![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 25 | ← | Archive 29 | Archive 30 | Archive 31 | Archive 32 | Archive 33 | → | Archive 35 |
{{
User:ClueBot III/ArchiveNow}}
Below is a list of historians, professors and org's who clearly do not go along with the TJ paternity opinion.
Dr. W. M. Wallenborn, former research committee member at Thomas Jefferson Foundation
Herbert Barger, Jefferson Family Historian at Norwich University
Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society
Dr. Harvey C. Mansfield, Harvard University
Dr. David N. Mayer Professor of Law and History, Capital University
Dr. Robert F. Turner (Chairman), Professor, University of Virginia
Dr. Paul Rahe, Professor of History, University of Tulsa
Dr. Forrest McDonald, Distinguished Research Professor of History, Emeritus, University of Alabama
Dr. Alf J. Mapp, Jr., Eminent Scholar, Emeritus, Professor of History, Old Dominion University
Dr. Robert H. Ferrell, Distinguished Professor of History, Emeritus Indiana University
Dr. Lance Banning, Professor of History, University of Kentucky
Dr. Charles R. Kesler, Professor of Government, Claremont McKenna College, author of American History
Eliot Marshall, author/historian
Dr. Walter E. Williams, George Mason University
Dr. Jean Yarbrough, Professor of Political Science, Bowdoin College
NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF SCHOLARS: Scholars Challenge Jefferson-Hemings Allegations
J. Patrick Mullins, Ph.D, University of Kerntucky
Dr. Thomas Traut, University of North Carolina
Dr. James Ceaser, University of Virginia
Monticello Association,
Url2
William G. Hyland, author of 'In Defense of Thomas Jefferson:The Sally Hemings Sex Scandal' and 'A Civil Action: Sally Hemings v. Thomas Jefferson'
Eyler Robert Coates, Sr., author of The Jefferson-Hemings Myth,
Section Head (Supervisor), DBPH, Library of Congress (1974-78)
Dr. James P. Lucier, historian, journalist, foreign policy specialist, appointed as 'Scholar' in the Congressional Reading Room, Library of Congress,
served on the U.S. Senate staff for 25 years.
[http://www.amazon.com/Jefferson-Vindicated-Fallacies-Contradictions-Genealogical/dp/0976777509/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1224109610&sr=8-1 Cynthia H. Burton, author, Jefferson Vindicated - Fallacies, Omissions, and Contradictions in the Hemings Genealogical Search, 2005]
[http://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Scandal-Thomas-Jefferson-Sally/dp/1572493038/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1224109620&sr=8-1 Rebecca L. McMurry, James F., Jr. McMurry, authors of Anatomy of a Scandal: Thomas Jefferson & the Sally Story , 2002]
As I once said back in April 2012 this is not a 'challenge' to remove the statement 'most historians'. I just wanted to point out, that these people, given their prominent backgrounds, shed considerable doubt on the claim of "most historians" and any claims of "fringe" used to sweep other views under the rug. --
Gwillhickers
17:51, 2 October 2013 (UTC))
The idea of "most historians" is indeed a claim and it should be presented as a claim. The section should say,
We can't pass this off as a fact, not in the face of overwhelming evidence that says otherwise. There are plenty examples where commentary has been added to the effect that it reads, Historian Smith says 'this' and Professor Jones says 'that'. The "most historians" claim should be treated no differently. -- Gwillhickers 21:26, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
ASW, there are indeed sources that make the claim about "most historians" as you've pointed out and I never said there were none that did. As such we get to say this on the page, as we have already, but as I maintained, we should at least state that this is a claim, not an established fact, as no one has established it, again, not even qualified with an explanation, let alone factual proof. It is a claim made with no footnotes or reference to any bibliography on the online pages these claims are made. It should be treated like any other commentary that has even been made on the Jefferson page. e.g. Finkelman says...etc. Also, no other topic in the lede is treated with opinionated commentary, so any commentary there needs to go. I believe that is fair and objective given the controversy and biases associated with this topic. -- Gwillhickers 01:59, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
Either we present a balanced commentary in the lede or we should remove all commentary, esp since no other topics are treated with commentary. Simply because some high visibility websites have claimed "most historians" does not mean there is no appreciable number of others who don't agree. If there was not an appreciable number and they were all fly by night sources, there would be no controversy. There is one and it needs to be presented fairly. These attempts to skew and hide this reality are beneath anyone who tries to author a history article, which should be objective, balanced and neutral. Also, if there is no controversy, then the topic needs to be removed from the lede completely, as that was the reason for its inclusion when it was first debated back in 2011. -- Gwillhickers 19:01, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
Evidently there's much you haven't seen. As I said, this talk page is not the place to be educating the uninfomred, but you have insisted:
Dr. Foster, H. Barger, Dr. Wallenborn along with the many other prominent historians and professors deserve fair representation in the lede and in the section. They are not an inconsequential, or a "fringe" group by any means, esp since Foster, Barger, Wallenborn and others were at the center of the controversy from the time DNA evidence was misrepresented. Their accounts are represented in the mainstream which is largely why the issue is controversial. If their accounts were only published by some fly by night news rag, etc, there would be no national controversy among historians and professors.
Since this has been well discussed now and there are more than enough reliable sources, we also need to mention that bias has played a major role among those who have misrepresented the evidence from the start and who have "concluded" that Jefferson was not only the father of one, but all of Hemings' children. We also have more than enough sources to mention in the lede that there are other points of view among a good number of historians. This is not Stalinist Russia guys. We need to make the article fair, balanced and objective. The website sources that say "most historians" allows us to say that, but that's it. It is not grounds to be ignoring the many other accounts as something that is inconsequential. If you maintain all of these people, Dr. Foster, Dr. Wallenberg, Barger, professors at Harvard, Virginia, et al, are of no consequence, which is absurd, then there is no controversy and we remove it from the lede. Btw, there is indeed a controversy, it should have mention, fair mention, in the lede and my advice to you would be to educate yourself on matters before you take part in a debate you evidently know little about. This debate is getting old, has been attempted before several times and has failed each time for the same reasons outlined now. Past participates that share these views are not present at this particular time no doubt because they're tired of repeating the same points over and again. -- Gwillhickers 00:28, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
You keep ignoring several items. One, that opposing views are indeed prominent and covered in mainstream secondary sources as was pointed out several times now, and two, WP policy says, Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints. The opposing views are indeed significant and is why there is a controversy. There is also a quote from Jimbo Wales in that same section which says If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents. (emphasis added) This was done, quite easily. The opposing views are indeed held by a significant minority, as is evidenced by numerous and established historians and professors from numerous major universities and people central to the controversy, like Dr. Eugene Foster, etc. Commentary should be limited to the section and differing views be given fair representation. Such details do not belong in the lede and not be given the same weight as the established historical facts, like the DOI, Louisiana Purchase and slavery. -- Gwillhickers 23:15, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
I disagree. WP isn't interested in the consensus of institutions A, B, and C, but in the overall consensus of the academy--the leading scholars of history. They are not necessarily correct, but they are the arbiters of mainstream thought. Francis D. Cogliano presents an excellent historiography on the Jefferson-Hemings controversy on pp. 170-198 of
Thomas Jefferson: Reputation and Legacy. The online format has two large gaps; any person in the U.S. can readily find the book at their local library or ask there for an inter-library loan. A careful reading of Chap.6 of that book should end this debate.
Half of p. 183 is given to David N. Mayer's defense of TJ, summed up by a short quote from John Works: "Defending Thomas Jefferson, therefore, has come to mean defending what America means, and we feel compelled to rise to that defense." Cogliano immediately follows with, "Among scholars, this defense has been ineffective." Both Mayer and Works are members of the TJHS, which Cogliano tells about on pp. 180-183. Wrt their report, he writes on p. 181 that "it shows that the work of the TJHS, while cloaked in scholarly objectivity, promotes an explicit political agenda." Cogliano concludes on p. 191,"Now that most scholars accept the Jefferson-Hemings relationship as a fact it will be necessary to re-evaluate Thomas Jefferson's life and character . . ." [emphasis added]
This is who Cogliano is. Yopienso ( talk) 11:11, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
Actually the recent round of edits and debate started here when you reverted an edit that added balance to the Hemings presentation in the lede as the page had recently. (This is not to see it's all your fault.) The page was stable when it reflected both significant views in the lede. As I've always said, it's not my wish to remove most historians, only to give fair representation to the significant views as the lede did one before, and as you also added to the lede. I would like to remove the commentary from the lede and treat the Hemings topic no differently than the others, but if we must keep commentary there it should reflect both significant views. Don't think that compromise is unreasonable. -- Gwillhickers 19:06, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
William G. Hyland, Jr. claimed on p. 166 of In Defense of Thomas Jefferson: The Sally Hemings Sex Scandal that S.F. Wetmore coached Hemings. I am merely reporting this, not supporting or attacking Hyland or his claim. I do not think it should appear in this article, but could be appropriate to Thomas Jefferson and Slavery. Yopienso ( talk) 17:14, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
Wait, help. Lacy K. Ford says Jefferson’s was consistently anti-slavery, not increasingly anti-slavery after 1784 in his private, not public opposition. His opposition did not decline despite repeated frustration in the political arena? That is remarkable consistency, not hypocracy.
But, some of Jefferson’s recent biographers have questioned TJ’s moral stance as complex and contradictory? Could this mean the biographers simply deny the legitimacy of Jefferson’s nationalism, which took 'slavery policy' as a means to a larger end – continued national unity and therefore perpetuating U.S. independence in a world of competing empires north (English), west (French/Spanish) and south (Spanish/English) and east at sea (British/French)? TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 21:44, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
Binks, you need a cite to source southern threats at secession (end continental nationalism in the U.S. of the Jefferson-Adams sort) over slavery were developed by 1810? I introduce my students to the idea by a scene from the movie 1776, cut or uncut version, where Pinkney sings, “Molassas to rum to slaves”, and the ‘whole south’ walks out of the Continental Congress debating independence – in 1776.
That sentiment does not evaporate with the 1783 Treaty of Paris. The South, or more properly, elements of it, assume a minority stance of “rule or ruin” the United States, leveraging slave-power, then the race card. I would re-read LSUs ‘History of the South’ in eight volumes for you, but I’m on another project. For the latest iteration, see the threatened default of U.S. good faith and credit over the last two months, merely a continuation of ‘rule or ruin’ mindset.
Jefferson had to trim expressions on slavery for his political base in the short run, and let the evolving superiority of free soil build majority over time in the nation, allowing the working of democracy and majority rule to find a solution to the issue of slavery. Which in one sense the 'rule or ruin' fire-eaters forced on the nation in a civil war, --- where --- God may not have been on either side as Lincoln observed in his Second Inaugural, --- but it was certainly --- Napoleon's 'God is on the side of the biggest battalions', for the good of all, slave and free, that all would be free. A sentiment shared by Jefferson and Lincoln, although both were at times manifestly ambivalent about how to go about it in the real world of American politics and majority elections. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 07:08, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
All editors are invited to comment at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Proposed topic ban for Gwillhickers on Thomas Jefferson and also slavery, as it is relevant to this article. Binksternet ( talk) 03:36, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
Though Brad's last edit was thought provoking, per Jackson, et al, it was of course not appropriate for the lede as I'm sure he knows ("har de har"). Yopienso's last edit seems appropriate, that Jefferson "expressed" opposition to slavery and leaves the door open to interpretation. -- Gwillhickers 20:37, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Naturally the Hemings section has grown all over again after several attempts in the past to chop it. Little is included in the article on TJ's post-presidency and several other areas. How much can we add to this article before it becomes 10 lbs of feces in a 5 lb box? How long will slavery and Hemings remain more important than anything TJ ever did in life? Brad ( talk) 14:36, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
A slave owner himself, Jefferson wrote that he believed slavery was harmful to both slave and master.[194] His views on the institution of slavery and African slaves, however, are complex; historians are divided on whether he truly opposed it. He had inherited slaves from both his father, Peter, and his wife's father, John Wayles. Over the course of his life, he owned some 600 slaves,[213] buying and selling them as necessary to pay his bill and maintain some 130 at any one time to work at Monticello.
Although he hoped to see the end of slavery,[201][206] Jefferson did not wish to challenge the Virginia culture that relied on slave labor to cultivate tobacco and grain.[207] During his lawyer years, he took on cases involving slavery and on one occasion refused to defend an overseer who whipped a slave to death. He drafted the Virginia law of 1778 prohibiting the importation of slaves. In the mid-1770s he drafted and proposed a plan of gradual emancipation whereby all slaves born after a certain date would be freed. Expansion of slavery was to be limited to only descendants of female slaves until the age of 25, after which they would become free. That bill was not passed. In 1807, Jefferson signed into law a bill prohibiting the transatlantic slave trade beginning on the first day of 1808, the earliest date permitted by the Constitution.
In his initial draft of the Declaration of Independence, Jefferson denounced the British government's role in the international slave trade[note 6][202 ] During the American Revolution, he accepted common racial stereotypes of African Americans and did not take into consideration the plight of slaves. [235] Although he proposed abolishing slavery in all territories to the west after 1800 in his draft of the Land Ordinance of 1784, that provision was stricken by Congress. It did influence Congress to prohibit slavery in the Northwest Ordinance of 1787. The 1803 Louisiana Purchase was a great achievement of the Jefferson administration, but the President was criticized for having allowed slavery to continue in the newly acquired vast territory.
Jefferson opposed the Missouri Compromise of 1820, which established a geographical dividing line among the states, believing that such a division and attempt to limit slavery would lead to war.[215] He expressed this concern in an April 22 letter to John Holmes, worried that such a division among the states would eventually lead to the destruction of the Union.
In his “Notes on the State of Virginia,” (1785) Jefferson expressed a "strong suspicion" that the Negro “was inferior to whites in both the endowments of body and mind.”[234][234] His solution for the slavery dilemma was to transport blacks to Africa where they could set up a free and independent black nation, leaving the United States as a white society. [end]
Alt.: The 1803 Louisiana Purchase was a great achievement of the Jefferson administration, complicated by the establishment of pre-existing French slaveholders from modern Illinois to Missouri to Louisiana. Faced with the option to confiscate the slaves of French nationals, Jefferson chose to answer English and Spanish objections to the sale by quickly incorporating resident settlers politically into U.S. territories. Jefferson's failure to tamper with preexisting conditions led to criticism for his having allowed slavery to continue in the newly acquired territory, and the adoption of the Code Napoleon in the New Orleans Territory that would become the state of Louisiana. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 15:11, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Something else for a change besides slavery and Hemings! The UVA section can be trimmed and made more relevant to what TJ did for it. The current section reads very suspiciously like a copy/paste either from a website or a UVA brochure although I've never been able to find the source. Brad ( talk) 14:22, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Another bloated section that needs an axe. Currently it takes the reader on a history tour of the Barbary States with way too much that is irrelevant to TJ. Overall the FBW was not a big part of TJ's presidency and it should be treated as such. Historians give little attention to this conflict relating to TJ. Eliminate the entire section and summarize elsewhere with a short description. Brad ( talk) 20:30, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Also doesn't warrant a section. Cosway and her relationship with TJ can be summed up in Minister to Paris. Brad ( talk) 21:09, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Here is a suggested consolidation and condensed 'Louisiana Purchase' section. All points are preserved to the best of my ability as I mostly edited for conciseness among existing, Yopienso and myself. Others may remove the actual points made as too detailed for here, better left to the reader to find at Main Article: Louisiana Purchase. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 11:01, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Proposal
In 1803, in the midst of the Napoleonic wars between France and Britain, Thomas Jefferson authorized the Louisiana Purchase, a major land acquisition from France that doubled the size of the United States. Having lost the revenue potential of Haiti while escalating his wars against the rest of Europe, Napoleon gave up on an empire in North America and used the purchase money to help finance France's war campaign on its home front.[100][99]
Jefferson had sent James Monroe and Robert R. Livingston to Paris in 1802 to try to buy the city of New Orleans and adjacent coastal areas, with the assistance of French nobleman, Pierre Samuel du Pont de Nemours. Napoleon offered to sell the entire Territory for a price of $15 million, which Treasury Secretary Albert Gallatin financed easily. The purchase was without explicit Constitutional authority, but most contemporaries thought that this opportunity was exceptional and could not be missed.[102] The Purchase proved to be one of the largest fertile tracts of land on the planet, and it marked the end of French imperial ambitions in North America which were potentially in conflict with American expansion west.[103]
Some historians, such as Ron Chernow note Jefferson’s inconsistency, “Jefferson, the strict constructionist, committed a breathtaking act of executive power that far exceeded anything anticipated in the Constitution.”[104] Other historians dispute this with the following reasoning: Countries change their borders by conquest, or by treaty. The Constitution specifically grants the president the power to negotiate treaties (Art. II, Sec. 2), and Jefferson’s secretary of state, James Madison gave assurances that the Purchase was well within even the strictest interpretation of the Constitution. The Senate quickly ratified the treaty, and the House, immediately authorized funding.[105][106][107][108] On December 20, 1803 the French flag was lowered in New Orleans and the U.S. flag raised, symbolizing the transfer of the Louisiana territory from France to the United States.[109][110]
Historians differ in their assessments as to who was the principal player in the purchase; among Napoleon, Jefferson, his secretary of state James Madison, and his negotiator James Monroe.[111] The historian George Herring noted the Purchase "is often and rightly regarded as a diplomatic windfall—the result of accident, luck, and the whim of Napoleon Bonaparte."[113] Though France was removed as a threat to the United States, Jefferson refused to recognize the new republic of Haiti, the second in the Western Hemisphere, and imposed an arms and trade embargo against it.[101] The entire territory was not finally secured until England and Mexico gave up their claims to northern and southern portions, respectively, during the presidency of James Polk (1845–1849).
While the 1803 Louisiana Purchase was a great achievement of the Jefferson administration, domestically it was complicated by the establishment of pre-existing French slaveholders from modern Illinois to Missouri to Louisiana. Faced with the option to confiscate the slaves of French nationals, Jefferson chose to answer English and Spanish objections to the sale by quickly incorporating resident settlers politically into U.S. territories. Jefferson's failure to tamper with preexisting conditions led to criticism for his having allowed slavery to continue in the newly acquired territory, and the adoption of the Code Napoleon in the New Orleans Territory that would become the state of Louisiana.
[End proposal] TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 11:01, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
In 1803, in the midst of the Napoleonic wars between France and Britain, Thomas Jefferson authorized the Louisiana Purchase, a major land acquisition from France that doubled the size of the United States. Having lost the revenue potential of Haiti while escalating his wars against the rest of Europe, Napoleon gave up on an empire in North America and used the purchase money to help finance France's war campaign on its home front.[100][99]
Jefferson had sent James Monroe and Robert R. Livingston to Paris in 1802 to try to buy the city of New Orleans and adjacent coastal areas, with the assistance of French nobleman, Pierre Samuel du Pont de Nemours a friend and close ally of Jefferson. Napoleon offered to sell the entire Territory for a price of $15 million, which Treasury Secretary Albert Gallatin financed easily. The purchase was without explicit Constitutional authority, but most contemporaries thought that this opportunity was exceptional and could not be missed.[102] In the face of criticism from some of Jefferson's other contemporaries James Madison gave his assurances that the Purchase was well within even the strictest interpretation of the Constitution. The Senate quickly ratified the treaty, and the House, immediately authorized funding.[105][106][107][108] The Purchase proved to be one of the largest fertile tracts of land on the planet, and it marked the end of French imperial ambitions in North America which were potentially in conflict with American expansion west.[103]
On December 20, 1803 the French flag was lowered in New Orleans and the U.S. flag raised, symbolizing the transfer of the Louisiana territory from France to the United States.[109][110] while France was removed as a threat to the United States. [101] The entire territory was not finally secured until England and Mexico gave up their claims to northern and southern portions, respectively, during the presidency of James Polk (1845–1849).
While the 1803 Louisiana Purchase was a great achievement of the Jefferson administration, domestically it was complicated by the establishment of pre-existing French slaveholders from modern Illinois to Missouri to Louisiana. Faced with the option to confiscate the slaves of French nationals, Jefferson chose to answer English and Spanish objections to the sale by quickly incorporating resident settlers politically into U.S. territories. Jefferson's failure to tamper with preexisting conditions led to criticism for his having allowed slavery to continue in the newly acquired territory, and the adoption of the Code Napoleon in the New Orleans Territory that would become the state of Louisiana. Since the purchase historians have differed in their assessments regarding constitutional and slavery issues.
I've boldly gone ahead with my proposal, with just a tweak or two. It seemed most editors were fine with it, but somehow the proposal has languished. I regret that I have messed up some citations, and hope some of you retirees will take the time to fix that problem. I do not like the wording of the last paragraph, but cannot take the time to improve it. I think it is important to end on that note, however. Yopienso ( talk) 21:42, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
Let's dismiss the argument that flawed text which has been in dispute for many months is somehow blessed by lasting a long time in the article. Instead, let's look again at what the consensus is for reducing the section on slavery:
It is quite clear that consensus is for reduction. While looking through the archives, I noticed that upon his arrival at the article, Cmguy777 was strongly opposed by Gwillhickers because of differences of opinion over content, but the two editors appeared to slowly realign themselves to work as a team after they found common ground. In August 2012 User:Other Choices observed, "This article has been plagued for many months by a pair of obsessive, opposing POV pushers whose only point of agreement is their shared willingness to add reliably-sourced 'stuff' to the article ad nauseum..." In other words, the section bloat was caused by disputes about content rather than agreement. I think it would be a mistake to say that the slavery section text was optimal in the 12-paragraph version I found earlier this year. It should be reduced per WP:SUMMARY, and the detail brought to the TJ and slavery article. Binksternet ( talk) 17:03, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, Binksternet for the remarkable reduction of text in the 'Slaves and slavery' section while leaving the statement about treatment in tact. I never thought it could be reduced to such proportions but you seemed to have disproven that notion. I still have one reservation regarding treatment. The section says "comparatively well". If the five sources used actually support that wording then we can go ahead and run with it. If not we should change it (back) accordingly. From what I have seen, Jefferson overall treated his slaves exceptionally well. I'll look into it. -- Gwillhickers 19:13, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
We have scaled down both the Slaves' and 'Controversy sections, as was widely agreed upon. Unless either of these sections is missing important content it would seem we need to begin with the task of overall article improvement. The editors who have hovered over these sections, almost forcing the involvement of other editors, while ignoring the rest of the biography, need to give it a rest and stop rehashing the same old failed arguments. -- Gwillhickers 19:33, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
Just restored a statement that was removed July 10, i.e.banning of international slaved trade, considered one of Jefferson's biggest achievements. Also removed citations from the lede, as topics are cited in body of text. This convention is fairly common. -- Gwillhickers 00:37, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
Begin proposal. All notes and links are preserved, edited for conciseness. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 08:04, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
Jefferson's popularity suffered in his second term because the problems related to wars in Europe. Relations with Great Britain had always been bad, due partly to the violent personal antipathy between Jefferson and the British Ambassador, Anthony Merry. After Napoleon's decisive victory at the Battle of Austerlitz in 1805, Napoleon became much more aggressive in his negotiations over trading and neutrality rights, and American efforts failed. Jefferson responded with the Embargo Act of 1807, directed at both France and Great Britain. This triggered economic chaos in the US and strong criticism at the time, resulting in Jefferson's abandoning the policy within a year.[117]
Domestic politics were embroiled in controversy related to international affairs. Jefferson invoked the Alien and Sedition Acts to counter Federalist attacks, particularly those by Alexander Hamilton.[118] In 1807, Jefferson ordered his former vice president Aaron Burr tried for treason. Burr was charged with conspiring to levy war against the United States in an attempt to establish a separate confederacy composed of the Western states and territories, but he was acquitted.[119][120]
Following the Revolution all the states abolished the international slave trade, but South Carolina had reopened it. The Constitution of 1787 had protected the trade for only the first two decades of the nation’s history, so on his annual message of December 1806, Jefferson denounced the "violations of human rights" attending the international slave trade and he called on the newly elected Congress to criminalize it on the first day possible.[121] Congress passed the Act Prohibiting Importation of Slaves, effective January 1, 1808.[122][123] While the act established severe punishment against the international trade, it did not regulate the domestic slave trade.
End proposal. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 08:04, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
Agree with Gwillhickers that reelection needs first paragraph treatment. Louisiana Purchase 1803 is in the first term, not the second beginning March 1805. Banning slave trade, first proposed December 1806 after second term mid-term elections, was the way early republicans and federalists believed slavery could end without further government interference in the states such as SC, before the impact of the cotton gin in the Old Southwest (TN, AL, MS). It is not chronological to denigrate an achievement in January 1808 which did not foresee the 1830s cotton South. More later. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 09:45, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Existing paragraph reads Due to political attacks against Jefferson, in particular those by Alexander Hamilton and his supporters, he used the Alien and Sedition Acts to counter some of these political adversaries.[119]
It was my understanding that the Alien and Sedition Acts lapsed in Jefferson's first term and were not re-inacted. Meacham says on p. 409, that in Jefferson's second inaugural, he criticized "the artillery of the press" with "licentiousness". But, Meacham says, "The marketplace, however, should decide. Censorship should be in the hands of the people." --
Is the quoted paragraph here in the article in error? Or do I misunderstand "counter"? TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 18:33, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Hi All
I am new to this talk page, so please excuse me if I am rehashing old discussions.
The page on TJ says that he was a big supporter of democracy. This should read 'democratic replublicanism.' The founders were opposed to majority rules which is why they passed the bill of rights.
DRGetchell ( talk) 19:25, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
The following summary is from the Meacham chapters on Jefferson's second term. It includes treating Spain, Quids, Burr, USS Chesapeake war fever, Embargo to election of Madison. Not sure how to shuffle existing separate sections on Burr and Embargo...
Year sub-sections are administratively provided only for ease in making editing comments. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 20:20, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
In 1805 tensions with Spain held center stage, revolving around the exact boundaries of the Louisiana Territory, negotiations over the Floridas, and outstanding financial claims. A mission of James Monroe to Spain failed, and Spain allied with France led some in the administration to speculate over action against Spanish outposts explored by Zebulon Pike, or even an alliance with England. Jefferson sought to maintain neutrality, strengthening harbor defenses, building coastal gun boats and preparing militias for possible deployment at key points such as New Orleans.<ref>Meacham, Jon. “Thomas Jefferson: the art of power” 2012 Random House ISBN 978-1-4000-6766-4, p.412-413</ref>
The domestic political split in Jefferson’s own party came from fellow Virginian John Randolph of Roanoke in March 1806. Jefferson and Madison backed resolutions to limit or ban British imports in retaliation for British depredations against American shipping. Jefferson’s Secretary of Treasury proposed spending $20 million in roads and canals in infrastructure, leading to the National Road west from Maryland. Randolph held that Jefferson had gone too far in a Federalist direction, building a congressional caucus of “ Quids”, Latin tertium quid, “a third something”, calling for a purity in republican principles and roundly denouncing both Jefferson and Madison.<ref>Meacham, Jon. “Thomas Jefferson: the art of power” 2012 Random House ISBN 978-1-4000-6766-4, p.415-417</ref>
After Aaron Burr was disgraced in the duel of 1804, he was reported by the British Ambassador as wanting to “effect a separation of the western part of the United States [from the Appalachian Mountains]”. Jefferson believed that to be so by November 1806 because Burr had been rumored to be variously plotting with some western states to secede for an independent empire, or to raise a filibuster conquer Mexico. At the very least, there were reports of Burr’s recruiting men, stocking arms and building boats. New Orleans seemed especially vulnerable, but at some point the American general there, James Wilkinson, a double agent for the Spanish, decided to turn on Burr. Jefferson issued a proclamation warning that there were U.S. citizens illegally plotting to take over Spanish holdings. Though Burr was nationally discredited, Jefferson feared for the very Union. In a report to Congress January 1807, Jefferson declared Burr’s guilt “placed beyond question”. By March 1807 Burr was arrested in New Orleans and placed on trial for treason at Richmond Virginia, Chief Justice John Marshall presiding. The weak government case led to Burr’s acquittal, but Burr was never able to mount another adventure.<ref>Meacham, Jon. “Thomas Jefferson: the art of power” 2012 Random House ISBN 978-1-4000-6766-4, p.405, 419-422.</ref>
Jefferson tried to prepare for war following the HMS Leopard attack on the USS Chesapeake off the Virginia coast. He issued a proclamation banning armed British ships from entering U.S. waters. He called on the governors of the states to have quotas for a total of 100,000 militia, and he ordered purchase of arms, ammunition and supplies. The orders went out unilaterally, without prior Congressional approval. Said the former Virginia governor who had fled Tarlton without calling out Virginia militia, “The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation [than strict observance of written laws]. The USS Revenge sent to receive an answer from the British government was itself fired upon, including its passenger, Vice President George Clinton. July 31 1807 Jefferson called for a special session of Congress in October.<ref>Meacham, Jon. “Thomas Jefferson: the art of power” 2012 Random House ISBN 978-1-4000-6766-4, p.425-429</ref>
In December news arrived of Napoleon extending the Berlin Decree banning British imports everywhere, including the U.S. George III ordered redoubling efforts at impressment. But war fever of the summer had faded, Congress was in not in a mood to prepare the U.S. for war. Jefferson asked for and received the Embargo Act, the least bad option to war or doing nothing, but gaining time for defensive works, and building up militias and naval forces. Legislation passed December 1807, a projection of power and enforcement which historian Jon Meacham called surpassing even the hated Alien and Sedition Acts. But domestic economic consequences and widespread negative reaction caused an end to the embargo in time for Jefferson's Secretary of State James Madison to win the 1808 presidential election.<ref>Meacham, Jon. “Thomas Jefferson: the art of power” 2012 Random House ISBN 978-1-4000-6766-4, p.429-431</ref>
end Meacham sourcing. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 20:20, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 25 | ← | Archive 29 | Archive 30 | Archive 31 | Archive 32 | Archive 33 | → | Archive 35 |
{{
User:ClueBot III/ArchiveNow}}
Below is a list of historians, professors and org's who clearly do not go along with the TJ paternity opinion.
Dr. W. M. Wallenborn, former research committee member at Thomas Jefferson Foundation
Herbert Barger, Jefferson Family Historian at Norwich University
Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society
Dr. Harvey C. Mansfield, Harvard University
Dr. David N. Mayer Professor of Law and History, Capital University
Dr. Robert F. Turner (Chairman), Professor, University of Virginia
Dr. Paul Rahe, Professor of History, University of Tulsa
Dr. Forrest McDonald, Distinguished Research Professor of History, Emeritus, University of Alabama
Dr. Alf J. Mapp, Jr., Eminent Scholar, Emeritus, Professor of History, Old Dominion University
Dr. Robert H. Ferrell, Distinguished Professor of History, Emeritus Indiana University
Dr. Lance Banning, Professor of History, University of Kentucky
Dr. Charles R. Kesler, Professor of Government, Claremont McKenna College, author of American History
Eliot Marshall, author/historian
Dr. Walter E. Williams, George Mason University
Dr. Jean Yarbrough, Professor of Political Science, Bowdoin College
NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF SCHOLARS: Scholars Challenge Jefferson-Hemings Allegations
J. Patrick Mullins, Ph.D, University of Kerntucky
Dr. Thomas Traut, University of North Carolina
Dr. James Ceaser, University of Virginia
Monticello Association,
Url2
William G. Hyland, author of 'In Defense of Thomas Jefferson:The Sally Hemings Sex Scandal' and 'A Civil Action: Sally Hemings v. Thomas Jefferson'
Eyler Robert Coates, Sr., author of The Jefferson-Hemings Myth,
Section Head (Supervisor), DBPH, Library of Congress (1974-78)
Dr. James P. Lucier, historian, journalist, foreign policy specialist, appointed as 'Scholar' in the Congressional Reading Room, Library of Congress,
served on the U.S. Senate staff for 25 years.
[http://www.amazon.com/Jefferson-Vindicated-Fallacies-Contradictions-Genealogical/dp/0976777509/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1224109610&sr=8-1 Cynthia H. Burton, author, Jefferson Vindicated - Fallacies, Omissions, and Contradictions in the Hemings Genealogical Search, 2005]
[http://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Scandal-Thomas-Jefferson-Sally/dp/1572493038/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1224109620&sr=8-1 Rebecca L. McMurry, James F., Jr. McMurry, authors of Anatomy of a Scandal: Thomas Jefferson & the Sally Story , 2002]
As I once said back in April 2012 this is not a 'challenge' to remove the statement 'most historians'. I just wanted to point out, that these people, given their prominent backgrounds, shed considerable doubt on the claim of "most historians" and any claims of "fringe" used to sweep other views under the rug. --
Gwillhickers
17:51, 2 October 2013 (UTC))
The idea of "most historians" is indeed a claim and it should be presented as a claim. The section should say,
We can't pass this off as a fact, not in the face of overwhelming evidence that says otherwise. There are plenty examples where commentary has been added to the effect that it reads, Historian Smith says 'this' and Professor Jones says 'that'. The "most historians" claim should be treated no differently. -- Gwillhickers 21:26, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
ASW, there are indeed sources that make the claim about "most historians" as you've pointed out and I never said there were none that did. As such we get to say this on the page, as we have already, but as I maintained, we should at least state that this is a claim, not an established fact, as no one has established it, again, not even qualified with an explanation, let alone factual proof. It is a claim made with no footnotes or reference to any bibliography on the online pages these claims are made. It should be treated like any other commentary that has even been made on the Jefferson page. e.g. Finkelman says...etc. Also, no other topic in the lede is treated with opinionated commentary, so any commentary there needs to go. I believe that is fair and objective given the controversy and biases associated with this topic. -- Gwillhickers 01:59, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
Either we present a balanced commentary in the lede or we should remove all commentary, esp since no other topics are treated with commentary. Simply because some high visibility websites have claimed "most historians" does not mean there is no appreciable number of others who don't agree. If there was not an appreciable number and they were all fly by night sources, there would be no controversy. There is one and it needs to be presented fairly. These attempts to skew and hide this reality are beneath anyone who tries to author a history article, which should be objective, balanced and neutral. Also, if there is no controversy, then the topic needs to be removed from the lede completely, as that was the reason for its inclusion when it was first debated back in 2011. -- Gwillhickers 19:01, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
Evidently there's much you haven't seen. As I said, this talk page is not the place to be educating the uninfomred, but you have insisted:
Dr. Foster, H. Barger, Dr. Wallenborn along with the many other prominent historians and professors deserve fair representation in the lede and in the section. They are not an inconsequential, or a "fringe" group by any means, esp since Foster, Barger, Wallenborn and others were at the center of the controversy from the time DNA evidence was misrepresented. Their accounts are represented in the mainstream which is largely why the issue is controversial. If their accounts were only published by some fly by night news rag, etc, there would be no national controversy among historians and professors.
Since this has been well discussed now and there are more than enough reliable sources, we also need to mention that bias has played a major role among those who have misrepresented the evidence from the start and who have "concluded" that Jefferson was not only the father of one, but all of Hemings' children. We also have more than enough sources to mention in the lede that there are other points of view among a good number of historians. This is not Stalinist Russia guys. We need to make the article fair, balanced and objective. The website sources that say "most historians" allows us to say that, but that's it. It is not grounds to be ignoring the many other accounts as something that is inconsequential. If you maintain all of these people, Dr. Foster, Dr. Wallenberg, Barger, professors at Harvard, Virginia, et al, are of no consequence, which is absurd, then there is no controversy and we remove it from the lede. Btw, there is indeed a controversy, it should have mention, fair mention, in the lede and my advice to you would be to educate yourself on matters before you take part in a debate you evidently know little about. This debate is getting old, has been attempted before several times and has failed each time for the same reasons outlined now. Past participates that share these views are not present at this particular time no doubt because they're tired of repeating the same points over and again. -- Gwillhickers 00:28, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
You keep ignoring several items. One, that opposing views are indeed prominent and covered in mainstream secondary sources as was pointed out several times now, and two, WP policy says, Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints. The opposing views are indeed significant and is why there is a controversy. There is also a quote from Jimbo Wales in that same section which says If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents. (emphasis added) This was done, quite easily. The opposing views are indeed held by a significant minority, as is evidenced by numerous and established historians and professors from numerous major universities and people central to the controversy, like Dr. Eugene Foster, etc. Commentary should be limited to the section and differing views be given fair representation. Such details do not belong in the lede and not be given the same weight as the established historical facts, like the DOI, Louisiana Purchase and slavery. -- Gwillhickers 23:15, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
I disagree. WP isn't interested in the consensus of institutions A, B, and C, but in the overall consensus of the academy--the leading scholars of history. They are not necessarily correct, but they are the arbiters of mainstream thought. Francis D. Cogliano presents an excellent historiography on the Jefferson-Hemings controversy on pp. 170-198 of
Thomas Jefferson: Reputation and Legacy. The online format has two large gaps; any person in the U.S. can readily find the book at their local library or ask there for an inter-library loan. A careful reading of Chap.6 of that book should end this debate.
Half of p. 183 is given to David N. Mayer's defense of TJ, summed up by a short quote from John Works: "Defending Thomas Jefferson, therefore, has come to mean defending what America means, and we feel compelled to rise to that defense." Cogliano immediately follows with, "Among scholars, this defense has been ineffective." Both Mayer and Works are members of the TJHS, which Cogliano tells about on pp. 180-183. Wrt their report, he writes on p. 181 that "it shows that the work of the TJHS, while cloaked in scholarly objectivity, promotes an explicit political agenda." Cogliano concludes on p. 191,"Now that most scholars accept the Jefferson-Hemings relationship as a fact it will be necessary to re-evaluate Thomas Jefferson's life and character . . ." [emphasis added]
This is who Cogliano is. Yopienso ( talk) 11:11, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
Actually the recent round of edits and debate started here when you reverted an edit that added balance to the Hemings presentation in the lede as the page had recently. (This is not to see it's all your fault.) The page was stable when it reflected both significant views in the lede. As I've always said, it's not my wish to remove most historians, only to give fair representation to the significant views as the lede did one before, and as you also added to the lede. I would like to remove the commentary from the lede and treat the Hemings topic no differently than the others, but if we must keep commentary there it should reflect both significant views. Don't think that compromise is unreasonable. -- Gwillhickers 19:06, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
William G. Hyland, Jr. claimed on p. 166 of In Defense of Thomas Jefferson: The Sally Hemings Sex Scandal that S.F. Wetmore coached Hemings. I am merely reporting this, not supporting or attacking Hyland or his claim. I do not think it should appear in this article, but could be appropriate to Thomas Jefferson and Slavery. Yopienso ( talk) 17:14, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
Wait, help. Lacy K. Ford says Jefferson’s was consistently anti-slavery, not increasingly anti-slavery after 1784 in his private, not public opposition. His opposition did not decline despite repeated frustration in the political arena? That is remarkable consistency, not hypocracy.
But, some of Jefferson’s recent biographers have questioned TJ’s moral stance as complex and contradictory? Could this mean the biographers simply deny the legitimacy of Jefferson’s nationalism, which took 'slavery policy' as a means to a larger end – continued national unity and therefore perpetuating U.S. independence in a world of competing empires north (English), west (French/Spanish) and south (Spanish/English) and east at sea (British/French)? TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 21:44, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
Binks, you need a cite to source southern threats at secession (end continental nationalism in the U.S. of the Jefferson-Adams sort) over slavery were developed by 1810? I introduce my students to the idea by a scene from the movie 1776, cut or uncut version, where Pinkney sings, “Molassas to rum to slaves”, and the ‘whole south’ walks out of the Continental Congress debating independence – in 1776.
That sentiment does not evaporate with the 1783 Treaty of Paris. The South, or more properly, elements of it, assume a minority stance of “rule or ruin” the United States, leveraging slave-power, then the race card. I would re-read LSUs ‘History of the South’ in eight volumes for you, but I’m on another project. For the latest iteration, see the threatened default of U.S. good faith and credit over the last two months, merely a continuation of ‘rule or ruin’ mindset.
Jefferson had to trim expressions on slavery for his political base in the short run, and let the evolving superiority of free soil build majority over time in the nation, allowing the working of democracy and majority rule to find a solution to the issue of slavery. Which in one sense the 'rule or ruin' fire-eaters forced on the nation in a civil war, --- where --- God may not have been on either side as Lincoln observed in his Second Inaugural, --- but it was certainly --- Napoleon's 'God is on the side of the biggest battalions', for the good of all, slave and free, that all would be free. A sentiment shared by Jefferson and Lincoln, although both were at times manifestly ambivalent about how to go about it in the real world of American politics and majority elections. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 07:08, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
All editors are invited to comment at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Proposed topic ban for Gwillhickers on Thomas Jefferson and also slavery, as it is relevant to this article. Binksternet ( talk) 03:36, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
Though Brad's last edit was thought provoking, per Jackson, et al, it was of course not appropriate for the lede as I'm sure he knows ("har de har"). Yopienso's last edit seems appropriate, that Jefferson "expressed" opposition to slavery and leaves the door open to interpretation. -- Gwillhickers 20:37, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Naturally the Hemings section has grown all over again after several attempts in the past to chop it. Little is included in the article on TJ's post-presidency and several other areas. How much can we add to this article before it becomes 10 lbs of feces in a 5 lb box? How long will slavery and Hemings remain more important than anything TJ ever did in life? Brad ( talk) 14:36, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
A slave owner himself, Jefferson wrote that he believed slavery was harmful to both slave and master.[194] His views on the institution of slavery and African slaves, however, are complex; historians are divided on whether he truly opposed it. He had inherited slaves from both his father, Peter, and his wife's father, John Wayles. Over the course of his life, he owned some 600 slaves,[213] buying and selling them as necessary to pay his bill and maintain some 130 at any one time to work at Monticello.
Although he hoped to see the end of slavery,[201][206] Jefferson did not wish to challenge the Virginia culture that relied on slave labor to cultivate tobacco and grain.[207] During his lawyer years, he took on cases involving slavery and on one occasion refused to defend an overseer who whipped a slave to death. He drafted the Virginia law of 1778 prohibiting the importation of slaves. In the mid-1770s he drafted and proposed a plan of gradual emancipation whereby all slaves born after a certain date would be freed. Expansion of slavery was to be limited to only descendants of female slaves until the age of 25, after which they would become free. That bill was not passed. In 1807, Jefferson signed into law a bill prohibiting the transatlantic slave trade beginning on the first day of 1808, the earliest date permitted by the Constitution.
In his initial draft of the Declaration of Independence, Jefferson denounced the British government's role in the international slave trade[note 6][202 ] During the American Revolution, he accepted common racial stereotypes of African Americans and did not take into consideration the plight of slaves. [235] Although he proposed abolishing slavery in all territories to the west after 1800 in his draft of the Land Ordinance of 1784, that provision was stricken by Congress. It did influence Congress to prohibit slavery in the Northwest Ordinance of 1787. The 1803 Louisiana Purchase was a great achievement of the Jefferson administration, but the President was criticized for having allowed slavery to continue in the newly acquired vast territory.
Jefferson opposed the Missouri Compromise of 1820, which established a geographical dividing line among the states, believing that such a division and attempt to limit slavery would lead to war.[215] He expressed this concern in an April 22 letter to John Holmes, worried that such a division among the states would eventually lead to the destruction of the Union.
In his “Notes on the State of Virginia,” (1785) Jefferson expressed a "strong suspicion" that the Negro “was inferior to whites in both the endowments of body and mind.”[234][234] His solution for the slavery dilemma was to transport blacks to Africa where they could set up a free and independent black nation, leaving the United States as a white society. [end]
Alt.: The 1803 Louisiana Purchase was a great achievement of the Jefferson administration, complicated by the establishment of pre-existing French slaveholders from modern Illinois to Missouri to Louisiana. Faced with the option to confiscate the slaves of French nationals, Jefferson chose to answer English and Spanish objections to the sale by quickly incorporating resident settlers politically into U.S. territories. Jefferson's failure to tamper with preexisting conditions led to criticism for his having allowed slavery to continue in the newly acquired territory, and the adoption of the Code Napoleon in the New Orleans Territory that would become the state of Louisiana. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 15:11, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Something else for a change besides slavery and Hemings! The UVA section can be trimmed and made more relevant to what TJ did for it. The current section reads very suspiciously like a copy/paste either from a website or a UVA brochure although I've never been able to find the source. Brad ( talk) 14:22, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Another bloated section that needs an axe. Currently it takes the reader on a history tour of the Barbary States with way too much that is irrelevant to TJ. Overall the FBW was not a big part of TJ's presidency and it should be treated as such. Historians give little attention to this conflict relating to TJ. Eliminate the entire section and summarize elsewhere with a short description. Brad ( talk) 20:30, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Also doesn't warrant a section. Cosway and her relationship with TJ can be summed up in Minister to Paris. Brad ( talk) 21:09, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Here is a suggested consolidation and condensed 'Louisiana Purchase' section. All points are preserved to the best of my ability as I mostly edited for conciseness among existing, Yopienso and myself. Others may remove the actual points made as too detailed for here, better left to the reader to find at Main Article: Louisiana Purchase. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 11:01, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Proposal
In 1803, in the midst of the Napoleonic wars between France and Britain, Thomas Jefferson authorized the Louisiana Purchase, a major land acquisition from France that doubled the size of the United States. Having lost the revenue potential of Haiti while escalating his wars against the rest of Europe, Napoleon gave up on an empire in North America and used the purchase money to help finance France's war campaign on its home front.[100][99]
Jefferson had sent James Monroe and Robert R. Livingston to Paris in 1802 to try to buy the city of New Orleans and adjacent coastal areas, with the assistance of French nobleman, Pierre Samuel du Pont de Nemours. Napoleon offered to sell the entire Territory for a price of $15 million, which Treasury Secretary Albert Gallatin financed easily. The purchase was without explicit Constitutional authority, but most contemporaries thought that this opportunity was exceptional and could not be missed.[102] The Purchase proved to be one of the largest fertile tracts of land on the planet, and it marked the end of French imperial ambitions in North America which were potentially in conflict with American expansion west.[103]
Some historians, such as Ron Chernow note Jefferson’s inconsistency, “Jefferson, the strict constructionist, committed a breathtaking act of executive power that far exceeded anything anticipated in the Constitution.”[104] Other historians dispute this with the following reasoning: Countries change their borders by conquest, or by treaty. The Constitution specifically grants the president the power to negotiate treaties (Art. II, Sec. 2), and Jefferson’s secretary of state, James Madison gave assurances that the Purchase was well within even the strictest interpretation of the Constitution. The Senate quickly ratified the treaty, and the House, immediately authorized funding.[105][106][107][108] On December 20, 1803 the French flag was lowered in New Orleans and the U.S. flag raised, symbolizing the transfer of the Louisiana territory from France to the United States.[109][110]
Historians differ in their assessments as to who was the principal player in the purchase; among Napoleon, Jefferson, his secretary of state James Madison, and his negotiator James Monroe.[111] The historian George Herring noted the Purchase "is often and rightly regarded as a diplomatic windfall—the result of accident, luck, and the whim of Napoleon Bonaparte."[113] Though France was removed as a threat to the United States, Jefferson refused to recognize the new republic of Haiti, the second in the Western Hemisphere, and imposed an arms and trade embargo against it.[101] The entire territory was not finally secured until England and Mexico gave up their claims to northern and southern portions, respectively, during the presidency of James Polk (1845–1849).
While the 1803 Louisiana Purchase was a great achievement of the Jefferson administration, domestically it was complicated by the establishment of pre-existing French slaveholders from modern Illinois to Missouri to Louisiana. Faced with the option to confiscate the slaves of French nationals, Jefferson chose to answer English and Spanish objections to the sale by quickly incorporating resident settlers politically into U.S. territories. Jefferson's failure to tamper with preexisting conditions led to criticism for his having allowed slavery to continue in the newly acquired territory, and the adoption of the Code Napoleon in the New Orleans Territory that would become the state of Louisiana.
[End proposal] TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 11:01, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
In 1803, in the midst of the Napoleonic wars between France and Britain, Thomas Jefferson authorized the Louisiana Purchase, a major land acquisition from France that doubled the size of the United States. Having lost the revenue potential of Haiti while escalating his wars against the rest of Europe, Napoleon gave up on an empire in North America and used the purchase money to help finance France's war campaign on its home front.[100][99]
Jefferson had sent James Monroe and Robert R. Livingston to Paris in 1802 to try to buy the city of New Orleans and adjacent coastal areas, with the assistance of French nobleman, Pierre Samuel du Pont de Nemours a friend and close ally of Jefferson. Napoleon offered to sell the entire Territory for a price of $15 million, which Treasury Secretary Albert Gallatin financed easily. The purchase was without explicit Constitutional authority, but most contemporaries thought that this opportunity was exceptional and could not be missed.[102] In the face of criticism from some of Jefferson's other contemporaries James Madison gave his assurances that the Purchase was well within even the strictest interpretation of the Constitution. The Senate quickly ratified the treaty, and the House, immediately authorized funding.[105][106][107][108] The Purchase proved to be one of the largest fertile tracts of land on the planet, and it marked the end of French imperial ambitions in North America which were potentially in conflict with American expansion west.[103]
On December 20, 1803 the French flag was lowered in New Orleans and the U.S. flag raised, symbolizing the transfer of the Louisiana territory from France to the United States.[109][110] while France was removed as a threat to the United States. [101] The entire territory was not finally secured until England and Mexico gave up their claims to northern and southern portions, respectively, during the presidency of James Polk (1845–1849).
While the 1803 Louisiana Purchase was a great achievement of the Jefferson administration, domestically it was complicated by the establishment of pre-existing French slaveholders from modern Illinois to Missouri to Louisiana. Faced with the option to confiscate the slaves of French nationals, Jefferson chose to answer English and Spanish objections to the sale by quickly incorporating resident settlers politically into U.S. territories. Jefferson's failure to tamper with preexisting conditions led to criticism for his having allowed slavery to continue in the newly acquired territory, and the adoption of the Code Napoleon in the New Orleans Territory that would become the state of Louisiana. Since the purchase historians have differed in their assessments regarding constitutional and slavery issues.
I've boldly gone ahead with my proposal, with just a tweak or two. It seemed most editors were fine with it, but somehow the proposal has languished. I regret that I have messed up some citations, and hope some of you retirees will take the time to fix that problem. I do not like the wording of the last paragraph, but cannot take the time to improve it. I think it is important to end on that note, however. Yopienso ( talk) 21:42, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
Let's dismiss the argument that flawed text which has been in dispute for many months is somehow blessed by lasting a long time in the article. Instead, let's look again at what the consensus is for reducing the section on slavery:
It is quite clear that consensus is for reduction. While looking through the archives, I noticed that upon his arrival at the article, Cmguy777 was strongly opposed by Gwillhickers because of differences of opinion over content, but the two editors appeared to slowly realign themselves to work as a team after they found common ground. In August 2012 User:Other Choices observed, "This article has been plagued for many months by a pair of obsessive, opposing POV pushers whose only point of agreement is their shared willingness to add reliably-sourced 'stuff' to the article ad nauseum..." In other words, the section bloat was caused by disputes about content rather than agreement. I think it would be a mistake to say that the slavery section text was optimal in the 12-paragraph version I found earlier this year. It should be reduced per WP:SUMMARY, and the detail brought to the TJ and slavery article. Binksternet ( talk) 17:03, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, Binksternet for the remarkable reduction of text in the 'Slaves and slavery' section while leaving the statement about treatment in tact. I never thought it could be reduced to such proportions but you seemed to have disproven that notion. I still have one reservation regarding treatment. The section says "comparatively well". If the five sources used actually support that wording then we can go ahead and run with it. If not we should change it (back) accordingly. From what I have seen, Jefferson overall treated his slaves exceptionally well. I'll look into it. -- Gwillhickers 19:13, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
We have scaled down both the Slaves' and 'Controversy sections, as was widely agreed upon. Unless either of these sections is missing important content it would seem we need to begin with the task of overall article improvement. The editors who have hovered over these sections, almost forcing the involvement of other editors, while ignoring the rest of the biography, need to give it a rest and stop rehashing the same old failed arguments. -- Gwillhickers 19:33, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
Just restored a statement that was removed July 10, i.e.banning of international slaved trade, considered one of Jefferson's biggest achievements. Also removed citations from the lede, as topics are cited in body of text. This convention is fairly common. -- Gwillhickers 00:37, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
Begin proposal. All notes and links are preserved, edited for conciseness. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 08:04, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
Jefferson's popularity suffered in his second term because the problems related to wars in Europe. Relations with Great Britain had always been bad, due partly to the violent personal antipathy between Jefferson and the British Ambassador, Anthony Merry. After Napoleon's decisive victory at the Battle of Austerlitz in 1805, Napoleon became much more aggressive in his negotiations over trading and neutrality rights, and American efforts failed. Jefferson responded with the Embargo Act of 1807, directed at both France and Great Britain. This triggered economic chaos in the US and strong criticism at the time, resulting in Jefferson's abandoning the policy within a year.[117]
Domestic politics were embroiled in controversy related to international affairs. Jefferson invoked the Alien and Sedition Acts to counter Federalist attacks, particularly those by Alexander Hamilton.[118] In 1807, Jefferson ordered his former vice president Aaron Burr tried for treason. Burr was charged with conspiring to levy war against the United States in an attempt to establish a separate confederacy composed of the Western states and territories, but he was acquitted.[119][120]
Following the Revolution all the states abolished the international slave trade, but South Carolina had reopened it. The Constitution of 1787 had protected the trade for only the first two decades of the nation’s history, so on his annual message of December 1806, Jefferson denounced the "violations of human rights" attending the international slave trade and he called on the newly elected Congress to criminalize it on the first day possible.[121] Congress passed the Act Prohibiting Importation of Slaves, effective January 1, 1808.[122][123] While the act established severe punishment against the international trade, it did not regulate the domestic slave trade.
End proposal. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 08:04, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
Agree with Gwillhickers that reelection needs first paragraph treatment. Louisiana Purchase 1803 is in the first term, not the second beginning March 1805. Banning slave trade, first proposed December 1806 after second term mid-term elections, was the way early republicans and federalists believed slavery could end without further government interference in the states such as SC, before the impact of the cotton gin in the Old Southwest (TN, AL, MS). It is not chronological to denigrate an achievement in January 1808 which did not foresee the 1830s cotton South. More later. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 09:45, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Existing paragraph reads Due to political attacks against Jefferson, in particular those by Alexander Hamilton and his supporters, he used the Alien and Sedition Acts to counter some of these political adversaries.[119]
It was my understanding that the Alien and Sedition Acts lapsed in Jefferson's first term and were not re-inacted. Meacham says on p. 409, that in Jefferson's second inaugural, he criticized "the artillery of the press" with "licentiousness". But, Meacham says, "The marketplace, however, should decide. Censorship should be in the hands of the people." --
Is the quoted paragraph here in the article in error? Or do I misunderstand "counter"? TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 18:33, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Hi All
I am new to this talk page, so please excuse me if I am rehashing old discussions.
The page on TJ says that he was a big supporter of democracy. This should read 'democratic replublicanism.' The founders were opposed to majority rules which is why they passed the bill of rights.
DRGetchell ( talk) 19:25, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
The following summary is from the Meacham chapters on Jefferson's second term. It includes treating Spain, Quids, Burr, USS Chesapeake war fever, Embargo to election of Madison. Not sure how to shuffle existing separate sections on Burr and Embargo...
Year sub-sections are administratively provided only for ease in making editing comments. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 20:20, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
In 1805 tensions with Spain held center stage, revolving around the exact boundaries of the Louisiana Territory, negotiations over the Floridas, and outstanding financial claims. A mission of James Monroe to Spain failed, and Spain allied with France led some in the administration to speculate over action against Spanish outposts explored by Zebulon Pike, or even an alliance with England. Jefferson sought to maintain neutrality, strengthening harbor defenses, building coastal gun boats and preparing militias for possible deployment at key points such as New Orleans.<ref>Meacham, Jon. “Thomas Jefferson: the art of power” 2012 Random House ISBN 978-1-4000-6766-4, p.412-413</ref>
The domestic political split in Jefferson’s own party came from fellow Virginian John Randolph of Roanoke in March 1806. Jefferson and Madison backed resolutions to limit or ban British imports in retaliation for British depredations against American shipping. Jefferson’s Secretary of Treasury proposed spending $20 million in roads and canals in infrastructure, leading to the National Road west from Maryland. Randolph held that Jefferson had gone too far in a Federalist direction, building a congressional caucus of “ Quids”, Latin tertium quid, “a third something”, calling for a purity in republican principles and roundly denouncing both Jefferson and Madison.<ref>Meacham, Jon. “Thomas Jefferson: the art of power” 2012 Random House ISBN 978-1-4000-6766-4, p.415-417</ref>
After Aaron Burr was disgraced in the duel of 1804, he was reported by the British Ambassador as wanting to “effect a separation of the western part of the United States [from the Appalachian Mountains]”. Jefferson believed that to be so by November 1806 because Burr had been rumored to be variously plotting with some western states to secede for an independent empire, or to raise a filibuster conquer Mexico. At the very least, there were reports of Burr’s recruiting men, stocking arms and building boats. New Orleans seemed especially vulnerable, but at some point the American general there, James Wilkinson, a double agent for the Spanish, decided to turn on Burr. Jefferson issued a proclamation warning that there were U.S. citizens illegally plotting to take over Spanish holdings. Though Burr was nationally discredited, Jefferson feared for the very Union. In a report to Congress January 1807, Jefferson declared Burr’s guilt “placed beyond question”. By March 1807 Burr was arrested in New Orleans and placed on trial for treason at Richmond Virginia, Chief Justice John Marshall presiding. The weak government case led to Burr’s acquittal, but Burr was never able to mount another adventure.<ref>Meacham, Jon. “Thomas Jefferson: the art of power” 2012 Random House ISBN 978-1-4000-6766-4, p.405, 419-422.</ref>
Jefferson tried to prepare for war following the HMS Leopard attack on the USS Chesapeake off the Virginia coast. He issued a proclamation banning armed British ships from entering U.S. waters. He called on the governors of the states to have quotas for a total of 100,000 militia, and he ordered purchase of arms, ammunition and supplies. The orders went out unilaterally, without prior Congressional approval. Said the former Virginia governor who had fled Tarlton without calling out Virginia militia, “The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation [than strict observance of written laws]. The USS Revenge sent to receive an answer from the British government was itself fired upon, including its passenger, Vice President George Clinton. July 31 1807 Jefferson called for a special session of Congress in October.<ref>Meacham, Jon. “Thomas Jefferson: the art of power” 2012 Random House ISBN 978-1-4000-6766-4, p.425-429</ref>
In December news arrived of Napoleon extending the Berlin Decree banning British imports everywhere, including the U.S. George III ordered redoubling efforts at impressment. But war fever of the summer had faded, Congress was in not in a mood to prepare the U.S. for war. Jefferson asked for and received the Embargo Act, the least bad option to war or doing nothing, but gaining time for defensive works, and building up militias and naval forces. Legislation passed December 1807, a projection of power and enforcement which historian Jon Meacham called surpassing even the hated Alien and Sedition Acts. But domestic economic consequences and widespread negative reaction caused an end to the embargo in time for Jefferson's Secretary of State James Madison to win the 1808 presidential election.<ref>Meacham, Jon. “Thomas Jefferson: the art of power” 2012 Random House ISBN 978-1-4000-6766-4, p.429-431</ref>
end Meacham sourcing. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 20:20, 4 December 2013 (UTC)