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"He later left the church over a dispute involving cream"? Please explain. [[User:Meelar| Meelar (talk)]] 02:09, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)
Please see the paragraph about his wife's dispute over cream. I also removed the following until I can draft out both cause and effect.
WBardin --- This is very good work, it's wonderful to have see all of these bios filled out. It was a real gap to be missing (or to just have stubs) for important people like Hyrum Smith, David W. Patten and Thomas B. Marsh. Overall it's very good, but I do have a couple of problems with some of the details. (1) This cream story is just Mormon folklore; Utah leaders told this yarn long after the fact and there is no contemporary basis for it. Marsh explained very clearly at the time why he left the Saints. He left because he opposed the radical measures depriving the dissenters of the rights and property, he believed that Smith and Rigdon had overracted to the non-Mormon threat, and he was bitterly opposed to the fact that the Mormon militia had burned and looted the homes of non-Mormons in Daviess County. Those serious reasons make the later story of a petty quarrel absurd. (2) Marsh's affadavit did not cause the Haun's Mill Massacre and the other events of the Mormon War. The actions of the Latter Day Saints (sacking Gallatin, attacking the state militia, etc.) which Marsh opposed were the root cause. Marsh's affadavits exascerbated the problem by seeming to confirm the Missourians' worst fears. (3) Also, this last part is just speculation on your part and mine, but I think it's highly unlikely that Marsh would have succeeded Smith if Marsh had remained President of the 12. There was no reason to imagine that the President of the 12 would succeed to the Presidency and Marsh doesn't seem like the same kind of ambitious man that Brigham Young was to cause such an unexpected precedent. However, it surely is true that if Marsh had remained President of the 12 he would have prevented Brigham Young from becoming President of the Church. --
John Hamer 06:30, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I've made the changes to the "Falling Away" section. Marsh's contemporary statement, the timing of his apostacy, and a host of contemporary testimony back up the view that he left the church over the burning and looting of Daviess County. This milk cow story may be good sermon material, but it is not backed up by any contemporary account --- or, indeed, any other account. Lacking additional evidence, historians have rejected the later tale in favor of the contemporary accounts. For the standard treatment, see Stephen C., LeSueur, The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri, University of Missouri Press, 1990, pp. 134-137. -- John Hamer 16:59, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Marsh wrote his own Autobiography in 1864. I would suggest consulting it for more information on the milk incident. Thank you. User: TingYi 11:17, 21 Oct 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.2.73.81 ( talk)
The article states: "Years later, in 1864, George A. Smith claimed in a sermon that Marsh..."
The date of George A. Smith's sermon about the milk and cream was 1856, not 1864.
The Leaven of the Gospel, Etc. Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, pp. 280-291, 4/6/1856 [1].
Index of George A. Smiths discourses is at [2]. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.20.160.251 ( talk) 05:03, 29 January 2007 (UTC).
To all...As for the "Modern Opinion" this section should not be included, putting the silly disclaimer on it does not change the fact the "Modern Opinion" is entirely unsupportable and as a matter of fact someones personal non-authoritative opinipn. Any Mormon male "could be" the Prophet of the Mormon Church some day. Also IF and that's a VERY BIG IF, Mormons do hold the opinion supposedly expressed in the "Modern Opinion" section, then there is a reliable source to cite; some credible source to refer....otherwise for the sake of Wikipedia's integrity keep personal opinions elsewhere. Lastly please update yourselves on Wiki verifiable requirement for content. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rtdem ( talk • contribs) 05:55, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
It appears WBardin created the modern opinion section as such it is then the creators responsibility to submit the sources. There is no source to be cited concerning the Modern Opinion. And by it very name it is just an opinion - more succinctly it appears to be the personal opinion of WBardin. The section can not be supported. The modern opinion section only serves to discredit Wikipedia. Please update yourselves on the guidelines and policies concerning content.( Rtdem ( talk) 19:28, 1 September 2009 (UTC))
In regard to: Marsh's conversion story is occasionally cited as an example of how powerful the Book of Mormon can be in convincing people of the truthfulness of the Church. A quick search found the following reference: William G. Hartley, Ensign, September 1978, who cites “History of Thos. Baldwin Marsh,” Deseret News, 24 Mar. 1858.
As for: When his apostasy is mentioned, he is often referred to either as an example of pride or as an example of one who failed to fulfill his calling to serve the Church. Supporting references from Ensign talks are easy to come by, i.e. Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign, May 1984; Dale S. Cox, Ensign, January 1993; Henry B. Eyring, Ensign, June 2008; and David Z. Bednar, Ensign, November 2006. Also found some mention in a quick look at Gospel Doctrine Manuals.
As this section addresses how Marsh's experience is used in modern LDS teaching, I would assert that these would be good references. However, Ensign material is often disputed as being to LDS pov by other editors. Opinion? WBardwin ( talk) 00:17, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
More material:
WBardwin ( talk) 07:39, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
There is an image claiming to be Marsh at OliverCowdery.com -- The Premier Web-Site for Early Mormon History. I have my doubts are the LDS Church History people have never claimed to have an image of Marsh, something they would want. What do you all think? Is it Marsh?--- ARTEST4ECHO ( talk) 14:44, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
I can't see any verifiable source for the quotes from and references to 'Document p.57.' Oops. Sorry. Found it in the references. But the link to the complete text is broken. Jenglish02 ( talk) 06:06, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
The recent reworking of the "milk and strippings" section is, IMO, a clear example of WP:SYNTH. It draws multiple conclusions ("it is highly probable that the real cause...", "...would indicate a disaffection...", "...may account for...") are novel conclusions not found in any of the cited sources. Since the cited primary sources only give (A) the date of his leaving the church and (B) the day of the Gallatin attack, any further conclusions like (C) why he left the church is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article. Now there very well may be a reliable source out there that connects those dots, but my admittedly cursory search didn't turn anything up. @ Thewholetruthnothingbut: Please get consensus here on the talk page before reinserting that edit. -- FyzixFighter ( talk) 04:30, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
Which one is it? I can take a look and try. Sometimes the code for the notes themselves is in the body of the article, so you would have to edit the section where the note is found to alter the note's text. -- FyzixFighter ( talk) 15:29, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
I wanted to start a new section here so the discussion in the "milk and strippings" section above can stay focused around that subject. Here's how I understand this issue: Thomas B. Marsh left/withdrew/disassociated himself from the church in the fall of 1838. From primary sources this is clearly seen in the 1838 affidavit. He was excommunicated in absentia in 1839. The question as I see it (correct me if I'm wrong) is what year do we use for the end of his term as member and as president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles? Certainly he was no longer a member of the quorum once he was excommunicated, but what about the time between the affidavit and the excommunication? I can see arguments for both possibilities, and it's not clear to me which would be correct. For example, if he had changed his mind after the affidavit but before the excommunication and came back to the church, would he still have retained his membership or position in the quorum or not? On the other hand, he left pretty definitively in 1838, swore out the affidavit against Smith and the church, and didn't come back for ~19 years. That's not simply going inactive, to use modern vernacular. My problem is that for me to make either argument, I have to engage in some extrapolation from the primary sources, which we aren't supposed to do as WP editors. IMO, the best way to clear this up would be a secondary source that either says something like "Marsh was in the quorum until 1838/1839" or, better yet, discusses this exact question. That's where I'm coming from on this question. Did I miss anything in the summary of the question? Does anyone have a secondary source that would help? -- FyzixFighter ( talk) 06:46, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Thomas B. Marsh article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The
Wikimedia Foundation's
Terms of Use require that editors disclose their "employer, client, and affiliation" with respect to any paid contribution; see
WP:PAID. For advice about reviewing paid contributions, see
WP:COIRESPONSE.
|
"He later left the church over a dispute involving cream"? Please explain. [[User:Meelar| Meelar (talk)]] 02:09, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)
Please see the paragraph about his wife's dispute over cream. I also removed the following until I can draft out both cause and effect.
WBardin --- This is very good work, it's wonderful to have see all of these bios filled out. It was a real gap to be missing (or to just have stubs) for important people like Hyrum Smith, David W. Patten and Thomas B. Marsh. Overall it's very good, but I do have a couple of problems with some of the details. (1) This cream story is just Mormon folklore; Utah leaders told this yarn long after the fact and there is no contemporary basis for it. Marsh explained very clearly at the time why he left the Saints. He left because he opposed the radical measures depriving the dissenters of the rights and property, he believed that Smith and Rigdon had overracted to the non-Mormon threat, and he was bitterly opposed to the fact that the Mormon militia had burned and looted the homes of non-Mormons in Daviess County. Those serious reasons make the later story of a petty quarrel absurd. (2) Marsh's affadavit did not cause the Haun's Mill Massacre and the other events of the Mormon War. The actions of the Latter Day Saints (sacking Gallatin, attacking the state militia, etc.) which Marsh opposed were the root cause. Marsh's affadavits exascerbated the problem by seeming to confirm the Missourians' worst fears. (3) Also, this last part is just speculation on your part and mine, but I think it's highly unlikely that Marsh would have succeeded Smith if Marsh had remained President of the 12. There was no reason to imagine that the President of the 12 would succeed to the Presidency and Marsh doesn't seem like the same kind of ambitious man that Brigham Young was to cause such an unexpected precedent. However, it surely is true that if Marsh had remained President of the 12 he would have prevented Brigham Young from becoming President of the Church. --
John Hamer 06:30, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I've made the changes to the "Falling Away" section. Marsh's contemporary statement, the timing of his apostacy, and a host of contemporary testimony back up the view that he left the church over the burning and looting of Daviess County. This milk cow story may be good sermon material, but it is not backed up by any contemporary account --- or, indeed, any other account. Lacking additional evidence, historians have rejected the later tale in favor of the contemporary accounts. For the standard treatment, see Stephen C., LeSueur, The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri, University of Missouri Press, 1990, pp. 134-137. -- John Hamer 16:59, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Marsh wrote his own Autobiography in 1864. I would suggest consulting it for more information on the milk incident. Thank you. User: TingYi 11:17, 21 Oct 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.2.73.81 ( talk)
The article states: "Years later, in 1864, George A. Smith claimed in a sermon that Marsh..."
The date of George A. Smith's sermon about the milk and cream was 1856, not 1864.
The Leaven of the Gospel, Etc. Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, pp. 280-291, 4/6/1856 [1].
Index of George A. Smiths discourses is at [2]. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.20.160.251 ( talk) 05:03, 29 January 2007 (UTC).
To all...As for the "Modern Opinion" this section should not be included, putting the silly disclaimer on it does not change the fact the "Modern Opinion" is entirely unsupportable and as a matter of fact someones personal non-authoritative opinipn. Any Mormon male "could be" the Prophet of the Mormon Church some day. Also IF and that's a VERY BIG IF, Mormons do hold the opinion supposedly expressed in the "Modern Opinion" section, then there is a reliable source to cite; some credible source to refer....otherwise for the sake of Wikipedia's integrity keep personal opinions elsewhere. Lastly please update yourselves on Wiki verifiable requirement for content. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rtdem ( talk • contribs) 05:55, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
It appears WBardin created the modern opinion section as such it is then the creators responsibility to submit the sources. There is no source to be cited concerning the Modern Opinion. And by it very name it is just an opinion - more succinctly it appears to be the personal opinion of WBardin. The section can not be supported. The modern opinion section only serves to discredit Wikipedia. Please update yourselves on the guidelines and policies concerning content.( Rtdem ( talk) 19:28, 1 September 2009 (UTC))
In regard to: Marsh's conversion story is occasionally cited as an example of how powerful the Book of Mormon can be in convincing people of the truthfulness of the Church. A quick search found the following reference: William G. Hartley, Ensign, September 1978, who cites “History of Thos. Baldwin Marsh,” Deseret News, 24 Mar. 1858.
As for: When his apostasy is mentioned, he is often referred to either as an example of pride or as an example of one who failed to fulfill his calling to serve the Church. Supporting references from Ensign talks are easy to come by, i.e. Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign, May 1984; Dale S. Cox, Ensign, January 1993; Henry B. Eyring, Ensign, June 2008; and David Z. Bednar, Ensign, November 2006. Also found some mention in a quick look at Gospel Doctrine Manuals.
As this section addresses how Marsh's experience is used in modern LDS teaching, I would assert that these would be good references. However, Ensign material is often disputed as being to LDS pov by other editors. Opinion? WBardwin ( talk) 00:17, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
More material:
WBardwin ( talk) 07:39, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
There is an image claiming to be Marsh at OliverCowdery.com -- The Premier Web-Site for Early Mormon History. I have my doubts are the LDS Church History people have never claimed to have an image of Marsh, something they would want. What do you all think? Is it Marsh?--- ARTEST4ECHO ( talk) 14:44, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
I can't see any verifiable source for the quotes from and references to 'Document p.57.' Oops. Sorry. Found it in the references. But the link to the complete text is broken. Jenglish02 ( talk) 06:06, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
The recent reworking of the "milk and strippings" section is, IMO, a clear example of WP:SYNTH. It draws multiple conclusions ("it is highly probable that the real cause...", "...would indicate a disaffection...", "...may account for...") are novel conclusions not found in any of the cited sources. Since the cited primary sources only give (A) the date of his leaving the church and (B) the day of the Gallatin attack, any further conclusions like (C) why he left the church is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article. Now there very well may be a reliable source out there that connects those dots, but my admittedly cursory search didn't turn anything up. @ Thewholetruthnothingbut: Please get consensus here on the talk page before reinserting that edit. -- FyzixFighter ( talk) 04:30, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
Which one is it? I can take a look and try. Sometimes the code for the notes themselves is in the body of the article, so you would have to edit the section where the note is found to alter the note's text. -- FyzixFighter ( talk) 15:29, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
I wanted to start a new section here so the discussion in the "milk and strippings" section above can stay focused around that subject. Here's how I understand this issue: Thomas B. Marsh left/withdrew/disassociated himself from the church in the fall of 1838. From primary sources this is clearly seen in the 1838 affidavit. He was excommunicated in absentia in 1839. The question as I see it (correct me if I'm wrong) is what year do we use for the end of his term as member and as president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles? Certainly he was no longer a member of the quorum once he was excommunicated, but what about the time between the affidavit and the excommunication? I can see arguments for both possibilities, and it's not clear to me which would be correct. For example, if he had changed his mind after the affidavit but before the excommunication and came back to the church, would he still have retained his membership or position in the quorum or not? On the other hand, he left pretty definitively in 1838, swore out the affidavit against Smith and the church, and didn't come back for ~19 years. That's not simply going inactive, to use modern vernacular. My problem is that for me to make either argument, I have to engage in some extrapolation from the primary sources, which we aren't supposed to do as WP editors. IMO, the best way to clear this up would be a secondary source that either says something like "Marsh was in the quorum until 1838/1839" or, better yet, discusses this exact question. That's where I'm coming from on this question. Did I miss anything in the summary of the question? Does anyone have a secondary source that would help? -- FyzixFighter ( talk) 06:46, 3 December 2017 (UTC)