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To ALL of you, I extend my best wishes for 2016! Here's to our average reader, and here's to a 2016 GA for TJ. How about we express this Happy New Year in each of TJ's languages? I have the English covered. Hoppyh ( talk) 21:29, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
Draft #4 proposal on West Point.
In 1802, the President and Congress established the United States Military Academy at West Point.[116] During the election campaign and at the beginning of his administration, Jefferson faced open contempt by many officers and appointed officials in the Army establishment. The constitutionally elected president undertook to “Republicanize” the Army to ensure its loyalty to future elected administrations. The military academy was central to his long term purpose consistent with his devotion to education. But Jefferson also immediately replaced Federalists in government, eliminated offices by legislation and insisted that new appointments went to the Republican faithful as a part of wide-ranging reform in other departments as well.<Crackel, Theodore J., in McDonald, Robert ed. 2004 p.100> This was consistent with Jefferson’s mature “contextualist” interpretation of the Constitution in which he allowed broad interpretation for the federal government in nationalistic spheres but still insisted on strictly enumerated powers when they were shared with the states.<Mayer, David N. in McDonald, ed. 2004 p.55> Subsequently from 1802-1833, West Point alumni both in uniform and as civilian leaders furnished nationalist administrative and executive leadership in the frontier territories.<Watson, Samuel J. in McDonald, Robert ed. 2004 p.155>
Jefferson’s answer was a carefully considered program of reformation that included the replacement of many Federalists, the accommodation of others, an insistence that new appointments go only to the Republican faithful, and, in some cases, the simple expedient of eliminating offices through legislative action. Jefferson reacted in much the same way to both the civil and military establishments that he interited — he employed a carefully modulated program of reform that would ultimately bring them into line with the broad aspirations and goals of the new Republican regime. —Crackel in McDonald 2007. p.100
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Pushing to include the Military Peace Establishment Act, Part 2
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Please stop!
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Pushing to include the Military Peace Establishment Act, Part 3
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Vote to voteHere is the paragraph that was deleted from the article. Please vote on whether to put the paragraph up for a vote. Not trying to "wack a mole" But Gwillhickers requested a paragraph be put in on West Point. This is a good faith edit. Not trying to rock the West Point vote. This is not a vote to put in the article but a vote to see if the paragraph is worth voting on. Cmguy777 ( talk) 05:32, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
References
Oppose FOR THE THIRD TIME Hoppyh ( talk) 16:40, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
Consensus is not gained by voting. Voting clarifies the minority position which is to be accommodated by the majority in consensus building. It is not clear that the majority on excluding West Point as an academy in the introduction to Jefferson's presidency is a majority to exclude a broader discussion of Jefferson’s administrative reforms during his presidency. YoPienso, Alanscottwalker, Coemgenus, Hoppyh all see West Point as an academy of lesser import than UVA in Jefferson’s correspondence and in the literature, and so wish to dismiss it from the introduction part of the Presidency section. Gwillhickers, Cmguy777, TVH, are interested in West Point as an educational institution, they are joined by RJensen and TFD who are interested in West Point only in a larger context of political reform, which is given weight in the literature. So abandoning West Point as an academy does not mean no mention of it at all anywhere. Jefferson’s political reforms make the partisan Federalist administration holdovers conform to the goals of the Constitutionally elected Republican party, which includes a larger discussion of orderly replacement at vacancy, abolition of offices, and firings. In this larger context the USMA is a part of republicanizing the Army officer corps by linking its cadets to Congressional appointment, addressing Jefferson’s prolific concern in his correspondence over a standing army. West Point need not be wedged into the introductory section of the Presidency, it can be mentioned in a section on Jefferson’s political reforms. Meacham quotes the French envoy’s report to Paris, “Mr. Jefferson doesn’t at all hesitate to say that the previous administration conducted itself under anti-republican maxims” and the new president was determined to correct such “inequalities and errors”. As Meacham observes, “Jefferson had the strength to do largely as he wished.” Regardless of Federalist protests which are amply represented in the historical literature, Jefferson had the votes in both houses of Congress to do as he wished. We should report it in his biography. (Meacham p. 373-374) TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 11:19, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
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Pushing to include the Military Peace Establishment Act, Part 4
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VoteI will put the paragraph up for vote then. Please let me clarify that West Point does not have to be included or excluded in the article. Cmguy777 ( talk) 01:17, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
JUST A MINUTE HERE!! I just realized you put the paragraph up for a vote with no consensus from your previous "vote to vote." This demonstrates serious WP:IDHT, so I'm hatting the whole thing. YoPienso ( talk) 02:24, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
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The following is from WP:AS on Article Size: A page of about 30 kB to 50 kB of readable prose, which roughly corresponds to 4,000 to 10,000 words, takes between 30 and 40 minutes to read at average speed, which is right on the limit of the average concentration span of 40 to 50 minutes. At 50 kB and above it may be beneficial to move some sections to other articles and replace them with summaries per Wikipedia:Summary style... With Jefferson clearly above that level, I believe my assertion is reasonable that the article is already beyond the length and breadth for the average reader. Nevertheless, I do understand there is no agreement on this. Hoppyh ( talk) 22:15, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
I agree - the number ten is arbitrary - it is an expression of the hope we could get more editors' input. It would be great if we could somehow agree that the article is already an exception on length, and readers who want more detail can use the links to other articles. We will not get anywhere without an agreement on this. And I don't think the numbers I quoted from WP above about attention span are comparable to books. Hoppyh ( talk) 22:33, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
In the Slavery section it says that Jefferson is considered to be a "benevolent slave owner". This is a sketchy claim that could mean any number of things. Jefferson and slavery is a controversial issue and should get a clarifying phrase in the biography that doesn't require the reader to search through other articles for simple clarification. Not long ago I tried adding ...who didn't over work his slaves and provided well for them, but this was deleted, so I have added the clarify tag. If we can clarify things in this article with a short phrase we should do so. Imo, there is no pressing reason why we should not. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 21:06, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
When reliable sources disagree, the typical solution is to summarize their arguments for a position. The Smithsonian article contains a section criticizing previous views on the content slaves of Jefferson as examples of "misconceptions and sappy prose". Then discusses at length Jefferson's views of his slaves as investments and his development on an influential theory on their financial value. Jefferson is quoted as estimating "I allow nothing for losses by death, but, on the contrary, shall presently take credit four per cent. per annum, for their increase over and above keeping up their own numbers."
Jefferson began trying to increase the birth rate of the slaves and abandoned any plans for their potential emancipation. As the article points out: "The date of Jefferson’s calculation aligns with the waning of his emancipationist fervor. Jefferson began to back away from antislavery just around the time he computed the silent profit of the “peculiar institution.” "
The article then addresses the fact of how Jefferson treated slaves aged 10 to 12: "A letter has recently come to light describing how Monticello’s young black boys, “the small ones,” age 10, 11 or 12, were whipped to get them to work in Jefferson’s nail factory, whose profits paid the mansion’s grocery bills. This passage about children being lashed had been suppressed—deliberately deleted from the published record in the 1953 edition of Jefferson’s Farm Book, containing 500 pages of plantation papers. That edition of the Farm Book still serves as a standard reference for research into the way Monticello worked."
Then the article addresses the hierarchy of slaves in Monticello and how slaves of different rank were given very different treatments: "The higher you stood in the hierarchy, the better clothes and food you got; you also lived literally on a higher plane, closer to the mountaintop. A small minority of slaves received pay, profit sharing or what Jefferson called “gratuities,” while the lowest workers received only the barest rations and clothing. Differences bred resentment, especially toward the elite household staff."
The article covers how the boys aged 10 to 16 worked at Jefferson's nail factory, and how their output affected their future work careers. Those deemed successful could receive further training as artisans and house slaves, the failures were demoted to field slaves. The article points out: "The work was tedious in the extreme. Confined for long hours in the hot, smoky workshop, the boys hammered out 5,000 to 10,000 nails a day, producing a gross income of $2,000 in 1796."
Then the article covers an incident in 1798, when one of Jefferson's foremen was reluctant to whip the slaves under his care and this caused a delay in the work schedule. They apparently had to call on another overseer to whip the slaves more and make them work on time.
Then the article discusses a matter of historical censorship and forgery. A historian by the name of Edwin Betts came across a section of Jefferson’s Farm Book covering the whipping of child slaves for truancy. "Betts decided that the image of children being beaten at Monticello had to be suppressed, omitting this document from his edition. He had an entirely different image in his head; the introduction to the book declared, “Jefferson came close to creating on his own plantations the ideal rural community.” Betts couldn’t do anything about the original letter, but no one would see it, tucked away in the archives of the Massachusetts Historical Society. The full text did not emerge in print until 2005."
Then the article reports on how Betts' censorship influenced the inaccurate work of other historians. The article names (with text samples) as examples Jack McLaughlin, Merrill Peterson, Joseph Ellis, and Dumas Malone. All inaccurate on the level of whipping involved in the daily operations of Monticello and all presenting a far too benevolent image of Jefferson himself. Some of these quotes seem laughably bad: "on rare occasions, and as a last resort, he [Jefferson] ordered overseers to use the lash."
I don't think I have to continue with the summary. Frankly, I find that the article sheds some light on the business practices of Jefferson and avoids demonizing or romanticising the slave-owner. Dimadick ( talk) 21:27, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
It would seem we could avoid a lot of drawn out debate if we just regarded page length for what it is -- a guideline, and if we allowed various additions of context so long as it is well sourced, keeping in mind of course that there are limits to everything. Most importantly, some editors need to be more willing to compromise. Overall, we are only debating page length and the amount of details. Time and again I have seen details removed from sections in cases where there were only a few to begin with. The idea of "too many details" should only be an issue here if there are many dozens of them of them and when they are clearly tangential to the topic/section. Again, to sum up a topic adequately we need to include all the important details. The daughter articles are for in depth coverage where we can add more of the lesser details. Above all, context is important and needs to be embraced here regardless of daughter articles. As it is, to get a clear picture of Jefferson the person (ala his biography) a reader is presently required to break away to numerous other articles. Presently this biography begs the clarification needed and why? tags. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 20:52, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
Holiday is over -- back to the grind. I remain amazed that there is only one sentence covering West Point in what is supposed to become a Good Article, while simple points of context (i.e.British subject) are argued at length as if someone was trying to introduce some radical proposal. Editors here need to lighten up. TVH has done a wonderful job with his proposals, cross referencing Jefferson's military Academy with his political philosophy and such. We should cover West Point with just a bit more context, tying it in with Jefferson's thinking regarding Republicanism, any partisanship, along with his founding of the University of Virginia, where many of his ideas for West Point were incorporated -- including military exercises throughout the entire course for all grades of students. This can easily be accomplished with a few added sentences -- yet there is this monumental disagreement. No one is proposing a half page of coverage -- however, one sentence for West Point is clearly ignoring the scholarship out there (BTW, the scholarship includes more than just biographies.) In any case, this article will never reach GA if various editors continue to behave in such a unyielding and arrogant manner. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 22:34, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
You think that is more important than say writing the Declaration of Independence or becoming president? TFD ( talk) 21:04, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
Ellis (2008) discusses Indian removal in terms of Jeffersons Louisiana Purchase, but this has been edited out or censured by Dcpoliticaljunkie. Slavery did remain intact...Jefferson only gave a one year moretorium on allowing slaves to be brought into the territory. Cmguy777 ( talk) 00:10, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
"Slavery did remain intact" in the Louisiana Purchase and in Illinois and in what would later be Missouri for the previous French settlers with slaves --- whom Jefferson would not arbitrarily strip of their property before the law. He was anxious to a) make loyal US citizens of the French, b) incorporate their settlement as our own, c) not give grounds for French government protest. This is not the same thing as promoting slavery as an institution in the republic on principle or as secretive deviousness, which is the out-of-context implication.
Jefferson sought Native American farming and integration, peace along frontiers, purchase of lands for settlement, and removal of military of allies of the British who abrogated their treaties with the US during the Revolution and War of 1812. Those treaties cannot anachronistically said to be in force after tribes make war in violation of them in some sort of race-based double standard for modern analysis. "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me." may be an operating international principle in the law of nations or it may only be a dictum of practical politicians. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 10:24, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
There was slavery in the Louisiana Territory previous to Jefferson’s administration among French settlers there in New Orleans, St. Louis and surrounding areas; he did not provide for their removal. Jefferson did not have the votes to restrict additional domestic slave importation in the Louisiana Purchase beyond one year. Does Ellis dispute that; where were the votes to come from? Slaves were held as property in United States law, whereas there is evidence that Jefferson saw those held as slaves to be people with fundamental rights to self government, hence the popularity of American Colonization Society among Jefferson’s contemporaries in Virginia leadership. While I am for trimming several article sections, I am for expansion of the coverage devoted to Jefferson’s presidential reform of the executive branch to conform with election results from the people in a republic, and I am for expanding coverage of Indian removal especially British military allies in context.
I view Ellis (2008) is a reliable source for modern perspective. Does Ellis omit that the majority of Native Americans east of the Mississippi were British military allies in the Revolution? Does he fail to distinguish among US allies and its enemies in war without distinction on this point? Does he omit continuing British armament of its military allies after the Revolution and continuing occupation of British forts on US soil supplying them? Does he omit US opposition to that policy?
As late as negotiations for the Treaty of Ghent in 1814, British diplomacy had held out the promise of an independent Native American nation from the Great Lakes south to the Ohio River as a buffer state between the US and Canada. Does Ellis not take US opposition to that policy into account? The Treaty of Paris had nominally ceded British claims to the Northwest Territory west to the Mississippi River based on the military defeats of British and Native-American allies in the West by Virginian and French settler allies. Where does Ellis dispute this? TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk)
Noting removal of tribes that violated peace treaties with the US by making war as allies of Great Britain subsequent to the US winning the war, is an important circumstance of Jefferson’s administration; another source besides Ellis should be found if he is silent on the context of the removal.
Here’s what Jefferson’s party said by treaty in the administration following, --- it is the first instance of a UK-US military alliance I can find: “Whereas the traffic in slaves is irreconcilable with the principles of humanity and justice, and whereas both his Majesty and the United States are desirous of continuing their efforts to promote its entire abolition, it is hereby agreed that both the contracting parties shall use their best endeavors to accomplish so desirable an object." — Article the Tenth, Treaty of Ghent, 1814. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 08:16, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
In the lede it says that Jefferson was an "American lawyer", which seems a bit misleading because during this time (1767+) there was no 'America' in terms of the country that exists today. Wouldn't it be more adequate to simply say that he practiced law, or that he was a Colonial lawyer? Today the term America is generally understood to mean the United States which didn't officially exist until after independence. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 19:53, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
It would be pretty boring if people only told you things you already knew. But rather than descend into a morass of irrelevant argumentation, let's get back to the issue. People living in the American colonies were called Americans, both by people in the UK and in the colonies. Contemporary writers still refer to them as Americans. The fact that the American states only united in the late 18th century to form a nation called the "United States of America" is irrelevant. Now if they had called the new nation "Columbia" or something new, it might be different. TFD ( talk) 22:55, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
None of which means he was not an American before 1776. Incidentally, is there any reason why you use extremely wide
If Jefferson did not practice law after July 4, 1776, then putting in "colonial American lawyer" is appropriate. Is there anyway to substantiate he did not practice law after July 4, 1776? Cmguy777 ( talk) 21:30, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
What do you guys think of omitting lawyer from the first line of the lede? [6] It's mentioned at the end of the paragraph so it's redundant and, frankly, I don't think lawyer is the most important thing Jefferson is known for so it shouldn't be the first line anyway...
Rjensen mentions Jefferson abandoned the practice. But he never tried a case after 1774...That makes him a practing colonial British subject lawyer. Dc's edit does not emphasis being a lawyer, although he did try about 7 freedom cases while he practiced, his other cases were apparently for wealthy clients. If the article does not state so now I suggest putting in the article that Jefferson abandoned his law practice in 1774 seeking the public arena or office. Cmguy777 ( talk) 01:30, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
I just discovered this guideline, Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia, which I didn't know existed. It's pertinent when daughter ("child") articles are created or enlarged from this one. YoPienso ( talk) 19:14, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
This is yet another misrepresentation, as several editors, very knowledgeable of Jefferson, and major contributors btw, feel we should have the discretion, per guidelines, to write a comprehensive article and include various hitherto missing and general facts. Since there is a marginal consensus, what would your suggestions for a fair compromise be? Remember, there was a standing consensus to include many of the things that were removed, often without discussion, so perhaps we should summon all involved editors and get a more accurate account on the matter, that is, if you can't present us with any pressing reasons not to. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 21:05, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
I am leaving this article again. I am convinced that this article will never improve in the forseeable future and rather, it will be both over-long and at the same time it will not actually offer the nuanced complexity required - eg., it will not show the contradictions of the man, that scholarship shows. (The pre-good-article-drive article was criticized as by the reviewer for such things and it appears it will be so again). -- Alanscottwalker ( talk) 20:32, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
Negative POV can be subjective. Slaves did increase to over a million by natural reproduction and were moved to the Louisiana Territory. Jefferson signifigantly decreased the slave importation by banning the international slave trade although there was some smuggling in Louisiana. Noting Jefferson did this without a Civil War. Stating facts is not POV and as far as I know there are no negative judgemental comments concerning Jefferson in the article. That would be POV. But I do not believe the discussion of slavery and/or Indian removal and the Louisiana Territory should be censured from the article. Cmguy777 ( talk) 21:38, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
While there was a marginal consensus not to mention West Point in the lede I don't recall any consensus to cover this topic with only one sentence. We should really say something more here, esp since the topic ties in with Jefferson's political philosophy, his ideas for national defense and the Univ of Virginia, which was largely modeled after West Point. These general and definitive ideas could be covered inside one or two more sentences. Yes? No? -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 20:38, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
Yes -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 20:38, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
No -- unless it is a part of a paragraph on executive branch reform. see comments. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 15:54, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
More should be said as the existing coverage is not par with the scholarship, which includes more than biographies. It would seem that the existing coverage is hardly a compromise. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 20:41, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
So be it.
As a good number of editors expressed reasons to cover West Point with a fair measure of historical context, two sentences seems to be more than a fair compromise. We should wait another couple days or so to see if there are any remaining and pressing reasons not to include the draft. If we can clear this hurdle it would seem we can go ahead, iron out any remaining tweaks and points of context and continue our efforts to provide a well written and truly good article for the readers. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 19:32, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
In spite of difference among some editors it would seem that a 'GA' is still within sight. Are there any major issues that need to be addressed before we consider renominating the article? -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 19:32, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
The section suffers from elements of an historiographic essay for scholars which takes away from describing the events in an encyclopedic style for the general reader. Add link to Embargo Act of 1807. Reduce length about 15%-20%.
The British conducted raids on American shipping and kidnapped seamen in 1806–07; thousands of Americans were thus impressed into their military service. In response, Jefferson issued a call for a boycott of British goods; Congress passed the Non-importation Act but it was never enforced. While Jefferson sought a treaty to ease relations through negotiations by James Monroe and William Pinkney, the result lacked any provisions to end impressment.[169]
The British ship HMS Leopard fired upon the USS Chesapeake off the Virginia coast in June 1807, kidnapping American citizens, and Jefferson prepared for war.[170] He issued a proclamation banning armed British ships from U.S. waters. He presumed unilateral authority to call on the states to prepare 100,000 militia and ordered the purchase of arms, ammunition, and supplies, writing, "The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation [than strict observance of written laws]". The USS Revenge, dispatched to demand an explanation from the British government, was also fired upon. Jefferson called for a special session of Congress in October to enact an embargo or in the alternative consider war.[171]
Despite Napoleon’s extending the Berlin Decree and Britain’s redoubling efforts at impressment, the war fever of the summer faded. Jefferson asked for and received the Embargo Act of 1807, an alternative that allowed the U.S. more time to build up defensive works, militias and naval forces. Later historians have seen irony in Jefferson's assertion of such federal power in a national sphere of affairs.[172]
Secretary of State James Madison supported the embargo with equal vigor to Jefferson,[173] while Treasury Secretary Gallatin opposed it, due to its indefinite time frame and the risk it posed to the policy of American neutrality.[174] The U.S. economy suffered, criticism grew, and opponents began evading the embargo. Instead of retreating, Jefferson sent federal agents to secretly track down smugglers and violators.[175] Three acts were passed in Congress during 1807 and 1808, called the Supplementary, the Additional, and the Enforcement acts.[170] Though the government could not prevent American vessels from trading with the European belligerents once they had left American ports, the embargo triggered a devastating decline in exports.[170]
Most historians consider Jefferson's embargo to have been ineffective and harmful to American interests.[176] Others, however, portray it as an innovative, nonviolent measure which aided France in its war with Britain while preserving American neutrality.[178] Jefferson believed that the failure of the embargo was due to selfish traders and merchants showing a lack of "republican virtue", and maintained that had the embargo been widely observed, it would have avoided war in 1812.[179]
In December 1807 Jefferson announced his intention to not to seek a third term, leaving Madison and Gallatin in almost total control of affairs.[180] Shortly before leaving office in March 1809, Jefferson signed the repeal of the Embargo. In its place the Non-Intercourse Act was passed, but it proved no more effective.[170]
TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 15:02, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
Again addressing the length consideration voiced by multiple editors, a section reduced by approximately 15-20%, --- primarily by removing historiographic essay material of interest to scholars which militates against an encyclopedic style for the general reader. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 15:02, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
I noticed that Tucker's work, 1837, is used as a source in the biography, which is one of the oldest accounts to speak of on Jefferson. Tucker was the Dumas Malone of his day. In any case, I have no objections but thought maybe some discussion might be needed, as we're supposed to use modern sources (only?), unless there is a consensus for its use. I support the use. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 20:03, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
Proposed rewrite, cutting approximately 15-20%. Portions copy edited, ellipses note sentences deleted. smaller image.
Soon after returning from France, Jefferson accepted Washington's invitation to serve as Secretary of State.[78] ...The first major issues before the Cabinet were the national debt and the permanent location of the capital. Jefferson opposed a national debt preferring each state to retire its own, while Hamilton, desired consolidation of various states' debts by the federal government.[81] The second major issue was the capital's permanent location. Hamilton favored a capital close to the major commercial centers of the Northeast, while Washington, Jefferson, and other agrarians, wanted it located to the south.
After lengthy deadlock, the Compromise of 1790 was struck locating the capital on the Potomac River, while the federal government assumed the war debts of all 13 states.[82] In May 1792 Jefferson, alarmed at the political rivalries taking shape, wrote to Washington, urging him to run for re-election that year as a unifying influence.[83] He entreated the president to rally the citizenry to a party that would defend democracy against the corrupting influence of banks and monied interests, as espoused by the Federalists. Historians recognize this letter as the earliest delineation of Democratic-Republican Party principles.[84] ...
Jefferson supported France against Britain when the two nations fought in 1793, though his arguments in the Cabinet were undercut by French Revolutionary envoy Edmond-Charles Genêt's open scorn for President Washington….[86] In his discussions with British Minister George Hammond, Jefferson tried unsuccessfully to persuade the British to acknowledge their violation of the Treaty of Paris, to vacate their posts in the Northwest, and to compensate the U.S. for slaves whom the British had freed at the end of the war. Seeking a return to private life, Jefferson resigned the cabinet position in December 1793, perhaps seeking to bolster his political influence from outside the administration.[87]
After the Washington administration negotiated the unpopular Jay Treaty with Great Britain (1794), Jefferson saw a cause around which to rally his party and organized opposition from Monticello.[88] The treaty, designed by Hamilton, aimed to reduce tensions and increase trade. Jefferson warned that it would increase British influence and subvert republicanism, calling it "the boldest act [Hamilton and Jay] ever ventured on to undermine the government".[89] The Treaty passed, but when it expired in 1805 during Jefferson’s administration, it was not renewed. Jefferson continued his pro-French stance; during the violence of the Reign of Terror, he declined to disavow the revolution because "To back away from France would be to undermine the cause of republicanism in America."[90]
TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 13:59, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
The proposal uses existing sources, eliminates some duplication, ce greater focus on Jefferson's activity as Secretary of State, reducing its length approximately 15-20%. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 13:59, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
Done following the week's review. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 06:11, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
As @ Cmguy777: mentions above, we need to adopt a single citation convention. Currently there are two conventions used extensively in this article. (Harvard and the SFN) I am not sure if this is a GA requirement -- have to check -- but it most certainly is a FA requirement. IMO we should go with the SFN convention. Either way, this is going to involve a fair amount of editing. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 20:52, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
What will happen when we try to bring the article up to FA standards, where good writing and comprehensiveness are FA requirements, if we continue to let the idea of page length determine how we author the narrative? There will be no more room to add comprehensive content/context if we continue to subscribe to the page length guideline dogmatically here and now. The idea of page length has been the cause for too many needless debates here for the last several months. Much of this could have been averted if we didn't blindly fixate on this idea. As editors WP allows us to use common sense and discretion here. We need to do so or we will never be able to bring the article up to FA standards where we will be required to add context and comprehensiveness. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 19:23, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
The map that was depicted in the Indian removal section deals with the relocation of "Native Americans from the Southeastern United States between 1832 and 1835." as it says in the image description. The areas effected, in dark green, also depict the year dates involved, years after Jefferson had died, and long after his presidency, so this map has been removed. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 18:25, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
Copy edit of section proposed, ellipses show redaction. No change in wording or citations other than "campus" buildings, reduced image.
Jefferson envisioned a university free of church influences where students could specialize in many new areas not offered at other colleges. He believed education engendered a stable society, which should provide publicly funded schools accessible to students from all social strata, based solely on ability.[281] ...He was the principal designer of the campus buildings, planned the University's curriculum and served as the first rector upon its opening in 1825.[283]
Jefferson was a strong disciple of Greek and Roman architectural styles, which he believed to be most representative of American democracy. ...The layout of the university's grounds, which Jefferson called the 'Academical Village', reflected his educational ideas. ...The university had a library rather than a church at its center, emphasizing its secular nature—a controversial aspect at the time.[286]
When Jefferson died in 1826, James Madison replaced him as rector.[287] Jefferson bequeathed most of his library to the University.[288]
TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 14:52, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
I wonder if this is still more than is called for, but as I have more graduate hours from UVA than my alma mater W&M, sentiment leads me to be generous. In approving UVA, the General Assembly gutted common schooling statewide in the "Literacy Fund", but that is too much detail for this venue, its scholastic irony and nuance notwithstanding. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 14:52, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
This may be getting ahead of ourselves, but when the article reaches GA status it becomes eligible for a DYK presentation on the WP main page. Just wondering what we should say. Reminder, DYK's are supposed to be especially interesting and perhaps somewhat unusual. We don't say things like e.g.DYK, Jefferson authored the D.O.I.? We could say, perhaps, Jefferson was a slave owner but while a lawyer represented slaves seeking to establish their freedom. Of course this will no doubt pop a lot of modern day bubbles, esp in academia, but what the heck, one can never get enough education, even in modern times. :-) -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 19:02, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
@ Rjensen: - You removed a link claiming "link is not needed--it tells zero about TJ" -- What about all the other links, like Maryland and other places, for openers, that tell us "zero" about Jefferson? Seems that the link for List of amendments to the United States Constitution is well placed in the Louisiana purchase section, regarding Jefferson's concern for a Constitutional amendment. If there is a better place for the link I can understand that, but are you sure you want to apply the 'Tells us zero about Jefferson' yardstick to all the other links? -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 21:50, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Have just completed moving Cite book templates and web addresses from body of text to the bibliography. Have also converted the few SFN citations to Harvard style. For those unfamiliar with linking citations in the body of the text to the Cite Book template in the bibliography below is a simple example.
Cheers. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 20:37, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
I just corrected a couple of errors (date of ratification, etc) and added some important points of context, along with an important quote from Jefferson regarding his feelings towards France's acquisition of Louisiana from Spain, which he felt threatened the security of the continent and compromised U.S. relations with both Spain and France. I also removed the picture of Napoleon, as Jefferson never saw the man and was only involved with him remotely and briefly. For those still concerned about length, the section only increased in size by aprox 600 characters. (not including citations, links, etc) Other than wanting to add a point of context, a few words, to the slavery section, I am done adding content to this article and will concentrate my efforts on tweaks, citations, linking etc. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 19:54, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
The List of wars involving the United States mentions as the only war of his term: the First Barbary War (1801-1805). The previous major war against Native Americans was the Northwest Indian War (1785-1795) and the next was Tecumseh's War (1811). Jefferson was not really involved in either of them.
A significant event of his term in relation to Native Americans was the Treaty of Grouseland (1805) which peacefully purchased additional areas from the tribes of modern Indiana and Ohio. However, this treaty is credited to William Henry Harrison, the Governor of Indiana Territory. Harrison was originally appointed by previous president John Adams. According to Harrison's article, Jefferson simply "granted Harrison authority to negotiate and conclude treaties with the Indians."
A more controversial treaty under Jefferson was the Treaty of Fort Wayne (1809). At first seen as another peaceful purchase of land from several tribes, the treaty controversially excluded the Shawnee from negotiations while including areas they had recently claimed. It was one of the causes of Tecumseh's War, but Jefferson was out of office by the time the war started. Dimadick ( talk) 07:17, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
@ Cmguy777: The Louisiana Purchase did NOT “help the South more than the North”, when it broke the slave-based sectional balance in the Senate and contributing to free-soil majorities in the House 6-3 not counting Washington, Idaho, Nebraska or the Dakotas: MI, IA, WS,OR, MN, and KS -- as opposed to LA, MO and AR by the onset of the Civil War. More scholastic speculation asserted as “facts".
“Is WP denying that Jefferson was President?” — no, WP is not asserting an unsubstantiated speculation of scholastic whimsy that everything enacted by Congress was just as Jefferson intended. The factoid of Congressional back and forth on slave settlement does not meet WP:WEIGHT relating to Jefferson’s actions for Jefferson’s article. There is no evidence connecting the two, only a scholastic speculation which amounts to WP:POV.
Rehearsing the "diffusion theory" related to Virginia separated by decades from events decades later in Louisiana is too tenuous to be taken seriously. In the intervening years we have Jefferson’s support of free-soil counties in western Virginia and free-soil territories west of the Appalachians to the Mississippi, both of which failed in the respective legislatures — almost as though Jefferson did not effect every intention he had over legislatures, you see, --- this without denying Jefferson was President in some sort of rhetorical reductio ad absurdum on your part. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 11:29, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
We must remember that during Jefferson's terms as president the slavery issue was so heated and controversial it was causing a dangerous rift in the House. So much so that a group of Federalists led by Massachusetts Senator Timothy Pickering was entertaining the idea to plan a separate northern confederacy, and offered Vice President Burr the presidency of the proposed new country if he could persuade New York to join. Does Ferling even acknowledge this sort of thing? It sort of amazes me that various historians, who are supposed to have 'some' insights as to the causes of events in history, seem to be dumb founded over the idea of Jefferson's silence. In any event, let's come up with a compromise statement that acknowledges a greatly divided House, one that's factual and in context, that will not leave any editor dismayed or disappointed, too much. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 20:57, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
The new and existing account in the Indian removal section is at best sketchy. Removed from the narrative was the statement Jefferson believed assimilation was best for Native Americans; second best was removal to the west. He felt the worst outcome of the cultural and resources conflict between European Americans and Native Americans would be their attacking the whites. ... if we are constrained to lift the hatchet against any tribe, we will never lay it down until that tribe is exterminated ... IOW, Jefferson was partail to the fate of the Indians. The existing account also neglects to say that several India nations (i.e.Shawnee, Creek, etc) embraced Jefferson's "civilization program," and went along with Jefferson's proposals to adapt ranching and agriculture. Our account here is also not in accord with the account given at the Thomas Jefferson Foundation, where it states that "...most importantly to keep them allied with the United States and not with European powers..." and "...American Indian peoples were divided as to how to respond to Jefferson's policies. The TJF account also mentions how Jefferson was instrumental in forming the " Five Civilized Tribes" and that "Many in the Creek and Cherokee nations built towns and plantations, and some individuals held African American slaves just as their white neighbors." This did not begin to happen until Jefferson was president. This section needs to be rewritten and more context (re)introduced to the narrative. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 18:59, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
Here's some interesting reading from the Thomas Jefferson Foundation, which includes an abundance of sources:
After reading these articles it seems rather clear we should mention Jefferson's Enlightenment ideals regarding the American Indian, the Five Civilized Tribes, along with his general (and benevolent) feelings toward them. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 00:19, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
Below are some links to Jefferson's addresses to the various Indian tribes, taken from the Yale Law School Avalon Project. Hope they add to the insights Jefferson had in regards to these peoples.
-- Gwillhickers ( talk) 19:22, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
Does the entire topic of the American Indian in regards to Jefferson really belong under the 'Presidency' section? President Jefferson continued the efforts of Washington and supported treaties whose aim was to acquire land and promote trade, but most importantly he wanted to keep the Indian allied with the U.S. and not with European powers. He also used the treaties to further the program of gradual civilization which was completely in keeping with Jefferson's Enlightenment thinking. We should cover this particular effort under the Presidency section but the entire topic of the American Indian and Jefferson is best treated as a whole, not limited to his terms as president. i.e.Jefferson writes candidly about the Indians in his Notes on the State of Virginia, and speaks of their customs, having no actual laws. During his life he noted that there was little to no crime among the various Indian "confederacies". In his Notes' he equates the Indian to all men of Earth where he writes:
His Notes' also reveal where Jefferson rejects the (then) contemporary idea that "environmentalism" was what rendered the Indian inferior in body and mind to Europenans -- Jefferson refuted this notion and defended the American Indian culture. Also in his Notes' Jefferson appended a speech given by the Mingo chief Logan, who mourned the loss of his family in an attack by a white settler. Jefferson held up "Logan's Lament" as an example of a articulate and compelling oratory that was equal of any European orator.
Anyone who seriously wants to understand and write accurately about Jefferson's views of the American Indian should read Query (chapter) XI in his Notes on the State of Virginia and also his addresses to the various Indian nations, linked above. The Indian section still needs more context whose topic should really have a stand alone section as does Slavery. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 20:25, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
I would recommend we mention the most definitive items in terms of Jefferson's actual views, and once we compose a short list here we should then go through the biography and decide if it's best to include the proposed context in a separate section or if there are better places to mention these items in the narrative.
In “Jefferson’s Tardy Constitution”, Jack Lynch wrote in the Colonial Williamsburg Journal, Spring 2007, [8], the following: "Jefferson's [1783 proposed] constitution survives in a rough draft and a fair copy. A version was published in the Richmond Enquirer in 1806, but that was forgotten for decades.
"Some of the most intriguing passages appear in Article 4, "Rights, Private and Public." Jefferson spelled out property rights in detail, writing, for instance, "No lands shall be appropriated until purchased of the Indian native proprietors.” --- TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 20:29, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 35 | ← | Archive 37 | Archive 38 | Archive 39 | Archive 40 | Archive 41 | → | Archive 43 |
To ALL of you, I extend my best wishes for 2016! Here's to our average reader, and here's to a 2016 GA for TJ. How about we express this Happy New Year in each of TJ's languages? I have the English covered. Hoppyh ( talk) 21:29, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
Draft #4 proposal on West Point.
In 1802, the President and Congress established the United States Military Academy at West Point.[116] During the election campaign and at the beginning of his administration, Jefferson faced open contempt by many officers and appointed officials in the Army establishment. The constitutionally elected president undertook to “Republicanize” the Army to ensure its loyalty to future elected administrations. The military academy was central to his long term purpose consistent with his devotion to education. But Jefferson also immediately replaced Federalists in government, eliminated offices by legislation and insisted that new appointments went to the Republican faithful as a part of wide-ranging reform in other departments as well.<Crackel, Theodore J., in McDonald, Robert ed. 2004 p.100> This was consistent with Jefferson’s mature “contextualist” interpretation of the Constitution in which he allowed broad interpretation for the federal government in nationalistic spheres but still insisted on strictly enumerated powers when they were shared with the states.<Mayer, David N. in McDonald, ed. 2004 p.55> Subsequently from 1802-1833, West Point alumni both in uniform and as civilian leaders furnished nationalist administrative and executive leadership in the frontier territories.<Watson, Samuel J. in McDonald, Robert ed. 2004 p.155>
Jefferson’s answer was a carefully considered program of reformation that included the replacement of many Federalists, the accommodation of others, an insistence that new appointments go only to the Republican faithful, and, in some cases, the simple expedient of eliminating offices through legislative action. Jefferson reacted in much the same way to both the civil and military establishments that he interited — he employed a carefully modulated program of reform that would ultimately bring them into line with the broad aspirations and goals of the new Republican regime. —Crackel in McDonald 2007. p.100
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Pushing to include the Military Peace Establishment Act, Part 2
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Please stop!
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Pushing to include the Military Peace Establishment Act, Part 3
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Vote to voteHere is the paragraph that was deleted from the article. Please vote on whether to put the paragraph up for a vote. Not trying to "wack a mole" But Gwillhickers requested a paragraph be put in on West Point. This is a good faith edit. Not trying to rock the West Point vote. This is not a vote to put in the article but a vote to see if the paragraph is worth voting on. Cmguy777 ( talk) 05:32, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
References
Oppose FOR THE THIRD TIME Hoppyh ( talk) 16:40, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
Consensus is not gained by voting. Voting clarifies the minority position which is to be accommodated by the majority in consensus building. It is not clear that the majority on excluding West Point as an academy in the introduction to Jefferson's presidency is a majority to exclude a broader discussion of Jefferson’s administrative reforms during his presidency. YoPienso, Alanscottwalker, Coemgenus, Hoppyh all see West Point as an academy of lesser import than UVA in Jefferson’s correspondence and in the literature, and so wish to dismiss it from the introduction part of the Presidency section. Gwillhickers, Cmguy777, TVH, are interested in West Point as an educational institution, they are joined by RJensen and TFD who are interested in West Point only in a larger context of political reform, which is given weight in the literature. So abandoning West Point as an academy does not mean no mention of it at all anywhere. Jefferson’s political reforms make the partisan Federalist administration holdovers conform to the goals of the Constitutionally elected Republican party, which includes a larger discussion of orderly replacement at vacancy, abolition of offices, and firings. In this larger context the USMA is a part of republicanizing the Army officer corps by linking its cadets to Congressional appointment, addressing Jefferson’s prolific concern in his correspondence over a standing army. West Point need not be wedged into the introductory section of the Presidency, it can be mentioned in a section on Jefferson’s political reforms. Meacham quotes the French envoy’s report to Paris, “Mr. Jefferson doesn’t at all hesitate to say that the previous administration conducted itself under anti-republican maxims” and the new president was determined to correct such “inequalities and errors”. As Meacham observes, “Jefferson had the strength to do largely as he wished.” Regardless of Federalist protests which are amply represented in the historical literature, Jefferson had the votes in both houses of Congress to do as he wished. We should report it in his biography. (Meacham p. 373-374) TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 11:19, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
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Pushing to include the Military Peace Establishment Act, Part 4
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VoteI will put the paragraph up for vote then. Please let me clarify that West Point does not have to be included or excluded in the article. Cmguy777 ( talk) 01:17, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
JUST A MINUTE HERE!! I just realized you put the paragraph up for a vote with no consensus from your previous "vote to vote." This demonstrates serious WP:IDHT, so I'm hatting the whole thing. YoPienso ( talk) 02:24, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
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The following is from WP:AS on Article Size: A page of about 30 kB to 50 kB of readable prose, which roughly corresponds to 4,000 to 10,000 words, takes between 30 and 40 minutes to read at average speed, which is right on the limit of the average concentration span of 40 to 50 minutes. At 50 kB and above it may be beneficial to move some sections to other articles and replace them with summaries per Wikipedia:Summary style... With Jefferson clearly above that level, I believe my assertion is reasonable that the article is already beyond the length and breadth for the average reader. Nevertheless, I do understand there is no agreement on this. Hoppyh ( talk) 22:15, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
I agree - the number ten is arbitrary - it is an expression of the hope we could get more editors' input. It would be great if we could somehow agree that the article is already an exception on length, and readers who want more detail can use the links to other articles. We will not get anywhere without an agreement on this. And I don't think the numbers I quoted from WP above about attention span are comparable to books. Hoppyh ( talk) 22:33, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
In the Slavery section it says that Jefferson is considered to be a "benevolent slave owner". This is a sketchy claim that could mean any number of things. Jefferson and slavery is a controversial issue and should get a clarifying phrase in the biography that doesn't require the reader to search through other articles for simple clarification. Not long ago I tried adding ...who didn't over work his slaves and provided well for them, but this was deleted, so I have added the clarify tag. If we can clarify things in this article with a short phrase we should do so. Imo, there is no pressing reason why we should not. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 21:06, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
When reliable sources disagree, the typical solution is to summarize their arguments for a position. The Smithsonian article contains a section criticizing previous views on the content slaves of Jefferson as examples of "misconceptions and sappy prose". Then discusses at length Jefferson's views of his slaves as investments and his development on an influential theory on their financial value. Jefferson is quoted as estimating "I allow nothing for losses by death, but, on the contrary, shall presently take credit four per cent. per annum, for their increase over and above keeping up their own numbers."
Jefferson began trying to increase the birth rate of the slaves and abandoned any plans for their potential emancipation. As the article points out: "The date of Jefferson’s calculation aligns with the waning of his emancipationist fervor. Jefferson began to back away from antislavery just around the time he computed the silent profit of the “peculiar institution.” "
The article then addresses the fact of how Jefferson treated slaves aged 10 to 12: "A letter has recently come to light describing how Monticello’s young black boys, “the small ones,” age 10, 11 or 12, were whipped to get them to work in Jefferson’s nail factory, whose profits paid the mansion’s grocery bills. This passage about children being lashed had been suppressed—deliberately deleted from the published record in the 1953 edition of Jefferson’s Farm Book, containing 500 pages of plantation papers. That edition of the Farm Book still serves as a standard reference for research into the way Monticello worked."
Then the article addresses the hierarchy of slaves in Monticello and how slaves of different rank were given very different treatments: "The higher you stood in the hierarchy, the better clothes and food you got; you also lived literally on a higher plane, closer to the mountaintop. A small minority of slaves received pay, profit sharing or what Jefferson called “gratuities,” while the lowest workers received only the barest rations and clothing. Differences bred resentment, especially toward the elite household staff."
The article covers how the boys aged 10 to 16 worked at Jefferson's nail factory, and how their output affected their future work careers. Those deemed successful could receive further training as artisans and house slaves, the failures were demoted to field slaves. The article points out: "The work was tedious in the extreme. Confined for long hours in the hot, smoky workshop, the boys hammered out 5,000 to 10,000 nails a day, producing a gross income of $2,000 in 1796."
Then the article covers an incident in 1798, when one of Jefferson's foremen was reluctant to whip the slaves under his care and this caused a delay in the work schedule. They apparently had to call on another overseer to whip the slaves more and make them work on time.
Then the article discusses a matter of historical censorship and forgery. A historian by the name of Edwin Betts came across a section of Jefferson’s Farm Book covering the whipping of child slaves for truancy. "Betts decided that the image of children being beaten at Monticello had to be suppressed, omitting this document from his edition. He had an entirely different image in his head; the introduction to the book declared, “Jefferson came close to creating on his own plantations the ideal rural community.” Betts couldn’t do anything about the original letter, but no one would see it, tucked away in the archives of the Massachusetts Historical Society. The full text did not emerge in print until 2005."
Then the article reports on how Betts' censorship influenced the inaccurate work of other historians. The article names (with text samples) as examples Jack McLaughlin, Merrill Peterson, Joseph Ellis, and Dumas Malone. All inaccurate on the level of whipping involved in the daily operations of Monticello and all presenting a far too benevolent image of Jefferson himself. Some of these quotes seem laughably bad: "on rare occasions, and as a last resort, he [Jefferson] ordered overseers to use the lash."
I don't think I have to continue with the summary. Frankly, I find that the article sheds some light on the business practices of Jefferson and avoids demonizing or romanticising the slave-owner. Dimadick ( talk) 21:27, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
It would seem we could avoid a lot of drawn out debate if we just regarded page length for what it is -- a guideline, and if we allowed various additions of context so long as it is well sourced, keeping in mind of course that there are limits to everything. Most importantly, some editors need to be more willing to compromise. Overall, we are only debating page length and the amount of details. Time and again I have seen details removed from sections in cases where there were only a few to begin with. The idea of "too many details" should only be an issue here if there are many dozens of them of them and when they are clearly tangential to the topic/section. Again, to sum up a topic adequately we need to include all the important details. The daughter articles are for in depth coverage where we can add more of the lesser details. Above all, context is important and needs to be embraced here regardless of daughter articles. As it is, to get a clear picture of Jefferson the person (ala his biography) a reader is presently required to break away to numerous other articles. Presently this biography begs the clarification needed and why? tags. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 20:52, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
Holiday is over -- back to the grind. I remain amazed that there is only one sentence covering West Point in what is supposed to become a Good Article, while simple points of context (i.e.British subject) are argued at length as if someone was trying to introduce some radical proposal. Editors here need to lighten up. TVH has done a wonderful job with his proposals, cross referencing Jefferson's military Academy with his political philosophy and such. We should cover West Point with just a bit more context, tying it in with Jefferson's thinking regarding Republicanism, any partisanship, along with his founding of the University of Virginia, where many of his ideas for West Point were incorporated -- including military exercises throughout the entire course for all grades of students. This can easily be accomplished with a few added sentences -- yet there is this monumental disagreement. No one is proposing a half page of coverage -- however, one sentence for West Point is clearly ignoring the scholarship out there (BTW, the scholarship includes more than just biographies.) In any case, this article will never reach GA if various editors continue to behave in such a unyielding and arrogant manner. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 22:34, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
You think that is more important than say writing the Declaration of Independence or becoming president? TFD ( talk) 21:04, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
Ellis (2008) discusses Indian removal in terms of Jeffersons Louisiana Purchase, but this has been edited out or censured by Dcpoliticaljunkie. Slavery did remain intact...Jefferson only gave a one year moretorium on allowing slaves to be brought into the territory. Cmguy777 ( talk) 00:10, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
"Slavery did remain intact" in the Louisiana Purchase and in Illinois and in what would later be Missouri for the previous French settlers with slaves --- whom Jefferson would not arbitrarily strip of their property before the law. He was anxious to a) make loyal US citizens of the French, b) incorporate their settlement as our own, c) not give grounds for French government protest. This is not the same thing as promoting slavery as an institution in the republic on principle or as secretive deviousness, which is the out-of-context implication.
Jefferson sought Native American farming and integration, peace along frontiers, purchase of lands for settlement, and removal of military of allies of the British who abrogated their treaties with the US during the Revolution and War of 1812. Those treaties cannot anachronistically said to be in force after tribes make war in violation of them in some sort of race-based double standard for modern analysis. "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me." may be an operating international principle in the law of nations or it may only be a dictum of practical politicians. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 10:24, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
There was slavery in the Louisiana Territory previous to Jefferson’s administration among French settlers there in New Orleans, St. Louis and surrounding areas; he did not provide for their removal. Jefferson did not have the votes to restrict additional domestic slave importation in the Louisiana Purchase beyond one year. Does Ellis dispute that; where were the votes to come from? Slaves were held as property in United States law, whereas there is evidence that Jefferson saw those held as slaves to be people with fundamental rights to self government, hence the popularity of American Colonization Society among Jefferson’s contemporaries in Virginia leadership. While I am for trimming several article sections, I am for expansion of the coverage devoted to Jefferson’s presidential reform of the executive branch to conform with election results from the people in a republic, and I am for expanding coverage of Indian removal especially British military allies in context.
I view Ellis (2008) is a reliable source for modern perspective. Does Ellis omit that the majority of Native Americans east of the Mississippi were British military allies in the Revolution? Does he fail to distinguish among US allies and its enemies in war without distinction on this point? Does he omit continuing British armament of its military allies after the Revolution and continuing occupation of British forts on US soil supplying them? Does he omit US opposition to that policy?
As late as negotiations for the Treaty of Ghent in 1814, British diplomacy had held out the promise of an independent Native American nation from the Great Lakes south to the Ohio River as a buffer state between the US and Canada. Does Ellis not take US opposition to that policy into account? The Treaty of Paris had nominally ceded British claims to the Northwest Territory west to the Mississippi River based on the military defeats of British and Native-American allies in the West by Virginian and French settler allies. Where does Ellis dispute this? TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk)
Noting removal of tribes that violated peace treaties with the US by making war as allies of Great Britain subsequent to the US winning the war, is an important circumstance of Jefferson’s administration; another source besides Ellis should be found if he is silent on the context of the removal.
Here’s what Jefferson’s party said by treaty in the administration following, --- it is the first instance of a UK-US military alliance I can find: “Whereas the traffic in slaves is irreconcilable with the principles of humanity and justice, and whereas both his Majesty and the United States are desirous of continuing their efforts to promote its entire abolition, it is hereby agreed that both the contracting parties shall use their best endeavors to accomplish so desirable an object." — Article the Tenth, Treaty of Ghent, 1814. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 08:16, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
In the lede it says that Jefferson was an "American lawyer", which seems a bit misleading because during this time (1767+) there was no 'America' in terms of the country that exists today. Wouldn't it be more adequate to simply say that he practiced law, or that he was a Colonial lawyer? Today the term America is generally understood to mean the United States which didn't officially exist until after independence. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 19:53, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
It would be pretty boring if people only told you things you already knew. But rather than descend into a morass of irrelevant argumentation, let's get back to the issue. People living in the American colonies were called Americans, both by people in the UK and in the colonies. Contemporary writers still refer to them as Americans. The fact that the American states only united in the late 18th century to form a nation called the "United States of America" is irrelevant. Now if they had called the new nation "Columbia" or something new, it might be different. TFD ( talk) 22:55, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
None of which means he was not an American before 1776. Incidentally, is there any reason why you use extremely wide
If Jefferson did not practice law after July 4, 1776, then putting in "colonial American lawyer" is appropriate. Is there anyway to substantiate he did not practice law after July 4, 1776? Cmguy777 ( talk) 21:30, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
What do you guys think of omitting lawyer from the first line of the lede? [6] It's mentioned at the end of the paragraph so it's redundant and, frankly, I don't think lawyer is the most important thing Jefferson is known for so it shouldn't be the first line anyway...
Rjensen mentions Jefferson abandoned the practice. But he never tried a case after 1774...That makes him a practing colonial British subject lawyer. Dc's edit does not emphasis being a lawyer, although he did try about 7 freedom cases while he practiced, his other cases were apparently for wealthy clients. If the article does not state so now I suggest putting in the article that Jefferson abandoned his law practice in 1774 seeking the public arena or office. Cmguy777 ( talk) 01:30, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
I just discovered this guideline, Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia, which I didn't know existed. It's pertinent when daughter ("child") articles are created or enlarged from this one. YoPienso ( talk) 19:14, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
This is yet another misrepresentation, as several editors, very knowledgeable of Jefferson, and major contributors btw, feel we should have the discretion, per guidelines, to write a comprehensive article and include various hitherto missing and general facts. Since there is a marginal consensus, what would your suggestions for a fair compromise be? Remember, there was a standing consensus to include many of the things that were removed, often without discussion, so perhaps we should summon all involved editors and get a more accurate account on the matter, that is, if you can't present us with any pressing reasons not to. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 21:05, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
I am leaving this article again. I am convinced that this article will never improve in the forseeable future and rather, it will be both over-long and at the same time it will not actually offer the nuanced complexity required - eg., it will not show the contradictions of the man, that scholarship shows. (The pre-good-article-drive article was criticized as by the reviewer for such things and it appears it will be so again). -- Alanscottwalker ( talk) 20:32, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
Negative POV can be subjective. Slaves did increase to over a million by natural reproduction and were moved to the Louisiana Territory. Jefferson signifigantly decreased the slave importation by banning the international slave trade although there was some smuggling in Louisiana. Noting Jefferson did this without a Civil War. Stating facts is not POV and as far as I know there are no negative judgemental comments concerning Jefferson in the article. That would be POV. But I do not believe the discussion of slavery and/or Indian removal and the Louisiana Territory should be censured from the article. Cmguy777 ( talk) 21:38, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
While there was a marginal consensus not to mention West Point in the lede I don't recall any consensus to cover this topic with only one sentence. We should really say something more here, esp since the topic ties in with Jefferson's political philosophy, his ideas for national defense and the Univ of Virginia, which was largely modeled after West Point. These general and definitive ideas could be covered inside one or two more sentences. Yes? No? -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 20:38, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
Yes -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 20:38, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
No -- unless it is a part of a paragraph on executive branch reform. see comments. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 15:54, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
More should be said as the existing coverage is not par with the scholarship, which includes more than biographies. It would seem that the existing coverage is hardly a compromise. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 20:41, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
So be it.
As a good number of editors expressed reasons to cover West Point with a fair measure of historical context, two sentences seems to be more than a fair compromise. We should wait another couple days or so to see if there are any remaining and pressing reasons not to include the draft. If we can clear this hurdle it would seem we can go ahead, iron out any remaining tweaks and points of context and continue our efforts to provide a well written and truly good article for the readers. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 19:32, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
In spite of difference among some editors it would seem that a 'GA' is still within sight. Are there any major issues that need to be addressed before we consider renominating the article? -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 19:32, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
The section suffers from elements of an historiographic essay for scholars which takes away from describing the events in an encyclopedic style for the general reader. Add link to Embargo Act of 1807. Reduce length about 15%-20%.
The British conducted raids on American shipping and kidnapped seamen in 1806–07; thousands of Americans were thus impressed into their military service. In response, Jefferson issued a call for a boycott of British goods; Congress passed the Non-importation Act but it was never enforced. While Jefferson sought a treaty to ease relations through negotiations by James Monroe and William Pinkney, the result lacked any provisions to end impressment.[169]
The British ship HMS Leopard fired upon the USS Chesapeake off the Virginia coast in June 1807, kidnapping American citizens, and Jefferson prepared for war.[170] He issued a proclamation banning armed British ships from U.S. waters. He presumed unilateral authority to call on the states to prepare 100,000 militia and ordered the purchase of arms, ammunition, and supplies, writing, "The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation [than strict observance of written laws]". The USS Revenge, dispatched to demand an explanation from the British government, was also fired upon. Jefferson called for a special session of Congress in October to enact an embargo or in the alternative consider war.[171]
Despite Napoleon’s extending the Berlin Decree and Britain’s redoubling efforts at impressment, the war fever of the summer faded. Jefferson asked for and received the Embargo Act of 1807, an alternative that allowed the U.S. more time to build up defensive works, militias and naval forces. Later historians have seen irony in Jefferson's assertion of such federal power in a national sphere of affairs.[172]
Secretary of State James Madison supported the embargo with equal vigor to Jefferson,[173] while Treasury Secretary Gallatin opposed it, due to its indefinite time frame and the risk it posed to the policy of American neutrality.[174] The U.S. economy suffered, criticism grew, and opponents began evading the embargo. Instead of retreating, Jefferson sent federal agents to secretly track down smugglers and violators.[175] Three acts were passed in Congress during 1807 and 1808, called the Supplementary, the Additional, and the Enforcement acts.[170] Though the government could not prevent American vessels from trading with the European belligerents once they had left American ports, the embargo triggered a devastating decline in exports.[170]
Most historians consider Jefferson's embargo to have been ineffective and harmful to American interests.[176] Others, however, portray it as an innovative, nonviolent measure which aided France in its war with Britain while preserving American neutrality.[178] Jefferson believed that the failure of the embargo was due to selfish traders and merchants showing a lack of "republican virtue", and maintained that had the embargo been widely observed, it would have avoided war in 1812.[179]
In December 1807 Jefferson announced his intention to not to seek a third term, leaving Madison and Gallatin in almost total control of affairs.[180] Shortly before leaving office in March 1809, Jefferson signed the repeal of the Embargo. In its place the Non-Intercourse Act was passed, but it proved no more effective.[170]
TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 15:02, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
Again addressing the length consideration voiced by multiple editors, a section reduced by approximately 15-20%, --- primarily by removing historiographic essay material of interest to scholars which militates against an encyclopedic style for the general reader. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 15:02, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
I noticed that Tucker's work, 1837, is used as a source in the biography, which is one of the oldest accounts to speak of on Jefferson. Tucker was the Dumas Malone of his day. In any case, I have no objections but thought maybe some discussion might be needed, as we're supposed to use modern sources (only?), unless there is a consensus for its use. I support the use. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 20:03, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
Proposed rewrite, cutting approximately 15-20%. Portions copy edited, ellipses note sentences deleted. smaller image.
Soon after returning from France, Jefferson accepted Washington's invitation to serve as Secretary of State.[78] ...The first major issues before the Cabinet were the national debt and the permanent location of the capital. Jefferson opposed a national debt preferring each state to retire its own, while Hamilton, desired consolidation of various states' debts by the federal government.[81] The second major issue was the capital's permanent location. Hamilton favored a capital close to the major commercial centers of the Northeast, while Washington, Jefferson, and other agrarians, wanted it located to the south.
After lengthy deadlock, the Compromise of 1790 was struck locating the capital on the Potomac River, while the federal government assumed the war debts of all 13 states.[82] In May 1792 Jefferson, alarmed at the political rivalries taking shape, wrote to Washington, urging him to run for re-election that year as a unifying influence.[83] He entreated the president to rally the citizenry to a party that would defend democracy against the corrupting influence of banks and monied interests, as espoused by the Federalists. Historians recognize this letter as the earliest delineation of Democratic-Republican Party principles.[84] ...
Jefferson supported France against Britain when the two nations fought in 1793, though his arguments in the Cabinet were undercut by French Revolutionary envoy Edmond-Charles Genêt's open scorn for President Washington….[86] In his discussions with British Minister George Hammond, Jefferson tried unsuccessfully to persuade the British to acknowledge their violation of the Treaty of Paris, to vacate their posts in the Northwest, and to compensate the U.S. for slaves whom the British had freed at the end of the war. Seeking a return to private life, Jefferson resigned the cabinet position in December 1793, perhaps seeking to bolster his political influence from outside the administration.[87]
After the Washington administration negotiated the unpopular Jay Treaty with Great Britain (1794), Jefferson saw a cause around which to rally his party and organized opposition from Monticello.[88] The treaty, designed by Hamilton, aimed to reduce tensions and increase trade. Jefferson warned that it would increase British influence and subvert republicanism, calling it "the boldest act [Hamilton and Jay] ever ventured on to undermine the government".[89] The Treaty passed, but when it expired in 1805 during Jefferson’s administration, it was not renewed. Jefferson continued his pro-French stance; during the violence of the Reign of Terror, he declined to disavow the revolution because "To back away from France would be to undermine the cause of republicanism in America."[90]
TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 13:59, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
The proposal uses existing sources, eliminates some duplication, ce greater focus on Jefferson's activity as Secretary of State, reducing its length approximately 15-20%. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 13:59, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
Done following the week's review. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 06:11, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
As @ Cmguy777: mentions above, we need to adopt a single citation convention. Currently there are two conventions used extensively in this article. (Harvard and the SFN) I am not sure if this is a GA requirement -- have to check -- but it most certainly is a FA requirement. IMO we should go with the SFN convention. Either way, this is going to involve a fair amount of editing. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 20:52, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
What will happen when we try to bring the article up to FA standards, where good writing and comprehensiveness are FA requirements, if we continue to let the idea of page length determine how we author the narrative? There will be no more room to add comprehensive content/context if we continue to subscribe to the page length guideline dogmatically here and now. The idea of page length has been the cause for too many needless debates here for the last several months. Much of this could have been averted if we didn't blindly fixate on this idea. As editors WP allows us to use common sense and discretion here. We need to do so or we will never be able to bring the article up to FA standards where we will be required to add context and comprehensiveness. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 19:23, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
The map that was depicted in the Indian removal section deals with the relocation of "Native Americans from the Southeastern United States between 1832 and 1835." as it says in the image description. The areas effected, in dark green, also depict the year dates involved, years after Jefferson had died, and long after his presidency, so this map has been removed. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 18:25, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
Copy edit of section proposed, ellipses show redaction. No change in wording or citations other than "campus" buildings, reduced image.
Jefferson envisioned a university free of church influences where students could specialize in many new areas not offered at other colleges. He believed education engendered a stable society, which should provide publicly funded schools accessible to students from all social strata, based solely on ability.[281] ...He was the principal designer of the campus buildings, planned the University's curriculum and served as the first rector upon its opening in 1825.[283]
Jefferson was a strong disciple of Greek and Roman architectural styles, which he believed to be most representative of American democracy. ...The layout of the university's grounds, which Jefferson called the 'Academical Village', reflected his educational ideas. ...The university had a library rather than a church at its center, emphasizing its secular nature—a controversial aspect at the time.[286]
When Jefferson died in 1826, James Madison replaced him as rector.[287] Jefferson bequeathed most of his library to the University.[288]
TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 14:52, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
I wonder if this is still more than is called for, but as I have more graduate hours from UVA than my alma mater W&M, sentiment leads me to be generous. In approving UVA, the General Assembly gutted common schooling statewide in the "Literacy Fund", but that is too much detail for this venue, its scholastic irony and nuance notwithstanding. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 14:52, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
This may be getting ahead of ourselves, but when the article reaches GA status it becomes eligible for a DYK presentation on the WP main page. Just wondering what we should say. Reminder, DYK's are supposed to be especially interesting and perhaps somewhat unusual. We don't say things like e.g.DYK, Jefferson authored the D.O.I.? We could say, perhaps, Jefferson was a slave owner but while a lawyer represented slaves seeking to establish their freedom. Of course this will no doubt pop a lot of modern day bubbles, esp in academia, but what the heck, one can never get enough education, even in modern times. :-) -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 19:02, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
@ Rjensen: - You removed a link claiming "link is not needed--it tells zero about TJ" -- What about all the other links, like Maryland and other places, for openers, that tell us "zero" about Jefferson? Seems that the link for List of amendments to the United States Constitution is well placed in the Louisiana purchase section, regarding Jefferson's concern for a Constitutional amendment. If there is a better place for the link I can understand that, but are you sure you want to apply the 'Tells us zero about Jefferson' yardstick to all the other links? -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 21:50, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Have just completed moving Cite book templates and web addresses from body of text to the bibliography. Have also converted the few SFN citations to Harvard style. For those unfamiliar with linking citations in the body of the text to the Cite Book template in the bibliography below is a simple example.
Cheers. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 20:37, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
I just corrected a couple of errors (date of ratification, etc) and added some important points of context, along with an important quote from Jefferson regarding his feelings towards France's acquisition of Louisiana from Spain, which he felt threatened the security of the continent and compromised U.S. relations with both Spain and France. I also removed the picture of Napoleon, as Jefferson never saw the man and was only involved with him remotely and briefly. For those still concerned about length, the section only increased in size by aprox 600 characters. (not including citations, links, etc) Other than wanting to add a point of context, a few words, to the slavery section, I am done adding content to this article and will concentrate my efforts on tweaks, citations, linking etc. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 19:54, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
The List of wars involving the United States mentions as the only war of his term: the First Barbary War (1801-1805). The previous major war against Native Americans was the Northwest Indian War (1785-1795) and the next was Tecumseh's War (1811). Jefferson was not really involved in either of them.
A significant event of his term in relation to Native Americans was the Treaty of Grouseland (1805) which peacefully purchased additional areas from the tribes of modern Indiana and Ohio. However, this treaty is credited to William Henry Harrison, the Governor of Indiana Territory. Harrison was originally appointed by previous president John Adams. According to Harrison's article, Jefferson simply "granted Harrison authority to negotiate and conclude treaties with the Indians."
A more controversial treaty under Jefferson was the Treaty of Fort Wayne (1809). At first seen as another peaceful purchase of land from several tribes, the treaty controversially excluded the Shawnee from negotiations while including areas they had recently claimed. It was one of the causes of Tecumseh's War, but Jefferson was out of office by the time the war started. Dimadick ( talk) 07:17, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
@ Cmguy777: The Louisiana Purchase did NOT “help the South more than the North”, when it broke the slave-based sectional balance in the Senate and contributing to free-soil majorities in the House 6-3 not counting Washington, Idaho, Nebraska or the Dakotas: MI, IA, WS,OR, MN, and KS -- as opposed to LA, MO and AR by the onset of the Civil War. More scholastic speculation asserted as “facts".
“Is WP denying that Jefferson was President?” — no, WP is not asserting an unsubstantiated speculation of scholastic whimsy that everything enacted by Congress was just as Jefferson intended. The factoid of Congressional back and forth on slave settlement does not meet WP:WEIGHT relating to Jefferson’s actions for Jefferson’s article. There is no evidence connecting the two, only a scholastic speculation which amounts to WP:POV.
Rehearsing the "diffusion theory" related to Virginia separated by decades from events decades later in Louisiana is too tenuous to be taken seriously. In the intervening years we have Jefferson’s support of free-soil counties in western Virginia and free-soil territories west of the Appalachians to the Mississippi, both of which failed in the respective legislatures — almost as though Jefferson did not effect every intention he had over legislatures, you see, --- this without denying Jefferson was President in some sort of rhetorical reductio ad absurdum on your part. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 11:29, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
We must remember that during Jefferson's terms as president the slavery issue was so heated and controversial it was causing a dangerous rift in the House. So much so that a group of Federalists led by Massachusetts Senator Timothy Pickering was entertaining the idea to plan a separate northern confederacy, and offered Vice President Burr the presidency of the proposed new country if he could persuade New York to join. Does Ferling even acknowledge this sort of thing? It sort of amazes me that various historians, who are supposed to have 'some' insights as to the causes of events in history, seem to be dumb founded over the idea of Jefferson's silence. In any event, let's come up with a compromise statement that acknowledges a greatly divided House, one that's factual and in context, that will not leave any editor dismayed or disappointed, too much. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 20:57, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
The new and existing account in the Indian removal section is at best sketchy. Removed from the narrative was the statement Jefferson believed assimilation was best for Native Americans; second best was removal to the west. He felt the worst outcome of the cultural and resources conflict between European Americans and Native Americans would be their attacking the whites. ... if we are constrained to lift the hatchet against any tribe, we will never lay it down until that tribe is exterminated ... IOW, Jefferson was partail to the fate of the Indians. The existing account also neglects to say that several India nations (i.e.Shawnee, Creek, etc) embraced Jefferson's "civilization program," and went along with Jefferson's proposals to adapt ranching and agriculture. Our account here is also not in accord with the account given at the Thomas Jefferson Foundation, where it states that "...most importantly to keep them allied with the United States and not with European powers..." and "...American Indian peoples were divided as to how to respond to Jefferson's policies. The TJF account also mentions how Jefferson was instrumental in forming the " Five Civilized Tribes" and that "Many in the Creek and Cherokee nations built towns and plantations, and some individuals held African American slaves just as their white neighbors." This did not begin to happen until Jefferson was president. This section needs to be rewritten and more context (re)introduced to the narrative. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 18:59, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
Here's some interesting reading from the Thomas Jefferson Foundation, which includes an abundance of sources:
After reading these articles it seems rather clear we should mention Jefferson's Enlightenment ideals regarding the American Indian, the Five Civilized Tribes, along with his general (and benevolent) feelings toward them. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 00:19, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
Below are some links to Jefferson's addresses to the various Indian tribes, taken from the Yale Law School Avalon Project. Hope they add to the insights Jefferson had in regards to these peoples.
-- Gwillhickers ( talk) 19:22, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
Does the entire topic of the American Indian in regards to Jefferson really belong under the 'Presidency' section? President Jefferson continued the efforts of Washington and supported treaties whose aim was to acquire land and promote trade, but most importantly he wanted to keep the Indian allied with the U.S. and not with European powers. He also used the treaties to further the program of gradual civilization which was completely in keeping with Jefferson's Enlightenment thinking. We should cover this particular effort under the Presidency section but the entire topic of the American Indian and Jefferson is best treated as a whole, not limited to his terms as president. i.e.Jefferson writes candidly about the Indians in his Notes on the State of Virginia, and speaks of their customs, having no actual laws. During his life he noted that there was little to no crime among the various Indian "confederacies". In his Notes' he equates the Indian to all men of Earth where he writes:
His Notes' also reveal where Jefferson rejects the (then) contemporary idea that "environmentalism" was what rendered the Indian inferior in body and mind to Europenans -- Jefferson refuted this notion and defended the American Indian culture. Also in his Notes' Jefferson appended a speech given by the Mingo chief Logan, who mourned the loss of his family in an attack by a white settler. Jefferson held up "Logan's Lament" as an example of a articulate and compelling oratory that was equal of any European orator.
Anyone who seriously wants to understand and write accurately about Jefferson's views of the American Indian should read Query (chapter) XI in his Notes on the State of Virginia and also his addresses to the various Indian nations, linked above. The Indian section still needs more context whose topic should really have a stand alone section as does Slavery. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 20:25, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
I would recommend we mention the most definitive items in terms of Jefferson's actual views, and once we compose a short list here we should then go through the biography and decide if it's best to include the proposed context in a separate section or if there are better places to mention these items in the narrative.
In “Jefferson’s Tardy Constitution”, Jack Lynch wrote in the Colonial Williamsburg Journal, Spring 2007, [8], the following: "Jefferson's [1783 proposed] constitution survives in a rough draft and a fair copy. A version was published in the Richmond Enquirer in 1806, but that was forgotten for decades.
"Some of the most intriguing passages appear in Article 4, "Rights, Private and Public." Jefferson spelled out property rights in detail, writing, for instance, "No lands shall be appropriated until purchased of the Indian native proprietors.” --- TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 20:29, 9 February 2016 (UTC)