![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
According to the lisp article, Thomas Jefferson spoke with a lisp. Should this be added to the trivia section? Rmpfu89 20:42, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Moved from my talk page:
==Thomas Jefferson== Hey, I saw that you reverted my removal of the following text to the Thomas Jefferson article without explanation:
This wikipedia text claims that D. James Kenedy calls Jefferson "a true friend of the Christian faith" because baptists supported his efforts to disestablish the church(something not mentioned at all in the sited article). A look at the source sited shows that D. James Kennedy (a presbyterian) called Jefferson "a true friend of the Christian church" because he thinks believe Jefferson DIDN'T support seperation of church and state. Thus, a claim is made in the wikipedia article which is contradicted by the very article it sites. Shadowoftime 22:08, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I reverted without explanation because you deleted without explanation. Now that you've explained, I will undo my revert, if you haven't beaten me to it already. Simple. Alienus 01:24, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
see topic. ( Stevenwagner 02:00, 18 April 2006 (UTC)).
Not only do we not have an article on this, it isn't even mentioned in the text of the article! This is pretty shameful. john k 02:38, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Good start! john k 17:22, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I really don't think that the slave/paternity controversy merits a mention in the intro. The paragraph is about Jefferson's important political philosophies and government positions. It seems very out of place there, and the subject has due coverage in the slavery section of the article, and in the Sally Hemings article. -- Jon Stockton 06:32, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
It seems very odd to be reading about his death before his life? Does anyone object to moving his death nearer to the ending? Skywriter 23:17, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
in the part about religion it is stated:
"Jefferson used deist terminology in repeatedly stating his belief in a creator, and in the United States Declaration of Independence used the terms "Creator", "Nature's God", and "Divine Providence"."
however the term "Divine Providence" in the Declaration of Independence is not from the version written by Jefferson, but was added later by the convention, in other words, obviously Franklin or Adams.
-Juha Uski
No-one is going to add into this little document that the only reason Thomas Jefferson was elected was because of the 3/5ths compromise? No one is going to mention that he was elected because slaves were 3/5ths of a vote, and he was the southern candidate? NO-ONE will mention the fact that without the 3/5ths compromise theres no way he would've been president?
What kind of ridiculous crap is this? 69.181.56.152Sajun777
User JW1805 and others have summarily removed comment by former American Historical Association President John Hope Franklin from this page several times, without discussion on this page, so far. In the last revert, User JW1805 claimed the historian's comments were "speculative." In reply, I would ask, what are the other comments in that section?
This is factual, not speculative, and it adds a perspective different from the commission. Mayer's opinion has been removed as his opinion is represented in the report of the scholar's commission, which I have linked to directly. The following is new and is not elsewhere represented.
Franklin said it does not matter "whether he slept with her or not. He could have. After all, he owned her. She was subject to his exploitation in every conceivable way. ... But, you see, it's not the important subject, it seems to me...."
Why would you want to suppress that viewpoint? Skywriter 23:21, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
This article fails utterly to integrate the contradictions of Jefferson's lifestyle of being a major slave owner with his commendable philosophy for which we are eternally grateful. Nuance and contradiction ought not be thrown out the window. They must be addressed.
Further, there is an apparent difference of opinion on the placement of the discussion of slavery near the end of the article rather than placing it higher up and certainly before Jefferson's death. I have previously questioned the placement of the section on his death above discussion of his life and no one has replied to that comment, either defending its placement or otherwise. That constitutes the other unresolved controversy. I will leave this note here this weekend to await comment before placing the POV flag on this article. I of course welcome comment. Skywriter 21:18, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
This is probed, using primary sources, in the discussion by the legal scholar Paul Finkelman, cited at the bottom of the article. Slavery and the Founders: Race and Liberty in the Age of Jefferson (2001) Ben Franklin, e.g. had owned slaves but eventually morphed into an abolitionist. The short story, as Finkelman documents, it is that Washington freed his slaves upon his wife's death, but Jefferson did not free his slaves upon his own death because he loved the good life and spent more than his plantation slaves earned in profits during Jefferson's lifetime. His debts were such that the bondage of all but three or four of his several hundred slaves continued after his death to pay off his debts. He freed several in Sally's family but not Sally. Finkelman compares Jefferson's practices as a slave owner with his contemporaries in Virginia, and that is worth the price of the book. He also details how Jefferson made a special deal with Sally Hemming's brother. Bringing slaves into France was prohibited, particularly during the Enlightenment. Jefferson did not want to risk breaking French law. He loved France and the Enlightenment and wanted to be thought well of there. The contradiction is he also loved luxury and being waited upon. The substance of the signed contract with Sally's brother was-- come with me to France, wait on me, and cook for me. When we return in five years, you will be free. The man was freed in Philadelphia upon their return to the states. Skywriter 22:20, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Oh yes, we do feel his pain. And that's saying nothing of how you'd feel as one of Jefferson's slaves. House or yard? What's your preference? Skywriter 02:12, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Single out? This is a biographical article of Thomas Jefferson. It should accurately reflect who he was in all major aspects, the complexity of his being, not cherry-pick those parts of his biography that are appealing, or make him look good. Most astounding is that this article does not reflect the duality of who he was. Many scholars have discussed that his words "All men are created equal" did not apply to people of African heritage, yet this is nowhere on the radar here. As Finkelman, the constitutional scholar and expert on slavery, and others have shown, the Declaration of Independence and U.S. Constitution ensured the continuation of slavery. Jefferson was the major writer. The contradiction, the elephant in the living room of American history, is ignored in this article in favor of hagiography on a subject of racism that continues to trouble the United States to this day. Skywriter 15:09, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
...due to previously discussed aggressive suppresion of a viewpoint. The section on slavery is hagiography and does not come close to examining the subject in a non-adoring fashion. I welcome discussion but will not support suppression of differing viewpoints. Skywriter 01:36, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I do not really care if the template appears or not, though it does uglify the page - I'd like to see it on more articles. Just what do want to change that is not there, other than move it up? -- JimWae 02:24, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
JW1805, thank you for responding on the Talk page. The tags were affixed to reflect the latest of the several unexplained reversions. Would you explain in more detail your objections to the historian's observations introducing a valid viewpoint. "Ridiculous" does not apply. Skywriter 22:14, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
If that is your sole objection, delete that phrase and reinstate the remainder. Thanks. Skywriter 03:58, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Could we please extend this to a conversation - rather than a dialogue? -- JimWae 04:12, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Everyone can contribute, JimWae. Skywriter 18:05, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
The Declaration of Independence was not a personal document. Jefferson was not bargaining with SC & GA. Only the Congress could adopt it in its final form. -- JimWae 05:06, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
NOTE JW1805 quikcly replied a tad over-enthusiastically in interlinear fashion that tends to mute the intent and substance of my earlier post, and destroying the separate arguments of what I said vs what JW1805 said. My earlier post is therefore reposted here for the purpose of remaining intact for future readers of this archive.
In response to the comment by JW1805 (above), last night's revision, and in support of why this article is totally disputed is the following.
I have contributed to the page, beginning months ago, with the addition of Finkelman (Slavery and the Founders in the Age of Jefferson) a spot-on resource, and I added a primary source: Edwin Morris Betts (editor), Thomas Jefferson's Farm Book (1953) (upon which Finkelman bases part of his salient analyses, together with the other key primary resource on slavery and TJ's faux-scientific racism, Notes on the State of Virginia.)
As editor of the 20-volume encyclopedia on slavery and numerous books on the subject, Finkelman, a legal scholar is not to be ignored. What he has to say about TJ should be summarized in this article.
I added the section with John Hope Franklin's views on why the paternity in the matter of Sally Heming's children does not matter. His is a viewpoint distinctly different from what is presented, a relevant, incisive perspective, yet it was, and continues to be rejected outright in several reversions, prompting the dispute tags. I offered a compromise, as requested (above, in this thread), and it was not accepted.
The material on what did not go into the Declaration is not nearly as important as say, Ira Berlin writing of 1778 in Many Thousands Gone: The First Two Centuries of Slavery in North America (Belnap Press: 1998) pp 231-232 -- "The wartime erosion of slavery encouraged direct assaults against the institution itself. The heady notions of universal human equality that justified American independence gave black people a powerful weapon with which to attack chattel bondage, and they understood that this was no time to be quiet... Black people throughout the North made themselves heard...denounced the double standard that allowed white Americans to fight for freedom while denying that right to blacks.... Success bred success. Black people who gained their freedom by legislative enactment, individual manumission, and successful flight pressed all the harder for universal emancipation, demanding first the release of their families and friends, and than all black people still in bondage.... Such actions could not be ignored easily by those who marched under the banner of Jefferson's declaration."
The material in the book with the title that mocks both black people and Thomas Jefferson ( Negro President) is hardly as cogent as Berlin (above) or Finkelman in getting to the point.
The addition of one sentence by Abrose, who did not study Jefferson on racism and slavery in depth, is palliative in that it fails to explore the contradiction between the noble phrase "all men are created equal" and the reality that as he wrote it, one fifth were not, and even not free on his own plantation, an economic situation from which he personally profited.
Here are some resources that could be incorporated into this article to make it less hagiography. The central problem with this Wikipedia article (and not just on the stepchild section on slavery) is that it does not give the subject credit for complexity, and it ignores historians who point to the contradictions between the powerful words "all men are created equal" and the wink and the nod that implied "except black men and women."
http://www.pbs.org/jefferson/archives/interviews/frame.htm Particularly the views of the two historians who have done the most work in the area of Jefferson and slavery: John Hope Franklin | Historian Paul Finkelman | Historian
Why is what Finkelman says about Jefferson and slavery important? http://www.law.utulsa.edu/faculty_staff/pfinkelman/vita2006
Why is Jefferson's words and deeds on slavery and black people the second to the last item on this Wikipedia page, with only monuments and trivia following? http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/modules/slavery/ "Slavery has often been treated as a marginal aspect of history, confined to courses on southern or African American history. In fact, slavery played a crucial role in the making of the modern world. Slavery provided the labor force for the Slavery played an indispensable role in the settlement and development of the New World." Jefferson's opinions on blacks (laid out in copious detail in Notes on the State of Virginia) should be summarized within the main body of this article and not thrown in at the end of this article as an afterthought.
Why? Because his views about black people and segregation were influential in affecting the course of U.S. history. On that point, both the left and the right agree: http://www.vahistorical.org/publications/abstract_parkinson.htm
Why are the words of John Hope Franklin on the Heming's controversy excluded from this Wikipedia article? Likely for the same reason another historian points out here:
"I'm not saying that all these people are racist and that they hate blacks," she added. "No. I think that the response to this story is the legacy of slavery. This is absolutely the way people have been taught to think whether they consciously know it or not, of devaluing black people's words when they are inconvenient." [Looking Beyond Jefferson the Icon to a Man and His Slave Mistress NYT, June 28, 1997 By Daryl Royster Alexander]
What is another viewpoint other than the claim (incorporated into this Wikipedia article last night) that Jefferson meant well with an early draft of the Declaration? In a review of three books published in the Washington Post, Kahlenberg says the following of Africans In America: America's Journey Through Slavery by Charles Johnson, Patricia Smith and the WGBH Series Research Team Harcourt Brace. 494 pp.
Captives of History By Richard D. Kahlenberg Sunday, November 8, 1998; Page X01, WP
"One inescapable theme is the great contradiction in the nation's founding, which was grounded in liberty but coupled with the enslavement of a fifth of the population. At the time of the Revolution, the Americans fought for freedom, but it was the British who promised to liberate any slaves who joined their side. The nation's patriarch, George Washington, began owning slaves at age 11. Thomas Jefferson appropriately denounced the British for their role in the slave trade in an initial draft of the Declaration of Independence, but was forced to delete the clause under the weight of the obvious contradiction."
If you require more discussion or disagree with the foregoing, I will be happy to reply. Skywriter 14:34, 20 May 2006 (UTC) End of Repost for Purpose of Clarity in Argument
<beginning of JW1805 interlinear reply to the notes above
In response to the comment by JW1805 (above), last night's revision, and in support of why this article is totally disputed is the following.
I have contributed to the page, beginning months ago, with the addition of Finkelman (Slavery and the Founders in the Age of Jefferson) a spot-on resource, and I added a primary source: Edwin Morris Betts (editor), Thomas Jefferson's Farm Book (1953) (upon which Finkelman bases part of his salient analyses, together with the other key primary resource on slavery and TJ's faux-scientific racism, Notes on the State of Virginia.)
As editor of the 20-volume encyclopedia on slavery and numerous books on the subject, Finkelman, a legal scholar is not to be ignored. What he has to say about TJ should be summarized in this article.
I added the section with John Hope Franklin's views on why the paternity in the matter of Sally Heming's children does not matter. His is a viewpoint distinctly different from what is presented, a relevant, incisive perspective, yet it was, and continues to be rejected outright in several reversions, prompting the dispute tags. I offered a compromise, as requested (above, in this thread), and it was not accepted.
The material on what did not go into the Declaration is not nearly as important as say, Ira Berlin writing of 1778 in Many Thousands Gone: The First Two Centuries of Slavery in North America (Belnap Press: 1998) pp 231-232 -- "The wartime erosion of slavery encouraged direct assaults against the institution itself. The heady notions of universal human equality that justified American independence gave black people a powerful weapon with which to attack chattel bondage, and they understood that this was no time to be quiet... Black people throughout the North made themselves heard...denounced the double standard that allowed white Americans to fight for freedom while denying that right to blacks.... Success bred success. Black people who gained their freedom by legislative enactment, individual manumission, and successful flight pressed all the harder for universal emancipation, demanding first the release of their families and friends, and than all black people still in bondage.... Such actions could not be ignored easily by those who marched under the banner of Jefferson's declaration."
The material in the book with the title that mocks both black people and Thomas Jefferson ( Negro President) is hardly as cogent as Berlin (above) or Finkelman in getting to the point.
The addition of one sentence by Abrose, who did not study Jefferson on racism and slavery in depth, is palliative in that it fails to explore the contradiction between the noble phrase "all men are created equal" and the reality that as he wrote it, one fifth were not, and even not free on his own plantation, an economic situation from which he personally profited.
Here are some resources that could be incorporated into this article to make it less hagiography. The central problem with this Wikipedia article (and not just on the stepchild section on slavery) is that it does not give the subject credit for complexity, and it ignores historians who point to the contradictions between the powerful words "all men are created equal" and the wink and the nod that implied "except black men and women."
http://www.pbs.org/jefferson/archives/interviews/frame.htm Particularly the views of the two historians who have done the most work in the area of Jefferson and slavery: John Hope Franklin | Historian Paul Finkelman | Historian
Why is what Finkelman says about Jefferson and slavery important? http://www.law.utulsa.edu/faculty_staff/pfinkelman/vita2006
Why is Jefferson's words and deeds on slavery and black people the second to the last item on this Wikipedia page, with only monuments and trivia following? http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/modules/slavery/ "Slavery has often been treated as a marginal aspect of history, confined to courses on southern or African American history. In fact, slavery played a crucial role in the making of the modern world. Slavery provided the labor force for the Slavery played an indispensable role in the settlement and development of the New World." Jefferson's opinions on blacks (laid out in copious detail in Notes on the State of Virginia) should be summarized within the main body of this article and not thrown in at the end of this article as an afterthought.
Why? Because his views about black people and segregation were influential in affecting the course of U.S. history. On that point, both the left and the right agree: http://www.vahistorical.org/publications/abstract_parkinson.htm
Why are the words of John Hope Franklin on the Heming's controversy excluded from this Wikipedia article? Likely for the same reason another historian points out here:
"I'm not saying that all these people are racist and that they hate blacks," she added. "No. I think that the response to this story is the legacy of slavery. This is absolutely the way people have been taught to think whether they consciously know it or not, of devaluing black people's words when they are inconvenient." [Looking Beyond Jefferson the Icon to a Man and His Slave Mistress NYT, June 28, 1997 By Daryl Royster Alexander]
What is another viewpoint other than the claim (incorporated into this Wikipedia article last night) that Jefferson meant well with an early draft of the Declaration? In a review of three books published in the Washington Post, Kahlenberg says the following of Africans In America: America's Journey Through Slavery by Charles Johnson, Patricia Smith and the WGBH Series Research Team Harcourt Brace. 494 pp.
Captives of History By Richard D. Kahlenberg Sunday, November 8, 1998; Page X01, WP
"One inescapable theme is the great contradiction in the nation's founding, which was grounded in liberty but coupled with the enslavement of a fifth of the population. At the time of the Revolution, the Americans fought for freedom, but it was the British who promised to liberate any slaves who joined their side. The nation's patriarch, George Washington, began owning slaves at age 11. Thomas Jefferson appropriately denounced the British for their role in the slave trade in an initial draft of the Declaration of Independence, but was forced to delete the clause under the weight of the obvious contradiction."
If you require more discussion or disagree with the foregoing, I will be happy to reply. Skywriter 14:34, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
1) Callendar's claims have been conclusively disproved by DNA evidence. Jefferson is demonstrated not to have fathered any of H's kids at or before the time of Callendar's slanders.
2) The Thomas Jefferson Foundation's current position is far more ambiguous.
3) Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society's conclusion was not that the claim was "not persuasive" but tended much more to contradiction of it.
Very typical of the far-left slant of wikipedia. BulldogPete
How is concluding that someone fathered children "far left"? Right wing history denies such things does it? I can see them all now, leaping to the defence of Karl Marx against the calumny that he had a baby with his servant. Someone fathered those kids. It's no more left wing than it is right wing to conclude that it was Thomas rather than someone else. Paul B 11:13, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I thought the conclusion of the DNA research was that the father was LIKELY either TJ or his cousin/brother? - Further comment on this being that the brother/cousin was only occassionally a visitor to the plantation -- all suggestive & noetworthy but still inconclusive. -- JimWae 21:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Oh really? Which of Zinn's books are you referring to in which you found him to be critical of Jefferson? That would be genuinely newsworthy, if true. Skywriter 00:20, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
BulldogPete, did you intend for the 3-word comment above to be meaningful or simply a random placement of words that bear no relation to one another? Skywriter 20:52, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
The Sally Hemings controversy is such an emotional one for many people. I do not think that it should be a major part of a biography of Thomas Jefferson however. In 1998 when the DNA testing was performed there were five men that participated from the Woodson family. No one in this family had a match with the Jefferson Y chromosome. I think it is important to point this family out as an example of how this myth can go terribly wrong and hurt people. At the time the article came out the big news was a match between descendents of Eston Hemings and descendants of Field Jefferson. It was very compelling evidence indeed. Much overlooked at the time was that the test excluded all of Woodson's descendants and even showed a Y chromosome that neither matched a Woodson or a Jefferson and one man's DNA clearly indicated someone commited adultery somewhere in the past. In the seventies the magazine Ebony published stories about this African American family being the illegitimate descendants of a President and his slave concubine. Told as an uplifting story of overcoming hardship all while keeping an amazing secret. The story spawned books and a movie all portraying it as gospel. Years later we find out Woodson was the liar and at least one of his descendants was an adulterer. There is no proof. Contrary to what the Nature article claimed. Any DNA service will tell you that there is no way to prove paternity by this method. It is irresponsible to tell people they are descendants of Thomas Jefferson when they may not be. As a media form Wikipedia should use caution in this story. Welsh4ever76 02:02, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Welsh4ever76-- The source for your claims about Foster? Skywriter 22:25, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
http://www.oxfordancestors.com/faqs.htm#15 Can the Y-Clan™ or the Y-Line™ analysis prove paternity? No. Neither our Y-Clan™ nor our Y-Line™ services can prove paternity. If you want a test of this nature, then you should contact a company which specialises in paternity tests. However, both our Y-chromosome analysis services will show if two males are paternally unrelated. For example, if two brothers have totally different Y-Clan™ or Y-Line™ results, then they cannot have the same biological father. Please be aware of this possibility before requesting our Y-Clan™ or Y-Line™ service. A similar question to Family Tree DNA http://www.familytreedna.com/faq.html#q1.4 How is your test different from a paternity test? Family Tree DNA's primary test attempts to determine if 2 people thought to be unrelated actually had a common ancestor. Our specific purpose is to help recreate lost family links. Our test is for genealogy NOT for paternity, alimony or other legal purposes.
Thomas Jefferson was neither married to their mother nor said they were his children. Therefore the only way to prove paternity in modern times would be to have a sample from Thomas Jefferson and a sample from Eston Hemings. A descendant or relative will not do. After a sample is attained from both corpses then a test would be performed. A test can tell the difference between two brothers and then we could have PROOF. Eight weeks after releasing this story, Nature realized they made a mistake and issued a retraction, admitting, "The title assigned to our study was misleading." Because after proving that Jefferson had not fathered Woodson, it was revealed that their paternity conclusions about Jefferson fathering Eston were based on inaccurate and incomplete information, both scientifically and historically. Welsh4ever76 23:27, 27 May 2006 (UTC)welsh4ever76
Thank you for sharing your personal opinion, welsh4ever76. Of course it is disqualified because it is personal opinion. It is unverifiable and it is not sourced. I am sure it is a good theory in your view. However, the basis in agreement for the writing of Wikipedia articles is to avoid personal opinion and original research. So, I will ask the question again, will you cite proper sources for your allegations? If you can not, we can safely discard your claims in so far as reaching agreeemtn as to what should go in or stay out of this article. Skywriter 23:40, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
welsh4ever76, you have failed to source your claims, and have made a provably false claim. Nature did not retract the article. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/daily/may99/critics010699.htm Skywriter 00:06, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I just read it. It looks fine to me, and it is well sourced. It warns that it is "a subject of considerable controversy," it presents a reasonably mainstream view, and it links to two articles that present Sally Hemings and Jefferson DNA Data that go into great detail and present more references that the reader can follow up. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:09, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
The following links to the story as reported by the NYT's respected science writers (not Staples, the opinion columnist) but Nicholas Wade and Dinitia Smith.
November 1, 1998 DNA Tests Offer Evidence That Jefferson Fathered a Child With His Slave By Dinitia Smith and Nicholas Wade The New York Times "Science" November 1, 1998 http://web.mit.edu/racescience/in_media/thomas_jefferson/dna_tests_offer_evidence/index.html
For your further consideration, before it disappears into the paid archive. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/21/magazine/21uva.html
The central concerns with the recommendations of Welsh4ever76 is that he offers conjecture but nothing verifiable. This violates Wikipedia: verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research.
As the NYT story makes clear, the value of the research --that Welsh4ever76 disparages without benefit of citing sources to support his personal opinion,-- is that the chromosone study specifically, and for the first time ruled out the Woodson claims to TJ lineage, and specifically ruled in the probability that Eston Hemings is TJ's direct descendant. Discarding one part of this research while clinging to another part is not properly the purview of those who add items to this or any Wikipedia article. Our job is to cite or link to sources who support our POV, not spell out our POV without supporting research by knowledgable researchers who specialize in the area. This is not my personal opinion. It is Wikipedia policy. Skywriter 20:13, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
That NYT article says DNA tests rule out Woodson. The DNA tests do not rule out Hemmings - they are consistent with TJ being his father, but do not establish paternity. The findings mean that looking for other links between TJ & Hemmings is not wasting one's time, but would be for Woodson. Interpretation of our wikiarticle presently trades on the ambiguity of the word "valid" -- JimWae 20:26, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, can we put to rest the idea that the current article is "extremely biassed?" What I see at the moment is
A case can certainly be made that the present text needs some small additions or changes. People who think these changes are needed should propose the specific changes they'd like to make here. For example, if someone has a good source citation from a source meeting the WP:RS guidelines that says "Dr. Foster overstated his claims" that should be presented here, and we should discuss whether it is appropriate to include it in the article. Dpbsmith (talk) 10:37, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted changes by JW1805 for failure to discuss disputed changes on this Talk page while discussion is in progress.
I specifically dispute the truncating of and sidelining of the references to summary by Finkelman, a noted scholar on this subject, and replacement of his views with the expanded views of Ambrose, who has been in the news in recent years for plagiarism.
The fact and POV tag has been on this page for several weeks because the discussion of Jefferson and slavery is not fairly represented. It is hagiography with critical views excluded.
The placement of the section on slavery as an afterthought --at the end of the article-- is not warranted and this is also a point-of-view decision that is in dispute. Skywriter 14:54, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Once again, I say that you shouldn't be so sensitive when someone else edits your material, that is the nature of Wikipedia. Also, I would like to get the opinions of other editors besides Skywriter. Does anybody else think the article or this section is wildly POV? -- JW1805 (Talk) 16:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
JW1805 did not edit me. He edited Paul Finkelman, a subject matter expert, who presented a tight summary of facts. The effect of editing this legal scholar is to water down and remove pertinent facts. JW1805 previously edited John Hope Fanklin by deleting Franklin's view, based on JW1805's claim that his own personal point of view trumps comments by the historian, also a subject matter expert. JW1805 defended his deletions with the ill-considered (unpersuasive) argument that Franklin's view on the Hemings affair is "dumb." JW1805's unilateral actions precipitated the placement of tags on this page, and most recent activity suggests they are properly placed. The substance of the dispute has been ignored, and pertinent facts and informed viewpoints suppressed. JW1805 has an axe to grind. At the moment, his personal viewpoint dominates, to the detriment of the fairness in this article. Skywriter 13:25, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
The following deletion of facts from the legal scholar and subject matter expert Finkelman's summary is objectionable. "Jefferson made no effort to change the status of the three to four hundred other slaves he owned during the fifty years between the signing of Declaration and his death, on July 4, 1826." Skywriter 06:11, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I have no clue where to place this among this mess of an argument, so I'll place it here. This historian who goes by the name of Ambrose is clearly a moron. "Thomas Jefferson did not achieve greatness in his personal life. He had a slave as mistress. He lied about it." He didn't lie about it. How could he when he said nothing about it? As the section says, "Jefferson never responded publicly about this issue." I removed that particular Ambrose quote for obvious reasons. -- S. Parkhurst 22:14, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
It is instructive that JW1805 picks and chooses quotes from Ambrose, whom I objected to earlier. As everyone reading this must know, Ambrose was famously in the news, in the years before his death-- for plagiarism. JW1805 earlier chose to ignore that objection, and even after I removed Ambrose, he insisted on re-instating Abrose in this article. JW1805 replaced subject matter experts (Paul Finkelman and John Hope Franklin, both of whom have written extensively on this subject) with non-subject matter expert Ambrose who has had ethical issues. JW1805 chose the least revealing comments by Ambrose to replace factual summary by Finkelman. As long as JW1805 insists on including this non-subject matter expert in this article, it is fair to use the material from the same article that JW1805 quoted from, despite his claim above to the contrary, to fully reflect what Ambrose said, and not just the part of it that JW1805 likes. If JW1805 now rejects what his own source said, why did he bring that source and that web page into this article to begin with? If Ambrose is wrong about some facts, why is he in this article at all, and why are we referencing to that article? This is an example of selectively using a source to press personal viewpoint. Skywriter 06:04, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The central fact is that Thomas Jefferson had a tremendous impact on the lives of hundreds of people who served his family and whom he held in bondage their entire lives, and even after his own death. His influence impacted millions of black people who were held as slaves throughout the United States. This is not trivial. Those facts should be integrated into this article and not treated as an afterthought as they are now. The history of Jefferson's views on African Americans and on slavery are played down, and even ignored for the most part in this article, and left to the end of the article. For example, one "most important" fact of the Jefferson presidency was the Louisiana Purchase. The article as it now stands calls it "most important." Jefferson had the choice of permitting or prohibiting slavery in the vast new territory, and chose to promote slavery in the then new western region of the United States. This article is flawed because it specifically excludes that discussion. It is omission that contributes to the St. Thomas factor in this article, instead of an honest assessment of an important man's life. Skywriter 06:04, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The quote from Bacon is pure speculation, is based on nothing factual, and should be removed. It was in fact removed, and then reverted, thus giving further cause for this article being tagged as reflective of the St. Thomas Jefferson viewpoint to the exclusion of factual analyses by scholars who have studied his life and contributions, the good with the bad. Skywriter 06:04, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The following user at the time shown removed the disputed tag, without discussion: 05:16, 30 May 2006 71.139.182.34. This anonymous user, with a history of jacking in only to remove evidence that there is a dispute about how Jefferson's views on slavery and black people are portrayed in this article, is reversed for cause. Skywriter 08:32, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Under Interests and activities, would someone explain why there is no discussion of how Jefferson lived as the bon vivant only because he exploited hundreds of black people whom he kept in slavery? Why is there no connection between the fact that black people were sold after his death to pay off his debts and the following, which is stated so cheerily, as if there were no cause and effect, and no consequence to his actions?
"Jefferson was an avid wine lover and noted gourmet. During his years in France (1784-1789) he took extensive trips through French and other European wine regions and sent the best back home."
And, as Finkleman points out in Slavery and the Founders, Jefferson did in fact bring slaves into France where it was prohibited. Finkelman describes the secret contract Jefferson used to get around French law. Further, there is wide discussion in history articles and books about the contradiction in the praiseworthy notion that "All men are created equal" and the fact that the man who penned those noble words explicitly excluded black people from the concept. Jefferson is justly remembered for these words more than any others, and he is known throughout the world for writing them. Why is it that the central contradiction of his life is not discussed here? (I notice, with concern, that in the history of the Wikipedia article on those very words http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=All_men_are_created_equal&oldid=48586755 that JW1805 removed discussion of this contradiction from that article. This appears as axe grinding-- the intentional removal of a valid viewpoint that needs to be addressed for the common good. This idea should not be suppressed either from this article or from All men are created equal. It is a mark of the maturity of this enclyclopedia when this common history can be discussed frankly. At the moment, this subject is treated badly. Skywriter 09:17, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Skywriter 09:17, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
-- JW1805 (Talk) 18:57, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
re: JW1805's "everybody did it defense"
Everyone in Virginia did that. Many Europeans did this.
1. Everyone did not keep hundreds of slaves. Only a very small percentage of the populaton did.
2. Slavery was specifically banned in France, and Jefferson illegally brought slaves into France. Finkelman documents this. Read the book. Skywriter 19:23, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
re: JW1805 wrote: I am not familer with this Finkelman person.
Another quote added from John Hope Franklin: In 1803, President Jefferson signed into law a bill that specifically excluded blacks from carrying the United States mail. Historian John Hope Franklin called the signing "a gratuitous expression of distrust of free Negroes who had done nothing to merit it." Can sombody provide some context for this? Does this really belong in the Jefferson article? The implication seems to be that Jefferson personally conceived and executed a plan to exclude blacks from the post office. Is that true? Or was this just a bill that had a lot of items in it, and that just happened to be one of then? At that time, President's didn't use the veto very often. So, I'm not sure blaming Jefferson for this is really accurate. -- JW1805 (Talk) 18:44, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
United States presidents are responsible for the bills they sign. Do you want to argue he did not know what he was signing? If so, please provide evidence of that. The evidence that we have is that he was brilliant, and not prone to signing documents that did not reveal his intent.
Do you want to argue that if Jefferson or any U.S. president had signed a bill excluding all members of any other ethnic or racial group from working in the United States Post Office, that this would not be a subject to include in his bio, please make that argument, and support it with sources. Skywriter 19:19, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The amount of vandalism from anons that this pages sees is amazing. It seems like every other edit is anon vandalism. I've added this article to Wikipedia:Most vandalized pages. Should we try to get this page protected from anon edits? -- JW1805 (Talk) 02:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Although Jefferson is known for purchasing Louisiana Territory, couldn't any president have bought it? considering Napoleon only wanted to sell it to America, not specifically Jefferson. Jefferson just happened to be there at the right time. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.248.78.183 ( talk • contribs) .
There seems to be an issue with deleting "and was the precursor to today's Democratic Party" in the second paragraph in reference to the Democratic-Republican Party. This statement is not in the correct context to make in this article. The correct context is presented in the Democratic-Republican Party article. What it says is the first national political party convention was held in 1832, and Jackson and Van Buren still styled their party "The Republican Party"; the name "Democratic Party" was adopted in the mid 1830s. This was the beginning of the modern-day Democratic Party. Note that it did not say "today's" democratic party - it was the "beginning" of the modern-day party. The article continues to state the Democratic Party was often called "the party of Jefferson"; whereas the Republican Party, was called "the party of Lincoln," by its members which was true until 1932 when the roles began to reverse into the modern party formation that exists today. So if we wanted to actually say "today's" party, it would be the Republican party as the roles reversed after 1932.
Why is it important to include this information in the second paragraph of the Jefferson article? If people want to read the development of the party they can read the party article which puts it in the correct political context. Personally, I don't believe either party represents the philosophy of Jefferson. I would say that he would probably be a libertarian if we looked at today's parties. To say that the Jefferson Party was the precursor to today's Democratic party gives the wrong perception. The political philosophy of Jefferson is very different. Morphh 01:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Were any laws made under the presidenticy(sorry for my infamously poor spelling) of John Adams ruled unconstitutional? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.5.32.202 ( talk • contribs) .
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
According to the lisp article, Thomas Jefferson spoke with a lisp. Should this be added to the trivia section? Rmpfu89 20:42, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Moved from my talk page:
==Thomas Jefferson== Hey, I saw that you reverted my removal of the following text to the Thomas Jefferson article without explanation:
This wikipedia text claims that D. James Kenedy calls Jefferson "a true friend of the Christian faith" because baptists supported his efforts to disestablish the church(something not mentioned at all in the sited article). A look at the source sited shows that D. James Kennedy (a presbyterian) called Jefferson "a true friend of the Christian church" because he thinks believe Jefferson DIDN'T support seperation of church and state. Thus, a claim is made in the wikipedia article which is contradicted by the very article it sites. Shadowoftime 22:08, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I reverted without explanation because you deleted without explanation. Now that you've explained, I will undo my revert, if you haven't beaten me to it already. Simple. Alienus 01:24, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
see topic. ( Stevenwagner 02:00, 18 April 2006 (UTC)).
Not only do we not have an article on this, it isn't even mentioned in the text of the article! This is pretty shameful. john k 02:38, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Good start! john k 17:22, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I really don't think that the slave/paternity controversy merits a mention in the intro. The paragraph is about Jefferson's important political philosophies and government positions. It seems very out of place there, and the subject has due coverage in the slavery section of the article, and in the Sally Hemings article. -- Jon Stockton 06:32, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
It seems very odd to be reading about his death before his life? Does anyone object to moving his death nearer to the ending? Skywriter 23:17, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
in the part about religion it is stated:
"Jefferson used deist terminology in repeatedly stating his belief in a creator, and in the United States Declaration of Independence used the terms "Creator", "Nature's God", and "Divine Providence"."
however the term "Divine Providence" in the Declaration of Independence is not from the version written by Jefferson, but was added later by the convention, in other words, obviously Franklin or Adams.
-Juha Uski
No-one is going to add into this little document that the only reason Thomas Jefferson was elected was because of the 3/5ths compromise? No one is going to mention that he was elected because slaves were 3/5ths of a vote, and he was the southern candidate? NO-ONE will mention the fact that without the 3/5ths compromise theres no way he would've been president?
What kind of ridiculous crap is this? 69.181.56.152Sajun777
User JW1805 and others have summarily removed comment by former American Historical Association President John Hope Franklin from this page several times, without discussion on this page, so far. In the last revert, User JW1805 claimed the historian's comments were "speculative." In reply, I would ask, what are the other comments in that section?
This is factual, not speculative, and it adds a perspective different from the commission. Mayer's opinion has been removed as his opinion is represented in the report of the scholar's commission, which I have linked to directly. The following is new and is not elsewhere represented.
Franklin said it does not matter "whether he slept with her or not. He could have. After all, he owned her. She was subject to his exploitation in every conceivable way. ... But, you see, it's not the important subject, it seems to me...."
Why would you want to suppress that viewpoint? Skywriter 23:21, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
This article fails utterly to integrate the contradictions of Jefferson's lifestyle of being a major slave owner with his commendable philosophy for which we are eternally grateful. Nuance and contradiction ought not be thrown out the window. They must be addressed.
Further, there is an apparent difference of opinion on the placement of the discussion of slavery near the end of the article rather than placing it higher up and certainly before Jefferson's death. I have previously questioned the placement of the section on his death above discussion of his life and no one has replied to that comment, either defending its placement or otherwise. That constitutes the other unresolved controversy. I will leave this note here this weekend to await comment before placing the POV flag on this article. I of course welcome comment. Skywriter 21:18, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
This is probed, using primary sources, in the discussion by the legal scholar Paul Finkelman, cited at the bottom of the article. Slavery and the Founders: Race and Liberty in the Age of Jefferson (2001) Ben Franklin, e.g. had owned slaves but eventually morphed into an abolitionist. The short story, as Finkelman documents, it is that Washington freed his slaves upon his wife's death, but Jefferson did not free his slaves upon his own death because he loved the good life and spent more than his plantation slaves earned in profits during Jefferson's lifetime. His debts were such that the bondage of all but three or four of his several hundred slaves continued after his death to pay off his debts. He freed several in Sally's family but not Sally. Finkelman compares Jefferson's practices as a slave owner with his contemporaries in Virginia, and that is worth the price of the book. He also details how Jefferson made a special deal with Sally Hemming's brother. Bringing slaves into France was prohibited, particularly during the Enlightenment. Jefferson did not want to risk breaking French law. He loved France and the Enlightenment and wanted to be thought well of there. The contradiction is he also loved luxury and being waited upon. The substance of the signed contract with Sally's brother was-- come with me to France, wait on me, and cook for me. When we return in five years, you will be free. The man was freed in Philadelphia upon their return to the states. Skywriter 22:20, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Oh yes, we do feel his pain. And that's saying nothing of how you'd feel as one of Jefferson's slaves. House or yard? What's your preference? Skywriter 02:12, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Single out? This is a biographical article of Thomas Jefferson. It should accurately reflect who he was in all major aspects, the complexity of his being, not cherry-pick those parts of his biography that are appealing, or make him look good. Most astounding is that this article does not reflect the duality of who he was. Many scholars have discussed that his words "All men are created equal" did not apply to people of African heritage, yet this is nowhere on the radar here. As Finkelman, the constitutional scholar and expert on slavery, and others have shown, the Declaration of Independence and U.S. Constitution ensured the continuation of slavery. Jefferson was the major writer. The contradiction, the elephant in the living room of American history, is ignored in this article in favor of hagiography on a subject of racism that continues to trouble the United States to this day. Skywriter 15:09, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
...due to previously discussed aggressive suppresion of a viewpoint. The section on slavery is hagiography and does not come close to examining the subject in a non-adoring fashion. I welcome discussion but will not support suppression of differing viewpoints. Skywriter 01:36, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I do not really care if the template appears or not, though it does uglify the page - I'd like to see it on more articles. Just what do want to change that is not there, other than move it up? -- JimWae 02:24, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
JW1805, thank you for responding on the Talk page. The tags were affixed to reflect the latest of the several unexplained reversions. Would you explain in more detail your objections to the historian's observations introducing a valid viewpoint. "Ridiculous" does not apply. Skywriter 22:14, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
If that is your sole objection, delete that phrase and reinstate the remainder. Thanks. Skywriter 03:58, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Could we please extend this to a conversation - rather than a dialogue? -- JimWae 04:12, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Everyone can contribute, JimWae. Skywriter 18:05, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
The Declaration of Independence was not a personal document. Jefferson was not bargaining with SC & GA. Only the Congress could adopt it in its final form. -- JimWae 05:06, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
NOTE JW1805 quikcly replied a tad over-enthusiastically in interlinear fashion that tends to mute the intent and substance of my earlier post, and destroying the separate arguments of what I said vs what JW1805 said. My earlier post is therefore reposted here for the purpose of remaining intact for future readers of this archive.
In response to the comment by JW1805 (above), last night's revision, and in support of why this article is totally disputed is the following.
I have contributed to the page, beginning months ago, with the addition of Finkelman (Slavery and the Founders in the Age of Jefferson) a spot-on resource, and I added a primary source: Edwin Morris Betts (editor), Thomas Jefferson's Farm Book (1953) (upon which Finkelman bases part of his salient analyses, together with the other key primary resource on slavery and TJ's faux-scientific racism, Notes on the State of Virginia.)
As editor of the 20-volume encyclopedia on slavery and numerous books on the subject, Finkelman, a legal scholar is not to be ignored. What he has to say about TJ should be summarized in this article.
I added the section with John Hope Franklin's views on why the paternity in the matter of Sally Heming's children does not matter. His is a viewpoint distinctly different from what is presented, a relevant, incisive perspective, yet it was, and continues to be rejected outright in several reversions, prompting the dispute tags. I offered a compromise, as requested (above, in this thread), and it was not accepted.
The material on what did not go into the Declaration is not nearly as important as say, Ira Berlin writing of 1778 in Many Thousands Gone: The First Two Centuries of Slavery in North America (Belnap Press: 1998) pp 231-232 -- "The wartime erosion of slavery encouraged direct assaults against the institution itself. The heady notions of universal human equality that justified American independence gave black people a powerful weapon with which to attack chattel bondage, and they understood that this was no time to be quiet... Black people throughout the North made themselves heard...denounced the double standard that allowed white Americans to fight for freedom while denying that right to blacks.... Success bred success. Black people who gained their freedom by legislative enactment, individual manumission, and successful flight pressed all the harder for universal emancipation, demanding first the release of their families and friends, and than all black people still in bondage.... Such actions could not be ignored easily by those who marched under the banner of Jefferson's declaration."
The material in the book with the title that mocks both black people and Thomas Jefferson ( Negro President) is hardly as cogent as Berlin (above) or Finkelman in getting to the point.
The addition of one sentence by Abrose, who did not study Jefferson on racism and slavery in depth, is palliative in that it fails to explore the contradiction between the noble phrase "all men are created equal" and the reality that as he wrote it, one fifth were not, and even not free on his own plantation, an economic situation from which he personally profited.
Here are some resources that could be incorporated into this article to make it less hagiography. The central problem with this Wikipedia article (and not just on the stepchild section on slavery) is that it does not give the subject credit for complexity, and it ignores historians who point to the contradictions between the powerful words "all men are created equal" and the wink and the nod that implied "except black men and women."
http://www.pbs.org/jefferson/archives/interviews/frame.htm Particularly the views of the two historians who have done the most work in the area of Jefferson and slavery: John Hope Franklin | Historian Paul Finkelman | Historian
Why is what Finkelman says about Jefferson and slavery important? http://www.law.utulsa.edu/faculty_staff/pfinkelman/vita2006
Why is Jefferson's words and deeds on slavery and black people the second to the last item on this Wikipedia page, with only monuments and trivia following? http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/modules/slavery/ "Slavery has often been treated as a marginal aspect of history, confined to courses on southern or African American history. In fact, slavery played a crucial role in the making of the modern world. Slavery provided the labor force for the Slavery played an indispensable role in the settlement and development of the New World." Jefferson's opinions on blacks (laid out in copious detail in Notes on the State of Virginia) should be summarized within the main body of this article and not thrown in at the end of this article as an afterthought.
Why? Because his views about black people and segregation were influential in affecting the course of U.S. history. On that point, both the left and the right agree: http://www.vahistorical.org/publications/abstract_parkinson.htm
Why are the words of John Hope Franklin on the Heming's controversy excluded from this Wikipedia article? Likely for the same reason another historian points out here:
"I'm not saying that all these people are racist and that they hate blacks," she added. "No. I think that the response to this story is the legacy of slavery. This is absolutely the way people have been taught to think whether they consciously know it or not, of devaluing black people's words when they are inconvenient." [Looking Beyond Jefferson the Icon to a Man and His Slave Mistress NYT, June 28, 1997 By Daryl Royster Alexander]
What is another viewpoint other than the claim (incorporated into this Wikipedia article last night) that Jefferson meant well with an early draft of the Declaration? In a review of three books published in the Washington Post, Kahlenberg says the following of Africans In America: America's Journey Through Slavery by Charles Johnson, Patricia Smith and the WGBH Series Research Team Harcourt Brace. 494 pp.
Captives of History By Richard D. Kahlenberg Sunday, November 8, 1998; Page X01, WP
"One inescapable theme is the great contradiction in the nation's founding, which was grounded in liberty but coupled with the enslavement of a fifth of the population. At the time of the Revolution, the Americans fought for freedom, but it was the British who promised to liberate any slaves who joined their side. The nation's patriarch, George Washington, began owning slaves at age 11. Thomas Jefferson appropriately denounced the British for their role in the slave trade in an initial draft of the Declaration of Independence, but was forced to delete the clause under the weight of the obvious contradiction."
If you require more discussion or disagree with the foregoing, I will be happy to reply. Skywriter 14:34, 20 May 2006 (UTC) End of Repost for Purpose of Clarity in Argument
<beginning of JW1805 interlinear reply to the notes above
In response to the comment by JW1805 (above), last night's revision, and in support of why this article is totally disputed is the following.
I have contributed to the page, beginning months ago, with the addition of Finkelman (Slavery and the Founders in the Age of Jefferson) a spot-on resource, and I added a primary source: Edwin Morris Betts (editor), Thomas Jefferson's Farm Book (1953) (upon which Finkelman bases part of his salient analyses, together with the other key primary resource on slavery and TJ's faux-scientific racism, Notes on the State of Virginia.)
As editor of the 20-volume encyclopedia on slavery and numerous books on the subject, Finkelman, a legal scholar is not to be ignored. What he has to say about TJ should be summarized in this article.
I added the section with John Hope Franklin's views on why the paternity in the matter of Sally Heming's children does not matter. His is a viewpoint distinctly different from what is presented, a relevant, incisive perspective, yet it was, and continues to be rejected outright in several reversions, prompting the dispute tags. I offered a compromise, as requested (above, in this thread), and it was not accepted.
The material on what did not go into the Declaration is not nearly as important as say, Ira Berlin writing of 1778 in Many Thousands Gone: The First Two Centuries of Slavery in North America (Belnap Press: 1998) pp 231-232 -- "The wartime erosion of slavery encouraged direct assaults against the institution itself. The heady notions of universal human equality that justified American independence gave black people a powerful weapon with which to attack chattel bondage, and they understood that this was no time to be quiet... Black people throughout the North made themselves heard...denounced the double standard that allowed white Americans to fight for freedom while denying that right to blacks.... Success bred success. Black people who gained their freedom by legislative enactment, individual manumission, and successful flight pressed all the harder for universal emancipation, demanding first the release of their families and friends, and than all black people still in bondage.... Such actions could not be ignored easily by those who marched under the banner of Jefferson's declaration."
The material in the book with the title that mocks both black people and Thomas Jefferson ( Negro President) is hardly as cogent as Berlin (above) or Finkelman in getting to the point.
The addition of one sentence by Abrose, who did not study Jefferson on racism and slavery in depth, is palliative in that it fails to explore the contradiction between the noble phrase "all men are created equal" and the reality that as he wrote it, one fifth were not, and even not free on his own plantation, an economic situation from which he personally profited.
Here are some resources that could be incorporated into this article to make it less hagiography. The central problem with this Wikipedia article (and not just on the stepchild section on slavery) is that it does not give the subject credit for complexity, and it ignores historians who point to the contradictions between the powerful words "all men are created equal" and the wink and the nod that implied "except black men and women."
http://www.pbs.org/jefferson/archives/interviews/frame.htm Particularly the views of the two historians who have done the most work in the area of Jefferson and slavery: John Hope Franklin | Historian Paul Finkelman | Historian
Why is what Finkelman says about Jefferson and slavery important? http://www.law.utulsa.edu/faculty_staff/pfinkelman/vita2006
Why is Jefferson's words and deeds on slavery and black people the second to the last item on this Wikipedia page, with only monuments and trivia following? http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/modules/slavery/ "Slavery has often been treated as a marginal aspect of history, confined to courses on southern or African American history. In fact, slavery played a crucial role in the making of the modern world. Slavery provided the labor force for the Slavery played an indispensable role in the settlement and development of the New World." Jefferson's opinions on blacks (laid out in copious detail in Notes on the State of Virginia) should be summarized within the main body of this article and not thrown in at the end of this article as an afterthought.
Why? Because his views about black people and segregation were influential in affecting the course of U.S. history. On that point, both the left and the right agree: http://www.vahistorical.org/publications/abstract_parkinson.htm
Why are the words of John Hope Franklin on the Heming's controversy excluded from this Wikipedia article? Likely for the same reason another historian points out here:
"I'm not saying that all these people are racist and that they hate blacks," she added. "No. I think that the response to this story is the legacy of slavery. This is absolutely the way people have been taught to think whether they consciously know it or not, of devaluing black people's words when they are inconvenient." [Looking Beyond Jefferson the Icon to a Man and His Slave Mistress NYT, June 28, 1997 By Daryl Royster Alexander]
What is another viewpoint other than the claim (incorporated into this Wikipedia article last night) that Jefferson meant well with an early draft of the Declaration? In a review of three books published in the Washington Post, Kahlenberg says the following of Africans In America: America's Journey Through Slavery by Charles Johnson, Patricia Smith and the WGBH Series Research Team Harcourt Brace. 494 pp.
Captives of History By Richard D. Kahlenberg Sunday, November 8, 1998; Page X01, WP
"One inescapable theme is the great contradiction in the nation's founding, which was grounded in liberty but coupled with the enslavement of a fifth of the population. At the time of the Revolution, the Americans fought for freedom, but it was the British who promised to liberate any slaves who joined their side. The nation's patriarch, George Washington, began owning slaves at age 11. Thomas Jefferson appropriately denounced the British for their role in the slave trade in an initial draft of the Declaration of Independence, but was forced to delete the clause under the weight of the obvious contradiction."
If you require more discussion or disagree with the foregoing, I will be happy to reply. Skywriter 14:34, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
1) Callendar's claims have been conclusively disproved by DNA evidence. Jefferson is demonstrated not to have fathered any of H's kids at or before the time of Callendar's slanders.
2) The Thomas Jefferson Foundation's current position is far more ambiguous.
3) Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society's conclusion was not that the claim was "not persuasive" but tended much more to contradiction of it.
Very typical of the far-left slant of wikipedia. BulldogPete
How is concluding that someone fathered children "far left"? Right wing history denies such things does it? I can see them all now, leaping to the defence of Karl Marx against the calumny that he had a baby with his servant. Someone fathered those kids. It's no more left wing than it is right wing to conclude that it was Thomas rather than someone else. Paul B 11:13, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I thought the conclusion of the DNA research was that the father was LIKELY either TJ or his cousin/brother? - Further comment on this being that the brother/cousin was only occassionally a visitor to the plantation -- all suggestive & noetworthy but still inconclusive. -- JimWae 21:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Oh really? Which of Zinn's books are you referring to in which you found him to be critical of Jefferson? That would be genuinely newsworthy, if true. Skywriter 00:20, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
BulldogPete, did you intend for the 3-word comment above to be meaningful or simply a random placement of words that bear no relation to one another? Skywriter 20:52, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
The Sally Hemings controversy is such an emotional one for many people. I do not think that it should be a major part of a biography of Thomas Jefferson however. In 1998 when the DNA testing was performed there were five men that participated from the Woodson family. No one in this family had a match with the Jefferson Y chromosome. I think it is important to point this family out as an example of how this myth can go terribly wrong and hurt people. At the time the article came out the big news was a match between descendents of Eston Hemings and descendants of Field Jefferson. It was very compelling evidence indeed. Much overlooked at the time was that the test excluded all of Woodson's descendants and even showed a Y chromosome that neither matched a Woodson or a Jefferson and one man's DNA clearly indicated someone commited adultery somewhere in the past. In the seventies the magazine Ebony published stories about this African American family being the illegitimate descendants of a President and his slave concubine. Told as an uplifting story of overcoming hardship all while keeping an amazing secret. The story spawned books and a movie all portraying it as gospel. Years later we find out Woodson was the liar and at least one of his descendants was an adulterer. There is no proof. Contrary to what the Nature article claimed. Any DNA service will tell you that there is no way to prove paternity by this method. It is irresponsible to tell people they are descendants of Thomas Jefferson when they may not be. As a media form Wikipedia should use caution in this story. Welsh4ever76 02:02, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Welsh4ever76-- The source for your claims about Foster? Skywriter 22:25, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
http://www.oxfordancestors.com/faqs.htm#15 Can the Y-Clan™ or the Y-Line™ analysis prove paternity? No. Neither our Y-Clan™ nor our Y-Line™ services can prove paternity. If you want a test of this nature, then you should contact a company which specialises in paternity tests. However, both our Y-chromosome analysis services will show if two males are paternally unrelated. For example, if two brothers have totally different Y-Clan™ or Y-Line™ results, then they cannot have the same biological father. Please be aware of this possibility before requesting our Y-Clan™ or Y-Line™ service. A similar question to Family Tree DNA http://www.familytreedna.com/faq.html#q1.4 How is your test different from a paternity test? Family Tree DNA's primary test attempts to determine if 2 people thought to be unrelated actually had a common ancestor. Our specific purpose is to help recreate lost family links. Our test is for genealogy NOT for paternity, alimony or other legal purposes.
Thomas Jefferson was neither married to their mother nor said they were his children. Therefore the only way to prove paternity in modern times would be to have a sample from Thomas Jefferson and a sample from Eston Hemings. A descendant or relative will not do. After a sample is attained from both corpses then a test would be performed. A test can tell the difference between two brothers and then we could have PROOF. Eight weeks after releasing this story, Nature realized they made a mistake and issued a retraction, admitting, "The title assigned to our study was misleading." Because after proving that Jefferson had not fathered Woodson, it was revealed that their paternity conclusions about Jefferson fathering Eston were based on inaccurate and incomplete information, both scientifically and historically. Welsh4ever76 23:27, 27 May 2006 (UTC)welsh4ever76
Thank you for sharing your personal opinion, welsh4ever76. Of course it is disqualified because it is personal opinion. It is unverifiable and it is not sourced. I am sure it is a good theory in your view. However, the basis in agreement for the writing of Wikipedia articles is to avoid personal opinion and original research. So, I will ask the question again, will you cite proper sources for your allegations? If you can not, we can safely discard your claims in so far as reaching agreeemtn as to what should go in or stay out of this article. Skywriter 23:40, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
welsh4ever76, you have failed to source your claims, and have made a provably false claim. Nature did not retract the article. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/daily/may99/critics010699.htm Skywriter 00:06, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I just read it. It looks fine to me, and it is well sourced. It warns that it is "a subject of considerable controversy," it presents a reasonably mainstream view, and it links to two articles that present Sally Hemings and Jefferson DNA Data that go into great detail and present more references that the reader can follow up. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:09, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
The following links to the story as reported by the NYT's respected science writers (not Staples, the opinion columnist) but Nicholas Wade and Dinitia Smith.
November 1, 1998 DNA Tests Offer Evidence That Jefferson Fathered a Child With His Slave By Dinitia Smith and Nicholas Wade The New York Times "Science" November 1, 1998 http://web.mit.edu/racescience/in_media/thomas_jefferson/dna_tests_offer_evidence/index.html
For your further consideration, before it disappears into the paid archive. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/21/magazine/21uva.html
The central concerns with the recommendations of Welsh4ever76 is that he offers conjecture but nothing verifiable. This violates Wikipedia: verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research.
As the NYT story makes clear, the value of the research --that Welsh4ever76 disparages without benefit of citing sources to support his personal opinion,-- is that the chromosone study specifically, and for the first time ruled out the Woodson claims to TJ lineage, and specifically ruled in the probability that Eston Hemings is TJ's direct descendant. Discarding one part of this research while clinging to another part is not properly the purview of those who add items to this or any Wikipedia article. Our job is to cite or link to sources who support our POV, not spell out our POV without supporting research by knowledgable researchers who specialize in the area. This is not my personal opinion. It is Wikipedia policy. Skywriter 20:13, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
That NYT article says DNA tests rule out Woodson. The DNA tests do not rule out Hemmings - they are consistent with TJ being his father, but do not establish paternity. The findings mean that looking for other links between TJ & Hemmings is not wasting one's time, but would be for Woodson. Interpretation of our wikiarticle presently trades on the ambiguity of the word "valid" -- JimWae 20:26, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, can we put to rest the idea that the current article is "extremely biassed?" What I see at the moment is
A case can certainly be made that the present text needs some small additions or changes. People who think these changes are needed should propose the specific changes they'd like to make here. For example, if someone has a good source citation from a source meeting the WP:RS guidelines that says "Dr. Foster overstated his claims" that should be presented here, and we should discuss whether it is appropriate to include it in the article. Dpbsmith (talk) 10:37, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted changes by JW1805 for failure to discuss disputed changes on this Talk page while discussion is in progress.
I specifically dispute the truncating of and sidelining of the references to summary by Finkelman, a noted scholar on this subject, and replacement of his views with the expanded views of Ambrose, who has been in the news in recent years for plagiarism.
The fact and POV tag has been on this page for several weeks because the discussion of Jefferson and slavery is not fairly represented. It is hagiography with critical views excluded.
The placement of the section on slavery as an afterthought --at the end of the article-- is not warranted and this is also a point-of-view decision that is in dispute. Skywriter 14:54, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Once again, I say that you shouldn't be so sensitive when someone else edits your material, that is the nature of Wikipedia. Also, I would like to get the opinions of other editors besides Skywriter. Does anybody else think the article or this section is wildly POV? -- JW1805 (Talk) 16:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
JW1805 did not edit me. He edited Paul Finkelman, a subject matter expert, who presented a tight summary of facts. The effect of editing this legal scholar is to water down and remove pertinent facts. JW1805 previously edited John Hope Fanklin by deleting Franklin's view, based on JW1805's claim that his own personal point of view trumps comments by the historian, also a subject matter expert. JW1805 defended his deletions with the ill-considered (unpersuasive) argument that Franklin's view on the Hemings affair is "dumb." JW1805's unilateral actions precipitated the placement of tags on this page, and most recent activity suggests they are properly placed. The substance of the dispute has been ignored, and pertinent facts and informed viewpoints suppressed. JW1805 has an axe to grind. At the moment, his personal viewpoint dominates, to the detriment of the fairness in this article. Skywriter 13:25, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
The following deletion of facts from the legal scholar and subject matter expert Finkelman's summary is objectionable. "Jefferson made no effort to change the status of the three to four hundred other slaves he owned during the fifty years between the signing of Declaration and his death, on July 4, 1826." Skywriter 06:11, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I have no clue where to place this among this mess of an argument, so I'll place it here. This historian who goes by the name of Ambrose is clearly a moron. "Thomas Jefferson did not achieve greatness in his personal life. He had a slave as mistress. He lied about it." He didn't lie about it. How could he when he said nothing about it? As the section says, "Jefferson never responded publicly about this issue." I removed that particular Ambrose quote for obvious reasons. -- S. Parkhurst 22:14, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
It is instructive that JW1805 picks and chooses quotes from Ambrose, whom I objected to earlier. As everyone reading this must know, Ambrose was famously in the news, in the years before his death-- for plagiarism. JW1805 earlier chose to ignore that objection, and even after I removed Ambrose, he insisted on re-instating Abrose in this article. JW1805 replaced subject matter experts (Paul Finkelman and John Hope Franklin, both of whom have written extensively on this subject) with non-subject matter expert Ambrose who has had ethical issues. JW1805 chose the least revealing comments by Ambrose to replace factual summary by Finkelman. As long as JW1805 insists on including this non-subject matter expert in this article, it is fair to use the material from the same article that JW1805 quoted from, despite his claim above to the contrary, to fully reflect what Ambrose said, and not just the part of it that JW1805 likes. If JW1805 now rejects what his own source said, why did he bring that source and that web page into this article to begin with? If Ambrose is wrong about some facts, why is he in this article at all, and why are we referencing to that article? This is an example of selectively using a source to press personal viewpoint. Skywriter 06:04, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The central fact is that Thomas Jefferson had a tremendous impact on the lives of hundreds of people who served his family and whom he held in bondage their entire lives, and even after his own death. His influence impacted millions of black people who were held as slaves throughout the United States. This is not trivial. Those facts should be integrated into this article and not treated as an afterthought as they are now. The history of Jefferson's views on African Americans and on slavery are played down, and even ignored for the most part in this article, and left to the end of the article. For example, one "most important" fact of the Jefferson presidency was the Louisiana Purchase. The article as it now stands calls it "most important." Jefferson had the choice of permitting or prohibiting slavery in the vast new territory, and chose to promote slavery in the then new western region of the United States. This article is flawed because it specifically excludes that discussion. It is omission that contributes to the St. Thomas factor in this article, instead of an honest assessment of an important man's life. Skywriter 06:04, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The quote from Bacon is pure speculation, is based on nothing factual, and should be removed. It was in fact removed, and then reverted, thus giving further cause for this article being tagged as reflective of the St. Thomas Jefferson viewpoint to the exclusion of factual analyses by scholars who have studied his life and contributions, the good with the bad. Skywriter 06:04, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The following user at the time shown removed the disputed tag, without discussion: 05:16, 30 May 2006 71.139.182.34. This anonymous user, with a history of jacking in only to remove evidence that there is a dispute about how Jefferson's views on slavery and black people are portrayed in this article, is reversed for cause. Skywriter 08:32, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Under Interests and activities, would someone explain why there is no discussion of how Jefferson lived as the bon vivant only because he exploited hundreds of black people whom he kept in slavery? Why is there no connection between the fact that black people were sold after his death to pay off his debts and the following, which is stated so cheerily, as if there were no cause and effect, and no consequence to his actions?
"Jefferson was an avid wine lover and noted gourmet. During his years in France (1784-1789) he took extensive trips through French and other European wine regions and sent the best back home."
And, as Finkleman points out in Slavery and the Founders, Jefferson did in fact bring slaves into France where it was prohibited. Finkelman describes the secret contract Jefferson used to get around French law. Further, there is wide discussion in history articles and books about the contradiction in the praiseworthy notion that "All men are created equal" and the fact that the man who penned those noble words explicitly excluded black people from the concept. Jefferson is justly remembered for these words more than any others, and he is known throughout the world for writing them. Why is it that the central contradiction of his life is not discussed here? (I notice, with concern, that in the history of the Wikipedia article on those very words http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=All_men_are_created_equal&oldid=48586755 that JW1805 removed discussion of this contradiction from that article. This appears as axe grinding-- the intentional removal of a valid viewpoint that needs to be addressed for the common good. This idea should not be suppressed either from this article or from All men are created equal. It is a mark of the maturity of this enclyclopedia when this common history can be discussed frankly. At the moment, this subject is treated badly. Skywriter 09:17, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Skywriter 09:17, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
-- JW1805 (Talk) 18:57, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
re: JW1805's "everybody did it defense"
Everyone in Virginia did that. Many Europeans did this.
1. Everyone did not keep hundreds of slaves. Only a very small percentage of the populaton did.
2. Slavery was specifically banned in France, and Jefferson illegally brought slaves into France. Finkelman documents this. Read the book. Skywriter 19:23, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
re: JW1805 wrote: I am not familer with this Finkelman person.
Another quote added from John Hope Franklin: In 1803, President Jefferson signed into law a bill that specifically excluded blacks from carrying the United States mail. Historian John Hope Franklin called the signing "a gratuitous expression of distrust of free Negroes who had done nothing to merit it." Can sombody provide some context for this? Does this really belong in the Jefferson article? The implication seems to be that Jefferson personally conceived and executed a plan to exclude blacks from the post office. Is that true? Or was this just a bill that had a lot of items in it, and that just happened to be one of then? At that time, President's didn't use the veto very often. So, I'm not sure blaming Jefferson for this is really accurate. -- JW1805 (Talk) 18:44, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
United States presidents are responsible for the bills they sign. Do you want to argue he did not know what he was signing? If so, please provide evidence of that. The evidence that we have is that he was brilliant, and not prone to signing documents that did not reveal his intent.
Do you want to argue that if Jefferson or any U.S. president had signed a bill excluding all members of any other ethnic or racial group from working in the United States Post Office, that this would not be a subject to include in his bio, please make that argument, and support it with sources. Skywriter 19:19, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The amount of vandalism from anons that this pages sees is amazing. It seems like every other edit is anon vandalism. I've added this article to Wikipedia:Most vandalized pages. Should we try to get this page protected from anon edits? -- JW1805 (Talk) 02:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Although Jefferson is known for purchasing Louisiana Territory, couldn't any president have bought it? considering Napoleon only wanted to sell it to America, not specifically Jefferson. Jefferson just happened to be there at the right time. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.248.78.183 ( talk • contribs) .
There seems to be an issue with deleting "and was the precursor to today's Democratic Party" in the second paragraph in reference to the Democratic-Republican Party. This statement is not in the correct context to make in this article. The correct context is presented in the Democratic-Republican Party article. What it says is the first national political party convention was held in 1832, and Jackson and Van Buren still styled their party "The Republican Party"; the name "Democratic Party" was adopted in the mid 1830s. This was the beginning of the modern-day Democratic Party. Note that it did not say "today's" democratic party - it was the "beginning" of the modern-day party. The article continues to state the Democratic Party was often called "the party of Jefferson"; whereas the Republican Party, was called "the party of Lincoln," by its members which was true until 1932 when the roles began to reverse into the modern party formation that exists today. So if we wanted to actually say "today's" party, it would be the Republican party as the roles reversed after 1932.
Why is it important to include this information in the second paragraph of the Jefferson article? If people want to read the development of the party they can read the party article which puts it in the correct political context. Personally, I don't believe either party represents the philosophy of Jefferson. I would say that he would probably be a libertarian if we looked at today's parties. To say that the Jefferson Party was the precursor to today's Democratic party gives the wrong perception. The political philosophy of Jefferson is very different. Morphh 01:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Were any laws made under the presidenticy(sorry for my infamously poor spelling) of John Adams ruled unconstitutional? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.5.32.202 ( talk • contribs) .