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User:Dcpoliticaljunkie and I seem to disagree about the amount of detail about Jefferson's marriage that should go into the lede. Jefferson is a topic with an enormous amount of material. The lede can only give a very rough summary of the most important aspects of his life. I don't think the cause of Martha's death is important enough to make the cut (it's his biography, not hers), and her request that he should not remarry is widely reported, but considered apocryphal by some experts. So I would prefer to exclude these from the lede. But I'm happy to hear other opinions. -- Stephan Schulz ( talk) 14:14, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
The @ TheVirginiaHistorian: seems to be incorporating the items in the original proposal above into the text nicely. Bear in mind @ Cmguy777: that the place for Jefferson's personal religious views would be under Religion. Coverage of Church and State, which albeit relates to religion in terms of how it effected government and ultimately, the people, belongs under Political and religious views. Both TVH and Coemgenus mention an important issue. i.e.Jefferson's non belief in a Holy Trinity. We might want to mention this specifically under the Religion section, which, all by itself, would put Jefferson's beliefs in perspective with conventional Christian thought.
If there is any concern or doubt as to the importance Jefferson placed on separating the church from the government (State), I would recommend reading the first couple of paragraphs in Chapter XVII in Jefferson's Notes on the State of Virginia. (The 2nd paragraph really nails the idea of Jefferson's disdain for religious involvement in government.) Again, the idea of separating the church from governmental affairs was the crux of Jefferson's thinking regarding Governmental reform for the simple reason that the Church too often was at the center of corruption during Jefferson's time and before. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 19:32, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
@ TheVirginiaHistorian: Are you going to include Jefferson's Virginia Statute for Religious in your above draft? Also, it seems we need a good intro statement for Jefferson and Church and State. Could you incorportate the following sentence into your draft? "Jefferson was a prominent proponent of Separation of Church and State throughout his political career". Thnx -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 23:56, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
We should get this settled once and for all.
Some editors feel West Point should be mentioned in the lede some do not. The item has been included and deleted several times now so we should try to resolve this.
Here is the statement in question. Please signify for or against for its inclusion in the lede. Please leave any comments under comments.
Jefferson founded the United States Military Academy at West Point.
West Point is one of Jefferson's major and unprecedented accomplishments, covered by more than enough RS's to be mentioned in lede. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 19:59, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
It seems some editors don't understand WP:WEIGHT and WP:SUMMARY, so here's a brief explanation. First, WP:WEIGHT is found in Neutral Point of View ( WP:NPOV), second of the five basic "pillars" of Wikipedia ( WP:5P). Copy and paste:
Note in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources and how undue weight can be given . . .. This principle is pertinent to questions about Sally Hemings. We are supposed to emphasize what the majority of mainstream historians agree on. We stick with the academic consensus. Yes, we include contrarians' views, but we do not give their opinions the same prominence, or weight, if you will, that we do to the consensus of mainstream academicians. This doesn't imply that the contrarians aren't educated or part of academia, but shows their views are not accepted by the majority of their peers. Now, summary style ( WP:SUMMARY), an editing guideline, is essential when writing an encyclopedia article for Wikipedia. An article here is NOT an exhaustive study of the subject, but a summary. Copy and paste from the "Rationale" section of that page:
This is pertinent to the inclusion of West Point in the lead. When I call that "trivia," I'm not trivializing the importance of the U.S. Military Academy! I'm saying that signing the bill that established it wasn't greatly important in TJ's life. No major general biographer gives much space to that detail. Of course books or articles written specifically on TJ and West Point do! But this article we're writing is supposed to be a general biography. Therefore, we do NOT emphasize details that were of relatively little importance in his long and productive life. Some editors seem to think that if a fact is verifiable and well-sourced it should be included. No! There's one more bar to pass: is it significant? When we say to omit that detail from the lead, we don't deny it is true or suggest only cranks support it. We just say it isn't significant enough to be given that place of prominence. YoPienso ( talk) 16:00, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
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I notice this article (and Wikipedia in general) is inconsistent in its use of the Oxford comma. Does anyone know if there is a style guide regarding its use on Wikipedia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dcpoliticaljunkie ( talk • contribs) 09:59, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
Here is what I hope will be a final draft for the Church and State topic. One of the sources, Stone, 1922, needs to be replaced with a more modern source, while the statement/2nd prgh covering 'Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom' needs to be cited. Done
Some of us seem to be spreading our efforts out a bit too thin, so I recommend that we get this topic squared away asap so we don't have several unresolved discussions occurring at the same time.. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 19:57, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
Alternative paragraph proposal:
John Adams was also vitriolic in his condemnation of Calvanism. What Jefferson apart was his denial of the Trinity -- the Triune God which most Christian denominations profess. Jefferson adamantly believed in one creator God, an afterlife with consequences for actions here, and that the sum of the best moral teaching is to love God and to love one's neighbor, as sourced to Meacham. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 14:03, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
So in the following draft, we have a consolidation of all three proposals with references from Thomas Jefferson Foundation, Onuf 2007, Randall 1994, Jefferson, "Life and Morals”, Sanford 1984, Meacham 2012, Wood 2010, Yarborough 2006, Finkleman 2006, Hening 1823, Ferling 2013. New material in bold.
Jefferson was influenced by deism,[236] although he generally referred to himself as a Christian. He abandoned "orthodox" Christianity after his review of New Testament teachings.[237] Nevertheless, in 1803 he asserted, “I am Christian, in the only sense in which [Jesus] wished any one to be."<Randall, 1858, pp.556> Jefferson praised the morality of Jesus and edited a compilation of his biblical teachings, omitting miraculous or supernatural references. He titled the work, The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, commonly known today as the Jefferson Bible.[238] Jefferson was baptized into and was a governing member of his local Episcopal Church, which he later attended with his daughters. [1][239]
He donated to the American Bible Society, saying that the four evangelists delivered a “pure and sublime system of morality” to mankind. He thought Americans would rationally create “Apiarian” religion, extracting the best traditions of every denomination.<Meacham, 2012, pp. 472-473> And he contributed generously to several local denominations nearby Monticello.<Randall, 1994, pp. 555> Acknowledging that organized religion always would be a factor in political life for good or ill, he encouraged the application of reason to questions of faith. He believed in a creator God, an afterlife and the sum of religion as loving God and neighbors. But he also controversially renounced the conventional Christian Trinity, denying Jesus divinity as the Son of God.<Meacham, 2012, pp. 471-473><Sanford, 1984, pp. 85-86.>
Jefferson was firmly anticlerical, writing that in "every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon."[241] In 1777, he drafted the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. The Act was ratified in 1786, making it unlawful to compel men to attend or donate money to any state sanctioned religious establishment and declaring that men "shall be free to profess ... their opinions in matters of religion."[242] He once supported banning clergy from public office but later relented.[243] Early in 1802 Jefferson reiterated his agreement with the Danbury Connecticut Baptist Association, “that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man and his God”. He interpreted the First Amendment as having built “a wall of separation between Church and State.”<Meacham, 2012, pp. 369-370> The phrase 'Separation of Church and State' has been cited several times by the Supreme Court in its interpretation of the Establishment Clause. The Statute for Religious Freedom is one of only three accomplishments Jefferson chose to have inscribed in the epitaph on his gravestone.<Peterson, 2003, p.315> <W.W. Hening, ed., Statutes at Large of Virginia, vol. 12 (1823): 84–86.>
Jefferson's unorthodox religious beliefs became an important issue in the 1800 presidential contest. Opponents attacked him as an atheist and infidel; Wood described it as "the most damaging charge [Jefferson's] opponents ever made against him".[244] Federalists prophesied that Jefferson’s election would call down God’s vengeance on the United States, New Englanders were warned he would confiscate Bibles, the choice was between “a religious president or … Jefferson and no God.” <Ferling, 2013, p. 322> As president, Jefferson countered the accusations by praising religion in his inaugural address and attending services at the Capitol.[244]
TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 15:00, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
The text currently states: "But he also controversially renounced the conventional Christian Trinity, denying Jesus' divinity as the Son of God."
This is simply Nontrinitarianism and it was an ideological movement during the Age of Enlightenment. For example the Doctrine of the Trinity Act 1813 allowed Nontrinitarian worship in United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. How controversial is taking a common stance of your day and age? Dimadick ( talk) 08:17, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
We seem to be spreading ourselves out way too thin here, introducing new topics/issues before existing ones are resolved. I would recommend that we resolve and compromise on the non resolved issues before we initiate new ones. I was gone one day, only to come back and see several new issues appear while the existing issues still need to be resolved. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 21:20, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
I've changed "Virginia" to "Colony of Virginia" as clarifying and removed "and was a British subject at birth" as redundant. I checked out several other bios of Americans born before the revolution and didn't find that note. It's self-evident that a person born in the Colonies was a British subject. We may as well add that TJ was a white male homo sapiens. YoPienso ( talk) 05:27, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
The article already says the colonies were "under the authority of the British Crown." While that does not necessarily mean the colonists had the same nationality status as subjects born in Great Britain, its clear that they were subject to the King. Other than the U.S. and a few other countries, the status of British subject has never been revoked for citizens of former colonies, although they are now called "Commonwealth citizens." So Indians resident in the UK today may vote, sit on juries, etc. But we do not add "Commonwealth citizen" to the biographies of Commonwealth citizens. TFD ( talk) 02:02, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
British law accepted that Americans had lost British nationality. See Doe v Acklam 1824. While some British captains may not have, the main U.S. complaint was that naturalized Americans were still considered British subjects. More often the captains put the burden of proof that sailors were not British subjects, and ignored proof even when provided. But Jefferson was not naturalized or impressed into the Royal Navy, and American envoys sent to the UK were not charged with treason. TFD ( talk) 19:10, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
Certainly Doe v Acklam was decided in 1824, but it merely confirmed what had been the law since 1783 and had been accepted by the British government. There is nothing special about Jefferson's nationality that distinguishes him from any of the other leaders of the U.S. revolution. TFD ( talk) 19:39, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
No one questions that Jefferson was born a British subject. But the fact it is mentioned once in a book on Jefferson and Architecture does not elevate it to the sufficient weight it merits inclusion. And I do not need a source that says there was nothing special about his nationality you need a source that says it was. Scholars do not spend a lot of time writing explaining why facts are not special. What do you think was special about his status compared for example with G. Washington? TFD ( talk) 20:12, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
Again, no one questions that Jefferson was a British subject. The issue is whether it is sufficiently important to include, per "Balancing aspects." There's lots of trivia that can be reliably sourced. If we added it all, the article would run into thousands of pages. TFD ( talk) 21:41, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
If we just stick with what historians consider important than we will finish quickly. But if we throw in every bit of trivia that someone finds important then it will take a long time. TFD ( talk) 22:36, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
So you abandoned your argument we should mention Jefferson's nationality because it is reliably sourced. You now argue it is "significant," which is what "Balancing aspects" requires. But that guideline requires we provide "a weight appropriate to the weight of that aspect in the body of reliable sources on the subject." TFD ( talk) 22:08, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
A Merry Christmas to us all, God bless us every one!
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Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2016!!! |
Hello Thomas Jefferson, may you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this
seasonal occasion. Spread the
WikiLove by wishing another user a
Merry Christmas and a
Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you a heartfelt and warm greetings for Christmas and New Year 2016. Spread the love by adding {{ subst:Seasonal Greetings}} to other user talk pages. |
.
LOL!! I don't know how to make it out to all you editors, but I sorta like wishing that TJ be surrounded by peace, success and happiness.
YoPienso (
talk) 20:46, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
As @ The Four Deuces: points out, there is (also) nothing in the biography about Jefferson's opposition to standing armies, or his policies on national defense in general. This should be covered in conjunction with West Point, in terms of Jefferson's thinking. As McDonald points out, much of the debate between Jefferson and the Federalists, esp Hamilton, eager for war with France, is what prompted Jefferson to replace military elitists with Republican minded officers. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 20:47, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
In 1802, the President and Congress established the United States Military Academy at West Point.[116] In the face of open contempt of the new civilian rule expressed by many officers and appointed officials in the Army establishment, Jefferson undertook to “Republicanize” the Army to ensure its loyalty to future elected administrations. While the military academy was central to his long term purpose consistent with his devotion to education, Jefferson also immediately replaced Federalists in government, eliminated offices by legislation and insisted that new appointments only went to Republican faithful.<Crackel, Theodore J., in McDonald, Robert ed. 2004 p.100> This was consistent with Jefferson’s mature “contextualist” interpretation of the Constitution in which he allowed broad interpretation for the federal government in nationalistic spheres without shared powers strictly enumerated with the states.<Mayer, David N. in McDonald, ed. 2004 p.55> Subsequently, West Point alumni in uniform and as civilian leaders from 1802-1833 furnished both administrative and executive national leadership in the frontier territories, both nationally oriented and nationwide.<Watson, Samuel J. in McDonald, Robert ed. 2004 p.155>
As I said in my opening statement in this section, "this is a perfect example of whether the article should reflect the historic times as documented by good scholarship, or recent historiographic fashion with anachronistic blind eye.” After a couple of days of discussion, I’d like to see another poll for agree/disagree with the passage.
Are you sure purging all references outside of the major biographers is the way to GA status in a collaborative venture? I do like the idea of cutting text with references to original source documents which depend upon editor interpretation for context. That is a favorite technique of Lost Cause ideologues to insinuate their POV into history articles. It may be that the Declaration says something which implies something of interest to the modern ear, but if it is not quoted in context in a major biography, the related passage should be cut from this article.
Okay, for the sake of discussion, What are the five major published biographies published within the last ten years that you would require as reliable sources for another GA review? Is that a concrete limit? I note Meacham devotes 0.6% to Hemings of his 504 pages of narrative, we have 275 of 11517 words, or 2.4%. That is four times in excess for the GA review by the “major biography” test. Am I getting the point? TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 06:23, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
The gist of the proposed passage is that West Point is but a part of presidential policy worth noting. WP is not to mirror other encyclopedias, but it is to make use of reliable secondary sources in the main. Describing how Jefferson makes an army’s officer corps representative of the country and so subservient to the nation and its peaceable transitions of power by popular election is laudable for a democratic republic, but not “hagiography”. West Point is a part of that Jefferson Administration strategy, along with others mentioned in the general second paragraph of the “Presidency" section. It is true that the proposed passage is not only about the USMA as an academy, as that would be too narrow for inclusion in this article, which the proposal is not.
The gist of my answer to the objection is clearly stated, we have 4-6 times on the Sally Hemings affair as Meacham, -- the other index citations on her going to school with Jefferson’s daughter in Paris and Sally's sons careers as artisans and managers cannot be counted as addressing the affair. I make a proposal well sourced and less than half the word count of what the article spends on an informal domestic arrangement. It narrates the wider Jefferson administration policy which West Point was but a part. Jefferson did not object to differences of opinion, he objected to cabals of career officials within the federal government vocally opposing the administration of a constitutionally elected administration. In the Age of Napoleon perverting the French republic, it was not a trivial policy concern for Jefferson's administration. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 19:14, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
-- Gwillhickers ( talk) 22:55, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
@ Alanscottwalker: I observe your last post as another ad hominem attack, disruptive of the page. You may need to take a voluntary break. You again attack saying I “misrepresented" Crackel, Mayer and Watson in the cited references, that I have “claimed” them as my own, and that I have supposed that their published accounts by the University of Virginia Press have not been peer reviewed. You again demonstrate personal vitriol overcoming any judgment in the field that you may otherwise possess. I note you charge me with not rewriting the passage, then ignore the rewrites and charge me again with not rewriting the passage, posting above it out of sequence to violate WP Talk page procedure for your purposes. Thus a simple unsubstantiated assertion becomes another contrived personal attack. What is the grade level of Draft #3? It is not "off the charts". Try taking out the citations.
You have demonstrated elsewhere this week that you do not understand the historical context of this period, particularly the role of the loyal opposition in the British Parliamentary system, and you fail to understand the characters of the time, charging them with a “simpering honor” which was "no honor at all", whether as conservatives, moderates or radicals as they approached and changed towards the issue of independence. History should be written as contingency in a balanced way fairly representing all actors without a blanket contempt of their characters.
NEVERTHELESS, I apologize for offending your POV. It seems the sticking point is the last sentence, what you call the “hagiography” of reporting West Point alumni were nationalists on the frontier 1802-1833, whether in military service or as civilian leaders. But I did not misrepresent Watson here, I have not claimed the authorship as my own. And you again unthinkingly deny the peer review of scholarship of a UVA Press publication, then disingenuously deny that you have done so. Simply because you may unthinkingly oppose military men with a sense of 19th century honor does not mean accounts of their nationalist activity during Jefferson's administration and 1802-1833 must never see the light of day in a section on his presidency. But as I say, I do not mean to push you over the edge of commons sense and civility. If I cut the last sentence, will the passage be acceptable? TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 12:45, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Draft #3.
In 1802, the President and Congress established the United States Military Academy at West Point.[116] During the election campaign and at the beginning of his administration, Jefferson faced open contempt by many officers and appointed officials in the Army establishment. The constitutionally elected president undertook to “Republicanize” the Army to ensure its loyalty to future elected administrations. The military academy was central to his long term purpose consistent with his devotion to education. But Jefferson also immediately replaced Federalists in government, eliminated offices by legislation and insisted that new appointments went to the Republican faithful.<Crackel, Theodore J., in McDonald, Robert ed. 2004 p.100> This was consistent with Jefferson’s mature “contextualist” interpretation of the Constitution in which he allowed broad interpretation for the federal government in nationalistic spheres but still insisted on strictly enumerated powers when they were shared with the states.<Mayer, David N. in McDonald, ed. 2004 p.55> Subsequently from 1802-1833, West Point alumni in uniform and as civilian leaders furnished nationalist administrative and executive leadership in the frontier territories.<Watson, Samuel J. in McDonald, Robert ed. 2004 p.155>
TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 12:43, 21 December 2015 (UTC) TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 12:45, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
@ Alanscottwalker: You again show your failure to grasp the context of the time period when you conflate active duty military officers on the frontier and USMA academy alumni in territorial leadership positions with “future Army administrators came from West Point”. You misrepresent me again, that is not what I wrote. I doubt this misstatement of the passage is perfidy, I suppose it mere carelessness in unthinking opposition, as you have no advanced no substantial reasons for opposition, but persist in accusing me of original research when I have faithfully reported reliable sources with properly referenced citations.
You failed to properly read the citation on page 100 which is a positive declarative assertion on the part of Crackle. Instead you have set up a straw man supposing my proposed passage “appears to come from” another page, instead of taking me at my word to read page 100, another unfounded personal attack by misdirection. I'm not "attributing ideas in the text". At [6] the chapters in the Table of Contents (scroll down) are linked alongside each article's page number, you can see the Crackle article beginning on page 99. On page 66, Mayer notes that Crackle “persuasively” argues on the basis of evidentiary factual scholarship, "the military academy provided an opportunity to ‘republicanize' the army under the command of the Republican administrations", -- a paraphrase of the Crackle section I wrote as "The constitutionally elected president undertook to “Republicanize” the Army to ensure its loyalty to future elected administrations.” I am paraphrasing Crackle, not Mayer’s opinion on Crackle. Pray, just for the literary exercise of it, in a spirit of collaboration, provide a concise example of your own composition covering the same material --- three paragraphs from page 100 -- so that I might learn from your example.
The paraphrase as now written is simpler than the original proposal, and no elaborate groundwork of comparative intellectual history is required for understanding the passage such as you suppose in a reductio ad absurdum. Jefferson believed that "This" "republicanizing" the Army on several fronts at the same time was justified in the Constitution, including creation of the USMA by Congressional appointment, not national appointments by scholarly merit. “Contextualist” interpretation of the Constitution is adequately explained in the proposed passage as, "broad interpretation for the federal government in nationalistic spheres but still insisting on strictly enumerated powers when they were shared with the states.” Jefferson acted in his presidential administration as a nationalist at the Louisiana Purchase, Embargo Act and establishing the USMA during his administration. That is not OR on my part, that is faithful reporting of scholarship published by the UVA Press.
You persist in disputing the scholarship in a UVA Press publication, supposing that Wikipedia "should not state opinions as fact", then saying you don’t dispute the scholarship of Crackle, which you in turn suppose is mere third-party opinion on the part of Mayer. Such self-contradiction is not bad intent, --- making distinctions between historical narrative and historiographic commentary may require some graduate level training in history --- unless you persist in it after your mistake is pointed out to you with reliable sources, internet links, and clear instructions for free access to the cited passage online without a subscription. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 17:26, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Duty, Honor, Country: A History of West Point, Stephen E. Ambrose, 1966 -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 20:24, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
I did not remember
HoppyH inserted "and was a British subject at birth" two weeks ago, where it stood until
I removed it yesterday.
Upon reflection, I offer a new proposal:
Thomas Jefferson was born on April 13, 1743 (April 2, 1743 OS), at the family home in Shadwell in the Colony of Virginia, the third of ten children. [1] He was of English and possibly Welsh descent and was born a British subject. [2] His father, Peter Jefferson, was a planter and surveyor who died when Jefferson was fourteen; his mother was Jane Randolph. [a] In 1745, the Jeffersons moved to Tuckahoe Plantation upon the death of a friend of Peter's who had named him guardian of his children. They returned to Shadwell in 1752, where Peter died in 1757; his estate was divided between his two sons, young Thomas and Randolph. [4] Thomas inherited approximately 5,000 acres (2,000 ha; 7.8 sq mi) of land, including Monticello, and between 20 and 40 slaves, assuming full authority over his property at age 21. [5]
The paragraph needs a rewrite anyway. But my main thought is that although several of us think it's beyond obvious that TJ was born a British subject, it seems to be news for a couple of editors. Those of us who take it as a given may fail to realize that many readers may not be able to do 2 + 2 = 4. What is obvious to some of us is not necessarily obvious to everyone. If adults who have been working on this article for several years didn't realize it, maybe general readers won't realize it either.
YoPienso (
talk) 08:06, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
Indians in the 13 colonies were not British subjects but they were in Canada under the Quebec Act 1774 and today retain the right to live in the U.S. Jefferson's slaves were British subjects provided they were born in British territory under the jurisdiction of the Crown, although as slaves they had no rights. Adams, Jefferson and Washington were all British subjects. None of them emulated British aristocracy. They were considered gentlemen and the U.S. retains some of the formality (the president's wife for example is called the "First Lady".) Whether or not any of this is noteworthy, it belongs in an article about British nationality rather than in each and every article about Americans born in the 18th century. TFD ( talk) 07:55, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Rjensen (
talk) 12:38, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Rjensen, Novaglus made similar arguments. But notice Jefferson did not call himself a British subject, but a subject of the King in America (an "American subject"). He rejects the authority of the British parliament and presumably the privy council. Yet the common understanding of British subjects is that they owe allegiance to the King-in-Parliament and in-Council and that colonial administrations are subordinate municipalities. Parliament continued to legislate for Canada, Australia and New Zealand until the 1980s. Does Jefferson say he has the same nationality as people in England or (and he uses the example of Saxons coming to Britain) a different nationality albeit with the same king? Blackstone said that when Englishmen settled in terra nullius they remained subject to parliament. But Jefferson (and Adams) reject that.
Certainly colonists born in Germany (except Hanover) were not British subjects but similarly aliens in the U.S today are not citizens either.
TFD ( talk) 18:00, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Legally he was a British subject until bilateral cession of his allegiance to the King and being under the King's protection, which happened in 1783. There are many naturalized Americans today who are still nationals of their lands of birth even if they have unilaterally renounced their original citizenship. TFD ( talk) 00:33, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
There is nothing in the 1783 Treaty about acknowledging independence in 1776. In fact loyalists who remained in the colonies throughout the war remained British subjects under both U.S. and UK law provided they moved to British territory following the peace. Loyalist emancipated slaves remained British subjects (there were no Canadian citizens until 1947). Only parliament could naturalize aliens. While slaves were property, they also had the King's protection. As pointed out in Making Foreigners, p. 39, slaves should have been considered subjects. [7] As nationality was not based on statute, it was up to local officials how to interpret this. But it is moot - slaves owed allegiance to the Crown, so did Jefferson and aliens (while in the colonies.) TFD ( talk) 07:00, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
No one was ever subject (in law) to Cromwell. The Virginia Charter refers to the principals of the company - they were all English subjects even before they went beyond the beyond the four seas. But no one questions whether Jefferson was a British subject, merely whether it is relevant. The PMs of the UK, Canada, Australia, NZ and possibly the president of the U.S. were all born British subjects, but there is no reason to add that to their biographies. TFD ( talk) 07:19, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
There was an oath of allegiance to the Commonwealth (see: Engagement controversy and from 14 Sept 1654 to the Lord Protector and the Commonwealth. [8] But that was nullified during the Restoration. I do not know what effect that would have had on nationality law at the time, but it was of no relevance when Jefferson was born. TFD ( talk) 21:31, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
(I do not know why you are bringing up naturalization.) Your sources say the King acknowledged the independence of each and every state, and the also states remained sovereign and independent under the Articles of Confederation. It appears that each state had its own nationality, hence no U.S. nationality. The United States had no executive or judiciary, or the ability to legislate - three branches that seem to define government today. Do you know if any of Jefferson's biographers discuss the issue? TFD ( talk) 23:26, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
The religion section would do well to include a couple of revealing items regarding Jefferson, Jesus and religion. Below are two quotes from Jefferson regarding Jesus. The section should list at least one of these quotes -- along with the content listed below them, which points to Jefferson's leanings where religion was concerned. Jefferson also attended church on a regular basis throughout his life. These prove to be major points where Jefferson and religion are concerned, imo.
Following @ Gwillhickers and Cmguy777: in search of a consensus, I added two citations to Gwhillhickers previous two and two, so the entire section would now read as follows:
Jefferson was influenced by deism,[236] although he generally referred to himself as a Christian. He abandoned "orthodox" Christianity after his review of New Testament teachings.[237] Nevertheless, in 1803 he asserted, “I am Christian, in the only sense in which [Jesus] wished any one to be." [1] Jefferson praised the morality of Jesus and edited a compilation of his biblical teachings, omitting miraculous or supernatural references. He titled the work, The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, commonly known today as the Jefferson Bible.[238] Jefferson was a governing member of his local Episcopal Church, which he attended with his daughters.[239]
He donated to the American Bible Society, saying that the four evangelists delivered a “pure and sublime system of morality” to mankind. He thought Americans would rationally create “Apiarian” religion, extracting the best traditions of every denomination. [2] And he contributed generously to several local denominations nearby Monticello. [3] Acknowledging that organized religion always would be a factor in political life for good or ill, he encouraged the application of reason to questions of faith. He believed in a creator God, an afterlife and the sum of religion as loving God and neighbors. But he also controversially renounced the conventional Christian Trinity, predicting that a “genuine doctrine of only one God” would be generally adopted within a generation. [4]
Jefferson was firmly anticlerical, writing that in "every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon."[241] In 1777, he drafted the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. The Act was ratified in 1786, making it unlawful to compel men to attend or donate money to any state sanctioned religious establishment and declaring that men "shall be free to profess ... their opinions in matters of religion."[242] He once supported banning clergy from public office but later relented.[243] Early in 1802 Jefferson reiterated his agreement with the Danbury Connecticut Baptist Association, “that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man and his God”. He interpreted the First Amendment as having built “a wall of separation between Church and State.” [5]
Jefferson's unorthodox religious beliefs became an important issue in the 1800 presidential contest. Opponents attacked him as an atheist and infidel; Wood described it as "the most damaging charge [Jefferson's] opponents ever made against him".[244] Federalists prophesied that Jefferson’s election would call down God’s vengeance on the United States, New Englanders were warned he would confiscate Bibles, the choice was between “a religious president or … Jefferson and no God.” [6] As president, Jefferson countered the accusations by praising religion in his inaugural address and attending services at the Capitol.[244]
TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 14:18, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
I think this adds too much detail, which is best left in a separate article. There are so many aspects to Jefferson, that we cannot provide a great deal of extensive detail. Also, the suggested additions change the weight to suggest that Jefferson may have been more religious than generally believed. If there is evidence that some informed sources believe that, then we should add it. Saying that he went to church a lot implies he was religious without overtly saying so. TFD ( talk) 17:48, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
@ The Four Deuces: Gwillhickers point is that the passage does not yet have the length of lesser elements in the Jefferson biography given the relative weight of modern historiography. @ Cmguy777: The passage does not relate the career of an evangelist such as Billy Graham. So yes, you have proved “There is no record of Jefferson doing any of these things.”, but the passage does not relate any unrecorded details which might suppose evangelical behavior, so there are no grounds for your expressed concern.
Although it is possible to imagine that some do, most atheists do not regularly attend church with their families, give to multiple denominations and underwrite Bible societies. There is still some confusion among editors here; Jefferson believed in one creator God, and professed himself a Christian, “in the only sense in which [Jesus] wished one to be.” And tolerant, eclectic, rational denominations based on the actual teachings of Jesus of Nazareth would contribute to good society in the republic.
Now are we to put Jefferson on trial, whether he was a “true” Christian by editor consensus based on slave holding? Meacham, a reliable source, says that Jefferson believed that the dictum, love God and one’s neighbor as oneself, was the summary of all good ethical teaching. Meacham does not assert that Jefferson “loved his slaves as he loved himself”, that is outside the scope of the proposed narrative. Let’s stick to reliable sources rather than conjuring tangents out of thin air to begin an unsourced witch hunt.
The point of the rewrite is to communicate a) Jefferson’s understanding of the idiosyncratic Christianity which he adhered to, b) Jefferson’s understanding of the social function of religion in a republic as a public good, and c) opponent’s use of Jefferson’s denial of a Triune God, which is judged in the literature as “the most damaging charge opponents ever made against him". TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 07:47, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
Let's not overshadow the important facts with selective takes and long winded opinion about what summary style and weight is -- esp since distributing weight consistently has not been observed (not to mention the glaring gaps in the narrative) since the article was nominated for GA.
Jefferson thought a military academy was needed to supply the country with first class officers, engineers and strategists, rather than relying on other countries (outsourcing) for these. The following statements exemplifies the importance Jefferson placed on establishing a national military academy.
... More overlooked items forthcoming. Lede or no lede, Jefferson's involvement and thinking regarding West Point needs to be better covered in the biography. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 23:43, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
I hope this debate can be settled quickly and amicably.
@
TheVirginiaHistorian: Alanscottwalker isn't personally attacking you.
@
Alanscottwalker: I believe you're mistaken about "argument," as
I've explained earlier. The basis of modern historical writing is argument. Other historians agree with Crackel's interpretation.
Onuf.
Onuf. (Same essay, I think, but snippets are elusive.) Onuf's imprimatur is weighty. A lesser scholar,
Langston, says the same. There is no need to identify Crackel's writing as an opinion.
But none of this is even necessary since TVH's proposed draft doesn't fit into the article. What say we drop the proposal and the discussion?
YoPienso (
talk) 20:08, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
clarification and discussion
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(but take exception to Yopienso's argument. I won't repeat why (you have already read it), but note, even your new links to Onuf and Langston explicitly attribute to Crackel, in the text. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 20:30, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
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Pushing to include the Military Peace Establishment Act, Part 1
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Talk page overwhelmingI think at this point we need to start discussing the idea of compromise because the 'discussion' over the last couple of weeks has gone back and forth where accusations and not so friendly talk are now overwhelming the talk page. There needs to be a compromise. I've lost count of the collapsing boxes, i.e.inside other collapsing boxes, now on the page. I have never seen a discussion over such simple items grow to such proportions. We have alienated any newcomers to the discussion with all this long winded and highly opinionated talk. Gwillhickers ( talk) 22:34, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Frankly, I see editors' behavior to be impeding progress on this article, which is ironic, since all of us sincerely want it to be excellent.
Since I cannot help improve the article, it's a waste of my time to continue to try. That's why I said good-bye, Gwillhickers. I wasn't being flip. YoPienso ( talk) 18:48, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Republican maxims of Jefferson's administration"And TVH and CMguy77 are muddying their position rather than clarifying it. First, West Point itself was so important it had to be included. Now, "republicanizing" the army is of prime importance." YoPienso (talk) 5:05 pm, 27 December.
Edit to lede (Notes on the State of Virginia & Declaration)I've been trying to do some copyediting/removing redundancies in the article, but made this edit to the lede and thought I'd bring it to the talk since it lengthens the lede but I believe that the information belongs there. Aside from some reorganizing, this is the key sentences (as I edited):
From:
The first part should be uncontroversial, plenty of sources describe Notes as the most important book published before 1800 and we have the sources to back it up. The second part, describing the preamble to the Declaration, does significantly expand the lede but I think — while describing him as a "skilled writer" — the cultural relevance of the Declaration of Independence is a top-line item that most readers would want to read on-the-top, so to speak. Dcpoliticaljunkie ( talk) 15:51, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
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User:Dcpoliticaljunkie and I seem to disagree about the amount of detail about Jefferson's marriage that should go into the lede. Jefferson is a topic with an enormous amount of material. The lede can only give a very rough summary of the most important aspects of his life. I don't think the cause of Martha's death is important enough to make the cut (it's his biography, not hers), and her request that he should not remarry is widely reported, but considered apocryphal by some experts. So I would prefer to exclude these from the lede. But I'm happy to hear other opinions. -- Stephan Schulz ( talk) 14:14, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
The @ TheVirginiaHistorian: seems to be incorporating the items in the original proposal above into the text nicely. Bear in mind @ Cmguy777: that the place for Jefferson's personal religious views would be under Religion. Coverage of Church and State, which albeit relates to religion in terms of how it effected government and ultimately, the people, belongs under Political and religious views. Both TVH and Coemgenus mention an important issue. i.e.Jefferson's non belief in a Holy Trinity. We might want to mention this specifically under the Religion section, which, all by itself, would put Jefferson's beliefs in perspective with conventional Christian thought.
If there is any concern or doubt as to the importance Jefferson placed on separating the church from the government (State), I would recommend reading the first couple of paragraphs in Chapter XVII in Jefferson's Notes on the State of Virginia. (The 2nd paragraph really nails the idea of Jefferson's disdain for religious involvement in government.) Again, the idea of separating the church from governmental affairs was the crux of Jefferson's thinking regarding Governmental reform for the simple reason that the Church too often was at the center of corruption during Jefferson's time and before. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 19:32, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
@ TheVirginiaHistorian: Are you going to include Jefferson's Virginia Statute for Religious in your above draft? Also, it seems we need a good intro statement for Jefferson and Church and State. Could you incorportate the following sentence into your draft? "Jefferson was a prominent proponent of Separation of Church and State throughout his political career". Thnx -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 23:56, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
We should get this settled once and for all.
Some editors feel West Point should be mentioned in the lede some do not. The item has been included and deleted several times now so we should try to resolve this.
Here is the statement in question. Please signify for or against for its inclusion in the lede. Please leave any comments under comments.
Jefferson founded the United States Military Academy at West Point.
West Point is one of Jefferson's major and unprecedented accomplishments, covered by more than enough RS's to be mentioned in lede. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 19:59, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
It seems some editors don't understand WP:WEIGHT and WP:SUMMARY, so here's a brief explanation. First, WP:WEIGHT is found in Neutral Point of View ( WP:NPOV), second of the five basic "pillars" of Wikipedia ( WP:5P). Copy and paste:
Note in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources and how undue weight can be given . . .. This principle is pertinent to questions about Sally Hemings. We are supposed to emphasize what the majority of mainstream historians agree on. We stick with the academic consensus. Yes, we include contrarians' views, but we do not give their opinions the same prominence, or weight, if you will, that we do to the consensus of mainstream academicians. This doesn't imply that the contrarians aren't educated or part of academia, but shows their views are not accepted by the majority of their peers. Now, summary style ( WP:SUMMARY), an editing guideline, is essential when writing an encyclopedia article for Wikipedia. An article here is NOT an exhaustive study of the subject, but a summary. Copy and paste from the "Rationale" section of that page:
This is pertinent to the inclusion of West Point in the lead. When I call that "trivia," I'm not trivializing the importance of the U.S. Military Academy! I'm saying that signing the bill that established it wasn't greatly important in TJ's life. No major general biographer gives much space to that detail. Of course books or articles written specifically on TJ and West Point do! But this article we're writing is supposed to be a general biography. Therefore, we do NOT emphasize details that were of relatively little importance in his long and productive life. Some editors seem to think that if a fact is verifiable and well-sourced it should be included. No! There's one more bar to pass: is it significant? When we say to omit that detail from the lead, we don't deny it is true or suggest only cranks support it. We just say it isn't significant enough to be given that place of prominence. YoPienso ( talk) 16:00, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
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I notice this article (and Wikipedia in general) is inconsistent in its use of the Oxford comma. Does anyone know if there is a style guide regarding its use on Wikipedia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dcpoliticaljunkie ( talk • contribs) 09:59, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
Here is what I hope will be a final draft for the Church and State topic. One of the sources, Stone, 1922, needs to be replaced with a more modern source, while the statement/2nd prgh covering 'Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom' needs to be cited. Done
Some of us seem to be spreading our efforts out a bit too thin, so I recommend that we get this topic squared away asap so we don't have several unresolved discussions occurring at the same time.. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 19:57, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
Alternative paragraph proposal:
John Adams was also vitriolic in his condemnation of Calvanism. What Jefferson apart was his denial of the Trinity -- the Triune God which most Christian denominations profess. Jefferson adamantly believed in one creator God, an afterlife with consequences for actions here, and that the sum of the best moral teaching is to love God and to love one's neighbor, as sourced to Meacham. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 14:03, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
So in the following draft, we have a consolidation of all three proposals with references from Thomas Jefferson Foundation, Onuf 2007, Randall 1994, Jefferson, "Life and Morals”, Sanford 1984, Meacham 2012, Wood 2010, Yarborough 2006, Finkleman 2006, Hening 1823, Ferling 2013. New material in bold.
Jefferson was influenced by deism,[236] although he generally referred to himself as a Christian. He abandoned "orthodox" Christianity after his review of New Testament teachings.[237] Nevertheless, in 1803 he asserted, “I am Christian, in the only sense in which [Jesus] wished any one to be."<Randall, 1858, pp.556> Jefferson praised the morality of Jesus and edited a compilation of his biblical teachings, omitting miraculous or supernatural references. He titled the work, The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, commonly known today as the Jefferson Bible.[238] Jefferson was baptized into and was a governing member of his local Episcopal Church, which he later attended with his daughters. [1][239]
He donated to the American Bible Society, saying that the four evangelists delivered a “pure and sublime system of morality” to mankind. He thought Americans would rationally create “Apiarian” religion, extracting the best traditions of every denomination.<Meacham, 2012, pp. 472-473> And he contributed generously to several local denominations nearby Monticello.<Randall, 1994, pp. 555> Acknowledging that organized religion always would be a factor in political life for good or ill, he encouraged the application of reason to questions of faith. He believed in a creator God, an afterlife and the sum of religion as loving God and neighbors. But he also controversially renounced the conventional Christian Trinity, denying Jesus divinity as the Son of God.<Meacham, 2012, pp. 471-473><Sanford, 1984, pp. 85-86.>
Jefferson was firmly anticlerical, writing that in "every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon."[241] In 1777, he drafted the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. The Act was ratified in 1786, making it unlawful to compel men to attend or donate money to any state sanctioned religious establishment and declaring that men "shall be free to profess ... their opinions in matters of religion."[242] He once supported banning clergy from public office but later relented.[243] Early in 1802 Jefferson reiterated his agreement with the Danbury Connecticut Baptist Association, “that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man and his God”. He interpreted the First Amendment as having built “a wall of separation between Church and State.”<Meacham, 2012, pp. 369-370> The phrase 'Separation of Church and State' has been cited several times by the Supreme Court in its interpretation of the Establishment Clause. The Statute for Religious Freedom is one of only three accomplishments Jefferson chose to have inscribed in the epitaph on his gravestone.<Peterson, 2003, p.315> <W.W. Hening, ed., Statutes at Large of Virginia, vol. 12 (1823): 84–86.>
Jefferson's unorthodox religious beliefs became an important issue in the 1800 presidential contest. Opponents attacked him as an atheist and infidel; Wood described it as "the most damaging charge [Jefferson's] opponents ever made against him".[244] Federalists prophesied that Jefferson’s election would call down God’s vengeance on the United States, New Englanders were warned he would confiscate Bibles, the choice was between “a religious president or … Jefferson and no God.” <Ferling, 2013, p. 322> As president, Jefferson countered the accusations by praising religion in his inaugural address and attending services at the Capitol.[244]
TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 15:00, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
The text currently states: "But he also controversially renounced the conventional Christian Trinity, denying Jesus' divinity as the Son of God."
This is simply Nontrinitarianism and it was an ideological movement during the Age of Enlightenment. For example the Doctrine of the Trinity Act 1813 allowed Nontrinitarian worship in United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. How controversial is taking a common stance of your day and age? Dimadick ( talk) 08:17, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
We seem to be spreading ourselves out way too thin here, introducing new topics/issues before existing ones are resolved. I would recommend that we resolve and compromise on the non resolved issues before we initiate new ones. I was gone one day, only to come back and see several new issues appear while the existing issues still need to be resolved. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 21:20, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
I've changed "Virginia" to "Colony of Virginia" as clarifying and removed "and was a British subject at birth" as redundant. I checked out several other bios of Americans born before the revolution and didn't find that note. It's self-evident that a person born in the Colonies was a British subject. We may as well add that TJ was a white male homo sapiens. YoPienso ( talk) 05:27, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
The article already says the colonies were "under the authority of the British Crown." While that does not necessarily mean the colonists had the same nationality status as subjects born in Great Britain, its clear that they were subject to the King. Other than the U.S. and a few other countries, the status of British subject has never been revoked for citizens of former colonies, although they are now called "Commonwealth citizens." So Indians resident in the UK today may vote, sit on juries, etc. But we do not add "Commonwealth citizen" to the biographies of Commonwealth citizens. TFD ( talk) 02:02, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
British law accepted that Americans had lost British nationality. See Doe v Acklam 1824. While some British captains may not have, the main U.S. complaint was that naturalized Americans were still considered British subjects. More often the captains put the burden of proof that sailors were not British subjects, and ignored proof even when provided. But Jefferson was not naturalized or impressed into the Royal Navy, and American envoys sent to the UK were not charged with treason. TFD ( talk) 19:10, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
Certainly Doe v Acklam was decided in 1824, but it merely confirmed what had been the law since 1783 and had been accepted by the British government. There is nothing special about Jefferson's nationality that distinguishes him from any of the other leaders of the U.S. revolution. TFD ( talk) 19:39, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
No one questions that Jefferson was born a British subject. But the fact it is mentioned once in a book on Jefferson and Architecture does not elevate it to the sufficient weight it merits inclusion. And I do not need a source that says there was nothing special about his nationality you need a source that says it was. Scholars do not spend a lot of time writing explaining why facts are not special. What do you think was special about his status compared for example with G. Washington? TFD ( talk) 20:12, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
Again, no one questions that Jefferson was a British subject. The issue is whether it is sufficiently important to include, per "Balancing aspects." There's lots of trivia that can be reliably sourced. If we added it all, the article would run into thousands of pages. TFD ( talk) 21:41, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
If we just stick with what historians consider important than we will finish quickly. But if we throw in every bit of trivia that someone finds important then it will take a long time. TFD ( talk) 22:36, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
So you abandoned your argument we should mention Jefferson's nationality because it is reliably sourced. You now argue it is "significant," which is what "Balancing aspects" requires. But that guideline requires we provide "a weight appropriate to the weight of that aspect in the body of reliable sources on the subject." TFD ( talk) 22:08, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
A Merry Christmas to us all, God bless us every one!
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Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2016!!! |
Hello Thomas Jefferson, may you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this
seasonal occasion. Spread the
WikiLove by wishing another user a
Merry Christmas and a
Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you a heartfelt and warm greetings for Christmas and New Year 2016. Spread the love by adding {{ subst:Seasonal Greetings}} to other user talk pages. |
.
LOL!! I don't know how to make it out to all you editors, but I sorta like wishing that TJ be surrounded by peace, success and happiness.
YoPienso (
talk) 20:46, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
As @ The Four Deuces: points out, there is (also) nothing in the biography about Jefferson's opposition to standing armies, or his policies on national defense in general. This should be covered in conjunction with West Point, in terms of Jefferson's thinking. As McDonald points out, much of the debate between Jefferson and the Federalists, esp Hamilton, eager for war with France, is what prompted Jefferson to replace military elitists with Republican minded officers. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 20:47, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
In 1802, the President and Congress established the United States Military Academy at West Point.[116] In the face of open contempt of the new civilian rule expressed by many officers and appointed officials in the Army establishment, Jefferson undertook to “Republicanize” the Army to ensure its loyalty to future elected administrations. While the military academy was central to his long term purpose consistent with his devotion to education, Jefferson also immediately replaced Federalists in government, eliminated offices by legislation and insisted that new appointments only went to Republican faithful.<Crackel, Theodore J., in McDonald, Robert ed. 2004 p.100> This was consistent with Jefferson’s mature “contextualist” interpretation of the Constitution in which he allowed broad interpretation for the federal government in nationalistic spheres without shared powers strictly enumerated with the states.<Mayer, David N. in McDonald, ed. 2004 p.55> Subsequently, West Point alumni in uniform and as civilian leaders from 1802-1833 furnished both administrative and executive national leadership in the frontier territories, both nationally oriented and nationwide.<Watson, Samuel J. in McDonald, Robert ed. 2004 p.155>
As I said in my opening statement in this section, "this is a perfect example of whether the article should reflect the historic times as documented by good scholarship, or recent historiographic fashion with anachronistic blind eye.” After a couple of days of discussion, I’d like to see another poll for agree/disagree with the passage.
Are you sure purging all references outside of the major biographers is the way to GA status in a collaborative venture? I do like the idea of cutting text with references to original source documents which depend upon editor interpretation for context. That is a favorite technique of Lost Cause ideologues to insinuate their POV into history articles. It may be that the Declaration says something which implies something of interest to the modern ear, but if it is not quoted in context in a major biography, the related passage should be cut from this article.
Okay, for the sake of discussion, What are the five major published biographies published within the last ten years that you would require as reliable sources for another GA review? Is that a concrete limit? I note Meacham devotes 0.6% to Hemings of his 504 pages of narrative, we have 275 of 11517 words, or 2.4%. That is four times in excess for the GA review by the “major biography” test. Am I getting the point? TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 06:23, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
The gist of the proposed passage is that West Point is but a part of presidential policy worth noting. WP is not to mirror other encyclopedias, but it is to make use of reliable secondary sources in the main. Describing how Jefferson makes an army’s officer corps representative of the country and so subservient to the nation and its peaceable transitions of power by popular election is laudable for a democratic republic, but not “hagiography”. West Point is a part of that Jefferson Administration strategy, along with others mentioned in the general second paragraph of the “Presidency" section. It is true that the proposed passage is not only about the USMA as an academy, as that would be too narrow for inclusion in this article, which the proposal is not.
The gist of my answer to the objection is clearly stated, we have 4-6 times on the Sally Hemings affair as Meacham, -- the other index citations on her going to school with Jefferson’s daughter in Paris and Sally's sons careers as artisans and managers cannot be counted as addressing the affair. I make a proposal well sourced and less than half the word count of what the article spends on an informal domestic arrangement. It narrates the wider Jefferson administration policy which West Point was but a part. Jefferson did not object to differences of opinion, he objected to cabals of career officials within the federal government vocally opposing the administration of a constitutionally elected administration. In the Age of Napoleon perverting the French republic, it was not a trivial policy concern for Jefferson's administration. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 19:14, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
-- Gwillhickers ( talk) 22:55, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
@ Alanscottwalker: I observe your last post as another ad hominem attack, disruptive of the page. You may need to take a voluntary break. You again attack saying I “misrepresented" Crackel, Mayer and Watson in the cited references, that I have “claimed” them as my own, and that I have supposed that their published accounts by the University of Virginia Press have not been peer reviewed. You again demonstrate personal vitriol overcoming any judgment in the field that you may otherwise possess. I note you charge me with not rewriting the passage, then ignore the rewrites and charge me again with not rewriting the passage, posting above it out of sequence to violate WP Talk page procedure for your purposes. Thus a simple unsubstantiated assertion becomes another contrived personal attack. What is the grade level of Draft #3? It is not "off the charts". Try taking out the citations.
You have demonstrated elsewhere this week that you do not understand the historical context of this period, particularly the role of the loyal opposition in the British Parliamentary system, and you fail to understand the characters of the time, charging them with a “simpering honor” which was "no honor at all", whether as conservatives, moderates or radicals as they approached and changed towards the issue of independence. History should be written as contingency in a balanced way fairly representing all actors without a blanket contempt of their characters.
NEVERTHELESS, I apologize for offending your POV. It seems the sticking point is the last sentence, what you call the “hagiography” of reporting West Point alumni were nationalists on the frontier 1802-1833, whether in military service or as civilian leaders. But I did not misrepresent Watson here, I have not claimed the authorship as my own. And you again unthinkingly deny the peer review of scholarship of a UVA Press publication, then disingenuously deny that you have done so. Simply because you may unthinkingly oppose military men with a sense of 19th century honor does not mean accounts of their nationalist activity during Jefferson's administration and 1802-1833 must never see the light of day in a section on his presidency. But as I say, I do not mean to push you over the edge of commons sense and civility. If I cut the last sentence, will the passage be acceptable? TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 12:45, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Draft #3.
In 1802, the President and Congress established the United States Military Academy at West Point.[116] During the election campaign and at the beginning of his administration, Jefferson faced open contempt by many officers and appointed officials in the Army establishment. The constitutionally elected president undertook to “Republicanize” the Army to ensure its loyalty to future elected administrations. The military academy was central to his long term purpose consistent with his devotion to education. But Jefferson also immediately replaced Federalists in government, eliminated offices by legislation and insisted that new appointments went to the Republican faithful.<Crackel, Theodore J., in McDonald, Robert ed. 2004 p.100> This was consistent with Jefferson’s mature “contextualist” interpretation of the Constitution in which he allowed broad interpretation for the federal government in nationalistic spheres but still insisted on strictly enumerated powers when they were shared with the states.<Mayer, David N. in McDonald, ed. 2004 p.55> Subsequently from 1802-1833, West Point alumni in uniform and as civilian leaders furnished nationalist administrative and executive leadership in the frontier territories.<Watson, Samuel J. in McDonald, Robert ed. 2004 p.155>
TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 12:43, 21 December 2015 (UTC) TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 12:45, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
@ Alanscottwalker: You again show your failure to grasp the context of the time period when you conflate active duty military officers on the frontier and USMA academy alumni in territorial leadership positions with “future Army administrators came from West Point”. You misrepresent me again, that is not what I wrote. I doubt this misstatement of the passage is perfidy, I suppose it mere carelessness in unthinking opposition, as you have no advanced no substantial reasons for opposition, but persist in accusing me of original research when I have faithfully reported reliable sources with properly referenced citations.
You failed to properly read the citation on page 100 which is a positive declarative assertion on the part of Crackle. Instead you have set up a straw man supposing my proposed passage “appears to come from” another page, instead of taking me at my word to read page 100, another unfounded personal attack by misdirection. I'm not "attributing ideas in the text". At [6] the chapters in the Table of Contents (scroll down) are linked alongside each article's page number, you can see the Crackle article beginning on page 99. On page 66, Mayer notes that Crackle “persuasively” argues on the basis of evidentiary factual scholarship, "the military academy provided an opportunity to ‘republicanize' the army under the command of the Republican administrations", -- a paraphrase of the Crackle section I wrote as "The constitutionally elected president undertook to “Republicanize” the Army to ensure its loyalty to future elected administrations.” I am paraphrasing Crackle, not Mayer’s opinion on Crackle. Pray, just for the literary exercise of it, in a spirit of collaboration, provide a concise example of your own composition covering the same material --- three paragraphs from page 100 -- so that I might learn from your example.
The paraphrase as now written is simpler than the original proposal, and no elaborate groundwork of comparative intellectual history is required for understanding the passage such as you suppose in a reductio ad absurdum. Jefferson believed that "This" "republicanizing" the Army on several fronts at the same time was justified in the Constitution, including creation of the USMA by Congressional appointment, not national appointments by scholarly merit. “Contextualist” interpretation of the Constitution is adequately explained in the proposed passage as, "broad interpretation for the federal government in nationalistic spheres but still insisting on strictly enumerated powers when they were shared with the states.” Jefferson acted in his presidential administration as a nationalist at the Louisiana Purchase, Embargo Act and establishing the USMA during his administration. That is not OR on my part, that is faithful reporting of scholarship published by the UVA Press.
You persist in disputing the scholarship in a UVA Press publication, supposing that Wikipedia "should not state opinions as fact", then saying you don’t dispute the scholarship of Crackle, which you in turn suppose is mere third-party opinion on the part of Mayer. Such self-contradiction is not bad intent, --- making distinctions between historical narrative and historiographic commentary may require some graduate level training in history --- unless you persist in it after your mistake is pointed out to you with reliable sources, internet links, and clear instructions for free access to the cited passage online without a subscription. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 17:26, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Duty, Honor, Country: A History of West Point, Stephen E. Ambrose, 1966 -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 20:24, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
I did not remember
HoppyH inserted "and was a British subject at birth" two weeks ago, where it stood until
I removed it yesterday.
Upon reflection, I offer a new proposal:
Thomas Jefferson was born on April 13, 1743 (April 2, 1743 OS), at the family home in Shadwell in the Colony of Virginia, the third of ten children. [1] He was of English and possibly Welsh descent and was born a British subject. [2] His father, Peter Jefferson, was a planter and surveyor who died when Jefferson was fourteen; his mother was Jane Randolph. [a] In 1745, the Jeffersons moved to Tuckahoe Plantation upon the death of a friend of Peter's who had named him guardian of his children. They returned to Shadwell in 1752, where Peter died in 1757; his estate was divided between his two sons, young Thomas and Randolph. [4] Thomas inherited approximately 5,000 acres (2,000 ha; 7.8 sq mi) of land, including Monticello, and between 20 and 40 slaves, assuming full authority over his property at age 21. [5]
The paragraph needs a rewrite anyway. But my main thought is that although several of us think it's beyond obvious that TJ was born a British subject, it seems to be news for a couple of editors. Those of us who take it as a given may fail to realize that many readers may not be able to do 2 + 2 = 4. What is obvious to some of us is not necessarily obvious to everyone. If adults who have been working on this article for several years didn't realize it, maybe general readers won't realize it either.
YoPienso (
talk) 08:06, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
Indians in the 13 colonies were not British subjects but they were in Canada under the Quebec Act 1774 and today retain the right to live in the U.S. Jefferson's slaves were British subjects provided they were born in British territory under the jurisdiction of the Crown, although as slaves they had no rights. Adams, Jefferson and Washington were all British subjects. None of them emulated British aristocracy. They were considered gentlemen and the U.S. retains some of the formality (the president's wife for example is called the "First Lady".) Whether or not any of this is noteworthy, it belongs in an article about British nationality rather than in each and every article about Americans born in the 18th century. TFD ( talk) 07:55, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Rjensen (
talk) 12:38, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Rjensen, Novaglus made similar arguments. But notice Jefferson did not call himself a British subject, but a subject of the King in America (an "American subject"). He rejects the authority of the British parliament and presumably the privy council. Yet the common understanding of British subjects is that they owe allegiance to the King-in-Parliament and in-Council and that colonial administrations are subordinate municipalities. Parliament continued to legislate for Canada, Australia and New Zealand until the 1980s. Does Jefferson say he has the same nationality as people in England or (and he uses the example of Saxons coming to Britain) a different nationality albeit with the same king? Blackstone said that when Englishmen settled in terra nullius they remained subject to parliament. But Jefferson (and Adams) reject that.
Certainly colonists born in Germany (except Hanover) were not British subjects but similarly aliens in the U.S today are not citizens either.
TFD ( talk) 18:00, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Legally he was a British subject until bilateral cession of his allegiance to the King and being under the King's protection, which happened in 1783. There are many naturalized Americans today who are still nationals of their lands of birth even if they have unilaterally renounced their original citizenship. TFD ( talk) 00:33, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
There is nothing in the 1783 Treaty about acknowledging independence in 1776. In fact loyalists who remained in the colonies throughout the war remained British subjects under both U.S. and UK law provided they moved to British territory following the peace. Loyalist emancipated slaves remained British subjects (there were no Canadian citizens until 1947). Only parliament could naturalize aliens. While slaves were property, they also had the King's protection. As pointed out in Making Foreigners, p. 39, slaves should have been considered subjects. [7] As nationality was not based on statute, it was up to local officials how to interpret this. But it is moot - slaves owed allegiance to the Crown, so did Jefferson and aliens (while in the colonies.) TFD ( talk) 07:00, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
No one was ever subject (in law) to Cromwell. The Virginia Charter refers to the principals of the company - they were all English subjects even before they went beyond the beyond the four seas. But no one questions whether Jefferson was a British subject, merely whether it is relevant. The PMs of the UK, Canada, Australia, NZ and possibly the president of the U.S. were all born British subjects, but there is no reason to add that to their biographies. TFD ( talk) 07:19, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
There was an oath of allegiance to the Commonwealth (see: Engagement controversy and from 14 Sept 1654 to the Lord Protector and the Commonwealth. [8] But that was nullified during the Restoration. I do not know what effect that would have had on nationality law at the time, but it was of no relevance when Jefferson was born. TFD ( talk) 21:31, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
(I do not know why you are bringing up naturalization.) Your sources say the King acknowledged the independence of each and every state, and the also states remained sovereign and independent under the Articles of Confederation. It appears that each state had its own nationality, hence no U.S. nationality. The United States had no executive or judiciary, or the ability to legislate - three branches that seem to define government today. Do you know if any of Jefferson's biographers discuss the issue? TFD ( talk) 23:26, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
The religion section would do well to include a couple of revealing items regarding Jefferson, Jesus and religion. Below are two quotes from Jefferson regarding Jesus. The section should list at least one of these quotes -- along with the content listed below them, which points to Jefferson's leanings where religion was concerned. Jefferson also attended church on a regular basis throughout his life. These prove to be major points where Jefferson and religion are concerned, imo.
Following @ Gwillhickers and Cmguy777: in search of a consensus, I added two citations to Gwhillhickers previous two and two, so the entire section would now read as follows:
Jefferson was influenced by deism,[236] although he generally referred to himself as a Christian. He abandoned "orthodox" Christianity after his review of New Testament teachings.[237] Nevertheless, in 1803 he asserted, “I am Christian, in the only sense in which [Jesus] wished any one to be." [1] Jefferson praised the morality of Jesus and edited a compilation of his biblical teachings, omitting miraculous or supernatural references. He titled the work, The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, commonly known today as the Jefferson Bible.[238] Jefferson was a governing member of his local Episcopal Church, which he attended with his daughters.[239]
He donated to the American Bible Society, saying that the four evangelists delivered a “pure and sublime system of morality” to mankind. He thought Americans would rationally create “Apiarian” religion, extracting the best traditions of every denomination. [2] And he contributed generously to several local denominations nearby Monticello. [3] Acknowledging that organized religion always would be a factor in political life for good or ill, he encouraged the application of reason to questions of faith. He believed in a creator God, an afterlife and the sum of religion as loving God and neighbors. But he also controversially renounced the conventional Christian Trinity, predicting that a “genuine doctrine of only one God” would be generally adopted within a generation. [4]
Jefferson was firmly anticlerical, writing that in "every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon."[241] In 1777, he drafted the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. The Act was ratified in 1786, making it unlawful to compel men to attend or donate money to any state sanctioned religious establishment and declaring that men "shall be free to profess ... their opinions in matters of religion."[242] He once supported banning clergy from public office but later relented.[243] Early in 1802 Jefferson reiterated his agreement with the Danbury Connecticut Baptist Association, “that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man and his God”. He interpreted the First Amendment as having built “a wall of separation between Church and State.” [5]
Jefferson's unorthodox religious beliefs became an important issue in the 1800 presidential contest. Opponents attacked him as an atheist and infidel; Wood described it as "the most damaging charge [Jefferson's] opponents ever made against him".[244] Federalists prophesied that Jefferson’s election would call down God’s vengeance on the United States, New Englanders were warned he would confiscate Bibles, the choice was between “a religious president or … Jefferson and no God.” [6] As president, Jefferson countered the accusations by praising religion in his inaugural address and attending services at the Capitol.[244]
TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 14:18, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
I think this adds too much detail, which is best left in a separate article. There are so many aspects to Jefferson, that we cannot provide a great deal of extensive detail. Also, the suggested additions change the weight to suggest that Jefferson may have been more religious than generally believed. If there is evidence that some informed sources believe that, then we should add it. Saying that he went to church a lot implies he was religious without overtly saying so. TFD ( talk) 17:48, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
@ The Four Deuces: Gwillhickers point is that the passage does not yet have the length of lesser elements in the Jefferson biography given the relative weight of modern historiography. @ Cmguy777: The passage does not relate the career of an evangelist such as Billy Graham. So yes, you have proved “There is no record of Jefferson doing any of these things.”, but the passage does not relate any unrecorded details which might suppose evangelical behavior, so there are no grounds for your expressed concern.
Although it is possible to imagine that some do, most atheists do not regularly attend church with their families, give to multiple denominations and underwrite Bible societies. There is still some confusion among editors here; Jefferson believed in one creator God, and professed himself a Christian, “in the only sense in which [Jesus] wished one to be.” And tolerant, eclectic, rational denominations based on the actual teachings of Jesus of Nazareth would contribute to good society in the republic.
Now are we to put Jefferson on trial, whether he was a “true” Christian by editor consensus based on slave holding? Meacham, a reliable source, says that Jefferson believed that the dictum, love God and one’s neighbor as oneself, was the summary of all good ethical teaching. Meacham does not assert that Jefferson “loved his slaves as he loved himself”, that is outside the scope of the proposed narrative. Let’s stick to reliable sources rather than conjuring tangents out of thin air to begin an unsourced witch hunt.
The point of the rewrite is to communicate a) Jefferson’s understanding of the idiosyncratic Christianity which he adhered to, b) Jefferson’s understanding of the social function of religion in a republic as a public good, and c) opponent’s use of Jefferson’s denial of a Triune God, which is judged in the literature as “the most damaging charge opponents ever made against him". TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 07:47, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
Let's not overshadow the important facts with selective takes and long winded opinion about what summary style and weight is -- esp since distributing weight consistently has not been observed (not to mention the glaring gaps in the narrative) since the article was nominated for GA.
Jefferson thought a military academy was needed to supply the country with first class officers, engineers and strategists, rather than relying on other countries (outsourcing) for these. The following statements exemplifies the importance Jefferson placed on establishing a national military academy.
... More overlooked items forthcoming. Lede or no lede, Jefferson's involvement and thinking regarding West Point needs to be better covered in the biography. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 23:43, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
I hope this debate can be settled quickly and amicably.
@
TheVirginiaHistorian: Alanscottwalker isn't personally attacking you.
@
Alanscottwalker: I believe you're mistaken about "argument," as
I've explained earlier. The basis of modern historical writing is argument. Other historians agree with Crackel's interpretation.
Onuf.
Onuf. (Same essay, I think, but snippets are elusive.) Onuf's imprimatur is weighty. A lesser scholar,
Langston, says the same. There is no need to identify Crackel's writing as an opinion.
But none of this is even necessary since TVH's proposed draft doesn't fit into the article. What say we drop the proposal and the discussion?
YoPienso (
talk) 20:08, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
clarification and discussion
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(but take exception to Yopienso's argument. I won't repeat why (you have already read it), but note, even your new links to Onuf and Langston explicitly attribute to Crackel, in the text. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 20:30, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
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Pushing to include the Military Peace Establishment Act, Part 1
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Talk page overwhelmingI think at this point we need to start discussing the idea of compromise because the 'discussion' over the last couple of weeks has gone back and forth where accusations and not so friendly talk are now overwhelming the talk page. There needs to be a compromise. I've lost count of the collapsing boxes, i.e.inside other collapsing boxes, now on the page. I have never seen a discussion over such simple items grow to such proportions. We have alienated any newcomers to the discussion with all this long winded and highly opinionated talk. Gwillhickers ( talk) 22:34, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Frankly, I see editors' behavior to be impeding progress on this article, which is ironic, since all of us sincerely want it to be excellent.
Since I cannot help improve the article, it's a waste of my time to continue to try. That's why I said good-bye, Gwillhickers. I wasn't being flip. YoPienso ( talk) 18:48, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Republican maxims of Jefferson's administration"And TVH and CMguy77 are muddying their position rather than clarifying it. First, West Point itself was so important it had to be included. Now, "republicanizing" the army is of prime importance." YoPienso (talk) 5:05 pm, 27 December.
Edit to lede (Notes on the State of Virginia & Declaration)I've been trying to do some copyediting/removing redundancies in the article, but made this edit to the lede and thought I'd bring it to the talk since it lengthens the lede but I believe that the information belongs there. Aside from some reorganizing, this is the key sentences (as I edited):
From:
The first part should be uncontroversial, plenty of sources describe Notes as the most important book published before 1800 and we have the sources to back it up. The second part, describing the preamble to the Declaration, does significantly expand the lede but I think — while describing him as a "skilled writer" — the cultural relevance of the Declaration of Independence is a top-line item that most readers would want to read on-the-top, so to speak. Dcpoliticaljunkie ( talk) 15:51, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
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