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We currently have five paragraphs in the lead section, but their content doesn't flow very well.
Paragraph 1 says why TJ is important but then it concludes awkwardly with "He was a land owner and farmer."
Paragraph 2 is a brief biography from birth and early career but not including presidency. This is fine.
Paragraph 3 is a summary of his presidency. This is fine.
Paragraph 4 describes prominent interests such as architecture, philosophy, and talks about his writings and his stance on religion. The farmer bit could be worked in here.
Paragraph 5 is a grab bag, with odd stuff thrown together. It has TJ's slave owner status, possible sex and offspring with his slave, then it jumps back to career highlights and how much he is loved today. Then it jumps again to criticism of his behavior as a slave owner then it jumps again to how great is his current status. This is where a clear-headed editor is needed to impose a smooth flow. Binksternet ( talk) 20:32, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
Paragraph 1 - last sentence
I have a real problem with this sentence so am trying to tease out its actual structure here:
Subject of the sentence is "he"/verb->produced/object->formative docs.
So then if we look at the first part of the sentence "A proponent of democracy,
republicanism, and individual rights motivating
American colonists to break from Great Britain and form a new nation", what is the subject/object of that incomplete phrase?
This phrase is a descriptor to "he" but seems somewhat grafted on to the main part of the sentence but when I tried to break it down (I do remember some of my lessons in sentence diagramming.) it doesn't quite make complete sense. I think "proponent of who motivated..." reads a little better and have changed it accordingly along with some other copy-edits. Shearonink ( talk) 04:40, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
General lede C/E:
While I was writing the following, Shearonink was editing the article. I mainly like those edits, specially switching the good and bad parts of the legacy so as to end on a positive note. I like having the ranking bit, which seemed to me well-incorporated into the paragraph and not stand-alone. Not a biggie, though. So I'm going to go ahead and post what I had written, for what it may be worth.
I would like to add this link [1] describing the three institutions who have replicated Thomas Jefferson's libraries in part or in whole. I would like to add the note at the end of this sentence (where the X is):
Retirement and later years Further information: Thomas Jefferson and education Following his retirement from the presidency, Jefferson continued his pursuit of educational interests; he sold his vast collection of books to the Library of Congress, and founded and built the University of Virginia.[205] X
All the best,
BarbPrior ( talk) 21:33, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
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This should be added as a source in that it gives the exact geographic location of the site. https://billiongraves.com/grave/Thomas-Jefferson/18711396 Annajyoung ( talk) 19:54, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
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Please add https://billiongraves.com/grave/Thomas-Jefferson/18711396 as a source for the burial of Thomas Jefferson, as it is geotagged and available for the public Annajyoung ( talk) 20:16, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
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70.162.226.36 ( talk) 01:14, 7 March 2018 (UTC)what in 1992? the George town became popular
In the memorials and honors section of this article I wrote that Charlottesville, Virginia has a city holiday in honor of Jefferson on or near April 13. It was deleted. Is it possible for someone to edit the article and place this information in it? Verification can be made by visiting
http://www.charlottesville.org/business/city-holiday-schedule. In addition to Charlottesville honoring Jefferson with a paid holiday, Albemarle County, where Jefferson was born, also closes their offices on his birthday. Verification here:
https://www.albemarle.org/event.asp?info=event&id=22678&displayed_date=. Thank you.
This is the fourth time in one day that Gwillhickers has placed the misspelled phrase "biding her a solemn farewell" into the article. I have removed it three times because it's mawkish and melodramatic. It's poor writing, and doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. Any other opinions about it? Binksternet ( talk) 04:33, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
Please correct the miswritten name of the author of "Thomas Jefferson's Ethics and the Politics of Human Progress: The Morality of a Slaveholder". The author is Ari Helo, not Ray Helo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Poppoosi ( talk • contribs) 07:44, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
After careful consideration, I came to the conclusion that the final sentence of the first paragraph ("He was a land owner and farmer.") portrayed an incomplete and incorrect picture of Jefferson:
My read of this sentence was that it was an attempt to describe Jefferson's status (land owner) and work (farmer) separate from his political career. As such, slavemaster was at least as important as farmer and potentially as important as land owner as well.
I have seen this edit immediately undone by three different editors without justification despite its historical certitude. I would like to understand the rationale for this. If it is an attempt to sanitize and whitewash Jefferson's biography, this is clearly not the place to do it. And if there is a belief that it is somehow secondary to Jefferson's status as land owner/farmer, I would like to hear the logic behind that assertion.
Thanks! jsmathematics aka Jason — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jsmathematics ( talk • contribs) 11:19, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
Thank you, and I will attempt to create a user page as suggested. I did review WP: NPOV but find that my edit is still an appropriate and important one. Here is my rationale.
Sincerely, jsmathematics (aka Jason). 1:35, 2 May 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jsmathematics ( talk • contribs)
Thomas Jefferson's biography should be edited so that the phrase, "greatest men *that* ever lived" reads "greatest men *who* ever lived"
This phrase appears under "Political, social, and religious views" Maezeppa 15:08, 27 May 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maezeppa1 ( talk • contribs)
This newly added sentence isn't structured correctly: Jefferson owned hundreds of slaves worked on his plantations or nail factory that some modern scholars believe contradicted his famous declaration that "all men are created equal." I reverted the change and then worked on the paragraph. YoPienso ( talk) 01:00, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
In the Slavery section, the following line is found:
Upon his death in 1826, Jefferson freed five male Hemings slaves in his will.[327]
In the "Final days, death, and burial" section, this line is found:
He gave instructions in his will for disposal of his assets,[251] including the freeing of Sally Hemings's children;[252] but his estate, possessions, and slaves were sold at public auctions starting in 1827.[253]
I realize both lines have cited references, however they contradict one another. While the instructions in the will clearly indicate he intended to free the Hemings, it did not happen, as is most strongly suggested by the line as currently written.
I am unclear how to correct this while maintaining the integrity of the original source material, but it must be corrected, as it gives a false impression. Nothing stopped him from freeing them while he lived, and he would have known his level of debt would hinder the desired execution of his will. To outright say he freed them is to utter a historical falsehood. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boblamont ( talk • contribs) 10:17, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for the link, it was a great read. I guess my concern would be the "but" in the sentence in the "Final days" section. In context, it sounds like he meant to, but was unable to, free them. It also leaves out the fact that he did, in fact let two of the children leave to pass into freedom prior to his death (as mentioned in the link you cited). Boblamont ( talk) 23:58, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
Just wanted to note that Thomas Jefferson considers authoring the Virginia Statute of Religious freedom one of his greatest accomplishments, yet there's almost no mention of it in the article :) I'm new to Wikipedia so sorry if this is in the wrong place!
LNej375 ( talk) 02:12, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
In the interest of making the section in Jefferson's box listing his children more complete, could someone link Harriet Hemmings as well? 2601:642:4401:114F:B934:BF53:4ED9:515A ( talk) 20:45, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 14:08, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
Could Thomas Jefferson be described as the father of what we call Libertarianism today in America? 75.128.82.247 ( talk) 16:43, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
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The opening sentence should include the fact that he was an enslaver along with his being a statesman, diplomat, lawyer, architect, and Founding Father. Ditto the articles about Madison, Monroe, Washington, Jackson, etc. SomeoneInATree ( talk) 17:42, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
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There are numerous additions I would like to make. I want first my 15 books added to the biblio.
Holowchak, Mark (2013). Framing a Legend: Exposing the Distorted History of Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings. Prometheus Books. ISBN 978-1-6161-4729-7. Holowchak, M. Andrew (2020). Rethinking Thomas Jefferson’s Views on Race and Slavery: “God’s justice can not sleep forever,” Cambridge Scholars Holowchak, M. Andrew (2020). Jefferson and Religion: The Incredibly Simple Religious Views of an American Messiah, Abilene Christian University Press. Holowchak, M. Andrew (2020). Thomas Jefferson: Psychobiography of an American Lion, Nova Publishers, ISBN 978-1536166576. Holowchak, M. Andrew (2020). Thirty-Six More Essays, Plus another, on the Probing Mind of Thomas Jefferson: “A sentimental traveller,” II, Cambridge Scholars Press, 2020. Holowchak, M. Andrew (2020). Thirty-Six Short Essays on the Probing Mind of Thomas Jefferson: “A sentimental traveler,” Cambridge Scholars, ISBN 978-1527541856. Holowchak, M. Andrew (2019). The Cavernous Mind of Thomas Jefferson, An American Savant, Cambridge Scholars, ISBN 978-1527538641. Holowchak, M. Andrew (2019). Jefferson’s Bible: Text with Introduction and Critical Commentary, Berlin: DeGruyter, ISBN 978-3110617566. Holowchak, M. Andrew (2017). Thomas Jefferson, Moralist, McFarland, ISBN 1476669244. Holowchak, M. Andrew (2017). Jefferson’s Political Philosophy and the Metaphysics of Utopia, Brill, ISBN 978-9004339415. Holowchak, M. Andrew (2017). The Elusive Thomas Jefferson: The Man behind the Myths (contributing co-editor with Brian Dotts, UGA), McFarland, ISBN 1476669252. Holowchak, M. Andrew (2014). Thomas Jefferson’s Philosophy of Education: A Utopian Dream, Taylor & Francis. Holowchak, M. Andrew (2014). Thomas Jefferson: Uncovering His Unique Philosophy and Vision, Prometheus Books, ISBN 1616149523. Holowchak, M. Andrew (2013). Thomas Jefferson and Philosophy: Essays on the Philosophical Cast of Jefferson’s Writings, Lexington Books, Holowchak, M. Andrew (2013). Framing a Legend: Exposing the Distorted History of Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings, Prometheus Books, Holowchak, M. Andrew (2012). Dutiful Correspondent: Philosophical Essays on Thomas Jefferson, Rowman & Littlefield, ISBN 1442220422. Mholowchak ( talk) 19:33, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
I don't have the privilege to modify this page. But I believe that the law on prohibiting the import of slaves went into effect 1808 not 1818 as said here.
/info/en/?search=Act_Prohibiting_Importation_of_Slaves — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edward ruggeri ( talk • contribs) 22:21, 10 December 2019 (UTC)
I added a question at Talk:Early life and career of_Thomas Jefferson#Ancestry (which doesn't have the readership of this main article). If someone knows of the information about Samuel Jefferson and Christopher Branch, that would be much appreciated!– CaroleHenson ( talk) 19:37, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
Since I don't have the silver permission I can't edit a glaring inaccuracy; maybe someone else can. The article erroneously states that after Jefferson resigned from Washington's cabinet, Washington never spoke to him again. This is patently untrue. The article cites Ron Chernow's book Alexander Hamilton as the source, p.427. I have the book and p. 427 does not even discuss Jefferson at all, let alone his resignation from Washington's cabinet. Washington's "dissatisfaction" with Jefferson is discussed on pp. 499-500, but even at that point Jefferson is still in Washington's cabinet.
Furthermore, after Jefferson resigned and after Washington completed his terms, the two men continued a correspondence in 1797 wherein they discussed to some extent Jay's Treaty, and when that discussion went sour they continued their correspondence with more innocuous topics such as farming techniques. They continued to correspond until newspapers printed an inflammatory letter Jefferson had written about Washington some years earlier—one he had denied to Washington he had written in which Washington was called "America's degenerate Samson and Solomon." Once Washington discovered Jefferson had indeed been the author of this letter, he ceased all communication with him. This was in mid-to-late 1797. [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.126.150.30 ( talk) 03:03, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
References
I believe a scandals section is in order because I think there is enough information and enough scandals. Not that the scandals directly involved Jefferson. There appear to be a total of 7 scandals: Burr Conspiracy, Wilkinson Misconduct, The Two Million Act, The Post Office Investigation, The Miranda Expedition, Josiah Quincy's Attempted Impeachment of Jefferson, and The New Orleans "Batture" case. Banner 1974 is the source for these scandals. Any objections or suggestions ?
Cmguy777 (
talk)
07:20, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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The introductory line is incomplete.
It reads: "Thomas Jefferson (April 13, 1743[a] – July 4, 1826) was an American statesman, diplomat, lawyer, architect, philosopher, and Founding Father who served as the third president..."
It SHOULD read: Thomas Jefferson (April 13, 1743[a] – July 4, 1826) was an American statesman, diplomat, lawyer, architect, philosopher, slave-owner and Founding Father who served as the third president..."
That last bit is a significant portion of who he was, more so than the each of the other individual parts. le Boojam ( talk) 17:46, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
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Sundayclose (
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I request that you change the wording with regards to Sally Hemings. The article says that Jefferson has relations with "his slave" Sally Hemings. She was enslaved, not a slave. And she is referred to as a "mixed race woman". She was in fact a "mixed race child" when Jefferson began to have sexual relations with her. 32.211.91.212 ( talk) 14:24, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
In 1801, Jefferson indicated that slavery needed to be eliminated in the US. Source. Christopher Hitchens. Not sure about his primary source. Johnvag814 ( talk) 18:13, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
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The fact that Thomas Jefferson was a "plantation-owner, slaveholder" is totally irrelevant to the facts about Mr. Jefferson. He was one of the Founding Fathers who wanted to end slavery immediately, but compromised and included the ending by not allowing the further purchase of human beings for servitude. Also, since when is "plantation owner" hyphenated. We do not say car-owner or home-owner. You DO NOT HAVE MY PERMISSION TO MAKE MY IP ADDRESS PUBLICLY VISIBLE. I DO NOT AGREE TO THAT TERM AND YOU MUST HEREBY ABIDE BY THAT. 204.9.108.202 ( talk) 15:01, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
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The dna study of Jefferson proved that he did not Father her child as claimed. The study was based on haplotyping and the shared Mitrochondrial dna. The retraction in Nature was reported by a small handful of papers of the over 200 that claimed him to be the Father. The science clearly eliminates Jefferson while identifying some other member of the Jefferson family. The best article I have found on it is by the historian David Barton. It is not healthy to base this conclusion on hearsay or the popular vote of modern historians. My studies in haplotyping enabled me to study the evidence and agree with the retraction. Why would we ignore the science of this case?
https://wallbuilders.com/thomas-jefferson-sally-hemings-search-truth/ Leapingfrog ( talk) 07:36, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
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I could be wrong but I thought DNA testing answered this question. What historian disagrees? 96.240.128.124 ( talk) 15:46, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
Since the results of the DNA tests were made public, the consensus among academic historians has been that Jefferson had a sexual relationship with Sally Hemings and that he was the father of her son Eston Hemings ...Please see the footnote after that sentence for a list of sources and quotations from them. It includes academic historians commenting explicitly on this "consensus." All of them say that historians agree that Jefferson fathered Eston Hemings; two of them (expert sources, remember) say in addition that Jefferson fathered all six of Sally Hemings' children. The phrase,
though some experts dispute this conclusion, ends that section because of what the next paragraph states: There are some (a very few) experts who continue to say that there is insufficient evidence. I think the section accurately reflects the debate. There is a broad consensus, but some few experts who disagree. Presenting the evidence and letting the reader decide isn't what WP is about, but presenting legitimate expert views is, and they should be included with due weight on the mainstream or accepted view.-- MattMauler ( talk) 08:20, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
My view for this article is to emphasize that the Jefferson-Hemings connection, JHC, is just a debate among historians, not an indictment of paternity by Jefferson.Since initial misgivings in 1970, today in 2020, a SH-TJ "connection" is taken for granted in the mainstream scholarship of Jefferson's life. THE EDITORIAL ISSUE HERE revolves around the question, How much wp:due weight to give the person SH in the biography of TJ? I suggest that their relationship should be EQUAL to that historians give Abigail Adams in the biography of John Adams. I am beginning from the EDITORIAL JUDGMENT that Sally is equally important as Abigail in their respective relationships in the lives of the respective Presidents of the United States. So, two paragraphs for Sally in Tom's bio is warranted, and maybe more, but NOT four-times more.
@ TheVirginiaHistorian and TheVirginiaHistorian: I don't think the Federal Rules of Evidence, or any rules of evidence for courts of law, should be considered to be standards for historical inquiry regarding encyclopedias. Those rules need to be treated holistically and efficacy of the burden of proof standards in court cannot be understood without courts' restrictions on evidence such as hearsay. In History, we need to consider hearsay, and there was a lot of conflicting hearsay regarding Thomas and Randolph Jefferson. Most likely, I would agree that Thomas Jefferson was the biological father of at least some of Hemmings' children. However, we should acknowledge that debate exists surrounding the subject. CessnaMan1989 ( talk) 20:44, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
“Sally Hemings lived at Monticello as a house servant, friend and confidant of Thomas Jefferson from after his wife’s death, until Jefferson’s own death.”
"house servant, friend and confidant of Thomas Jefferson ..."). There were amicable aspects to their relationship; it was longterm; and historians acknowledge the complicated nature of their relationship (Gordon-Reed puts it bluntly: "Did they love each other?"). BUT we have a word for "house servants" who are unpaid and literally owned by their employers. The passage seems euphemistic to me, and I would have to be convinced with very strong sources for words like "friend," etc. if such sources even exist.-- MattMauler ( talk) 16:48, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
"definitively refute"them. We would need mainstream, scholarly sources to establish/affirm them before the material is added to the article (See WP:BURDEN).-- MattMauler ( talk) 01:33, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
...because right now it's in the fifth paragraph, buried in the second half of a lengthy sentence. That's pretty embarrassing. If you think this isn't all that important, well. If you think Jefferson wasn't all that bad, here you go; flip to p. 264. Pinging Stevenmitchell, Stephan Schulz, A.S. Williams, RandomCanadian, who spoke on these matters earlier. RandomCanadian, you can't just whisk this away as "presentism". Rather, this is a matter that should have been addressed, and acted on, a long time ago. Drmies ( talk) 16:04, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
From the perspective of an encyclopedia, the most notable details should be stressed. Most wealthy men in the South owned slaves at the time, so Jefferson's slave-owning is not particularly notable. It would be like describing a man from the same period as a horse-owner and slaves were viewed and treated like horses. Put it this way: there are plenty of slave-owners in history who don't merit mention in an encyclopedia. Now, slavery was an extremely important aspect of history, and slavery is definitely an important aspect of Thomas Jefferson's life, but it just isn't its most distinguishing aspects. CessnaMan1989 ( talk) 14:51, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
In 1774 Thomas Jefferson himself wrote the following: "Resolved that it be an instruction to the said deputies when assembled in General Congress with the deputies from the other states of British America to propose to the said Congress [ . . . ] colony of Virginia [ . . . ] colony of Virginia [ . . . ] to quiet the minds of your subjects in British America against any apprehensions of future incroachment, to establish fraternal love and harmony thro' the whole empire, and that that may continue to the latest ages of time, is the fervent prayer of all British America." A Summary View of the Rights of British America, July 1774, Papers 1:121--35 [9]
The Colony's name was not Virginia, the Colony's name was the "Colony of Virginia". Thomas Jefferson used "colony of Virginia" in his papers. It should not be necessary to click on a link to find out Jefferson was not born in "Virginia", but that he was born in the "Colony of Virginia". Jerry Stockton ( talk) 01:02, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
@ General Ization and Jerry Stockton: I tentatively believe there is a subtle difference between the terms used that was relevant in the context of The Proclamation of 1763 and a few court cases. The "Colony of Virginia" referred to settled and claimed areas and "Virginia" referred to Western territory that was claimed by not actually settled. I don't think this distinction matters for a general encyclopedia though. Maybe if we were writing a specialized summary for historians or dealing with legal documents, the distinction would be relevant, but for general knowledge, I don't think it matters. CessnaMan1989 ( talk) 14:59, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
How is consensus defined among acamemic historians concerning the Jefferson-Hemings connection (controversy) ? Was there a meeting or formal vote among historians ? The word "consensus" is unclear. Is there another word other than consensus that can be used ? Cmguy777 ( talk) 03:35, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
The Monticello website says, "Years after his wife’s death, Thomas Jefferson fathered at least six of Sally Hemings’s children. Four survived to adulthood and are mentioned in Jefferson’s plantation records: Beverly, Harriet, Madison, and Eston Hemings."[ https://www.monticello.org/thomas-jefferson/jefferson-slavery/thomas-jefferson-and-sally-hemings-a-brief-account/} So I suggest we just state it as a fact and avoid the compromise language. TFD ( talk) 04:11, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
Historians, as is their wont, have usually been more reserved in their evaluation of the Jefferson-Hemings relationship than most journalists. Nonetheless, as the conferences and publications devoted to the topic attest, the DNA revelations have strongly resonated among Jefferson scholars as well. Like the media, most historians now no longer seem to question the " truth " of the Jefferson-Hemings relationship; the questions raised almost invariably deal with the way we respond to such truth.
With the publication of E. A. Foster et al.'s study in Nature on October 31, 1998, what once was rumor now seems to be, if not proven, at least sufficiently probable that virtually all professional historians will accept that Jefferson was the father of at least one of Sally Hemings's chil- dren, her son Eston (the only one who left male-line descendants whose DNA might be tested)
What is the basis for this claim of a "mistake" and where is this described in more detail? Jefferson became vice president in the 1796 election because he came second in the electoral college. This was the system prior to the 12th amendment. It's true that lack of coordination between electors likely led to a different result than the parties envisaged, but I'm not convinced this amounts to a "mistake" as the article seems to suggest. Kidburla ( talk) 11:23, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
I concur Kidburla. There was no mistake as this was prior to the 12th Amendment. What is being misunderstood or incorrectly explained is that Hamilton believed that he had come up a with a scheme whereby a friendly vice president could be elected--and it was Hamilton who was mistaken in his approach to how it might work -- and the Vice Presidency went to the 2nd Place finisher as it had always up until that point. See: https://www.senate.gov/about/officers-staff/vice-president/VP_Thomas_Jefferson.htm Cglenn3932 ( talk) 16:32, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
In the context of the paragraph here, "introduced" is being used in two senses here: Small made introductions between the humans Jefferson, Wythe, and Fauquier; that is to say, these people all met each other in the real world and had subsequent direct interactions. By contrast, Small (presumably) introduced Jefferson to the ideas of Locke (deceased 1704), Bacon (deceased 1626), and Newton (deceased 1726/7). Given that Jefferson was born in 1743, we can assume that Small did not introduce Jefferson to them in the same sense as Wythe and Fauquier.
Smarter editors than I should figure out a better way to rephrase this.
174.57.79.121 ( talk) 14:17, 10 December 2020 (UTC)JTB
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96.5.241.167 ( talk) 15:35, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
If thid is not already in there add his birth day death day and the fact that he was the 3rd president
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Please remove the template "J Adams cabinet", as the vice presidency wasn't yet a cabinet position. 67.173.23.66 ( talk) 23:45, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
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Zicke523231 ( talk) 14:23, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
There is something missing in the Thomas Jefferson It doesn't explain how he died.
Someone please add that Jefferson is depicted in " Our Nation's 200th Birthday, The Telephone's 100th Birthday" by Stanley Meltzoff for Bell System? https://www.jklmuseum.com/tag/stanley-meltzoff/ 47.152.71.253 ( talk) 21:20, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
Thank you, Philos Armonikos, for restoring and citing Epicureanism as an influence. The only trouble now is that we have something in the lead that nowhere appears in the body. In the past I've fought hard to keep the article to a reasonable length, so I'm surprised at myself for now saying somebody should add Epicureanism to the body. YoPienso ( talk) 16:22, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
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98.179.157.202 ( talk) 14:13, 14 April 2021 (UTC) i am lerning about hin
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His first Vice President shot Alexander Hamilton second one died in office wife died in office his daughter was second wife from 1801-1809 his first one was from 1800-1801 his second one was from 1811-1812 the death of George Clinton he died on the same day July 4 1826 47.138.36.205 ( talk) 21:36, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
Can I add a list of his inventions in the inventions section Vinceroldz ( talk) 14:07, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
In the section on Religion we read that "He thought Americans would rationally create " Apiarian" religion, extracting the best traditions of every denomination." The link goes to beekeeping which is clearly wrong. I wonder if " Arian" is meant, Arianism being a well-known Christian heresy, but cannot verify this with online book sources. Is anyone able to find out what the source actually says? Bermicourt ( talk) 07:45, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
"In January 2000 (revised 2011),[374] the TJF report concluded that 'the DNA study ... indicates a high probability that Thomas Jefferson fathered Eston Hemings.'[374][375][r] The TJF also concluded that Jefferson likely fathered all of Heming's [sic] children listed at Monticello.[374][s]"
Those are bald-faced lies. I won't bother citing the evidence, because at [WP] all true sources are denounced by the commissariat as "unreliable." 2603:7000:B23E:3056:3C85:C72D:C12D:6829 ( talk) 23:38, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
I just raised the same issue that there is no concretely evidence of Thomas Jefferson fathering her children. Beatcop49 ( talk) 20:48, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
Hi, I think it would be appropriate to embed the philosophy infobox into Jefferson's infobox. I think it would be appropriate since he is to a large extent known for his philosophical work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kanclerz K-Tech ( talk • contribs) 16:28, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
I am considering writing an article about Rebecca Burwell. (I found out about her when writing the article for her daughter Elizabeth Jaquelin Ambler Brent Carrington. The two key areas of interest for me are that 1) she was orphaned as a child and raised by William Nelson and his wife and 2) she was a love interest of Thomas Jefferson beginning at about age 17. I am finding enough sources to build an article for her, including Some prominent Virginia families, Mr. Jefferson's Women, [ Love and War, mention of her in Founders Online, newspaper articles, correspondence by her daughter, etc.
If I write the article, I would like to connect her to Thomas Jefferson - perhaps in the main article, in the Early life and career of Thomas Jefferson article, or perhaps another that I am not aware of.
Do you have any thoughts about whether this is a good article to write - and, if so, the most appropriate place to connect her article to Jefferson?
I will take no responses to mean that there's no opposition to the article - and will figure out where to add Burwell - most likely the Early life and career of Thomas Jefferson article.
Thanks!– CaroleHenson ( talk) 15:47, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
"by blood they were legally "white"....Sally, appeared as free whites in the 1830 Albermarle County census" -page 10 https://www.tjheritage.org/scholars-commission-pdf
In this census data for 1830 there are racial categories for "white, colored and other". by 1850 the designation mulatto appears. By 1890 (60 years later). The designation quadroon and octaroon appears. https://www.census.gov/data-tools/demo/race/MREAD_1790_2010.html
"These children were three-quarters white, and, following the condition of their mother, they were enslaved from birth" /info/en/?search=Betty_Hemings — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:A0C6:1200:B05F:C789:EFD8:4AF ( talk) 09:45, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
"Eston Hemings changed his racial identity to white and his surname to Jefferson after moving from Ohio to Wisconsin in 1852." https://www.monticello.org/thomas-jefferson/jefferson-slavery/thomas-jefferson-and-sally-hemings-a-brief-account/monticello-affirms-thomas-jefferson-fathered-children-with-sally-hemings/
"the idea that white slave-master fathers would sell their own children in slave markets raised Northerners' concerns." /info/en/?search=White_slave_propaganda — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:A0C6:1200:B05F:C789:EFD8:4AF ( talk) 11:25, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
There had been no concrete evidence that Thomas Jefferson fathered any of Sally Hemings’ children. There is Jefferson DNA no doubt, it that only indicates that a Jefferson was involved with her. Beatcop49 ( talk) 20:47, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
The citation for "many historians" or some kind of consensus here amongst historians is always just a book Annette Gordon-Reed wrote that you cannot check the citation unless you purchase the book. It appears the consensus amongst historians is the book being cited for that is historically flawed to the point it looks intentionally tampering with the historical accuracy by the author to fit a narrative. The DNA test is not conclusive. At best it proves, a Y DNA relation to a Jefferson Paternal DNA line to a single Hemings. This leaves 25 suspects in Virginia. On closer scrutiny, How many people living in Virginia, or even Paris, are distant relatives? Considering Sally Hemings shares 75% of her DNA with Europeans with a 1700 world population of half a million. Furthermore, from 1830 to the present there's roughly 200 years to "contaminate" that DNA with a paternal relative of Jefferson, botching the evidence completely. The DNA test is not a smoking gun. This is not sound stuff in history, science or wiki project. The entire thing is "reaching" at best. With wiki citations checking obfuscated by hiding them behind paywalls to increase the likelihood its uncited. Furthermore there's a complex and sore historical network of slavery ties and familial ties, where we know Jefferson and Hemings are relatives by Jeffersons wifes blood relations to Sally Hemings, Along with leaving things to your slaves in wills and oddly paying them salaries and buying things like 100 head of cabbages from them. So, any descendants could declare relation as matter of course either through Familial relations like common law relatives/adoption or, in this case blood relation by law.
"at the top of the enslaved hierarchy. Betty Hemings' other children and their descendants, also mixed race, were bestowed privileged assignments, as well. None worked in the fields." this wiki quote on the Sally Hemings page rubs me the wrongest. Considering there's historical records for 100 head of cabbage being purchased by Jefferson for $2. In some attempt to denigrate the importance of food production or something. With the same uncited citations from a single book you should buy from an author who's work, there, is scrutinized by a majority of accredited historians. This one we have proof that this is entirely opinion and patently false by that author. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:A0C6:1200:A96B:63CC:FEF7:B892 ( talk) 21:57, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
The level of historical revisionism, we've entered into is just bizarre, and has long entered into levels of crazy town. I say we just go full bore down that path and say no white people ever farmed anything and Thomas Jefferson rode his relatives around his plantation like little horses. If you want to see the citation then buy my book(self published on Amazon) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:A0C6:1200:A96B:63CC:FEF7:B892 ( talk) 22:09, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
That last one that rubs me the wrongest. Is a certain level of implied denigration and disrespect to the ancestors of Hemings, former slaves, their ancestors, farmers, gardeners or anyone that ever reaped the fruits of their labor. To imply those 100 cabbages never existed and whitewash them from history. to reap the rewards of your work and time dedicated to 100 cabbages, must be a proud moment. That's alot of success. And 160 years later some one comes along to try and deny that ever happened, for whatever motives. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:A0C6:1200:A96B:63CC:FEF7:B892 ( talk) 22:25, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
Im starting to wonder if this is all a setup where it creates an environment to go full Pol Pot and eliminate the intelligentsia and academia and Im starting to have less of a problem with that if academia is dedicating themselves to historical revisionism of uncitable falsities, like Jefferson rode his relatives like little horses, Because at that point, to academia, you no longer serve a purpose and your time would be better spent forced into a life of farming. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:A0C6:1200:A96B:63CC:FEF7:B892 ( talk) 22:37, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
We would like to add "slaveholder" to the initial list of President Jefferson's identities/accomplishments (first sentence); it was an important part of his existence, and this is the most likely thing that people will read to get a glimpse of his history. Enslaving others tells us more about a person's life and character than being an architect. So the proposed first sentence would be "Thomas Jefferson (April 13, 1743[a] – July 4, 1826) was an American statesman, diplomat, lawyer, architect, philosopher, slaveholder, and Founding Father who served as the third president of the United States from 1801 to 1809." Flowersfastly ( talk) 20:09, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
The lead sentence is supposed to say what made the person notable. There were approximately 1,000,000 slaves when Jefferson was president of which he owned 600 or 6/100s of 1%. If he had not pursued a political career, this article would probably not exist. Certainly his slave ownership is a key fact about him, but so are his political ideology and religious beliefs which are not in the first sentence. Also, being a slave owner is not an occupation. See also his article in Encylopedia Britannica. [13] It omits slave owner from the entire first paragraph. TFD ( talk) 22:04, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
I don't love the current phrasing either (I agree that "oral history" should probably be rephrased, e.g.), but the fact that DNA evidence could implicate other Jefferson males appears to be exculpatory in your proposed wording. Is that your intention? In the absence of any other evidence, yes, it could have been other Jeffersons, but experts look at all the relevant evidence and weigh in. I have already mentioned the consensus, and it is clear in the section itself. The view that treats it as an open question is a tiny minority among historians. This is why "alleged" does not fit and why deliberately inserting the minority view doesn't make sense in the lead IMO, unless it is clearly labelled as such. I am open to discussion on some aspects your edit, but there were parts of it that were deliberately casting doubt in a way that seems a bit misleading.-- MattMauler ( talk) 02:19, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
The general consensus among historians now agrees with Madison Hemings's version of the relationship between his mother and father ...
[T]oday most historians agree with the conclusion of a research committee convened by the Thomas Jefferson Foundation, at Monticello: Jefferson 'most likely was the father of all six of Sally Hemings's children.'
[T]he new scholarly consensus is that Jefferson and Hemings were sexual partners ... Whether Jefferson fathered all of Hemings's children is still unclear.
Most historians now agree that a preponderance of evidence—genetic, circumstantial, and oral historical—suggests that Jefferson was the father of all of Sally Hemings's children.-- MattMauler ( talk) 02:32, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
For a list of notable historians that don't subscribe to the Jefferson paternity theory see: Talk:Thomas Jefferson/Archive 19#References don't support claim. Then review other discussions here and here, for starters. The article already mentions that " they note the possibility that additional Jefferson males, including his brother Randolph Jefferson and any one of Randolph's four sons, or his cousin, could have fathered Eston Hemings or Sally Hemings's other children." A simple statement to this effect belongs in the lede if the lede is going to include anything about Jefferson's paternity based on DNA evidence. The DNA evidence to this effect is factual - it is not a "view". Important facts should not be censured because some individuals think it is not the popular view. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 02:40, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
Just chiming in to say I wasn't a fan of the recent changes. Felt watered down. Arkon ( talk) 19:26, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
"According to DNA evidence from surviving descendants and oral history, Jefferson fathered at least six children with Hemings, including four that survived to adulthood.[12] Evidence suggests that Jefferson started the relationship with Hemings when they were in Paris, where she arrived at the age of 14 when Jefferson was 44. By the time she returned to the United States at 16, she was pregnant."
1. There is no source for it. 2. William & Mary writes that Jefferson's course of study at W&M lasted for two years, and he then went on to read law for the next five years under George Wythe. If he had manage to get a BA after two years, I am sure it would have been mentioned at that site and aslo found in the standard biographies of Jefferson. Creuzbourg ( talk) 15:56, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
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Sally Hemings is described as "mixed-race", which is offensive. "Mixed" comes from "mixed-breed" which dates back to when black people weren't acknowledged as human beings. Please change it to say "biracial" 2603:7080:CC3B:3F00:D72:871E:6016:5406 ( talk) 04:52, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
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Archive 35 | ← | Archive 40 | Archive 41 | Archive 42 | Archive 43 |
We currently have five paragraphs in the lead section, but their content doesn't flow very well.
Paragraph 1 says why TJ is important but then it concludes awkwardly with "He was a land owner and farmer."
Paragraph 2 is a brief biography from birth and early career but not including presidency. This is fine.
Paragraph 3 is a summary of his presidency. This is fine.
Paragraph 4 describes prominent interests such as architecture, philosophy, and talks about his writings and his stance on religion. The farmer bit could be worked in here.
Paragraph 5 is a grab bag, with odd stuff thrown together. It has TJ's slave owner status, possible sex and offspring with his slave, then it jumps back to career highlights and how much he is loved today. Then it jumps again to criticism of his behavior as a slave owner then it jumps again to how great is his current status. This is where a clear-headed editor is needed to impose a smooth flow. Binksternet ( talk) 20:32, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
Paragraph 1 - last sentence
I have a real problem with this sentence so am trying to tease out its actual structure here:
Subject of the sentence is "he"/verb->produced/object->formative docs.
So then if we look at the first part of the sentence "A proponent of democracy,
republicanism, and individual rights motivating
American colonists to break from Great Britain and form a new nation", what is the subject/object of that incomplete phrase?
This phrase is a descriptor to "he" but seems somewhat grafted on to the main part of the sentence but when I tried to break it down (I do remember some of my lessons in sentence diagramming.) it doesn't quite make complete sense. I think "proponent of who motivated..." reads a little better and have changed it accordingly along with some other copy-edits. Shearonink ( talk) 04:40, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
General lede C/E:
While I was writing the following, Shearonink was editing the article. I mainly like those edits, specially switching the good and bad parts of the legacy so as to end on a positive note. I like having the ranking bit, which seemed to me well-incorporated into the paragraph and not stand-alone. Not a biggie, though. So I'm going to go ahead and post what I had written, for what it may be worth.
I would like to add this link [1] describing the three institutions who have replicated Thomas Jefferson's libraries in part or in whole. I would like to add the note at the end of this sentence (where the X is):
Retirement and later years Further information: Thomas Jefferson and education Following his retirement from the presidency, Jefferson continued his pursuit of educational interests; he sold his vast collection of books to the Library of Congress, and founded and built the University of Virginia.[205] X
All the best,
BarbPrior ( talk) 21:33, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
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This should be added as a source in that it gives the exact geographic location of the site. https://billiongraves.com/grave/Thomas-Jefferson/18711396 Annajyoung ( talk) 19:54, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
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Please add https://billiongraves.com/grave/Thomas-Jefferson/18711396 as a source for the burial of Thomas Jefferson, as it is geotagged and available for the public Annajyoung ( talk) 20:16, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
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70.162.226.36 ( talk) 01:14, 7 March 2018 (UTC)what in 1992? the George town became popular
In the memorials and honors section of this article I wrote that Charlottesville, Virginia has a city holiday in honor of Jefferson on or near April 13. It was deleted. Is it possible for someone to edit the article and place this information in it? Verification can be made by visiting
http://www.charlottesville.org/business/city-holiday-schedule. In addition to Charlottesville honoring Jefferson with a paid holiday, Albemarle County, where Jefferson was born, also closes their offices on his birthday. Verification here:
https://www.albemarle.org/event.asp?info=event&id=22678&displayed_date=. Thank you.
This is the fourth time in one day that Gwillhickers has placed the misspelled phrase "biding her a solemn farewell" into the article. I have removed it three times because it's mawkish and melodramatic. It's poor writing, and doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. Any other opinions about it? Binksternet ( talk) 04:33, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
Please correct the miswritten name of the author of "Thomas Jefferson's Ethics and the Politics of Human Progress: The Morality of a Slaveholder". The author is Ari Helo, not Ray Helo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Poppoosi ( talk • contribs) 07:44, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
After careful consideration, I came to the conclusion that the final sentence of the first paragraph ("He was a land owner and farmer.") portrayed an incomplete and incorrect picture of Jefferson:
My read of this sentence was that it was an attempt to describe Jefferson's status (land owner) and work (farmer) separate from his political career. As such, slavemaster was at least as important as farmer and potentially as important as land owner as well.
I have seen this edit immediately undone by three different editors without justification despite its historical certitude. I would like to understand the rationale for this. If it is an attempt to sanitize and whitewash Jefferson's biography, this is clearly not the place to do it. And if there is a belief that it is somehow secondary to Jefferson's status as land owner/farmer, I would like to hear the logic behind that assertion.
Thanks! jsmathematics aka Jason — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jsmathematics ( talk • contribs) 11:19, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
Thank you, and I will attempt to create a user page as suggested. I did review WP: NPOV but find that my edit is still an appropriate and important one. Here is my rationale.
Sincerely, jsmathematics (aka Jason). 1:35, 2 May 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jsmathematics ( talk • contribs)
Thomas Jefferson's biography should be edited so that the phrase, "greatest men *that* ever lived" reads "greatest men *who* ever lived"
This phrase appears under "Political, social, and religious views" Maezeppa 15:08, 27 May 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maezeppa1 ( talk • contribs)
This newly added sentence isn't structured correctly: Jefferson owned hundreds of slaves worked on his plantations or nail factory that some modern scholars believe contradicted his famous declaration that "all men are created equal." I reverted the change and then worked on the paragraph. YoPienso ( talk) 01:00, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
In the Slavery section, the following line is found:
Upon his death in 1826, Jefferson freed five male Hemings slaves in his will.[327]
In the "Final days, death, and burial" section, this line is found:
He gave instructions in his will for disposal of his assets,[251] including the freeing of Sally Hemings's children;[252] but his estate, possessions, and slaves were sold at public auctions starting in 1827.[253]
I realize both lines have cited references, however they contradict one another. While the instructions in the will clearly indicate he intended to free the Hemings, it did not happen, as is most strongly suggested by the line as currently written.
I am unclear how to correct this while maintaining the integrity of the original source material, but it must be corrected, as it gives a false impression. Nothing stopped him from freeing them while he lived, and he would have known his level of debt would hinder the desired execution of his will. To outright say he freed them is to utter a historical falsehood. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boblamont ( talk • contribs) 10:17, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for the link, it was a great read. I guess my concern would be the "but" in the sentence in the "Final days" section. In context, it sounds like he meant to, but was unable to, free them. It also leaves out the fact that he did, in fact let two of the children leave to pass into freedom prior to his death (as mentioned in the link you cited). Boblamont ( talk) 23:58, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
Just wanted to note that Thomas Jefferson considers authoring the Virginia Statute of Religious freedom one of his greatest accomplishments, yet there's almost no mention of it in the article :) I'm new to Wikipedia so sorry if this is in the wrong place!
LNej375 ( talk) 02:12, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
In the interest of making the section in Jefferson's box listing his children more complete, could someone link Harriet Hemmings as well? 2601:642:4401:114F:B934:BF53:4ED9:515A ( talk) 20:45, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 14:08, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
Could Thomas Jefferson be described as the father of what we call Libertarianism today in America? 75.128.82.247 ( talk) 16:43, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
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The opening sentence should include the fact that he was an enslaver along with his being a statesman, diplomat, lawyer, architect, and Founding Father. Ditto the articles about Madison, Monroe, Washington, Jackson, etc. SomeoneInATree ( talk) 17:42, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
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There are numerous additions I would like to make. I want first my 15 books added to the biblio.
Holowchak, Mark (2013). Framing a Legend: Exposing the Distorted History of Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings. Prometheus Books. ISBN 978-1-6161-4729-7. Holowchak, M. Andrew (2020). Rethinking Thomas Jefferson’s Views on Race and Slavery: “God’s justice can not sleep forever,” Cambridge Scholars Holowchak, M. Andrew (2020). Jefferson and Religion: The Incredibly Simple Religious Views of an American Messiah, Abilene Christian University Press. Holowchak, M. Andrew (2020). Thomas Jefferson: Psychobiography of an American Lion, Nova Publishers, ISBN 978-1536166576. Holowchak, M. Andrew (2020). Thirty-Six More Essays, Plus another, on the Probing Mind of Thomas Jefferson: “A sentimental traveller,” II, Cambridge Scholars Press, 2020. Holowchak, M. Andrew (2020). Thirty-Six Short Essays on the Probing Mind of Thomas Jefferson: “A sentimental traveler,” Cambridge Scholars, ISBN 978-1527541856. Holowchak, M. Andrew (2019). The Cavernous Mind of Thomas Jefferson, An American Savant, Cambridge Scholars, ISBN 978-1527538641. Holowchak, M. Andrew (2019). Jefferson’s Bible: Text with Introduction and Critical Commentary, Berlin: DeGruyter, ISBN 978-3110617566. Holowchak, M. Andrew (2017). Thomas Jefferson, Moralist, McFarland, ISBN 1476669244. Holowchak, M. Andrew (2017). Jefferson’s Political Philosophy and the Metaphysics of Utopia, Brill, ISBN 978-9004339415. Holowchak, M. Andrew (2017). The Elusive Thomas Jefferson: The Man behind the Myths (contributing co-editor with Brian Dotts, UGA), McFarland, ISBN 1476669252. Holowchak, M. Andrew (2014). Thomas Jefferson’s Philosophy of Education: A Utopian Dream, Taylor & Francis. Holowchak, M. Andrew (2014). Thomas Jefferson: Uncovering His Unique Philosophy and Vision, Prometheus Books, ISBN 1616149523. Holowchak, M. Andrew (2013). Thomas Jefferson and Philosophy: Essays on the Philosophical Cast of Jefferson’s Writings, Lexington Books, Holowchak, M. Andrew (2013). Framing a Legend: Exposing the Distorted History of Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings, Prometheus Books, Holowchak, M. Andrew (2012). Dutiful Correspondent: Philosophical Essays on Thomas Jefferson, Rowman & Littlefield, ISBN 1442220422. Mholowchak ( talk) 19:33, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
I don't have the privilege to modify this page. But I believe that the law on prohibiting the import of slaves went into effect 1808 not 1818 as said here.
/info/en/?search=Act_Prohibiting_Importation_of_Slaves — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edward ruggeri ( talk • contribs) 22:21, 10 December 2019 (UTC)
I added a question at Talk:Early life and career of_Thomas Jefferson#Ancestry (which doesn't have the readership of this main article). If someone knows of the information about Samuel Jefferson and Christopher Branch, that would be much appreciated!– CaroleHenson ( talk) 19:37, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
Since I don't have the silver permission I can't edit a glaring inaccuracy; maybe someone else can. The article erroneously states that after Jefferson resigned from Washington's cabinet, Washington never spoke to him again. This is patently untrue. The article cites Ron Chernow's book Alexander Hamilton as the source, p.427. I have the book and p. 427 does not even discuss Jefferson at all, let alone his resignation from Washington's cabinet. Washington's "dissatisfaction" with Jefferson is discussed on pp. 499-500, but even at that point Jefferson is still in Washington's cabinet.
Furthermore, after Jefferson resigned and after Washington completed his terms, the two men continued a correspondence in 1797 wherein they discussed to some extent Jay's Treaty, and when that discussion went sour they continued their correspondence with more innocuous topics such as farming techniques. They continued to correspond until newspapers printed an inflammatory letter Jefferson had written about Washington some years earlier—one he had denied to Washington he had written in which Washington was called "America's degenerate Samson and Solomon." Once Washington discovered Jefferson had indeed been the author of this letter, he ceased all communication with him. This was in mid-to-late 1797. [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.126.150.30 ( talk) 03:03, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
References
I believe a scandals section is in order because I think there is enough information and enough scandals. Not that the scandals directly involved Jefferson. There appear to be a total of 7 scandals: Burr Conspiracy, Wilkinson Misconduct, The Two Million Act, The Post Office Investigation, The Miranda Expedition, Josiah Quincy's Attempted Impeachment of Jefferson, and The New Orleans "Batture" case. Banner 1974 is the source for these scandals. Any objections or suggestions ?
Cmguy777 (
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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The introductory line is incomplete.
It reads: "Thomas Jefferson (April 13, 1743[a] – July 4, 1826) was an American statesman, diplomat, lawyer, architect, philosopher, and Founding Father who served as the third president..."
It SHOULD read: Thomas Jefferson (April 13, 1743[a] – July 4, 1826) was an American statesman, diplomat, lawyer, architect, philosopher, slave-owner and Founding Father who served as the third president..."
That last bit is a significant portion of who he was, more so than the each of the other individual parts. le Boojam ( talk) 17:46, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
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I request that you change the wording with regards to Sally Hemings. The article says that Jefferson has relations with "his slave" Sally Hemings. She was enslaved, not a slave. And she is referred to as a "mixed race woman". She was in fact a "mixed race child" when Jefferson began to have sexual relations with her. 32.211.91.212 ( talk) 14:24, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
In 1801, Jefferson indicated that slavery needed to be eliminated in the US. Source. Christopher Hitchens. Not sure about his primary source. Johnvag814 ( talk) 18:13, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
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The fact that Thomas Jefferson was a "plantation-owner, slaveholder" is totally irrelevant to the facts about Mr. Jefferson. He was one of the Founding Fathers who wanted to end slavery immediately, but compromised and included the ending by not allowing the further purchase of human beings for servitude. Also, since when is "plantation owner" hyphenated. We do not say car-owner or home-owner. You DO NOT HAVE MY PERMISSION TO MAKE MY IP ADDRESS PUBLICLY VISIBLE. I DO NOT AGREE TO THAT TERM AND YOU MUST HEREBY ABIDE BY THAT. 204.9.108.202 ( talk) 15:01, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
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The dna study of Jefferson proved that he did not Father her child as claimed. The study was based on haplotyping and the shared Mitrochondrial dna. The retraction in Nature was reported by a small handful of papers of the over 200 that claimed him to be the Father. The science clearly eliminates Jefferson while identifying some other member of the Jefferson family. The best article I have found on it is by the historian David Barton. It is not healthy to base this conclusion on hearsay or the popular vote of modern historians. My studies in haplotyping enabled me to study the evidence and agree with the retraction. Why would we ignore the science of this case?
https://wallbuilders.com/thomas-jefferson-sally-hemings-search-truth/ Leapingfrog ( talk) 07:36, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
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I could be wrong but I thought DNA testing answered this question. What historian disagrees? 96.240.128.124 ( talk) 15:46, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
Since the results of the DNA tests were made public, the consensus among academic historians has been that Jefferson had a sexual relationship with Sally Hemings and that he was the father of her son Eston Hemings ...Please see the footnote after that sentence for a list of sources and quotations from them. It includes academic historians commenting explicitly on this "consensus." All of them say that historians agree that Jefferson fathered Eston Hemings; two of them (expert sources, remember) say in addition that Jefferson fathered all six of Sally Hemings' children. The phrase,
though some experts dispute this conclusion, ends that section because of what the next paragraph states: There are some (a very few) experts who continue to say that there is insufficient evidence. I think the section accurately reflects the debate. There is a broad consensus, but some few experts who disagree. Presenting the evidence and letting the reader decide isn't what WP is about, but presenting legitimate expert views is, and they should be included with due weight on the mainstream or accepted view.-- MattMauler ( talk) 08:20, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
My view for this article is to emphasize that the Jefferson-Hemings connection, JHC, is just a debate among historians, not an indictment of paternity by Jefferson.Since initial misgivings in 1970, today in 2020, a SH-TJ "connection" is taken for granted in the mainstream scholarship of Jefferson's life. THE EDITORIAL ISSUE HERE revolves around the question, How much wp:due weight to give the person SH in the biography of TJ? I suggest that their relationship should be EQUAL to that historians give Abigail Adams in the biography of John Adams. I am beginning from the EDITORIAL JUDGMENT that Sally is equally important as Abigail in their respective relationships in the lives of the respective Presidents of the United States. So, two paragraphs for Sally in Tom's bio is warranted, and maybe more, but NOT four-times more.
@ TheVirginiaHistorian and TheVirginiaHistorian: I don't think the Federal Rules of Evidence, or any rules of evidence for courts of law, should be considered to be standards for historical inquiry regarding encyclopedias. Those rules need to be treated holistically and efficacy of the burden of proof standards in court cannot be understood without courts' restrictions on evidence such as hearsay. In History, we need to consider hearsay, and there was a lot of conflicting hearsay regarding Thomas and Randolph Jefferson. Most likely, I would agree that Thomas Jefferson was the biological father of at least some of Hemmings' children. However, we should acknowledge that debate exists surrounding the subject. CessnaMan1989 ( talk) 20:44, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
“Sally Hemings lived at Monticello as a house servant, friend and confidant of Thomas Jefferson from after his wife’s death, until Jefferson’s own death.”
"house servant, friend and confidant of Thomas Jefferson ..."). There were amicable aspects to their relationship; it was longterm; and historians acknowledge the complicated nature of their relationship (Gordon-Reed puts it bluntly: "Did they love each other?"). BUT we have a word for "house servants" who are unpaid and literally owned by their employers. The passage seems euphemistic to me, and I would have to be convinced with very strong sources for words like "friend," etc. if such sources even exist.-- MattMauler ( talk) 16:48, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
"definitively refute"them. We would need mainstream, scholarly sources to establish/affirm them before the material is added to the article (See WP:BURDEN).-- MattMauler ( talk) 01:33, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
...because right now it's in the fifth paragraph, buried in the second half of a lengthy sentence. That's pretty embarrassing. If you think this isn't all that important, well. If you think Jefferson wasn't all that bad, here you go; flip to p. 264. Pinging Stevenmitchell, Stephan Schulz, A.S. Williams, RandomCanadian, who spoke on these matters earlier. RandomCanadian, you can't just whisk this away as "presentism". Rather, this is a matter that should have been addressed, and acted on, a long time ago. Drmies ( talk) 16:04, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
From the perspective of an encyclopedia, the most notable details should be stressed. Most wealthy men in the South owned slaves at the time, so Jefferson's slave-owning is not particularly notable. It would be like describing a man from the same period as a horse-owner and slaves were viewed and treated like horses. Put it this way: there are plenty of slave-owners in history who don't merit mention in an encyclopedia. Now, slavery was an extremely important aspect of history, and slavery is definitely an important aspect of Thomas Jefferson's life, but it just isn't its most distinguishing aspects. CessnaMan1989 ( talk) 14:51, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
In 1774 Thomas Jefferson himself wrote the following: "Resolved that it be an instruction to the said deputies when assembled in General Congress with the deputies from the other states of British America to propose to the said Congress [ . . . ] colony of Virginia [ . . . ] colony of Virginia [ . . . ] to quiet the minds of your subjects in British America against any apprehensions of future incroachment, to establish fraternal love and harmony thro' the whole empire, and that that may continue to the latest ages of time, is the fervent prayer of all British America." A Summary View of the Rights of British America, July 1774, Papers 1:121--35 [9]
The Colony's name was not Virginia, the Colony's name was the "Colony of Virginia". Thomas Jefferson used "colony of Virginia" in his papers. It should not be necessary to click on a link to find out Jefferson was not born in "Virginia", but that he was born in the "Colony of Virginia". Jerry Stockton ( talk) 01:02, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
@ General Ization and Jerry Stockton: I tentatively believe there is a subtle difference between the terms used that was relevant in the context of The Proclamation of 1763 and a few court cases. The "Colony of Virginia" referred to settled and claimed areas and "Virginia" referred to Western territory that was claimed by not actually settled. I don't think this distinction matters for a general encyclopedia though. Maybe if we were writing a specialized summary for historians or dealing with legal documents, the distinction would be relevant, but for general knowledge, I don't think it matters. CessnaMan1989 ( talk) 14:59, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
How is consensus defined among acamemic historians concerning the Jefferson-Hemings connection (controversy) ? Was there a meeting or formal vote among historians ? The word "consensus" is unclear. Is there another word other than consensus that can be used ? Cmguy777 ( talk) 03:35, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
The Monticello website says, "Years after his wife’s death, Thomas Jefferson fathered at least six of Sally Hemings’s children. Four survived to adulthood and are mentioned in Jefferson’s plantation records: Beverly, Harriet, Madison, and Eston Hemings."[ https://www.monticello.org/thomas-jefferson/jefferson-slavery/thomas-jefferson-and-sally-hemings-a-brief-account/} So I suggest we just state it as a fact and avoid the compromise language. TFD ( talk) 04:11, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
Historians, as is their wont, have usually been more reserved in their evaluation of the Jefferson-Hemings relationship than most journalists. Nonetheless, as the conferences and publications devoted to the topic attest, the DNA revelations have strongly resonated among Jefferson scholars as well. Like the media, most historians now no longer seem to question the " truth " of the Jefferson-Hemings relationship; the questions raised almost invariably deal with the way we respond to such truth.
With the publication of E. A. Foster et al.'s study in Nature on October 31, 1998, what once was rumor now seems to be, if not proven, at least sufficiently probable that virtually all professional historians will accept that Jefferson was the father of at least one of Sally Hemings's chil- dren, her son Eston (the only one who left male-line descendants whose DNA might be tested)
What is the basis for this claim of a "mistake" and where is this described in more detail? Jefferson became vice president in the 1796 election because he came second in the electoral college. This was the system prior to the 12th amendment. It's true that lack of coordination between electors likely led to a different result than the parties envisaged, but I'm not convinced this amounts to a "mistake" as the article seems to suggest. Kidburla ( talk) 11:23, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
I concur Kidburla. There was no mistake as this was prior to the 12th Amendment. What is being misunderstood or incorrectly explained is that Hamilton believed that he had come up a with a scheme whereby a friendly vice president could be elected--and it was Hamilton who was mistaken in his approach to how it might work -- and the Vice Presidency went to the 2nd Place finisher as it had always up until that point. See: https://www.senate.gov/about/officers-staff/vice-president/VP_Thomas_Jefferson.htm Cglenn3932 ( talk) 16:32, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
In the context of the paragraph here, "introduced" is being used in two senses here: Small made introductions between the humans Jefferson, Wythe, and Fauquier; that is to say, these people all met each other in the real world and had subsequent direct interactions. By contrast, Small (presumably) introduced Jefferson to the ideas of Locke (deceased 1704), Bacon (deceased 1626), and Newton (deceased 1726/7). Given that Jefferson was born in 1743, we can assume that Small did not introduce Jefferson to them in the same sense as Wythe and Fauquier.
Smarter editors than I should figure out a better way to rephrase this.
174.57.79.121 ( talk) 14:17, 10 December 2020 (UTC)JTB
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96.5.241.167 ( talk) 15:35, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
If thid is not already in there add his birth day death day and the fact that he was the 3rd president
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Please remove the template "J Adams cabinet", as the vice presidency wasn't yet a cabinet position. 67.173.23.66 ( talk) 23:45, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
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Zicke523231 ( talk) 14:23, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
There is something missing in the Thomas Jefferson It doesn't explain how he died.
Someone please add that Jefferson is depicted in " Our Nation's 200th Birthday, The Telephone's 100th Birthday" by Stanley Meltzoff for Bell System? https://www.jklmuseum.com/tag/stanley-meltzoff/ 47.152.71.253 ( talk) 21:20, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
Thank you, Philos Armonikos, for restoring and citing Epicureanism as an influence. The only trouble now is that we have something in the lead that nowhere appears in the body. In the past I've fought hard to keep the article to a reasonable length, so I'm surprised at myself for now saying somebody should add Epicureanism to the body. YoPienso ( talk) 16:22, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
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98.179.157.202 ( talk) 14:13, 14 April 2021 (UTC) i am lerning about hin
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His first Vice President shot Alexander Hamilton second one died in office wife died in office his daughter was second wife from 1801-1809 his first one was from 1800-1801 his second one was from 1811-1812 the death of George Clinton he died on the same day July 4 1826 47.138.36.205 ( talk) 21:36, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
Can I add a list of his inventions in the inventions section Vinceroldz ( talk) 14:07, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
In the section on Religion we read that "He thought Americans would rationally create " Apiarian" religion, extracting the best traditions of every denomination." The link goes to beekeeping which is clearly wrong. I wonder if " Arian" is meant, Arianism being a well-known Christian heresy, but cannot verify this with online book sources. Is anyone able to find out what the source actually says? Bermicourt ( talk) 07:45, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
"In January 2000 (revised 2011),[374] the TJF report concluded that 'the DNA study ... indicates a high probability that Thomas Jefferson fathered Eston Hemings.'[374][375][r] The TJF also concluded that Jefferson likely fathered all of Heming's [sic] children listed at Monticello.[374][s]"
Those are bald-faced lies. I won't bother citing the evidence, because at [WP] all true sources are denounced by the commissariat as "unreliable." 2603:7000:B23E:3056:3C85:C72D:C12D:6829 ( talk) 23:38, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
I just raised the same issue that there is no concretely evidence of Thomas Jefferson fathering her children. Beatcop49 ( talk) 20:48, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
Hi, I think it would be appropriate to embed the philosophy infobox into Jefferson's infobox. I think it would be appropriate since he is to a large extent known for his philosophical work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kanclerz K-Tech ( talk • contribs) 16:28, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
I am considering writing an article about Rebecca Burwell. (I found out about her when writing the article for her daughter Elizabeth Jaquelin Ambler Brent Carrington. The two key areas of interest for me are that 1) she was orphaned as a child and raised by William Nelson and his wife and 2) she was a love interest of Thomas Jefferson beginning at about age 17. I am finding enough sources to build an article for her, including Some prominent Virginia families, Mr. Jefferson's Women, [ Love and War, mention of her in Founders Online, newspaper articles, correspondence by her daughter, etc.
If I write the article, I would like to connect her to Thomas Jefferson - perhaps in the main article, in the Early life and career of Thomas Jefferson article, or perhaps another that I am not aware of.
Do you have any thoughts about whether this is a good article to write - and, if so, the most appropriate place to connect her article to Jefferson?
I will take no responses to mean that there's no opposition to the article - and will figure out where to add Burwell - most likely the Early life and career of Thomas Jefferson article.
Thanks!– CaroleHenson ( talk) 15:47, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
"by blood they were legally "white"....Sally, appeared as free whites in the 1830 Albermarle County census" -page 10 https://www.tjheritage.org/scholars-commission-pdf
In this census data for 1830 there are racial categories for "white, colored and other". by 1850 the designation mulatto appears. By 1890 (60 years later). The designation quadroon and octaroon appears. https://www.census.gov/data-tools/demo/race/MREAD_1790_2010.html
"These children were three-quarters white, and, following the condition of their mother, they were enslaved from birth" /info/en/?search=Betty_Hemings — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:A0C6:1200:B05F:C789:EFD8:4AF ( talk) 09:45, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
"Eston Hemings changed his racial identity to white and his surname to Jefferson after moving from Ohio to Wisconsin in 1852." https://www.monticello.org/thomas-jefferson/jefferson-slavery/thomas-jefferson-and-sally-hemings-a-brief-account/monticello-affirms-thomas-jefferson-fathered-children-with-sally-hemings/
"the idea that white slave-master fathers would sell their own children in slave markets raised Northerners' concerns." /info/en/?search=White_slave_propaganda — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:A0C6:1200:B05F:C789:EFD8:4AF ( talk) 11:25, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
There had been no concrete evidence that Thomas Jefferson fathered any of Sally Hemings’ children. There is Jefferson DNA no doubt, it that only indicates that a Jefferson was involved with her. Beatcop49 ( talk) 20:47, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
The citation for "many historians" or some kind of consensus here amongst historians is always just a book Annette Gordon-Reed wrote that you cannot check the citation unless you purchase the book. It appears the consensus amongst historians is the book being cited for that is historically flawed to the point it looks intentionally tampering with the historical accuracy by the author to fit a narrative. The DNA test is not conclusive. At best it proves, a Y DNA relation to a Jefferson Paternal DNA line to a single Hemings. This leaves 25 suspects in Virginia. On closer scrutiny, How many people living in Virginia, or even Paris, are distant relatives? Considering Sally Hemings shares 75% of her DNA with Europeans with a 1700 world population of half a million. Furthermore, from 1830 to the present there's roughly 200 years to "contaminate" that DNA with a paternal relative of Jefferson, botching the evidence completely. The DNA test is not a smoking gun. This is not sound stuff in history, science or wiki project. The entire thing is "reaching" at best. With wiki citations checking obfuscated by hiding them behind paywalls to increase the likelihood its uncited. Furthermore there's a complex and sore historical network of slavery ties and familial ties, where we know Jefferson and Hemings are relatives by Jeffersons wifes blood relations to Sally Hemings, Along with leaving things to your slaves in wills and oddly paying them salaries and buying things like 100 head of cabbages from them. So, any descendants could declare relation as matter of course either through Familial relations like common law relatives/adoption or, in this case blood relation by law.
"at the top of the enslaved hierarchy. Betty Hemings' other children and their descendants, also mixed race, were bestowed privileged assignments, as well. None worked in the fields." this wiki quote on the Sally Hemings page rubs me the wrongest. Considering there's historical records for 100 head of cabbage being purchased by Jefferson for $2. In some attempt to denigrate the importance of food production or something. With the same uncited citations from a single book you should buy from an author who's work, there, is scrutinized by a majority of accredited historians. This one we have proof that this is entirely opinion and patently false by that author. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:A0C6:1200:A96B:63CC:FEF7:B892 ( talk) 21:57, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
The level of historical revisionism, we've entered into is just bizarre, and has long entered into levels of crazy town. I say we just go full bore down that path and say no white people ever farmed anything and Thomas Jefferson rode his relatives around his plantation like little horses. If you want to see the citation then buy my book(self published on Amazon) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:A0C6:1200:A96B:63CC:FEF7:B892 ( talk) 22:09, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
That last one that rubs me the wrongest. Is a certain level of implied denigration and disrespect to the ancestors of Hemings, former slaves, their ancestors, farmers, gardeners or anyone that ever reaped the fruits of their labor. To imply those 100 cabbages never existed and whitewash them from history. to reap the rewards of your work and time dedicated to 100 cabbages, must be a proud moment. That's alot of success. And 160 years later some one comes along to try and deny that ever happened, for whatever motives. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:A0C6:1200:A96B:63CC:FEF7:B892 ( talk) 22:25, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
Im starting to wonder if this is all a setup where it creates an environment to go full Pol Pot and eliminate the intelligentsia and academia and Im starting to have less of a problem with that if academia is dedicating themselves to historical revisionism of uncitable falsities, like Jefferson rode his relatives like little horses, Because at that point, to academia, you no longer serve a purpose and your time would be better spent forced into a life of farming. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:A0C6:1200:A96B:63CC:FEF7:B892 ( talk) 22:37, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
We would like to add "slaveholder" to the initial list of President Jefferson's identities/accomplishments (first sentence); it was an important part of his existence, and this is the most likely thing that people will read to get a glimpse of his history. Enslaving others tells us more about a person's life and character than being an architect. So the proposed first sentence would be "Thomas Jefferson (April 13, 1743[a] – July 4, 1826) was an American statesman, diplomat, lawyer, architect, philosopher, slaveholder, and Founding Father who served as the third president of the United States from 1801 to 1809." Flowersfastly ( talk) 20:09, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
The lead sentence is supposed to say what made the person notable. There were approximately 1,000,000 slaves when Jefferson was president of which he owned 600 or 6/100s of 1%. If he had not pursued a political career, this article would probably not exist. Certainly his slave ownership is a key fact about him, but so are his political ideology and religious beliefs which are not in the first sentence. Also, being a slave owner is not an occupation. See also his article in Encylopedia Britannica. [13] It omits slave owner from the entire first paragraph. TFD ( talk) 22:04, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
I don't love the current phrasing either (I agree that "oral history" should probably be rephrased, e.g.), but the fact that DNA evidence could implicate other Jefferson males appears to be exculpatory in your proposed wording. Is that your intention? In the absence of any other evidence, yes, it could have been other Jeffersons, but experts look at all the relevant evidence and weigh in. I have already mentioned the consensus, and it is clear in the section itself. The view that treats it as an open question is a tiny minority among historians. This is why "alleged" does not fit and why deliberately inserting the minority view doesn't make sense in the lead IMO, unless it is clearly labelled as such. I am open to discussion on some aspects your edit, but there were parts of it that were deliberately casting doubt in a way that seems a bit misleading.-- MattMauler ( talk) 02:19, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
The general consensus among historians now agrees with Madison Hemings's version of the relationship between his mother and father ...
[T]oday most historians agree with the conclusion of a research committee convened by the Thomas Jefferson Foundation, at Monticello: Jefferson 'most likely was the father of all six of Sally Hemings's children.'
[T]he new scholarly consensus is that Jefferson and Hemings were sexual partners ... Whether Jefferson fathered all of Hemings's children is still unclear.
Most historians now agree that a preponderance of evidence—genetic, circumstantial, and oral historical—suggests that Jefferson was the father of all of Sally Hemings's children.-- MattMauler ( talk) 02:32, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
For a list of notable historians that don't subscribe to the Jefferson paternity theory see: Talk:Thomas Jefferson/Archive 19#References don't support claim. Then review other discussions here and here, for starters. The article already mentions that " they note the possibility that additional Jefferson males, including his brother Randolph Jefferson and any one of Randolph's four sons, or his cousin, could have fathered Eston Hemings or Sally Hemings's other children." A simple statement to this effect belongs in the lede if the lede is going to include anything about Jefferson's paternity based on DNA evidence. The DNA evidence to this effect is factual - it is not a "view". Important facts should not be censured because some individuals think it is not the popular view. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 02:40, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
Just chiming in to say I wasn't a fan of the recent changes. Felt watered down. Arkon ( talk) 19:26, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
"According to DNA evidence from surviving descendants and oral history, Jefferson fathered at least six children with Hemings, including four that survived to adulthood.[12] Evidence suggests that Jefferson started the relationship with Hemings when they were in Paris, where she arrived at the age of 14 when Jefferson was 44. By the time she returned to the United States at 16, she was pregnant."
1. There is no source for it. 2. William & Mary writes that Jefferson's course of study at W&M lasted for two years, and he then went on to read law for the next five years under George Wythe. If he had manage to get a BA after two years, I am sure it would have been mentioned at that site and aslo found in the standard biographies of Jefferson. Creuzbourg ( talk) 15:56, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
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Sally Hemings is described as "mixed-race", which is offensive. "Mixed" comes from "mixed-breed" which dates back to when black people weren't acknowledged as human beings. Please change it to say "biracial" 2603:7080:CC3B:3F00:D72:871E:6016:5406 ( talk) 04:52, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
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