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The article says : "Tomotoole was a Thracian catamite who served the Roman emperor Commodus and is rumored to have died as a result of an insurgency committed in 350 CE." Commodus reigned from 168 to 193 (2nd century)
Shisharki prestani da govorish gluposti! I have to say that whoever this Shisharki is, he/she has obviously read too much of the Bulgarian nationalist literature, which has little to do with the true historical research. The non-Bulgarians may not know that this literature even claims that Bulgarians descend from aliens! Do I need to further prove its 'reliability'? I myself am Bulgarian and am sick of these writings and the ignorants who believe them! Thracians do not date back to the 5th millennium, of course, since they spoke an Indo-European language. The fact is, however, that there are no records of their 'coming' to the Eastern Balkans, its SEEMS as if they were always there. But of course they came together with the Dacians, Moesians, Illyrians, Pannonians, Greeks, etc.
Another remark to the quality of this article. There is no mention of the relations of Thracian with Daco-Moesian (Burebista was a Dacian king, not a Thracian one!), Phrygian and Armenian language and peoples.
My advise to those, like Alexander 007, who can contribute to the subject: do not hesitate to write here, you see the need is urgent! Wikipedia has become a primary source of information on the internet. I would write without hesitation, but my English is not good enough and I don't know the subject well.
I don't know who wrote all that stuff about the range of the Thracians in Neolithic times, but I haven't been able to verify it. Thracian ethnogenesis may have occured rather in the Chalcolithic period. Alexander 007 08:52, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Where did the author got the idea of Thracians being in Thrace in the 5th milennium BCE.
The correct chronology for Neolithic, Calcolithic and Early Bronze in Thrace is:
-- Sugaar 01:32, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Sugaar, I have no idea who wrote that material in this article. This article has been in need of a rewrite for years now, but I'm too lazy to undertake it. Feel free to correct the text. I've corrected bits of it here & there, such as the claim of Thracians ruling the Balkans in the Neolithic. Alexander 007 09:52, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Hxseek ( talk) 02:58, 20 January 2008 (UTC)==Thracians== "Thracians" - who made up this term? I guess it comes from the Roman province, there are no true evidences to call them Thracians. They were actually Bulgarians,... and they are still there... -- Shisharki 05:28, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
How do you know that? What do you know about the so-called Thracian language??? Whatever the historians tell you? Wrong method for learning history... - Shisharki
I don't accept any hsitorical thesis as true unless it is supported by any evidences, as most of the people. The lack of evidences means manipulation of the facts... Shisharki
probably you have no idea about the Greeks and their origin.Can you provide any source for your opinion or it is just another fallacy?
I think it is far-fetched to say that modern GReeks are mostly slav, but certainly a fair degree of Slavic intermixing occurred. Not only when the slavs first arrived, they assimilated Greeks then became linguistically re-Hellenized. This continued all the way until WWII when Slavophone greeks were Hellenized by the government. Of course, this may not be accepted by Greeks becuase it subtracts from the Ancient-modern greek continuity theory. Hxseek ( talk) 02:58, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
No, actually it doesn't. I happen to beleive in this continuity between ancient and modern Greeks but not in genetic terms, as you seem to imply, only fools think in that way (as if there wasn't any mixing with other peoples between 1600bc and 400 ad for example, but nobody disputes the continuity there) , but in cultural respects and mainly the language. Do not underestimate the power of the language common to ancient and modern Greeks. Nefeligeretis ( talk) 17:10, 31 January 2008 (UTC)nefeligeretis]
This site from Texas showing Thracian distribution: 1)probably does not represent Thracian distribution at any one time 2) assumes (though it's probably a correct assumption) that the Dacians can be considered Thracians 100% 3) the distribution in Hungary looks exaggerated, at least for most periods of history; much of Hungary was Celtic/Illyrian land in ancient times. Alexander 007 21:40, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
These are just speculations: It is almost clear that the Thracians and Greeks were from different branches of the PIE tree: the Thracians spoke a Satem language, while the Greeks speak a Centum language: the Greeks came from the western side of the Balkans, while the Thracians from the eastern side. See this image.
Also, the phrasing is based on weasel words: "some have speculated". If there was some authority in this field, then yes, we should write about it, but random speculations at a conference are not notable. bogdan 14:02, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Is the etymology of the name Thracian traced to some *PIE root? -- Kupirijo 06:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
how can they be related to myceneaneas (sorry wrong spelling) if they were woudlint they have a simmilar culture but thracians and myceneaneas have a WAY diffrent culture and thracians show a culture simmilar to near eastern/anotolian people more then any people on earth.there dress,look.THRACIANS practiced sacriface of humans wich was only present in NATIVE peoples of near east or south eastern europe.thracians belonged to the eastern med race while greeks/myceneans belong to the west med race.
What's the basis for claiming that Europa is of Thracian origin? Kaicarver 13:48, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
'''PHYSICAL characteristics of the Thracians'''
Some one here keeps trying to pass the Thracians as fair people. Actually all ancient accounts from the Illyrians, Macedons and Greeks describe them as people with dark hair and dark eyes. Nearly all people shown in Thracian tombs (within paintings and mosaics) show this to be true. This is also been the case from excavated Thracian remains where the melanin pigment in the hair and eyes is present in high concentrations. From this evidence we know they mostly had black hair and very brown eyes. All this is referenced in various anthropological books and academic peer reviewed articles. The person who tries to pass them off as fair likely has some sort of racist based inferiority complex and is looking for an ancient civilization of "fair" people to make-up that which he/she feels is missing from the history books. This is unfortunate for you! Next time you use Xenophanes, you should actually reference him from academic material as he actually never described Thracians as fair (meaning blond and blue eyed). Also this person says they showed clear similarities to Iranic peoples, yet that goes right against his/her argument that they were fair, as the Iranic peoples were all noted for their dark features. I'm not talking about some German pseudo-historians in the late 19th - mid 20th century who wanted to take credit for the history of the Ayans by trying to pass them off as fair. Anyone who wants to look at the anthropological and archeological studies will see just how dark they were. Do the research! They were in fact no different from the majority of Iranic peoples today. Anyhow, I am Alexander Alexiev and I am a physical anthropologist. To all other Wikipedians, I hope you truly follow the rules of referencing your statements in academic material and that you will keep unqualified statements from ever coming to the fore on this page again.
>> The Iranic people are not dark!! Are you blind? Go on the net and see some pictures of Iranians (not Arabs in Iran) and look at some of the Iranian models and news personalities on CNN( from a while ago). You can clearly see that they are very white and as light as Europeans. As a matter of fact, some of the models, if not all, can clearly pass as European! Before you say such stuff with certainty, go look at the pictures on the net and use your common sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.232.75.208 ( talk) 07:56, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
Thracian Royalty were red haired and blue eyed. They painted them as such and were well known for their red hair and blue eyes in all historical accounts. DNA evidence proves this fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.22.213 ( talk) 14:24, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
A. Alexiev PhD - Physical Anthropology (U. Sofia)
Analysis of Thracian remains confirms high concentrations of melanin in upper derma, hair as well as a solid melanin layer covering the collagen present in the iris, in most cases creating a complete melanin infused layer between the iris and the aqueous humour. This is my area of expertise, and I can tell you are not an expert in Tracology nor in the anthropology. In fact most of your statements are not backed up by any sort of academic references so I suggest you start reading Bulgarian materials to gain some knowledge on the matter. If you place once more the kind of non academic information within this article again I will present the entire edit history and all academic evidence to those Wikipedians that do have authority. I will then have them reference everything to anthropological research findings regarding Thracian physical characteristics and I will do my best to have you disciplined for your non referenced racial theories. Please do motivate me to do so, I will be more than happy to have the excuse...
omg i have met a person that really khows how it is i have been studying the thracians for 3 years now and i have found so much evedince from murals the cheekbone shape and many evedince that they were dark feautered,not only did they have black hair and dark eyes they also had brownish tannish skin and they also had a sligtly asiatic skull differing from the european one kinda like a native american skull but not that pure.and i can explain fair haired people in thracian socicity they were the invading cimmerians(east celts)that moved tru thrace up the carpathian mountains and went west.some of the cimmerians intermixed with the thracians and lef there fair hair traits thats why people lie and say that they are related wich they are not.but the cimmerians are the same people that live in the cacasian mountains today the fair haired people in the caucausus are cimmerians or celts.and i also dissagre with the indo european theory im pretty sure that thracians dint have indo european languge because they did arive in thrace before anyone else the indo europeans came i dotn khow how many years after them how do i khow thise??? because the thracian skeleton the found outdates any skeleton or artifact found in europe.i dont khow were the thracians came from but im sure they dint come form the indo european region.and todays bulgarians are slavs mixed with turks in the south and have little thracian blood because by there time the thracians were etinct and wat ever remained of there ansestors and its ponunced the gatae not the gothi like that guy up there said the gothi were a germanic tribe that radided the dunubian and provice of dacia.but thats not the point the gatae had some ansestors left wich lived by the black sea in todays romania and thats were u get dark haired dark skinned and dark eyed romanians because real romanians are dark fetured to isent that a a clue to that thracians were having lived int that area?i have been in romania 3 times and u can always they the mixed people there by u can see the white romanians wich i belive came from slavs,hungarians,and germanic peoples.and u can see the real romanians wich are dark haired dark skinned and dark eyed wich i belive came from dacians or another tribe of thracians.bulgarians also have the same thing they havwe a white class and a dark class of people.and also thatred haired women in the portraite artifact is not thracian orgin its more like byzantine because they found the coin of konstantin the great in there.so before u post something make sure its not like 1000 years off and belongs to the peopel u posted about.
Then why were all the royals red heads with blue eyes? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.22.213 ( talk) 14:41, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
Bulgarians actually have more Thracian DNA than Slavic and Bulgar which is proven in scientific studies that compares Bulgarian DNA with the people buried in the Bulgarian lands from thousands and thousands of years ago before the Bulgars and Slavs came. Most Bulgarians are olive skinned with brown or black hair and are the only people who can actually claim Thracians, Thracians were on Bulgarian land and only on Bulgarian territory was formed the only Thracian Kingdom and Bulgarians inherited the most Thracian traditions and DNA. Romanians have nothing to do with Thracians, they had something to do with Dacians but Dacians and Thracians are 2 different Balkan tribes, they were both kin people but still 2 different people and tribes. Kpromx ( talk) 17:39, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
when u were studying thracian skeleton or skull did u find any mongolian feutures?
I have not found the Thracian skulls to be similar to the mongoloid type. Also there have been some genetic studies conducted by various academics that confirm the presence of many phenotypes in the Bulgarian popuation that are associated with the Thracians. Genetic markers indicating Thracian ancestry are also found amongst the Romanians, Serbians, Macedonians and Northern Greeks. As for Bulgaria, like any other European country there are both fair and brunette people who make-up the Bulgarian ethnicity. Within a single family you can have brunettes, blondes, red haired relatives along with black, brown, blue, green or hazel eyes. In fact this is quite common and does indeed show that the modern Bulgarian nation is a composite of the dominant Thracian, Slav and Bulgar ethnic groups. It should also be made clear that modern genetic studies show the diversity of Bulgarians to be similar to that of the French, English, Italians, Germans, etc... ... "We" are all mixed regardless of our ethnic background and/or what our physical characterisics are, be them dominant or recessive. In general inter-ethnic mixing tends to strengthen a population over extended periods of time by eliminating 'faulty' genes that cause genetic disorders, which consequently increases the composite group's survivability.
Getting back to the Thracians, my research has led me to see them as having been physically similar to the ancient Greeks and Romans. Generally they can be conceptualized as Southern Europeans and/or Mediterranean Europeans.
[['[[Greeks, North Greeks, Macedonians]']]
I keep seeing and I quote "..north Greeks, Macedonians,.." as if Macedonians and North Greeks are something separate. I know there is a silly dispute on whether the Macedonians were Greeks but most serious historians accept that they were Greek and spoke a Greek dialect. So, if the probability that the Macedonians were Greek is 80-90% at least it should not be differentiated in the texts. There are views that some people come from Aliens, that doesn't mean that we have to add that whenever we talk about these people. Seriously, I am a Macedonian and deeply offended when I see this as Alexander (actually Alexandros) was the first power figure who managed (by force) to unite us. Thank you.[[[User:Nefeligeretis|Nefeligeretis]] ( talk)Nefeligeretis] —Preceding comment was added at 17:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
i taught u said that thracians looked like iranic people?iranic people are much more darker then roman or greek???? >>I am an ethnic English person who knows quite a bit of European and thus Bulgarian history and would like to say: what, are you serious??! The Macedonians are pure Bulgarians, read some history before you say such nonsense, please. One of Asparuh's brothers settled in present day Macedonia, along with thousands of Bulgars. Ancient Macedonians and present day Macedonians are nothing alike, read more W!ikipedia. Also the Macedonians's culture is basically the same as Bulgarian culture. The Macedonian language is a dialect of Bulgarian, it is almost basically the same!! Use your common sense here to see that the Macedonians and Bulgarians are the same people, ethnically, they also look the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.232.75.208 ( talk) 07:52, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
how about iranic europeans could u call em that?
http://www.inrne.bas.bg/Varna2005/sights/varna-3.jpg .... anceint thracian skeleton. but do thracians have hight cheekbones? cuz these skeleton shows these guy with a hight cheek bones and a flat face.
i agree with alexeiv on everything exept when he said the chariteristic traits of thracians were simmilar to greek and roman.the characteristics of thracians were more like todays most iranic peoples.thracians were alot darker then greeks or romans.juging from the murals.and juging from alexievs finds about the upper derma. >> Is your intelligence impaired??? Thracians weren't dark, please use your common sense, before saying such nonsense. None of the research and studies on Thracians ever concluded that they were dark!
The Greeks and Latins were also dark, similar to Thracians, Illyrians, Macedonians and other S.E. and/or Balkan populations... There aren't many physical differences between these ethnic groups. Anthropological findings conducted on Greeks and Latin "Italian" Romans all shows the same amount of melanin (within xy range) concentrations in derma as modern day Southern Italians. If you are interested in this topic you can easily obtain ancient mosaics and paintings from ancient Roman and/or Greek artists by looking up the subject matter on the internet. (Note: Please search through univesity library websites for reliable information!) If anyone is iterested I can also send you academic materials such as peer reviewed articles that are entirely focused on this subject. Finally, one of the most famous such mosaics is the one depicting Alexander the Great "of Macedon" during a battle with Darius III of Persia. This is the oldest portrait of Alexander and it precisely shows the very same physical features noted amongst the Southern European populations past and present.(ie: high-bridge nasal structure, dark eyes, brown to black hair, etc...) It also shows what the true Aryans (Iranic peoples) looked like in ancient time and how they still look today. Here's a link to this particular mosaic in its entirety:
Here's the close-up of Alexander: http://www.utexas.edu/courses/introtogreece/lect33/cAlexanderMosaic2.jpg
Here's a close-up of Darius III: http://www.shc.ed.ac.uk/classics/undergraduate/art/images/DariusIII.jpg
. u said they tested to see if greeks had relations with romans but have they ever tested thracians and greek toghter to see if they had anything else simmilar then just the color of there hair and eyes.? ...but i want to khow about the thracians remains u examenied...all i khow is that u khow that hair and eyes were dark and it had dark complexion but i allready khew that from the start because i read about the women that they found. but they slso suggested that the thracians were threre before the indo european arival meaning that they had a way difrent appearance then any eruopean.again i need to nhow msot of the facts about the skeleton u exameind or seen get examend i need to khow aobut the derma the eye color how u khow and the skull shape.like the cheek bones and the jaw of it.and that u propose that it had a relation ship with the south balkan populations wat gene did u find that moved u to that conclusion.i am not arguing on if greeks or latins were dark becuse i lived by greece and i seen many greek people the majority of greeks were dark so i khow were ur comming from.im not argueing whos dark or not im arguing wat peopel u said they were related to. thracian culture such as way of dress and pottey show that they were closley related to peopel of near east rahter then people of europe wich would show same genes because most people in near east are dark eyed and dark complexion and are also Mediterraneans.but there is a diffence the people of near east have a very iranian/assyrian type people the same way the thracians looked is iranian type rahter then regular south europeans wich do not have a limited number of (bronw haired people) meaning that the consetration of pegments is much stronger in near eastern people not only because of the closeness of the sun but becasue of there ansestors.im sure about 99.9 percent that thracians looke more iranic then south european sieeing as they were the only people in europe to be related to iranic/near eastern peoples.not saying they were related to persians but to other near eastern people living in those areas.
http://aycu24.webshots.com/image/40103/2003824465129417098_rs.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by GaiusCrastinus ( talk • contribs) 12:55, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I will remove Greek and Latin name rom the intro, as it misleads that the Thracians were Greeks Pensionero ( talk 14:53, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
http://www.ancient-bulgaria.com/images/Thracian_something.jpg
http://www.ancient-bulgaria.com/images/Thracian_horseman_on_hunt.jpg
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/e/e5/400px-Aleksandrovo_kurgan.jpg
http://archeologia.bourgas.org/en/images/aleksandrovo.jpg
The exact quote from Xenophanes goes "The Ethiopians say that their gods are flat-nosed and black skinned, while the Thracians say that theirs have blue eyes and red hair. Yet if cattle or horses or lions had hands and could draw and sculpt like men, then the horses would draw their gods Like horses, and cattle like cattle, and each would shape the body of Gods in the likeness of each kind, of their own." Now he says that the Thracians have red hair and blue eyes and in such a way too mark it as common as the black skin of Ethiopians. This can't be completely dismissed surely? Either he was lying to his audience who would have seen straight through him being well acquainted with the appearance of Thracians, or the Thracians worshiped red headed gods, which again doesn't make sense as the point Xenophanes is making is that we make gods to look like ourselves. The last explanation is that there were a fair number of red haired blue eyed Thracians. umm no thracians worshiped dark haired dark eyes gods u see that guy with the axe??that was there most supreme god which means they made him in there own image.they could not see stratigh tru his lie because most greeks have never seen thracians.and another wrongess of thise theory is that ethiopians are the most unsnubed nosed people of the aficans alot of ethiopians are straith nosed showing semetic simmilarity.xenopahnes was probably mislead about the dsicreptions of thracian gods like orpheus,dionsysus,ares wich were corupted by greek histortorians who were acelly PHILOSOPHERS the thracians always decipted in ancient greek art as being dark haired and eyed.and the thracian murals wich where done by thr thracians decept them as dark haired and eyed people with a browned haired minority.but still with a dark/olive skinned compleixion.how about we let the ACTUAL THRACIANS DECIDE WHAT THEY LOOKED LIKE INSTEAD OF A POET/PHILOSOPHER.and also the findiand of academic research on thracians wich show them to have hight consetrations of millinia in upper derma and around iris area wich means they were dark complexiod with dark eyes.with thise evidence from both ancient and modern information we can surly dismiss thise misleading.also if they had a large ammount of red haired people herodoctus would have surley noted on that yet another point wich proves the idea of fair thracians as a lie.thracians surley looked like the hunter murals that THEY have drawn what u think they drew the wrong people???most thracians were accely aboriginal people of southern europe and anotolia.
ya but we do have good scientific evedince because anthropologist have tested thracian remains and have found them to have hight malanin in both iris and upper derma that means that thracians were mostly black haired and dark eyed
the murals just sopport thise ansewere and the idea of fair thracians is almsot not sopported by anythign but that passsage from Xenophanes and since u allready confiremed that greeks used difffrent pigment for women and man but in reallity it was not thise way.
i have allready given an explanation why thise philosopher Xenophanes would say that is because many GODS that were considered thracian gods were corupted by greeks and turned into there own version and since greeks taught that ALL northerns were read haired and blue eyed they probably made there gods look thise way.but in reallity it was not thise way because the guy with the double headed axe is god of thracians and look the way they descibed him black haired and very dark eyed with olive darkish skin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.172.119 ( talk) 20:29, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
The thracians were red haired and blue eyed as described by contemporaries. The citation of Cohen's merely asserts without evidence. I have actually read it. Heavenly horseman ( talk) 02:30, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
the vlachs were not romanized dacians the vlachs were romans and there colonists who were mostly mixed with the slavs that settled in that area it was reported by and italian historian that alot of them had particular color of eyes meaning blue or green eyes and brown hair wich proves that they were mostly mixed with slavs who settled there.and vlachs were not the ansestors of all romanians they were the ansestors of south romanians the provonice wallachia that is were the wlachs,vlachs lived and ansestors are only in that area not of all present day romanians there were other pricipalites and all of them had diffrent people living there like moldovia and transalvania they were diffrent people who spoke a common languge because of the geographical region.so please do not place vlachs as ansestors of romanians or even more wrong romanized dacians the vlachs were one of the people and belonged to the south pricipality so place vlachs as people of the wallachian pricipalaty not of all romanians and deffinetly not of romanized dacians. Why diferent people speak same language? I was ther a Romanian empire under Asanov brothers, who forced them to speak same language? The romans retreat somewere in 3rd century at south of danube, and slaves comes in 5 century, If in the north of the danube the latin was mixed with dacian, carpian, whatever language, how from the mix of slavic and latin resulted the same language? what is the name of that famous italian hystorian? What is very clear is that, concerning the origin of romanians, when hungarian nationalist hystorians and bulgarian nationalist hystorinas will agree abuout the subject, will be very clear that romanians came somewere around XIX century from outerspace, carried out by aliens, till they agree still, nobody will know for sure the origin of the vlachs, still I belive that are some sources who can make an objective opinion. Personaly i belive that all romanians are the ancestors of the modern bulgarians, why bulgatrians speak a diferent language? Is there is a simple answer: because of the geographical region.lol really i can see u dont khow history WHILE THE ROMANS THEMSELVES REATREDED FROM DACIA THE COLONISTS FROM ALL OVER THE EMPIRE WHO SPOKE "LATIN" STILL CONTUNUED TO COLONIZE DACIA VLACHS NOR ALOT OF ROMANIANS DONT LOOK LIEK THRACIANS AT ALL THRACIANS HAD BLACK HAIR AND "VERY" BROWN EYES AND OLIVE SKIN.MOST OF VLACHS WERE BROWN HAIRED AND BROWN EYED WICH SHOWS THEY WERE VERY MIXED PEOPLE.HAZEL ECT.WHY WOULD THRACIANS SPEAK LATIN LANGUGE IF THEY WERENT OVER POPULATED WHY WOULD THRACIANS IN BULGARIA SPEAK SLAVIC IF THEY WERE OVER POPULATED???THE ANSWERE IS SIMPLE IN ROMANI AND BULGARIA THERE ARE ONLY INDUVIDULAS OR PHENOTYPES WHO ARE DECEDENTS OF THRACIANS THOSE PHENOTYPES SHOULD be "most" with black hair dark eyes and olive skin.there is no simple answeres for thise ae u saying that history is not complecated at all??in bulgaria it is diffrent story because the romans that killed em of or ASSIMILATED THEM WERE THE BYZANTIUM ROMANS. Some sorce says that in Dacian wars 50.000 dacian were killed or send in slavery, others say that even in Roman times in areas of what was Bizantine empires people speak greek language. There is no simple answers if you want to demonstrate tahat the ancestors from Balkans were ethnically pure. Because I belkive that that population from this area coexisted without having this problem, Roman colonist with gots, and slavs, Bulgars and cumans and pecenegs, or vlachs an bulgars. And so the historians don't have the concept of etnicity, for this this reason some bisantine historians name Hungarians daci :)lol really u khow why byzantine historians named hungarians daci because they lived in dacian lands not becasue they looked same and i want to khow where u got the source where byzantines called hungarians daci plz listm website or academic inforamtion.and what u said is exactylly my point the balkans is as mixed as any other region in europe u cant really say that any one is decedents of any one because of the divercity of people.but the thracians on the other hand where mostly thracian ehtnic group and people who are decedetns of them are black haired and dark eyd and OLIVE skinned as thracians were a mix of ABORIGINALS and indo european invaders but most of the thracians still looked more aboriginal then indo european with slitghly curled hair some had very stratigh hair.so my point is vlachs could not have been decedents of dacians because first they dint look like them and second the vlachs spoke a LATIN LANGUGE.wich proves indepented roman colonists still settled the lands from the west.I'll came back with references ( i'm not quite sure if there was Ana Comnena). Still the Romanian Museum of Cluj present Tracians like 1.50 m, red hair and very strog features, nor caucazian not aborigenal :) But this all isuue can be solved as hu8ngarian Ministry of health tried : they recover adn form two cuman necropolis, and comared adn with Hungarian people and with some diferent people from europe. Result ? Not quite godd from political stand. The only result published is that the Cumanas share agreat diversity of genes, lol. We can do same thing with thracians ... Still if you say that vlachs were not tracians/dacian why not to say that they were latinised gots, the gots were here, they go is hispania, and there after the gots invasion is a latin people, is the same probability, is an hypotesis not a fact :) And by the way can you tell where the frygian origin of the tracians originate, I've encounter this in a hystory book?ok while all anthopologists and thracian murals present them with black hair dark eyes and olive skin ey i think the sinetists are lieng lol =D amazing how much u want to do to lie.they have found thracians tablets and there langue thas not at all match frygian one.they had there own langue branch or group.and stop confusing aboriginal with the australian aboriginals im talking about the thracian aboriginals wich had there own eastern race.i dont care what some musem presetns them as i seen in america musem present native americans with brith red hair so lol why would i care at all what some one made out of a plastic dummy???if u base ur results on dummys it shows how much of a dummy u are i base my results ON ATCUAL THRACIANS MURALS AND ACADEMIC REASECH AND ALL SHOW THRACIANS TO BE BLACK HAIRED PEOPLE WITH DARK EYES AND "olive" skin color.why are u bringing cumans into thise conversation i dont care who they were im talking about thracians and ur tryign to state false facts about them.lol so in ur oppinion vlachs were thracians lol???evfen toguth they dint look liekt them and the very first quetion to u is why would a tribal people like thracians adopt a latin languge if they werent over populated by invaders or colonists???why do u think that a whole nation would learn latin from 3000 people???but again u can belive in thise plastic dummy in the musem to fill the missing pages of history jsut as alixeiv said rather then archeological finds or the fact that most thracians thracians were black haired dark eyed and olive skinned juging on the malanin in upper derma.ye ok plastic dummy says more =D.i can see that u are hungarian tough well i want u to khow that im not a natinolists because most bulgarians or romanians are not decedents of thracians at all.i just state facts that are proved acedemicaly and by arheological finds while ur stating stuff like plasitc dummys in musems andnot acceul accedemic reaserch of the skull i dont need any dna or anythign all i need is the ammmount of malanin of the skeleton and i can tell wheher what race he was.well it is same as dna test but u khwo what i mean =D and those murals up there i want to nkow ur opinion on those =D what u think thracians drew the wrong people???and they show those people with lightly curled hair like other thracian arts cofirm just go to external links on thise article u will see.so i dont get ur point in ur opinion thracians drew the wrong people and they spoke latin and not thracian lol i think not =D espicialy when academic proff proves thise to be right and all the proff u got is a plastic dummy in a musem =D same thing as they showed attila with red hair and light eyes =D and most scientist who are correct sayt hat thracians were aboriginals mixed with indo europeans or are the sicetists lieng about that to??lol but since the genes of aboriginals were more stronger msot thracians still looked like aboriginals and thise is wat an aborigianl fo southern europe looked like LIGHTLY CURLED HAIR USSUALY BLACK OR DARK DARK EYES WITH SOMEWHAT NARROW SLITS FOR EYES DARK OR VERY BROWN EYES SKIN WAS INTERMETIADTE OR OLIVE SKIN COLOR and all the phenotyopes of thracians found in romanian or bulgarian population show thise to be tru as all phenotypes show that they are black haired olive skinned and dark eyed with ANOTOLIAN facial feutures.
The museum dummyes are generaly made by antroplogists, but you can find even your melanin. By the way you know what is the semnification of the Daci for ancient greek speakers? It means SLAVES :) who cares what there name meant from greeks?? we are talking about how they looked.those dummys were not made by antopologists just as the dummys in america arent made by antopologists but by common people who study history.in the prehistoric tomb u posted what were u trying to prove with that??if those dummys were made by antopologists then it would of shown them with black ligly curled hair dark eyes and olive skin because thats what the malanin presents them to be and there murals.AND THATS ACCELY HOW THEY LOOKED.i dont get what u are trying to prove when everything has allready been proven.=D but plz do explain what u were trying to prove with the tomb picture ??
when alixeiv said there are genitic markers indicating thracian ansestry among romanians bulgarians ect he meant that some people amosgst those have a mixed thracian ansestry meaning that not many people are but they are still found amosgst those people it dosent eman that those people have decended from thracians wich can be found wronglly boht by history and science.no people have thracian ansestry they just have people amosgst them who have a mixed asnsestry.and thracians dint become hellenized in thrace them became dead by roman colonists and legions killed most of them off the ones who have not been killed fleed away.where are u getting ur historical resources??
today in iran all the way to india they have found fair people in iranic populations where do thesse people come from i want to ask ur opinion as im focused on thise subject. >> Have you no common sense and general knowledge? The Iranians are naturally Caucasian and as light as Europeans!! Go look at some Iranian models and CNN news personalities of the past not to mention the women who won Miss Germany was half Iranian, look at her, and you will see what I mean. Go to http://mywomen.blogspot.com/2006/04/persian-iran-girls.html AND YOU WILL SEE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.232.75.208 ( talk) 08:13, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
My map my map offers more info and is better looking than jigiby's jingiby's.I suggest we use only mine Megistias ( talk) 11:31, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
I originally removed the Bulgarians reference as I saw no relevance to it in the context was missing and I didn't see what Bulgarians had to do with a section discussing the ethnic type of ancient Thracians. I've cleared up the context in another way now. Monshuai, I do not appreciate your continued accusation of vandalism (as in the edit history), or any other accusations. I make my edits in good faith. Your continued implications that I do not are very wearying. Martijn Faassen ( talk) 00:56, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
>> Are you insane, the Bulgarians ARE DESCENDED FROM THE THRACIANS!! DO you know absolutely nothing about history. Im asking you, please learn more history before you say such senseless and uneducated comments. I cant believe it!!! The Bulgarians clearly have something to do with this section, as they are the carriers of Thracian genes!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.232.75.208 ( talk) 08:16, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
u are the real vandalist thise is a talk board where peopel bring theories in but u delete there therieos becuase u think ur so smart that u are the only one right when im sure u have no evedeince to soppurt or to deny anythign posted on here the mural was proff because if they dint draw the people rightly why did they draw the horse right???the dog??and why does the mural painting fall in with the proof that modern anthropologist that examiened thracian remains malanin ammount fall togther that they were infact as dark as they drew themselves in the mural.that is poof where is ur proof? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.19.116.191 ( talk) 16:34, 12 January 2008 (UTC) and also to the guy saying that romanians and bulgarians are MAINLY OF THRACIAN DECENT and not that the thracians MADE A BIG IMPACT ON THOSE POPULATIONS where is ur proff i read the deinekes page and it says that the thracians only contributed to those populations.
Thracians were not dark and they were not Mediterraneans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.99.217.117 ( talk) 21:53, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Hey I have read this discussion page and the thracian main page and it has a bit of nonsence. This is because it states that thracians are dark and mediterranean and also like the modern day iranians. That is full of rubbish. Thracians were like cimmerians and were fair in complexion. Also there is reference about thracians being related to the Swedes and a few other Scandinavians. Another source considers that the Swedish ancestors were Thracians. Thracians numbered second in population after the Indians in the ancient days and they had scattered and settled in many places in central and northern Europe. Albanians, Romanians, Bulgarians and some western Balkan states are considered of having the most Thracian in them and none of these populations are dark and like Iranians. Also other central europeans state that they have Thracian ancestry. No Iranians or other western Asiatic/middle eastern countries have Thracian ancestry because they are mostly of Arab, Turkic and a few Anatolian ancestry. Xenophane's quote even says that Thracians are light with red hair. Even in films and other artistic pictures show Thracians as having Western characteristics. I have read some sources about its archaeology and considers them as also having European characteristics similar to the Nordics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by D Yankov ( talk • contribs) 20:40, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
it is proven when you try to say something smart ignorant people always turn to offending the person trying to say something thise is the cause of jealosy or hate for no appert reason one thing i do agree on is that no one has ever seen a thracian with their own two eyes but every one is trying to build some illusion that will make them feel confortable with the thracians appearance my answere is thise people still dissagree on people appearances today on even people they seen.so how can thise be so simple??
NO ACTUALLY YOU DON'T KNOW BECAUSE I AM FROM BULGARIA AND MANY BULGARIANS ARE LIGHT COMPLEXION. THE DARK ONES ARE THE GYPSIES AND THIS IS THE TRUTH. —Preceding unsigned comment added by D Yankov ( talk • contribs) 20:21, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
The section named "Thracian universe" really badly needs cleaned up.
Lines like: "Working on this project gave me the opportunity to travel again across my beautiful country viewing it from an entirely new perspective" are totally inappropriate for an encyclopedic entry!!
I think the entire section should be removed, it is written extremely poorly and is not coherent or topical. I don't see what Ivo Hadjimishev's "ultimate pleasures" have to do with the article. This isn't a human interest story.
72.38.147.166 ( talk) 05:06, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Total garbage. I've removed it all. Good call. -- Tsourkpk ( talk) 05:18, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
THE CHARACTERISTIC SECTION IS ALL WRONG. THRACIANS WERE NOT MEDITERRANEANS AND WERE NOT DARK! —Preceding unsigned comment added by D Yankov ( talk • contribs) 20:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Both ideas are conjecture. It would make sense that given their proximity to Greece, they'd look similar to Greeks, but we have little hard evidence Hxseek ( talk) 08:59, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
-- Tueday Dining In Room ( talk) 11:45, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
I took the liberty of cleaning and organizing the article. It was frankly in a disorganized state for many months and no one seemed interested in remedying this basic problem.
I know it is preferable for many of you (including myself) to argue and engage in debates. However, all I ask is that all of you please try to maintain the article's current state as best as possible. Thank you and have a nice day. Deucalionite ( talk) 20:47, 18 June 2008 (UT
care to provide your sources that say they DID look like greeks??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.19.118.114 ( talk) 21:54, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Why are people removing referenced info that shows the Thracians had a Mediterranean appearance and were indeed relatively dark? These facts have already been discussed by the scientific community and are also evident in the Thracian murals. Thracians are depicted as having dark hair and dark eyes. Furthermore, the only mural in which a light person is shown is actually depicting a servant. There are many academic references that show that people in Southern Europe at the time described slaves as being light haired and light eyed. These references can also be placed in the article if people keep writing nonsense about the Thracians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Monshuai ( talk • contribs) 03:48, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
Summary:
1) Evidence from physical anthropological studies determined that Thracians had a Southern European appearance and belonged to the Aegean/Pontic anthropologic type.
2) Evidence from Thracian murals confirms the Southern European appearance (dark hair and eyes).
3) Genetic tests show that the modern Balkan populations are genetically closer to Thracians than any other populations. The people of the Balkans also generaly have a Southern European appearance and those who have relatively light features usually have a minority of recessive traits brought into the Balkans by the Goth, Celt and Slav invasions. -- Monshuai ( talk) 03:58, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
I am going to readd scientific DNA-study, which was removed without reason. Jingby ( talk) 16:35, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
This Orpheus issue ("Bulgarian tourist board uses Orpheus. Greek patriots outraged") is so extremely trite that I doubt it should be mentioned on a nationalism article, let alone the Orpheus article. It most certainly has no place in our article on the Thracians. Illyrianism is a big thing in both Croatia and Albania. If you can document something similar for Bulgaria, that would be fine. -- dab (𒁳) 18:10, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
This article is about the Thracians, not about Orpheus or about Bulgarian nationalism. By the way the Ancient Greeks did not have close relationship to the Thracians. Jingby ( talk) 05:23, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Read at first The Fallmerayer's thesis, chears! Jingby ( talk) 09:58, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
the relation of the Thracians to the Ancient Greeks is very much within the scope of this article. Can we just please try to discuss it on a scholarly level, as opposed to, you know, waste time with the Bulgarian tourist office and internet nationalism? -- dab (𒁳) 10:15, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Here are my grounds for removing the section outright:
Here's an in-depth revision of the claims in the section and their referencing:
Bonus:
I hope I have managed to prove that Megistias is using out-of-context quotes by low-reliability sources, alongisde mostly irrelevant academic material that has little to do with his actual claims, to push an (unreferenced!) point of view. To put it short, he basis his entire stand that Bulgarian nationalism claims Thracians were Bulgarians on a single newspaper quote by a single archaeologist. I also hope you'll excuse my colour-coding and style, no offence meant. Todor → Bozhinov 19:18, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Bulgarian nationalism interprets anything Thracian as Bulgarian. [1] During the 2000s, Bulgarian archeologists led by Nikolay Ovcharov declared that they had discovered the Tomb of Orpheus in Bulgaria [2] despite the fact that Orpheus was a mythological figure and that the Tomb of Orpheus was known since antiquity to be found close to Olympus in Libethra. [3] [4] Orpheus was used as a poster face for Bulgarian tourism [5] even after issues had been raised by Greece. [6] The Bulgarian side rejected the fact that Orpheus lived in mostly close to Olympus [7] [8] in a place called Pimpleia and claimed that "Bulgaria was the Land of Orpheus". The myth's Hellenic origin was rejected [9] it was claimed that "Orpheus lived in Bulgaria", despite the fact that the myth is clearly Ancient Greek [10] [11] [12] and that Thracian does not equate Bulgarian. The Greek response, [13] expressed by Alexandra Christopoulou of the Athens National Archaeological Museum, was as follows: "Nations claim Greek heroes all the time. It happened with Alexander the Great and now with Orpheus. Bulgaria did not even exist at the time." Nikolai Ovcharov claimed that Orpheus was of Bulgarian origin somehow equating Thracians with Bulgarians. [14] Megistias ( talk) 19:27, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
That is absolutely not serious. There is much bigger and important controversy considering Alexander of Macedon, the Ancient Macedons and the Ancient Kingdom of Macedon, where both the Rep. of Macedonia and Greece are seriously involved in political discussion but in none of these articles is even mentioned about the ridiculous Macedonian claim, supported officially by their government and society and you want to include such a section for the Thracians having in mind that the Bulgarian state, historians, society and public opinion does not consider the Thracian being Bulgarians. Neither do the nationalists. Obviously the Thracians are our far ancestors (only because they inhabited the Bulgarian lands, not because they took part in the process of formation of the Bulgarian people in 9th century) and have their little share in the modern Bulgarian blood but that is the same for the Ancient Greece and modern Greece. It has almost nothing to do with your modern country. -- Gligan ( talk) 10:34, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
The Bulgarian government does not consider the Thracians for Bulgarians. It has never considered that and will never consider it. Furthermore, I have never heard even Ovharov saying that the Thracians were Bulgarians. Some people might claim that Orpheus was a Thracian and lived in the Rhodopes but no one says he was a Bulgarian. That is laughable.
Bulgarian nationalism can't have strong connection with the Thracian because we have an exact date of the creation of our state, 681, and the nationalists might say that were the greatest, the best, the most civilized and so on but only after that year. And if they are saying nonsense about earlier years (they are in fact), it would be linked with the Bulgars. -- Gligan ( talk) 12:15, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Overall, I believe I have further proven that the Megistias' goal in including this section is not to contribute to the encyclopedia, but to promote a national point of view. Thus, I'm removing the section and I honestly expect not to see it again in a similar incarnation. I'm monitoring the development of this article. Todor → Bozhinov 20:56, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
This is pretty one-sided. Todor is largely correct: the simple fact is that this material is {{ offtopic}} at an article on the ancient tribe, and though it might have some relevance at a Bulgarian nationalism article - altough it would probably need better sourcing than it has - Megistias was being disruptive for trying to edit-war it in here. For which he has been blocked. Everyone can move along until next time. Moreschi ( talk) 00:01, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
References
The section regarding Thracian religion contains the following sentence fragment:
Many mythical figures, such as the god Dionysus which the Greek refounded from the Thracian god Sabazios.
I can't figure out what its intent is exactly, or I'd make the edit myself. It seems to say that Thrace had a lot of gods who were adopted into the pantheons of other cultures, or it could just mean that those deities are better known by their Greek counterparts, or something.
Some expert will have to make the change. Rangergordon ( talk) 03:31, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
I've just completed a cleanup of unsourced and dubious material, and polished up the style. Dominus Vobisdu ( talk) 01:41, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
http://soltdm.com/langtdm/phon/palatala_e.htm I don't think so. Reaper7 ( talk) 22:54, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
The source was used to support the following statement:
Olteanu's statement is very weak. Notice the words "appears to". It's also a very extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary sourcing.
It would take a VERY strong RECENT source to back up Olteanu's suggestion. Kretschmer and Mihailov are probably not going to be enough.
There is also the question of notability. Has Olteanu's suggestion stimulated discussion and research in the scholarly community? What proof is there of that (cites in papers published in peer-revewed journals, preferably non-Romanian ones)? Dominus Vobisdu ( talk) 17:00, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
I found these Thracian related pictures on Flickr. I think they could be a great addition to this and related articles.-- Codrin.B ( talk) 03:52, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
PLEASE I WANT PROOF OF THIS AND NOT SOME FAIRY TALES FROM A GREEK WRITER I WANT "PHYSICAL" DNA PROOF THAT THEY WERE BLUE EYED AND RED HAIRED... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.185.11.18 ( talk) 07:08, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
Look, I'm from Bulgaria and I've seen thousands of people, maybe tens of thousands, and not once have I personally seen a natural redhead, not once. The closest you can get is auburn hair in some children and even that's incredibly rare. As a whole red hair is certainly not present over 1% as is the case in virtually all of Southeastern Europe and the Balkans. Red hair has just never been a common feature here, it's so atypical that some people don't even know of its existence, seriously! And keep in mind that most Bulgarians do descend directly from Thracians. Here it's also generally accepted that the Thracians were indeed darker featured. The fair hair and blue eyes of some Bulgarians today come mostly from the Slavs and even now such features are still a modest minority.
The real problem here is that people don't listen to science. I doubt that most of these ancient writers have even been to Thrace, let alone spent time on empiric anthropological studies. It's pretty obvious that these sources refer to lumped stereotypes of all northerners at the time. It may also be a case of relativity as even today some Greeks refer to medium and light brown hair as 'blond' because its lighter than what they're used to see. So yeah, I brought back some modern scientific and reliable sources... I'll let someone else deal with the ancient writers(as wikipedia has high tolerance for irrationality it seems)... it might still serve some purpose as a historic curiosity perhaps but certainly nothing to be taken seriously. 94.156.40.82 ( talk) 13:13, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
Being as blue eyes and fair hair are recessive genes, its quite plausible a population with these genes could have become swamped by darker genes through hybridization and/or moved on elsewhere. There were many migrations in the remote past you know. Til Eulenspiegel ( talk) 13:28, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
If blue eyes and fair hair were recessive in the true sense of the meaning then logic dictates that they would have vanished a long time ago. The myth that blond hair and blue eyes are about to disappear used to be a hoax, you know. Also, the largest migration after the Thracians was that of the Slavs who were actually lighter and not darker featured than the Thracians. If you look at depictions made by the Thracians themselves you can find that they were not atypical Southern Europeans. 94.156.40.82 ( talk) 13:50, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
Logic doesn't dictate that fair genes would have become extinct long ago, else there would be no recessive genes anywhere in the world. Logic dictates that there are serious limiting factors to the rate at which recessive genes can disappear locally or globally. Til Eulenspiegel ( talk) 14:06, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
Then how do you suppose that recessive traits such as blond hair have become and remain a majority in Scandinavia or light eyes in all of Northern Europe after hundreds of generations of intermixing with dark(dominant) genes since pre-history? 94.156.40.82 ( talk) 14:48, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
No wonder you are confused, almost all Bulgarians are not Thrakian and yes it is spelled that way. Rufus, or 'red-hairs' were specifically Kelts not Thrakian, anyway there are Greeks with red hair and probably Bulgarians. No one actually reads word for word, red hair was rare and unique in the history. "Thracians" would be called Greeks today and so would Trojans, and all of the Europeans in the east were Byzantine and probably mixed a little through marriage later anyway. There is a difference between Classical Greeks and Non-Classical Greeks. Bulgarians are a mixed Slavic tribe, you do know that don't you? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.252.6.62 ( talk) 12:29, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
They were red haired and blue eyed as described by contemporaries. If anyone should be doubted it is the random modern assertions. One should not forget that the Bulgars became Bulgarian by the invasion of an Asiatic people. Formerly, the region of Bulgaria was even Germanic for a time i.e., had inhabitants with blond hair and blue eyes Heavenly horseman ( talk) 02:33, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
"One should not forget that the Bulgars became Bulgarian by the invasion of an Asiatic people." Only one of many such invasions, I might add, over millennia Heavenly horseman ( talk) 02:34, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
I have several academic degrees and I still don't know what this sentence means. "Scarcely attested"? Translation, please? 69.125.134.86 ( talk) 14:45, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
It is perfectly comprehensible Heavenly horseman ( talk) 02:35, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
Wow, some racial studies or political science course should read over this Talk page and discuss how volatile discussions over race and nationalism are, even when they involve an ANCIENT group of people that lived two millennium ago. What difference does it matter what color hair, eyes or skin people who lived in an ancient society had when there has been 2,000 years of intermarrying, migration and resettling of tribes since then? Many other cultures have moved through this geographical area since the Thracian civilization died out.
It's like Americans claiming to have Native American heritage when they had one great-great-great-great grandparent who their family says was Native American (according to family memory, of course). Only in this case, we're talking about 200 years ago, not 2000 years! 69.125.134.86 ( talk) 15:10, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
The map of the "Tracian state" is problematic. Even the source says is extended between the Strymon and the Hebrus, the map shows the kingdom extending all the way to the Haliacmon. Furthermore, the source says that it did not include the coastal strip, but the map shows that it does. It needs to be corrected, otherwise it shouldn't be in the article. Athenean ( talk) 17:12, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
The map shows the entirety of Macedonia inhabited exclusively by Thracians, which is just plain wrong. Pella and Aigai as Thracian settlements in the 5th - 3rd centuries BC? Please. There are much better maps in the article, I see no reason or need to use this one. Athenean ( talk) 07:14, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
I think the map should be modified before it can be used in the article. Athenean ( talk) 17:22, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
@Jing.: Glad you agree that the 5-3rd map is pure wp:or, since the west of Axios Thracian precense and the so-called Pella and Lysimachia Thracian settlements are simply since fictions (Chalkidiki and Sindos are not even border areas in the contested map in which Thracian precense is stretching as far as Olympus, nw Thessaly and Orestes). Alexikoua ( talk) 17:29, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
About Chalkidike & Sindos I'm ok, but the map includes much more apart from that. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:11, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
It appears that the specific map has several issues:
For the above reasons it appears clear that the specific map has multiple problematic issues. Unless someone can fix all this I can't see any excuse to keep it here. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:18, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
dia.org/wiki/File:Odrysian.gif.svg]] and get rid of the problematic one. Alexikoua ( talk) 11:53, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
There is a lot of talk about Thracian warfare but besides the picture at the top, no mention of Thracian weaponry — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sirhc789 ( talk • contribs) 20:30, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
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I am surprised to find that there is no mention in the article of tumuli or burial mounds as one of the most prominent feature of known Thracian culture. -- Bollweevil ( talk) 12:33, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
"Ancient authors described as red-haired several groups of people." This sounds like WP:NOTAFORUM "They claimed that all Slavs had red-hair, and likewise described the Iranic Scythians as red haired." Well based on archaeological surveys of ancient Slavic burials this observation rings completely true. Overwhelming majority of the bodies unearthed had red hair [1], and ancient Scythian and other Indo-European burials burials stretching all the way from Crimea to the Tarim Basin have unearthed more people with fair hair or the DNA for it than people with dark hair. I am very suspicious of Mrs. Cohen and whether or not she has an agenda in trying to historically re-engineer the Thracians as some sort of diverse race of people
BarbossaMillenia ( talk) 04:29, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
References
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 01:22, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
Karabasmo/Karabasmos
There are many steles for heros with this name.
It matches exactly with 2 Turkic word:
Karabaş: meaning Black Head(es) Karabasma: Nightmare
Coincidence?
Link for Karabas/Karabasmo/Karabasmos
http://lupa.at/21905/photos/1 UzunbacakAdem ( talk) 16:55, 24 May 2022 (UTC) Uzunbacak Adem
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The article says : "Tomotoole was a Thracian catamite who served the Roman emperor Commodus and is rumored to have died as a result of an insurgency committed in 350 CE." Commodus reigned from 168 to 193 (2nd century)
Shisharki prestani da govorish gluposti! I have to say that whoever this Shisharki is, he/she has obviously read too much of the Bulgarian nationalist literature, which has little to do with the true historical research. The non-Bulgarians may not know that this literature even claims that Bulgarians descend from aliens! Do I need to further prove its 'reliability'? I myself am Bulgarian and am sick of these writings and the ignorants who believe them! Thracians do not date back to the 5th millennium, of course, since they spoke an Indo-European language. The fact is, however, that there are no records of their 'coming' to the Eastern Balkans, its SEEMS as if they were always there. But of course they came together with the Dacians, Moesians, Illyrians, Pannonians, Greeks, etc.
Another remark to the quality of this article. There is no mention of the relations of Thracian with Daco-Moesian (Burebista was a Dacian king, not a Thracian one!), Phrygian and Armenian language and peoples.
My advise to those, like Alexander 007, who can contribute to the subject: do not hesitate to write here, you see the need is urgent! Wikipedia has become a primary source of information on the internet. I would write without hesitation, but my English is not good enough and I don't know the subject well.
I don't know who wrote all that stuff about the range of the Thracians in Neolithic times, but I haven't been able to verify it. Thracian ethnogenesis may have occured rather in the Chalcolithic period. Alexander 007 08:52, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Where did the author got the idea of Thracians being in Thrace in the 5th milennium BCE.
The correct chronology for Neolithic, Calcolithic and Early Bronze in Thrace is:
-- Sugaar 01:32, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Sugaar, I have no idea who wrote that material in this article. This article has been in need of a rewrite for years now, but I'm too lazy to undertake it. Feel free to correct the text. I've corrected bits of it here & there, such as the claim of Thracians ruling the Balkans in the Neolithic. Alexander 007 09:52, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Hxseek ( talk) 02:58, 20 January 2008 (UTC)==Thracians== "Thracians" - who made up this term? I guess it comes from the Roman province, there are no true evidences to call them Thracians. They were actually Bulgarians,... and they are still there... -- Shisharki 05:28, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
How do you know that? What do you know about the so-called Thracian language??? Whatever the historians tell you? Wrong method for learning history... - Shisharki
I don't accept any hsitorical thesis as true unless it is supported by any evidences, as most of the people. The lack of evidences means manipulation of the facts... Shisharki
probably you have no idea about the Greeks and their origin.Can you provide any source for your opinion or it is just another fallacy?
I think it is far-fetched to say that modern GReeks are mostly slav, but certainly a fair degree of Slavic intermixing occurred. Not only when the slavs first arrived, they assimilated Greeks then became linguistically re-Hellenized. This continued all the way until WWII when Slavophone greeks were Hellenized by the government. Of course, this may not be accepted by Greeks becuase it subtracts from the Ancient-modern greek continuity theory. Hxseek ( talk) 02:58, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
No, actually it doesn't. I happen to beleive in this continuity between ancient and modern Greeks but not in genetic terms, as you seem to imply, only fools think in that way (as if there wasn't any mixing with other peoples between 1600bc and 400 ad for example, but nobody disputes the continuity there) , but in cultural respects and mainly the language. Do not underestimate the power of the language common to ancient and modern Greeks. Nefeligeretis ( talk) 17:10, 31 January 2008 (UTC)nefeligeretis]
This site from Texas showing Thracian distribution: 1)probably does not represent Thracian distribution at any one time 2) assumes (though it's probably a correct assumption) that the Dacians can be considered Thracians 100% 3) the distribution in Hungary looks exaggerated, at least for most periods of history; much of Hungary was Celtic/Illyrian land in ancient times. Alexander 007 21:40, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
These are just speculations: It is almost clear that the Thracians and Greeks were from different branches of the PIE tree: the Thracians spoke a Satem language, while the Greeks speak a Centum language: the Greeks came from the western side of the Balkans, while the Thracians from the eastern side. See this image.
Also, the phrasing is based on weasel words: "some have speculated". If there was some authority in this field, then yes, we should write about it, but random speculations at a conference are not notable. bogdan 14:02, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Is the etymology of the name Thracian traced to some *PIE root? -- Kupirijo 06:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
how can they be related to myceneaneas (sorry wrong spelling) if they were woudlint they have a simmilar culture but thracians and myceneaneas have a WAY diffrent culture and thracians show a culture simmilar to near eastern/anotolian people more then any people on earth.there dress,look.THRACIANS practiced sacriface of humans wich was only present in NATIVE peoples of near east or south eastern europe.thracians belonged to the eastern med race while greeks/myceneans belong to the west med race.
What's the basis for claiming that Europa is of Thracian origin? Kaicarver 13:48, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
'''PHYSICAL characteristics of the Thracians'''
Some one here keeps trying to pass the Thracians as fair people. Actually all ancient accounts from the Illyrians, Macedons and Greeks describe them as people with dark hair and dark eyes. Nearly all people shown in Thracian tombs (within paintings and mosaics) show this to be true. This is also been the case from excavated Thracian remains where the melanin pigment in the hair and eyes is present in high concentrations. From this evidence we know they mostly had black hair and very brown eyes. All this is referenced in various anthropological books and academic peer reviewed articles. The person who tries to pass them off as fair likely has some sort of racist based inferiority complex and is looking for an ancient civilization of "fair" people to make-up that which he/she feels is missing from the history books. This is unfortunate for you! Next time you use Xenophanes, you should actually reference him from academic material as he actually never described Thracians as fair (meaning blond and blue eyed). Also this person says they showed clear similarities to Iranic peoples, yet that goes right against his/her argument that they were fair, as the Iranic peoples were all noted for their dark features. I'm not talking about some German pseudo-historians in the late 19th - mid 20th century who wanted to take credit for the history of the Ayans by trying to pass them off as fair. Anyone who wants to look at the anthropological and archeological studies will see just how dark they were. Do the research! They were in fact no different from the majority of Iranic peoples today. Anyhow, I am Alexander Alexiev and I am a physical anthropologist. To all other Wikipedians, I hope you truly follow the rules of referencing your statements in academic material and that you will keep unqualified statements from ever coming to the fore on this page again.
>> The Iranic people are not dark!! Are you blind? Go on the net and see some pictures of Iranians (not Arabs in Iran) and look at some of the Iranian models and news personalities on CNN( from a while ago). You can clearly see that they are very white and as light as Europeans. As a matter of fact, some of the models, if not all, can clearly pass as European! Before you say such stuff with certainty, go look at the pictures on the net and use your common sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.232.75.208 ( talk) 07:56, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
Thracian Royalty were red haired and blue eyed. They painted them as such and were well known for their red hair and blue eyes in all historical accounts. DNA evidence proves this fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.22.213 ( talk) 14:24, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
A. Alexiev PhD - Physical Anthropology (U. Sofia)
Analysis of Thracian remains confirms high concentrations of melanin in upper derma, hair as well as a solid melanin layer covering the collagen present in the iris, in most cases creating a complete melanin infused layer between the iris and the aqueous humour. This is my area of expertise, and I can tell you are not an expert in Tracology nor in the anthropology. In fact most of your statements are not backed up by any sort of academic references so I suggest you start reading Bulgarian materials to gain some knowledge on the matter. If you place once more the kind of non academic information within this article again I will present the entire edit history and all academic evidence to those Wikipedians that do have authority. I will then have them reference everything to anthropological research findings regarding Thracian physical characteristics and I will do my best to have you disciplined for your non referenced racial theories. Please do motivate me to do so, I will be more than happy to have the excuse...
omg i have met a person that really khows how it is i have been studying the thracians for 3 years now and i have found so much evedince from murals the cheekbone shape and many evedince that they were dark feautered,not only did they have black hair and dark eyes they also had brownish tannish skin and they also had a sligtly asiatic skull differing from the european one kinda like a native american skull but not that pure.and i can explain fair haired people in thracian socicity they were the invading cimmerians(east celts)that moved tru thrace up the carpathian mountains and went west.some of the cimmerians intermixed with the thracians and lef there fair hair traits thats why people lie and say that they are related wich they are not.but the cimmerians are the same people that live in the cacasian mountains today the fair haired people in the caucausus are cimmerians or celts.and i also dissagre with the indo european theory im pretty sure that thracians dint have indo european languge because they did arive in thrace before anyone else the indo europeans came i dotn khow how many years after them how do i khow thise??? because the thracian skeleton the found outdates any skeleton or artifact found in europe.i dont khow were the thracians came from but im sure they dint come form the indo european region.and todays bulgarians are slavs mixed with turks in the south and have little thracian blood because by there time the thracians were etinct and wat ever remained of there ansestors and its ponunced the gatae not the gothi like that guy up there said the gothi were a germanic tribe that radided the dunubian and provice of dacia.but thats not the point the gatae had some ansestors left wich lived by the black sea in todays romania and thats were u get dark haired dark skinned and dark eyed romanians because real romanians are dark fetured to isent that a a clue to that thracians were having lived int that area?i have been in romania 3 times and u can always they the mixed people there by u can see the white romanians wich i belive came from slavs,hungarians,and germanic peoples.and u can see the real romanians wich are dark haired dark skinned and dark eyed wich i belive came from dacians or another tribe of thracians.bulgarians also have the same thing they havwe a white class and a dark class of people.and also thatred haired women in the portraite artifact is not thracian orgin its more like byzantine because they found the coin of konstantin the great in there.so before u post something make sure its not like 1000 years off and belongs to the peopel u posted about.
Then why were all the royals red heads with blue eyes? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.22.213 ( talk) 14:41, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
Bulgarians actually have more Thracian DNA than Slavic and Bulgar which is proven in scientific studies that compares Bulgarian DNA with the people buried in the Bulgarian lands from thousands and thousands of years ago before the Bulgars and Slavs came. Most Bulgarians are olive skinned with brown or black hair and are the only people who can actually claim Thracians, Thracians were on Bulgarian land and only on Bulgarian territory was formed the only Thracian Kingdom and Bulgarians inherited the most Thracian traditions and DNA. Romanians have nothing to do with Thracians, they had something to do with Dacians but Dacians and Thracians are 2 different Balkan tribes, they were both kin people but still 2 different people and tribes. Kpromx ( talk) 17:39, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
when u were studying thracian skeleton or skull did u find any mongolian feutures?
I have not found the Thracian skulls to be similar to the mongoloid type. Also there have been some genetic studies conducted by various academics that confirm the presence of many phenotypes in the Bulgarian popuation that are associated with the Thracians. Genetic markers indicating Thracian ancestry are also found amongst the Romanians, Serbians, Macedonians and Northern Greeks. As for Bulgaria, like any other European country there are both fair and brunette people who make-up the Bulgarian ethnicity. Within a single family you can have brunettes, blondes, red haired relatives along with black, brown, blue, green or hazel eyes. In fact this is quite common and does indeed show that the modern Bulgarian nation is a composite of the dominant Thracian, Slav and Bulgar ethnic groups. It should also be made clear that modern genetic studies show the diversity of Bulgarians to be similar to that of the French, English, Italians, Germans, etc... ... "We" are all mixed regardless of our ethnic background and/or what our physical characterisics are, be them dominant or recessive. In general inter-ethnic mixing tends to strengthen a population over extended periods of time by eliminating 'faulty' genes that cause genetic disorders, which consequently increases the composite group's survivability.
Getting back to the Thracians, my research has led me to see them as having been physically similar to the ancient Greeks and Romans. Generally they can be conceptualized as Southern Europeans and/or Mediterranean Europeans.
[['[[Greeks, North Greeks, Macedonians]']]
I keep seeing and I quote "..north Greeks, Macedonians,.." as if Macedonians and North Greeks are something separate. I know there is a silly dispute on whether the Macedonians were Greeks but most serious historians accept that they were Greek and spoke a Greek dialect. So, if the probability that the Macedonians were Greek is 80-90% at least it should not be differentiated in the texts. There are views that some people come from Aliens, that doesn't mean that we have to add that whenever we talk about these people. Seriously, I am a Macedonian and deeply offended when I see this as Alexander (actually Alexandros) was the first power figure who managed (by force) to unite us. Thank you.[[[User:Nefeligeretis|Nefeligeretis]] ( talk)Nefeligeretis] —Preceding comment was added at 17:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
i taught u said that thracians looked like iranic people?iranic people are much more darker then roman or greek???? >>I am an ethnic English person who knows quite a bit of European and thus Bulgarian history and would like to say: what, are you serious??! The Macedonians are pure Bulgarians, read some history before you say such nonsense, please. One of Asparuh's brothers settled in present day Macedonia, along with thousands of Bulgars. Ancient Macedonians and present day Macedonians are nothing alike, read more W!ikipedia. Also the Macedonians's culture is basically the same as Bulgarian culture. The Macedonian language is a dialect of Bulgarian, it is almost basically the same!! Use your common sense here to see that the Macedonians and Bulgarians are the same people, ethnically, they also look the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.232.75.208 ( talk) 07:52, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
how about iranic europeans could u call em that?
http://www.inrne.bas.bg/Varna2005/sights/varna-3.jpg .... anceint thracian skeleton. but do thracians have hight cheekbones? cuz these skeleton shows these guy with a hight cheek bones and a flat face.
i agree with alexeiv on everything exept when he said the chariteristic traits of thracians were simmilar to greek and roman.the characteristics of thracians were more like todays most iranic peoples.thracians were alot darker then greeks or romans.juging from the murals.and juging from alexievs finds about the upper derma. >> Is your intelligence impaired??? Thracians weren't dark, please use your common sense, before saying such nonsense. None of the research and studies on Thracians ever concluded that they were dark!
The Greeks and Latins were also dark, similar to Thracians, Illyrians, Macedonians and other S.E. and/or Balkan populations... There aren't many physical differences between these ethnic groups. Anthropological findings conducted on Greeks and Latin "Italian" Romans all shows the same amount of melanin (within xy range) concentrations in derma as modern day Southern Italians. If you are interested in this topic you can easily obtain ancient mosaics and paintings from ancient Roman and/or Greek artists by looking up the subject matter on the internet. (Note: Please search through univesity library websites for reliable information!) If anyone is iterested I can also send you academic materials such as peer reviewed articles that are entirely focused on this subject. Finally, one of the most famous such mosaics is the one depicting Alexander the Great "of Macedon" during a battle with Darius III of Persia. This is the oldest portrait of Alexander and it precisely shows the very same physical features noted amongst the Southern European populations past and present.(ie: high-bridge nasal structure, dark eyes, brown to black hair, etc...) It also shows what the true Aryans (Iranic peoples) looked like in ancient time and how they still look today. Here's a link to this particular mosaic in its entirety:
Here's the close-up of Alexander: http://www.utexas.edu/courses/introtogreece/lect33/cAlexanderMosaic2.jpg
Here's a close-up of Darius III: http://www.shc.ed.ac.uk/classics/undergraduate/art/images/DariusIII.jpg
. u said they tested to see if greeks had relations with romans but have they ever tested thracians and greek toghter to see if they had anything else simmilar then just the color of there hair and eyes.? ...but i want to khow about the thracians remains u examenied...all i khow is that u khow that hair and eyes were dark and it had dark complexion but i allready khew that from the start because i read about the women that they found. but they slso suggested that the thracians were threre before the indo european arival meaning that they had a way difrent appearance then any eruopean.again i need to nhow msot of the facts about the skeleton u exameind or seen get examend i need to khow aobut the derma the eye color how u khow and the skull shape.like the cheek bones and the jaw of it.and that u propose that it had a relation ship with the south balkan populations wat gene did u find that moved u to that conclusion.i am not arguing on if greeks or latins were dark becuse i lived by greece and i seen many greek people the majority of greeks were dark so i khow were ur comming from.im not argueing whos dark or not im arguing wat peopel u said they were related to. thracian culture such as way of dress and pottey show that they were closley related to peopel of near east rahter then people of europe wich would show same genes because most people in near east are dark eyed and dark complexion and are also Mediterraneans.but there is a diffence the people of near east have a very iranian/assyrian type people the same way the thracians looked is iranian type rahter then regular south europeans wich do not have a limited number of (bronw haired people) meaning that the consetration of pegments is much stronger in near eastern people not only because of the closeness of the sun but becasue of there ansestors.im sure about 99.9 percent that thracians looke more iranic then south european sieeing as they were the only people in europe to be related to iranic/near eastern peoples.not saying they were related to persians but to other near eastern people living in those areas.
http://aycu24.webshots.com/image/40103/2003824465129417098_rs.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by GaiusCrastinus ( talk • contribs) 12:55, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I will remove Greek and Latin name rom the intro, as it misleads that the Thracians were Greeks Pensionero ( talk 14:53, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
http://www.ancient-bulgaria.com/images/Thracian_something.jpg
http://www.ancient-bulgaria.com/images/Thracian_horseman_on_hunt.jpg
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/e/e5/400px-Aleksandrovo_kurgan.jpg
http://archeologia.bourgas.org/en/images/aleksandrovo.jpg
The exact quote from Xenophanes goes "The Ethiopians say that their gods are flat-nosed and black skinned, while the Thracians say that theirs have blue eyes and red hair. Yet if cattle or horses or lions had hands and could draw and sculpt like men, then the horses would draw their gods Like horses, and cattle like cattle, and each would shape the body of Gods in the likeness of each kind, of their own." Now he says that the Thracians have red hair and blue eyes and in such a way too mark it as common as the black skin of Ethiopians. This can't be completely dismissed surely? Either he was lying to his audience who would have seen straight through him being well acquainted with the appearance of Thracians, or the Thracians worshiped red headed gods, which again doesn't make sense as the point Xenophanes is making is that we make gods to look like ourselves. The last explanation is that there were a fair number of red haired blue eyed Thracians. umm no thracians worshiped dark haired dark eyes gods u see that guy with the axe??that was there most supreme god which means they made him in there own image.they could not see stratigh tru his lie because most greeks have never seen thracians.and another wrongess of thise theory is that ethiopians are the most unsnubed nosed people of the aficans alot of ethiopians are straith nosed showing semetic simmilarity.xenopahnes was probably mislead about the dsicreptions of thracian gods like orpheus,dionsysus,ares wich were corupted by greek histortorians who were acelly PHILOSOPHERS the thracians always decipted in ancient greek art as being dark haired and eyed.and the thracian murals wich where done by thr thracians decept them as dark haired and eyed people with a browned haired minority.but still with a dark/olive skinned compleixion.how about we let the ACTUAL THRACIANS DECIDE WHAT THEY LOOKED LIKE INSTEAD OF A POET/PHILOSOPHER.and also the findiand of academic research on thracians wich show them to have hight consetrations of millinia in upper derma and around iris area wich means they were dark complexiod with dark eyes.with thise evidence from both ancient and modern information we can surly dismiss thise misleading.also if they had a large ammount of red haired people herodoctus would have surley noted on that yet another point wich proves the idea of fair thracians as a lie.thracians surley looked like the hunter murals that THEY have drawn what u think they drew the wrong people???most thracians were accely aboriginal people of southern europe and anotolia.
ya but we do have good scientific evedince because anthropologist have tested thracian remains and have found them to have hight malanin in both iris and upper derma that means that thracians were mostly black haired and dark eyed
the murals just sopport thise ansewere and the idea of fair thracians is almsot not sopported by anythign but that passsage from Xenophanes and since u allready confiremed that greeks used difffrent pigment for women and man but in reallity it was not thise way.
i have allready given an explanation why thise philosopher Xenophanes would say that is because many GODS that were considered thracian gods were corupted by greeks and turned into there own version and since greeks taught that ALL northerns were read haired and blue eyed they probably made there gods look thise way.but in reallity it was not thise way because the guy with the double headed axe is god of thracians and look the way they descibed him black haired and very dark eyed with olive darkish skin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.172.119 ( talk) 20:29, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
The thracians were red haired and blue eyed as described by contemporaries. The citation of Cohen's merely asserts without evidence. I have actually read it. Heavenly horseman ( talk) 02:30, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
the vlachs were not romanized dacians the vlachs were romans and there colonists who were mostly mixed with the slavs that settled in that area it was reported by and italian historian that alot of them had particular color of eyes meaning blue or green eyes and brown hair wich proves that they were mostly mixed with slavs who settled there.and vlachs were not the ansestors of all romanians they were the ansestors of south romanians the provonice wallachia that is were the wlachs,vlachs lived and ansestors are only in that area not of all present day romanians there were other pricipalites and all of them had diffrent people living there like moldovia and transalvania they were diffrent people who spoke a common languge because of the geographical region.so please do not place vlachs as ansestors of romanians or even more wrong romanized dacians the vlachs were one of the people and belonged to the south pricipality so place vlachs as people of the wallachian pricipalaty not of all romanians and deffinetly not of romanized dacians. Why diferent people speak same language? I was ther a Romanian empire under Asanov brothers, who forced them to speak same language? The romans retreat somewere in 3rd century at south of danube, and slaves comes in 5 century, If in the north of the danube the latin was mixed with dacian, carpian, whatever language, how from the mix of slavic and latin resulted the same language? what is the name of that famous italian hystorian? What is very clear is that, concerning the origin of romanians, when hungarian nationalist hystorians and bulgarian nationalist hystorinas will agree abuout the subject, will be very clear that romanians came somewere around XIX century from outerspace, carried out by aliens, till they agree still, nobody will know for sure the origin of the vlachs, still I belive that are some sources who can make an objective opinion. Personaly i belive that all romanians are the ancestors of the modern bulgarians, why bulgatrians speak a diferent language? Is there is a simple answer: because of the geographical region.lol really i can see u dont khow history WHILE THE ROMANS THEMSELVES REATREDED FROM DACIA THE COLONISTS FROM ALL OVER THE EMPIRE WHO SPOKE "LATIN" STILL CONTUNUED TO COLONIZE DACIA VLACHS NOR ALOT OF ROMANIANS DONT LOOK LIEK THRACIANS AT ALL THRACIANS HAD BLACK HAIR AND "VERY" BROWN EYES AND OLIVE SKIN.MOST OF VLACHS WERE BROWN HAIRED AND BROWN EYED WICH SHOWS THEY WERE VERY MIXED PEOPLE.HAZEL ECT.WHY WOULD THRACIANS SPEAK LATIN LANGUGE IF THEY WERENT OVER POPULATED WHY WOULD THRACIANS IN BULGARIA SPEAK SLAVIC IF THEY WERE OVER POPULATED???THE ANSWERE IS SIMPLE IN ROMANI AND BULGARIA THERE ARE ONLY INDUVIDULAS OR PHENOTYPES WHO ARE DECEDENTS OF THRACIANS THOSE PHENOTYPES SHOULD be "most" with black hair dark eyes and olive skin.there is no simple answeres for thise ae u saying that history is not complecated at all??in bulgaria it is diffrent story because the romans that killed em of or ASSIMILATED THEM WERE THE BYZANTIUM ROMANS. Some sorce says that in Dacian wars 50.000 dacian were killed or send in slavery, others say that even in Roman times in areas of what was Bizantine empires people speak greek language. There is no simple answers if you want to demonstrate tahat the ancestors from Balkans were ethnically pure. Because I belkive that that population from this area coexisted without having this problem, Roman colonist with gots, and slavs, Bulgars and cumans and pecenegs, or vlachs an bulgars. And so the historians don't have the concept of etnicity, for this this reason some bisantine historians name Hungarians daci :)lol really u khow why byzantine historians named hungarians daci because they lived in dacian lands not becasue they looked same and i want to khow where u got the source where byzantines called hungarians daci plz listm website or academic inforamtion.and what u said is exactylly my point the balkans is as mixed as any other region in europe u cant really say that any one is decedents of any one because of the divercity of people.but the thracians on the other hand where mostly thracian ehtnic group and people who are decedetns of them are black haired and dark eyd and OLIVE skinned as thracians were a mix of ABORIGINALS and indo european invaders but most of the thracians still looked more aboriginal then indo european with slitghly curled hair some had very stratigh hair.so my point is vlachs could not have been decedents of dacians because first they dint look like them and second the vlachs spoke a LATIN LANGUGE.wich proves indepented roman colonists still settled the lands from the west.I'll came back with references ( i'm not quite sure if there was Ana Comnena). Still the Romanian Museum of Cluj present Tracians like 1.50 m, red hair and very strog features, nor caucazian not aborigenal :) But this all isuue can be solved as hu8ngarian Ministry of health tried : they recover adn form two cuman necropolis, and comared adn with Hungarian people and with some diferent people from europe. Result ? Not quite godd from political stand. The only result published is that the Cumanas share agreat diversity of genes, lol. We can do same thing with thracians ... Still if you say that vlachs were not tracians/dacian why not to say that they were latinised gots, the gots were here, they go is hispania, and there after the gots invasion is a latin people, is the same probability, is an hypotesis not a fact :) And by the way can you tell where the frygian origin of the tracians originate, I've encounter this in a hystory book?ok while all anthopologists and thracian murals present them with black hair dark eyes and olive skin ey i think the sinetists are lieng lol =D amazing how much u want to do to lie.they have found thracians tablets and there langue thas not at all match frygian one.they had there own langue branch or group.and stop confusing aboriginal with the australian aboriginals im talking about the thracian aboriginals wich had there own eastern race.i dont care what some musem presetns them as i seen in america musem present native americans with brith red hair so lol why would i care at all what some one made out of a plastic dummy???if u base ur results on dummys it shows how much of a dummy u are i base my results ON ATCUAL THRACIANS MURALS AND ACADEMIC REASECH AND ALL SHOW THRACIANS TO BE BLACK HAIRED PEOPLE WITH DARK EYES AND "olive" skin color.why are u bringing cumans into thise conversation i dont care who they were im talking about thracians and ur tryign to state false facts about them.lol so in ur oppinion vlachs were thracians lol???evfen toguth they dint look liekt them and the very first quetion to u is why would a tribal people like thracians adopt a latin languge if they werent over populated by invaders or colonists???why do u think that a whole nation would learn latin from 3000 people???but again u can belive in thise plastic dummy in the musem to fill the missing pages of history jsut as alixeiv said rather then archeological finds or the fact that most thracians thracians were black haired dark eyed and olive skinned juging on the malanin in upper derma.ye ok plastic dummy says more =D.i can see that u are hungarian tough well i want u to khow that im not a natinolists because most bulgarians or romanians are not decedents of thracians at all.i just state facts that are proved acedemicaly and by arheological finds while ur stating stuff like plasitc dummys in musems andnot acceul accedemic reaserch of the skull i dont need any dna or anythign all i need is the ammmount of malanin of the skeleton and i can tell wheher what race he was.well it is same as dna test but u khwo what i mean =D and those murals up there i want to nkow ur opinion on those =D what u think thracians drew the wrong people???and they show those people with lightly curled hair like other thracian arts cofirm just go to external links on thise article u will see.so i dont get ur point in ur opinion thracians drew the wrong people and they spoke latin and not thracian lol i think not =D espicialy when academic proff proves thise to be right and all the proff u got is a plastic dummy in a musem =D same thing as they showed attila with red hair and light eyes =D and most scientist who are correct sayt hat thracians were aboriginals mixed with indo europeans or are the sicetists lieng about that to??lol but since the genes of aboriginals were more stronger msot thracians still looked like aboriginals and thise is wat an aborigianl fo southern europe looked like LIGHTLY CURLED HAIR USSUALY BLACK OR DARK DARK EYES WITH SOMEWHAT NARROW SLITS FOR EYES DARK OR VERY BROWN EYES SKIN WAS INTERMETIADTE OR OLIVE SKIN COLOR and all the phenotyopes of thracians found in romanian or bulgarian population show thise to be tru as all phenotypes show that they are black haired olive skinned and dark eyed with ANOTOLIAN facial feutures.
The museum dummyes are generaly made by antroplogists, but you can find even your melanin. By the way you know what is the semnification of the Daci for ancient greek speakers? It means SLAVES :) who cares what there name meant from greeks?? we are talking about how they looked.those dummys were not made by antopologists just as the dummys in america arent made by antopologists but by common people who study history.in the prehistoric tomb u posted what were u trying to prove with that??if those dummys were made by antopologists then it would of shown them with black ligly curled hair dark eyes and olive skin because thats what the malanin presents them to be and there murals.AND THATS ACCELY HOW THEY LOOKED.i dont get what u are trying to prove when everything has allready been proven.=D but plz do explain what u were trying to prove with the tomb picture ??
when alixeiv said there are genitic markers indicating thracian ansestry among romanians bulgarians ect he meant that some people amosgst those have a mixed thracian ansestry meaning that not many people are but they are still found amosgst those people it dosent eman that those people have decended from thracians wich can be found wronglly boht by history and science.no people have thracian ansestry they just have people amosgst them who have a mixed asnsestry.and thracians dint become hellenized in thrace them became dead by roman colonists and legions killed most of them off the ones who have not been killed fleed away.where are u getting ur historical resources??
today in iran all the way to india they have found fair people in iranic populations where do thesse people come from i want to ask ur opinion as im focused on thise subject. >> Have you no common sense and general knowledge? The Iranians are naturally Caucasian and as light as Europeans!! Go look at some Iranian models and CNN news personalities of the past not to mention the women who won Miss Germany was half Iranian, look at her, and you will see what I mean. Go to http://mywomen.blogspot.com/2006/04/persian-iran-girls.html AND YOU WILL SEE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.232.75.208 ( talk) 08:13, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
My map my map offers more info and is better looking than jigiby's jingiby's.I suggest we use only mine Megistias ( talk) 11:31, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
I originally removed the Bulgarians reference as I saw no relevance to it in the context was missing and I didn't see what Bulgarians had to do with a section discussing the ethnic type of ancient Thracians. I've cleared up the context in another way now. Monshuai, I do not appreciate your continued accusation of vandalism (as in the edit history), or any other accusations. I make my edits in good faith. Your continued implications that I do not are very wearying. Martijn Faassen ( talk) 00:56, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
>> Are you insane, the Bulgarians ARE DESCENDED FROM THE THRACIANS!! DO you know absolutely nothing about history. Im asking you, please learn more history before you say such senseless and uneducated comments. I cant believe it!!! The Bulgarians clearly have something to do with this section, as they are the carriers of Thracian genes!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.232.75.208 ( talk) 08:16, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
u are the real vandalist thise is a talk board where peopel bring theories in but u delete there therieos becuase u think ur so smart that u are the only one right when im sure u have no evedeince to soppurt or to deny anythign posted on here the mural was proff because if they dint draw the people rightly why did they draw the horse right???the dog??and why does the mural painting fall in with the proof that modern anthropologist that examiened thracian remains malanin ammount fall togther that they were infact as dark as they drew themselves in the mural.that is poof where is ur proof? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.19.116.191 ( talk) 16:34, 12 January 2008 (UTC) and also to the guy saying that romanians and bulgarians are MAINLY OF THRACIAN DECENT and not that the thracians MADE A BIG IMPACT ON THOSE POPULATIONS where is ur proff i read the deinekes page and it says that the thracians only contributed to those populations.
Thracians were not dark and they were not Mediterraneans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.99.217.117 ( talk) 21:53, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Hey I have read this discussion page and the thracian main page and it has a bit of nonsence. This is because it states that thracians are dark and mediterranean and also like the modern day iranians. That is full of rubbish. Thracians were like cimmerians and were fair in complexion. Also there is reference about thracians being related to the Swedes and a few other Scandinavians. Another source considers that the Swedish ancestors were Thracians. Thracians numbered second in population after the Indians in the ancient days and they had scattered and settled in many places in central and northern Europe. Albanians, Romanians, Bulgarians and some western Balkan states are considered of having the most Thracian in them and none of these populations are dark and like Iranians. Also other central europeans state that they have Thracian ancestry. No Iranians or other western Asiatic/middle eastern countries have Thracian ancestry because they are mostly of Arab, Turkic and a few Anatolian ancestry. Xenophane's quote even says that Thracians are light with red hair. Even in films and other artistic pictures show Thracians as having Western characteristics. I have read some sources about its archaeology and considers them as also having European characteristics similar to the Nordics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by D Yankov ( talk • contribs) 20:40, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
it is proven when you try to say something smart ignorant people always turn to offending the person trying to say something thise is the cause of jealosy or hate for no appert reason one thing i do agree on is that no one has ever seen a thracian with their own two eyes but every one is trying to build some illusion that will make them feel confortable with the thracians appearance my answere is thise people still dissagree on people appearances today on even people they seen.so how can thise be so simple??
NO ACTUALLY YOU DON'T KNOW BECAUSE I AM FROM BULGARIA AND MANY BULGARIANS ARE LIGHT COMPLEXION. THE DARK ONES ARE THE GYPSIES AND THIS IS THE TRUTH. —Preceding unsigned comment added by D Yankov ( talk • contribs) 20:21, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
The section named "Thracian universe" really badly needs cleaned up.
Lines like: "Working on this project gave me the opportunity to travel again across my beautiful country viewing it from an entirely new perspective" are totally inappropriate for an encyclopedic entry!!
I think the entire section should be removed, it is written extremely poorly and is not coherent or topical. I don't see what Ivo Hadjimishev's "ultimate pleasures" have to do with the article. This isn't a human interest story.
72.38.147.166 ( talk) 05:06, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Total garbage. I've removed it all. Good call. -- Tsourkpk ( talk) 05:18, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
THE CHARACTERISTIC SECTION IS ALL WRONG. THRACIANS WERE NOT MEDITERRANEANS AND WERE NOT DARK! —Preceding unsigned comment added by D Yankov ( talk • contribs) 20:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Both ideas are conjecture. It would make sense that given their proximity to Greece, they'd look similar to Greeks, but we have little hard evidence Hxseek ( talk) 08:59, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
-- Tueday Dining In Room ( talk) 11:45, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
I took the liberty of cleaning and organizing the article. It was frankly in a disorganized state for many months and no one seemed interested in remedying this basic problem.
I know it is preferable for many of you (including myself) to argue and engage in debates. However, all I ask is that all of you please try to maintain the article's current state as best as possible. Thank you and have a nice day. Deucalionite ( talk) 20:47, 18 June 2008 (UT
care to provide your sources that say they DID look like greeks??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.19.118.114 ( talk) 21:54, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Why are people removing referenced info that shows the Thracians had a Mediterranean appearance and were indeed relatively dark? These facts have already been discussed by the scientific community and are also evident in the Thracian murals. Thracians are depicted as having dark hair and dark eyes. Furthermore, the only mural in which a light person is shown is actually depicting a servant. There are many academic references that show that people in Southern Europe at the time described slaves as being light haired and light eyed. These references can also be placed in the article if people keep writing nonsense about the Thracians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Monshuai ( talk • contribs) 03:48, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
Summary:
1) Evidence from physical anthropological studies determined that Thracians had a Southern European appearance and belonged to the Aegean/Pontic anthropologic type.
2) Evidence from Thracian murals confirms the Southern European appearance (dark hair and eyes).
3) Genetic tests show that the modern Balkan populations are genetically closer to Thracians than any other populations. The people of the Balkans also generaly have a Southern European appearance and those who have relatively light features usually have a minority of recessive traits brought into the Balkans by the Goth, Celt and Slav invasions. -- Monshuai ( talk) 03:58, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
I am going to readd scientific DNA-study, which was removed without reason. Jingby ( talk) 16:35, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
This Orpheus issue ("Bulgarian tourist board uses Orpheus. Greek patriots outraged") is so extremely trite that I doubt it should be mentioned on a nationalism article, let alone the Orpheus article. It most certainly has no place in our article on the Thracians. Illyrianism is a big thing in both Croatia and Albania. If you can document something similar for Bulgaria, that would be fine. -- dab (𒁳) 18:10, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
This article is about the Thracians, not about Orpheus or about Bulgarian nationalism. By the way the Ancient Greeks did not have close relationship to the Thracians. Jingby ( talk) 05:23, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Read at first The Fallmerayer's thesis, chears! Jingby ( talk) 09:58, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
the relation of the Thracians to the Ancient Greeks is very much within the scope of this article. Can we just please try to discuss it on a scholarly level, as opposed to, you know, waste time with the Bulgarian tourist office and internet nationalism? -- dab (𒁳) 10:15, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Here are my grounds for removing the section outright:
Here's an in-depth revision of the claims in the section and their referencing:
Bonus:
I hope I have managed to prove that Megistias is using out-of-context quotes by low-reliability sources, alongisde mostly irrelevant academic material that has little to do with his actual claims, to push an (unreferenced!) point of view. To put it short, he basis his entire stand that Bulgarian nationalism claims Thracians were Bulgarians on a single newspaper quote by a single archaeologist. I also hope you'll excuse my colour-coding and style, no offence meant. Todor → Bozhinov 19:18, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Bulgarian nationalism interprets anything Thracian as Bulgarian. [1] During the 2000s, Bulgarian archeologists led by Nikolay Ovcharov declared that they had discovered the Tomb of Orpheus in Bulgaria [2] despite the fact that Orpheus was a mythological figure and that the Tomb of Orpheus was known since antiquity to be found close to Olympus in Libethra. [3] [4] Orpheus was used as a poster face for Bulgarian tourism [5] even after issues had been raised by Greece. [6] The Bulgarian side rejected the fact that Orpheus lived in mostly close to Olympus [7] [8] in a place called Pimpleia and claimed that "Bulgaria was the Land of Orpheus". The myth's Hellenic origin was rejected [9] it was claimed that "Orpheus lived in Bulgaria", despite the fact that the myth is clearly Ancient Greek [10] [11] [12] and that Thracian does not equate Bulgarian. The Greek response, [13] expressed by Alexandra Christopoulou of the Athens National Archaeological Museum, was as follows: "Nations claim Greek heroes all the time. It happened with Alexander the Great and now with Orpheus. Bulgaria did not even exist at the time." Nikolai Ovcharov claimed that Orpheus was of Bulgarian origin somehow equating Thracians with Bulgarians. [14] Megistias ( talk) 19:27, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
That is absolutely not serious. There is much bigger and important controversy considering Alexander of Macedon, the Ancient Macedons and the Ancient Kingdom of Macedon, where both the Rep. of Macedonia and Greece are seriously involved in political discussion but in none of these articles is even mentioned about the ridiculous Macedonian claim, supported officially by their government and society and you want to include such a section for the Thracians having in mind that the Bulgarian state, historians, society and public opinion does not consider the Thracian being Bulgarians. Neither do the nationalists. Obviously the Thracians are our far ancestors (only because they inhabited the Bulgarian lands, not because they took part in the process of formation of the Bulgarian people in 9th century) and have their little share in the modern Bulgarian blood but that is the same for the Ancient Greece and modern Greece. It has almost nothing to do with your modern country. -- Gligan ( talk) 10:34, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
The Bulgarian government does not consider the Thracians for Bulgarians. It has never considered that and will never consider it. Furthermore, I have never heard even Ovharov saying that the Thracians were Bulgarians. Some people might claim that Orpheus was a Thracian and lived in the Rhodopes but no one says he was a Bulgarian. That is laughable.
Bulgarian nationalism can't have strong connection with the Thracian because we have an exact date of the creation of our state, 681, and the nationalists might say that were the greatest, the best, the most civilized and so on but only after that year. And if they are saying nonsense about earlier years (they are in fact), it would be linked with the Bulgars. -- Gligan ( talk) 12:15, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Overall, I believe I have further proven that the Megistias' goal in including this section is not to contribute to the encyclopedia, but to promote a national point of view. Thus, I'm removing the section and I honestly expect not to see it again in a similar incarnation. I'm monitoring the development of this article. Todor → Bozhinov 20:56, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
This is pretty one-sided. Todor is largely correct: the simple fact is that this material is {{ offtopic}} at an article on the ancient tribe, and though it might have some relevance at a Bulgarian nationalism article - altough it would probably need better sourcing than it has - Megistias was being disruptive for trying to edit-war it in here. For which he has been blocked. Everyone can move along until next time. Moreschi ( talk) 00:01, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
References
The section regarding Thracian religion contains the following sentence fragment:
Many mythical figures, such as the god Dionysus which the Greek refounded from the Thracian god Sabazios.
I can't figure out what its intent is exactly, or I'd make the edit myself. It seems to say that Thrace had a lot of gods who were adopted into the pantheons of other cultures, or it could just mean that those deities are better known by their Greek counterparts, or something.
Some expert will have to make the change. Rangergordon ( talk) 03:31, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
I've just completed a cleanup of unsourced and dubious material, and polished up the style. Dominus Vobisdu ( talk) 01:41, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
http://soltdm.com/langtdm/phon/palatala_e.htm I don't think so. Reaper7 ( talk) 22:54, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
The source was used to support the following statement:
Olteanu's statement is very weak. Notice the words "appears to". It's also a very extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary sourcing.
It would take a VERY strong RECENT source to back up Olteanu's suggestion. Kretschmer and Mihailov are probably not going to be enough.
There is also the question of notability. Has Olteanu's suggestion stimulated discussion and research in the scholarly community? What proof is there of that (cites in papers published in peer-revewed journals, preferably non-Romanian ones)? Dominus Vobisdu ( talk) 17:00, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
I found these Thracian related pictures on Flickr. I think they could be a great addition to this and related articles.-- Codrin.B ( talk) 03:52, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
PLEASE I WANT PROOF OF THIS AND NOT SOME FAIRY TALES FROM A GREEK WRITER I WANT "PHYSICAL" DNA PROOF THAT THEY WERE BLUE EYED AND RED HAIRED... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.185.11.18 ( talk) 07:08, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
Look, I'm from Bulgaria and I've seen thousands of people, maybe tens of thousands, and not once have I personally seen a natural redhead, not once. The closest you can get is auburn hair in some children and even that's incredibly rare. As a whole red hair is certainly not present over 1% as is the case in virtually all of Southeastern Europe and the Balkans. Red hair has just never been a common feature here, it's so atypical that some people don't even know of its existence, seriously! And keep in mind that most Bulgarians do descend directly from Thracians. Here it's also generally accepted that the Thracians were indeed darker featured. The fair hair and blue eyes of some Bulgarians today come mostly from the Slavs and even now such features are still a modest minority.
The real problem here is that people don't listen to science. I doubt that most of these ancient writers have even been to Thrace, let alone spent time on empiric anthropological studies. It's pretty obvious that these sources refer to lumped stereotypes of all northerners at the time. It may also be a case of relativity as even today some Greeks refer to medium and light brown hair as 'blond' because its lighter than what they're used to see. So yeah, I brought back some modern scientific and reliable sources... I'll let someone else deal with the ancient writers(as wikipedia has high tolerance for irrationality it seems)... it might still serve some purpose as a historic curiosity perhaps but certainly nothing to be taken seriously. 94.156.40.82 ( talk) 13:13, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
Being as blue eyes and fair hair are recessive genes, its quite plausible a population with these genes could have become swamped by darker genes through hybridization and/or moved on elsewhere. There were many migrations in the remote past you know. Til Eulenspiegel ( talk) 13:28, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
If blue eyes and fair hair were recessive in the true sense of the meaning then logic dictates that they would have vanished a long time ago. The myth that blond hair and blue eyes are about to disappear used to be a hoax, you know. Also, the largest migration after the Thracians was that of the Slavs who were actually lighter and not darker featured than the Thracians. If you look at depictions made by the Thracians themselves you can find that they were not atypical Southern Europeans. 94.156.40.82 ( talk) 13:50, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
Logic doesn't dictate that fair genes would have become extinct long ago, else there would be no recessive genes anywhere in the world. Logic dictates that there are serious limiting factors to the rate at which recessive genes can disappear locally or globally. Til Eulenspiegel ( talk) 14:06, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
Then how do you suppose that recessive traits such as blond hair have become and remain a majority in Scandinavia or light eyes in all of Northern Europe after hundreds of generations of intermixing with dark(dominant) genes since pre-history? 94.156.40.82 ( talk) 14:48, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
No wonder you are confused, almost all Bulgarians are not Thrakian and yes it is spelled that way. Rufus, or 'red-hairs' were specifically Kelts not Thrakian, anyway there are Greeks with red hair and probably Bulgarians. No one actually reads word for word, red hair was rare and unique in the history. "Thracians" would be called Greeks today and so would Trojans, and all of the Europeans in the east were Byzantine and probably mixed a little through marriage later anyway. There is a difference between Classical Greeks and Non-Classical Greeks. Bulgarians are a mixed Slavic tribe, you do know that don't you? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.252.6.62 ( talk) 12:29, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
They were red haired and blue eyed as described by contemporaries. If anyone should be doubted it is the random modern assertions. One should not forget that the Bulgars became Bulgarian by the invasion of an Asiatic people. Formerly, the region of Bulgaria was even Germanic for a time i.e., had inhabitants with blond hair and blue eyes Heavenly horseman ( talk) 02:33, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
"One should not forget that the Bulgars became Bulgarian by the invasion of an Asiatic people." Only one of many such invasions, I might add, over millennia Heavenly horseman ( talk) 02:34, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
I have several academic degrees and I still don't know what this sentence means. "Scarcely attested"? Translation, please? 69.125.134.86 ( talk) 14:45, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
It is perfectly comprehensible Heavenly horseman ( talk) 02:35, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
Wow, some racial studies or political science course should read over this Talk page and discuss how volatile discussions over race and nationalism are, even when they involve an ANCIENT group of people that lived two millennium ago. What difference does it matter what color hair, eyes or skin people who lived in an ancient society had when there has been 2,000 years of intermarrying, migration and resettling of tribes since then? Many other cultures have moved through this geographical area since the Thracian civilization died out.
It's like Americans claiming to have Native American heritage when they had one great-great-great-great grandparent who their family says was Native American (according to family memory, of course). Only in this case, we're talking about 200 years ago, not 2000 years! 69.125.134.86 ( talk) 15:10, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
The map of the "Tracian state" is problematic. Even the source says is extended between the Strymon and the Hebrus, the map shows the kingdom extending all the way to the Haliacmon. Furthermore, the source says that it did not include the coastal strip, but the map shows that it does. It needs to be corrected, otherwise it shouldn't be in the article. Athenean ( talk) 17:12, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
The map shows the entirety of Macedonia inhabited exclusively by Thracians, which is just plain wrong. Pella and Aigai as Thracian settlements in the 5th - 3rd centuries BC? Please. There are much better maps in the article, I see no reason or need to use this one. Athenean ( talk) 07:14, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
I think the map should be modified before it can be used in the article. Athenean ( talk) 17:22, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
@Jing.: Glad you agree that the 5-3rd map is pure wp:or, since the west of Axios Thracian precense and the so-called Pella and Lysimachia Thracian settlements are simply since fictions (Chalkidiki and Sindos are not even border areas in the contested map in which Thracian precense is stretching as far as Olympus, nw Thessaly and Orestes). Alexikoua ( talk) 17:29, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
About Chalkidike & Sindos I'm ok, but the map includes much more apart from that. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:11, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
It appears that the specific map has several issues:
For the above reasons it appears clear that the specific map has multiple problematic issues. Unless someone can fix all this I can't see any excuse to keep it here. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:18, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
dia.org/wiki/File:Odrysian.gif.svg]] and get rid of the problematic one. Alexikoua ( talk) 11:53, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
There is a lot of talk about Thracian warfare but besides the picture at the top, no mention of Thracian weaponry — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sirhc789 ( talk • contribs) 20:30, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
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I am surprised to find that there is no mention in the article of tumuli or burial mounds as one of the most prominent feature of known Thracian culture. -- Bollweevil ( talk) 12:33, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
"Ancient authors described as red-haired several groups of people." This sounds like WP:NOTAFORUM "They claimed that all Slavs had red-hair, and likewise described the Iranic Scythians as red haired." Well based on archaeological surveys of ancient Slavic burials this observation rings completely true. Overwhelming majority of the bodies unearthed had red hair [1], and ancient Scythian and other Indo-European burials burials stretching all the way from Crimea to the Tarim Basin have unearthed more people with fair hair or the DNA for it than people with dark hair. I am very suspicious of Mrs. Cohen and whether or not she has an agenda in trying to historically re-engineer the Thracians as some sort of diverse race of people
BarbossaMillenia ( talk) 04:29, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
References
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Karabasmo/Karabasmos
There are many steles for heros with this name.
It matches exactly with 2 Turkic word:
Karabaş: meaning Black Head(es) Karabasma: Nightmare
Coincidence?
Link for Karabas/Karabasmo/Karabasmos
http://lupa.at/21905/photos/1 UzunbacakAdem ( talk) 16:55, 24 May 2022 (UTC) Uzunbacak Adem