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Can anyone provide references for the material cited? Dystopos 15:34, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
Factual dispute: Tolkien (in an essay on the Languages of Middle-earth) describes The Shire as having an area of 18,000 square miles (more than the size of Yorkshire). A triangular area 100 x 50 miles would have an area of around 2500 square miles, leaving a lot of territory unaccounted for. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.92.67.66 ( talk • contribs) 18:36 4 June 2003 (UTC)
It's not so much a question of accuracy or inaccuracy (though there are some details in your map that don't accord with the evidence of Tolkien's books). The problem is that maps like yours are speculation: they go beyond what Tolkien has provided. The odds are minimal that your map (or any map drawn after the fact) would agree with what Tolkien would have drawn, and therefore it does not constitute reasonable evidence in a discussion (say) of the "true" area of the Shire.
Speculation is not always bad, but it's hard to do well. (Karen Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-Earth for example has a bad track record, with many details that contradict the evidence of the books.) What we should be posting in Wikipedia is information backed by Tolkien's books, not information invented because, for example, it would be nice to have a map. Anyone can draw a map, and any two of these are not likely to agree. Who's to say which is "right"? Elphion 18:10, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Image:Bagendwide.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot 23:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Image:Shirewide.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot 15:49, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
The last edit claims that Smeagol and Deagol are brothers. It is well known that they were related, but as far as I can tell from other scources, they are cousins. Could someone please verify this? Hobbes543 17:37, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Why did I get redirected to this page when I looked up "scary"?
Can anyone provide actual citations placing Gamwich and Cotton in the Southfarthing? Or for Longbottom being founded by Toby Hornblower and not existing earlier (as seems reasonably clear from the wording of the Prologue)? Or for the Southfarthing being "rural and fertile" (a reasonable inference but not stated anywhere that I can find)? Thanks Elphion 16:48, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Hearing none, I removed these references. Elphion 02:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
There are images included from this person. A quick glance in English Google shows no references to their art. The images appear to come from a Czech fan Website, where the copyright legitimacy cannot be established. Without any apparent legal connection to the books or films, and apparently fan art, these don't belong in Wiki. They are removed.
24.130.9.210 ( talk) 05:11, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Why is Iceland mentioned in the section about farthings, and, more importantly, why is there a map of Iceland? It's irrelevant, let's get rid of it. Ingridjames ( talk) 05:07, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Where does this information come from? The "References?" query above might refer to the same issue. I have read most of the JRRT books and none of this is familiar to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mtpaley ( talk • contribs) 21:57, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
Following some of the links I find that at least some of them go to computer games, E.G. The historic Battle of Greenfields is a link to " http://www.ea.com/lotr-the-battle-for-middle-earth-2". I know that the history of fantasy universes is always a tricky area but surely in the case of Middle-Earth the only definitive source can be the works of JRR Tolkein. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mtpaley ( talk • contribs) 22:06, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
Give me a good reason why I should not delete the entire section. Mtpaley ( talk) 22:08, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
The material being added to Westfarthing goes into detail we don't need to add; and much of it is not really about the Shire but about Bilbo. -- Elphion ( talk) 00:50, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
The prohibition that no man could enter the Shire is mentioned at least three different times in this article. That's unnecessary. -- Lecen ( talk) 19:43, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
... but can 'women and children' travel there? Such terminology does matter in Middle Earth. 80.254.147.68 ( talk) 15:10, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi guys, in case you want to use one or two pictures from this set, I'd be happy to accommodate you: http://www.philipp-guenther.com/?page_id=131. Just shoot me an email to photoblog[at]philipp-guenther.com. 88.67.59.14 ( talk) 18:30, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
Just a suggestion for the existing pictures of Hobbiton, could someone please re-look at the captions - particularly the second one. I just feel that a person who does not bother reading the article might be misled by the existing picture captions and take it literally that the Shire was located in New Zealand! Lord Gorthol ( talk) 18:07, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
The Shire is, of course, not simply "identical" to the West Midlands. The region in a more remote past, as Mercia, serves at the same time as a model for the Mark of the Rohirrim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.108.229.89 ( talk) 21:32, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
Many thanks! Lord Gorthol ( talk) 08:02, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
Will some one please explain why the absence of any explanation of how Bucklebury Ferry was propelled or steered is not worthy of comment? This has puzzled me for years. If it was driven by the current (travelling diagonally across the Brandywine) then it could only have gone in one direction and would have had to be punted or rowed in the other. Also it could only have reached the opposite landing stage if guided by some chain or rope (none is mentioned). It certainly cannot have been "by magic" because Hobbits never used magic. I think that absence of explanation is a valid comment - far more so that any "do balrogs have wings?" nonsense. 141.241.26.21 ( talk) 10:56, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
Can anyone support the description of Bag End's land as "anonymous"? I propose to remove this description.
I also propose to re-insert the links to hobbit and Middle-earth, for users who arrive on the page in the Bag End section.
In my view the article on Bag End should be about Bag End. To me the information about Daddy Twofoot should be removed: it says nothing about Bag End, and belongs in the article on Bagshot Row, where it can be found.
BTW I thank the person who improved the introduction to the Bag End article in recent days. It improved the introduction I had inserted only a few days previously, to give a brief overview, including its relationships to the books its links to some of the most famous characters of Middle-earth: Bilbo, Frodo and Sam, not to mention Middle-earth itself. Regards 111.220.250.59 ( talk) 12:47, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
Sorry that should be Bag End's lane. 111.220.250.59 ( talk) 13:07, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
I would like to suggest that the localities of the Shire (Northfarthing, Stock, etc.) be transferred to a new separate article: (List of) Shire places. This would simplify the current article, to the benefit of users of Wikipedia, and enable it to concentrate on Shire-wide matters: an issue raised in above comments. Cheers 111.220.207.15 ( talk) 10:50, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
As an alternative, perhaps separate articles for the key locations of Bag End and/or Hobbiton? Bag End's notable guests should be included (e.g. Gandalf, Thorin, Saruman), and Hobbiton should have a reference to the Hobbiton Movie Set. 111.220.238.98 ( talk) 06:57, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Round Green Door. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Hog Farm ( talk) 04:55, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
This article is too long. It gives details not needed to even have a deep understanding of the Shire. On the other hand, this article is far shorter than the truly out of control article on Gondor. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 21:07, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place as to whether the redirect Afterlithe should be deleted, kept, or retargeted. It will be discussed at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 March 23#Afterlithe until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines. Hog Farm ( talk) 02:33, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
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A discussion is taking place as to whether the redirect Forelithe should be deleted, kept, or retargeted. It will be discussed at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 March 23#Forelithe until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines. Hog Farm ( talk) 02:47, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Eastmarch. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 08:28, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Can anyone provide references for the material cited? Dystopos 15:34, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
Factual dispute: Tolkien (in an essay on the Languages of Middle-earth) describes The Shire as having an area of 18,000 square miles (more than the size of Yorkshire). A triangular area 100 x 50 miles would have an area of around 2500 square miles, leaving a lot of territory unaccounted for. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.92.67.66 ( talk • contribs) 18:36 4 June 2003 (UTC)
It's not so much a question of accuracy or inaccuracy (though there are some details in your map that don't accord with the evidence of Tolkien's books). The problem is that maps like yours are speculation: they go beyond what Tolkien has provided. The odds are minimal that your map (or any map drawn after the fact) would agree with what Tolkien would have drawn, and therefore it does not constitute reasonable evidence in a discussion (say) of the "true" area of the Shire.
Speculation is not always bad, but it's hard to do well. (Karen Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-Earth for example has a bad track record, with many details that contradict the evidence of the books.) What we should be posting in Wikipedia is information backed by Tolkien's books, not information invented because, for example, it would be nice to have a map. Anyone can draw a map, and any two of these are not likely to agree. Who's to say which is "right"? Elphion 18:10, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Image:Bagendwide.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot 23:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Image:Shirewide.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot 15:49, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
The last edit claims that Smeagol and Deagol are brothers. It is well known that they were related, but as far as I can tell from other scources, they are cousins. Could someone please verify this? Hobbes543 17:37, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Why did I get redirected to this page when I looked up "scary"?
Can anyone provide actual citations placing Gamwich and Cotton in the Southfarthing? Or for Longbottom being founded by Toby Hornblower and not existing earlier (as seems reasonably clear from the wording of the Prologue)? Or for the Southfarthing being "rural and fertile" (a reasonable inference but not stated anywhere that I can find)? Thanks Elphion 16:48, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Hearing none, I removed these references. Elphion 02:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
There are images included from this person. A quick glance in English Google shows no references to their art. The images appear to come from a Czech fan Website, where the copyright legitimacy cannot be established. Without any apparent legal connection to the books or films, and apparently fan art, these don't belong in Wiki. They are removed.
24.130.9.210 ( talk) 05:11, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Why is Iceland mentioned in the section about farthings, and, more importantly, why is there a map of Iceland? It's irrelevant, let's get rid of it. Ingridjames ( talk) 05:07, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Where does this information come from? The "References?" query above might refer to the same issue. I have read most of the JRRT books and none of this is familiar to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mtpaley ( talk • contribs) 21:57, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
Following some of the links I find that at least some of them go to computer games, E.G. The historic Battle of Greenfields is a link to " http://www.ea.com/lotr-the-battle-for-middle-earth-2". I know that the history of fantasy universes is always a tricky area but surely in the case of Middle-Earth the only definitive source can be the works of JRR Tolkein. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mtpaley ( talk • contribs) 22:06, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
Give me a good reason why I should not delete the entire section. Mtpaley ( talk) 22:08, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
The material being added to Westfarthing goes into detail we don't need to add; and much of it is not really about the Shire but about Bilbo. -- Elphion ( talk) 00:50, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
The prohibition that no man could enter the Shire is mentioned at least three different times in this article. That's unnecessary. -- Lecen ( talk) 19:43, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
... but can 'women and children' travel there? Such terminology does matter in Middle Earth. 80.254.147.68 ( talk) 15:10, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi guys, in case you want to use one or two pictures from this set, I'd be happy to accommodate you: http://www.philipp-guenther.com/?page_id=131. Just shoot me an email to photoblog[at]philipp-guenther.com. 88.67.59.14 ( talk) 18:30, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
Just a suggestion for the existing pictures of Hobbiton, could someone please re-look at the captions - particularly the second one. I just feel that a person who does not bother reading the article might be misled by the existing picture captions and take it literally that the Shire was located in New Zealand! Lord Gorthol ( talk) 18:07, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
The Shire is, of course, not simply "identical" to the West Midlands. The region in a more remote past, as Mercia, serves at the same time as a model for the Mark of the Rohirrim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.108.229.89 ( talk) 21:32, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
Many thanks! Lord Gorthol ( talk) 08:02, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
Will some one please explain why the absence of any explanation of how Bucklebury Ferry was propelled or steered is not worthy of comment? This has puzzled me for years. If it was driven by the current (travelling diagonally across the Brandywine) then it could only have gone in one direction and would have had to be punted or rowed in the other. Also it could only have reached the opposite landing stage if guided by some chain or rope (none is mentioned). It certainly cannot have been "by magic" because Hobbits never used magic. I think that absence of explanation is a valid comment - far more so that any "do balrogs have wings?" nonsense. 141.241.26.21 ( talk) 10:56, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
Can anyone support the description of Bag End's land as "anonymous"? I propose to remove this description.
I also propose to re-insert the links to hobbit and Middle-earth, for users who arrive on the page in the Bag End section.
In my view the article on Bag End should be about Bag End. To me the information about Daddy Twofoot should be removed: it says nothing about Bag End, and belongs in the article on Bagshot Row, where it can be found.
BTW I thank the person who improved the introduction to the Bag End article in recent days. It improved the introduction I had inserted only a few days previously, to give a brief overview, including its relationships to the books its links to some of the most famous characters of Middle-earth: Bilbo, Frodo and Sam, not to mention Middle-earth itself. Regards 111.220.250.59 ( talk) 12:47, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
Sorry that should be Bag End's lane. 111.220.250.59 ( talk) 13:07, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
I would like to suggest that the localities of the Shire (Northfarthing, Stock, etc.) be transferred to a new separate article: (List of) Shire places. This would simplify the current article, to the benefit of users of Wikipedia, and enable it to concentrate on Shire-wide matters: an issue raised in above comments. Cheers 111.220.207.15 ( talk) 10:50, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
As an alternative, perhaps separate articles for the key locations of Bag End and/or Hobbiton? Bag End's notable guests should be included (e.g. Gandalf, Thorin, Saruman), and Hobbiton should have a reference to the Hobbiton Movie Set. 111.220.238.98 ( talk) 06:57, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Round Green Door. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Hog Farm ( talk) 04:55, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
This article is too long. It gives details not needed to even have a deep understanding of the Shire. On the other hand, this article is far shorter than the truly out of control article on Gondor. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 21:07, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place as to whether the redirect Afterlithe should be deleted, kept, or retargeted. It will be discussed at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 March 23#Afterlithe until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines. Hog Farm ( talk) 02:33, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place as to whether the redirect Winterfilth should be deleted, kept, or retargeted. It will be discussed at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 March 23#Winterfilth until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines. Hog Farm ( talk) 02:35, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place as to whether the redirect The Ivy Bush should be deleted, kept, or retargeted. It will be discussed at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 March 23#The Ivy Bush until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines. Hog Farm ( talk) 02:37, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
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A discussion is taking place as to whether the redirect The Golden Perch should be deleted, kept, or retargeted. It will be discussed at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 March 23#The Golden Perch until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines. Hog Farm ( talk) 02:40, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
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A discussion is taking place as to whether the redirect Halimath should be deleted, kept, or retargeted. It will be discussed at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 March 23#Halimath until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines. Hog Farm ( talk) 02:43, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
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A discussion is taking place as to whether the redirect Forelithe should be deleted, kept, or retargeted. It will be discussed at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 March 23#Forelithe until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines. Hog Farm ( talk) 02:47, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Eastmarch. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 08:28, 13 April 2020 (UTC)