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Archive 1 |
Can we move the Smiths Station reference somewhere else in the article? It seems a bit obscure to put at the very top, even in tiny font. Acegikmo1 18:25, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I'd like to humbly suggest excising or re-wording the "workmanlike rather than inspired" reference to Strangeways. The sentiment is open to debate, and the sentence it's in loses nothing with the phrase removed. ffirehorse 23:09, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
"Pretty Girls Make Graves" was from a line in Kerouac's Dharma Bums not a Hubert Selby Jr..
"Pretty Girls Make Graves" was from a line in Kerouac's Dharma Bums not Hubert Selby Jr..
If I could casually mention: the vague republicanism mentioned in regard to Meat is Murder's Nowhere Fast is hardly that - "the line the poor and the needy are helpless and greedy" is attributed to the Queen seeing as how that quip is followed with "on her terms." Thus he explains just why he'd like to drop his trousers to her. Let me know if there's some other reason... Random Smiths Fan 10/19/05
Does anyone happen to have one that isn't copyright restricted? The current one is fine except for that it's a little small, and the copyright status is probably a bit of a grey area. -- Hn 05:27, May 26, 2005 (UTC)
More so than the Sex Pistols? Or Led Zeppelin? (I know most Smiths fans, including myself, aren't into heavy metal, but LZ and Black Sabbath have been hugely influential on a very large number of rock bands). I've just removed a few of the more over-the-top claims, and I think this also needs to be toned down. The Smiths attract a certain kind of over-dedicated fan, and this article should be encyclopaedic, not a gushing fansite. "Pioneers of indie music" is another dodgy phrase - there's a reasonable case for Buzzcocks having been pioneers five years before the Smiths started, but the Smiths signed to a label which had been putting out indie music for years already. If you're defining "indie" stylistically that's also debatable. -- ajn ( talk) 23:13, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
NME named the Smiths the most influencal band a few years ago.
-- Thischarmingboy 19:35, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
I've changed the introduction.
Also, some work needs to be done on the The Smiths, Morrissey and Johnny Marr articles - there's information in all three articles which would be better-placed in others (e.g. M&M's birth dates, which don't need to be here). -- ajn ( talk) 15:02, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Happy to see the back of the Beatles claim. It was perhaps a little overblown.
I've had a quick look at the Morrissey and Johnny Marr articles and agree that some work needs doing, but I'm uncertain what you mean by the dates of birth not needing to be there. This is a basic convention of an entry for an individual. They do need to be reformatted to fall in line with layout conventions, but they shouldn't be removed. However, if I have misunderstood then please explain. They should not, however be included in the first reference to Morrissey and Johnny Marr on The Smiths page. Valiant Son 16:41, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
The word "indie" was already in use when the Smiths formed, so this is clearly not true. If people are going to insert claims that the Smiths were the first this, or the most important that, they need to provide some sort of reference - this may seem a bit anal, but Wikipedia is intended to be an encyclopaedia, and if you think the Smiths were important, sticking to the quality of information expected in an encyclopaedia is important. If they really have been (incorrectly) cited as the first "indie" group, where and by whom? -- ajn ( talk) 15:27, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to point out that the pink picture of Morrissey next to the passage that says that the Smiths dressed normally onstage amusingly contradicts the text. There's another picture that's in the article for "Shoplifters of the World Unite" that agrees with the text.
--Domukaz
I think that the outfit Morrissey is wearing in the picture in question could not be accurately described as ordinary. Ordinary is a difficult (or impossible) word to define, however I don't believe an outfit is ordinary just because two of the most flamboyantly dressed artists of the new romantic movement would not wear it. I think it would improve the article to either change the photograph or alter the text. - JMJ
Because there has been no further discussion about Morrissey's outfit, I have changed the photo as requested by Domukaz - JMJ
I'm after opinions as to whether a singles gallery would work on the page. It would be quite a few images (16? 17?) but there are some really, really nice covers there and they do sum up the aesthetic qualities of the band quite nicely. Thoughts? I'm prepared to do the legwork if there's no strong objections and we can always get rid of it if it doesn't work I suppose. -- Hn 02:29, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Having listened to the Editors album, I must say there's an undeniable influence there. I think they belong on the "influenced by" list...any objections??? Chris 1127 10:54, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
I am fairly certain that the Smiths did NOT reunite. I believe that was just a rumor. Is there a link to an article proving that they did in fact reunite? -- jc2k6
I think the Wiki should include the compilations made by WEA; i.e. BEST .. (1), BEST .. (2) and The Very Best of The Smiths.
I too was surprised that these were not included in the discography. Were they released against the wishes of the band members? If so, that in itself would not preclude them surely? Vans74 11:40, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
There's more than enough groups there already. Put it on the band's page, sure, but I think it's safe to say The Smiths' influence is pretty wide-reaching, and a list of every band they've ever influenced would be almost as long as the article itself! If there's a significant reason to add a group, do so but please leave some justification for their addition here. Thanks. -- Hn 10:11, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Panic! and MCR ought to be there, as of Morrissey's lyrics influence on the emo music culture. LiAm McShAnE 17:13, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Can we just limit the list to bands that have publicly named The Smiths as an influence? With certain bands it's impossible to contain how influential they are. For instance, I think it's fair to say that every single Anglo-American rock band after around 1968 is influenced by The Beatles, whether they like it or not, simply because of their ubiquity and their untold influence on other bands that are also "influential." Since I've seen more than one source claim that The Smiths "invented" indie rock it seems absurd to create an authoritative list of bands influenced by them without limiting it somehow. -- Tothebarricades 06:35, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I think its inappropriate to call The Smiths a "rock group". Their music is undeniably "pop" music. This is in no way an insult to the band. I think in today's age of manufactured, bland commercial pop, pop has become a dirty word, and aspiring to make pop music something to be ashamed of. What was so great about the Smiths was their desire to make great, intelligent and meaningful pop music. In the context of the 1980s, they were a pop group making brilliant pop music. 213.121.151.142 19:48, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I think Liam McShane has no fucking clue what he's talking about, as evidenced above, and both "pop" and "rock" have highly subjective definitions. "Pop" can be the antithesis of both capital-C "Classical" and anything that isn't produced simply to reach a huge audience and make money a la contemporary billboard charts. I must ask you what you base your distinction of rock and pop on, because I can't think of any, considering you still hold the possibility of non-corportate pop. It's guitars bass and drums, it's a few guys from Manchester making what they know how to make on (until the end) Rough Trade Records, so what's your case against their status as a rock band? -- Tothebarricades 06:43, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
James Maker (who went on to join Raymonde and RPLA) was a fifth "member" of the band. Granted, he lasted two weeks (as I understand things) but I feel he should have a mention. He was a "go-go" dancer and made his first appearence at The Smiths' first gig at the Ritz in Manchester. He was dropped as the rest of band decided this wasn't the image they wanted to portray. tenfourzero 11:34, 03 May 2006 (UTC)
According to his obituary in The Times, Scott Piering managed The Smiths for 3 albums. If this is true, and as Piering now has an article, you might want to mention it/link to him. -- kingboyk 14:44, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I moved this here from the article page:
This could also be a reference to Dave and Maureen Smith (Maureen was Myra Hindley's sister), who both feature heavily in Emlyn Williams's indepth book about the Moors Murders, " Beyond Belief". It is clear that Morrissey was influenced by this book as evinced by the song " Suffer Little Children", and it is well known that Morrissey was and is fascinated by these tragic and most awful murders.
Unless we can be provided with some strong verifiable citation confirming that, out of the millions of Smiths in the world, this one (the married name of a Moors Murderer's sister) was the one the group had in mind, I think this has to stay out of the main article. " Suffer Little Children" is already mentioned in the article, so really this content is only adding the claim about the band's name, plus somewhat superfluously plugging a book (it seems to me).-- DaveG12345 19:38, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Indie pop & Indie rock are both subgenres of Alternative, I don't think we also need to specify that The Smiths are an Alternative band. Both of the previously mentioned genres more than imply that. There are other bands of this era that identify with & exemplify the Alternative genre more than The Smiths did, therefore I see no need to point out a broader genre that doesn't really narrow down their music nearly as well as Indie pop & Indie rock, which do a fine job explaining their influence - when Post-punk & Alternative shifted into Indie pop. User: Anthonylombardi
How do you call The Cure new wave and then say The Smiths aren't? -- Banzairun ( talk) 07:49, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
Well....... The Smiths are like post punk or alternative rock ( my opinion new wave or pop rock) I tried to put it in once that they were new wave and i guess someone has taken it down that didn't agree. Come on put alternative pop or New wave more likely thats like the easiest genre placing for the smiths.......indie pop......ok. Was not thinking about that , I was thinking new wave all the way when I first heard them , you know the cure and .........um the talking heads, and stuff compare the sounds take your opinion . I don't know mabey im not right . - Ryusho2
The Smiths are widely recognized to have had a major influence on the Britpop movement, which is not purely "feelgood" music. Regardless of whether one considers The Libertines to be Britpop, they have certainly been influenced by The Smiths. Members of The Libertines often declare as much, notable music reviews often claim this to be the case, and a discerning ear can hear it to be true. Dunne409 08:04, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
That timeline is worthless. Dear god. rvilbig
in the singles section, it's not mentioned how the smiths released " the headmaster ritual" from "meat is murder" as a 12"single in germany. also released as a 12"single on orange vinyl was "some girls are bigger than others" , from the "queen is dead".also in germany. Wampazz 20:05, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
The use of images not in compliance with our fair-use criteria or our policy on nonfree content is not appropriate, and the images have been removed. Please do not restore them. -- Merope 18:28, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
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Is that really appropriate for an encyclopedia? Maybe it's just me, but I find it a bit fansite-ish. Anyone else? faithless (speak) 23:51, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I started the article The Smiths – Cover artwork some weeks ago. This article described the records' motifs. It was deleted by Majorly. There was no deletion request and no information on my discussion page as author. Please see the Deletion review. Thank you. -- Simplicius 15:36, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
It would make a lot more sense to replace the 'Shoplifters' live pic with a 'Strangeways' cover. And also the autographed poster is too similar to the first album cover and I think it's unnecessary. It seems a previous 'Strangeways' pic was deleted, but presumably a pic could be uploaded and used under fair use. SteveRamone 01:15, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
What prevents me from trying this myself is the fact that I don't have access to books about the subject. What do people think? There are many, many online resources, but not having the books is kinda outwith the Alt Rock WikiProject's standard.-- h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 00:45, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Weren't The Smiths from Stretford/ Salford, both in Greater Manchester, not the City of Manchester? -- Jza84 · ( talk) 16:39, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Marr was from Wythenshawe in the south of the City of Manc, Morrissey from just over the City of M/Stretford border. Stretford doesn't have such a distinct identity as Salford. (Having said that I await having my head bitten off by an aggreived Traffordian!) almost- instinct 11:40, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Pardon my ignorance...
OK, just found this link about how they met in a clothes shop
http://reelaroundmanchester.tripod.com/id1.html
Is this true? Anyone know more?
It's quite a crucial historical moment in music that is lacking in this article... 92.6.195.171 ( talk) 01:06, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Here's a different account of events http://uk.geocities.com/tania_bunbury/biography.html Macphysto ( talk) 17:01, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
From The Smiths: Songs That Saved Your Life by Simon Goddard, p.13:
Thus in May 1982, chaperoned by Pomfret himself as a safeguard intermediary, John Martin Maher of Wythenshawe took a bus to King's Road, Stretford, where he knocked on the door of number 384. And, in a direct re-enactment of Jerry Leiber's doorstepping of Mike Stoller, forcibly introduced himself to Steven Patrick Morrissey.
Hope that helps! King's Road goes from Upper Chorlton Road in Whalley Range, round the north side of Longford Park, to the Stretford Tram station on Edge Lane, so only just into Trafford almost- instinct 11:23, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Can't help thinking there should be a way, within the infobox, of distinguishing the "classic" line-up of the band (Morrissey, Marr, Rourke, Joyce) from the other members who were in the group fleetingly - when people refer to the Smiths they're not usually including Dale Hibbert in that. I tried to do this by putting the main four under "current members" and the others under "former members" as per the Beatles article, but this is wrong apparently. MFlet1 ( talk) 12:36, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
JD, please see [ [1]] the Smiths homepage. Steven Morrissey is the name used. Please stop you frivolous revert warring. That is his legal name, Steven Patrick Morrissey. 'Morrissey' is a stagename and the name of his current group.-- Fahrenheit451 ( talk) 06:16, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
just because in america people refer to some stuff like paisley uunderground like "jangle pop", you cant translate that to smiths as "indie pop" , their early sound, sure influenced lots of bands, but they are not indie pop in anyway. at least "indie rock", and even that on the british terms what that mean (nothing to do with little fame , obviously) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.73.162.246 ( talk) 12:10, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Not indie pop...I'm removing it... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.215.188.23 ( talk) 10:05, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
But...Indie pop came after jangle pop, yes? Am I wrong? Indie pop was derived from Jangle? The Smiths should be classified as jangle pop instead of indie? What definition are we using the uk one or the american one? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.215.188.23 ( talk) 11:22, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
On the indie pop page, it says that indie pop was derived from bands like the smiths... it didn't say they were indie pop... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.215.188.23 ( talk) 18:41, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
I don't see why Jangle pop can't be included in the genre list in light of Alternative rock being already listed, because Indie pop is also a sub-genre of Alternative rock. The Smiths are well known as pioneers in the genre of Jangle pop. It's even mentioned in the article. For a relatively underground genre, The Smiths are one of its biggest and most successful examples. Is there an identifiable wikipedia policy that favors listing all music by genres that are as generic as possible? Thorburn ( talk) 02:22, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
Just because jangle pop was primarily an American phenomenon doesn't mean other bands can't be considered as part of the style. Unlike genres such as britpop and krautrock, there's no geographical limitations referring to jangle pop. The Church can also be considered as jangle pop, and I think it's becoming more commonplace to accept The Smiths' music as jangle pop too. -- 190.157.154.245 ( talk) 19:35, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
This has already been decided, if you read above. There is no reason to change it to indie rock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.186.241.105 ( talk) 02:08, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Anyone care to upload the image for their self-titled album? Appears to have been deleted Titan50 ( talk) 21:33, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to remove - or greatly condense and reposition - the Chloe Veltman quotations that end the article. They express an odd, highly opinionated view by a non-noteworthy writer that Morrissey's cultural influence is limited to The Smiths. Their positioning gives them the added emphasis of appearing to be a conclusion. Alistair Stevenson ( talk) 02:20, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
should probably only include morrisey and johnny marr, as the others were paid 'a wage'like session musician and morrisey even expressed that 'theres only 2 members in the smiths', himself and marr 90.199.157.143 ( talk) 16:27, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
There is a sentence following this [3] saying, "Relations between Joyce and Rourke cooled significantly as a result of Morrissey's statement which claimed that Joyce had misled the courts. Morrissey claimed that Joyce had not declared that Rourke was entitled to some of the assets seized by Joyce's lawyers from Morrissey."
I've got two questions:
1. What does that mean exactly?
2. Where's the proof?
Unless I'm mistaken that sentence is supposed to mean that relations between Joyce and Rourke became sour as a result of Morrissey's statement. However, the two of them went on to document their experience in The Smiths in a DVD called Inside the Smiths, which I have. And the two of them seemed pretty tight.
Or am I missing something here? Shaneymike ( talk) 21:10, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
I came here to post the same thing Shaneymike said. The sentence is incredibly arbitrary and upon glance makes no sense at all. I would edit it to fix this, but I have no idea what it's supposed to mean. Broden ( talk) 09:28, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure that a lot of the songs listed in the Videos section did not have promotional videos. I don't think they started doing promo videos until (from memory) the third album, although there were some recordings for TV programmes. So where do all these in the list come from? -- Michig ( talk) 19:37, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
The "repackaging" criticism seems rather tendentious. For example: Hatful of Hollow is adduced as an example...yet there are no recordings in common between it and the first album. The songs in common are completely different recordings. That's not "repackaging." It was quite common in those days for singles to be different mixes, even different recordings, from album versions (more in Britain - but in the US, the single of R.E.M.'s "Radio Free Europe" is different recording from the Murmur version). 2fs ( talk) 02:33, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
The adjective ‘Strident’ is used in two consecutive paragraphs. 203.38.100.131 ( talk) 00:45, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
The Smiths are a notable jangle pop band, perhaps the most notable to ever exist, so can I garner some support to add it to the genre list? I would personally like to see it replace alternative rock. Lachlan Foley ( talk) 19:36, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Made the following addition to the Visual Imagery section: "Their relatively plain way of dressing is on full display in the recently published photography of Nalinee Darmrong, who followed and photographed The Smiths for substantial portions of their touring schedule during the summers of 1985 and 1986."
The addition was subsequently removed as a violation of the external link policy, but I'm not sure what part of the policy it violated. I linked to a gallery of newly collected Smiths photos that were taken in 1985 and '86 but kept private by the photographer until just few months ago when they were published in a book and displayed in an art gallery in Washington, DC.
These previously unavailable photos of the band at the height of their fame capture a significant time in Smiths history, so I thought they'd be a welcome addition. I read the external link policy before I contributed, and this seemed like a case where I had a relevant resource (the photos) that could not be brought onto the page because of copyright, and that it would therefore be OK to link to them. My questions are 1) have I misinterpreted the policy? and 2) is there an acceptable way that I can add this resource to The Smiths' entry?
I have no affiliation with DCist or the photographer in question, so there's no conflict of interest here, and this is not an attempt at advertising or promotion.
Here's a link to the edit in question: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=The_Smiths&oldid=731545114
Mrjoethurston ( talk) 16:01, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
OK, that makes sense. Thanks for your answer! Mrjoethurston ( talk) 23:37, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
All through the text, The has been placed with lower case "the". This is incorrect. "The" is part of the band name and should be capitalized.
Daniel Burke (DLPB) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.151.22.158 ( talk) 21:13, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
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Either the band's core line-up (Morrissey/Marr/Joyce/Rourke) should be listed here, or all other minor/temporary members should be included (as outlined in the Members section of the article). While Gannon's contributions to the band are probably somewhat more notable than other temporary members, I don't think they are notable enough to be listed here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimmio78 ( talk • contribs) 10:14, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
The band name - is it in reference to the British government's database identifier tag for individuals, rather than using the terms subject or citizen? - Inowen ( nlfte) 07:11, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Can we move the Smiths Station reference somewhere else in the article? It seems a bit obscure to put at the very top, even in tiny font. Acegikmo1 18:25, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I'd like to humbly suggest excising or re-wording the "workmanlike rather than inspired" reference to Strangeways. The sentiment is open to debate, and the sentence it's in loses nothing with the phrase removed. ffirehorse 23:09, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
"Pretty Girls Make Graves" was from a line in Kerouac's Dharma Bums not a Hubert Selby Jr..
"Pretty Girls Make Graves" was from a line in Kerouac's Dharma Bums not Hubert Selby Jr..
If I could casually mention: the vague republicanism mentioned in regard to Meat is Murder's Nowhere Fast is hardly that - "the line the poor and the needy are helpless and greedy" is attributed to the Queen seeing as how that quip is followed with "on her terms." Thus he explains just why he'd like to drop his trousers to her. Let me know if there's some other reason... Random Smiths Fan 10/19/05
Does anyone happen to have one that isn't copyright restricted? The current one is fine except for that it's a little small, and the copyright status is probably a bit of a grey area. -- Hn 05:27, May 26, 2005 (UTC)
More so than the Sex Pistols? Or Led Zeppelin? (I know most Smiths fans, including myself, aren't into heavy metal, but LZ and Black Sabbath have been hugely influential on a very large number of rock bands). I've just removed a few of the more over-the-top claims, and I think this also needs to be toned down. The Smiths attract a certain kind of over-dedicated fan, and this article should be encyclopaedic, not a gushing fansite. "Pioneers of indie music" is another dodgy phrase - there's a reasonable case for Buzzcocks having been pioneers five years before the Smiths started, but the Smiths signed to a label which had been putting out indie music for years already. If you're defining "indie" stylistically that's also debatable. -- ajn ( talk) 23:13, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
NME named the Smiths the most influencal band a few years ago.
-- Thischarmingboy 19:35, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
I've changed the introduction.
Also, some work needs to be done on the The Smiths, Morrissey and Johnny Marr articles - there's information in all three articles which would be better-placed in others (e.g. M&M's birth dates, which don't need to be here). -- ajn ( talk) 15:02, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Happy to see the back of the Beatles claim. It was perhaps a little overblown.
I've had a quick look at the Morrissey and Johnny Marr articles and agree that some work needs doing, but I'm uncertain what you mean by the dates of birth not needing to be there. This is a basic convention of an entry for an individual. They do need to be reformatted to fall in line with layout conventions, but they shouldn't be removed. However, if I have misunderstood then please explain. They should not, however be included in the first reference to Morrissey and Johnny Marr on The Smiths page. Valiant Son 16:41, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
The word "indie" was already in use when the Smiths formed, so this is clearly not true. If people are going to insert claims that the Smiths were the first this, or the most important that, they need to provide some sort of reference - this may seem a bit anal, but Wikipedia is intended to be an encyclopaedia, and if you think the Smiths were important, sticking to the quality of information expected in an encyclopaedia is important. If they really have been (incorrectly) cited as the first "indie" group, where and by whom? -- ajn ( talk) 15:27, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to point out that the pink picture of Morrissey next to the passage that says that the Smiths dressed normally onstage amusingly contradicts the text. There's another picture that's in the article for "Shoplifters of the World Unite" that agrees with the text.
--Domukaz
I think that the outfit Morrissey is wearing in the picture in question could not be accurately described as ordinary. Ordinary is a difficult (or impossible) word to define, however I don't believe an outfit is ordinary just because two of the most flamboyantly dressed artists of the new romantic movement would not wear it. I think it would improve the article to either change the photograph or alter the text. - JMJ
Because there has been no further discussion about Morrissey's outfit, I have changed the photo as requested by Domukaz - JMJ
I'm after opinions as to whether a singles gallery would work on the page. It would be quite a few images (16? 17?) but there are some really, really nice covers there and they do sum up the aesthetic qualities of the band quite nicely. Thoughts? I'm prepared to do the legwork if there's no strong objections and we can always get rid of it if it doesn't work I suppose. -- Hn 02:29, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Having listened to the Editors album, I must say there's an undeniable influence there. I think they belong on the "influenced by" list...any objections??? Chris 1127 10:54, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
I am fairly certain that the Smiths did NOT reunite. I believe that was just a rumor. Is there a link to an article proving that they did in fact reunite? -- jc2k6
I think the Wiki should include the compilations made by WEA; i.e. BEST .. (1), BEST .. (2) and The Very Best of The Smiths.
I too was surprised that these were not included in the discography. Were they released against the wishes of the band members? If so, that in itself would not preclude them surely? Vans74 11:40, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
There's more than enough groups there already. Put it on the band's page, sure, but I think it's safe to say The Smiths' influence is pretty wide-reaching, and a list of every band they've ever influenced would be almost as long as the article itself! If there's a significant reason to add a group, do so but please leave some justification for their addition here. Thanks. -- Hn 10:11, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Panic! and MCR ought to be there, as of Morrissey's lyrics influence on the emo music culture. LiAm McShAnE 17:13, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Can we just limit the list to bands that have publicly named The Smiths as an influence? With certain bands it's impossible to contain how influential they are. For instance, I think it's fair to say that every single Anglo-American rock band after around 1968 is influenced by The Beatles, whether they like it or not, simply because of their ubiquity and their untold influence on other bands that are also "influential." Since I've seen more than one source claim that The Smiths "invented" indie rock it seems absurd to create an authoritative list of bands influenced by them without limiting it somehow. -- Tothebarricades 06:35, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I think its inappropriate to call The Smiths a "rock group". Their music is undeniably "pop" music. This is in no way an insult to the band. I think in today's age of manufactured, bland commercial pop, pop has become a dirty word, and aspiring to make pop music something to be ashamed of. What was so great about the Smiths was their desire to make great, intelligent and meaningful pop music. In the context of the 1980s, they were a pop group making brilliant pop music. 213.121.151.142 19:48, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I think Liam McShane has no fucking clue what he's talking about, as evidenced above, and both "pop" and "rock" have highly subjective definitions. "Pop" can be the antithesis of both capital-C "Classical" and anything that isn't produced simply to reach a huge audience and make money a la contemporary billboard charts. I must ask you what you base your distinction of rock and pop on, because I can't think of any, considering you still hold the possibility of non-corportate pop. It's guitars bass and drums, it's a few guys from Manchester making what they know how to make on (until the end) Rough Trade Records, so what's your case against their status as a rock band? -- Tothebarricades 06:43, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
James Maker (who went on to join Raymonde and RPLA) was a fifth "member" of the band. Granted, he lasted two weeks (as I understand things) but I feel he should have a mention. He was a "go-go" dancer and made his first appearence at The Smiths' first gig at the Ritz in Manchester. He was dropped as the rest of band decided this wasn't the image they wanted to portray. tenfourzero 11:34, 03 May 2006 (UTC)
According to his obituary in The Times, Scott Piering managed The Smiths for 3 albums. If this is true, and as Piering now has an article, you might want to mention it/link to him. -- kingboyk 14:44, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I moved this here from the article page:
This could also be a reference to Dave and Maureen Smith (Maureen was Myra Hindley's sister), who both feature heavily in Emlyn Williams's indepth book about the Moors Murders, " Beyond Belief". It is clear that Morrissey was influenced by this book as evinced by the song " Suffer Little Children", and it is well known that Morrissey was and is fascinated by these tragic and most awful murders.
Unless we can be provided with some strong verifiable citation confirming that, out of the millions of Smiths in the world, this one (the married name of a Moors Murderer's sister) was the one the group had in mind, I think this has to stay out of the main article. " Suffer Little Children" is already mentioned in the article, so really this content is only adding the claim about the band's name, plus somewhat superfluously plugging a book (it seems to me).-- DaveG12345 19:38, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Indie pop & Indie rock are both subgenres of Alternative, I don't think we also need to specify that The Smiths are an Alternative band. Both of the previously mentioned genres more than imply that. There are other bands of this era that identify with & exemplify the Alternative genre more than The Smiths did, therefore I see no need to point out a broader genre that doesn't really narrow down their music nearly as well as Indie pop & Indie rock, which do a fine job explaining their influence - when Post-punk & Alternative shifted into Indie pop. User: Anthonylombardi
How do you call The Cure new wave and then say The Smiths aren't? -- Banzairun ( talk) 07:49, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
Well....... The Smiths are like post punk or alternative rock ( my opinion new wave or pop rock) I tried to put it in once that they were new wave and i guess someone has taken it down that didn't agree. Come on put alternative pop or New wave more likely thats like the easiest genre placing for the smiths.......indie pop......ok. Was not thinking about that , I was thinking new wave all the way when I first heard them , you know the cure and .........um the talking heads, and stuff compare the sounds take your opinion . I don't know mabey im not right . - Ryusho2
The Smiths are widely recognized to have had a major influence on the Britpop movement, which is not purely "feelgood" music. Regardless of whether one considers The Libertines to be Britpop, they have certainly been influenced by The Smiths. Members of The Libertines often declare as much, notable music reviews often claim this to be the case, and a discerning ear can hear it to be true. Dunne409 08:04, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
That timeline is worthless. Dear god. rvilbig
in the singles section, it's not mentioned how the smiths released " the headmaster ritual" from "meat is murder" as a 12"single in germany. also released as a 12"single on orange vinyl was "some girls are bigger than others" , from the "queen is dead".also in germany. Wampazz 20:05, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
The use of images not in compliance with our fair-use criteria or our policy on nonfree content is not appropriate, and the images have been removed. Please do not restore them. -- Merope 18:28, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
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Is that really appropriate for an encyclopedia? Maybe it's just me, but I find it a bit fansite-ish. Anyone else? faithless (speak) 23:51, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I started the article The Smiths – Cover artwork some weeks ago. This article described the records' motifs. It was deleted by Majorly. There was no deletion request and no information on my discussion page as author. Please see the Deletion review. Thank you. -- Simplicius 15:36, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
It would make a lot more sense to replace the 'Shoplifters' live pic with a 'Strangeways' cover. And also the autographed poster is too similar to the first album cover and I think it's unnecessary. It seems a previous 'Strangeways' pic was deleted, but presumably a pic could be uploaded and used under fair use. SteveRamone 01:15, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
What prevents me from trying this myself is the fact that I don't have access to books about the subject. What do people think? There are many, many online resources, but not having the books is kinda outwith the Alt Rock WikiProject's standard.-- h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 00:45, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Weren't The Smiths from Stretford/ Salford, both in Greater Manchester, not the City of Manchester? -- Jza84 · ( talk) 16:39, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Marr was from Wythenshawe in the south of the City of Manc, Morrissey from just over the City of M/Stretford border. Stretford doesn't have such a distinct identity as Salford. (Having said that I await having my head bitten off by an aggreived Traffordian!) almost- instinct 11:40, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Pardon my ignorance...
OK, just found this link about how they met in a clothes shop
http://reelaroundmanchester.tripod.com/id1.html
Is this true? Anyone know more?
It's quite a crucial historical moment in music that is lacking in this article... 92.6.195.171 ( talk) 01:06, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Here's a different account of events http://uk.geocities.com/tania_bunbury/biography.html Macphysto ( talk) 17:01, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
From The Smiths: Songs That Saved Your Life by Simon Goddard, p.13:
Thus in May 1982, chaperoned by Pomfret himself as a safeguard intermediary, John Martin Maher of Wythenshawe took a bus to King's Road, Stretford, where he knocked on the door of number 384. And, in a direct re-enactment of Jerry Leiber's doorstepping of Mike Stoller, forcibly introduced himself to Steven Patrick Morrissey.
Hope that helps! King's Road goes from Upper Chorlton Road in Whalley Range, round the north side of Longford Park, to the Stretford Tram station on Edge Lane, so only just into Trafford almost- instinct 11:23, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Can't help thinking there should be a way, within the infobox, of distinguishing the "classic" line-up of the band (Morrissey, Marr, Rourke, Joyce) from the other members who were in the group fleetingly - when people refer to the Smiths they're not usually including Dale Hibbert in that. I tried to do this by putting the main four under "current members" and the others under "former members" as per the Beatles article, but this is wrong apparently. MFlet1 ( talk) 12:36, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
JD, please see [ [1]] the Smiths homepage. Steven Morrissey is the name used. Please stop you frivolous revert warring. That is his legal name, Steven Patrick Morrissey. 'Morrissey' is a stagename and the name of his current group.-- Fahrenheit451 ( talk) 06:16, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
just because in america people refer to some stuff like paisley uunderground like "jangle pop", you cant translate that to smiths as "indie pop" , their early sound, sure influenced lots of bands, but they are not indie pop in anyway. at least "indie rock", and even that on the british terms what that mean (nothing to do with little fame , obviously) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.73.162.246 ( talk) 12:10, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Not indie pop...I'm removing it... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.215.188.23 ( talk) 10:05, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
But...Indie pop came after jangle pop, yes? Am I wrong? Indie pop was derived from Jangle? The Smiths should be classified as jangle pop instead of indie? What definition are we using the uk one or the american one? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.215.188.23 ( talk) 11:22, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
On the indie pop page, it says that indie pop was derived from bands like the smiths... it didn't say they were indie pop... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.215.188.23 ( talk) 18:41, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
I don't see why Jangle pop can't be included in the genre list in light of Alternative rock being already listed, because Indie pop is also a sub-genre of Alternative rock. The Smiths are well known as pioneers in the genre of Jangle pop. It's even mentioned in the article. For a relatively underground genre, The Smiths are one of its biggest and most successful examples. Is there an identifiable wikipedia policy that favors listing all music by genres that are as generic as possible? Thorburn ( talk) 02:22, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
Just because jangle pop was primarily an American phenomenon doesn't mean other bands can't be considered as part of the style. Unlike genres such as britpop and krautrock, there's no geographical limitations referring to jangle pop. The Church can also be considered as jangle pop, and I think it's becoming more commonplace to accept The Smiths' music as jangle pop too. -- 190.157.154.245 ( talk) 19:35, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
This has already been decided, if you read above. There is no reason to change it to indie rock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.186.241.105 ( talk) 02:08, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Anyone care to upload the image for their self-titled album? Appears to have been deleted Titan50 ( talk) 21:33, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to remove - or greatly condense and reposition - the Chloe Veltman quotations that end the article. They express an odd, highly opinionated view by a non-noteworthy writer that Morrissey's cultural influence is limited to The Smiths. Their positioning gives them the added emphasis of appearing to be a conclusion. Alistair Stevenson ( talk) 02:20, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
should probably only include morrisey and johnny marr, as the others were paid 'a wage'like session musician and morrisey even expressed that 'theres only 2 members in the smiths', himself and marr 90.199.157.143 ( talk) 16:27, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
There is a sentence following this [3] saying, "Relations between Joyce and Rourke cooled significantly as a result of Morrissey's statement which claimed that Joyce had misled the courts. Morrissey claimed that Joyce had not declared that Rourke was entitled to some of the assets seized by Joyce's lawyers from Morrissey."
I've got two questions:
1. What does that mean exactly?
2. Where's the proof?
Unless I'm mistaken that sentence is supposed to mean that relations between Joyce and Rourke became sour as a result of Morrissey's statement. However, the two of them went on to document their experience in The Smiths in a DVD called Inside the Smiths, which I have. And the two of them seemed pretty tight.
Or am I missing something here? Shaneymike ( talk) 21:10, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
I came here to post the same thing Shaneymike said. The sentence is incredibly arbitrary and upon glance makes no sense at all. I would edit it to fix this, but I have no idea what it's supposed to mean. Broden ( talk) 09:28, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure that a lot of the songs listed in the Videos section did not have promotional videos. I don't think they started doing promo videos until (from memory) the third album, although there were some recordings for TV programmes. So where do all these in the list come from? -- Michig ( talk) 19:37, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
The "repackaging" criticism seems rather tendentious. For example: Hatful of Hollow is adduced as an example...yet there are no recordings in common between it and the first album. The songs in common are completely different recordings. That's not "repackaging." It was quite common in those days for singles to be different mixes, even different recordings, from album versions (more in Britain - but in the US, the single of R.E.M.'s "Radio Free Europe" is different recording from the Murmur version). 2fs ( talk) 02:33, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
The adjective ‘Strident’ is used in two consecutive paragraphs. 203.38.100.131 ( talk) 00:45, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
The Smiths are a notable jangle pop band, perhaps the most notable to ever exist, so can I garner some support to add it to the genre list? I would personally like to see it replace alternative rock. Lachlan Foley ( talk) 19:36, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Made the following addition to the Visual Imagery section: "Their relatively plain way of dressing is on full display in the recently published photography of Nalinee Darmrong, who followed and photographed The Smiths for substantial portions of their touring schedule during the summers of 1985 and 1986."
The addition was subsequently removed as a violation of the external link policy, but I'm not sure what part of the policy it violated. I linked to a gallery of newly collected Smiths photos that were taken in 1985 and '86 but kept private by the photographer until just few months ago when they were published in a book and displayed in an art gallery in Washington, DC.
These previously unavailable photos of the band at the height of their fame capture a significant time in Smiths history, so I thought they'd be a welcome addition. I read the external link policy before I contributed, and this seemed like a case where I had a relevant resource (the photos) that could not be brought onto the page because of copyright, and that it would therefore be OK to link to them. My questions are 1) have I misinterpreted the policy? and 2) is there an acceptable way that I can add this resource to The Smiths' entry?
I have no affiliation with DCist or the photographer in question, so there's no conflict of interest here, and this is not an attempt at advertising or promotion.
Here's a link to the edit in question: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=The_Smiths&oldid=731545114
Mrjoethurston ( talk) 16:01, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
OK, that makes sense. Thanks for your answer! Mrjoethurston ( talk) 23:37, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
All through the text, The has been placed with lower case "the". This is incorrect. "The" is part of the band name and should be capitalized.
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Either the band's core line-up (Morrissey/Marr/Joyce/Rourke) should be listed here, or all other minor/temporary members should be included (as outlined in the Members section of the article). While Gannon's contributions to the band are probably somewhat more notable than other temporary members, I don't think they are notable enough to be listed here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimmio78 ( talk • contribs) 10:14, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
The band name - is it in reference to the British government's database identifier tag for individuals, rather than using the terms subject or citizen? - Inowen ( nlfte) 07:11, 25 August 2018 (UTC)