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These kind of references to an offsite article seem inappropriate. No doubt Thelemapedia itself is of interest to those who read this article, and I have modified the link to point to the main page of Thelemapedia itself.
Someone at IP address 70.244.201.193 did nothing but add article links on Thelemapedia to a dozen different articles in a single half-hour session - that is link spamming.
Wikipedia certainly would love for the editor doing this to actually merge new material into Wikipedia from Thelemapedia - then it would be appropriate to cite Thelemapedia as a reference. But simply to use Wikipedia to refer traffic to your site without actually contributing content is IMO simply a form of spamming....
This article says The Book of the Law was produced through automatic writing, but the article for that book specifically states that Crowley did not use automatic writing. JoaoRicardo 20:37, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The current version of the article claims that
Thelema is a magickal philosophy of life based on Will. The individual Will in Thelema is called Had or Hadit. The Way, or the Pleroma of infinite potentiality is called Nu or Nuit.
Thelema is unique but also syncretic. Nu and Had correspond with the Tao and Teh of Taoism, Shakti and Shiva of the Hindu Tantras, Shunyata and Bodhicitta of Buddhism, Ain Soph and Kether in the Qabalah. Followers of the philosophy of Thelema may make use of the methods and practices derived from other traditions, including Alchemy, Astrology, Qabalah, Tantra, Tarot, and Yoga.
That is a rather bold statement. I can't for the life of me see how one could equate such definitions of Nu and Had with the Buddhist concepts of Shunyata and Bodhicitta. I suggest either a clarification or correction. Did Crowley himself make that claim of equivalence? Did some other named author? Luis Dantas 17:00, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Thelemapedia clearly belongs in the See also section. I mean, if not here in Thelema which is its topic, then where? I suspect, but haven't checked, that the Thelemapedia page is an orphan and is not linked from anywhere. If that is the case, then perhaps it should be listed on Votes for deletion. If already has two strikes against it—it started as a vanity page written by its own managing editor, which makes it autobiography as well. Adityanath 21:29, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Why is the Wiccan Rede in the See Also section? -- Morningstar2651 17:10, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)
That "German criticismen" (sic) really needs fixed... is it just babelfished? -- Kiwibird 3 July 2005 03:30 (UTC)
From the article -- Interior evidence supports the assertion that the Cairo Working, as it is called, was a psychic experience involving shared telepathy between Crowley and his wife, synchronicity, and Crowley's own unconscious psyche. Please cite a source for this claim within the article, and maybe explain what it means. It doesn't seem any more parsimonious than Crowley's claims. Dan 05:53, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
What is the fanetic spelling of θέλημα? So I can understand how it would sound. I am english.
I am going to remove the section about Thelema from the Obeah page, replacing it with a short mention. I am also going to remove the book ref to Crowley. My reasoning is as follows:
Obeah is jamacan folk magic. Thelema has nothing to do with Obeah. Aleister Crowley mentioned both Obeah (Jamaican folk magic derived from the Congo) and wanga (the latter a term most often found in Haitian Voodoo, meaning a magical charm pcket derived from West Africa) in one sentence in one book. The fact that he threw Jamaican and Haitian terms -- or, if you will Congo and Benin -- terms together indiscriminately indicates his level of outsidership and non-practitioner status with respect to Obeah.
It's nice that Thelemites are somewhat interested in Congo magic, but since Crowley really knew nothing about it himself, having this lengthy Thelemitic tail wagging the Obeah dog here is a mistake.
However, the text is well enough written that i would not wish to lose it -- so i am carrying it to the Thelema talk page, where the Thelema people can decide what to do with it. Just please, do not bring it back to the Obeah page; it is not relevant here beyond the brif mention i will give to Crowley.
This message is duplicated at the Thelema talk page.
Thanks.
Catherineyronwode 22:58, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I was wondering, since Thelema is a religous practcie, what is the role of God or gods in Thelema? I am not merely asking this out of curiosity, but I think a section should be included in this article, if for nothing more than the fact that people associate religion with a God or gods. If Thelema does not address this, then that should be added to the article.
Prime Qabalah & Thelema— Information on a new system of English Gematria and its application to Thelema
Based on this conversation, I have made the Thelemic Gematria article. Its not finished and i'm waiting for anyone to who finds it to add to it. Zos 20:48, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Those who do are the Perfect, who are beyond good and evil, i.e., all conventional moral codes and standards is more of a derivitive statement in reference to Friedrich Nietzsche--it is not a mainstream position of Thelemic doctrine. Ashami 05:42, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi, when thelema was shown to me it showed that. things are where they are. and credit is where it already is.
As is obvious, I have added a great deal of new info to the article. Because of this, it required a reorganization to make sense of it all. Please understand that in no way is this an attempt to undo anyone else's contributions. If I inadvertantly removed some important piece of information, by all means fit it back in. Ashami 03:08, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
This article is written from the POV of Crowleyan Thelema. As not all Thelemites are Crowleyan, which was grudgingly acknowledged in the Organizations section (I think), this article needs a major revision to be inclusive of Rabelaisian Thelema, which also has its adherents. See WP:NPOV for information on how to properly cover multiple points of view in a single article. I have started on this, but a lot more work needs to be done. - 999 03:33, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I think it neatly resolved by putting in chronological order, and have done so. Not perfect of course, and a bit of editing for flow and a better intro to the whole topic are probably needed. - 999 12:52, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Certainly we want the article to mention Rabelais, and Augustine, and diversity in modern Thelemic thought. But do we have a single verifiable example of anyone unambiguously using the name Thelema for their own "philosophy of life" before April 1904? Because we had better tell the reader the answer to this question in the first paragraph of the article. Dan 05:53, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I still haven't seen one example of anyone clearly using the name "Thelema" to refer to their own views or way of life before 1904 Gregorian. Barring a response, I'll change the article and related pages to reflect this. Dan 17:40, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I know. Rabelais wrote a book of fiction, and members of the Hellfire Club used a phrase from a book of fiction. Do we, or do we not, have a single verifiable example of someone clearly using the name "Thelema" to describe their own philosphy/religion/whatever before 1904? I most certainly do have citable references saying that Thelema began with Crowley. Dan 02:38, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
And what point do you want to make, exactly? Your question seems like a no-brainer; if he didn't call himself a Thelemite, neither do we. Nobody objects to mentioning that Rabelais wrote a work of fiction with the word "Thelema" in it, nor do I object to mentioning fans of the book. So just what point do you want to push? So far you've spoken of a pre-Crowley philosophy of life, but haven't cited anyone openly saying they subscribed to this philosophy. Dan 05:31, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I see one sentence buried in the Christianity article making the disputed claim that "Jesus of Nazereth" existed. And that line claims that he practiced Judaism. Later, the article acknowledges the claim that he never existed. This all seems more or less in order, although I'd say 'most historians (citations) say such and such,' instead of 'Such and such (citations)'. Again, what point do you want to make and what sources can you point to? Dan 19:35, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Anonymous reverter, do you have any better argument than "revisions are not improvements"? Dan 03:22, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
In what sense is this a philosophy? And what is a religious matrix? -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 12:01, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
What's wrong with "way of life"? "belief system" might also work. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 09:50, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Such is the way of thelemites; they want to have all the vices of (degenerated) religion yet pay none of the price of claiming to be one... Luis Dantas 16:20, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
There are many problems with the last edit by User:999, including the following:
New wording has been put in place to make the language more accurate and encyclopedic while being less derogatory and dismissive. While the initial efforts to place Thelema within a broader frame led to some good changes, these last few have gone too far in the other direction. Crowley and his system now has its very own section, clearly delineated, and there is no reason to continually point it out in the section. If positions need to be taken in opposition to Thelema as developed by Crowley, put them in the other sections. Otherwise, there will be no end to this reversion battle. Frater5 06:01, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure how there is a difference between this article and the Thelemic mysticism article. I've suggested a merge to discuss. Zos 19:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted Dan's changes due to the unexplain removal of Dashwood from the introduction. The inclusion of Dashwood in the intro is essential to the understanding that there was at least one known practitioner of Rabelaisian Thelema and also essential to the summary quote by Mahendranath. This clearly establishes the context for multiple understandings of Thelema, namely the looser Rabalaisian form and the more formally developed Crowleyan form. As there are currently practitioners of both forms and the Rabelaisian Thelemites specifically use the term "Rabelaisian Thelema", it would appear that Dan is attempting to bias the article against this form of Thelema with this change. — Hanuman Das 05:02, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I've addressed your concerns, kindly do not revert again without responding. Dan 05:15, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
You might also note that Rabelaisian is an adjective listed in the dictionary. Thus the term "Rabelaisian Thelema" is a valid English construction. I strenuously object to your less elegant rendition as "Rabelais and Thelema". As a person who practices Rabelaisian Thelema and who knows other people who do and use the term, I'm offended at your lack of tact and consideration. This article is not going to have much information on R.T. because there is very little written on it and most of it is on the web. But intentionally changing the name of the section because you refuse to acknowledge our existence when the phrase is a valid English construction and can stand on that basis simply exposes your bias against non-Crowleyan Thelemites. — Hanuman Das 05:47, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Dan, on the last item, this article is about Thelema and thus the section heading from the article on Rabelais may not be as apropo as the one already here. And you never said you wanted a cite of someone calling Rabelais' Thelema a philosophy - that's easily accomplished and need not be from someone pre-Crowley. Where did you get that idea? Anyway, the best way to request citations is to put {{citation needed}} at the appropriate point in the article, perhaps with a clarifying query on the talk page. Your discussion with 999 above seems rather pointless due to all the unnecessary requirements you seemed to be insisting on - proof that someone actually said they were practicing Thelema before Crowley. You ought to know better: Wikipedia generally uses secondary sources, not primary sources, and it would have been fairly easy as it was for me to find a citation calling Rabelaisian Thelema a philosophy. — Hanuman Das 09:31, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
H. Das, I got that idea because as far as I can tell, nobody verifiably endorsed or practiced the philosophy while using that name before the Book of the Law. And since people disagree about the definition of Thelema (even more than I thought, apparently) it seems NPOV to refrain from saying that people practiced it unless they made this claim themselves.
The name of this talk section ("unexplained") quotes my description of an edit by 75.24.152.45 with the title, rv, revisions are not improvements. I think I explained my own reasoning fairly well, but I admit I haven't put it all together in one place before:
I have no objection to pre-1904 references that avoid these problems. I think my last revert included all edits by other contributors that followed Wikipedia rules on these four points. For example, I have no problem including the Mahendranath reference in the first paragraph, because it reports a published writer's POV as such and does not logically contradict the other POVs I mentioned. (Forgot to add: when it comes to the section on modern varieties of Thelema, I wouldn't mind if we used a broad definition of "notable".) Dan 19:22, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
It seems like people have misunderstood my motives. My four points relate to Wikipedia rules and what they tell us about the article, not to the validity of Rabelaisian Thelema as a philosophy. Hanuman Das, I'll cheerfully recognize you as a Thelemite if someone asks me offline, assuming you want the title. I'll even argue for the inclusion of Rabelaisian Thelema in the article's section on Diversity of Thelemic thought. As others have pointed out, the bias you see stems directly from 'pedia rules about citations. One could argue - Zos would presumably argue - that any good encyclopedia must share this bias. In this connection, note that Gargantua and Pantagruel does not give your philosophy as the accepted meaning of Rabelais, but alludes to it as one interpretation among many. And as I mentioned, I found little consensus about what Dashwood did or believed. Dan 18:40, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Dan, in the process of your edit, you removed cited information and in some cases replaced it with uncited information. Please do not remove information which is cited, but feel free to add additional cited information. I will be correcting your removal of cited facts. Thanks. — 999 ( Talk) 15:01, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
It says that Crowley "in reverence to the Rabelaisian masterpiece also revived the Thelemic Law". So I'm happy to remove inspired and replace it with verbiage that states that Crowley revived Rabelais' Thelema. Your call. I thought you'd prefer softening to inspired... - 999 ( Talk) 19:28, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, that is true, but one would have to argue that the material is off-topic or not important to the article or some other valid reason. That there are conflicting views is not a good reason: that should result in the addition of but so-and-so says something-else type of sentences... - 999 ( Talk) 19:34, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
The latter is a matter of opinion, in the former case, "inspired" in its general sense was meant. It did not say "inspired the voice in Crowley's head" - you'd have to be intentionally reading into it to get that meaning from the simple use of a common English word. In any case I've corrected it to say what the source does say - that Crowley revived Rabelais' Thelemic Law, which is well-known. He would have read Rabelais at Cambridge years before he wrote the Book of the Law. - 999 ( Talk) 19:54, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Honestly, I don't know what you mean. I am using cited sources to back my view of Thelema which I've been studying for 25 years. You seem to have a much shallower view of Thelema and lack sources to dispute my cited info. I'm not interested in arguing your "points" as I don't see their relevance. Nothing in WP policy states that I have to find pre-1904 sources. Post-1904 sources are equally valid and I've used them in accordance with WP policy. I'm citing other people's opinions, not my own, and you are welcome to cite yet other opinions that contradict them. But you may not simply modify the article based on your own opinions. - 999 ( Talk) 20:31, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I've cited Vere Chappell, a high-ranking OTO officer, who wrote "One of the earliest mentions of this philosophy occurs in the classic Gargantua and Pantagruel written by Francois Rabelais in 1532." And I've cited Shri Gurudev Mahendranath who was a personal friend of Crowley's in the 1930s and discussed Thelema with him at length and wrote about it in The Scrolls of Mahendranath. That, in my opinion, trumps Sutin who is simply spewing his own opinion in what I consider to be a very unprofessional manner. He's supposed to be writing a biography, not his own opinions on Thelema, but rather reporting on Crowley's opinions. Yet I've left this in as long as it is qualified by calling out that despite the fact that he wrote this in a bio of Crowley, it was his own opinion. I'm not sure what else you want here? What are you complaining about? What do you want to rephrase? (without taking out cited material, of couse). - 999 ( Talk) 21:52, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I've cited the reference. It was you who disagreed with the word inspired. Would you like me to put that word back? - 999 ( Talk) 21:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but the source says "revived" and you were the one who insisted that I follow the source more closely. Again, you are welcome to add another third-party's opinion which differs... I don't think you really have sources for your position, though... - 999 ( Talk) 22:30, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I've supplied a numbered list of my points. Here, take a look at the part of my last edit describing various POVs, as a quick and dirty paste:
Mahendranath, who discussed meditation and Eastern studies with Aleister Crowley in the 1930s, wrote that Dashwood and Crowley both revived the Thelemic Law from Rabelais. [1] Aleister Crowley acknowledged in The Antecedents of Thelema (1926) that Rabelais "set forth in essence the Law of Thelema, very much as it is understood by the Master Therion himself," and wrote further that "the masterpiece of Rabelais contains in singular perfection a clear forecast of the Book which was to be revealed by Aiwass to Ankh-f-n-khonsu 370 years later." [2] But Crowley biographer Lawrence Sutin writes that in his opinion, which clearly differs with Crowley's, - :Questions of prophecy aside, Rabelais was no precursor of Thelema. Joyous and unsystematic, Rabelais blended in his heterodox creed elements of Stoic self-mastery and spontaneous Christian faith and kindness. [3] - Some other scholars argue that Martin Luther influenced Rabelais, and that the French author wrote from a specifically Christian perspective. In particular, Alexander Pocetto of the Allentown College of St. Francis de Sales draws many parallels between him and the saint. [4] Erich Auerbach (1946) disagrees, [5] as does the old Catholic Encyclopedia entry on the Renaissance. [6] and for other contributors, I'll throw in this split note from elsewhere [7] [8]
As for your confusion (others, see edit summaries) about why I included that long note -- the one I broke into two references in the reverted edit -- it cites Crowley defining "the Law of Thelema" in a way that seems quite different from Rabelais. I guess you could reconcile the two versions and say that Crowley revived Rabelais' Thelema if you accepted the Christian interpretation of Rabelais, and connected "Aiwass" with Jesus. Or you could accept Crowley's claim that Rabelais forsaw the later revelation in detail. But the article should not endorse either claim, since it would take real effort to find a more controversial position! Dan 18:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Thank you. I appreciate this. But even if Wikipedia had a rule against removing cited information, I did include Mahendranath's words in the list of POVs. NPOV forbids stating his view as fact, for the reasons just given: "The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly, but not asserted." I posted my preferred compromise here, some time before adding it to the article. Dan 19:00, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Quote marks? Oh, you mean the part in the Crowley section about naming rather than the introduction (which states the disputed claim as fact). The quote does not say, as the article does, that Crowley took the name from Rabelais. And indeed, he had another source -- the Book of the Law. I keep linking that article because the first paragraph seems kind of important. Dan 19:13, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Um, his private diaries and Magick Without Tears show him attacking that interpretation. (addendum: also everything else I recall him writing about Liber AL.) Dan 19:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
That's great, but aren't we getting a bit far afield? We started out talking about whether or not the article should assert disputed views in the introduction (we seem to agree that the dispute exists, at this point), and whether or not the Mahendranath quote says that Crowley named his system Thelema because he got the name from Rabelais (no). The rest of the discussion seems more suited to user talk. Dan 04:55, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
What, then, do you think the restored summary of POVs means? From my point of view, it seems clear that Sutin disputes the asserted relationship between Rabelais and Crowley, and that we have further citations for each part of his view. Dan 16:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Again, that's great, but I don't understand why you think it matters. You just said that a dispute exists, yes? Didn't I explicitly start from the premise that people disagree about the definition of Thelema, and thus the article should not say that people adhered to Thelema unless they said it themselves? "The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly, but not asserted." Dan 16:48, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
And yet the introduction clearly states Mahendranath's words as a fact. Dan 17:15, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I actually meant the part about Crowley, but in fact a Google search will give you various different views about the so-called Hellfire Club. Note the part about scant direct evidence. The one direct testimonial I've seen, from Wilkes, seems ambiguous and open to at least two interpretations even if we take it as fully-informed and truthful. Dan 17:31, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if I understand the question. And having studied Cataloging and Classification, I really hate the verb "to be". Crowley later classified his work as Thelema -- indeed, though he didn't fully accept every part of the Book at the time, he declared the Aeon of Horus before he even returned home (Sutin p.140) -- so I see no problem using the name. How does this relate to the article? Dan 16:32, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to review my list of 4 points from the first week of July in the light of recent changes. I think User:999 fixed point 4, except for the one phrase in Crowleyan Thelema about the origin of the name. And we'd remove that anyway because the source does not say what we report him saying. Mahendranath learned from Crowley (or at least took his advice), and their remarks on the subject seem technically consistent with each other. (In other words, Mahendranath seems technically consistent with the claim that Crowley got the name from Aiwass and Rabelais had a separate vision or revelation.) We've started to address point 3 together, and the article seems better in that respect.
I don't think we've completely solved the problem of point 3, and the dispute about what Thelema means, combined with 1 and 2. This relates mainly to the introduction. (But not the first introductory definition sentence. Nobody seems to object to that.) I tried to clarify my problem with using a disputed name ourselves when the subject did not so use it, and to explain what I think would solve this problem. As I wrote earlier, I don't know if balancing a violation of NPOV with a different violation counts as NPOV. Incidentally, where the article says AC "received" the Book of the Law, I might change that to "heard". It seems more strictly empirical and neutral. Dan 02:43, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
You know...I'm beggining to think that these two topics should be seperated. I noticed something of the same in one of the pages for naming conventions. Somewhat simular to the seperation of an egyptian name, and its thelemic representation. SynergeticMaggot 21:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Dan, I'd just like to point out that the reason other editor's get upset with you is that you don't bother to find a way to leave their cited material in. I am not going to go through the trouble to figure out how to put that material back in. It is up to YOU to integrate your new material WITHOUT removing any other cited material. As long as you do not do so, I will continue to revert you. Such actions are rude and disrespectful to the other editors!!!! Please find a way to leave their material in!!! — Hanuman Das 03:54, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I've done that myself. But as for "the weasel word some", all the cited sources mention this other POV about Satanism. Dan 15:07, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
What a good and useful policy! But I didn't call Dashwood a Satanist, I said that other people made the charge. I'll mention the contemporaneous charges with citations. Dan 15:16, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
I didn't consciously intend to make a point with that line in my edit. But I'd like to point out that from an empiricist point of view, the words "Thelema is also" mean "Some people have also used the word Thelema to mean the following". Except the article's wording denies the possibility of disagreement, which of course exists. See my comment of 2:43 July 23rd. Dan 20:24, 23 July 2006 (UTC) edited for clarity Dan 20:27, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I'm not on my account so i can't sign this, but in the first part of the article where it says "fay ce que vouldras", I believe "fay" may not be the correct spelling of the word, though it is a good phonetical spelling. I the word may in fact be "fais", which is the second person singular imperative form of the verb "faire", meaning "to do". I may be wrong though, the correction I'm suggesting comes from modern French, and the French used in the article may be archaic.
Friday, August 18, 2006 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.183.31.147 ( talk • contribs)
Links to personal websites are discouraged by WP:EL. The website ashami.com is the personal website of the person who added the link, as is evident from the user name, Ashami, which is the same as the domain name. The page linked to also "does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article here would have once it becomes a Wikipedia:Featured article." In fact, it looks like a summary of the Crowleyan section of this article. — Hanuman Das 08:20, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I like this article and believe it is well written and sourced. I did find some small argumentation which I removed. If there is any other such then it is in need of removal or alteration. Of course alteration is preferred. Judging by the standard of this article any unsourced argumentation will not stand very long. If there are any sources for the arguments that I removed please reinstate with citations. AlanBarnet 06:04, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
These kind of references to an offsite article seem inappropriate. No doubt Thelemapedia itself is of interest to those who read this article, and I have modified the link to point to the main page of Thelemapedia itself.
Someone at IP address 70.244.201.193 did nothing but add article links on Thelemapedia to a dozen different articles in a single half-hour session - that is link spamming.
Wikipedia certainly would love for the editor doing this to actually merge new material into Wikipedia from Thelemapedia - then it would be appropriate to cite Thelemapedia as a reference. But simply to use Wikipedia to refer traffic to your site without actually contributing content is IMO simply a form of spamming....
This article says The Book of the Law was produced through automatic writing, but the article for that book specifically states that Crowley did not use automatic writing. JoaoRicardo 20:37, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The current version of the article claims that
Thelema is a magickal philosophy of life based on Will. The individual Will in Thelema is called Had or Hadit. The Way, or the Pleroma of infinite potentiality is called Nu or Nuit.
Thelema is unique but also syncretic. Nu and Had correspond with the Tao and Teh of Taoism, Shakti and Shiva of the Hindu Tantras, Shunyata and Bodhicitta of Buddhism, Ain Soph and Kether in the Qabalah. Followers of the philosophy of Thelema may make use of the methods and practices derived from other traditions, including Alchemy, Astrology, Qabalah, Tantra, Tarot, and Yoga.
That is a rather bold statement. I can't for the life of me see how one could equate such definitions of Nu and Had with the Buddhist concepts of Shunyata and Bodhicitta. I suggest either a clarification or correction. Did Crowley himself make that claim of equivalence? Did some other named author? Luis Dantas 17:00, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Thelemapedia clearly belongs in the See also section. I mean, if not here in Thelema which is its topic, then where? I suspect, but haven't checked, that the Thelemapedia page is an orphan and is not linked from anywhere. If that is the case, then perhaps it should be listed on Votes for deletion. If already has two strikes against it—it started as a vanity page written by its own managing editor, which makes it autobiography as well. Adityanath 21:29, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Why is the Wiccan Rede in the See Also section? -- Morningstar2651 17:10, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)
That "German criticismen" (sic) really needs fixed... is it just babelfished? -- Kiwibird 3 July 2005 03:30 (UTC)
From the article -- Interior evidence supports the assertion that the Cairo Working, as it is called, was a psychic experience involving shared telepathy between Crowley and his wife, synchronicity, and Crowley's own unconscious psyche. Please cite a source for this claim within the article, and maybe explain what it means. It doesn't seem any more parsimonious than Crowley's claims. Dan 05:53, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
What is the fanetic spelling of θέλημα? So I can understand how it would sound. I am english.
I am going to remove the section about Thelema from the Obeah page, replacing it with a short mention. I am also going to remove the book ref to Crowley. My reasoning is as follows:
Obeah is jamacan folk magic. Thelema has nothing to do with Obeah. Aleister Crowley mentioned both Obeah (Jamaican folk magic derived from the Congo) and wanga (the latter a term most often found in Haitian Voodoo, meaning a magical charm pcket derived from West Africa) in one sentence in one book. The fact that he threw Jamaican and Haitian terms -- or, if you will Congo and Benin -- terms together indiscriminately indicates his level of outsidership and non-practitioner status with respect to Obeah.
It's nice that Thelemites are somewhat interested in Congo magic, but since Crowley really knew nothing about it himself, having this lengthy Thelemitic tail wagging the Obeah dog here is a mistake.
However, the text is well enough written that i would not wish to lose it -- so i am carrying it to the Thelema talk page, where the Thelema people can decide what to do with it. Just please, do not bring it back to the Obeah page; it is not relevant here beyond the brif mention i will give to Crowley.
This message is duplicated at the Thelema talk page.
Thanks.
Catherineyronwode 22:58, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I was wondering, since Thelema is a religous practcie, what is the role of God or gods in Thelema? I am not merely asking this out of curiosity, but I think a section should be included in this article, if for nothing more than the fact that people associate religion with a God or gods. If Thelema does not address this, then that should be added to the article.
Prime Qabalah & Thelema— Information on a new system of English Gematria and its application to Thelema
Based on this conversation, I have made the Thelemic Gematria article. Its not finished and i'm waiting for anyone to who finds it to add to it. Zos 20:48, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Those who do are the Perfect, who are beyond good and evil, i.e., all conventional moral codes and standards is more of a derivitive statement in reference to Friedrich Nietzsche--it is not a mainstream position of Thelemic doctrine. Ashami 05:42, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi, when thelema was shown to me it showed that. things are where they are. and credit is where it already is.
As is obvious, I have added a great deal of new info to the article. Because of this, it required a reorganization to make sense of it all. Please understand that in no way is this an attempt to undo anyone else's contributions. If I inadvertantly removed some important piece of information, by all means fit it back in. Ashami 03:08, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
This article is written from the POV of Crowleyan Thelema. As not all Thelemites are Crowleyan, which was grudgingly acknowledged in the Organizations section (I think), this article needs a major revision to be inclusive of Rabelaisian Thelema, which also has its adherents. See WP:NPOV for information on how to properly cover multiple points of view in a single article. I have started on this, but a lot more work needs to be done. - 999 03:33, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I think it neatly resolved by putting in chronological order, and have done so. Not perfect of course, and a bit of editing for flow and a better intro to the whole topic are probably needed. - 999 12:52, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Certainly we want the article to mention Rabelais, and Augustine, and diversity in modern Thelemic thought. But do we have a single verifiable example of anyone unambiguously using the name Thelema for their own "philosophy of life" before April 1904? Because we had better tell the reader the answer to this question in the first paragraph of the article. Dan 05:53, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I still haven't seen one example of anyone clearly using the name "Thelema" to refer to their own views or way of life before 1904 Gregorian. Barring a response, I'll change the article and related pages to reflect this. Dan 17:40, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I know. Rabelais wrote a book of fiction, and members of the Hellfire Club used a phrase from a book of fiction. Do we, or do we not, have a single verifiable example of someone clearly using the name "Thelema" to describe their own philosphy/religion/whatever before 1904? I most certainly do have citable references saying that Thelema began with Crowley. Dan 02:38, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
And what point do you want to make, exactly? Your question seems like a no-brainer; if he didn't call himself a Thelemite, neither do we. Nobody objects to mentioning that Rabelais wrote a work of fiction with the word "Thelema" in it, nor do I object to mentioning fans of the book. So just what point do you want to push? So far you've spoken of a pre-Crowley philosophy of life, but haven't cited anyone openly saying they subscribed to this philosophy. Dan 05:31, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I see one sentence buried in the Christianity article making the disputed claim that "Jesus of Nazereth" existed. And that line claims that he practiced Judaism. Later, the article acknowledges the claim that he never existed. This all seems more or less in order, although I'd say 'most historians (citations) say such and such,' instead of 'Such and such (citations)'. Again, what point do you want to make and what sources can you point to? Dan 19:35, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Anonymous reverter, do you have any better argument than "revisions are not improvements"? Dan 03:22, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
In what sense is this a philosophy? And what is a religious matrix? -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 12:01, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
What's wrong with "way of life"? "belief system" might also work. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 09:50, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Such is the way of thelemites; they want to have all the vices of (degenerated) religion yet pay none of the price of claiming to be one... Luis Dantas 16:20, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
There are many problems with the last edit by User:999, including the following:
New wording has been put in place to make the language more accurate and encyclopedic while being less derogatory and dismissive. While the initial efforts to place Thelema within a broader frame led to some good changes, these last few have gone too far in the other direction. Crowley and his system now has its very own section, clearly delineated, and there is no reason to continually point it out in the section. If positions need to be taken in opposition to Thelema as developed by Crowley, put them in the other sections. Otherwise, there will be no end to this reversion battle. Frater5 06:01, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure how there is a difference between this article and the Thelemic mysticism article. I've suggested a merge to discuss. Zos 19:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted Dan's changes due to the unexplain removal of Dashwood from the introduction. The inclusion of Dashwood in the intro is essential to the understanding that there was at least one known practitioner of Rabelaisian Thelema and also essential to the summary quote by Mahendranath. This clearly establishes the context for multiple understandings of Thelema, namely the looser Rabalaisian form and the more formally developed Crowleyan form. As there are currently practitioners of both forms and the Rabelaisian Thelemites specifically use the term "Rabelaisian Thelema", it would appear that Dan is attempting to bias the article against this form of Thelema with this change. — Hanuman Das 05:02, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I've addressed your concerns, kindly do not revert again without responding. Dan 05:15, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
You might also note that Rabelaisian is an adjective listed in the dictionary. Thus the term "Rabelaisian Thelema" is a valid English construction. I strenuously object to your less elegant rendition as "Rabelais and Thelema". As a person who practices Rabelaisian Thelema and who knows other people who do and use the term, I'm offended at your lack of tact and consideration. This article is not going to have much information on R.T. because there is very little written on it and most of it is on the web. But intentionally changing the name of the section because you refuse to acknowledge our existence when the phrase is a valid English construction and can stand on that basis simply exposes your bias against non-Crowleyan Thelemites. — Hanuman Das 05:47, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Dan, on the last item, this article is about Thelema and thus the section heading from the article on Rabelais may not be as apropo as the one already here. And you never said you wanted a cite of someone calling Rabelais' Thelema a philosophy - that's easily accomplished and need not be from someone pre-Crowley. Where did you get that idea? Anyway, the best way to request citations is to put {{citation needed}} at the appropriate point in the article, perhaps with a clarifying query on the talk page. Your discussion with 999 above seems rather pointless due to all the unnecessary requirements you seemed to be insisting on - proof that someone actually said they were practicing Thelema before Crowley. You ought to know better: Wikipedia generally uses secondary sources, not primary sources, and it would have been fairly easy as it was for me to find a citation calling Rabelaisian Thelema a philosophy. — Hanuman Das 09:31, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
H. Das, I got that idea because as far as I can tell, nobody verifiably endorsed or practiced the philosophy while using that name before the Book of the Law. And since people disagree about the definition of Thelema (even more than I thought, apparently) it seems NPOV to refrain from saying that people practiced it unless they made this claim themselves.
The name of this talk section ("unexplained") quotes my description of an edit by 75.24.152.45 with the title, rv, revisions are not improvements. I think I explained my own reasoning fairly well, but I admit I haven't put it all together in one place before:
I have no objection to pre-1904 references that avoid these problems. I think my last revert included all edits by other contributors that followed Wikipedia rules on these four points. For example, I have no problem including the Mahendranath reference in the first paragraph, because it reports a published writer's POV as such and does not logically contradict the other POVs I mentioned. (Forgot to add: when it comes to the section on modern varieties of Thelema, I wouldn't mind if we used a broad definition of "notable".) Dan 19:22, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
It seems like people have misunderstood my motives. My four points relate to Wikipedia rules and what they tell us about the article, not to the validity of Rabelaisian Thelema as a philosophy. Hanuman Das, I'll cheerfully recognize you as a Thelemite if someone asks me offline, assuming you want the title. I'll even argue for the inclusion of Rabelaisian Thelema in the article's section on Diversity of Thelemic thought. As others have pointed out, the bias you see stems directly from 'pedia rules about citations. One could argue - Zos would presumably argue - that any good encyclopedia must share this bias. In this connection, note that Gargantua and Pantagruel does not give your philosophy as the accepted meaning of Rabelais, but alludes to it as one interpretation among many. And as I mentioned, I found little consensus about what Dashwood did or believed. Dan 18:40, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Dan, in the process of your edit, you removed cited information and in some cases replaced it with uncited information. Please do not remove information which is cited, but feel free to add additional cited information. I will be correcting your removal of cited facts. Thanks. — 999 ( Talk) 15:01, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
It says that Crowley "in reverence to the Rabelaisian masterpiece also revived the Thelemic Law". So I'm happy to remove inspired and replace it with verbiage that states that Crowley revived Rabelais' Thelema. Your call. I thought you'd prefer softening to inspired... - 999 ( Talk) 19:28, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, that is true, but one would have to argue that the material is off-topic or not important to the article or some other valid reason. That there are conflicting views is not a good reason: that should result in the addition of but so-and-so says something-else type of sentences... - 999 ( Talk) 19:34, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
The latter is a matter of opinion, in the former case, "inspired" in its general sense was meant. It did not say "inspired the voice in Crowley's head" - you'd have to be intentionally reading into it to get that meaning from the simple use of a common English word. In any case I've corrected it to say what the source does say - that Crowley revived Rabelais' Thelemic Law, which is well-known. He would have read Rabelais at Cambridge years before he wrote the Book of the Law. - 999 ( Talk) 19:54, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Honestly, I don't know what you mean. I am using cited sources to back my view of Thelema which I've been studying for 25 years. You seem to have a much shallower view of Thelema and lack sources to dispute my cited info. I'm not interested in arguing your "points" as I don't see their relevance. Nothing in WP policy states that I have to find pre-1904 sources. Post-1904 sources are equally valid and I've used them in accordance with WP policy. I'm citing other people's opinions, not my own, and you are welcome to cite yet other opinions that contradict them. But you may not simply modify the article based on your own opinions. - 999 ( Talk) 20:31, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I've cited Vere Chappell, a high-ranking OTO officer, who wrote "One of the earliest mentions of this philosophy occurs in the classic Gargantua and Pantagruel written by Francois Rabelais in 1532." And I've cited Shri Gurudev Mahendranath who was a personal friend of Crowley's in the 1930s and discussed Thelema with him at length and wrote about it in The Scrolls of Mahendranath. That, in my opinion, trumps Sutin who is simply spewing his own opinion in what I consider to be a very unprofessional manner. He's supposed to be writing a biography, not his own opinions on Thelema, but rather reporting on Crowley's opinions. Yet I've left this in as long as it is qualified by calling out that despite the fact that he wrote this in a bio of Crowley, it was his own opinion. I'm not sure what else you want here? What are you complaining about? What do you want to rephrase? (without taking out cited material, of couse). - 999 ( Talk) 21:52, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I've cited the reference. It was you who disagreed with the word inspired. Would you like me to put that word back? - 999 ( Talk) 21:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but the source says "revived" and you were the one who insisted that I follow the source more closely. Again, you are welcome to add another third-party's opinion which differs... I don't think you really have sources for your position, though... - 999 ( Talk) 22:30, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I've supplied a numbered list of my points. Here, take a look at the part of my last edit describing various POVs, as a quick and dirty paste:
Mahendranath, who discussed meditation and Eastern studies with Aleister Crowley in the 1930s, wrote that Dashwood and Crowley both revived the Thelemic Law from Rabelais. [1] Aleister Crowley acknowledged in The Antecedents of Thelema (1926) that Rabelais "set forth in essence the Law of Thelema, very much as it is understood by the Master Therion himself," and wrote further that "the masterpiece of Rabelais contains in singular perfection a clear forecast of the Book which was to be revealed by Aiwass to Ankh-f-n-khonsu 370 years later." [2] But Crowley biographer Lawrence Sutin writes that in his opinion, which clearly differs with Crowley's, - :Questions of prophecy aside, Rabelais was no precursor of Thelema. Joyous and unsystematic, Rabelais blended in his heterodox creed elements of Stoic self-mastery and spontaneous Christian faith and kindness. [3] - Some other scholars argue that Martin Luther influenced Rabelais, and that the French author wrote from a specifically Christian perspective. In particular, Alexander Pocetto of the Allentown College of St. Francis de Sales draws many parallels between him and the saint. [4] Erich Auerbach (1946) disagrees, [5] as does the old Catholic Encyclopedia entry on the Renaissance. [6] and for other contributors, I'll throw in this split note from elsewhere [7] [8]
As for your confusion (others, see edit summaries) about why I included that long note -- the one I broke into two references in the reverted edit -- it cites Crowley defining "the Law of Thelema" in a way that seems quite different from Rabelais. I guess you could reconcile the two versions and say that Crowley revived Rabelais' Thelema if you accepted the Christian interpretation of Rabelais, and connected "Aiwass" with Jesus. Or you could accept Crowley's claim that Rabelais forsaw the later revelation in detail. But the article should not endorse either claim, since it would take real effort to find a more controversial position! Dan 18:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Thank you. I appreciate this. But even if Wikipedia had a rule against removing cited information, I did include Mahendranath's words in the list of POVs. NPOV forbids stating his view as fact, for the reasons just given: "The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly, but not asserted." I posted my preferred compromise here, some time before adding it to the article. Dan 19:00, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Quote marks? Oh, you mean the part in the Crowley section about naming rather than the introduction (which states the disputed claim as fact). The quote does not say, as the article does, that Crowley took the name from Rabelais. And indeed, he had another source -- the Book of the Law. I keep linking that article because the first paragraph seems kind of important. Dan 19:13, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Um, his private diaries and Magick Without Tears show him attacking that interpretation. (addendum: also everything else I recall him writing about Liber AL.) Dan 19:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
That's great, but aren't we getting a bit far afield? We started out talking about whether or not the article should assert disputed views in the introduction (we seem to agree that the dispute exists, at this point), and whether or not the Mahendranath quote says that Crowley named his system Thelema because he got the name from Rabelais (no). The rest of the discussion seems more suited to user talk. Dan 04:55, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
What, then, do you think the restored summary of POVs means? From my point of view, it seems clear that Sutin disputes the asserted relationship between Rabelais and Crowley, and that we have further citations for each part of his view. Dan 16:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Again, that's great, but I don't understand why you think it matters. You just said that a dispute exists, yes? Didn't I explicitly start from the premise that people disagree about the definition of Thelema, and thus the article should not say that people adhered to Thelema unless they said it themselves? "The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly, but not asserted." Dan 16:48, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
And yet the introduction clearly states Mahendranath's words as a fact. Dan 17:15, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I actually meant the part about Crowley, but in fact a Google search will give you various different views about the so-called Hellfire Club. Note the part about scant direct evidence. The one direct testimonial I've seen, from Wilkes, seems ambiguous and open to at least two interpretations even if we take it as fully-informed and truthful. Dan 17:31, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if I understand the question. And having studied Cataloging and Classification, I really hate the verb "to be". Crowley later classified his work as Thelema -- indeed, though he didn't fully accept every part of the Book at the time, he declared the Aeon of Horus before he even returned home (Sutin p.140) -- so I see no problem using the name. How does this relate to the article? Dan 16:32, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to review my list of 4 points from the first week of July in the light of recent changes. I think User:999 fixed point 4, except for the one phrase in Crowleyan Thelema about the origin of the name. And we'd remove that anyway because the source does not say what we report him saying. Mahendranath learned from Crowley (or at least took his advice), and their remarks on the subject seem technically consistent with each other. (In other words, Mahendranath seems technically consistent with the claim that Crowley got the name from Aiwass and Rabelais had a separate vision or revelation.) We've started to address point 3 together, and the article seems better in that respect.
I don't think we've completely solved the problem of point 3, and the dispute about what Thelema means, combined with 1 and 2. This relates mainly to the introduction. (But not the first introductory definition sentence. Nobody seems to object to that.) I tried to clarify my problem with using a disputed name ourselves when the subject did not so use it, and to explain what I think would solve this problem. As I wrote earlier, I don't know if balancing a violation of NPOV with a different violation counts as NPOV. Incidentally, where the article says AC "received" the Book of the Law, I might change that to "heard". It seems more strictly empirical and neutral. Dan 02:43, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
You know...I'm beggining to think that these two topics should be seperated. I noticed something of the same in one of the pages for naming conventions. Somewhat simular to the seperation of an egyptian name, and its thelemic representation. SynergeticMaggot 21:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Dan, I'd just like to point out that the reason other editor's get upset with you is that you don't bother to find a way to leave their cited material in. I am not going to go through the trouble to figure out how to put that material back in. It is up to YOU to integrate your new material WITHOUT removing any other cited material. As long as you do not do so, I will continue to revert you. Such actions are rude and disrespectful to the other editors!!!! Please find a way to leave their material in!!! — Hanuman Das 03:54, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I've done that myself. But as for "the weasel word some", all the cited sources mention this other POV about Satanism. Dan 15:07, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
What a good and useful policy! But I didn't call Dashwood a Satanist, I said that other people made the charge. I'll mention the contemporaneous charges with citations. Dan 15:16, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
I didn't consciously intend to make a point with that line in my edit. But I'd like to point out that from an empiricist point of view, the words "Thelema is also" mean "Some people have also used the word Thelema to mean the following". Except the article's wording denies the possibility of disagreement, which of course exists. See my comment of 2:43 July 23rd. Dan 20:24, 23 July 2006 (UTC) edited for clarity Dan 20:27, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I'm not on my account so i can't sign this, but in the first part of the article where it says "fay ce que vouldras", I believe "fay" may not be the correct spelling of the word, though it is a good phonetical spelling. I the word may in fact be "fais", which is the second person singular imperative form of the verb "faire", meaning "to do". I may be wrong though, the correction I'm suggesting comes from modern French, and the French used in the article may be archaic.
Friday, August 18, 2006 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.183.31.147 ( talk • contribs)
Links to personal websites are discouraged by WP:EL. The website ashami.com is the personal website of the person who added the link, as is evident from the user name, Ashami, which is the same as the domain name. The page linked to also "does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article here would have once it becomes a Wikipedia:Featured article." In fact, it looks like a summary of the Crowleyan section of this article. — Hanuman Das 08:20, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I like this article and believe it is well written and sourced. I did find some small argumentation which I removed. If there is any other such then it is in need of removal or alteration. Of course alteration is preferred. Judging by the standard of this article any unsourced argumentation will not stand very long. If there are any sources for the arguments that I removed please reinstate with citations. AlanBarnet 06:04, 24 November 2006 (UTC)