UCLA paper, it might be considered a valid source in the context of a proper section on critical reaction to the play,
This inaccurate description of threads as a play somehow even finds its way into the Article - ...One of the key elements of the play is that much of the reportage of world events leading up to the war is in the background...
It is not a 'Play' Nick, it is a movie. See Play & Movie as you're clearly confused. As you've continually refused to acknowledge this, for the past number of years this, I'm afraid, underlines your lack of neutrality. I wonder did you work on the Film?
http://www.screenonline.org.uk/tv/id/730560/ Threads documented Jackson and writer Barry Hines' research into the limits of Civil Defence
Even the director's wiki page describes it as a documentary Mick Jackson (director)- The 1984 docufiction Threads, dramatising the aftermath of a nuclear war, with Karen Meagher and Reece Dinsdale
Docufiction refers to the cinematographic combination of documentary and fiction.[1] More precisely, it is a documentary contaminated with fictional elements
Going by that definition, perhaps we should point out that the effects on Children as presented in Threads is one of the fictional elements studded within the documentary movie.
There is certainly more references to support that 'Threads' is at least somewhat a documentary, than there are references to support calling it a fantastical Play. but regardless, even if it was something like a comic strip, that does not mean it is free from criticism.
As for the pedantic question of Threads being a Documentary - Even if it's not, why are you contending it should be free from a rebuttal? The article on the satire Dr. Strangelove mentions quite a few rebuttals and demonstrates it is not realistic. Therefore even if the movie was wholly whimsical, to refute 'Threads' is not contrary to the rules of Wikipedia. Especially since the Threads article then /info/en/?search=Threads#Production_and_themes Goes on to list 6 Scientific advisors to the production, Are you honestly trying to make us beleive that this is normal practice when producing Plays or Television dramas Nick?
The listing of the scientific advisors insinuates to readers that the movie is somewhat an authoritative Document in film to what life would be like, after a Nuclear war.
However not a single 1 of the Scientific Advisors were Radiobiologists, with only Joseph Rotblat being anyway semi-qualified to advise on the effects of Nuclear radiation.
2 Psychiatrists - Robert Jay Lifton & Eric Chivian
2 Climatologists - Michael McElroy Richard P. Turco
2 Physicists - Joseph Rotblat Carl Sagan
Of note is that the form of Nuclear winter presented by Sagan & Turco above has been heavily revised since the 1980s, and recent modelling has shown their initial results to be based on many assumptions with many exaggerated findings. As discussed in Nuclear Winter.
Perhaps a mention of this should also be included in the criticism section, as yet another example of Threads being an exaggerated and unrealistic presentation of Nuclear war effects.
END.
You seemingly are demonstrating more bizarre behaviour, with contempt for years of science by saying to Extrapolate the potential long-term effects of a mass multi-megaton mixed air/groundburst attack on Britain with two relatively isolated low-kiloton airburst-only explosions is not particularly valid.
I'm not extrapolating ALL the long term effects, just 1 misleading long term effect presented in the movie, that of Hereditable congenital effects. As there is no solid evidence that this would be observed in reality, then this does deserve recognition and pointing out as fictional, a creative license on the part of the writers etc.
Nuclear Fallout is Nuclear Fallout Nick, it's by and large all created equal. The effects of Nuclear Fallout on survivors' progeny in Hiroshima & Nagasaki is more than Valid. As I've had quite a few courses in Radiobiology I have more than ample amounts of reading material, and I've even taken the time to prepare the following list of peer reviewed papers for you.
Before I begin, listen, I know that it is hard for many people to shake linking deformed babies and radiation from your beliefs, I've personally been there. The media constantly bombard us with that message by insinuation. The science however is pretty firm on the matter however, as I'll begin to outline.
There are many other examples that also confirm the ongoing evidence from the progeny of Hiroshima and Nagasaki survivors that no concrete hereditable effects are observed.
For example let's begin by putting Chernobyl into perspective-
https://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/nuke/effects.htm
The contamination from Chernobyl was significantly larger than would have been expected from a nuclear detonation of about 20 kT at ground level, but was comparable in extent to what might result from a 'small' nuclear war in which a dozen or so weapons of nominal yield were exploded at altitudes intended to maximize blast damage. The above FAS article was written in 1998, so one would assume 'nominal' would be approximately that of the W88 475 kt warhead. This(I acknowledge is Original research) but it puts things into perspective for both of us. 12(475kt)= 5700 kt. This is backed up by->
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2006/apr/26/guardiansocietysupplement7
Reactor No 4 at Chernobyl nuclear power complex exploded, caught fire, and for the next 10 days spewed the equivalent of 400 Hiroshima bombs' worth of radioactivity 400 x (16kt)=6400 kt. So my mental calculation wasn't too far off, although a caveat is that both sources can't be 100% right. Especially since modern Nuclear weapons are of the Teller-Ulam design, and thus unlike Little Boy at Hiroshima a large proportion of a modern weapons energy comes from Fusion, and not the main offender of Nuclear Fallout that of Fission.
So now that we have that covered, what about the progeny of the Liquidators of Chernobyl? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11121218 There was no significant difference in the frequency of inherited mutant alleles between the exposed and control groups.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11121218 'Germline mutations show no increases in the children of the Chernobyl liquidators.'
If you are still unsatistifed with these studies and think that even Chernobyl isn't enough to extrapolate, then how about Techa River about 500,000 people exposed to 20 times the radiation of Chernobyl.
http://phys4.harvard.edu/~wilson/publications/pp747/techa_cor.htm
Since genetic effects following radiation exposure might be anticipated, a study was conducted with the aim of assessing the health status of the offspring of people exposed in the Techa riverside villages. In particular, the unfavorable outcomes of pregnancies, birth rate, and the mortality rate among progeny of exposed parents are studied. No reliable effects of radiation were established.
Here, probably the most comprehensive unbiased review of all the papers up to 2001 for chernobyl, even including the controversial papers of Dubrova(which I wouldn't have included as they compare Belarus children to UK children, instead of a control group of healthy unexposed children from Belarus before the accident) http://www.unscear.org/docs/chernobylherd.pdf There is no unambiguous data to suggest Chernobyl increased the rate of Congenital abnormalities.
A bit of another digression (one you may skip if uninterested), but worth mentioning is Radiation Hormesis(I don't think there is enough solid evidence out there for it to be taken as gospel yet) but these studies are worth a read if you're interested.
What about Chronic exposure to low levels of Radiation?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21431077
Low levels of background radiation exist around us continuously. These levels increase with increasing land elevation, allowing a comparison of low elevations to high elevations in regard to an outcome such as cancer death rates etc...
Statistically significant decreases in mortality, with very large effect sizes, were observed in high land elevation for three of the four outcomes, including cancer.
What happens when you control for race? would the same positive results be evident? Yes- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22013397 Higher elevation counties showed less cancer mortality rates for a single race compared to lower elevation counties,
END.
Presenting all of is, including the previous RERF studies on Hiroshima & Nagasaki should finally make everyone accept that an increase in Congenital effects would not be observed in children after a widespread nuclear war. What would be observed is an equally horrible increase in Thyroid cancer, leukemia and other cancers, that is not at all up for debate. Not to mention malnutrition from the interruption of the food supply etc. But kids walking around like in 'Threads'...please don't insult our intelligence Mr. Hines & Jackson.
In closing, I hope we can come to some compromise, I propose something short and sweet like-
Shortened Compromise of the Criticism section. Despite the depiction of congenitally deformed children in 'Threads', in reality there is no unambiguous data available to suggest that exposure to the levels of Nuclear Fallout likely to be encountered by survivors in a 'threads' scenario would result in the effects on children as shown[here insert all the references I've included thus far relating to studies on children born after Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Chernobyl & Techa River etc.]
Threads (1984) was restrained by "the statutes governing British broadcasting which require that balance and fairness are maintained, in programs making what can readily be seen as politically related statements"
Some also have written that 'threads' is too fatalistic in it's representation of a Nuclear War and charged - the film’s horror has no ethical import, and its effect might amount to the pornography of violence wearing the mask of anti-nuclear "awareness." http://www.anthropoetics.ucla.edu/ap1001/bartlett.htm
END.
So what do you think? Boundarylayer ( talk) 09:10, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
Where did I write that I have an antipathy towards 'Threads'?
If there is any antipathy it is yours towards calling a spade a spade.
Terminology:
Threads was nominated for seven BAFTA awards in 1985. It won Best Film Cameraman, Best Film Editor, and Best Single Drama. Its other nominations were for Best Film Sound.
So BAFTA in 1985 regarded Threads as both a Drama and a Film. Well gosh, would you look at that, nothing about best Play or best television play. Funny that Nick.
If you had read up on the term Television play that you kindly linked to, you would know that it explains that the term is a partial misnomer- Although the earliest works were marked by television drama drawing on its theatrical roots, with live performances telecast from the television studio, a shift towards shooting on film occurred in the late 1970s.
http://www.screenonline.org.uk/tv/id/445349/index.html TV plays - AKA Teleplays were either performed live in the studio or filmed on stage; the word 'play' is about as fashionable as wide collars and tank tops
As we all know Threads was shot on film, and not telecast with live performances from the television studio, it is thus inaccurate to call Threads a Television play. Regardless of your personal preference for the dubious term being applied to Threads, it's not a Television play. Something myself and BAFTA recognise.
Furthermore The word Play that you consistently show a preference for to describe threads is in no way a synonym for your personal bastardisation of the meaing of Television play that is contrary to the accepted definition of that term. As a film like 'Threads' that includes no elements of an actual Play is thus quite obviously, not at all a Play! Similarly, in it's original format, Macbeth is a Shakespearean play and not at all a Film.
Henceforth to describe Threads as a Play is misleading and inaccurate. 'play' is certainly not shorthand for Television play as Threads has no elements of a true Play. Lastly, even if Threads were actually a Television play that is - a telecast of live performances from the TV studio and therefore the term would be historically more accurate than Drama, the fact would still remain that Threads is also classified as a Film. Threads is a Film & a drama(or the misnomer Television play that you prefer), as I've referenced.
Again, Film is not a mutually exclusive term, so you can keep your forthwith in your holster there cowboy, unless you want to go challenging BAFTA.
Threads', a feature length docu-drama based on the political situation at the time and the possibility of nuclear war. http://www.tes.co.uk/teaching-resource/Docu-drama-Threads-1980s-6192782/
Yet again, another British site that regards Threads as a Docu-drama.
Back to the original point-
The shortened compromise criticism : (relating to refuting the insinuation that there would be more congenital abnormalities after a Nuclear war) contains 50 words, not 300 as you suggest.
In response to the 'overt insinuation' that the film depicts a higher prevalence of congential abnormalities (You should note that, that specific wording is absent from the compromise edit).
The insinuation is there though, I simply ask you, what occurs in the film directly after the caption at c. 01:34:40 that reads:
Why Ruth delivers baby Jane! around 10 minutes later child bearing age Jane(who in the mean time has demonstrated her questionable mental faculties by uttering only simple commands, apparently unable to form full sentences) then becomes pregnant and delivers either a stillborn or a dead deformed baby (the film being deliberately ambiguous on this detail). The film then quickly happens to end with Jane screaming at the sight of the dead baby. Yet you somehow regard this as coincidental, and not at all linked to the previous caption regarding pregnancy and Fetuses?
According to your quote - That Jane's child is stillborn could be attributed to all manner of causes in a largely destroyed world without modern medical resources. Likewise, the apparent mental regression in the younger characters seen towards the end can just as easily be a result of a lack of education and a brutalised environment.
So you are honestly contending that the film doesn't insinuate that mental retardation and congenital deformities would be more prevalent? A Docu-drama about the effects of Nuclear War ending on a still shot of a likely retarded mother who just delivered a dead baby, isn't insinuating that still born, retarded & deformed babies would not be more prevalent because of the effects of radation. That this is all just circumstantial coincidence to you?
Ok, here are two examples that illustrate your standpoint is untenable.
Applying that thinking, to another caption, I take it you also regard it as a coincidence and not insinuation that directly after the caption c 1:39;30 that reads:
Skies becoming clearer, Returning sunlight now heavier in Ultra-Violet light
We see people working in fields wearing ski masks and goggles. According to your skewed reasoning applied here- the film isn't insinuating a connection between the caption and ski masks and goggles, no not at all they could easily have donned this attire simply because of something like the weather forecast was for snow, so everyone was getting acclimitized to skiing clothing. It is purely coincidence, and that it most certainly isn't insinuating that the field workers were wearing these things to protect themselves from the dangers of UV light.
Come now Nick, don't be ludicrious, every caption in the film follows with a connecting representation of the text. Another example:
Caption c 1:32:40
Attack in Spring: Darkness and Cold reduce plant activity to very low levels.
Is followed by none other than pictures of rotting crops and then film footage of frantic harvesting of the remaining crops that have survived.
As for the response from the Governing british broadcasting body and the references citing it: why shouldn't this be included? you mention it has no context, but the Broadcasting section of the article
Threads that would come directly below the proposed criticism section states that Threads was first broadcast on BBC Two on 23 September 1984.[4] It was repeated on BBC One on 1 August 1985...Threads was not shown again on British screens until the digital channel BBC Four broadcast it in October 2003. That's context enough do you not think?
In response to your claim of undue weight towards the following peer reviewed paper reference, http://www.anthropoetics.ucla.edu/ap1001/bartlett.htm Policy states in regard to undue weight. 'Editorial oversight—A publication with a declared editorial policy will have greater reliability than one without, since the content is subject to verification. Self published sources such as personal web pages, personally published print runs and blogs have not been subject to any form of independent fact-checking and so have lower levels of reliability than published news sources'
As UCLA publications' meet that criteria, it demonstrates that the reference is not at all classified as Undue weight.
Revised Shortened Compromise of the Criticism section. Feel free to chip in and contribute!
Despite the film's insinuations and text captions that depict and state the prevalence of congenitally deformed and mentally retarded children would be increased by the Nuclear Fallout, in a post Nuclear war scenario as depicted in 'Threads'. Studies of the progeny of survivors in Nuclear explosions and Nuclear accidents have found no unambiguous connection.[here we'll insert all the references I've included thus far relating to studies on children born after Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Chernobyl & Techa River etc.]
Threads (1984) was restrained by "the statutes governing British broadcasting which require that balance and fairness are maintained, in programs making what can readily be seen as politically related statements"
Some also have written that 'threads' is too fatalistic in it's representation of a Nuclear War and charged - the film’s horror has no ethical import, and its effect might amount to the pornography of violence wearing the mask of anti-nuclear "awareness." http://www.anthropoetics.ucla.edu/ap1001/bartlett.htm
Boundarylayer ( talk) 15:56, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
If the Caption in question was unprompted and Jane is intended to be protrayed as physiccally normal without mental retardation, as is her stillborn child. Then why don't you include what you have written to leave nothing up to ambiguity?
As to the disputed caption, one could equally say that the very fact that Jane is born with no physical deformity suggests no direct connection. It raises a possibility for dramatic purposes, which is then not borne out, and the script (page 229) does actually make this clear:
The BABY cries out, and RUTH sees that it is physically normal. She cries, and holds the baby to her.
As to Jane's "questionable mental faculties by uttering only simple commands," the script (pages 233-234) makes clear - by parallel printing of the "translated" dialogue - that this is a case of language having been degraded through a collapse in education, thus:
SPIKE Hoy! What'n be? (Meaning: 'What is it?') GAZ Seed'n. N'coney. (Meaning: 'I saw it. It's a rabbit.') SPIKE Giss'n. Come on. Giss'n. (Meaning: 'Give it to us.') GAZ Better, else us'll bray'n. (Meaning: 'You better had. Or else we'll beat you.')
Furthermore, the introduction explicitly states (page 15):
"In the future that Hines depicts, survivors from pre-Holocaust times still speak their language; but those who were born or grew up after the attack have developed a dialect of their own - gutteral and abbreviated, a language of survival and necessity."
Clearly the speech of Jane and her age-peers is a matter of linguistics, and not the result of some unseen yet universal deformity, so please stop trying to suggest that it is. The same applies to her stillborn child. You really do seem to be believing what you want to believe, rather than what there is actually any clear indication for on-screen, or in the script. Boundarylayer ( talk) 14:21, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
References
Nick, it's pretty misleading. Furthermore I'm not the first person in 10 years. As all the below sources suggest a deformed baby. So it appears it's a pretty frequent 'misinterpretation' as you put it, and there are many more sources supporting the same.
The movie ends with Ruth's daughter giving birth to a stillborn and presumably deformed baby. The film freezes just as she is about to scream in horror. http://threads.askdefine.com/
When Jane gives birth to a stillborn, deformed baby. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/HighOctaneNightmareFuel/Threads
Film Drama suite 101- The last shot of the film is Jane giving birth to a stillborn, deformed baby, freezing just as she opens her mouth to scream. Threads-BBC Film Review
A child born to a survivor of the nuclear bomb later giving birth herself to a hideously deformed stillborn baby. http://www.geeksaresexy.net/2010/04/05/five-of-the-best-nuclear-apocalypse-movies/
The stillborn, deformed baby at the end was the kicker for me.
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1809218
So I'm not the only one as you put it, not by a long shot, furthermore I really can't see how you are defending the caption or ending, it is intentionally misleading as to the condition of the baby. Why else would they have put the caption in? and why else would so many people write(as above) that the baby is deformed?
Lastly, I don't buy the explanation of the use of the caption as simply a dramatic tool of suspense that you are suggesting.
The film pretains to being an authenic docu-drama.
Barry Hines, best known for Kes, fashioned his script on evidence supplied by bodies as varied as the British Medical Association and the Home Office, with literally dozens of experts from varying fields - including Carl Sagan - consulted to guarantee authenticity. http://www.dangerousminds.net/comments/classic_british_nuclear_attack_drama_threads
Boundarylayer ( talk) 05:17, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
An article on a film does not have to soley deal with what is in the script. For example, here is a film, of which there are many, that does not even pertain to being a docu-drama
Saving Private Ryan, and it's article discusses many inaccuracies and other such things that appear nowhere in the script. So clearly your personal view on what should and should not be included in wikipedia articles is woefully out of line with current practice.
So much for we simply cannot include detail of that which is not there then. Boundarylayer ( talk) 13:50, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Sure, no problem, you want more reliable references. Here's more reputable sources, including a BBC writer.
Threads memorable final scene is of Ruth's daughter giving birth to a mutated, deformed baby; as the young mother starts to scream, the programme ends.
Author Will Hadcroft, author of, 'The Feeling's Unmutual,' and the, 'Anne Droyd' series.
http://h2g2.com/dna/h2g2/brunel/A653311
We are treated to a graphically disturbing portrayal of the medieval conditions that might prevail after such a conflict, including starvation, nuclear winter, disease, psychological trauma, illiteracy and both mental and physical mutation.
And when Ruth dies, her teenage daughter, whose generation can barely form sentences, has a baby deformed by radiation.
The Author Nick Wilson wrote the book - A More Human Channel: Peacebuiding on the frontline and the human rights manual First Steps, used in over 30 languages.
http://vkinoshke.ru/documentals/6325-Smotret_nbsp_Niti_Threads.html
The movie ends with Ruth's daughter giving birth to a stillborn (and presumably deformed) baby, and the film freezes just as she is about to scream in horror.
Vkinoshke.ru is akin to a Russian IMDB.
The top rated customer review of the movie Threads, voted by 70 people as helpful contains the line- ...And when Ruth delivers her daughter, it's deformed and stillborn. That's the final coda...the future of humanity. There isn't one.
Author David H. Lippman.
So as you should now see, both of your positions are untenable, give up the farce already. The previous comparison with Saving Private Ryan stands.
Boundarylayer ( talk) 08:08, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
I understand what you are trying to say in your analogy about Survivor, but it is not quite applicable, the analogy would be more accurate in this case if it was a common belief and vast numbers of people also have reiterated the same exact remember the bit when... as you. However in reality the end of the film and Jane's baby's condition is intentionally ambiguous. So again your analogy doesn't quite fit.
All of the references below state the baby is deformed-
Vast numbers of people assume that the baby is deformed-
The top rated customer review of the movie Threads, voted by 70 people as helpful contains the line- '...And when Ruth delivers her daughter, it's deformed and stillborn.'
At the very least, an addition to the article to the effect that - contrary to many sources stating to the contrary, the script does not indicate the baby is deformed.
It also strikes me, according to the scriptyou provided, Jane is said to be Horrified and disgusted at the sight of her dead baby. But why exactly would she, or any mother, be disgusted at the sight of a still born baby, let alone her own baby? 139. Interior. Hospital. Night.
The baby is given to JANE, who stares down at the bundle in her arms. Her face turns to horror and disgust. She pushes the baby away from her and open her mouth to scream. Freeze frame. Roll end credits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boundarylayer ( talk • contribs) 03:49, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
I'll think you'll find both references are more than acceptable under Wikipedia guidelines.
Threads memorable final scene is of Ruth's daughter giving birth to a mutated, deformed baby; as the young mother starts to scream, the programme ends.
Author Will Hadcroft, author of, 'The Feeling's Unmutual,' and the, 'Anne Droyd' series.
&
And when Ruth dies, her teenage daughter, whose generation can barely form sentences, has a baby deformed by radiation.
The Author Nick Wilson wrote the book - A More Human Channel: Peacebuiding on the frontline and the human rights manual First Steps, used in over 30 languages.
Is there any wonder Saving Private Ryan (and the important Saving Private Ryan#Protraying History) is regarded as a stellar wikipedia article, listed as one of the Theatre, film and drama good articles under the good article criteria, whereas this Threads article is rated so poorly?
Your insistence that there must not be any discussion of how likewise Threads protrays Nuclear War is evidence of your skewed bias.
You'll find that reference 22 of the above SPR article does not even mention Saving Private Ryan once, yet is included in the article and is part of what makes the article so good. Quotation - Inevitably, some artistic license was taken by the filmmakers for the sake of drama. One of the most notable is the depiction of the 2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich, as the adversary during the fictional Battle of Ramelle. The 2nd SS was not engaged in Normandy until July, and then at Caen against the British and Canadians, one hundred miles east. http://web.archive.org/web/20101208095306/http://dasreich.ca/normandy.html Neither does reference 23 of SPR mention the film. http://www.6juin1944.com/assaut/aeropus/en_index.php
As has been mentioned by other editors of this page, you appear to have a personal vendetta against anyone who attempts to add new material.
Regardless of your personal feelings, attempting to lie about what is acceptable for wikipedia does your case nothing but harm. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boundarylayer ( talk • contribs) 09:57, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
I think you misunderstand my intentions, as I've said already: At the very least, an addition to the article to the effect that - contrary to many sources stating to the contrary[including refs here], the script does not indicate the baby is deformed[incl script ref here].
As you acknowledge it is a common 'mis-remembering', is it not the function of an encyclopaedia to set the record straight? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boundarylayer ( talk • contribs) 22:31, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
I've taken the liberty of editing the plot again so that it includes a reference to Jane's daughter's deformities, which are visible in the film, and also her stillbirth. I'm not interested in Wikipedia etiquette so please don't correct me Hayek79 ( talk) 11:04, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
Her refers to Jane, re-read Hayek79 ( talk) 18:04, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
I have removed the following "The scattered remnants of civil or military authority are gone, as the meagre resources of food and fuel they once controlled are fully depleted, with no sources of renewal"' from the plot section, I do not feel this can be justified given the appearance of soldiers even in the final 10 minutes of the film, one of whom shoots a boy for stealing bread. After this comment there is also reference to increasing mechanisation (picture of a traction engine) and manual coal mining, which must be an implicit suggestion of a remaining authority or order. Before Jane gives birth in fact she walks through a room in which three people (presumably criminals) have been hung, I therefore disagree that in the film even the "scattered remains" of authority have vanished, when it is obvious that a certain authority does exist, centralised or otherwise. Hayek79 ( talk) 11:24, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
I see this hoary load of nonsense has raised its head again, so I will once more refer to the actual script of the play:
There is no suggestion whatsoever that the baby is "deformed," nor is any such "deformity" seen on screen. A pile of bloody rags and a clear reference to "silence" indicates stillbirth, not "deformity." All the mistaken recollections or misassumptions in however many blogs or opinion pieces can be found does not change that. Nick Cooper ( talk) 13:22, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
It doesn't matter how many times you've watched it, or when you first saw it. It is possible to describe something that is implied; did it mention in the script that the infant was stillborn? Of course it didn't, which means I ought to remove that too. Why would she scream in "horror and disgust"? Why would it have horrified her? Why would a dead baby have disgusted her? A stillborn infant wouldn't have merited that response, neither would a scream of that nature. Why didn't the midwife react, perhaps because she'd delivered babies in that condition before, she wasn't mentally disabled perhaps?
Is it not possible that rather you have made the error? Merely because something is not made explicit reference to in a script, that isn't to say that the writer did not intend for it to be interpreted as such. It is the same here with respect of both deformity AND stillbirth, for both of which there is evidence on screen and in the script. There have been several attempts to rectify the plot on this page before, it is not your private page to outline your own private views and as I have demonstrated, as have several others, the overwhelming consensus is that the baby is deformed, and for that reason the plot on this Wikipedia page will read as such. If you choose to change this again without providing evidence of anyone other than yourself interpreting the film as not involving what is one of the pre-established results of foetal exposure to radiation, I will report YOU for vandalism; until at least the administrator gets back to me. End of. Hayek79 ( talk) 17:48, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
And also for your information Wikipedia recognises synopsis and reviews from reputable websites and publications as sources; if you remove these it will be treated as vandalism. Edit: Equally given that similar sources have been provided as citation for other parts of this article, it would be inconsistent to dismiss those that I have provided. Hayek79 ( talk) 18:07, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
I'm not interested in your personal anecdotes as evidence, and quite frankly I find it insulting that you'd dismiss my citation as "mistaken" (of course you are above being mistaken, whereas everyone else must be) if that's all you can provide (aside the Guardian article, which certainly isn't conclusive by itself) Hayek79 ( talk) 19:31, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
No, anecdotal evidence confirms nothing. The Guardian review explicitly addresses the still born baby, which is assumed, much like the deformity which is assumed in the three reviews I cited, with neither being referenced in the script, but with both having been implied by sounds (or in the instance of stillbirth lack of one). Your accusation that those who came to the conclusion (with the screaming, and the fact that it has long been established that, with exposure to radiation, foetuses can suffer abnormalities such as dipygus) suffer from "hazy memories", is no less applicable to your own interpretation of the film. If your concern is that it is not present on screen (or the script), I am happy to remove both claims, since, as the interpretation of third parties is, as you claim, not permissible, neither the deformity nor the stillbirth can be substantiated. Hayek79 ( talk) 12:51, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
I've taken several screen shots of the baby on my iPad, which do in fact show that it is deformed, if I can be told how I might unload them here without violating any intellectual property laws I will. Hayek79 ( talk) 13:21, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
You still haven't responded to that point; perhaps you lack a response? Does this mean that I am correct by default? "show a fake blood-smeared dummy baby" one that is visibly deformed, the "lumps" are not consistent with the physiology of a healthy human child. "but that doesn't stop the rest of the dummy from being normal" the reverse is also applicable, it doesn't prove that the baby isn't deformed, rather the evidence I have provided proves quite the opposite; you're now in denial. We have established that the image isn't of the best quality, but that doesn't make it useless as evidence, in fact you're being inconsistent by claiming it is too blurry for you to make anything out, whilst simultaneously contesting that the bizarre lumps are in fact legs. You're wrong, please give it up.
"this goes without saying that there is no contemporary evidence of the intention", you're grasping at straws now, I'm sure I can find some. I'm also going to attempt to contact Mick Jackson. Would the harrowing effect of the film be as great if the child were merely dead? Also, your assertions about "self-perpetuating urban myths" is nonsense, it's entirely conjectural, unsubstantiated, and cannot be used as evidence. 31.55.37.27 ( talk) 12:57, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
Listen to the newscast when Ruth reveals she's pregnant, and when the news presenter mentions Soviet Foreign Minister Gromyko: He [the Soviet foreign minister] warned the United States of the dangers of what he called "an easy return to the reign of the Shah".
Mariomassone ( talk) 08:54, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
People continue to make an awful lot of presumptions when documenting the plot of the movie. Stillborn/deformed babies, Ruth's parent's being killed by looters, etc. The movie never states any of this stuff, but it keeps appearing in the plot section.
Where is the information referenced that the Tinsley Viaduct is the target of the Sheffield blast? Where is stated that it is a one-megaton blast? The Tinsley Viaduct is far off the centre of Sheffield, rather halfway between Sheffield and Rotherham. Wouldn't this be a rather ineffective target for an attack on Sheffield?-- SiriusB ( talk) 09:22, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
So we're back to the stillborn baby thing again.
Someone listed the following references:
Mangan, Michael, ed. (1990). Threads and Other Sheffield Plays. Critical Stages 3. Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press. p. 235. ISBN 978-1-850-75140-3. ISSN 0953-0533.
The Guardian: "Most Grim of Reapers", 24 September 1984, page 12.
The Guardian is an opinion piece and is thus disregarded.
Threads and other Sheffield Plays I don't know. I can't find the reference. There is only one "stillborn" mentioned, and it isn't Jane's. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.168.160.50 ( talk) 05:58, 10 June 2016 (UTC)