No problem, I've certainly done it before someone (Buidhe if memory serves) commented on it. It's very disappointing to have access to a source and not be able to give it to others directly, but copyright law is what it is.
The lede seems somewhat long compared to the rest of the article, you may wish to trim it.
Please note that almost all of these are suggestions, and can be implemented or ignored at your discretion. Any changes I deem necessary for the article to pass GA standards I will bold.
Lede
Sorry if some of these are weird, currently working off a second concussion sustained on Thursday.
Everything is perfectly clear, so no worries about that! Very sorry to hear about the concussions, there is no rush in getting through this review if you feel you need time to recover.
Ichthyovenator (
talk)
00:17, 14 November 2021 (UTC)reply
and after Theophilos's death regent for the couple's young son Michael III from 842 to 856 suggest and regent for the couple's young son Michael III, after the death of Theophilos, from 842 to 856.
as an empress regnant 842–856,[2][8][9][10] and not just a regent first I'd suggest moving the many cites here to somewhere in the body, you can't really get around citing the alternative names in the lede only, but here it should be doable; perhaps broken between the ODB mention of it and the legacy; secondly, suggest something like as an empress regnant, who actually ruled in her own right, rather than just a regent.~
Given that those counting her as Regnant include Kazhdan and other sources (including
Bury), I think we can take the affirmative stance (i.e. treat her as a regnant throughout the article, and replace usages of regent with regnant)). I don't think I've yet seen both Kazhdan and Bury be wrong about something; even the very pervasive propaganda surrounding Phocas. You may also want to include a citation of Bury's "A History of the Eastern Roman Empire from the Fall of Irene to the Accession of Basil I" with the sentence mentioning that she was regnant.
IazygesConsermonorOpus meum20:37, 13 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Yeah, as should be clear from the article she also acted as empress regnant in every meaningful way so I'm all for consistently going with regnant. I've gone ahead and done the change (mostly replacing instances of "regency" with "reign" - Bury explicitly refers to the period as Theodora's reign at least), though I extended the invisible comment in the infobox (and added one to the lede) for clarity.
Ichthyovenator (
talk)
00:17, 14 November 2021 (UTC)reply
As a side note I think the article title is a bit meh since she ruled the empire for longer than she was married to Theophilos but none of the alternate names (Theodora II, Theodora the Armenian, Theodora the Blessed) are particularly common and she is mostly called just Theodora and distinguished from the others through mentioning her husband or the time period.
Ichthyovenator (
talk)
00:17, 14 November 2021 (UTC)reply
I think the issue is that Justinian's wife is by far the most famous of the 11 empresses named Theodora. I agree that this Theodora is more deserving though, so if you think it's fine you're more than welcome to go ahead with that after the review.
Ichthyovenator (
talk)
01:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Theophilos was an iconoclast; it is unclear to what extent he was aware that his wife was an iconophile suggest Theophilos was an iconoclast, who opposed the veneration of icons, it is unclear how aware he was that Theodora was an iconophile. (I think the obvious opposition of the terms and the following sentence's elaboration is good enough for the lede to not define iconophile here.)
she was good at inspiring loyalty and leading, was surrounded by experienced and loyal officials and lacked obvious rivals suggest she led well and inspired loyalty, was surrounded by experienced officials, and had no obvious rivals
The 855 Byzantine sack of the city Anazarbus in Cilicia largely put an end to Arab threats for the foreseeable future suggest The Byzantine sack of the city of Anazarbus in Cilicia largely ended the Arab threat for the near future.
After being angered at not being allowed to choose his own wife, Michael recalled Bardas (Theodora's brother) from exile and together they assassinated Theoktistos in November 855. Theodora raged at Michael and the other conspirators for several months and unable to placate his mother, Michael deposed her on 15 March 856 and became sole emperor. suggest Angered by Theodora's refusal to allow him to chose his own wife, Michael recalled her brother Bardas from exile, and with him assassinated Theoktistos in November 855. Theodora was enraged at Michael and the other conspirators for several months, before, unable to placate his mother, Michael deposed her on 15 March 856 and became sole emperor.
emperor Theophilos's step-mother Euphrosyne held a bride-show for the young emperor, suggest Euphrosyne, the step-mother of Emperor Theophilos, held a bride-show for the young emperor,
"unfortunate way to engage a future wife's affections". Pretty hilarious; genuinely wonder how he thought that was going to go: "Your gender pretty much created evil." "You're so right, please marry me!"?
Re-reading the entire empress consort part, Theophilos does at times come off as bit of a bufoon. As pick up lines go this one is kind of a catastrophe, yes.
Ichthyovenator (
talk)
01:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Activities as empress consort
Theodora was possessed by the wealth that came with her new status. went looking in the source (Garland) to see if this was paraphrased, which it is; I would recommend inserting this in quotes or otherwise attributing it to Garland, as it comes across as insulting. Best to clarify that the historians themselves are commenting such.
Incidentally, Garland, Greenwalt, and Herrin all link to Archive.org books, which, although very helpful, can't be linked in article space because they're still in copyright (although I've stolen them for my increasing
compilation of links of them; as a side note feel free to drop any links you have in there, I think a lot of the Roman/Byzantine editors use sources that can sometimes be hard to find).
IazygesConsermonorOpus meum17:24, 14 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Damn, four copyright violations in a single GA nom. Removed the links from all of them. I'll be sure to drop useful links at your compilation if any turn up :)
Ichthyovenator (
talk)
01:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)reply
The future emperor Michael III was the couple's youngest child this can probably be just Michael was the couple's youngest child as it is already mentioned he will be emperor.
which Theoktistos blamed on Bardas, succeeding in convincing Theodora to expel her brother from the court. somewhat confusing, suggest which Theoktistos blamed upon Bardas, and convinced Theodora to expel her brother from the court.
Boris I of Bulgaria began making threats towards the empire given that the Bulgarian treaty was once more about to expire. Boris was convinced to renew it without the need for military action. suggest Boris I of Bulgaria began making threats towards the empire as the Bulgarian treaty was once more about to expire, however, he was convinced to renew it without the need for military action.
drinking and spending time with his mistress Eudokia Ingerina over matters of state should also throw in the possible propaganda disclaimer here. Perhaps something along the lines of: Michael III turned fifteen in 855, signalling that he was nearing the age when he would be able to rule in his own right. According to the tradition of Simeon Logothete, he took Eudokia Ingerina as a mistress, and later married him to his co-emperor Basil I, though this narrative is challenged. Symeon's neutrality is disputed, and other contemporary sources do not speak of this conspiracy, leading several prominent Byzantists, such as Ostrogorsky and Adontz to dismiss this narrative. Whatever the case, although Theodora's reign had been a highly successful one, both her and Theoktistos were dissatisfied with Michael III given that he preferred chariot racing, drinking and spending time with his alleged mistress Eudokia Ingerina over matters of state. (I believe everyone agrees that Eudoka Ingerina and Michael had been friends since childhood, it's just the dispute of a romantic relationship.
Theodora raged at Michael and the other conspirators for several months suggest Theodora was enraged at Michael and the other conspirators for several months
In reference to Eve. and In reference to the Virgin Mary. you may wish to include these in the body, such as "through a woman, evils came to man" (referring to Eve).
No problem, I've certainly done it before someone (Buidhe if memory serves) commented on it. It's very disappointing to have access to a source and not be able to give it to others directly, but copyright law is what it is.
The lede seems somewhat long compared to the rest of the article, you may wish to trim it.
Please note that almost all of these are suggestions, and can be implemented or ignored at your discretion. Any changes I deem necessary for the article to pass GA standards I will bold.
Lede
Sorry if some of these are weird, currently working off a second concussion sustained on Thursday.
Everything is perfectly clear, so no worries about that! Very sorry to hear about the concussions, there is no rush in getting through this review if you feel you need time to recover.
Ichthyovenator (
talk)
00:17, 14 November 2021 (UTC)reply
and after Theophilos's death regent for the couple's young son Michael III from 842 to 856 suggest and regent for the couple's young son Michael III, after the death of Theophilos, from 842 to 856.
as an empress regnant 842–856,[2][8][9][10] and not just a regent first I'd suggest moving the many cites here to somewhere in the body, you can't really get around citing the alternative names in the lede only, but here it should be doable; perhaps broken between the ODB mention of it and the legacy; secondly, suggest something like as an empress regnant, who actually ruled in her own right, rather than just a regent.~
Given that those counting her as Regnant include Kazhdan and other sources (including
Bury), I think we can take the affirmative stance (i.e. treat her as a regnant throughout the article, and replace usages of regent with regnant)). I don't think I've yet seen both Kazhdan and Bury be wrong about something; even the very pervasive propaganda surrounding Phocas. You may also want to include a citation of Bury's "A History of the Eastern Roman Empire from the Fall of Irene to the Accession of Basil I" with the sentence mentioning that she was regnant.
IazygesConsermonorOpus meum20:37, 13 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Yeah, as should be clear from the article she also acted as empress regnant in every meaningful way so I'm all for consistently going with regnant. I've gone ahead and done the change (mostly replacing instances of "regency" with "reign" - Bury explicitly refers to the period as Theodora's reign at least), though I extended the invisible comment in the infobox (and added one to the lede) for clarity.
Ichthyovenator (
talk)
00:17, 14 November 2021 (UTC)reply
As a side note I think the article title is a bit meh since she ruled the empire for longer than she was married to Theophilos but none of the alternate names (Theodora II, Theodora the Armenian, Theodora the Blessed) are particularly common and she is mostly called just Theodora and distinguished from the others through mentioning her husband or the time period.
Ichthyovenator (
talk)
00:17, 14 November 2021 (UTC)reply
I think the issue is that Justinian's wife is by far the most famous of the 11 empresses named Theodora. I agree that this Theodora is more deserving though, so if you think it's fine you're more than welcome to go ahead with that after the review.
Ichthyovenator (
talk)
01:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Theophilos was an iconoclast; it is unclear to what extent he was aware that his wife was an iconophile suggest Theophilos was an iconoclast, who opposed the veneration of icons, it is unclear how aware he was that Theodora was an iconophile. (I think the obvious opposition of the terms and the following sentence's elaboration is good enough for the lede to not define iconophile here.)
she was good at inspiring loyalty and leading, was surrounded by experienced and loyal officials and lacked obvious rivals suggest she led well and inspired loyalty, was surrounded by experienced officials, and had no obvious rivals
The 855 Byzantine sack of the city Anazarbus in Cilicia largely put an end to Arab threats for the foreseeable future suggest The Byzantine sack of the city of Anazarbus in Cilicia largely ended the Arab threat for the near future.
After being angered at not being allowed to choose his own wife, Michael recalled Bardas (Theodora's brother) from exile and together they assassinated Theoktistos in November 855. Theodora raged at Michael and the other conspirators for several months and unable to placate his mother, Michael deposed her on 15 March 856 and became sole emperor. suggest Angered by Theodora's refusal to allow him to chose his own wife, Michael recalled her brother Bardas from exile, and with him assassinated Theoktistos in November 855. Theodora was enraged at Michael and the other conspirators for several months, before, unable to placate his mother, Michael deposed her on 15 March 856 and became sole emperor.
emperor Theophilos's step-mother Euphrosyne held a bride-show for the young emperor, suggest Euphrosyne, the step-mother of Emperor Theophilos, held a bride-show for the young emperor,
"unfortunate way to engage a future wife's affections". Pretty hilarious; genuinely wonder how he thought that was going to go: "Your gender pretty much created evil." "You're so right, please marry me!"?
Re-reading the entire empress consort part, Theophilos does at times come off as bit of a bufoon. As pick up lines go this one is kind of a catastrophe, yes.
Ichthyovenator (
talk)
01:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Activities as empress consort
Theodora was possessed by the wealth that came with her new status. went looking in the source (Garland) to see if this was paraphrased, which it is; I would recommend inserting this in quotes or otherwise attributing it to Garland, as it comes across as insulting. Best to clarify that the historians themselves are commenting such.
Incidentally, Garland, Greenwalt, and Herrin all link to Archive.org books, which, although very helpful, can't be linked in article space because they're still in copyright (although I've stolen them for my increasing
compilation of links of them; as a side note feel free to drop any links you have in there, I think a lot of the Roman/Byzantine editors use sources that can sometimes be hard to find).
IazygesConsermonorOpus meum17:24, 14 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Damn, four copyright violations in a single GA nom. Removed the links from all of them. I'll be sure to drop useful links at your compilation if any turn up :)
Ichthyovenator (
talk)
01:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)reply
The future emperor Michael III was the couple's youngest child this can probably be just Michael was the couple's youngest child as it is already mentioned he will be emperor.
which Theoktistos blamed on Bardas, succeeding in convincing Theodora to expel her brother from the court. somewhat confusing, suggest which Theoktistos blamed upon Bardas, and convinced Theodora to expel her brother from the court.
Boris I of Bulgaria began making threats towards the empire given that the Bulgarian treaty was once more about to expire. Boris was convinced to renew it without the need for military action. suggest Boris I of Bulgaria began making threats towards the empire as the Bulgarian treaty was once more about to expire, however, he was convinced to renew it without the need for military action.
drinking and spending time with his mistress Eudokia Ingerina over matters of state should also throw in the possible propaganda disclaimer here. Perhaps something along the lines of: Michael III turned fifteen in 855, signalling that he was nearing the age when he would be able to rule in his own right. According to the tradition of Simeon Logothete, he took Eudokia Ingerina as a mistress, and later married him to his co-emperor Basil I, though this narrative is challenged. Symeon's neutrality is disputed, and other contemporary sources do not speak of this conspiracy, leading several prominent Byzantists, such as Ostrogorsky and Adontz to dismiss this narrative. Whatever the case, although Theodora's reign had been a highly successful one, both her and Theoktistos were dissatisfied with Michael III given that he preferred chariot racing, drinking and spending time with his alleged mistress Eudokia Ingerina over matters of state. (I believe everyone agrees that Eudoka Ingerina and Michael had been friends since childhood, it's just the dispute of a romantic relationship.
Theodora raged at Michael and the other conspirators for several months suggest Theodora was enraged at Michael and the other conspirators for several months
In reference to Eve. and In reference to the Virgin Mary. you may wish to include these in the body, such as "through a woman, evils came to man" (referring to Eve).