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In response to a concern initiated by new editor User:Dave Stockwell, I have opened this thread to discuss recent edits to this biography. The editor has, specifically, taken issue with recently added content sourced to Scott Peterson's book Me Against My Brother for potential violation of our WP:BLP policies. That content is as follows:
The questions seem to be (a) is this content an accurate summary of content in the book, (b) is the book a WP:RS, (c) is the content WP:UNDUE? Chetsford ( talk) 04:26, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
Chetsford: Thank you for lifting my block.
Chetsford and Harrias: I enjoyed your input to the edits on Montgomery's page. In the spirit of compromise, below are my observations to the major errors-in-fact and potential libel in the existing errors, along with my recommended changes. I look forward to your rendering.
Further, I like the term casus belli. While it is not plain English, it is a military term in keeping with the spirit of the page and raises the bar for Wikipedia enthusiasts. But that's just me.
Also, I hope I am consulted before future edits are proposed to Montgomery's page.
Chetsford: FYI, the battle you know as Black Hawk Down occurred in 1993, not 1994 as I believe you inserted.
Here are my observations and recommended changes:
Lieutenant General Thomas M. Montgomery (born January 23, 1941 in Indianapolis, Indiana) is a retired US Army officer who served as the deputy commander of UNOSOM I, UNITAF, and UNOSOM II in the Somali Civil War.
Major Error in Fact. Montgomery served as deputy commander of UNOSOM II, not UNOSOM I or UNITAF.
Recommended change: Lieutenant General Thomas M. Montgomery (born January 23, 1941 in Indianapolis, Indiana) is a retired US Army officer who served as the deputy commander of UNOSOM II from 1993 to 1994.
Also, the cited source does not support the statement.
Recommended change: Delete the source or find a proper one.
He once referred to Mogadishu as the "Temple of Doom.”
The abbreviated quote contains an error-in-fact that Montgomery used the term once. The abbreviated quote portrays Montgomery’s in a negative light. The full quote: I think it was clear up front that this was a very dangerous place. Later, I always described Mogadishu as sort of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.
Recommended change: He said, “I think it was clear up front that this was a very dangerous place. Later, I always described Mogadishu as sort of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.
Also, the cited source does not support the statement.
Recommended change: Delete the source or find a proper one.
His time as Deputy Commander of the UNOSOM II mission involved his oversight of an operation that one or more journalistic authors have cited in their writings as a possible atrocity, though this is debatable.
Potentially Libelous. The use of the word atrocity is associated with war crimes and adding "though this is debatable" is insufficient to make the charge of atrocity more palatable. There has never been evidence of war crimes committed by US or UN troops in Mogadishu.
There is no reference to the word atrocity in any of the cited sources.
Ironically, a Google search of Somalia atrocity shows no results related to the operation in question but rather shows results related to actions by Mohammed Farah Aideed, the Somali clan leader, who starved hundreds of thousands of Somalis during the Somali civil war that precipitated UNOSOM II, and who later chose to go to war against US and UN troops. Recommended change: His time as Deputy Commander of the UNOSOM II mission involved his oversight of an operation that some journalists criticize for its severity.
In 1993 Montgomery was appointed Deputy Commander of UNOSOM II, the self-styled "first American General in a blue beret.” This position gave him control of all the US forces in UNOSOM II.
Recommended change: None.
On June 5th, Pakistani UN troops were detailed to inspect the offices of Radio Mogadishu, a radio station that had been broadcasting propaganda in support of Somali warlord Mohamed Farrah Aidid. The evening before the raid, Aidid's Interior Minister Abdi Hassan Awale declared that such an inspection would be considered and act of war. Montgomery is alleged to have withheld the message from the Pakistanis. In the gunfight that resulted, 25 Pakistani troops died, the largest killing of UN peacekeeping troops since 1961.
Besides the grammatical error in this passage, there are two major errors-in-fact and a potentially libelous unsupported charge.
Major Error-in-Fact. The Pakistani soldiers were detailed to inspect the authorized weapons storage site cleverly co-located with Radio Mogadishu. The soldiers did not inspect the Radio Mogadishu or its offices. This is not splitting hairs. This distinction is vital to understanding the start of Aideed’s war against UNOSOM II. The authorized weapons storage site was co-located with Radio Mogadishu so that an inspection of the site could be broadcast to the Somalia people as an attempted UN occupation of Radio Mogadishu. Such a propaganda charge was broadcast over Radio Mogadishu inciting riots by Somalis against Pakistani troops that resulted in 12 Pakistani soldiers killed at Feeding Site 1 in central South Mogadishu. The other 12 Pakistani soldiers were killed in a Somali ambush as they were leaving an Authorized Weapons Storage Site north of 21 October Road. No Pakistani soldiers were killed at Radio Mogadishu.
Major Error-in-Fact. Twenty four Pakistani soldiers were killed, not 25, an easily verifiable fact that has been reported correctly many dozens of times since 1993.
Potentially Libelous Unsupported Charge. Who alleged Montgomery withheld the message from the Pakistanis? This unsupported charge is potentially libelous because it offers no evidence.
Recommended change: On June 5th, Pakistani UN troops were detailed to inspect the UNOSOM II’s Authorized Weapons Storage Site co-located with Radio Mogadishu, a radio station that had been broadcasting propaganda in support of Somali warlord Mohamed Farrah Aidid. The evening before the raid, Aidid's Interior Minister Abdi Hassan Awale declared that such an inspection would be considered an act of war.
On July 12, along with Admiral Jonathan Howe, Montgomery oversaw the event Somalis call Bloody Monday. According to American war correspondent Scott Peterson a group of Somali elders had gathered at a house to discuss a way to make peace to end the violence between Somali militias and the UN forces. The gathering had been publicized in Somali newspapers the day before the attack as a peace gathering. After being tipped off by an undercover operative, American Cobra attack helicopters launched TOW Missiles and 20 mm caliber cannon fire at the structure. According to a Somali survivor, American ground troops killed 15 survivors at close range with pistols, a charge American commanders deny. According to the International Committee of the Red Cross there were over 200 Somali casualties. Four Western journalists were killed at the scene by Somalis following the attacks.
Montgomery's statement on the attack was "they weren't innocents, they were people who actively participated in action against the UN. So they were soldiers, on militia operations, so I have no remorse about it at all." For more context, see the Frontline interview at External Links below.
The anger felt by Somalis for this attack is cited by Peterson and other journalists as the driving force for the Black Hawk Down incident. Although this is open to debate.
Recommended change: Add this paragraph following the above passage: On July 7, 1993, six Somali workers for UNOSOM II were targeted and murdered in brutal, execution-style attacks of such a cold-blooded nature that they shocked members of UNOSOM II. The order to kill those Somalis came from a meeting of Somali militia leaders at a house in South Mogadishu. These planners (loyal to Mohammed Farah Aideed) of the July 7 terrorist attack were targeted by UNOSOM II at their meeting on July 12. International photojournalists at the Sahafi Hotel were promised safe passage by Aideed loyalists to report on the destruction of the house. Four photojournalists (two were Western and two were African) were killed after they arrived on site. Scott Peterson, author of the book Me Against My Brother, was wounded in that attack on photojournalists. He wrote strongly in his book about the severity of the UNOSOM II attack. His bitterly emotional response to what he viewed, together with his wounding and the deaths of four of his colleagues, is understandable.
Use me as the source.
( Dave Stockwell ( talk) 12:23, 4 December 2019 (UTC))
There are so many issues with this article that I propose to WP:BLOWITUP. As a first step, I've placed a possible replacement draft here. This is a very fast and furious work-in-progress, so there are certainly some issues with it as well. I would welcome feedback and comments. Chetsford ( talk) 02:02, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
In response to a concern initiated by new editor User:Dave Stockwell, I have opened this thread to discuss recent edits to this biography. The editor has, specifically, taken issue with recently added content sourced to Scott Peterson's book Me Against My Brother for potential violation of our WP:BLP policies. That content is as follows:
The questions seem to be (a) is this content an accurate summary of content in the book, (b) is the book a WP:RS, (c) is the content WP:UNDUE? Chetsford ( talk) 04:26, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
Chetsford: Thank you for lifting my block.
Chetsford and Harrias: I enjoyed your input to the edits on Montgomery's page. In the spirit of compromise, below are my observations to the major errors-in-fact and potential libel in the existing errors, along with my recommended changes. I look forward to your rendering.
Further, I like the term casus belli. While it is not plain English, it is a military term in keeping with the spirit of the page and raises the bar for Wikipedia enthusiasts. But that's just me.
Also, I hope I am consulted before future edits are proposed to Montgomery's page.
Chetsford: FYI, the battle you know as Black Hawk Down occurred in 1993, not 1994 as I believe you inserted.
Here are my observations and recommended changes:
Lieutenant General Thomas M. Montgomery (born January 23, 1941 in Indianapolis, Indiana) is a retired US Army officer who served as the deputy commander of UNOSOM I, UNITAF, and UNOSOM II in the Somali Civil War.
Major Error in Fact. Montgomery served as deputy commander of UNOSOM II, not UNOSOM I or UNITAF.
Recommended change: Lieutenant General Thomas M. Montgomery (born January 23, 1941 in Indianapolis, Indiana) is a retired US Army officer who served as the deputy commander of UNOSOM II from 1993 to 1994.
Also, the cited source does not support the statement.
Recommended change: Delete the source or find a proper one.
He once referred to Mogadishu as the "Temple of Doom.”
The abbreviated quote contains an error-in-fact that Montgomery used the term once. The abbreviated quote portrays Montgomery’s in a negative light. The full quote: I think it was clear up front that this was a very dangerous place. Later, I always described Mogadishu as sort of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.
Recommended change: He said, “I think it was clear up front that this was a very dangerous place. Later, I always described Mogadishu as sort of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.
Also, the cited source does not support the statement.
Recommended change: Delete the source or find a proper one.
His time as Deputy Commander of the UNOSOM II mission involved his oversight of an operation that one or more journalistic authors have cited in their writings as a possible atrocity, though this is debatable.
Potentially Libelous. The use of the word atrocity is associated with war crimes and adding "though this is debatable" is insufficient to make the charge of atrocity more palatable. There has never been evidence of war crimes committed by US or UN troops in Mogadishu.
There is no reference to the word atrocity in any of the cited sources.
Ironically, a Google search of Somalia atrocity shows no results related to the operation in question but rather shows results related to actions by Mohammed Farah Aideed, the Somali clan leader, who starved hundreds of thousands of Somalis during the Somali civil war that precipitated UNOSOM II, and who later chose to go to war against US and UN troops. Recommended change: His time as Deputy Commander of the UNOSOM II mission involved his oversight of an operation that some journalists criticize for its severity.
In 1993 Montgomery was appointed Deputy Commander of UNOSOM II, the self-styled "first American General in a blue beret.” This position gave him control of all the US forces in UNOSOM II.
Recommended change: None.
On June 5th, Pakistani UN troops were detailed to inspect the offices of Radio Mogadishu, a radio station that had been broadcasting propaganda in support of Somali warlord Mohamed Farrah Aidid. The evening before the raid, Aidid's Interior Minister Abdi Hassan Awale declared that such an inspection would be considered and act of war. Montgomery is alleged to have withheld the message from the Pakistanis. In the gunfight that resulted, 25 Pakistani troops died, the largest killing of UN peacekeeping troops since 1961.
Besides the grammatical error in this passage, there are two major errors-in-fact and a potentially libelous unsupported charge.
Major Error-in-Fact. The Pakistani soldiers were detailed to inspect the authorized weapons storage site cleverly co-located with Radio Mogadishu. The soldiers did not inspect the Radio Mogadishu or its offices. This is not splitting hairs. This distinction is vital to understanding the start of Aideed’s war against UNOSOM II. The authorized weapons storage site was co-located with Radio Mogadishu so that an inspection of the site could be broadcast to the Somalia people as an attempted UN occupation of Radio Mogadishu. Such a propaganda charge was broadcast over Radio Mogadishu inciting riots by Somalis against Pakistani troops that resulted in 12 Pakistani soldiers killed at Feeding Site 1 in central South Mogadishu. The other 12 Pakistani soldiers were killed in a Somali ambush as they were leaving an Authorized Weapons Storage Site north of 21 October Road. No Pakistani soldiers were killed at Radio Mogadishu.
Major Error-in-Fact. Twenty four Pakistani soldiers were killed, not 25, an easily verifiable fact that has been reported correctly many dozens of times since 1993.
Potentially Libelous Unsupported Charge. Who alleged Montgomery withheld the message from the Pakistanis? This unsupported charge is potentially libelous because it offers no evidence.
Recommended change: On June 5th, Pakistani UN troops were detailed to inspect the UNOSOM II’s Authorized Weapons Storage Site co-located with Radio Mogadishu, a radio station that had been broadcasting propaganda in support of Somali warlord Mohamed Farrah Aidid. The evening before the raid, Aidid's Interior Minister Abdi Hassan Awale declared that such an inspection would be considered an act of war.
On July 12, along with Admiral Jonathan Howe, Montgomery oversaw the event Somalis call Bloody Monday. According to American war correspondent Scott Peterson a group of Somali elders had gathered at a house to discuss a way to make peace to end the violence between Somali militias and the UN forces. The gathering had been publicized in Somali newspapers the day before the attack as a peace gathering. After being tipped off by an undercover operative, American Cobra attack helicopters launched TOW Missiles and 20 mm caliber cannon fire at the structure. According to a Somali survivor, American ground troops killed 15 survivors at close range with pistols, a charge American commanders deny. According to the International Committee of the Red Cross there were over 200 Somali casualties. Four Western journalists were killed at the scene by Somalis following the attacks.
Montgomery's statement on the attack was "they weren't innocents, they were people who actively participated in action against the UN. So they were soldiers, on militia operations, so I have no remorse about it at all." For more context, see the Frontline interview at External Links below.
The anger felt by Somalis for this attack is cited by Peterson and other journalists as the driving force for the Black Hawk Down incident. Although this is open to debate.
Recommended change: Add this paragraph following the above passage: On July 7, 1993, six Somali workers for UNOSOM II were targeted and murdered in brutal, execution-style attacks of such a cold-blooded nature that they shocked members of UNOSOM II. The order to kill those Somalis came from a meeting of Somali militia leaders at a house in South Mogadishu. These planners (loyal to Mohammed Farah Aideed) of the July 7 terrorist attack were targeted by UNOSOM II at their meeting on July 12. International photojournalists at the Sahafi Hotel were promised safe passage by Aideed loyalists to report on the destruction of the house. Four photojournalists (two were Western and two were African) were killed after they arrived on site. Scott Peterson, author of the book Me Against My Brother, was wounded in that attack on photojournalists. He wrote strongly in his book about the severity of the UNOSOM II attack. His bitterly emotional response to what he viewed, together with his wounding and the deaths of four of his colleagues, is understandable.
Use me as the source.
( Dave Stockwell ( talk) 12:23, 4 December 2019 (UTC))
There are so many issues with this article that I propose to WP:BLOWITUP. As a first step, I've placed a possible replacement draft here. This is a very fast and furious work-in-progress, so there are certainly some issues with it as well. I would welcome feedback and comments. Chetsford ( talk) 02:02, 9 December 2019 (UTC)