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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
User:Ortolan88, thanks. Hyacinth 15:20, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
A question: Why is the Threepenny Opera called the Fourpenny Opera in France? ====> L'Opéra de quat'sous I have asked many people, but to no avail.
A remark: The German version of Mack The Knife has this line: ... liegt ein toter Mann am Strand, which is translated as: ... a dead man is lying on the beach. Sure enough, the German word Strand means beach. But the song refers to the Strand, a London street. The play is situated in Soho!
I have changed it to eight. Not only is my German good enough to tell the difference between "schwarz" and "acht", the subtitles of the bfi release of the film confirmed this.
What are the names of all the songs sung in the Threepenny Opera? Most know "Mack the Knife" is one, but what are the rest?
I've now added a list of these - I hope this isn't a copyright violation... Bob aka Linuxlad 16:08, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
@ Cielomobile, the score you are using can't be any good. At least the spellings "Ballade von der Sexuellen Hörigkeit", "Ballade vom Angenehmen Leben" and "Lied von der Unzulänglichkeit Menschlichen Strebens" are completely wrong, as adjectives are never capitalized in German. And—other than in English—there is no general capitalization of words in headlines in German. Look at Die Dreigroschenoper in German wikipedia for a complete and correct list of the German song titles according to Brecht's piece. — I know there are some variants between the piece (or the libretto) and the score (it's "Die Moritat von Mackie Messer" in the libretto but "Die Moritat vom Mackie Messer" in the score), but I don't have a score at hand to check them all out. -- FordPrefect42 22:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I have a copy of the original score, as written by Weill, and I have input the correct spelling, punctuation and such. The titles are in all capital letters, however, so I'll leave the capitalization to those who speak German better than me, but please do not change the placement of hyphons, etc. I know it may not be "proper German," but it's what is written on the score, and it should be respected. Keep in mind that it was written almost 80 years ago, and standard conventions for grammar most certainly have changed. -- Reilly 00:48, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Mac was a highwayman, and one of the most popular hangouts for such men was Blackheath, a suburb of London. The place must have been an inspiration for the character, but I wouldn't want to add that into the article without the proper citation, as it'd be OR.
Note: also posted on Talk:The Beggar's Opera. -- Ci e lomobile talk / contribs 07:13, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I've partially reverted some of the rather drastic changes to the article today, for instance the whole musical numbers section (I have the German score; trust that my names are correct). If you want to revert my changes, please discuss it here first, and provide some valid reasoning. -- Cie lomobile talk / contribs 03:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I've tried to add English translations to the musical numbers as best as I could, but I'm by no means a fluent speaker of German, so please correct me if you can. I only ask that you don't use the Blitzstein translation or something of the like, because I know German well enough to see that "Kannonensong" does not mean "Army Song." -- Cie lomobile talk / contribs 00:51, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Look above - Musical Numbers - Th.Linke ( talk) 14:48, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
There should be a section on the pair of films by Georg Wilhelm Pabst - as they differ markedly from the play (and somewhat from each other). Jackiespeel 17:47, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I think it would be helpful to have a brief history of the early productions of the show. When was the first English translation? (Was it the NY production?) When was the first production in the UK? When did the play first become successful outside Germany? etc etc There is a lot that would be interesting to read about. I am not an expert and cannot help directly. But I think more history would be a good addition. Davidpatrick 04:56, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't remember enough of it to correct the paragraph, but I remember that Lotte Lenya played Jenny in both the original and the Marc Blitzstein musical, and sung Seerauber Jenny as well as Pirate Jenny. 75.111.209.91 23:51, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, on my recording, I have at hand here, it's sung twice, by Polly and by Jenny. Th.Linke ( talk) 14:15, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I added the 1989 recording. - Th.Linke ( talk) 14:51, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I am unclear about the setting being "mildly anachronistic". If the setting is Victorian London, then there is nothing muddled about the reprieve coming from the Queen at the end. (Although you can get very muddled sometimes, as my father put it "I think people who say God Save The Queen are old-fashioned.") PatGallacher ( talk) 17:05, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Hi, sorry about the delay in getting back on this, but there a number of elements which are fundamentally anachronistic. Without getting down to cases, I can only opine that in my mind at the time of writing was how much more the backdrop is ineffably more the London of John Gay than that purported, of Victoriana. Frequently throughout the play these worlds collide. This is not necessarily to the detraction of the play itself, and one senses that this is done deliberately to reinforce the alienation which Brecht was striving for in epic theatre. I can do a case by case analysis if necessary, but tbh you could prove anachronism in more or less any work of fiction by this means. If you need further clarification, I would be more than happy to oblige. Sjc ( talk) 07:07, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
As a footnote I should add that either someone agrees with me or journalistic plagiarism knows no boundaries: [1] Sjc ( talk) 07:30, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Why did you restore the opera categories, Kleinzach? It's not an opera. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 08:13, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I have to wonder if any of those who call for it to be included in the opera category have actually seen Threepenny performed or heard the music. Just using the tertiary sources available to us, it can be argued either way. If we examine all the individual characteristics of the work and compare them to the characteristics of opera and musicals, however, I think it becomes clear that it is not an opera (the use of the word "opera" is satirical, of course...there is a speech just before the last finale in which Peachum mockingly calls the show an opera: "This is an opera, and we mean to do you well..."). Don't bother calling OR; WP:NOR refers to original research in the content of an article.
Anyway, this is sort of a silly debate and takes time away from other pursuits, so I will hold my tongue (fingers?) henceforth. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 19:51, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Alright, I don't agree with its categorization under Category:Operas or any of the other opera categories, but I won't fight the consensus. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 04:03, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
User:Ortolan88, thanks. Hyacinth 15:20, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
A question: Why is the Threepenny Opera called the Fourpenny Opera in France? ====> L'Opéra de quat'sous I have asked many people, but to no avail.
A remark: The German version of Mack The Knife has this line: ... liegt ein toter Mann am Strand, which is translated as: ... a dead man is lying on the beach. Sure enough, the German word Strand means beach. But the song refers to the Strand, a London street. The play is situated in Soho!
I have changed it to eight. Not only is my German good enough to tell the difference between "schwarz" and "acht", the subtitles of the bfi release of the film confirmed this.
What are the names of all the songs sung in the Threepenny Opera? Most know "Mack the Knife" is one, but what are the rest?
I've now added a list of these - I hope this isn't a copyright violation... Bob aka Linuxlad 16:08, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
@ Cielomobile, the score you are using can't be any good. At least the spellings "Ballade von der Sexuellen Hörigkeit", "Ballade vom Angenehmen Leben" and "Lied von der Unzulänglichkeit Menschlichen Strebens" are completely wrong, as adjectives are never capitalized in German. And—other than in English—there is no general capitalization of words in headlines in German. Look at Die Dreigroschenoper in German wikipedia for a complete and correct list of the German song titles according to Brecht's piece. — I know there are some variants between the piece (or the libretto) and the score (it's "Die Moritat von Mackie Messer" in the libretto but "Die Moritat vom Mackie Messer" in the score), but I don't have a score at hand to check them all out. -- FordPrefect42 22:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I have a copy of the original score, as written by Weill, and I have input the correct spelling, punctuation and such. The titles are in all capital letters, however, so I'll leave the capitalization to those who speak German better than me, but please do not change the placement of hyphons, etc. I know it may not be "proper German," but it's what is written on the score, and it should be respected. Keep in mind that it was written almost 80 years ago, and standard conventions for grammar most certainly have changed. -- Reilly 00:48, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Mac was a highwayman, and one of the most popular hangouts for such men was Blackheath, a suburb of London. The place must have been an inspiration for the character, but I wouldn't want to add that into the article without the proper citation, as it'd be OR.
Note: also posted on Talk:The Beggar's Opera. -- Ci e lomobile talk / contribs 07:13, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I've partially reverted some of the rather drastic changes to the article today, for instance the whole musical numbers section (I have the German score; trust that my names are correct). If you want to revert my changes, please discuss it here first, and provide some valid reasoning. -- Cie lomobile talk / contribs 03:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I've tried to add English translations to the musical numbers as best as I could, but I'm by no means a fluent speaker of German, so please correct me if you can. I only ask that you don't use the Blitzstein translation or something of the like, because I know German well enough to see that "Kannonensong" does not mean "Army Song." -- Cie lomobile talk / contribs 00:51, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Look above - Musical Numbers - Th.Linke ( talk) 14:48, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
There should be a section on the pair of films by Georg Wilhelm Pabst - as they differ markedly from the play (and somewhat from each other). Jackiespeel 17:47, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I think it would be helpful to have a brief history of the early productions of the show. When was the first English translation? (Was it the NY production?) When was the first production in the UK? When did the play first become successful outside Germany? etc etc There is a lot that would be interesting to read about. I am not an expert and cannot help directly. But I think more history would be a good addition. Davidpatrick 04:56, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't remember enough of it to correct the paragraph, but I remember that Lotte Lenya played Jenny in both the original and the Marc Blitzstein musical, and sung Seerauber Jenny as well as Pirate Jenny. 75.111.209.91 23:51, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, on my recording, I have at hand here, it's sung twice, by Polly and by Jenny. Th.Linke ( talk) 14:15, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I added the 1989 recording. - Th.Linke ( talk) 14:51, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I am unclear about the setting being "mildly anachronistic". If the setting is Victorian London, then there is nothing muddled about the reprieve coming from the Queen at the end. (Although you can get very muddled sometimes, as my father put it "I think people who say God Save The Queen are old-fashioned.") PatGallacher ( talk) 17:05, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Hi, sorry about the delay in getting back on this, but there a number of elements which are fundamentally anachronistic. Without getting down to cases, I can only opine that in my mind at the time of writing was how much more the backdrop is ineffably more the London of John Gay than that purported, of Victoriana. Frequently throughout the play these worlds collide. This is not necessarily to the detraction of the play itself, and one senses that this is done deliberately to reinforce the alienation which Brecht was striving for in epic theatre. I can do a case by case analysis if necessary, but tbh you could prove anachronism in more or less any work of fiction by this means. If you need further clarification, I would be more than happy to oblige. Sjc ( talk) 07:07, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
As a footnote I should add that either someone agrees with me or journalistic plagiarism knows no boundaries: [1] Sjc ( talk) 07:30, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Why did you restore the opera categories, Kleinzach? It's not an opera. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 08:13, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I have to wonder if any of those who call for it to be included in the opera category have actually seen Threepenny performed or heard the music. Just using the tertiary sources available to us, it can be argued either way. If we examine all the individual characteristics of the work and compare them to the characteristics of opera and musicals, however, I think it becomes clear that it is not an opera (the use of the word "opera" is satirical, of course...there is a speech just before the last finale in which Peachum mockingly calls the show an opera: "This is an opera, and we mean to do you well..."). Don't bother calling OR; WP:NOR refers to original research in the content of an article.
Anyway, this is sort of a silly debate and takes time away from other pursuits, so I will hold my tongue (fingers?) henceforth. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 19:51, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Alright, I don't agree with its categorization under Category:Operas or any of the other opera categories, but I won't fight the consensus. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 04:03, 11 June 2007 (UTC)