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"... The movement campaigns against the "monetary-market" economy which they argue should be replaced with a resource-based economy in which money would serve no purpose. The movement is critical of fractional reserve banking ..." This is confusing. Isn't the latter part of this quote somewhat redundant? Fractional-reserve banking is a subset of banking, which, in turn, is a subset of a monetary-market economy. Since the movement advocates against the monetary market economy - the superset - and argues for its replacement with an economy without money, then the movement automatically advocates for the abolition of subsets such as all forms of banking, including sub-subsets such as fractional reserve banking... I propose shortening the above to: "The movement advocates against the "monetary-market" economy which they argue should be replaced with a resource-based economy in which money would serve no purpose." Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 00:17, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
"The Zeitgeist Movement was inspired by Peter Joseph's film Zeitgeist: Addendum,[2] the latter of which described The Venus Project as a possible solution." I'm confused by the term 'the latter of which'. What does 'the latter' refer to? Does it refer to the latter portion of the film, as opposed to the former portion of the movie? Or does it try to distinguish between Peter Joseph and his film? I think the sentence would be clearer if the term 'the latter of which' was removed entirely. IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 00:44, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
The descriptions/ analysis from Globes, TheMarker and the NYT are provided by the journalists; these citations cite the journalists, not TZM members. They cite what the journalists reported to their readers, not what the TZM members told the journalists. Also note that in the RT interviews the journalist (Lauren Lyster) makes specific allegations/ challenges (for example challenging the TZM member on utopia, technological unemployment, etc.) Regards,
IjonTichyIjonTichy (
talk)
11:01, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Why were my additions to 'See Also' removed? These links to wiki pages satisfy wikipedia:see also. No explanation was provided for this arbitrary removal of valid material. This was not a proper action. A careful reading and close study of Anarchist communism, Communalism (political philosophy), Direct democracy and Technological unemployment would reveal that these come very close to describing TZM's ideas/ positions. So why were they removed? By the way, they were added separately originally, in a separate edit from, for example, the citing of journalistic sources. So even if there was an issue with the other edits, there's no excuse this time to delete these additions to 'See Also'. One cannot escape the thought that perhaps these wiki pages were not read at all (or perhaps not read properly, maybe there was a comprehension problem?) before a quick, convenient, easy reach for the 'delete' button.... Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 11:36, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
May I suggest that editors please study the materials carefully, go over them a few times to improve comprehension and understanding. Further study could help the reader realize that the citations are valid (verifiable). Thanks.
IjonTichyIjonTichy (
talk)
11:36, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Please note that the allegations that the edits are 'promotional' and that the edits suffer from a 'sourcing problem' are absolutely ridiculous. These characterizations of the edits are baseless, unjustified and unsupported by the facts, since these published sources are independent and verifiable, and since these sources contain both a description of some of TZM's positions as well as severe criticism of these positions. And please see my comment above regarding the edits to 'See Also.' If anything, the rampant censorship on this page is promotional and problematic - promoting the POV of the censor(s), which deleted valid, verifiable citings from reliable indep. sources. Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 14:14, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
"... the form this 'something else' would take seems to veer from 'a dictatorship of the machinery' to anarcho-geekist utopianism, without ever actually being explicitly defined. Until TZM tell the world what they stand for in comprehensible language, Wikipedia can't."
In the sequel, I'll list a large number of sources. Before rushing to respond that these sources are not verifiable and should be disqualified from citing on this wiki page, please note that I'm not implying that all, or any, of these sources should be directly cited on this TZM wiki page. I'm providing these sources/ references as part of my response to the comment above to help the editor find his own answers to his questions, not necessarily as a suggestion for inclusion on the page available to the general public. (End of Disclaimer.)
From spending many tens of hours (a) viewing the dozens of TZM lectures, documentaries, presentations, town-hall meetings, Q&A sessions (post town-hall meetings, post-presentations, etc.), (b) reading the materials on the TZM website (including e.g. their Q&A, the TZM blog postings, their newsletters, their weekly audio podcasts, etc.), (c) studying the references which were deleted from my April 27 edits, (d) translating the Hebrew articles into English (the translation of the TheMarker article will be posted in a few days), (e) studying the materials on The Venus Project website, (f) studying the book by Jacque Fresco, (g) and more, from a careful study of all these sources, it seems TZM does not claim to have all the details of all the solutions to all the world's problems. They seem to admit, in several different places, that the solutions they advocate are general, big-picture in nature. The movement seems to believe that its proposed solutions are more of an overview of the solution, a general description of the outline of the solutions, than an attempt to provide explicit details. They seem to claim they are an educational/ awareness organization that, at least up to date, has seemingly focused, they claim, mostly on trying to articulate what they believe is the problem, why they believe these are problems, what, in their view, is the impact of these problems on humanity, and a general overview of what they believe is the solution.
They seem to claim that the fine details of their proposed solutions, the more explicit details, should be worked out by qualified people --- engineers, scientists, physicians, skilled workers, teachers, artists, etc. --- and not by filmmakers (such as the creator of the Zeitgeist film series), not by supporters of TZM or TVP, and not by politicians, lawyers, bankers, corporate CEOs, etc. The movement seems to advocate that only people who have specific, proven, verifiable knowledge and skills in specific areas should contribute to these areas. TZM seems to claim that the process of providing the necessary details of the solutions should be the domain of the creative, innovative forces within humanity itself - and not the domain TZM. They also seem to believe that this process will be continuous, evolving, emergent, never-ending, without a finality. They seem to believe that the process of solving humanity's problems will be an adaptive process, always adapting to new innovations and new discoveries in science, technology, the arts, education, healthcare, etc. They seem to believe that, as a result of all of the above, nobody can provide the explicit details, indeed that nobody should provide the details; they seem to believe that it would be futile, impractical, impossible and a waste of time to attempt to articulate, at this time, the details of the solutions, because, as already mentioned above, they believe that the scientifically correct - i.e., scientific-method-based - solutions need to emerge naturally and evolve and adapt to rapid changes, as already mentioned above. Moreover, they seem to claim they believe in a flat (horizontal) method of decision making (similar, they seem to claim to believe, to an adhocracy, wikipedia, BSD, bottom-up decision making, etc.) and thus it seems they believe that it would be against their core principles to advocate for imposing, from above, any precise details of the solutions (for example, the precise details of the role of machines in decision making).
In summary, TZM seems to believe that they are trying to tell the world what they stand for in a comprehensible language (although they claim they are open to feedback in order to continue to improve the comprehension of their positions/ ideas). However, at the same time, TZM seems to believe that their solutions cannot be - moreover, should not be - too explicitly defined: they seem to believe that it is best to leave it up to you, and everybody else you know, and indeed everybody else in the world, all working cooperatively and in solidarity, to decide, in a truly democratic fashion, (but without the interference and limitations imposed, in their view, by financial considerations, or imposed by any form of top-down decision making, or imposed by any movements, including TZM), on more explicit definitions of their (currently more generalized) proposed solutions.
I hope this helps. But please note that, as explained above, an attempt to pin-point precisely, with almost-infinite precision, the explicit details of TZM's solutions, i.e., an attempt to remove all ambiguity and individual interpretation and individual understanding of TZM's solutions, is doomed to fail from the start, by definition, and would only result in further lengthy delay of the development of this wiki page. Wikipedia pages are not written to accomplish the impossible dream that each and every reader of the same page must reach the same exact understanding, insights and comprehension of the subject. Fully uniform understanding/ comprehension of Wikipedia subjects does not seem to be a goal of Wikipedia. Instead, from quickly browsing wiki policies/ rules/ regulations regarding citing references/ sources, it seems the kind of potential contradictions, potential lack of full comprehension of the topic, potential lack of full understanding of the subject, potential lack of full (100%) clarity, are not rare in Wikipedia. In other words, it seems that some reasonable level of potential ambiguity in Wikipedia subjects is normal, a somewhat expected and relatively common occurrence, and should not be used as a reason for wholesale, easily-accomplished, quick deletion of valid citations from verifiable, independent, published sources, and removal of valid additions to the 'See Also' section.
As I already mentioned, in the next few days I will post the translation of the TheMarker article. After that, in an effort to move the editing process forward instead of continuing to spend enormous amounts of time on responding to comments, I would like to invite all editors to propose specific citations and quotations [of the journalists, not TZM members] from our numerous existing verifiable sources for inclusion on this TZM wiki page. (I'm referring to the verifiable sources which have been deleted wholesale from my April 27 edits: the translations of the Globes and TheMarker articles, the NYT article, The HuffPo article, the 3 RT interviews, etc.)
Best, IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 18:32, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
Feedback is solicited on the following suggested edit.
I propose the following be inserted inside 'Activities', as follows:
Until a split in 2011, the ....
The basic principles, ideas and positions of the movement are described/ discussed in the following sources: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8]
The Zeitgeist Movement stages an annual event called ....
(The spaces between the reference numbers above will be removed, of course.)
Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 15:44, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
Tom and Ankh, to clarify my suggestion above:
Activities
Until a split in 2011, the movement acted as the activist arm of The Venus Project, [9] and still advocates for a global society where resources are sustainably shared, because they view the current economic system as the cause of the greatest social problems. [10]
The positions of the movement are described/ discussed in the following sources: [1] [2] [3] [4] [11] [6] [7] [12]
The Zeitgeist Movement stages an annual event called "ZDay" in March. The first ZDay was on March 15, 2009. The main event in New York City had a sold-out crowd of around 900 at the Borough of Manhattan Community College. [13] The 2010 event took place on March 13. A 6-hour live web cast of lectures from the movement's key figures took place in New York City. [10] The 2011 main event was held in London, [14] and the 2012 main event was held in Vancouver. [15]
However, if I understand correctly, Ankh may be suggesting that the above proposed edit is improper. To address Ankh's feedback, as a next step, I could propose another set of suggested edits. (Of course, all other editors are invited to propose their own edits, if they wish to do so; for example, other editors may choose to [or may choose not to] base their suggested edits on the sources listed in the proposed edit above ...) Best, IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 23:48, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
{{
cite web}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
nytimes
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).The change seems to be the addition of "The positions of the movement are described/discussed in the following sources:" followed by half a dozen links. I don't see a reason for that. There are links to the movement's site in External links. The reader interested in the positions of the movement can follow them. Tom Harrison Talk 00:24, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Thanks, Tom. On a future date, I'll propose another set of suggested edits for inclusion in the 'Activities' section. My suggested edits will rely heavily on citations and quotations from the references listed above. If any editor is opposed to my citations from these verifiable, published, independent, secondary sources (with the exception of the Q&A, which is a primary source), I would like to ask that the editor please provide his own suggestion of alternative citations or quotes from these sources. However, if an editor is opposed to any citations or quotes from these verifiable secondary sources and feels these sources should not be used at all for citations or quotations in the 'Activities' section, I would like that editor to please explain. IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 02:38, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Feedback is solicited on the recent
WP:BRD cycle: the article has been revised with a suggested set of edits. All citations and quotes in the current set of proposed edits are from the New York Times, and only from the NYT.
[Future proposed edits will be based on citations from the remaining set of secondary sources listed above (Huffington Post, TheMarker, Globes, 5 RT interviews, ...). For now, I'm experimenting with basing each newly-proposed set of edits on citations from one, and only one, additional (verifiable, of course) source. This time it's the NYT; the second set of proposed edits will add citations from a second source to build on top of the first set of suggested edits; and so on.]
Best, IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 05:01, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
A second set of suggested edits has been posted, containing citations from the Huffington Post. Regretfully the proposed edit contains a citation overkill which vastly clutters the page, but this is done only to help editors (who might be interested in scrutinizing each and every cited word or phrase to ascertain its verifiability) to distinguish between citations from the NYT and the Huff Po (and, in future edits, TheMarker, Globes, RT, etc). The overkill/ clutter will be eliminated in the final version after citations from all (verifiable) sources are included in the article, as per
WP:Citation overkill.
IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 11:47, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
A third set of suggested edits has been posted, containing citations from the English translation of the Globes article. IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 18:05, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
A fourth set of suggested edits has been posted, containing citations from the English translation of the TheMarker article.
Regretfully the proposed edit contains a citation overkill which vastly clutters the page, but this is done only to help editors (in case any editors might be interested in scrutinizing each and every cited word or phrase to ascertain its verifiability) to help them distinguish between citations from the NYT, the Huff Po, Globes, and TheMarker (and, in future edits, RT, etc). The overkill/ clutter will be cleaned-up in the final version after citations from all (verifiable) sources are included in the article, in accordance with WP:Citation overkill.
Note that all recent edits have been direct citations, including direct quotes, from verifiable, reliable, published secondary sources. However, in the past (e.g. April 27), after similar (but much smaller scale) citations from the same sources were posted to the article, they have been immediately reverted under the reason of "promotional material that has sourcing problems".
If any editors feels there are any perceived sourcing problems with the NYT, HuffPo, Globes, TheMarker or RT, feel free to discuss on this talk page. But any perceived problem is not a reason to delete the edits.
Additionally, please note that according to Wikipedia policies and regulations, sources themselves do not need to maintain a neutral point of view; indeed many reliable sources are not neutral. Our job as editors is simply to present what the reliable sources say.
"It is a frequent misunderstanding of the WP:NPOV policy, often expressed by newbies, visitors, and outside critics, that articles must not contain any form of bias, hence their efforts to remove statements they perceive as biased. The WP:NPOV policy does forbid the inclusion of (Wikipedia) editorial bias, but does not forbid properly sourced bias. Without the inclusion and documentation of bias in the real world, many of our articles would fail to document the sum total of human knowledge, and would be rather "blah" reading, devoid of much meaningful and interesting content. "
Neutrality - Further information: WP:NPOV "All articles must adhere to the Neutral point of view policy (NPOV), fairly representing all majority and significant-minority viewpoints published by reliable sources, in rough proportion to the prominence of each view. Tiny-minority views need not be included, except in articles devoted to them. Where there is disagreement between sources, use in-text attribution: "John Smith argues that X, while Paul Jones maintains that Y," followed by an inline citation. Sources themselves do not need to maintain a neutral point of view; indeed many reliable sources are not neutral. Our job as editors is simply to present what the reliable sources say."
Perceived lack of neutrality as an excuse to delete:
"The neutrality policy is used sometimes as an excuse to delete text that is perceived as biased. Isn't this a problem?
"Editors have different ideas about how Wikipedia should look "today". Some want it to be as fault-free as possible, even if that means cutting mediocre content; others think that all but the most serious flaws should be allowed to stand so they can be improved.
"While the burden of establishing verifiability and reliability rests on those who are challenged about it, there is usually no need to immediately delete text that can instead be rewritten as necessary over time. Obvious exceptions are articles about living people or clear vandalism, but generally there is no need for text to meet the highest standards of neutrality today if there's a reasonable chance of getting there.
"Also, determining whether a claim is true or useful, particularly when few people know about the topic, often requires a more involved process to get the opinions of other editors. It's a good idea to raise objections on a talk page or at a relevant WikiProject. Discussing contentious claims helps editors to evaluate their accuracy and often leads to better sourcing and clearer phrasing.
"Especially contentious text can be removed to the talk page if necessary, but only as a last resort, and never just deleted."
Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 20:55, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Bob, I appreciate the feedback. I fully believe you have the best of intentions.
Please note that, as indicated in the (long-ish) comment above, deleting whole sections wholesale, without prior discussion, is not "the Wikipedia way". It is much better to discuss first on the talk page.
Did you get a chance to read my comment above before quickly deleting the section?
Yes, wikipedia editors' bias is a reason to delete (sections of or whole) articles, but are you aware that journalists' (perceived or real) bias is not a sufficient reason to delete (sections of) articles? [As long as the (secondary) sources are verifiable and reliable, which in this case they are.]
Could you please provide more details as to the reasoning behind your action, as I don't fully understand your reasoning for arbitrarily removing the 'Criticism' section without debate.
You wrote: "giant copypasta is bad. Giant cherrypicked copypasta is even worse."
Bob, did you even get a chance to read the lengthy discussion in the Talk page (on the Talk page of the TZM article), a discussion which took place over the last few months, and especially over the last 3 weeks, and did you fully read the four articles from which the 'Criticism' section was cited/ quoted?
You were not involved in the discussions on this Talk page at all, at least not over the last 3 (critical) weeks, which implies you may not be aware of the depth, subtleties and nuances of the discussion, and suddenly you show up out of nowhere and delete whole sections wholesale.
If you would have studied the Talk page and the articles carefully, you would have noticed the following:
Below is the text of the section removed by Bob. Feedback on this is welcome, or, of course, all editors are welcome to go ahead and edit the section based on their own understanding of the four published articles cited below (or other verifiable, reliable, secondary sources).
−
IjonTichyIjonTichy, please don't add these enormous walls of text to the article, or to the talk page for that matter. It might be easier to follow if you just made a small edit, like one simple sentence, and cited the source for it. Then let it sit for a day or two, so people can have a look at it. Tom Harrison Talk 22:47, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
The page history is really hard to follow with these complex partial proposals, promises of other citations later, citations seemilgly without associated text, and self-reverts. Maybe working on a sub-page in your user space would be more convenient. Tom Harrison Talk 22:51, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Dear Tom, you completely, fully, willfully ignored my request above to discuss before taking any major actions, and instead you proceeded to perform your usual, routine, seemingly favorite, habitual action: easy, quick reach for the 'delete' button.
You also willfully ignored the explanation above that this deletion is in violation of wikipedia rules and regulations, and is not "The Wikipedia Way".
And your request for posting one sentence at a time is incredibly unrealistic, because at that rate, it would take years to add even a single paragraph to the article. Especially considering all your recent repeated, automatic deletions of citations from verifiable, reliable, mainstream, published, secondary sources.
In effect, your actions and your comments (which almost never seem to address the substance of my edits, only the style and other relatively minor, peripheral, marginal issues --- and, furthermore, you do not seem to have contributed any major, substantial, constructive edits [except for that pathetic attempt to cite from a source that redirects to the John Birch Society ]), your actions and your comments amount to nothing more than (intentional or unintentional - it does not matter at this relatively late point in time) delay tactics to prevent, or at least very significantly and unnecessarily delay, the full development of this article.
IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 23:29, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Resource-based economic model. — Jeraphine Gryphon ( talk) 02:03, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
^This could really use some attention from editors who aren't on Wikipedia for the main purpose of promoting their views. — Jeraphine Gryphon ( talk) 04:17, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Dear Bobrayner, from the first sentence of our article (and also from the main website of TZM, which states: "Mission Statement --- Founded in 2008, The Zeitgeist Movement is a Sustainability Advocacy Organization ..."), it would seem OK to include pictures of nature. Also, TZM advocates for a resource-based economy, and oceans are considered a resource.
Would it be OK with you if I re-instated the picture?
Was there something else about the picture that was problematic? If you feel it interfered with the text, I'll shift the picture to another location in the article.
IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 15:24, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Too much material has been removed from these 3 (relatively non-major) sections, photos and portals. Based on reading the edit summaries, I believe that in some cases, there may be some misunderstanding, as several editors seem to have indicated that some of the material that was removed is not directly related to TZM, or not at all related to TZM, or has zero relation to TZM. Please note that everything that is related to RBE is related to TZM, even if it does not mention TZM explicitly. From viewing the many tens of hours of TZM videos (e.g. on their website and on their YouTube channel) and TZM television appearances, from listening to their audio broadcasts, from reading the posts on the TZM blog and from some of the published independent sources (e.g. TheMarker, Globes, and other sources), it appears that TZM members seem to try to make it very clear that RBE is more important than TZM.
Whenever I have time in the next few days or weeks, or whenever any other editor who may be interested may have time, I would like to re-instate a very significant portion (not all) of the material that was removed from these three sections, all 3 photos, and some of the portals.
For example, the terms 'renewable energy', 'sustainable development' and 'sustainability' appear several times in the article, and each appearance of these terms is supported by references to verifiable, reliable sources. Renewable energy, the natural world and sustainability of resources are key concepts of resource-based economy and thus are among the key defining characteristics of TZM. The natural world is also considered a resource (including, say, oceans). [And note that the logo of TZM, featured on the TZM article, is an image of Earth.] Thus, the 3 deleted photos are valid, relevant and appropriate to the article. The same goes for most of the portals that have been removed. (Ref [1], The HuffPo, mentions renewable (or renewability) 1 time, sustainable (or sustainability) 6 times. Ref [2], RBE - The Venus Project, mentions renewable (or renewability) 3 times, environment 2 times. Ref [3], The Palm Beach Post, mentions environment 2 times. Ref [5], TheMarker, mentions r 1 time, s 2 times, e 1 time. Ref [6], Globes, mentions r 1 time, s 1 time, r 1 time.)
For another example, the 'See also' links Criticism of capitalism and L. Susan Brown were included by previous consensus among several editors on this talk page (Ankh Morpork, AndyTheGrump, Tom harrison, and myself, among others).
As a third example, please note that the 'See also' style manual states:
If there are any concerns or other issues, I'll be glad to read your comments.
Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 16:59, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
(Obviously the following annotations are too long and will be condensed in the final versions)
IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 13:59, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Those sections were incredibly huge and unwieldy. They needed to be trimmed. A large swath was removed. The burden of proof should be on the person re-introducing them. We can't just add in everything that might be tangentially related to the ZGM. For practical purposes it was just too huge and of no use to our readers. Pic the top absolutely most important and go with those.
In regards BSD and Anarchism and issues related to love and sex, those are far too tangential. If someone at one time asked a question about Jacques Cartier, does that mean we should have a link for him under see also? And remember, this article is not about a RBE. It's about the TZM's advocacy of a RBE. There's a huge difference. Criticism sections should be about TGM and their views. Not about the larger issues they bring up. This is the same as any other page. For instance, a religious organization could have a "criticism" sections and include anything that might potentially fall under the broader discussions relating to religion (which could be a lot of things). Same thing goes for Further Reading. If there's a book or article dealing with TGM, then add them. Adding sources that just talk about RBE or broader social or economic issues is too broad. -- Harizotoh9 ( talk) 16:47, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Jeraphine, RBE calls for the repeal of capitalism. That's why I included a (somewhat/relatively extensive) defense of capitalism. IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 15:36, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
It's WP:Coatrack. Article should focus on Zeitgeist movement, and not all the tangential issues it raises. -- Harizotoh9 ( talk) 22:50, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
RT TV has asked loads of very good questions. Sure. But how is that criticism? It's questions. I assume the questions went unanswered, but it doesn't say so. Can that section be rescued somehow? As it is now it doesn't make any sense. -- OpenFuture ( talk) 20:13, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
This article is full of tedious promotional language like "a sustainable future where humanity is not united by religious or political ideology, but by the scientific method, venerated as the savior that can develop a system of human equality, thriving from the cooperation and balance of technology and nature" and "a world of abundance, where everything is available to everyone, a world where success is not determined by the digits in people's bank accounts." A very limited amount of that usefully tells a careful the reader something about the Movement, but there's far too much. Most of it needs to go, as do the over-long quotes. Also excessive are the external links other than one to the official site. Nor is this page part of a series on Automation, as a template says. Tom Harrison Talk 20:59, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
The Huffington Post, [1] The New York Times [2], The Palm Beach Post [3], Globes, [4] TheMarker, [5] The Orlando Sentinel, [6] RT TV, [7] [8] and TheMarkerTV [9] discussed various aspects of criticism of the Zeitgeist movement, for example allegations of utopianism, reduced work incentives in an RBE and practical difficulties in a transition to an RBE. (In each case, members of the movement were given an opportunity to respond to the criticism.)
Thank you to everyone who contributes to the 'Criticism' section of the article. (Or to any section of the article.)
I would like to ask two questions (although the second question may not belong on this talk page):
1. Does criticism of the documentary Zeitgeist: The Movie belong in this article, or does it belong in the article Zeitgeist: The Movie?
(The following question probably belongs on the talk page of Zeitgeist: The Movie and not on this talk page):
2. Our other sources (NYT, Huffington Post, Palm Beach Post, the two Israeli business journals Globes and TheMarker, RT TV interviews and the Israeli TheMarker TV interview) did not characterize the documentary Zeitgeist: The Movie as anti-Jewish. If the documentary was (reasonably, not to mention widely) believed to be anti-Jewish within the (Hebrew-speaking, or English-speaking, or global) Jewish community, would it not be reasonable to assume that, at the very least, the two Israeli papers and the Israeli TV interview would characterize the movie as anti-Jewish? After all, the lede of our article on Israel states: "Israel is defined as a Jewish and Democratic State in its Basic Laws and is the world's only Jewish-majority state."
Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 16:33, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
0. The only reason my comments are long is that the piece in Tablet is very long, and there are many things wrong with it.
1. Please refrain from personal attacks. They do not contribute to the discussion. My two comments above have not attacked any editor, nor do I have any intention whatsoever to attack any editor. The only things I attacked in my comment above (and below) are the specific article in Tablet, and the author of the Tablet article, Michelle Goldberg. She has lied in the article, and she has concealed inconvenient truths, and she has distorted and twisted other truths, as I've shown above (and below). But I have not attacked, nor do I have any intention of attacking, any WP editor(s). On the contrary, I have complemented and encouraged and supported, and will continue to complement and encourage and support, all efforts to improve the 'criticism' section (as well as all sections of the article).
2. Criticism of the movie(s) belongs in the articles on the movies, not here. For the reasons I outlined above: conflating criticism of the movies with this article is likely to lead to serious escalation, edit wars, and all sorts of other highly undesirable consequences.
3. The main body of the article already mentions the three Zeitgeist movies, and provides links to the movies, enabling the reader to explore further.
4. If we begin duplicating material between the article for the first movie and this article, why only stop at Michelle Goldberg's unfounded accusation of anti-semitism? Once we open the door, it would be impossible to close it. Editors could justifiably demand that the entire criticism section of all 3 Zeitgeist movies be copied and pasted in this article.
5. Then, I would insist on copying all the positive things that were said about the three movies in our sources, and in all the sources on the articles on the article on the 3 movies, and pasting them in this article.
6. And so on and so forth. This process of copying and pasting can continue. That's why any criticism of any of the movies should be included in the article on that movie, not in this article.
7. The Tablet article is not reliable. It focuses mostly on extremely negative, paranoia-like criticisms that are not supported, nor even mentioned, by our reliable sources. Michelle Goldberg focuses mostly on wild, un-supported accusations of anti-Semitic tropes and anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, followed by a lengthy discussion of how Jared L. Loughner was influenced by the first Zeitgeist movie. Michelle Goldberg then lies about what she wrote previously about the original Zeitgeist film, then she compares the first movie to The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and she states empty, un-supported allegations accusing TZM of Jew-baiting, and more allegations accusing TZM of anti-Semitism piled on top of additional accusations of anti-semitism.
Goldberg then directly quotes the New York Times' article on the Zeitgeist movement but dishonestly, fraudulently neglecting to include in her quote any mention whatsoever of the following key sentences from the NYT article, because these sentences contradict her deeply biased, distorted, twisted POV:
Goldberg then piles on even more accusations, again accusing TZM of Jew-baiting, and ending with accusations that TZM holds a Nazi view.
8. None of our reliable sources (NYT, Huffington Post, Palm Beach Post, Orlando Sentinel, Globes, TheMarker, RT Television, TheMarker Television), which include two Israeli publications and a Israeli TV channel, come even close to mentioning, not to say supporting, these extreme, crazy, fraudulent, mendacious, lie-based, distortion-based characterizations of TZM
9. None of the other criticisms of the first movie in reliable sources (Irish Times, etc.) support Goldberg's fraudulent, delusional accusations
10. Literally thousands of articles have been written in hundreds of highly reliable sources around the globe over the last 6 years accusing Wall Street (and global) bankers of malfeasance. This includes all major Israeli newspapers, almost all major American papers including the NYT, Wall Street Journal, NY Post, Philadelphia Inquirer, Boston Globe, Seattle Papers, San Francisco Chronicle, Los Angeles Times, international papers such as The Financial Times, The Guardian, The Independent (UK), other top newspapers and journals in the United Kingdom, and top papers and journals in France, spain, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, Russia, China, and literally almost each and every country in the world.
If Michelle Goldberg's analysis is a reliable source, then the authors of all these articles in reliable sources are anti-semites and Nazis. And so are all the participants in Occupy Wall Street, etc.
11. Unlike all our reliable sources, Michelle Goldberg has conveniently neglected to provide TZM with sufficient opportunity to respond to Goldberg's insane, bizarre, deranged allegations; she has not even reviewed the many tens of hours of TZM videos to find counter-arguments to balance her lunatic, delirious accusations. She did not have even the basic decency to make an attempt to provide even a semblance of balance and fairness.
12. The Tablet piece by Goldberg has all the classic hallmarks of an un-supported hit-piece/ attack piece/ hack job, with a biased, fraudulent, dishonest and radical agenda. It is a clear attempt to profit from shrill, paranoia-based fear mongering and hate mongering, with no serious attempt at journalistic balance or objectivity.
13. Is that the standard we want to lower Wikipedia to?
I invite other editors to comment. And I re-iterate my compliments, respect and support for all WP editors.
IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 13:17, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
As commented before endlessly repeating the same things in a lengthy rhetorical style goes in circles and makes the talk page difficult. 11. Unlike all our reliable sources, Michelle Goldberg has conveniently neglected to provide TZM with sufficient opportunity to respond to Goldberg's insane, bizarre, deranged allegations; she has not even reviewed the many tens of hours of TZM videos to find counter-arguments to balance her lunatic, delirious accusations. End Quote IjonTichyIjonTichy There is a problem here because, as an advocate member of Zeitgeist wanting to portray information in a certain way, it becomes one sided advocacy instead of just balanced information. Being unabashed in your endorsement of the abstract ideas and program of Zeitgeist does not make for a balanced article. There are hundreds of sources that say that Zeitgeist is based on far right principles from the original movie. The original movie is the source of the movement. That can be in the critical portion of the article. In 2009 a German social networking site, studiVZ, did ban Zeitgeist groups because of what they characterized as their implicit anti-Semitism. That was a news story at the time. Earl King Jr. ( talk) 01:03, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
huffpost
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).nytimes
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).PalmBeachPost
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Globes20100318
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).TheMarker20120119
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).OrlandoSentinel1995
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
"... The movement campaigns against the "monetary-market" economy which they argue should be replaced with a resource-based economy in which money would serve no purpose. The movement is critical of fractional reserve banking ..." This is confusing. Isn't the latter part of this quote somewhat redundant? Fractional-reserve banking is a subset of banking, which, in turn, is a subset of a monetary-market economy. Since the movement advocates against the monetary market economy - the superset - and argues for its replacement with an economy without money, then the movement automatically advocates for the abolition of subsets such as all forms of banking, including sub-subsets such as fractional reserve banking... I propose shortening the above to: "The movement advocates against the "monetary-market" economy which they argue should be replaced with a resource-based economy in which money would serve no purpose." Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 00:17, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
"The Zeitgeist Movement was inspired by Peter Joseph's film Zeitgeist: Addendum,[2] the latter of which described The Venus Project as a possible solution." I'm confused by the term 'the latter of which'. What does 'the latter' refer to? Does it refer to the latter portion of the film, as opposed to the former portion of the movie? Or does it try to distinguish between Peter Joseph and his film? I think the sentence would be clearer if the term 'the latter of which' was removed entirely. IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 00:44, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
The descriptions/ analysis from Globes, TheMarker and the NYT are provided by the journalists; these citations cite the journalists, not TZM members. They cite what the journalists reported to their readers, not what the TZM members told the journalists. Also note that in the RT interviews the journalist (Lauren Lyster) makes specific allegations/ challenges (for example challenging the TZM member on utopia, technological unemployment, etc.) Regards,
IjonTichyIjonTichy (
talk)
11:01, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Why were my additions to 'See Also' removed? These links to wiki pages satisfy wikipedia:see also. No explanation was provided for this arbitrary removal of valid material. This was not a proper action. A careful reading and close study of Anarchist communism, Communalism (political philosophy), Direct democracy and Technological unemployment would reveal that these come very close to describing TZM's ideas/ positions. So why were they removed? By the way, they were added separately originally, in a separate edit from, for example, the citing of journalistic sources. So even if there was an issue with the other edits, there's no excuse this time to delete these additions to 'See Also'. One cannot escape the thought that perhaps these wiki pages were not read at all (or perhaps not read properly, maybe there was a comprehension problem?) before a quick, convenient, easy reach for the 'delete' button.... Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 11:36, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
May I suggest that editors please study the materials carefully, go over them a few times to improve comprehension and understanding. Further study could help the reader realize that the citations are valid (verifiable). Thanks.
IjonTichyIjonTichy (
talk)
11:36, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Please note that the allegations that the edits are 'promotional' and that the edits suffer from a 'sourcing problem' are absolutely ridiculous. These characterizations of the edits are baseless, unjustified and unsupported by the facts, since these published sources are independent and verifiable, and since these sources contain both a description of some of TZM's positions as well as severe criticism of these positions. And please see my comment above regarding the edits to 'See Also.' If anything, the rampant censorship on this page is promotional and problematic - promoting the POV of the censor(s), which deleted valid, verifiable citings from reliable indep. sources. Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 14:14, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
"... the form this 'something else' would take seems to veer from 'a dictatorship of the machinery' to anarcho-geekist utopianism, without ever actually being explicitly defined. Until TZM tell the world what they stand for in comprehensible language, Wikipedia can't."
In the sequel, I'll list a large number of sources. Before rushing to respond that these sources are not verifiable and should be disqualified from citing on this wiki page, please note that I'm not implying that all, or any, of these sources should be directly cited on this TZM wiki page. I'm providing these sources/ references as part of my response to the comment above to help the editor find his own answers to his questions, not necessarily as a suggestion for inclusion on the page available to the general public. (End of Disclaimer.)
From spending many tens of hours (a) viewing the dozens of TZM lectures, documentaries, presentations, town-hall meetings, Q&A sessions (post town-hall meetings, post-presentations, etc.), (b) reading the materials on the TZM website (including e.g. their Q&A, the TZM blog postings, their newsletters, their weekly audio podcasts, etc.), (c) studying the references which were deleted from my April 27 edits, (d) translating the Hebrew articles into English (the translation of the TheMarker article will be posted in a few days), (e) studying the materials on The Venus Project website, (f) studying the book by Jacque Fresco, (g) and more, from a careful study of all these sources, it seems TZM does not claim to have all the details of all the solutions to all the world's problems. They seem to admit, in several different places, that the solutions they advocate are general, big-picture in nature. The movement seems to believe that its proposed solutions are more of an overview of the solution, a general description of the outline of the solutions, than an attempt to provide explicit details. They seem to claim they are an educational/ awareness organization that, at least up to date, has seemingly focused, they claim, mostly on trying to articulate what they believe is the problem, why they believe these are problems, what, in their view, is the impact of these problems on humanity, and a general overview of what they believe is the solution.
They seem to claim that the fine details of their proposed solutions, the more explicit details, should be worked out by qualified people --- engineers, scientists, physicians, skilled workers, teachers, artists, etc. --- and not by filmmakers (such as the creator of the Zeitgeist film series), not by supporters of TZM or TVP, and not by politicians, lawyers, bankers, corporate CEOs, etc. The movement seems to advocate that only people who have specific, proven, verifiable knowledge and skills in specific areas should contribute to these areas. TZM seems to claim that the process of providing the necessary details of the solutions should be the domain of the creative, innovative forces within humanity itself - and not the domain TZM. They also seem to believe that this process will be continuous, evolving, emergent, never-ending, without a finality. They seem to believe that the process of solving humanity's problems will be an adaptive process, always adapting to new innovations and new discoveries in science, technology, the arts, education, healthcare, etc. They seem to believe that, as a result of all of the above, nobody can provide the explicit details, indeed that nobody should provide the details; they seem to believe that it would be futile, impractical, impossible and a waste of time to attempt to articulate, at this time, the details of the solutions, because, as already mentioned above, they believe that the scientifically correct - i.e., scientific-method-based - solutions need to emerge naturally and evolve and adapt to rapid changes, as already mentioned above. Moreover, they seem to claim they believe in a flat (horizontal) method of decision making (similar, they seem to claim to believe, to an adhocracy, wikipedia, BSD, bottom-up decision making, etc.) and thus it seems they believe that it would be against their core principles to advocate for imposing, from above, any precise details of the solutions (for example, the precise details of the role of machines in decision making).
In summary, TZM seems to believe that they are trying to tell the world what they stand for in a comprehensible language (although they claim they are open to feedback in order to continue to improve the comprehension of their positions/ ideas). However, at the same time, TZM seems to believe that their solutions cannot be - moreover, should not be - too explicitly defined: they seem to believe that it is best to leave it up to you, and everybody else you know, and indeed everybody else in the world, all working cooperatively and in solidarity, to decide, in a truly democratic fashion, (but without the interference and limitations imposed, in their view, by financial considerations, or imposed by any form of top-down decision making, or imposed by any movements, including TZM), on more explicit definitions of their (currently more generalized) proposed solutions.
I hope this helps. But please note that, as explained above, an attempt to pin-point precisely, with almost-infinite precision, the explicit details of TZM's solutions, i.e., an attempt to remove all ambiguity and individual interpretation and individual understanding of TZM's solutions, is doomed to fail from the start, by definition, and would only result in further lengthy delay of the development of this wiki page. Wikipedia pages are not written to accomplish the impossible dream that each and every reader of the same page must reach the same exact understanding, insights and comprehension of the subject. Fully uniform understanding/ comprehension of Wikipedia subjects does not seem to be a goal of Wikipedia. Instead, from quickly browsing wiki policies/ rules/ regulations regarding citing references/ sources, it seems the kind of potential contradictions, potential lack of full comprehension of the topic, potential lack of full understanding of the subject, potential lack of full (100%) clarity, are not rare in Wikipedia. In other words, it seems that some reasonable level of potential ambiguity in Wikipedia subjects is normal, a somewhat expected and relatively common occurrence, and should not be used as a reason for wholesale, easily-accomplished, quick deletion of valid citations from verifiable, independent, published sources, and removal of valid additions to the 'See Also' section.
As I already mentioned, in the next few days I will post the translation of the TheMarker article. After that, in an effort to move the editing process forward instead of continuing to spend enormous amounts of time on responding to comments, I would like to invite all editors to propose specific citations and quotations [of the journalists, not TZM members] from our numerous existing verifiable sources for inclusion on this TZM wiki page. (I'm referring to the verifiable sources which have been deleted wholesale from my April 27 edits: the translations of the Globes and TheMarker articles, the NYT article, The HuffPo article, the 3 RT interviews, etc.)
Best, IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 18:32, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
Feedback is solicited on the following suggested edit.
I propose the following be inserted inside 'Activities', as follows:
Until a split in 2011, the ....
The basic principles, ideas and positions of the movement are described/ discussed in the following sources: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8]
The Zeitgeist Movement stages an annual event called ....
(The spaces between the reference numbers above will be removed, of course.)
Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 15:44, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
Tom and Ankh, to clarify my suggestion above:
Activities
Until a split in 2011, the movement acted as the activist arm of The Venus Project, [9] and still advocates for a global society where resources are sustainably shared, because they view the current economic system as the cause of the greatest social problems. [10]
The positions of the movement are described/ discussed in the following sources: [1] [2] [3] [4] [11] [6] [7] [12]
The Zeitgeist Movement stages an annual event called "ZDay" in March. The first ZDay was on March 15, 2009. The main event in New York City had a sold-out crowd of around 900 at the Borough of Manhattan Community College. [13] The 2010 event took place on March 13. A 6-hour live web cast of lectures from the movement's key figures took place in New York City. [10] The 2011 main event was held in London, [14] and the 2012 main event was held in Vancouver. [15]
However, if I understand correctly, Ankh may be suggesting that the above proposed edit is improper. To address Ankh's feedback, as a next step, I could propose another set of suggested edits. (Of course, all other editors are invited to propose their own edits, if they wish to do so; for example, other editors may choose to [or may choose not to] base their suggested edits on the sources listed in the proposed edit above ...) Best, IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 23:48, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
{{
cite web}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
nytimes
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).The change seems to be the addition of "The positions of the movement are described/discussed in the following sources:" followed by half a dozen links. I don't see a reason for that. There are links to the movement's site in External links. The reader interested in the positions of the movement can follow them. Tom Harrison Talk 00:24, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Thanks, Tom. On a future date, I'll propose another set of suggested edits for inclusion in the 'Activities' section. My suggested edits will rely heavily on citations and quotations from the references listed above. If any editor is opposed to my citations from these verifiable, published, independent, secondary sources (with the exception of the Q&A, which is a primary source), I would like to ask that the editor please provide his own suggestion of alternative citations or quotes from these sources. However, if an editor is opposed to any citations or quotes from these verifiable secondary sources and feels these sources should not be used at all for citations or quotations in the 'Activities' section, I would like that editor to please explain. IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 02:38, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Feedback is solicited on the recent
WP:BRD cycle: the article has been revised with a suggested set of edits. All citations and quotes in the current set of proposed edits are from the New York Times, and only from the NYT.
[Future proposed edits will be based on citations from the remaining set of secondary sources listed above (Huffington Post, TheMarker, Globes, 5 RT interviews, ...). For now, I'm experimenting with basing each newly-proposed set of edits on citations from one, and only one, additional (verifiable, of course) source. This time it's the NYT; the second set of proposed edits will add citations from a second source to build on top of the first set of suggested edits; and so on.]
Best, IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 05:01, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
A second set of suggested edits has been posted, containing citations from the Huffington Post. Regretfully the proposed edit contains a citation overkill which vastly clutters the page, but this is done only to help editors (who might be interested in scrutinizing each and every cited word or phrase to ascertain its verifiability) to distinguish between citations from the NYT and the Huff Po (and, in future edits, TheMarker, Globes, RT, etc). The overkill/ clutter will be eliminated in the final version after citations from all (verifiable) sources are included in the article, as per
WP:Citation overkill.
IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 11:47, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
A third set of suggested edits has been posted, containing citations from the English translation of the Globes article. IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 18:05, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
A fourth set of suggested edits has been posted, containing citations from the English translation of the TheMarker article.
Regretfully the proposed edit contains a citation overkill which vastly clutters the page, but this is done only to help editors (in case any editors might be interested in scrutinizing each and every cited word or phrase to ascertain its verifiability) to help them distinguish between citations from the NYT, the Huff Po, Globes, and TheMarker (and, in future edits, RT, etc). The overkill/ clutter will be cleaned-up in the final version after citations from all (verifiable) sources are included in the article, in accordance with WP:Citation overkill.
Note that all recent edits have been direct citations, including direct quotes, from verifiable, reliable, published secondary sources. However, in the past (e.g. April 27), after similar (but much smaller scale) citations from the same sources were posted to the article, they have been immediately reverted under the reason of "promotional material that has sourcing problems".
If any editors feels there are any perceived sourcing problems with the NYT, HuffPo, Globes, TheMarker or RT, feel free to discuss on this talk page. But any perceived problem is not a reason to delete the edits.
Additionally, please note that according to Wikipedia policies and regulations, sources themselves do not need to maintain a neutral point of view; indeed many reliable sources are not neutral. Our job as editors is simply to present what the reliable sources say.
"It is a frequent misunderstanding of the WP:NPOV policy, often expressed by newbies, visitors, and outside critics, that articles must not contain any form of bias, hence their efforts to remove statements they perceive as biased. The WP:NPOV policy does forbid the inclusion of (Wikipedia) editorial bias, but does not forbid properly sourced bias. Without the inclusion and documentation of bias in the real world, many of our articles would fail to document the sum total of human knowledge, and would be rather "blah" reading, devoid of much meaningful and interesting content. "
Neutrality - Further information: WP:NPOV "All articles must adhere to the Neutral point of view policy (NPOV), fairly representing all majority and significant-minority viewpoints published by reliable sources, in rough proportion to the prominence of each view. Tiny-minority views need not be included, except in articles devoted to them. Where there is disagreement between sources, use in-text attribution: "John Smith argues that X, while Paul Jones maintains that Y," followed by an inline citation. Sources themselves do not need to maintain a neutral point of view; indeed many reliable sources are not neutral. Our job as editors is simply to present what the reliable sources say."
Perceived lack of neutrality as an excuse to delete:
"The neutrality policy is used sometimes as an excuse to delete text that is perceived as biased. Isn't this a problem?
"Editors have different ideas about how Wikipedia should look "today". Some want it to be as fault-free as possible, even if that means cutting mediocre content; others think that all but the most serious flaws should be allowed to stand so they can be improved.
"While the burden of establishing verifiability and reliability rests on those who are challenged about it, there is usually no need to immediately delete text that can instead be rewritten as necessary over time. Obvious exceptions are articles about living people or clear vandalism, but generally there is no need for text to meet the highest standards of neutrality today if there's a reasonable chance of getting there.
"Also, determining whether a claim is true or useful, particularly when few people know about the topic, often requires a more involved process to get the opinions of other editors. It's a good idea to raise objections on a talk page or at a relevant WikiProject. Discussing contentious claims helps editors to evaluate their accuracy and often leads to better sourcing and clearer phrasing.
"Especially contentious text can be removed to the talk page if necessary, but only as a last resort, and never just deleted."
Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 20:55, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Bob, I appreciate the feedback. I fully believe you have the best of intentions.
Please note that, as indicated in the (long-ish) comment above, deleting whole sections wholesale, without prior discussion, is not "the Wikipedia way". It is much better to discuss first on the talk page.
Did you get a chance to read my comment above before quickly deleting the section?
Yes, wikipedia editors' bias is a reason to delete (sections of or whole) articles, but are you aware that journalists' (perceived or real) bias is not a sufficient reason to delete (sections of) articles? [As long as the (secondary) sources are verifiable and reliable, which in this case they are.]
Could you please provide more details as to the reasoning behind your action, as I don't fully understand your reasoning for arbitrarily removing the 'Criticism' section without debate.
You wrote: "giant copypasta is bad. Giant cherrypicked copypasta is even worse."
Bob, did you even get a chance to read the lengthy discussion in the Talk page (on the Talk page of the TZM article), a discussion which took place over the last few months, and especially over the last 3 weeks, and did you fully read the four articles from which the 'Criticism' section was cited/ quoted?
You were not involved in the discussions on this Talk page at all, at least not over the last 3 (critical) weeks, which implies you may not be aware of the depth, subtleties and nuances of the discussion, and suddenly you show up out of nowhere and delete whole sections wholesale.
If you would have studied the Talk page and the articles carefully, you would have noticed the following:
Below is the text of the section removed by Bob. Feedback on this is welcome, or, of course, all editors are welcome to go ahead and edit the section based on their own understanding of the four published articles cited below (or other verifiable, reliable, secondary sources).
−
IjonTichyIjonTichy, please don't add these enormous walls of text to the article, or to the talk page for that matter. It might be easier to follow if you just made a small edit, like one simple sentence, and cited the source for it. Then let it sit for a day or two, so people can have a look at it. Tom Harrison Talk 22:47, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
The page history is really hard to follow with these complex partial proposals, promises of other citations later, citations seemilgly without associated text, and self-reverts. Maybe working on a sub-page in your user space would be more convenient. Tom Harrison Talk 22:51, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Dear Tom, you completely, fully, willfully ignored my request above to discuss before taking any major actions, and instead you proceeded to perform your usual, routine, seemingly favorite, habitual action: easy, quick reach for the 'delete' button.
You also willfully ignored the explanation above that this deletion is in violation of wikipedia rules and regulations, and is not "The Wikipedia Way".
And your request for posting one sentence at a time is incredibly unrealistic, because at that rate, it would take years to add even a single paragraph to the article. Especially considering all your recent repeated, automatic deletions of citations from verifiable, reliable, mainstream, published, secondary sources.
In effect, your actions and your comments (which almost never seem to address the substance of my edits, only the style and other relatively minor, peripheral, marginal issues --- and, furthermore, you do not seem to have contributed any major, substantial, constructive edits [except for that pathetic attempt to cite from a source that redirects to the John Birch Society ]), your actions and your comments amount to nothing more than (intentional or unintentional - it does not matter at this relatively late point in time) delay tactics to prevent, or at least very significantly and unnecessarily delay, the full development of this article.
IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 23:29, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Resource-based economic model. — Jeraphine Gryphon ( talk) 02:03, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
^This could really use some attention from editors who aren't on Wikipedia for the main purpose of promoting their views. — Jeraphine Gryphon ( talk) 04:17, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Dear Bobrayner, from the first sentence of our article (and also from the main website of TZM, which states: "Mission Statement --- Founded in 2008, The Zeitgeist Movement is a Sustainability Advocacy Organization ..."), it would seem OK to include pictures of nature. Also, TZM advocates for a resource-based economy, and oceans are considered a resource.
Would it be OK with you if I re-instated the picture?
Was there something else about the picture that was problematic? If you feel it interfered with the text, I'll shift the picture to another location in the article.
IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 15:24, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Too much material has been removed from these 3 (relatively non-major) sections, photos and portals. Based on reading the edit summaries, I believe that in some cases, there may be some misunderstanding, as several editors seem to have indicated that some of the material that was removed is not directly related to TZM, or not at all related to TZM, or has zero relation to TZM. Please note that everything that is related to RBE is related to TZM, even if it does not mention TZM explicitly. From viewing the many tens of hours of TZM videos (e.g. on their website and on their YouTube channel) and TZM television appearances, from listening to their audio broadcasts, from reading the posts on the TZM blog and from some of the published independent sources (e.g. TheMarker, Globes, and other sources), it appears that TZM members seem to try to make it very clear that RBE is more important than TZM.
Whenever I have time in the next few days or weeks, or whenever any other editor who may be interested may have time, I would like to re-instate a very significant portion (not all) of the material that was removed from these three sections, all 3 photos, and some of the portals.
For example, the terms 'renewable energy', 'sustainable development' and 'sustainability' appear several times in the article, and each appearance of these terms is supported by references to verifiable, reliable sources. Renewable energy, the natural world and sustainability of resources are key concepts of resource-based economy and thus are among the key defining characteristics of TZM. The natural world is also considered a resource (including, say, oceans). [And note that the logo of TZM, featured on the TZM article, is an image of Earth.] Thus, the 3 deleted photos are valid, relevant and appropriate to the article. The same goes for most of the portals that have been removed. (Ref [1], The HuffPo, mentions renewable (or renewability) 1 time, sustainable (or sustainability) 6 times. Ref [2], RBE - The Venus Project, mentions renewable (or renewability) 3 times, environment 2 times. Ref [3], The Palm Beach Post, mentions environment 2 times. Ref [5], TheMarker, mentions r 1 time, s 2 times, e 1 time. Ref [6], Globes, mentions r 1 time, s 1 time, r 1 time.)
For another example, the 'See also' links Criticism of capitalism and L. Susan Brown were included by previous consensus among several editors on this talk page (Ankh Morpork, AndyTheGrump, Tom harrison, and myself, among others).
As a third example, please note that the 'See also' style manual states:
If there are any concerns or other issues, I'll be glad to read your comments.
Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 16:59, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
(Obviously the following annotations are too long and will be condensed in the final versions)
IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 13:59, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Those sections were incredibly huge and unwieldy. They needed to be trimmed. A large swath was removed. The burden of proof should be on the person re-introducing them. We can't just add in everything that might be tangentially related to the ZGM. For practical purposes it was just too huge and of no use to our readers. Pic the top absolutely most important and go with those.
In regards BSD and Anarchism and issues related to love and sex, those are far too tangential. If someone at one time asked a question about Jacques Cartier, does that mean we should have a link for him under see also? And remember, this article is not about a RBE. It's about the TZM's advocacy of a RBE. There's a huge difference. Criticism sections should be about TGM and their views. Not about the larger issues they bring up. This is the same as any other page. For instance, a religious organization could have a "criticism" sections and include anything that might potentially fall under the broader discussions relating to religion (which could be a lot of things). Same thing goes for Further Reading. If there's a book or article dealing with TGM, then add them. Adding sources that just talk about RBE or broader social or economic issues is too broad. -- Harizotoh9 ( talk) 16:47, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Jeraphine, RBE calls for the repeal of capitalism. That's why I included a (somewhat/relatively extensive) defense of capitalism. IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 15:36, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
It's WP:Coatrack. Article should focus on Zeitgeist movement, and not all the tangential issues it raises. -- Harizotoh9 ( talk) 22:50, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
RT TV has asked loads of very good questions. Sure. But how is that criticism? It's questions. I assume the questions went unanswered, but it doesn't say so. Can that section be rescued somehow? As it is now it doesn't make any sense. -- OpenFuture ( talk) 20:13, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
This article is full of tedious promotional language like "a sustainable future where humanity is not united by religious or political ideology, but by the scientific method, venerated as the savior that can develop a system of human equality, thriving from the cooperation and balance of technology and nature" and "a world of abundance, where everything is available to everyone, a world where success is not determined by the digits in people's bank accounts." A very limited amount of that usefully tells a careful the reader something about the Movement, but there's far too much. Most of it needs to go, as do the over-long quotes. Also excessive are the external links other than one to the official site. Nor is this page part of a series on Automation, as a template says. Tom Harrison Talk 20:59, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
The Huffington Post, [1] The New York Times [2], The Palm Beach Post [3], Globes, [4] TheMarker, [5] The Orlando Sentinel, [6] RT TV, [7] [8] and TheMarkerTV [9] discussed various aspects of criticism of the Zeitgeist movement, for example allegations of utopianism, reduced work incentives in an RBE and practical difficulties in a transition to an RBE. (In each case, members of the movement were given an opportunity to respond to the criticism.)
Thank you to everyone who contributes to the 'Criticism' section of the article. (Or to any section of the article.)
I would like to ask two questions (although the second question may not belong on this talk page):
1. Does criticism of the documentary Zeitgeist: The Movie belong in this article, or does it belong in the article Zeitgeist: The Movie?
(The following question probably belongs on the talk page of Zeitgeist: The Movie and not on this talk page):
2. Our other sources (NYT, Huffington Post, Palm Beach Post, the two Israeli business journals Globes and TheMarker, RT TV interviews and the Israeli TheMarker TV interview) did not characterize the documentary Zeitgeist: The Movie as anti-Jewish. If the documentary was (reasonably, not to mention widely) believed to be anti-Jewish within the (Hebrew-speaking, or English-speaking, or global) Jewish community, would it not be reasonable to assume that, at the very least, the two Israeli papers and the Israeli TV interview would characterize the movie as anti-Jewish? After all, the lede of our article on Israel states: "Israel is defined as a Jewish and Democratic State in its Basic Laws and is the world's only Jewish-majority state."
Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 16:33, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
0. The only reason my comments are long is that the piece in Tablet is very long, and there are many things wrong with it.
1. Please refrain from personal attacks. They do not contribute to the discussion. My two comments above have not attacked any editor, nor do I have any intention whatsoever to attack any editor. The only things I attacked in my comment above (and below) are the specific article in Tablet, and the author of the Tablet article, Michelle Goldberg. She has lied in the article, and she has concealed inconvenient truths, and she has distorted and twisted other truths, as I've shown above (and below). But I have not attacked, nor do I have any intention of attacking, any WP editor(s). On the contrary, I have complemented and encouraged and supported, and will continue to complement and encourage and support, all efforts to improve the 'criticism' section (as well as all sections of the article).
2. Criticism of the movie(s) belongs in the articles on the movies, not here. For the reasons I outlined above: conflating criticism of the movies with this article is likely to lead to serious escalation, edit wars, and all sorts of other highly undesirable consequences.
3. The main body of the article already mentions the three Zeitgeist movies, and provides links to the movies, enabling the reader to explore further.
4. If we begin duplicating material between the article for the first movie and this article, why only stop at Michelle Goldberg's unfounded accusation of anti-semitism? Once we open the door, it would be impossible to close it. Editors could justifiably demand that the entire criticism section of all 3 Zeitgeist movies be copied and pasted in this article.
5. Then, I would insist on copying all the positive things that were said about the three movies in our sources, and in all the sources on the articles on the article on the 3 movies, and pasting them in this article.
6. And so on and so forth. This process of copying and pasting can continue. That's why any criticism of any of the movies should be included in the article on that movie, not in this article.
7. The Tablet article is not reliable. It focuses mostly on extremely negative, paranoia-like criticisms that are not supported, nor even mentioned, by our reliable sources. Michelle Goldberg focuses mostly on wild, un-supported accusations of anti-Semitic tropes and anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, followed by a lengthy discussion of how Jared L. Loughner was influenced by the first Zeitgeist movie. Michelle Goldberg then lies about what she wrote previously about the original Zeitgeist film, then she compares the first movie to The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and she states empty, un-supported allegations accusing TZM of Jew-baiting, and more allegations accusing TZM of anti-Semitism piled on top of additional accusations of anti-semitism.
Goldberg then directly quotes the New York Times' article on the Zeitgeist movement but dishonestly, fraudulently neglecting to include in her quote any mention whatsoever of the following key sentences from the NYT article, because these sentences contradict her deeply biased, distorted, twisted POV:
Goldberg then piles on even more accusations, again accusing TZM of Jew-baiting, and ending with accusations that TZM holds a Nazi view.
8. None of our reliable sources (NYT, Huffington Post, Palm Beach Post, Orlando Sentinel, Globes, TheMarker, RT Television, TheMarker Television), which include two Israeli publications and a Israeli TV channel, come even close to mentioning, not to say supporting, these extreme, crazy, fraudulent, mendacious, lie-based, distortion-based characterizations of TZM
9. None of the other criticisms of the first movie in reliable sources (Irish Times, etc.) support Goldberg's fraudulent, delusional accusations
10. Literally thousands of articles have been written in hundreds of highly reliable sources around the globe over the last 6 years accusing Wall Street (and global) bankers of malfeasance. This includes all major Israeli newspapers, almost all major American papers including the NYT, Wall Street Journal, NY Post, Philadelphia Inquirer, Boston Globe, Seattle Papers, San Francisco Chronicle, Los Angeles Times, international papers such as The Financial Times, The Guardian, The Independent (UK), other top newspapers and journals in the United Kingdom, and top papers and journals in France, spain, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, Russia, China, and literally almost each and every country in the world.
If Michelle Goldberg's analysis is a reliable source, then the authors of all these articles in reliable sources are anti-semites and Nazis. And so are all the participants in Occupy Wall Street, etc.
11. Unlike all our reliable sources, Michelle Goldberg has conveniently neglected to provide TZM with sufficient opportunity to respond to Goldberg's insane, bizarre, deranged allegations; she has not even reviewed the many tens of hours of TZM videos to find counter-arguments to balance her lunatic, delirious accusations. She did not have even the basic decency to make an attempt to provide even a semblance of balance and fairness.
12. The Tablet piece by Goldberg has all the classic hallmarks of an un-supported hit-piece/ attack piece/ hack job, with a biased, fraudulent, dishonest and radical agenda. It is a clear attempt to profit from shrill, paranoia-based fear mongering and hate mongering, with no serious attempt at journalistic balance or objectivity.
13. Is that the standard we want to lower Wikipedia to?
I invite other editors to comment. And I re-iterate my compliments, respect and support for all WP editors.
IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 13:17, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
As commented before endlessly repeating the same things in a lengthy rhetorical style goes in circles and makes the talk page difficult. 11. Unlike all our reliable sources, Michelle Goldberg has conveniently neglected to provide TZM with sufficient opportunity to respond to Goldberg's insane, bizarre, deranged allegations; she has not even reviewed the many tens of hours of TZM videos to find counter-arguments to balance her lunatic, delirious accusations. End Quote IjonTichyIjonTichy There is a problem here because, as an advocate member of Zeitgeist wanting to portray information in a certain way, it becomes one sided advocacy instead of just balanced information. Being unabashed in your endorsement of the abstract ideas and program of Zeitgeist does not make for a balanced article. There are hundreds of sources that say that Zeitgeist is based on far right principles from the original movie. The original movie is the source of the movement. That can be in the critical portion of the article. In 2009 a German social networking site, studiVZ, did ban Zeitgeist groups because of what they characterized as their implicit anti-Semitism. That was a news story at the time. Earl King Jr. ( talk) 01:03, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
huffpost
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).nytimes
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).PalmBeachPost
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Globes20100318
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).TheMarker20120119
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).OrlandoSentinel1995
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).