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Without some kind of a reference, this talk of Harro von Senger as the first to publish the 36 Stratagems in the West sounds extremely spurious. They were published in English in a "pop" business-friendly format by the Sunzi Craze in the late 1980s. A lot of the rest of this article seems to rely on dubious arguments from German, as well... I'm adding citation requests and will probably revisit this in a month with an axe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JSoules ( talk • contribs) 06:20, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Might as well add it here, Harro von Senger exists. Here is one of the many websites about him one can find.
http://word.world-citizenship.org/wp-archive/2553
114.76.18.50 (
talk)
14:33, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
'36 Strategies'? It's clearly stated on the page that it should be 'Strategems'... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.141.216.161 ( talk) 00:42, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I second this. The title of the page must be changed to "Thirty-six Strategems."
Apparently already changed. Can someone delete this thread? I'm not sure I'm allowed to delete it myself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.88.143.15 ( talk) 23:22, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
Is there a simplified version of each Chinese character for the 36 strategies? If not would it be okay if I added them in? —Preceding unsigned comment added by CLDragon ( talk • contribs)
AFAIK, tian is also some ancient naming for Emperor.
Theres also some matching story then, shortend:
1st try to invade korea with a fleet went bad because of the weather, emperor went sea-sick.
Generals want try a 2nd attempt, but emperor denies, because of his sea-sickness the 1st time.
Generals build a 'swimming city', composed of dozens of ships tied together, and invite the emperor...
Emperor arrives, generals let the 'city' depart to korea... emperor agrees then to invade...
However, I don't know, how far this story is true, but I read it in one translation of the san xi liu ji.
I will be adopting this page of sorts and try to edit it into better form. Current plan is to reformat the page, give the origin of each proverb, and an explaination on how the proverb applies to military tactics. Vyn 00:23, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I started removing some of the inaccuracies in it and ended up deleting the entire section since there is nothing left. There is no common Chinese saying that there are only 36 strategies under the sky. (Note that there is no direct quote in Chinese.) The book attributed to Sun Tzu is not a book of tactics only; wheras the thirty-six strategies themselves are more like tactics or strategems. And the fact that there are some similarities between the thrity-six stratgies and Western books on War is hardly surprising or worth mentioning. -- Takto 15:55, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Rather than feint within feints within feints , I've always taken this one on face value, to create an incident when none exists, usually to create a Casus belli. for example the Mukden Incident and the Germans staged incidents against itself to give them the excuse of self defence when attacking Poland. Koonan the almost civilised 01:33, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Is there an explanation for the presence of "The enemy" in this translation/explanation? As I encountered it, this was the strategy of pulling away the ladder yourself after scaling to the roof with your own forces, i.e. burning your ships to force your troops to fight to the death and not think of escape. And I don't see where "the enemy" comes in in the original stratagem... JSoules ( talk) 06:49, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Sometimes I get doubts that the main author really understands the strategems.
I corrected some faults, but do not have the time to rework the article entirely. Apart from such fundamental a rework possibly raising resistance by other contributors.
Kto288: Your interpretation of "Creating something from nothing" is entirely correct. Vyn's definition is more correct for Number 20, "Trouble the water to catch the fish".
-- 137.193.51.82 17:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
A half a brick isn't "bait" for anything I know about. How about this... By tossing the brick, they must drop the jade to catch the brick. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JoshNarins ( talk • contribs) 21:31, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
That guy really exists. He is a leading sinologist. Just give a quick search on google on the name Harro von Senger. I already found this. http://word.world-citizenship.org/wp-archive/2553 If someone could kindly do the citation, since I have no clue on how to do it. 114.76.18.50 ( talk) 14:32, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't care who he is... In fact, no one should really care who he is. Just because he is the first Westerner to study it, doesn't really make him the best. By the way, I really want to shoot whoevers naming the strategies... they're just FAIL! 08:00, 17 September 2009
They were translated from Chinese. Trust me, that's probably one of the hardest kinds of translation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.88.143.15 ( talk) 23:25, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
As useful as the modern, western examples are, they are all unencyclopedic and original research. They should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.173.80.223 ( talk) 18:23, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
I've tagged the article for OR. The historical incidents listed as examples of how the stratagems were used, especially those pertaining to World War II, may constitute OR. Most of them will have to go, unless the editors can find reliable sources to verify these claims. There are certain exceptions that can be made, such as "Andu Chencang" and "Weiwei Jiuzhao", because the stories of how these terms originated, may be listed as examples, and I think it's not a difficult task to find sources to support them. I'll remove all the unreferenced "examples" after seven days if no citations and references are provided by then. _ LDS ( talk) 11:28, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
The example of 15 is false. The Normans won due to the birth of a new kind of fighter know as knights (the English used to ride horses towards the battlefield and then tied them besdie a tree, but the Normans were seen charging on horseback and it said to have given the English quite a shock). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.171.232.83 ( talk) 22:53, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't think the pinyin diacritics help anyone; can I delete them? The Sound and the Fury ( talk) 07:16, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
The examples listed on the page are not Original Research. They are used in the books listed in the sources section. 174.22.13.242 ( talk) 18:30, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
The following books contain the examples that keep getting removed from the page.
174.22.13.162 ( talk) 16:07, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
There should be a section in the "Honey Trap" strategy about the Four Beauties. They are an example of the seduction strategy. 174.22.9.96 ( talk) 19:05, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
Is this something written in the 20th century, or maybe 800 BC, or what? Why should one have to read beyond the first paragraph, or even the first sentence, and still wonder about that? !!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:445:4001:4514:5927:CBE3:22AF:8A6C ( talk) 03:23, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
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Without some kind of a reference, this talk of Harro von Senger as the first to publish the 36 Stratagems in the West sounds extremely spurious. They were published in English in a "pop" business-friendly format by the Sunzi Craze in the late 1980s. A lot of the rest of this article seems to rely on dubious arguments from German, as well... I'm adding citation requests and will probably revisit this in a month with an axe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JSoules ( talk • contribs) 06:20, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Might as well add it here, Harro von Senger exists. Here is one of the many websites about him one can find.
http://word.world-citizenship.org/wp-archive/2553
114.76.18.50 (
talk)
14:33, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
'36 Strategies'? It's clearly stated on the page that it should be 'Strategems'... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.141.216.161 ( talk) 00:42, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I second this. The title of the page must be changed to "Thirty-six Strategems."
Apparently already changed. Can someone delete this thread? I'm not sure I'm allowed to delete it myself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.88.143.15 ( talk) 23:22, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
Is there a simplified version of each Chinese character for the 36 strategies? If not would it be okay if I added them in? —Preceding unsigned comment added by CLDragon ( talk • contribs)
AFAIK, tian is also some ancient naming for Emperor.
Theres also some matching story then, shortend:
1st try to invade korea with a fleet went bad because of the weather, emperor went sea-sick.
Generals want try a 2nd attempt, but emperor denies, because of his sea-sickness the 1st time.
Generals build a 'swimming city', composed of dozens of ships tied together, and invite the emperor...
Emperor arrives, generals let the 'city' depart to korea... emperor agrees then to invade...
However, I don't know, how far this story is true, but I read it in one translation of the san xi liu ji.
I will be adopting this page of sorts and try to edit it into better form. Current plan is to reformat the page, give the origin of each proverb, and an explaination on how the proverb applies to military tactics. Vyn 00:23, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I started removing some of the inaccuracies in it and ended up deleting the entire section since there is nothing left. There is no common Chinese saying that there are only 36 strategies under the sky. (Note that there is no direct quote in Chinese.) The book attributed to Sun Tzu is not a book of tactics only; wheras the thirty-six strategies themselves are more like tactics or strategems. And the fact that there are some similarities between the thrity-six stratgies and Western books on War is hardly surprising or worth mentioning. -- Takto 15:55, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Rather than feint within feints within feints , I've always taken this one on face value, to create an incident when none exists, usually to create a Casus belli. for example the Mukden Incident and the Germans staged incidents against itself to give them the excuse of self defence when attacking Poland. Koonan the almost civilised 01:33, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Is there an explanation for the presence of "The enemy" in this translation/explanation? As I encountered it, this was the strategy of pulling away the ladder yourself after scaling to the roof with your own forces, i.e. burning your ships to force your troops to fight to the death and not think of escape. And I don't see where "the enemy" comes in in the original stratagem... JSoules ( talk) 06:49, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Sometimes I get doubts that the main author really understands the strategems.
I corrected some faults, but do not have the time to rework the article entirely. Apart from such fundamental a rework possibly raising resistance by other contributors.
Kto288: Your interpretation of "Creating something from nothing" is entirely correct. Vyn's definition is more correct for Number 20, "Trouble the water to catch the fish".
-- 137.193.51.82 17:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
A half a brick isn't "bait" for anything I know about. How about this... By tossing the brick, they must drop the jade to catch the brick. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JoshNarins ( talk • contribs) 21:31, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
That guy really exists. He is a leading sinologist. Just give a quick search on google on the name Harro von Senger. I already found this. http://word.world-citizenship.org/wp-archive/2553 If someone could kindly do the citation, since I have no clue on how to do it. 114.76.18.50 ( talk) 14:32, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't care who he is... In fact, no one should really care who he is. Just because he is the first Westerner to study it, doesn't really make him the best. By the way, I really want to shoot whoevers naming the strategies... they're just FAIL! 08:00, 17 September 2009
They were translated from Chinese. Trust me, that's probably one of the hardest kinds of translation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.88.143.15 ( talk) 23:25, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
As useful as the modern, western examples are, they are all unencyclopedic and original research. They should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.173.80.223 ( talk) 18:23, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
I've tagged the article for OR. The historical incidents listed as examples of how the stratagems were used, especially those pertaining to World War II, may constitute OR. Most of them will have to go, unless the editors can find reliable sources to verify these claims. There are certain exceptions that can be made, such as "Andu Chencang" and "Weiwei Jiuzhao", because the stories of how these terms originated, may be listed as examples, and I think it's not a difficult task to find sources to support them. I'll remove all the unreferenced "examples" after seven days if no citations and references are provided by then. _ LDS ( talk) 11:28, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
The example of 15 is false. The Normans won due to the birth of a new kind of fighter know as knights (the English used to ride horses towards the battlefield and then tied them besdie a tree, but the Normans were seen charging on horseback and it said to have given the English quite a shock). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.171.232.83 ( talk) 22:53, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't think the pinyin diacritics help anyone; can I delete them? The Sound and the Fury ( talk) 07:16, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
The examples listed on the page are not Original Research. They are used in the books listed in the sources section. 174.22.13.242 ( talk) 18:30, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
The following books contain the examples that keep getting removed from the page.
174.22.13.162 ( talk) 16:07, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
There should be a section in the "Honey Trap" strategy about the Four Beauties. They are an example of the seduction strategy. 174.22.9.96 ( talk) 19:05, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
Is this something written in the 20th century, or maybe 800 BC, or what? Why should one have to read beyond the first paragraph, or even the first sentence, and still wonder about that? !!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:445:4001:4514:5927:CBE3:22AF:8A6C ( talk) 03:23, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Thirty-Six Stratagems. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 12:03, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
I attempted to neutralise the tone of the content in "Content" and removed redundant content. Unfortunately, the essay is written to be instructional, and I had to leave the instructional voice in to maintain some of the original context. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 04:23, 6 July 2020 (UTC)