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There is an edit war underway on this page, but there isn't even any discussion of the issues involved, just people rotely undoing edits. The editors involved should familiarize themselves with Wikipedia policies regarding external links. Under "Links normally to be avoided," it specifically lists "Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority." To me, that means aconstantineblacklist.blogspot.com should not be listed under External Links. In addition, it is generally good Wiki policy to explain your edits in terms of Wiki policies and guidelines, particularly regarding the core policies of Verifiability, No original research, and Neutral point of view. In other words, simply saying a link is offensive or unethical is likely to inspire a revert; citing a Wikipedia guideline or policy is less likely to be challenged. And if your edit requires an explanation that won't fit in the space allotted, it's a good idea to explain it in the Talk section for the article so people will understand your reasons for making the change. Candy ( talk) 18:53, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
••••••• "Links normally to be avoided," it specifically lists "Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority." To me, that means aconstantineblacklist.blogspot.com should not be listed under External Links.
"To me?"
I am a "recognized authority." Theresa Duncan was a student of mine - AND I have published widely on topics that Theresa took up and investigated herself. I also investigated her death AND the liars in the media calling it a "suicide."
Uh, who are you? Theresa ws your student! Where?
YOU, in fact, are NOT a recognized authority, and I publicly charge you of the worst kind of censorship. You are covering up the truth about Theresa's murder by repeatedly removing a link to a recognized authority, in violation of Wiki's written rules.
- Alex Constantine —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.31.79.120 ( talk) 14:54, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the two blog links inserted by User:75.31.79.120 (who is apparently Alex Constantine) and I am putting them here for the moment.
While the presenting of dissident views is fine, neither of these really fall under WP:RS and WP:V. The first comes from a blog with a very difficult to assess credibility or reliability as far as I can see. The second, while possibly credible, is impossible to source, being a blog apparently consisting only of this one letter in response to the LA Weekly story. Cheers, Pigman ☿ 02:30, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
The link to the Constantine blog has been removed as inappropriate by people who were very close to Theresa and know what the facts are. The same is true for the Kate Coe story, which though published in a local paper has no more standing than a blog article, particularly as it's assertions have been vigorously disputed and even discredited. To say that a blog piece rebutting Coe's story is somehow inappropriate is disingenuous, especially when justifying removing is using the ridiculous explanation that it is "impossible to source." I think it's fairly obvious that the writer (myself) knew Theresa well, and hence is an authority as good as any other when it comes to understanding who she was. Regardless, to remove that link while leaving Coe's piece amounts to censorship, as you allow one point-of-view and disallow another. I am perfectly happy to leave both off, but as long as Coe's piece is on there then my rebuttal will be as well. -- Empyreal1 ( talk) 19:44, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
The Kate Coe story does have more standing than a blog article, in terms of Wikipedia's own guidelines. Whether or not it stands as a valid external link is not conditional on whether your rebutting blog is a valid external link. "The Theresa Duncan Tragedy" was a researched story with named sources and it passed editorial muster. A local paper is not automatically considered a less legitimate source; there are a number of excellent local papers around the United States, ones I would read before a "national" paper like USA Today. LA Weekly has editorial guidelines and reporters must meet them. Your blog does not have such guidelines and you can write whatever you want.
Just because a blog posting represents a different point of view doesn't make it a valid external link (or invalid, for that matter). It has to be judged on its own merits. Removing one and not the other does not, as you say, amount to censorship. It's a matter of meeting Wikipedia guidelines. You're entitled to having your own opinion or views. You just don't have carte blanche to have them referenced on Wikipedia. Again, as noted above, this is about guidelines for reliability and verifiability. Kongjie ( talk) 22:02, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
-- Empyreal1 ( talk) 18:34, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
I have not been reverting links because it is unproductive. But we need to reach a consensus on this and it won't happen if User:75.31.79.120 continues to put in his blog link. The problem with blogs as external links has been adequately explained--it's in general not in line with Wikipedia policy. But even if this link were legitimate, it's absurd to insist on having a link entitled "A Letter to Kate Coe A friend of Theresa Duncan corrects the public record" when you won't allow the actual newspaper article to remain as an external link. It is furthermore outright self-aggrandizing to put the link to your blog rather than the link to the blog that the post originated from. Kongjie ( talk) 21:40, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Kongje. BTW, you accused me of removing the link to Coe's article, which I never did. Please check the edit history and you will see. Thanks. -- Empyreal1 ( talk) 04:25, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Empyreal1, sorry I just saw this today. I honestly can't see exactly where I accused you of removing the link and am sorry if I did, but you can appreciate my confusion--weren't we having a discussion about its validity and you were taking the "con" side?-- Kongjie ( talk) 02:01, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I have been reading about creating footnotes on Wiki but have run into some problems doing it for this article. I've made some progress but they still need some work (particularly the last two, which are supposed to refer back to the first footnote but don't, even though I thought I was following the instructions given). Is there anyone here who has footnote experience who can either straighten them out or tell me what I'm doing wrong? (I suspect there is a place to ask for footnote help, but I don't know where it is.) Was I wrong to try to create footnotes in the first place? Candy ( talk) 08:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I just made some edits, with I believed a sufficient explanation as to why. I would have thought this would be a fairly non-controversial one and not be a source of contention. In this circumstance, please do not undo an edit without an explanation as to why you thought the previous version was better, else you are the pot calling the kettle black, no? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Empyreal1 ( talk • contribs) 03:56, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
No. Your edit was reversed twice, as it went against the current consensus on a hotly contested page. It's wikipedia policy to discuss these things on the talk page, not just to keep changing them until an edit war breaks out. This topic is controversial, so lets please stay civil and cooperative on the page. Snowfire51 ( talk) 04:03, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I understand the point about using the talk page to discuss. However, I believe this was an edit that did not affect any dispute over facts. It certainly did not go against any consensus, unless you are saying no one can edit now without first seeking agreement. My reasons were to clean things up a bit, including the clutter of footnotes when the Vanity Fair article covered all points, as well as to remove the paragraph about discovering Jeremy's body. That belongs on Jeremy's page and does not warrant such prominent placement here. Other minor edits simply improved the flow of the paragraph. Neither you or the previous reverser of my edit had any cause other than finding my explanation inadequate. I will continue being fairly active in editing this page in the future, but will do a better job at explaining the reasons for the edits. Now that I have explained it, please undo your reversal and let the edit process continue. -- Empyreal1 ( talk) 04:11, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I will do the following edit if no one refutes the substance of it, referencing the Vanity Fair article, and has the section read: Theresa Duncan was found dead on July 10 2007. The official cause of death was suicide as a result of the combined ingestion of diphenhydramine and alcohol. Her longtime boyfriend and artistic partner Jeremy Blake is believed to have killed himself a week later, having been seen by an anonymous 911 caller walking into the Atlantic Ocean near Rockaway Beach. His body was found five days later off the coast of New Jersey. According to friends of the couple, Jeremy and Theresa believed that they were being followed and harassed by Scientologists up to the point of their deaths. -- Empyreal1 ( talk) 05:29, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
As tragic as this may be (assuming it's even real), is this a person of any import (I never heard of her or her alleged accomplishments or alleged death), or can anyone put themselves on Wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skaizun ( talk • contribs) 03:21, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Who is identifying themselves as Theresa was their student? Student where? I don't believe this person has authoritative knowledge about Theresa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.11.76.127 ( talk) 00:56, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
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![]() | The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future: |
There is an edit war underway on this page, but there isn't even any discussion of the issues involved, just people rotely undoing edits. The editors involved should familiarize themselves with Wikipedia policies regarding external links. Under "Links normally to be avoided," it specifically lists "Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority." To me, that means aconstantineblacklist.blogspot.com should not be listed under External Links. In addition, it is generally good Wiki policy to explain your edits in terms of Wiki policies and guidelines, particularly regarding the core policies of Verifiability, No original research, and Neutral point of view. In other words, simply saying a link is offensive or unethical is likely to inspire a revert; citing a Wikipedia guideline or policy is less likely to be challenged. And if your edit requires an explanation that won't fit in the space allotted, it's a good idea to explain it in the Talk section for the article so people will understand your reasons for making the change. Candy ( talk) 18:53, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
••••••• "Links normally to be avoided," it specifically lists "Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority." To me, that means aconstantineblacklist.blogspot.com should not be listed under External Links.
"To me?"
I am a "recognized authority." Theresa Duncan was a student of mine - AND I have published widely on topics that Theresa took up and investigated herself. I also investigated her death AND the liars in the media calling it a "suicide."
Uh, who are you? Theresa ws your student! Where?
YOU, in fact, are NOT a recognized authority, and I publicly charge you of the worst kind of censorship. You are covering up the truth about Theresa's murder by repeatedly removing a link to a recognized authority, in violation of Wiki's written rules.
- Alex Constantine —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.31.79.120 ( talk) 14:54, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the two blog links inserted by User:75.31.79.120 (who is apparently Alex Constantine) and I am putting them here for the moment.
While the presenting of dissident views is fine, neither of these really fall under WP:RS and WP:V. The first comes from a blog with a very difficult to assess credibility or reliability as far as I can see. The second, while possibly credible, is impossible to source, being a blog apparently consisting only of this one letter in response to the LA Weekly story. Cheers, Pigman ☿ 02:30, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
The link to the Constantine blog has been removed as inappropriate by people who were very close to Theresa and know what the facts are. The same is true for the Kate Coe story, which though published in a local paper has no more standing than a blog article, particularly as it's assertions have been vigorously disputed and even discredited. To say that a blog piece rebutting Coe's story is somehow inappropriate is disingenuous, especially when justifying removing is using the ridiculous explanation that it is "impossible to source." I think it's fairly obvious that the writer (myself) knew Theresa well, and hence is an authority as good as any other when it comes to understanding who she was. Regardless, to remove that link while leaving Coe's piece amounts to censorship, as you allow one point-of-view and disallow another. I am perfectly happy to leave both off, but as long as Coe's piece is on there then my rebuttal will be as well. -- Empyreal1 ( talk) 19:44, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
The Kate Coe story does have more standing than a blog article, in terms of Wikipedia's own guidelines. Whether or not it stands as a valid external link is not conditional on whether your rebutting blog is a valid external link. "The Theresa Duncan Tragedy" was a researched story with named sources and it passed editorial muster. A local paper is not automatically considered a less legitimate source; there are a number of excellent local papers around the United States, ones I would read before a "national" paper like USA Today. LA Weekly has editorial guidelines and reporters must meet them. Your blog does not have such guidelines and you can write whatever you want.
Just because a blog posting represents a different point of view doesn't make it a valid external link (or invalid, for that matter). It has to be judged on its own merits. Removing one and not the other does not, as you say, amount to censorship. It's a matter of meeting Wikipedia guidelines. You're entitled to having your own opinion or views. You just don't have carte blanche to have them referenced on Wikipedia. Again, as noted above, this is about guidelines for reliability and verifiability. Kongjie ( talk) 22:02, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
-- Empyreal1 ( talk) 18:34, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
I have not been reverting links because it is unproductive. But we need to reach a consensus on this and it won't happen if User:75.31.79.120 continues to put in his blog link. The problem with blogs as external links has been adequately explained--it's in general not in line with Wikipedia policy. But even if this link were legitimate, it's absurd to insist on having a link entitled "A Letter to Kate Coe A friend of Theresa Duncan corrects the public record" when you won't allow the actual newspaper article to remain as an external link. It is furthermore outright self-aggrandizing to put the link to your blog rather than the link to the blog that the post originated from. Kongjie ( talk) 21:40, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Kongje. BTW, you accused me of removing the link to Coe's article, which I never did. Please check the edit history and you will see. Thanks. -- Empyreal1 ( talk) 04:25, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Empyreal1, sorry I just saw this today. I honestly can't see exactly where I accused you of removing the link and am sorry if I did, but you can appreciate my confusion--weren't we having a discussion about its validity and you were taking the "con" side?-- Kongjie ( talk) 02:01, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I have been reading about creating footnotes on Wiki but have run into some problems doing it for this article. I've made some progress but they still need some work (particularly the last two, which are supposed to refer back to the first footnote but don't, even though I thought I was following the instructions given). Is there anyone here who has footnote experience who can either straighten them out or tell me what I'm doing wrong? (I suspect there is a place to ask for footnote help, but I don't know where it is.) Was I wrong to try to create footnotes in the first place? Candy ( talk) 08:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I just made some edits, with I believed a sufficient explanation as to why. I would have thought this would be a fairly non-controversial one and not be a source of contention. In this circumstance, please do not undo an edit without an explanation as to why you thought the previous version was better, else you are the pot calling the kettle black, no? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Empyreal1 ( talk • contribs) 03:56, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
No. Your edit was reversed twice, as it went against the current consensus on a hotly contested page. It's wikipedia policy to discuss these things on the talk page, not just to keep changing them until an edit war breaks out. This topic is controversial, so lets please stay civil and cooperative on the page. Snowfire51 ( talk) 04:03, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I understand the point about using the talk page to discuss. However, I believe this was an edit that did not affect any dispute over facts. It certainly did not go against any consensus, unless you are saying no one can edit now without first seeking agreement. My reasons were to clean things up a bit, including the clutter of footnotes when the Vanity Fair article covered all points, as well as to remove the paragraph about discovering Jeremy's body. That belongs on Jeremy's page and does not warrant such prominent placement here. Other minor edits simply improved the flow of the paragraph. Neither you or the previous reverser of my edit had any cause other than finding my explanation inadequate. I will continue being fairly active in editing this page in the future, but will do a better job at explaining the reasons for the edits. Now that I have explained it, please undo your reversal and let the edit process continue. -- Empyreal1 ( talk) 04:11, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I will do the following edit if no one refutes the substance of it, referencing the Vanity Fair article, and has the section read: Theresa Duncan was found dead on July 10 2007. The official cause of death was suicide as a result of the combined ingestion of diphenhydramine and alcohol. Her longtime boyfriend and artistic partner Jeremy Blake is believed to have killed himself a week later, having been seen by an anonymous 911 caller walking into the Atlantic Ocean near Rockaway Beach. His body was found five days later off the coast of New Jersey. According to friends of the couple, Jeremy and Theresa believed that they were being followed and harassed by Scientologists up to the point of their deaths. -- Empyreal1 ( talk) 05:29, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
As tragic as this may be (assuming it's even real), is this a person of any import (I never heard of her or her alleged accomplishments or alleged death), or can anyone put themselves on Wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skaizun ( talk • contribs) 03:21, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Who is identifying themselves as Theresa was their student? Student where? I don't believe this person has authoritative knowledge about Theresa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.11.76.127 ( talk) 00:56, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Theresa Duncan. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 09:05, 3 November 2017 (UTC)