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Im having difficulty with this page because the subject isnt really consistently defined. The first sentence of the lead claims that this is a grass roots movement which would indicate a sort of bottom up spontaneous movement that is independent of central organization. However, it seems that the article is actually about a centralized organization and not a movement following it, as the article dogmatically references an official website, and the second sentence even claims that the movement defines itself as a "sustainability advocacy organization." Furthermore social movements tend not to have things like official logos or central websites - those are elements of an organization. I think the article would be much more coherent if we consistently refereed to zeitgeist as an organization because thats really all this article is making reference to. Thanks! 70.112.184.148 ( talk) 08:35, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
So I've just wasted about 4 hours including pauses watching the zeitgeist movies on youtube. In this time I could have made around $64 working. Average person so to say. Not that I am entitled to hurt the feeling of you people who believe in these two "haphazardous motion pictures". I am quite certain that you people "are aware" that a movie as this is a load of infantilism, lies, conspiracy ideas and allegoric theories that claim that there is a superior force controlling the world. That is absolutely grotesque. First of all, no organization in the world can fully understand the functioning of the world or even capitalism itself, because it is an imperfect system, with flaws, like everything else. But it's proven to be quite functional. You can't just blame a system for your misfortune. One thing to know: What is an Intelligent Person? Well to me it is a person who can adapt to it's surroundings. If you're with monkeys, learn to live like one. If there is no other choice... It sadly is like that, there are norms, social order and an established codes of behavior. Also people who seek change show typical dissatisfaction. There are several ways to note this: lack of social contact, political abstinence, corrupt moral values.
I find it funny, because I'm certain the person who made this movie believes in: a better world, is helplessly trying to be a revolutionary and is arguing with what is concluded to be exactitude. Gatherings of such an endeavor lead to problems. Sometimes, you just have to accept how things come. That's how people have been doing for centuries, although history is quite inaccurate I dare say if we go far into depth, but let's not lose our "valuable" topic. Freedom of speech gives it; this will probably be removed by some "Believer". Anyhow, Zeitgeist is probably one of these organizations that only have the power to speak for itself. The justice behind such a videos comes in willing to change the mind. I'm not sure who is being controlled here, but I won't give it a statement as it's quite obvious. Want a change? Work harder, try harder no matter what. That's how you advance in society. Not by wasting your time watching such videos. I even feel bad because I tried so hard to write and give this some attention, but in the end it's just another talk page on Wikipedia that nobody even checks regularly. So to you Mr.Reader. Do you really believe in something trying to make you "Aware"? (So as to have no balance of criticism on its Wikipedia page) Or does that show that Zeitgeist is just simply... Awesome... (irony) People I'm ashamed to say this, but now that I'm kinda done watching and reading about this, I'm off to do something more productive. Farewell. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.28.1.38 ( talk) 12:34, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
wait, you spent four hours watching this stuff even though you realized it was trash? Then why do you complain? It is easy to waste time online watching silly videos, it happens to a lot of people. -- dab (𒁳) 21:32, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
in the ideal of staying neutral i will say this if you disagree with tzgm i would say do not waste your time or valuable energy with statements like "Well to me it is a person who can adapt to it's surroundings. If you're with monkeys, learn to live like one. If there is no other choice... It sadly is like that, there are norms, social order and an established codes of behavior. Also people who seek change show typical dissatisfaction. There are several ways to note this: lack of social contact, political abstinence, corrupt moral values." in my opinion this is Cynicism (contemporary) and holds no place in a page that exist to supply knowledge not act as a breeding ground for negativity. for the record i am politically active, volunteer, am very social, and have amoral values. in my opinion there are 2 ways to live in the world as it stands, or the world you help to create. so f you would like to continue to live "withe the monkeys" please be my guest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.225.93.129 ( talk) 04:19, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
googling this, it seems that this project managed to attract some real attention during 2009, organizing meetings with close to 1,000 attendants. In 2009, there was an exodus due to the poor judgement and guru-like behaiour of "global administrator" PJ Morela. Basically, this was a one year fad based on public interest generated with an online documentary about 9/11 truthers and the Christ myth.
It was true in 1930 and it remains true in 2010, any leftist movement, no matter how well-intentioned, will immediately defeat itself by internal quarrels and poor leadership and fragment into numerous tiny infighting factions.
In terms of secondary sources, all this "Zeitgeist Movement" has to show seems to be two newspaper articles. The 400,000 members claim is ridiculous. By now this essentially seems to be a private online community. -- dab (𒁳) 11:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
I also wonder if they realize that what they are proposing is simply stateless communism but with the machines in charge. They probably do, it just isn't opportune to use the C-word in America A century ago, communist utopia was a worker's paradise. The only difference now seems to be that people today don't want to work, even in paradise, so they are happy to leave both production and decision making to the machines. -- dab (𒁳) 11:26, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
Nope. It is not simply stateless communism with machines in charge. You are projecting into the idea, with irrelevant labels that have negative connotations. The foundational aspect of the RBE concept is resource optimization. Surveying the Earth’s resources, self-contained/sustainable/streamlined city systems, strategically (through scientific analysis and survey) designing the products and services while keeping in account the depleting resources, closed loop production and distribution (recycling) and managing everything according to the carrying capacity of the Earth. These are foundational aspects of the RBE. THE ENVIRONMENTAL aspect is central to the RBE, which is never discussed scientifically by the Communist leaders. Communism’s central idea is to have a justifiable LABOR SYSTEM starting with equal pay for equal work, and in later stages, “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need (or needs),” but it somehow is unable to escape from the human labor element. In fact, it’s based on it. The RBE is bolder in its concept and is focused on eliminating the human labor system itself as much as possible. It’s a more Humane concept. So one could say that the RBE’s mission statement could be, “From each according to his needs, to each according to his wishes (and not just abilities).” No communist in history has ever tried to think how human labor can become irrelevant with rising technology. Also, according to Communism, more labor should be paid more. So it means that if you have a hammer and a driller with you, you will try to use the hammer instead of the driller (which reduces labor), because using the hammer will fetch you more money. So in this way, Communism’s tendency is to favor a human labor system, whereas the RBE is against such human waste and toil. It attempts to free humanity from such drudgery. Finally I would say that Communism still does not understand the fallacies of the “growth based system”, which is dangerous in the long run for the resources are simply not infinite. The system’s approach to Earth’s management of resources is central to the RBE, which has nothing to do with Communism. Communism was an ideal state where everyone will go according to one’s needs and will work according to one’s capability . Well that condition never reached . However RBE will never try to reach a final frontier or an ideal final state. People in future will always try to update that or even change that. 217.172.92.12 ( talk) 18:47, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
Heh, 217.172, Surveying the Earth’s resources, self-contained/sustainable/streamlined city systems, strategically (through scientific analysis and survey) designing the products and services while keeping in account the depleting resources, closed loop production and distribution (recycling) and managing everything according to the carrying capacity of the Earth, this is exactly how a technocrat would describe the concept of "the machines are in charge". As I say, technocratic stateless communism. You are basically just repeating my point in so many words. I am not saying this grew out of the existing communist movement, it is just people watching an extremely bad movie and then coming up with the same set of ideas the communists had a century ago, this time with the additional twist of free humanity from such drudgery by robot labour. -- dab (𒁳) 12:45, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
First point to dab, Communism is by its very definition a stateless society where workers take over the means of production directly. Other than that, it is pretty ambiguous and very much undefined about what Communism is supposed to be. Second point, Communism is about elevating the working class as the highest and most prestige class; many Marxists and Communists agree that it is not that due to the very essence and nature that TZM wishes to eliminate class and take control of production through means of automization, this is completely opposite of Communism and saying that it is, is simply as the person said, a "projection" that is ill-informed. Finally, If you wish to discuss this issue on a forum, please do so. But not here, Wikipedia is not the place for forum discussions. Reason and Logic shall always prevail ( talk) 00:43, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
Still not seeing enough independent coverage on this to justify its own article. I'm proposing a merge of any relevant content to Zeitgeist: The Movie. — The Hand That Feeds You: Bite 14:08, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
NOOO... lEAVE IT ON HERE I LIKE IT!! :):) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Nafeson90 (
talk •
contribs) 13:51, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
That's because the article is constantly being vandalized. The movement has nothing to do with the The Movie —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.169.62.86 ( talk) 13:21, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
We have been through this all before. The pattern is for people to remove notable content from the page, then challenge it, and try to delete it, or move it back into the movie. In fact, this has been done once before, and then this page was created again. This is an extended edit war. The movement has numerous sourced media mentions in places such as the NY Times (although source references are continually edited out, both by critics of the movement, and by supporters). Whatever is said, an article about a movie, and an article about a movement, are two entirely different kinds of things, and it is not possible to objectively document both within one article without a lot of confucion. On a movie article, for example, one might refer to elements of the plot and characters which are fictional, as if they were real. In the context of a movie, if makes sense to do so. When talking about a social or political movement, such text is very confusing. A review of the edit histories of the movie pages and movement page makes this amply clear. The answer is not to repeatedly move the page, but to create an objective article which clearly cites the many notable media references, both positive and negative, and which contains a well documented and objective criticism section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Noelhunter ( talk • contribs) 17:10, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
Warning any attempts to deface this Wikipedia article is an act of censorship, let the information be provided as is an not be biased by the myriads of opposition, i ask that all mods of Wikipedia truly investigate into what the zeitgeist movement is before changing anything on this page. Please watch this( http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=3932487043163636261) to truly get what the zeitgeist movement advocates and its goals. Move this into the discussion section once it has allowed to be seen by all who monitor this page. Whats wrong with how the article used to be written?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Gaby 64 ( talk • contribs)
Oh ok i guess i was wrong, i thought this was an article on THE ZEITGEIST MOVEMENT. What other sources then the home of this movement could possibly be a better source in explaining what it is!!!? This is not about getting the word out, this is about having a reliable article about a movement. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, as such it should explain exactly what the movement is and its goals and advocacy's but nothing more, except maybe since its an online update-able encyclopedia movement events and updates as it progresses. When someone comes to this article on wiki they expect to find enough information to get what it is they where looking for, the zeitgeist movement. You can't write an article if you don't first understand and know what it is. Everyone who edits this page should have at-least seen the zeitgeist orientation presentation, unless its for minor edits regarding Wikipedia rules and style. http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=3932487043163636261 The content of that video could even be considered as a source as it is produced for the movement by its founder. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gaby 64 ( talk • contribs) 05:19, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
It looks like this article is unbalanced. We need 3 criticism sources that aren't blogs or forums. One would be Noam Chomsky's letter. Find more please or delete this article or tag it as unbalanced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.80.81.117 ( talk) 11:34, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
The main problem seems to be that this doesn't have any notability, just a bunch of people active online who try to pretend it has notability. Something that doesn't have notability will also not get too much criticism, positive or negative. If you have a statement by Chomsky about this, feel free to add it. -- dab (𒁳) 12:40, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
This article is clearly biased. I have put on the POV-tag. HopeBox ( talk) 16:04, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
The article still has the problem of being esentially a press release touting this "movement", based on primary sources. Then there is a "Media reviews" section which consist entirely of four soundbites.
I do not have the impression this movement is in anyway notable. It is an online fad, and as such automatically generates an inflated number of google hits. Its impact outside of chat fora and social media is minimal. There have been a few meetings of a few hundred participants each. Well, the same is true of every tour of any notable rock band. So in these terms, the "movement" would be comparable in notability to, say, Virtual XI World Tour. We have a Virtual XI World Tour article, so we can well also have a The Zeitgeist Movement article, but people need to stop trying to inflate the topic's notability. As long as such attempts are being made, we need to keep the article tagged for NPOV review. -- dab (𒁳) 11:26, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
When dealing with the question of "real world" notability of online fads, it is useful to turn to google books. Online phenomena which are truly notable will eventually turn up in print. Check out "Facebook": about 130,000 hits since 2008. Take this as a benchmark for the number of google hits for an online product with undisputedly significant impact on the "real world".
Now, how many hits for "Zeitgeist movement" since 2008? two. Two mentions in three years. Of these two mentions,
That's it, that's the entire notability of this movement over the period of three years. In other words, I very much doubt that this topic can be argued to have a notability even approaching that of an article like Virtual XI World Tour. -- dab (𒁳) 11:35, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Is anyone who is well informed about this movement and is not biased willing to rewrite the "criticisms" section? It looks like the criticisms sound like being a debate; for example, the phrase "which is false" sounds authoritative. What do you think? Raigainousa ( talk) 11:49, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
<ref>[http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/17/nyregion/17zeitgeist.html They’ve Seen the Future and Dislike the Present]</ref>
{{ editprotected}} — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gaby 64 ( talk • contribs)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_btXktBTEi8 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.106.26.81 ( talk) 00:52, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
This article is fundamentally partisan because it was created specifically to raise the profile of the Zeitgeist Movement in their attempt to get more traffic so they can market their merchandise.
Groups like the Zeitgeist Movement are obsessed with using the figures of their traffic and email recipients to build an exaggerated image of mass membership because they know it raises their profile. A Wikipedia article is one of their ways of creating this false image of significance. The Zeitgeist Movement's membership statistic is based on an email list, which accounts mainly for people who merely hovered on their site for minutes and then left. The notion of mass membership is false. There are at most 20 people involved in the management of the Zeitgeist Movement and they are mainly trying to sell merchandise such as printed t-shirts through hype. Even Jacques Fresco, the person ZM is supposed to be supporting, is not a member of the Zeitgeist Movement and has discouraged the movement. This article is essentially an ad for a minor cyber-sect, it has no informative purpose for Wikipedia browsers, and should be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.5.150.96 ( talk) 21:12, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
I came to Wikipedia because I didn't know what the Zeitgeist Movement was. After reading this article, I still don't. Is it possible to put aside the various disputes on this talk page long enough for someone to write a few sentences about what the movement is, what its goals are, who participates in it, etc? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.213.243.210 ( talk) 14:13, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
I propose we clean this page up, it bears all the hallmarks of something written by the guys who run Zeitgeist and I think most of it needs to go. I vote we remove the 'Rational Skepticism' tags because, frankly, as much as I think 'Rational Skeptic' is generally code for 'holds a very biased and negative view of certain subjects which they are committed and determined to debunk no matter what', we are talking about a group of admitted and rather dotty conspiracy theorists here. Real 'rational skeptics' don't like them very much.
The Zeitgeist movies are farcically bad, so bad they would be funny if they weren't so outright manipulative, their creator is a troll who accuses anyone who criticizes them as being 'insane', a fair few of their supporters think the Haiti earthquake was a man-made conspiracy and even quite a few of the 'Truther' movements are against them. Hadashi ( talk) 11:20, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
Listen Anti-Z people: You can fight it all you like in your little blog world. However, Wikipedia is about what is happening and provable, not what you think the quality of TZM is. It just pathetic to those who come here and post crap blog rants about TZM about pretend it is a source. Live and let live. I will be watching this page to profile you trolls who continue this and will make sure you are removed from Wikipedia. Reinventor098 ( talk) 00:30, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
You just exposed your bias and hence your epic fail. Listen- this is an article about what TZM is. If you don't want them on Wikipedia, then ask for the articles to be removed. Otherwise, you are just trolling Reinventor098 ( talk) 00:46, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Except this one apparently, which has precisely one source (a 2009 NYT article) that isn't a product of the 'movement' or its associates. Before I delete swathes of this article as the unsourced puffery it clearly is, does someone care to find evidence that anyone is actually taking any notice of them? AndyTheGrump ( talk) 00:35, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
[1] The organization is specifically about replacing opinions with the scientific method. This shows you not to know what the topic is. Perhaps we need to word this more clearly. The way you grab the microphone and pretend to represent the organization isn't appropriate. That part is obvious.
Also replacing the mention of 600 simultaneous events with a single one not just seems like an attempt to marginalize the topic.
original text:
Your idea of coverage:
Clearly an attempt towards marginalization. The source might be primary, it will do just fine unless some one objects. Your objection appears nothing more than an attempt towards misrepresentation. We already had a lone admin who thought it was cool to lock the article and misrepresent the movement pretending it should be perfectly cool with everyone while it obviously is not.
http://zday2010.org/zday-events/zday-2011
That and the number in the NYT should be good enough.
But what am I even talking about, you've basically deleted the entire article line by line.
An historic event only has to be note worthy in that time frame, when such notability is established it doesn't just vanish over time.
84.106.26.81 ( talk) 22:50, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
The sources are good. Just deleting the entire article line by line does not qualify as productive editing. You are not improving anything. 84.106.26.81 ( talk) 23:23, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
It now says: "Zeitgeist claims that In 2009 there were more than 450 events held in 70 countries around the world" [3]
Exactly the way it did a week ago.
84.106.26.81 ( talk) 23:29, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
None of the sources provided offer any credible evidence of a global event. All "facts" regarding a large scale event such as 300+ global events needs some reliable sourcing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seagram ( talk • contribs) 18:09, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Listen: If you don't like TZM- good for you. That doesn't mean it doesn't deserve a correct, basic unbiased representation on Wikipedia. I will be reporting all actions from here out if this biased vandalism continues. There is a basic set of simple data about Press, Actions and true references to the Mission Statement of The Zeitgeist Movement. If you want to "invent" their purpose to spins it -- please do so on the many hate blogs out there -- have some respect for what wikipedia is supposed to be doing here. Seriously. Reinventor098 ( talk) 06:15, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Hi Andy! Thats nice. Good to see how qualified you are to edit this page since you have a clear hatred for the group. Keep vandalizing so I can keep reporting you! Reinventor098 ( talk) 01:27, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
Okay guys, take your personal disagreements outside or stick to discussing the actual contents of this article. While you take a moment to chill, have a read over WP:VANDALISM ("vandalism" has a specific meaning on Wikipedia, don't just throw that word around), WP:AGF (assume good faith), and WP:NPA (no personal attacks). The above convo about trolls and cults is not very interesting or helpful for the rest of us. — Jeraphine Gryphon ( talk) 20:48, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
It is not important or relevant that the current members of the group/movement don't want to be associated with The Venus Project, it's a historical fact that TZM acted as the activist arm of TVP (and was very largely inspired by TVP's ideas!). Please stop removing mentions of TVP from the article. You can present the movement however you like on your own websites, Wikipedia serves a different purpose. It's also true that the Zeitgeist films spawned the movement, whether they're officially considered to have done so or not. It's also true that people outside the movement probably can't name anyone else but Peter Joseph from the "leaders" of the movement, he is definitely a "key person". You'll notice there are other fields in the infobox for actual leaders and such -- we didn't use those fields. "Key people" is a milder term. It doesn't even mean anything official, it just means he's one of the visible people associated with the movement, which he is. — Jeraphine Gryphon ( talk) 17:18, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
(←) I have just removed a lot of detailed information about the organisation's activities sourced entirely to its own publicity. If the world outside has paid no attention to these activities, then neither do we. Cusop Dingle ( talk) 20:01, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
Ok, so I am having a hard time understanding the case being made here, might be because of a lack of sleep I do not know really. But for the record here is what I am disputing the legitimacy of it being removed: "Other projects include a weekly radio show that features different project and Chapter Coordinators [tzm_radio_shows], a media project, an official blog for contribution, a user submitted site for science and technology information. [5]" These are sources and everything that I did undid as a result. So Dingle, if you can explain to me how this violates what you say it does, it will be greatly appreciated as I am having a hard time understanding how a reference towards various projects TZM has going on is "unduly self-serving," "involve claims about third parties," and "the article is not based primarily on such sources." However, Dingle you gave the reason you edited it as "If the world outside has paid no attention to these activities, then neither do we," which makes no reference to anything regarding WP Standard for editing and read by anyone else, they would regard it as "your opinion. I apologize if I misunderstood you, but when in doubt clarify. Also, if Andy could give his reason for it violating the tags he indicated that would be helpful too. It might just a simple misunderstanding on one of our parts, or maybe its just the lack of sleep. Reason and Logic shall always prevail ( talk) 22:01, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
The reception section was a collection of carefully chosen, pro-Zeitgest quotes tossed in the article with nothing else. I removed the section as a quotefarm, POV and not encyclopediac in nature. Avashurov added the section back but removed the quotes, so it's now essentially a list of articles/sources. No context. No information. Just a list of article. I removed that with the edit comment of "Still removing the section - that's basically a list of sources. You need to write it in summary form and include both sides". Avashurov reverted that, saying it was my opinion. Rather than continue into an edit war, let's discuss this. The section, as it's written adds nothing to the article of an encyclopediac nature. That's contrary how article should appear on WP. A reception section is probably valid, but it MUST be written in summary style, based on sources and be balanced in it's coverage. Ravensfire ( talk) 19:19, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
The tag about copyright violation placed by Ravensfire is inapplicable as there is no copyrighted material presented. The information presented is important as The Venus Project has played significant role in The Zeitgeist Movement's history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Avashurov ( talk • contribs) 20:21, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
Zazaban Please, provide justification of your neutrality dispute so I can improve it or remove the tag. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Avashurov ( talk • contribs) 06:03, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
Re neutrality, it's understandable that the pro-TZM people here can't see it but the overall tone of the article is subtly (or not so subtly) promotional or approving. That combined with the excessive use of primary sources and being written by editors with a WP:COI, warrants the neutrality tag, which should stay until the article is clearly neutral. Regular editors have been trying to fix the issues but the (Redacted) keep returning the article to its POV state. — Jeraphine Gryphon ( talk) 16:59, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
Can somebody explain to me what is trying to be said here? It is so stuffed with buzzwords that I can't make heads or tails of it. If it means anything at all it should be rewritten in plain English. Zazaban ( talk) 20:50, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
I don't think the philosophy section is necessary at all, what we're aiming to cover can be covered in summary in the Activities section -- the section describes what they do and what they promote. It's not like they're a philosophical movement, most of their focus is on practical reality. If there's anything valuable in the current Philosophy section then I vote we rephrase it and move it to Activities (we can of course also rename that subsection if there's a better alternative).
Not that it's very important but I was a TZM supporter a couple of years ago (and still find TVP fascinating) -- I don't agree with the above notions that their actual views are vague and meaningless. I don't know what they're up to these days, but in any case the portion of text that you're confused about is not the same thing as their actual views.
If anyone has time, the fourth and fifth faq may be useful (in looking for their own description of their philosophy): http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/faq#faq4 — Jeraphine Gryphon ( talk) 15:24, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
This may be important to mention somewhere: "Out of a general respect to TVP's work with what they consider to be the proprietary notion of a "Resource-Based Economy" [RBE] and its definition, some in The Movement prefer to adapt to the term "Resource-Based Economic Model" [RBEM] to separate from the Fresco-specific association/definition and allow for a more general flexible understanding of the Train of Thought." (The movement itself uses the term/abbreviation RBEM, which should be mentioned in the article.) — Jeraphine Gryphon ( talk) 15:58, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
The article has just been tagged for advert, fansite, globalize, onesource, technical, refimprove and toofewopinions all in one go. Discussion of one, some or all of those would be useful. Cusop Dingle ( talk) 17:15, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
Ankh, are you sure you know what you're doing? Why did you revert that edit of mine? I made the part about the 2011 and 2012 ZDay events a bit shorter since they didn't receive outside coverage. If that wasn't okay then I'm sorry I'm not a mind reader and can't tell what your actual issue was. And can you or anyone maybe point out where these alleged 'buzzwords' are so we'll know what to fix? — Jeraphine Gryphon ( talk) 23:41, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
I'm going to unwatch this now, feel free to ruin the article as you please. Ankh, I had edited both of those terms that you quoted and either way they didn't seem to qualify as 'buzzwords'. But thanks for insulting me anyway. — Jeraphine Gryphon ( talk) 15:06, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
The article, which bases mostly on orginal sources, cannot be held neutral, because of zg people trying to influence it in their way of thinking. It should better be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blogotron ( talk • contribs) 18:09, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Repeated false accusations of 'vandalism' etc at The Zeitgeist Movement article. Since the person reported isn't the only one making such false accusations, I suggest that other TZM supporters take note, and consider their actions before engaging in such behaviour. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 18:14, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
The article still doesn't reflect what the movement is, and that is unfortunate. For example, the critizesing of the fractional reserve banking system, needs further explanation. The socalled 'critique' stems from observation and research into the current socio-economic system. It would be great if we could come to an agreement of what should be written in the article and what should not. And for the criticism source; a criticism section. For the sources from the Zeitgeist Movement; they are the main description of the movement, as they are from the movement. Not forum posts, but mission statement and such. René Bjerg Madsen ( talk) 07:51, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
Ankh.Morpork, thank you for the feedback. Could you please explain exactly what is meant by 'more POV gobbledygook' and your objection to the resources I cited. I believe the resources are reasonably reliable. They contain articles in the NYT and the Huffington Post, and interviews in Russia Today (RT) and on the Larry King TV show in 1974. The references also contained books by Jacque Fresco and James S. Albus, a US government engineer and prolific inventor and author. As regards the reference by Elbus, I clearly articulated he does not mention TZM in his book, and I mentioned there are differences between Elbus's solutions and TZM's proposed solutions, but I also I explained that there are significant similarities between Elbus's views of the problems of the current global socio-economic system and the views of TZM. So respectfully could you please explain why these resources are considered 'unreliable.' I realize they are not peer-reviewed articles in academic/ professional journals. But the vast majority of resources in the vast majority of wikipedia articles are not peer-reviewed articles in academic/ professional journals. Why apply a different standard to this TZM article? Or am I wrong on this or missing something?
This may be an issue of Deletionism and inclusionism in Wikipedia. If I'm an inclusionist and another editor is, say, perhaps a deletionist, does the wholesale removal of my edits imply that the deletionist must prevail? Is this some sort of power play? Not sure.
But perhaps the most disturbing thing that happened is that all my edits were reverted wholesale, without a single edit remaining. This included not only the wholesale reversion of my attempts at trying to explain the basic principles of TZM/ RBE (since several previous readers commented on this talk page that they still don't understand the basic principles of TZM/RBE), , using what I believe was a reasonably neutral tone (and considering it is probably impossible to maintain a perfectly/ ideally neutral tone on such articles, because the subject matter is considerably out of the mainstream consensus). But perhaps just as disturbing is the wholesale deletion of my other edits which were only minor and moderate corrections of typos, modifications to clarify (but not significantly modify) existing sentences that existed on the page previously to my edits, and other similar minor to moderate edits that did not contain any POV (unless one applies a very liberal definition of POV)... all these edits have been censored, without exception, even those edits that had nothing to do with quoting sources (whether 'reliable' or 'unreliable') .... respectfully please explain. At the present time, these actions are very disquieting and disturbing. Best regards and thanks, IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 23:18, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Im having difficulty with this page because the subject isnt really consistently defined. The first sentence of the lead claims that this is a grass roots movement which would indicate a sort of bottom up spontaneous movement that is independent of central organization. However, it seems that the article is actually about a centralized organization and not a movement following it, as the article dogmatically references an official website, and the second sentence even claims that the movement defines itself as a "sustainability advocacy organization." Furthermore social movements tend not to have things like official logos or central websites - those are elements of an organization. I think the article would be much more coherent if we consistently refereed to zeitgeist as an organization because thats really all this article is making reference to. Thanks! 70.112.184.148 ( talk) 08:35, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
So I've just wasted about 4 hours including pauses watching the zeitgeist movies on youtube. In this time I could have made around $64 working. Average person so to say. Not that I am entitled to hurt the feeling of you people who believe in these two "haphazardous motion pictures". I am quite certain that you people "are aware" that a movie as this is a load of infantilism, lies, conspiracy ideas and allegoric theories that claim that there is a superior force controlling the world. That is absolutely grotesque. First of all, no organization in the world can fully understand the functioning of the world or even capitalism itself, because it is an imperfect system, with flaws, like everything else. But it's proven to be quite functional. You can't just blame a system for your misfortune. One thing to know: What is an Intelligent Person? Well to me it is a person who can adapt to it's surroundings. If you're with monkeys, learn to live like one. If there is no other choice... It sadly is like that, there are norms, social order and an established codes of behavior. Also people who seek change show typical dissatisfaction. There are several ways to note this: lack of social contact, political abstinence, corrupt moral values.
I find it funny, because I'm certain the person who made this movie believes in: a better world, is helplessly trying to be a revolutionary and is arguing with what is concluded to be exactitude. Gatherings of such an endeavor lead to problems. Sometimes, you just have to accept how things come. That's how people have been doing for centuries, although history is quite inaccurate I dare say if we go far into depth, but let's not lose our "valuable" topic. Freedom of speech gives it; this will probably be removed by some "Believer". Anyhow, Zeitgeist is probably one of these organizations that only have the power to speak for itself. The justice behind such a videos comes in willing to change the mind. I'm not sure who is being controlled here, but I won't give it a statement as it's quite obvious. Want a change? Work harder, try harder no matter what. That's how you advance in society. Not by wasting your time watching such videos. I even feel bad because I tried so hard to write and give this some attention, but in the end it's just another talk page on Wikipedia that nobody even checks regularly. So to you Mr.Reader. Do you really believe in something trying to make you "Aware"? (So as to have no balance of criticism on its Wikipedia page) Or does that show that Zeitgeist is just simply... Awesome... (irony) People I'm ashamed to say this, but now that I'm kinda done watching and reading about this, I'm off to do something more productive. Farewell. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.28.1.38 ( talk) 12:34, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
wait, you spent four hours watching this stuff even though you realized it was trash? Then why do you complain? It is easy to waste time online watching silly videos, it happens to a lot of people. -- dab (𒁳) 21:32, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
in the ideal of staying neutral i will say this if you disagree with tzgm i would say do not waste your time or valuable energy with statements like "Well to me it is a person who can adapt to it's surroundings. If you're with monkeys, learn to live like one. If there is no other choice... It sadly is like that, there are norms, social order and an established codes of behavior. Also people who seek change show typical dissatisfaction. There are several ways to note this: lack of social contact, political abstinence, corrupt moral values." in my opinion this is Cynicism (contemporary) and holds no place in a page that exist to supply knowledge not act as a breeding ground for negativity. for the record i am politically active, volunteer, am very social, and have amoral values. in my opinion there are 2 ways to live in the world as it stands, or the world you help to create. so f you would like to continue to live "withe the monkeys" please be my guest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.225.93.129 ( talk) 04:19, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
googling this, it seems that this project managed to attract some real attention during 2009, organizing meetings with close to 1,000 attendants. In 2009, there was an exodus due to the poor judgement and guru-like behaiour of "global administrator" PJ Morela. Basically, this was a one year fad based on public interest generated with an online documentary about 9/11 truthers and the Christ myth.
It was true in 1930 and it remains true in 2010, any leftist movement, no matter how well-intentioned, will immediately defeat itself by internal quarrels and poor leadership and fragment into numerous tiny infighting factions.
In terms of secondary sources, all this "Zeitgeist Movement" has to show seems to be two newspaper articles. The 400,000 members claim is ridiculous. By now this essentially seems to be a private online community. -- dab (𒁳) 11:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
I also wonder if they realize that what they are proposing is simply stateless communism but with the machines in charge. They probably do, it just isn't opportune to use the C-word in America A century ago, communist utopia was a worker's paradise. The only difference now seems to be that people today don't want to work, even in paradise, so they are happy to leave both production and decision making to the machines. -- dab (𒁳) 11:26, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
Nope. It is not simply stateless communism with machines in charge. You are projecting into the idea, with irrelevant labels that have negative connotations. The foundational aspect of the RBE concept is resource optimization. Surveying the Earth’s resources, self-contained/sustainable/streamlined city systems, strategically (through scientific analysis and survey) designing the products and services while keeping in account the depleting resources, closed loop production and distribution (recycling) and managing everything according to the carrying capacity of the Earth. These are foundational aspects of the RBE. THE ENVIRONMENTAL aspect is central to the RBE, which is never discussed scientifically by the Communist leaders. Communism’s central idea is to have a justifiable LABOR SYSTEM starting with equal pay for equal work, and in later stages, “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need (or needs),” but it somehow is unable to escape from the human labor element. In fact, it’s based on it. The RBE is bolder in its concept and is focused on eliminating the human labor system itself as much as possible. It’s a more Humane concept. So one could say that the RBE’s mission statement could be, “From each according to his needs, to each according to his wishes (and not just abilities).” No communist in history has ever tried to think how human labor can become irrelevant with rising technology. Also, according to Communism, more labor should be paid more. So it means that if you have a hammer and a driller with you, you will try to use the hammer instead of the driller (which reduces labor), because using the hammer will fetch you more money. So in this way, Communism’s tendency is to favor a human labor system, whereas the RBE is against such human waste and toil. It attempts to free humanity from such drudgery. Finally I would say that Communism still does not understand the fallacies of the “growth based system”, which is dangerous in the long run for the resources are simply not infinite. The system’s approach to Earth’s management of resources is central to the RBE, which has nothing to do with Communism. Communism was an ideal state where everyone will go according to one’s needs and will work according to one’s capability . Well that condition never reached . However RBE will never try to reach a final frontier or an ideal final state. People in future will always try to update that or even change that. 217.172.92.12 ( talk) 18:47, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
Heh, 217.172, Surveying the Earth’s resources, self-contained/sustainable/streamlined city systems, strategically (through scientific analysis and survey) designing the products and services while keeping in account the depleting resources, closed loop production and distribution (recycling) and managing everything according to the carrying capacity of the Earth, this is exactly how a technocrat would describe the concept of "the machines are in charge". As I say, technocratic stateless communism. You are basically just repeating my point in so many words. I am not saying this grew out of the existing communist movement, it is just people watching an extremely bad movie and then coming up with the same set of ideas the communists had a century ago, this time with the additional twist of free humanity from such drudgery by robot labour. -- dab (𒁳) 12:45, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
First point to dab, Communism is by its very definition a stateless society where workers take over the means of production directly. Other than that, it is pretty ambiguous and very much undefined about what Communism is supposed to be. Second point, Communism is about elevating the working class as the highest and most prestige class; many Marxists and Communists agree that it is not that due to the very essence and nature that TZM wishes to eliminate class and take control of production through means of automization, this is completely opposite of Communism and saying that it is, is simply as the person said, a "projection" that is ill-informed. Finally, If you wish to discuss this issue on a forum, please do so. But not here, Wikipedia is not the place for forum discussions. Reason and Logic shall always prevail ( talk) 00:43, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
Still not seeing enough independent coverage on this to justify its own article. I'm proposing a merge of any relevant content to Zeitgeist: The Movie. — The Hand That Feeds You: Bite 14:08, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
NOOO... lEAVE IT ON HERE I LIKE IT!! :):) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Nafeson90 (
talk •
contribs) 13:51, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
That's because the article is constantly being vandalized. The movement has nothing to do with the The Movie —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.169.62.86 ( talk) 13:21, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
We have been through this all before. The pattern is for people to remove notable content from the page, then challenge it, and try to delete it, or move it back into the movie. In fact, this has been done once before, and then this page was created again. This is an extended edit war. The movement has numerous sourced media mentions in places such as the NY Times (although source references are continually edited out, both by critics of the movement, and by supporters). Whatever is said, an article about a movie, and an article about a movement, are two entirely different kinds of things, and it is not possible to objectively document both within one article without a lot of confucion. On a movie article, for example, one might refer to elements of the plot and characters which are fictional, as if they were real. In the context of a movie, if makes sense to do so. When talking about a social or political movement, such text is very confusing. A review of the edit histories of the movie pages and movement page makes this amply clear. The answer is not to repeatedly move the page, but to create an objective article which clearly cites the many notable media references, both positive and negative, and which contains a well documented and objective criticism section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Noelhunter ( talk • contribs) 17:10, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
Warning any attempts to deface this Wikipedia article is an act of censorship, let the information be provided as is an not be biased by the myriads of opposition, i ask that all mods of Wikipedia truly investigate into what the zeitgeist movement is before changing anything on this page. Please watch this( http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=3932487043163636261) to truly get what the zeitgeist movement advocates and its goals. Move this into the discussion section once it has allowed to be seen by all who monitor this page. Whats wrong with how the article used to be written?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Gaby 64 ( talk • contribs)
Oh ok i guess i was wrong, i thought this was an article on THE ZEITGEIST MOVEMENT. What other sources then the home of this movement could possibly be a better source in explaining what it is!!!? This is not about getting the word out, this is about having a reliable article about a movement. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, as such it should explain exactly what the movement is and its goals and advocacy's but nothing more, except maybe since its an online update-able encyclopedia movement events and updates as it progresses. When someone comes to this article on wiki they expect to find enough information to get what it is they where looking for, the zeitgeist movement. You can't write an article if you don't first understand and know what it is. Everyone who edits this page should have at-least seen the zeitgeist orientation presentation, unless its for minor edits regarding Wikipedia rules and style. http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=3932487043163636261 The content of that video could even be considered as a source as it is produced for the movement by its founder. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gaby 64 ( talk • contribs) 05:19, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
It looks like this article is unbalanced. We need 3 criticism sources that aren't blogs or forums. One would be Noam Chomsky's letter. Find more please or delete this article or tag it as unbalanced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.80.81.117 ( talk) 11:34, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
The main problem seems to be that this doesn't have any notability, just a bunch of people active online who try to pretend it has notability. Something that doesn't have notability will also not get too much criticism, positive or negative. If you have a statement by Chomsky about this, feel free to add it. -- dab (𒁳) 12:40, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
This article is clearly biased. I have put on the POV-tag. HopeBox ( talk) 16:04, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
The article still has the problem of being esentially a press release touting this "movement", based on primary sources. Then there is a "Media reviews" section which consist entirely of four soundbites.
I do not have the impression this movement is in anyway notable. It is an online fad, and as such automatically generates an inflated number of google hits. Its impact outside of chat fora and social media is minimal. There have been a few meetings of a few hundred participants each. Well, the same is true of every tour of any notable rock band. So in these terms, the "movement" would be comparable in notability to, say, Virtual XI World Tour. We have a Virtual XI World Tour article, so we can well also have a The Zeitgeist Movement article, but people need to stop trying to inflate the topic's notability. As long as such attempts are being made, we need to keep the article tagged for NPOV review. -- dab (𒁳) 11:26, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
When dealing with the question of "real world" notability of online fads, it is useful to turn to google books. Online phenomena which are truly notable will eventually turn up in print. Check out "Facebook": about 130,000 hits since 2008. Take this as a benchmark for the number of google hits for an online product with undisputedly significant impact on the "real world".
Now, how many hits for "Zeitgeist movement" since 2008? two. Two mentions in three years. Of these two mentions,
That's it, that's the entire notability of this movement over the period of three years. In other words, I very much doubt that this topic can be argued to have a notability even approaching that of an article like Virtual XI World Tour. -- dab (𒁳) 11:35, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Is anyone who is well informed about this movement and is not biased willing to rewrite the "criticisms" section? It looks like the criticisms sound like being a debate; for example, the phrase "which is false" sounds authoritative. What do you think? Raigainousa ( talk) 11:49, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
<ref>[http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/17/nyregion/17zeitgeist.html They’ve Seen the Future and Dislike the Present]</ref>
{{ editprotected}} — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gaby 64 ( talk • contribs)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_btXktBTEi8 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.106.26.81 ( talk) 00:52, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
This article is fundamentally partisan because it was created specifically to raise the profile of the Zeitgeist Movement in their attempt to get more traffic so they can market their merchandise.
Groups like the Zeitgeist Movement are obsessed with using the figures of their traffic and email recipients to build an exaggerated image of mass membership because they know it raises their profile. A Wikipedia article is one of their ways of creating this false image of significance. The Zeitgeist Movement's membership statistic is based on an email list, which accounts mainly for people who merely hovered on their site for minutes and then left. The notion of mass membership is false. There are at most 20 people involved in the management of the Zeitgeist Movement and they are mainly trying to sell merchandise such as printed t-shirts through hype. Even Jacques Fresco, the person ZM is supposed to be supporting, is not a member of the Zeitgeist Movement and has discouraged the movement. This article is essentially an ad for a minor cyber-sect, it has no informative purpose for Wikipedia browsers, and should be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.5.150.96 ( talk) 21:12, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
I came to Wikipedia because I didn't know what the Zeitgeist Movement was. After reading this article, I still don't. Is it possible to put aside the various disputes on this talk page long enough for someone to write a few sentences about what the movement is, what its goals are, who participates in it, etc? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.213.243.210 ( talk) 14:13, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
I propose we clean this page up, it bears all the hallmarks of something written by the guys who run Zeitgeist and I think most of it needs to go. I vote we remove the 'Rational Skepticism' tags because, frankly, as much as I think 'Rational Skeptic' is generally code for 'holds a very biased and negative view of certain subjects which they are committed and determined to debunk no matter what', we are talking about a group of admitted and rather dotty conspiracy theorists here. Real 'rational skeptics' don't like them very much.
The Zeitgeist movies are farcically bad, so bad they would be funny if they weren't so outright manipulative, their creator is a troll who accuses anyone who criticizes them as being 'insane', a fair few of their supporters think the Haiti earthquake was a man-made conspiracy and even quite a few of the 'Truther' movements are against them. Hadashi ( talk) 11:20, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
Listen Anti-Z people: You can fight it all you like in your little blog world. However, Wikipedia is about what is happening and provable, not what you think the quality of TZM is. It just pathetic to those who come here and post crap blog rants about TZM about pretend it is a source. Live and let live. I will be watching this page to profile you trolls who continue this and will make sure you are removed from Wikipedia. Reinventor098 ( talk) 00:30, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
You just exposed your bias and hence your epic fail. Listen- this is an article about what TZM is. If you don't want them on Wikipedia, then ask for the articles to be removed. Otherwise, you are just trolling Reinventor098 ( talk) 00:46, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Except this one apparently, which has precisely one source (a 2009 NYT article) that isn't a product of the 'movement' or its associates. Before I delete swathes of this article as the unsourced puffery it clearly is, does someone care to find evidence that anyone is actually taking any notice of them? AndyTheGrump ( talk) 00:35, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
[1] The organization is specifically about replacing opinions with the scientific method. This shows you not to know what the topic is. Perhaps we need to word this more clearly. The way you grab the microphone and pretend to represent the organization isn't appropriate. That part is obvious.
Also replacing the mention of 600 simultaneous events with a single one not just seems like an attempt to marginalize the topic.
original text:
Your idea of coverage:
Clearly an attempt towards marginalization. The source might be primary, it will do just fine unless some one objects. Your objection appears nothing more than an attempt towards misrepresentation. We already had a lone admin who thought it was cool to lock the article and misrepresent the movement pretending it should be perfectly cool with everyone while it obviously is not.
http://zday2010.org/zday-events/zday-2011
That and the number in the NYT should be good enough.
But what am I even talking about, you've basically deleted the entire article line by line.
An historic event only has to be note worthy in that time frame, when such notability is established it doesn't just vanish over time.
84.106.26.81 ( talk) 22:50, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
The sources are good. Just deleting the entire article line by line does not qualify as productive editing. You are not improving anything. 84.106.26.81 ( talk) 23:23, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
It now says: "Zeitgeist claims that In 2009 there were more than 450 events held in 70 countries around the world" [3]
Exactly the way it did a week ago.
84.106.26.81 ( talk) 23:29, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
None of the sources provided offer any credible evidence of a global event. All "facts" regarding a large scale event such as 300+ global events needs some reliable sourcing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seagram ( talk • contribs) 18:09, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Listen: If you don't like TZM- good for you. That doesn't mean it doesn't deserve a correct, basic unbiased representation on Wikipedia. I will be reporting all actions from here out if this biased vandalism continues. There is a basic set of simple data about Press, Actions and true references to the Mission Statement of The Zeitgeist Movement. If you want to "invent" their purpose to spins it -- please do so on the many hate blogs out there -- have some respect for what wikipedia is supposed to be doing here. Seriously. Reinventor098 ( talk) 06:15, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Hi Andy! Thats nice. Good to see how qualified you are to edit this page since you have a clear hatred for the group. Keep vandalizing so I can keep reporting you! Reinventor098 ( talk) 01:27, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
Okay guys, take your personal disagreements outside or stick to discussing the actual contents of this article. While you take a moment to chill, have a read over WP:VANDALISM ("vandalism" has a specific meaning on Wikipedia, don't just throw that word around), WP:AGF (assume good faith), and WP:NPA (no personal attacks). The above convo about trolls and cults is not very interesting or helpful for the rest of us. — Jeraphine Gryphon ( talk) 20:48, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
It is not important or relevant that the current members of the group/movement don't want to be associated with The Venus Project, it's a historical fact that TZM acted as the activist arm of TVP (and was very largely inspired by TVP's ideas!). Please stop removing mentions of TVP from the article. You can present the movement however you like on your own websites, Wikipedia serves a different purpose. It's also true that the Zeitgeist films spawned the movement, whether they're officially considered to have done so or not. It's also true that people outside the movement probably can't name anyone else but Peter Joseph from the "leaders" of the movement, he is definitely a "key person". You'll notice there are other fields in the infobox for actual leaders and such -- we didn't use those fields. "Key people" is a milder term. It doesn't even mean anything official, it just means he's one of the visible people associated with the movement, which he is. — Jeraphine Gryphon ( talk) 17:18, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
(←) I have just removed a lot of detailed information about the organisation's activities sourced entirely to its own publicity. If the world outside has paid no attention to these activities, then neither do we. Cusop Dingle ( talk) 20:01, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
Ok, so I am having a hard time understanding the case being made here, might be because of a lack of sleep I do not know really. But for the record here is what I am disputing the legitimacy of it being removed: "Other projects include a weekly radio show that features different project and Chapter Coordinators [tzm_radio_shows], a media project, an official blog for contribution, a user submitted site for science and technology information. [5]" These are sources and everything that I did undid as a result. So Dingle, if you can explain to me how this violates what you say it does, it will be greatly appreciated as I am having a hard time understanding how a reference towards various projects TZM has going on is "unduly self-serving," "involve claims about third parties," and "the article is not based primarily on such sources." However, Dingle you gave the reason you edited it as "If the world outside has paid no attention to these activities, then neither do we," which makes no reference to anything regarding WP Standard for editing and read by anyone else, they would regard it as "your opinion. I apologize if I misunderstood you, but when in doubt clarify. Also, if Andy could give his reason for it violating the tags he indicated that would be helpful too. It might just a simple misunderstanding on one of our parts, or maybe its just the lack of sleep. Reason and Logic shall always prevail ( talk) 22:01, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
The reception section was a collection of carefully chosen, pro-Zeitgest quotes tossed in the article with nothing else. I removed the section as a quotefarm, POV and not encyclopediac in nature. Avashurov added the section back but removed the quotes, so it's now essentially a list of articles/sources. No context. No information. Just a list of article. I removed that with the edit comment of "Still removing the section - that's basically a list of sources. You need to write it in summary form and include both sides". Avashurov reverted that, saying it was my opinion. Rather than continue into an edit war, let's discuss this. The section, as it's written adds nothing to the article of an encyclopediac nature. That's contrary how article should appear on WP. A reception section is probably valid, but it MUST be written in summary style, based on sources and be balanced in it's coverage. Ravensfire ( talk) 19:19, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
The tag about copyright violation placed by Ravensfire is inapplicable as there is no copyrighted material presented. The information presented is important as The Venus Project has played significant role in The Zeitgeist Movement's history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Avashurov ( talk • contribs) 20:21, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
Zazaban Please, provide justification of your neutrality dispute so I can improve it or remove the tag. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Avashurov ( talk • contribs) 06:03, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
Re neutrality, it's understandable that the pro-TZM people here can't see it but the overall tone of the article is subtly (or not so subtly) promotional or approving. That combined with the excessive use of primary sources and being written by editors with a WP:COI, warrants the neutrality tag, which should stay until the article is clearly neutral. Regular editors have been trying to fix the issues but the (Redacted) keep returning the article to its POV state. — Jeraphine Gryphon ( talk) 16:59, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
Can somebody explain to me what is trying to be said here? It is so stuffed with buzzwords that I can't make heads or tails of it. If it means anything at all it should be rewritten in plain English. Zazaban ( talk) 20:50, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
I don't think the philosophy section is necessary at all, what we're aiming to cover can be covered in summary in the Activities section -- the section describes what they do and what they promote. It's not like they're a philosophical movement, most of their focus is on practical reality. If there's anything valuable in the current Philosophy section then I vote we rephrase it and move it to Activities (we can of course also rename that subsection if there's a better alternative).
Not that it's very important but I was a TZM supporter a couple of years ago (and still find TVP fascinating) -- I don't agree with the above notions that their actual views are vague and meaningless. I don't know what they're up to these days, but in any case the portion of text that you're confused about is not the same thing as their actual views.
If anyone has time, the fourth and fifth faq may be useful (in looking for their own description of their philosophy): http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/faq#faq4 — Jeraphine Gryphon ( talk) 15:24, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
This may be important to mention somewhere: "Out of a general respect to TVP's work with what they consider to be the proprietary notion of a "Resource-Based Economy" [RBE] and its definition, some in The Movement prefer to adapt to the term "Resource-Based Economic Model" [RBEM] to separate from the Fresco-specific association/definition and allow for a more general flexible understanding of the Train of Thought." (The movement itself uses the term/abbreviation RBEM, which should be mentioned in the article.) — Jeraphine Gryphon ( talk) 15:58, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
The article has just been tagged for advert, fansite, globalize, onesource, technical, refimprove and toofewopinions all in one go. Discussion of one, some or all of those would be useful. Cusop Dingle ( talk) 17:15, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
Ankh, are you sure you know what you're doing? Why did you revert that edit of mine? I made the part about the 2011 and 2012 ZDay events a bit shorter since they didn't receive outside coverage. If that wasn't okay then I'm sorry I'm not a mind reader and can't tell what your actual issue was. And can you or anyone maybe point out where these alleged 'buzzwords' are so we'll know what to fix? — Jeraphine Gryphon ( talk) 23:41, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
I'm going to unwatch this now, feel free to ruin the article as you please. Ankh, I had edited both of those terms that you quoted and either way they didn't seem to qualify as 'buzzwords'. But thanks for insulting me anyway. — Jeraphine Gryphon ( talk) 15:06, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
The article, which bases mostly on orginal sources, cannot be held neutral, because of zg people trying to influence it in their way of thinking. It should better be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blogotron ( talk • contribs) 18:09, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Repeated false accusations of 'vandalism' etc at The Zeitgeist Movement article. Since the person reported isn't the only one making such false accusations, I suggest that other TZM supporters take note, and consider their actions before engaging in such behaviour. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 18:14, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
The article still doesn't reflect what the movement is, and that is unfortunate. For example, the critizesing of the fractional reserve banking system, needs further explanation. The socalled 'critique' stems from observation and research into the current socio-economic system. It would be great if we could come to an agreement of what should be written in the article and what should not. And for the criticism source; a criticism section. For the sources from the Zeitgeist Movement; they are the main description of the movement, as they are from the movement. Not forum posts, but mission statement and such. René Bjerg Madsen ( talk) 07:51, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
Ankh.Morpork, thank you for the feedback. Could you please explain exactly what is meant by 'more POV gobbledygook' and your objection to the resources I cited. I believe the resources are reasonably reliable. They contain articles in the NYT and the Huffington Post, and interviews in Russia Today (RT) and on the Larry King TV show in 1974. The references also contained books by Jacque Fresco and James S. Albus, a US government engineer and prolific inventor and author. As regards the reference by Elbus, I clearly articulated he does not mention TZM in his book, and I mentioned there are differences between Elbus's solutions and TZM's proposed solutions, but I also I explained that there are significant similarities between Elbus's views of the problems of the current global socio-economic system and the views of TZM. So respectfully could you please explain why these resources are considered 'unreliable.' I realize they are not peer-reviewed articles in academic/ professional journals. But the vast majority of resources in the vast majority of wikipedia articles are not peer-reviewed articles in academic/ professional journals. Why apply a different standard to this TZM article? Or am I wrong on this or missing something?
This may be an issue of Deletionism and inclusionism in Wikipedia. If I'm an inclusionist and another editor is, say, perhaps a deletionist, does the wholesale removal of my edits imply that the deletionist must prevail? Is this some sort of power play? Not sure.
But perhaps the most disturbing thing that happened is that all my edits were reverted wholesale, without a single edit remaining. This included not only the wholesale reversion of my attempts at trying to explain the basic principles of TZM/ RBE (since several previous readers commented on this talk page that they still don't understand the basic principles of TZM/RBE), , using what I believe was a reasonably neutral tone (and considering it is probably impossible to maintain a perfectly/ ideally neutral tone on such articles, because the subject matter is considerably out of the mainstream consensus). But perhaps just as disturbing is the wholesale deletion of my other edits which were only minor and moderate corrections of typos, modifications to clarify (but not significantly modify) existing sentences that existed on the page previously to my edits, and other similar minor to moderate edits that did not contain any POV (unless one applies a very liberal definition of POV)... all these edits have been censored, without exception, even those edits that had nothing to do with quoting sources (whether 'reliable' or 'unreliable') .... respectfully please explain. At the present time, these actions are very disquieting and disturbing. Best regards and thanks, IjonTichyIjonTichy ( talk) 23:18, 22 April 2012 (UTC)