This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Whitechapel murders article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 100 days |
Whitechapel murders is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on February 13, 2011. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Whitechapel murders. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 23:05, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
While closely examining this image of Whitechapel, I noticed there is a Buckle Street under the "A" in WHITECHAPEL. Is anyone aware of a person connected with the Ripper case who lived in Buckle Street? A long shot, but maybe the Ripper was giving a clue when he wrote "till I do get buckled". Akld guy ( talk) 19:16, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
Given that the work of Hallie Rubenhold has shed considerable doubt on whether some of the victims were prostitutes at all, should this be reflected in the article? Beginning The Five with the idea of focusing on the most famous sex workers in history, Rubenhold was shocked by what she found while searching through coroner inquests, medical, workhouse and police records, and sensationalist newspaper reports – or rather, what she didn’t find. There was no evidence that three of the women – Polly, Annie and Catherine – were sex workers at all. Instead, Polly and Catherine had worked as domestic servants or in laundries, and Annie was supported by her husband, who worked as a private coachman. ( https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/mar/01/hallie-rubenhold-jack-the-ripper-victims) Sheila1988 ( talk) 15:54, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
A 'fringe theorist' doesn't win the most prestigious prize for nonfiction in the UK, or is shortlisted for the most prestigious history prize in the country. In both cases, the judges were academics and some of the most eminent historians in the field, including Sir Richard Evans, whose work Ripperologists like yourselves use to attempt to discredit the work. So, indeed the book has been thoroughly vetted by actual historians, not amateurs. Your biases are completely transparent. https://thebailliegiffordprize.co.uk/ https://www.wolfsonhistoryprize.org.uk/past-winners/2020-winners/the-five/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Year1 ( talk • contribs) 14:51, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
You haven't addressed this issue: So, if the consensus view was sexist or racist (for example) that would stand, and you would prevent someone with research pointing to something that contradicted that from having their work discussed because racists and sexists disagreed with it? Why not allow a contradictory view to be expressed, especially if that contradictory view has been widely applauded by scholars? Nor have you addressed how it is you think you can prove a negative? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Year1 ( talk • contribs) 16:54, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
'Fringe theorists are exactly the ones who win prizes' says someone who has sat on numerous Nobel and Pulizter judging panels. 'Excluding unreliable evidence' based on a knowledgable evaluation of those sources is precisely why fellow academics have judged this book to be worthy. You're really proving to me why Wikipedia has just become a platform for terrible scholarship. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Year1 ( talk • contribs) 16:47, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
But you don't know what was in the records. That's the point. You can't base a theory on evidence which no one has seen. You can't prove a negative.
No, of course it has nothing to do with 'her being a female'.
Except the argument isn't based on information that isn't there, it's based on information that's been overlooked or misinterpreted and builds an argument against the use of or reliance upon other evidence, like unverifiable witness statements and newspaper reports. It includes a wider social context and an in-depth examination of the systems and patterns of sex work versus working class social norms to make its points. Read the book and see for yourself, rather than banning it because it rubs you up the wrong way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Year1 ( talk • contribs) 19:04, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
Every few years there is a new "work" that comes up with alternative, often controversial theories. Just as regularly they are forgotten about. As stated above, we need to stick with the established sources and not pander to those who want to make a quick buck by putting a new slant on history. -- John B123 ( talk) 17:52, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
How much of the previous writing on this issue has been vetted and has acceptance among scholars, or has been reviewed and vetted by academics? Even the first male professional historian to write on this subject, Philip Sugden, thought that there had been a lot of sloppy scholarship. A lot of previous writers on the Ripper might have a low opinion of each other's work. Hallie Rubenhold does have a degree in history. See George Chapman (murderer) for an example of how to deal sensibly with conflicting views on an aspect of the case. PatGallacher ( talk) 18:03, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
You're accusing someone who is a widely recognised expert in the history of prostitution and who has written at least two books about the subject of 'misunderstanding' the definition of prostitution. I'm assuming you occupy a chair at a university in the history of sex and regularly attend academic conferences on the subject? Please do list a bibliography of the articles you've had published in peer reviewed journals on the history of prostitution. No? Then you must be a social historian specialising in the lives of working class women and understand the nuances of their lives and how their sexual behaviour intersected with social conventions? Or how 19th century social attitudes were responsible for labelling women? You obviously know more about how ALL poor Victorian women earned their living when they fell on hard times better than the Met Police did in 1888, because they admitted they couldn't even distinguish between a poor woman and a prostitute who may have worked 'casually'. Aagin, would love to see your list of publications on the subject of working class women's sexual behaviour. Not so sure you're the best person to adjudicate on this subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Year1 ( talk • contribs) 19:26, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
Whatever you might think of Ms. Rubenhold's book, I sense some original research going on here. PatGallacher ( talk) 22:52, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
"that they were only on the the streets at the time because they didn't have the necessary threepence for a night's lodging"
That only fits one of the "canonical five": Annie Chapman. She didn't have enough money for her lodging during her final night, "and went out to earn some on the street."
Mary Ann Nichols was renting a room in a lodging house in Spitalfields at the time of her death, and had a roommate (Emily "Nelly" Holland). Elizabeth Stride rented a room in a lodging house in Whitechapel, and stayed on-and-off at the living quarters of her lover Michael Kidney in Devonshire Street. Catherine Eddowes was renting a room at a lodging house in Flower and Dean Street, Spitalfields, sharing the room with her lover John Kelly. Mary Jane Kelly rented 13 Miller's Court, a furnished single room at the back of 26 Dorset Street, Spitalfields, and reportedly allowed female friends to spend the night there. Kelly was also the only one of the "canonical five" who was murdered in her own residence. Dimadick ( talk) 10:14, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
How is the idea that history mislabeled these women as prostitutes a fringe theory? I believe the sexism and classism of the time (as well as today) is well documented. Rubenhold takes great care to uncover the details of these women's lives, and calling into question these assumptions isn't "fringe" but rather an important and critical look at history and how it's been told. Furthermore, her stating that ""At times, she had to stop writing as she was “so upset and furious” at the ways society had failed the five."@ Berean Hunter: why is that a red flag? Doing research on the time would make any woman upset about how these women were failed, as so many at the time were. I think it is more of a red flag that so many of you criticizing Rubenhold's work haven't seemed to actually read it. -- Lcrawfish ( talk) 13:42, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
'History is the written record', on a tablet of stone? I think you'll find that any professional historian would disagree with your definition of history. History can be and is to be disputed. There are some 'hard facts', but most history is about context and validity of context. History is about the construction of arguments, it's not a recitation of lists of facts. From the comments above, I see very little understanding of what the practise of history actually entails. With regard to being 'dispassionate', I'd be surprised if you could find me one historian of the Holocaust or of enslaved people who isn't moved by what they've read. In that quote it says the author had to stop writing because she was angry. I read that as she stopped writing in order to remain dispassionate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Year1 ( talk • contribs) 18:10, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
Can we please stop analysing sources and attacking each other.
Slatersteven (
talk)
10:38, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
(Think I put this in teh wrong place, no harm done): Rubenhold is a reputable historian, published by a significant (albeit not specialist) publisher, I've not come across any reviews significant rebutting her work. The academic consensus can be summed up by the roundtable review
Kate Lister, Amy Milne-Smith, Manon Van Der Heijden & Eve Colpus (2020) The five: the untold lives of the women killed by Jack the Ripper, Women's History Review, DOI: 10.1080/09612025.2020.1720092
"Maybe these women did sell sex, although as Rubenhold demonstrates the evidence for this is far from certain." In a field as small as this, due weight would be to acknowledge that equally we cannot say for certain the women were victims of sexual exploitation, and maybe move to a position of stating they were seen as "prostitutes" (and include the scare quotes) Red Deathy ( talk) 11:10, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This is a case from the DRN in which the filing editor did not participate. The case is located at Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Whitechapel_Murders. The following is a summation, thanks. Galendalia CVU Member \ Chat Me Up 23:36, 14 May 2020 (UTC) DRN Volunteer
Users involved
Dispute overview
Any mention of The Five; the Untold Lives of the Women Killed by Jack the Ripper (2019) by Hallie Rubenhold is being systematically edited out of every page concerning the Whitechapel murders, as well as the biography pages of the five victims; Mary Ann Nichols, Annie Chapman, Elizabeth Stride, Catherine Eddowes, Mary Jane Kelly. The Five has won the 2019 Baillie Gifford Prize for nonfiction and is shortlisted for the 2020 Wolfson History Prize, the two most prestigious nonfiction awards in the UK. Wikipedia editors are banning any mention of it from Wikipedia pages claiming it is 'fringe'. The work has been universally recognised and applauded by some of the country's leading historians for its pains-taking research and thorough reevaluation of existing source material, but is considered anathema by amateur 'Ripperologists' who disagree with the argument put forward in the book that not all of the women killed were prostitutes. The author has been the victim of misogynistic trolling and on-line abuse as a result. The Wikipedia editors of these pages wish to uphold the so-called 'consensus' view maintained by Ripperologists by banning Rubenhold's book and thereby excluding any mention of this important work within the canon of books on the Whitechapel murders, while also claiming they have to be impartial. To date, no scholarship by any woman is mentioned on any of the wiki pages discussing the Whitechapel murders, a brutally violent series of murders of women. This does not offer balance or impartiality and appears to be a deliberate act of sexism.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
Require these editors to allow fair mention and discussion of other theories, information and scholarly works, especially when those works are recognised as legitimate mainstream works vetted by academic professionals outside of the circle of hobbyists (Ripperologists) who wish to control public discourse and exclude women.
There is no evidence of any misogynistic trolling, online abuse or sexism at the Whitechapel murders page or any other wikipedia page related to Jack the Ripper, and none has been presented here. The opening party has an undeclared conflict of interest. If the book under discussion is "universally recognised and applauded" then in time it will be incorporated into the articles as it gains credence and support. The opening party should follow the advice at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. DrKay ( talk) 06:35, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Rubenhold's book disagrees with the raft of previously accepted WP:RS sources over whether the victims were prostitutes. The "systematically edited out" is in fact resistance to the opening party changing the article to reflect Rubenhold's views, dismissing all other sources.
The book has been applauded by some but dismissed by others. Claiming those who support Rubenhold's theories are "country's leading historians" and those who dismiss it are "amateur 'Ripperologists'" is a gross misrepresentation of the books reception. Literary awards are give for "good reads". They are not the same thing as academic or scientific awards that are based on content not writing skills.
Rubenhold's book has been discussed on Talk:Whitechapel murders previously and the general consensus is that its not a WP:RS. The only "dispute" I can see here is that the opening party is not prepared to accept the principles of consensus, which is one of the fundamentals of Wikipedia, and WP:DUE weight.
I would add to DrKay's comments above that it matters little what sex an author is, it's the content that counts. To infer other editors are exhibiting sexism when they disagree with you is totally unacceptable. -- John B123 ( talk) 15:45, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, it does not belong on Wikipedia, regardless of whether it is true or you can prove it, except perhaps in some ancillary article.I don't know how to qualify extremely small minority in this case nor am I sure we apply exactly that standard. One person tends to be a very small minority but in some topics one person might meet the threshold for a notable theory I guess. Doubleday is not an academic imprint and this is not a book targeted or vetted as academic history but the author can considered an expert with an opinion. I am not experienced in applying FRINGE in a situation like this, but my impression is that we don't always do a careful analysis of just how representative an expert with a novel idea is before mentioning the new theory in an article. My gut instinct would be to include it briefly in the individual biographies to be fair to the subjects (even though not BLP) and since included there give a very brief mention of a new theory in this article. I would not include it in the lead at all. At most I would soften the phrasing "were prostitutes" to "were believed to be prostitutes" but I don't know that we have enough for that. The allegations of sexism are way out of line from what I can tell. —DIYeditor ( talk) 01:32, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
I think it may be time to let some fresh blood in. Slatersteven ( talk) 15:07, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
Nobody questioned this, until this author, 130+ years later, despite general consensus among all researchers and no printed contemporary 19th century documentation to the contrary. What evidence is there more than a century later to support her claims? Now, if Rubenhold's book was about a potential new suspect or her theory Subject A or Subject X was the Ripper, then a referenced addition on the Jack the Ripper suspects article would be more than welcome and an insertion on the Bibliography section of this article appreciated. In reference to the previous contributor's comment, I can see merit in inclusion of sterile, verifiable facts such as the suicide date of Chapman's father, as, I assume, the death certificate can be sought online or by other means and it isn't therefore conjecture a date and method of death as opposed to what and why any woman was doing in the early hours of the morning in a conveniently dark corner of Mitre Square or a yard known to have been frequented by prostitutes in Hanbury Street in the early hours of the morning before their bodies were found there..-- Kieronoldham ( talk) 01:58, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
@ Red Deathy. We are checking the facts, as have many others, far more eminent than us, before our fathers and even grandfathers were born. She "suggests" he attacked as they slept? She is using wishful thinking to override all the facts. Nobody is denying the human cost, and the painful circumstances which led to the lives of these women in this section of the East End by 1888. If anything, Wikipedia (and other sites) clearly illustrate the sheer hardship of their lives, and an overall contextual focus of attention on both the Ripper and Whitechapel murders articles is directed at the poverty, circumstances compounding the poverty, and the resulting desperation. I read somewhere (not in a fringe theorist's book) that the ages of the girls and women who even occasionally sold sex for food, shelter, and a temporary respite from the cotemporary daily hardships of life (alcohol) was the age of puberty up until the early 60s. Wikipedia is the place to present information in a balanced, verifiable manner. If, as you seem to imply, Rubenhold's overall efforts are to humanize the victims, then, although understandable, it has already been done (and rightly so). Having said this, it shows a selective intent from the outset on her part. Nobody derides or dismisses the human cost here.-- Kieronoldham ( talk) 01:55, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
Right, there is no removal of sourced information (3) is about moving mention of prostitution to its own sentence and deprecating the use of "prostitute Jane Doe"; (2) Endemic sounds medicalising, and "highly frequent" or "prevalent" or "common" could substitute; (1) it's WP:undue to mention that many were prostitutes without saying why we're mentioning that- after all, all of them were alcoholics, but that is't mentioned. So, either prostitute should be removed from the lead, or made clear why it is there. All that takes is a simple "It has been suspected some were murdered due to their involvement in prostitution or by a suspected client."(properly sourced) Red Deathy ( talk) 11:54, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
OK, so, to go back a step. My concerns are that the focus on prostitution is WP:UNDUE and insensitively handled. I think I've made a good case that the word endemic is both inaccurate and inappropriate (I think that should be an easy change to make); however, none of my other proposals have found support. I'd like to ask other editors what changes we could make that could address these problems, particularly DrKay. It's clear there currently isn't a consensus, but I'd like to think there is scope to build one. Red Deathy ( talk) 08:18, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
"A. adj. Constantly or regularly found among a (specified) people, or in a (specified) country". The ODE says:
"1 (of a disease or condition) regularly found among particular people or in a certain area: complacency is endemic in industry today."Merriam-Webster's definition:
"1a: belonging or native to a particular people or country b: characteristic of or prevalent in a particular field, area, or environment". I did not notice anyone agree with your argument, only reject it, so I am perplexed by why you act as if you prevailed on that topic. Google results for "prostitution is endemic": 330,000. Google books results for "prostitution is endemic": 291. Google books results for "prostitution was endemic": 361. Google books results for "endemic prostitution": 195. —DIYeditor ( talk) 11:44, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
Yes I think we can close this now, we have a clear consensus. Slatersteven ( talk) 13:00, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
Jack the Ripper, pseudonymous murderer of at least five women, all prostitutes, in or near the Whitechapel district of London’s East End, between August and November 1888.—DIYeditor ( talk) 13:17, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
How about this: "Most, if not all, of the victims—Emma Elizabeth Smith, Martha Tabram, Mary Ann "Polly" Nichols, Annie Chapman, Elizabeth Stride, Catherine Eddowes, Mary Jane Kelly, Rose Mylett, Alice McKenzie, Frances Coles, and an unidentified woman—were prostitutes, feeding the sensation horror in reporting of the crimes and leading to parts of the Tory press holding the victims responsible for their own fate. ref Curtis, L.. Jack the Ripper and the London Press, Yale University Press, 2001. ProQuest Ebook Central, https://ebookcentral.proquest.com/lib/ucl/detail.action?docID=3419898. pg. 132/ref" Ah thangyow. Red Deathy ( talk) 07:52, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
Sorry, nearly forgot about this. I think, to progress discussion and to clarify how it would look, I'm going to WP:BRD this and put a version in place so we can see concretely how it would look/fit. Fully expect reversion, but what the hey. Red Deathy ( talk) 07:16, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
To make this easier.
leading to sensational reporting of the crimes and claims that the victims' trade made them "easy prey".
Please also give a reason.
Please make alternative suggestions here (with reasons)
We have talked about this ad nauseam, can we please lust have one actual decision? Not more of the same arguments? Slatersteven ( talk) 09:34, 27 May 2020 (UTC) Ellymoo ( talk) 13:57, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
Simply allow the links and book title to be included in the articles, so that people can make up their own minds. The continual refusal to allow any inclusion of this work makes it the more powerful.
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Whitechapel murders article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 100 days |
Whitechapel murders is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on February 13, 2011. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Whitechapel murders. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 23:05, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
While closely examining this image of Whitechapel, I noticed there is a Buckle Street under the "A" in WHITECHAPEL. Is anyone aware of a person connected with the Ripper case who lived in Buckle Street? A long shot, but maybe the Ripper was giving a clue when he wrote "till I do get buckled". Akld guy ( talk) 19:16, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
Given that the work of Hallie Rubenhold has shed considerable doubt on whether some of the victims were prostitutes at all, should this be reflected in the article? Beginning The Five with the idea of focusing on the most famous sex workers in history, Rubenhold was shocked by what she found while searching through coroner inquests, medical, workhouse and police records, and sensationalist newspaper reports – or rather, what she didn’t find. There was no evidence that three of the women – Polly, Annie and Catherine – were sex workers at all. Instead, Polly and Catherine had worked as domestic servants or in laundries, and Annie was supported by her husband, who worked as a private coachman. ( https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/mar/01/hallie-rubenhold-jack-the-ripper-victims) Sheila1988 ( talk) 15:54, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
A 'fringe theorist' doesn't win the most prestigious prize for nonfiction in the UK, or is shortlisted for the most prestigious history prize in the country. In both cases, the judges were academics and some of the most eminent historians in the field, including Sir Richard Evans, whose work Ripperologists like yourselves use to attempt to discredit the work. So, indeed the book has been thoroughly vetted by actual historians, not amateurs. Your biases are completely transparent. https://thebailliegiffordprize.co.uk/ https://www.wolfsonhistoryprize.org.uk/past-winners/2020-winners/the-five/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Year1 ( talk • contribs) 14:51, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
You haven't addressed this issue: So, if the consensus view was sexist or racist (for example) that would stand, and you would prevent someone with research pointing to something that contradicted that from having their work discussed because racists and sexists disagreed with it? Why not allow a contradictory view to be expressed, especially if that contradictory view has been widely applauded by scholars? Nor have you addressed how it is you think you can prove a negative? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Year1 ( talk • contribs) 16:54, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
'Fringe theorists are exactly the ones who win prizes' says someone who has sat on numerous Nobel and Pulizter judging panels. 'Excluding unreliable evidence' based on a knowledgable evaluation of those sources is precisely why fellow academics have judged this book to be worthy. You're really proving to me why Wikipedia has just become a platform for terrible scholarship. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Year1 ( talk • contribs) 16:47, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
But you don't know what was in the records. That's the point. You can't base a theory on evidence which no one has seen. You can't prove a negative.
No, of course it has nothing to do with 'her being a female'.
Except the argument isn't based on information that isn't there, it's based on information that's been overlooked or misinterpreted and builds an argument against the use of or reliance upon other evidence, like unverifiable witness statements and newspaper reports. It includes a wider social context and an in-depth examination of the systems and patterns of sex work versus working class social norms to make its points. Read the book and see for yourself, rather than banning it because it rubs you up the wrong way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Year1 ( talk • contribs) 19:04, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
Every few years there is a new "work" that comes up with alternative, often controversial theories. Just as regularly they are forgotten about. As stated above, we need to stick with the established sources and not pander to those who want to make a quick buck by putting a new slant on history. -- John B123 ( talk) 17:52, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
How much of the previous writing on this issue has been vetted and has acceptance among scholars, or has been reviewed and vetted by academics? Even the first male professional historian to write on this subject, Philip Sugden, thought that there had been a lot of sloppy scholarship. A lot of previous writers on the Ripper might have a low opinion of each other's work. Hallie Rubenhold does have a degree in history. See George Chapman (murderer) for an example of how to deal sensibly with conflicting views on an aspect of the case. PatGallacher ( talk) 18:03, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
You're accusing someone who is a widely recognised expert in the history of prostitution and who has written at least two books about the subject of 'misunderstanding' the definition of prostitution. I'm assuming you occupy a chair at a university in the history of sex and regularly attend academic conferences on the subject? Please do list a bibliography of the articles you've had published in peer reviewed journals on the history of prostitution. No? Then you must be a social historian specialising in the lives of working class women and understand the nuances of their lives and how their sexual behaviour intersected with social conventions? Or how 19th century social attitudes were responsible for labelling women? You obviously know more about how ALL poor Victorian women earned their living when they fell on hard times better than the Met Police did in 1888, because they admitted they couldn't even distinguish between a poor woman and a prostitute who may have worked 'casually'. Aagin, would love to see your list of publications on the subject of working class women's sexual behaviour. Not so sure you're the best person to adjudicate on this subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Year1 ( talk • contribs) 19:26, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
Whatever you might think of Ms. Rubenhold's book, I sense some original research going on here. PatGallacher ( talk) 22:52, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
"that they were only on the the streets at the time because they didn't have the necessary threepence for a night's lodging"
That only fits one of the "canonical five": Annie Chapman. She didn't have enough money for her lodging during her final night, "and went out to earn some on the street."
Mary Ann Nichols was renting a room in a lodging house in Spitalfields at the time of her death, and had a roommate (Emily "Nelly" Holland). Elizabeth Stride rented a room in a lodging house in Whitechapel, and stayed on-and-off at the living quarters of her lover Michael Kidney in Devonshire Street. Catherine Eddowes was renting a room at a lodging house in Flower and Dean Street, Spitalfields, sharing the room with her lover John Kelly. Mary Jane Kelly rented 13 Miller's Court, a furnished single room at the back of 26 Dorset Street, Spitalfields, and reportedly allowed female friends to spend the night there. Kelly was also the only one of the "canonical five" who was murdered in her own residence. Dimadick ( talk) 10:14, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
How is the idea that history mislabeled these women as prostitutes a fringe theory? I believe the sexism and classism of the time (as well as today) is well documented. Rubenhold takes great care to uncover the details of these women's lives, and calling into question these assumptions isn't "fringe" but rather an important and critical look at history and how it's been told. Furthermore, her stating that ""At times, she had to stop writing as she was “so upset and furious” at the ways society had failed the five."@ Berean Hunter: why is that a red flag? Doing research on the time would make any woman upset about how these women were failed, as so many at the time were. I think it is more of a red flag that so many of you criticizing Rubenhold's work haven't seemed to actually read it. -- Lcrawfish ( talk) 13:42, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
'History is the written record', on a tablet of stone? I think you'll find that any professional historian would disagree with your definition of history. History can be and is to be disputed. There are some 'hard facts', but most history is about context and validity of context. History is about the construction of arguments, it's not a recitation of lists of facts. From the comments above, I see very little understanding of what the practise of history actually entails. With regard to being 'dispassionate', I'd be surprised if you could find me one historian of the Holocaust or of enslaved people who isn't moved by what they've read. In that quote it says the author had to stop writing because she was angry. I read that as she stopped writing in order to remain dispassionate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Year1 ( talk • contribs) 18:10, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
Can we please stop analysing sources and attacking each other.
Slatersteven (
talk)
10:38, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
(Think I put this in teh wrong place, no harm done): Rubenhold is a reputable historian, published by a significant (albeit not specialist) publisher, I've not come across any reviews significant rebutting her work. The academic consensus can be summed up by the roundtable review
Kate Lister, Amy Milne-Smith, Manon Van Der Heijden & Eve Colpus (2020) The five: the untold lives of the women killed by Jack the Ripper, Women's History Review, DOI: 10.1080/09612025.2020.1720092
"Maybe these women did sell sex, although as Rubenhold demonstrates the evidence for this is far from certain." In a field as small as this, due weight would be to acknowledge that equally we cannot say for certain the women were victims of sexual exploitation, and maybe move to a position of stating they were seen as "prostitutes" (and include the scare quotes) Red Deathy ( talk) 11:10, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This is a case from the DRN in which the filing editor did not participate. The case is located at Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Whitechapel_Murders. The following is a summation, thanks. Galendalia CVU Member \ Chat Me Up 23:36, 14 May 2020 (UTC) DRN Volunteer
Users involved
Dispute overview
Any mention of The Five; the Untold Lives of the Women Killed by Jack the Ripper (2019) by Hallie Rubenhold is being systematically edited out of every page concerning the Whitechapel murders, as well as the biography pages of the five victims; Mary Ann Nichols, Annie Chapman, Elizabeth Stride, Catherine Eddowes, Mary Jane Kelly. The Five has won the 2019 Baillie Gifford Prize for nonfiction and is shortlisted for the 2020 Wolfson History Prize, the two most prestigious nonfiction awards in the UK. Wikipedia editors are banning any mention of it from Wikipedia pages claiming it is 'fringe'. The work has been universally recognised and applauded by some of the country's leading historians for its pains-taking research and thorough reevaluation of existing source material, but is considered anathema by amateur 'Ripperologists' who disagree with the argument put forward in the book that not all of the women killed were prostitutes. The author has been the victim of misogynistic trolling and on-line abuse as a result. The Wikipedia editors of these pages wish to uphold the so-called 'consensus' view maintained by Ripperologists by banning Rubenhold's book and thereby excluding any mention of this important work within the canon of books on the Whitechapel murders, while also claiming they have to be impartial. To date, no scholarship by any woman is mentioned on any of the wiki pages discussing the Whitechapel murders, a brutally violent series of murders of women. This does not offer balance or impartiality and appears to be a deliberate act of sexism.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
Require these editors to allow fair mention and discussion of other theories, information and scholarly works, especially when those works are recognised as legitimate mainstream works vetted by academic professionals outside of the circle of hobbyists (Ripperologists) who wish to control public discourse and exclude women.
There is no evidence of any misogynistic trolling, online abuse or sexism at the Whitechapel murders page or any other wikipedia page related to Jack the Ripper, and none has been presented here. The opening party has an undeclared conflict of interest. If the book under discussion is "universally recognised and applauded" then in time it will be incorporated into the articles as it gains credence and support. The opening party should follow the advice at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. DrKay ( talk) 06:35, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Rubenhold's book disagrees with the raft of previously accepted WP:RS sources over whether the victims were prostitutes. The "systematically edited out" is in fact resistance to the opening party changing the article to reflect Rubenhold's views, dismissing all other sources.
The book has been applauded by some but dismissed by others. Claiming those who support Rubenhold's theories are "country's leading historians" and those who dismiss it are "amateur 'Ripperologists'" is a gross misrepresentation of the books reception. Literary awards are give for "good reads". They are not the same thing as academic or scientific awards that are based on content not writing skills.
Rubenhold's book has been discussed on Talk:Whitechapel murders previously and the general consensus is that its not a WP:RS. The only "dispute" I can see here is that the opening party is not prepared to accept the principles of consensus, which is one of the fundamentals of Wikipedia, and WP:DUE weight.
I would add to DrKay's comments above that it matters little what sex an author is, it's the content that counts. To infer other editors are exhibiting sexism when they disagree with you is totally unacceptable. -- John B123 ( talk) 15:45, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, it does not belong on Wikipedia, regardless of whether it is true or you can prove it, except perhaps in some ancillary article.I don't know how to qualify extremely small minority in this case nor am I sure we apply exactly that standard. One person tends to be a very small minority but in some topics one person might meet the threshold for a notable theory I guess. Doubleday is not an academic imprint and this is not a book targeted or vetted as academic history but the author can considered an expert with an opinion. I am not experienced in applying FRINGE in a situation like this, but my impression is that we don't always do a careful analysis of just how representative an expert with a novel idea is before mentioning the new theory in an article. My gut instinct would be to include it briefly in the individual biographies to be fair to the subjects (even though not BLP) and since included there give a very brief mention of a new theory in this article. I would not include it in the lead at all. At most I would soften the phrasing "were prostitutes" to "were believed to be prostitutes" but I don't know that we have enough for that. The allegations of sexism are way out of line from what I can tell. —DIYeditor ( talk) 01:32, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
I think it may be time to let some fresh blood in. Slatersteven ( talk) 15:07, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
Nobody questioned this, until this author, 130+ years later, despite general consensus among all researchers and no printed contemporary 19th century documentation to the contrary. What evidence is there more than a century later to support her claims? Now, if Rubenhold's book was about a potential new suspect or her theory Subject A or Subject X was the Ripper, then a referenced addition on the Jack the Ripper suspects article would be more than welcome and an insertion on the Bibliography section of this article appreciated. In reference to the previous contributor's comment, I can see merit in inclusion of sterile, verifiable facts such as the suicide date of Chapman's father, as, I assume, the death certificate can be sought online or by other means and it isn't therefore conjecture a date and method of death as opposed to what and why any woman was doing in the early hours of the morning in a conveniently dark corner of Mitre Square or a yard known to have been frequented by prostitutes in Hanbury Street in the early hours of the morning before their bodies were found there..-- Kieronoldham ( talk) 01:58, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
@ Red Deathy. We are checking the facts, as have many others, far more eminent than us, before our fathers and even grandfathers were born. She "suggests" he attacked as they slept? She is using wishful thinking to override all the facts. Nobody is denying the human cost, and the painful circumstances which led to the lives of these women in this section of the East End by 1888. If anything, Wikipedia (and other sites) clearly illustrate the sheer hardship of their lives, and an overall contextual focus of attention on both the Ripper and Whitechapel murders articles is directed at the poverty, circumstances compounding the poverty, and the resulting desperation. I read somewhere (not in a fringe theorist's book) that the ages of the girls and women who even occasionally sold sex for food, shelter, and a temporary respite from the cotemporary daily hardships of life (alcohol) was the age of puberty up until the early 60s. Wikipedia is the place to present information in a balanced, verifiable manner. If, as you seem to imply, Rubenhold's overall efforts are to humanize the victims, then, although understandable, it has already been done (and rightly so). Having said this, it shows a selective intent from the outset on her part. Nobody derides or dismisses the human cost here.-- Kieronoldham ( talk) 01:55, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
Right, there is no removal of sourced information (3) is about moving mention of prostitution to its own sentence and deprecating the use of "prostitute Jane Doe"; (2) Endemic sounds medicalising, and "highly frequent" or "prevalent" or "common" could substitute; (1) it's WP:undue to mention that many were prostitutes without saying why we're mentioning that- after all, all of them were alcoholics, but that is't mentioned. So, either prostitute should be removed from the lead, or made clear why it is there. All that takes is a simple "It has been suspected some were murdered due to their involvement in prostitution or by a suspected client."(properly sourced) Red Deathy ( talk) 11:54, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
OK, so, to go back a step. My concerns are that the focus on prostitution is WP:UNDUE and insensitively handled. I think I've made a good case that the word endemic is both inaccurate and inappropriate (I think that should be an easy change to make); however, none of my other proposals have found support. I'd like to ask other editors what changes we could make that could address these problems, particularly DrKay. It's clear there currently isn't a consensus, but I'd like to think there is scope to build one. Red Deathy ( talk) 08:18, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
"A. adj. Constantly or regularly found among a (specified) people, or in a (specified) country". The ODE says:
"1 (of a disease or condition) regularly found among particular people or in a certain area: complacency is endemic in industry today."Merriam-Webster's definition:
"1a: belonging or native to a particular people or country b: characteristic of or prevalent in a particular field, area, or environment". I did not notice anyone agree with your argument, only reject it, so I am perplexed by why you act as if you prevailed on that topic. Google results for "prostitution is endemic": 330,000. Google books results for "prostitution is endemic": 291. Google books results for "prostitution was endemic": 361. Google books results for "endemic prostitution": 195. —DIYeditor ( talk) 11:44, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
Yes I think we can close this now, we have a clear consensus. Slatersteven ( talk) 13:00, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
Jack the Ripper, pseudonymous murderer of at least five women, all prostitutes, in or near the Whitechapel district of London’s East End, between August and November 1888.—DIYeditor ( talk) 13:17, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
How about this: "Most, if not all, of the victims—Emma Elizabeth Smith, Martha Tabram, Mary Ann "Polly" Nichols, Annie Chapman, Elizabeth Stride, Catherine Eddowes, Mary Jane Kelly, Rose Mylett, Alice McKenzie, Frances Coles, and an unidentified woman—were prostitutes, feeding the sensation horror in reporting of the crimes and leading to parts of the Tory press holding the victims responsible for their own fate. ref Curtis, L.. Jack the Ripper and the London Press, Yale University Press, 2001. ProQuest Ebook Central, https://ebookcentral.proquest.com/lib/ucl/detail.action?docID=3419898. pg. 132/ref" Ah thangyow. Red Deathy ( talk) 07:52, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
Sorry, nearly forgot about this. I think, to progress discussion and to clarify how it would look, I'm going to WP:BRD this and put a version in place so we can see concretely how it would look/fit. Fully expect reversion, but what the hey. Red Deathy ( talk) 07:16, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
To make this easier.
leading to sensational reporting of the crimes and claims that the victims' trade made them "easy prey".
Please also give a reason.
Please make alternative suggestions here (with reasons)
We have talked about this ad nauseam, can we please lust have one actual decision? Not more of the same arguments? Slatersteven ( talk) 09:34, 27 May 2020 (UTC) Ellymoo ( talk) 13:57, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
Simply allow the links and book title to be included in the articles, so that people can make up their own minds. The continual refusal to allow any inclusion of this work makes it the more powerful.