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just goes to show how ignorant english speaking people actually are. oriental in europe doesnt have anything to do with the chinese at all. in fact it refers to arabs. but of course there is no mention of this in the article and discussion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Westerncultures_map.png
24.208.253.57 ( talk) 02:43, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I've removed this link before--with it being replaced each time--as I believe because Wikipedia discourages the use of forums...due to the reader not knowing who is doing the posting. I've removed the link once again, however, it seems to not be working.
My question is: Does the link (if it is working) up to Wiki standards to remain in the article or not?-- Joel Lindley 08:53, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Rather than reverting these recent edits wholesale, I attempted to go through and weed out phrases like "minority opinion" and "majority opinion" that are unsupported by any real evidence. Please discuss before putting them back.-- Media anthro 13:15, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I was curious to note that Media anthro completely re-wrote the article with sweeping changes to present his POV as if it was a fact. I attempted to edit his POV out, acknowledge the debate and then present the facts as objectively as possible. When I replaced his "sweeping changes", he reverted because of "sweeping changes"? Huh?
Please stick to the facts and leave the opinion aside. Anything other than a general discussion of the definition of the Orient is superfluous here. This is not the forum for either side to grind a political axe. The undeniable FACT is that some people think the term is derogatory, while some people disagree with that conclusion. It's important to acknowledge the debate. It's important to shed light on both opinions. But it's also important for Wikipedia to remain above and outside of the argument. Read Politically Correct, please. A thorough discussion about this type of topic is already throughly covered under that heading. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.174.182.186 ( talk) 23:08, 17 January 2007 (UTC).
You removed POV and inserted this? "Despite any negative connotations the term may have in North America, oriental appears in many government documents. "
Where is the evidence that the term has negative connotations. That's not a fact. That's an opinion and that's the lead sentence. You rewrote the entire piece to reflect your opinion. I'm more than happy to concede that that some of the verbiage can be editted, softened or redirected, but I will stand firm in my belief that the Wiki-content remain outside the debate completely. 70.174.182.186 ( talk) 17 January 2007 (UTC).
We almost completely agree. I agree that "Some people find the term Oriental offensive." This statement is inaccurate "the text ... simply asserts your opinion on political correctness". I don't know have an opinion on political correctness. I just think that the article should not take a position on the debate. The article should be outside of all controversy. There is some controversy as to whether the term is derogatory or not. That is a fact.
I have reverted all recent changes, including my own, to the last more or less stable version on 01/16/07. Please don't reinsert these major edits until disputes are resolved here. First, I absolutely object to this table:
Viewpoint of those who believe the term has derogatory implications. | Viewpoint of those who favor continued use of the term. |
---|---|
The term is an example of Eurocentrism. | Eurocentrism is not bad |
19th and 20th century Europeans and Americans who used the term held a patronizing attitude toward the Orient. The term's usage during that era therefore implies the insulting notion that Oriental nations and peoples are more backwards, while Occidental nations and peoples are more modern. | It is hypocritical fight bias by stereotyping the intentions and implications of modern speakers based upon the percieved thoughts of long deceased speakers and writers. |
Some works in "Oriental studies" were riddled with inaccurate information that was used to justify colonisation of these countries. This view was first, and most famously, put forward by Edward Said in his Orientalism. | The sum of human knowledge continues to expand and has always expanded. It is not practical or desirable to introduce a new term for every word about which knowledge in the English-speaking ambit has expanded. |
In Washington State it is illegal to use the word oriental in legislative and government-related documents because of the term's negative connotations [1]. | The term has no such prohibition in 49 other states, the District of Columbia or any US Territories. The term is found more than two hundred eighty thousand of government and state websites and documents [2] and across in the USA describing place names [3], medicine [4] [5], wildlife [6] [7] plants [8], food [9] [10] and people [11] [12] [13] or communities. [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] The term is even found on Equal Opportunity Employment [21] and Fair Housing [22] documents. |
Some Asians are offended by the term or consider the term archaic. citation needed | According to the FBI, some Asian gangs refer to themselves as oriental. [23] [24] |
The term has a derogatory connotation. Although the term is used in many business names it does not mean it is not offensive. citation needed | Businesses such as Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company, Mandarin Oriental, Oriental Financial Group, Inc., Orient Thai Airlines, Orient Steam Navigation Company, Orient Watch Co., Neptune Orient Lines are just a few of many successful enterprises to share this term as a part of their name and the owners of these business evidently feel there is nothing derogatory about the term. |
Many American Universities will no longer accept the official use of the term "Oriental" citation needed. | The highly-regarded American Oriental Society and others continue to use the term in its publishings. |
Some writers no longer use the term. citation needed | Conservative commentators [25] and prominent Filipina Michelle Malkin regularly employ the term. [26] [27] [28] [29]. |
This table posits exactly two poles on the term Oriental, and then attributes unsubstantiated positions to each. You, a Wikipedia editor cannot just declare that people find the term Oriental acceptable because the American Oriental Society uses the term in its name. Such assertions can only be made here if other reliable and notable sources make them. Same goes for the interpretation that since business names contain the term Oriental, they must not be offensive.
(The above, by the way, is a misstatement of the position that holds Oriental to be offensive when referring to people. This table is not only original research but an attempted beatdown on a straw man.)
Statements on the aspects of "political correctness" presumed to fuel the debate are similarly unacceptable, unless these views have been published somewhere else as verifiable facts and by a reliable and notable source.-- Media anthro 13:13, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The "stable version" was before you inserted your POV as a fact. Please stop trying to force your POV down the throats of others. Before eliminating the offending table please suggest a way to fairly show that there are opposing viewpoints. The FACT is the overwhelming and vast majority of North Americans agree with Europeans. They do not believe the term to be offensive. The majority opinion is supported by documented facts of usage in academia, business, criminal types. The minority position is supported by the one cited academic. If the truth be told the minority position has been give WAY too much latitude out of deference for the feelings of others. Either eliminate the debate altogether or quit snaking your POV into the article.
BTW, I recieved your message about the "reverting". I have not done any reverting. As far as I can tell you are the only one who has reverted. You continue to revert to your POV version. All I have done is added more references and edits. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.108.89.17 ( talk) 13:33, 18 January 2007 (UTC).
There is no doubt that the term "Oriental" is in widespread usage. It is a fact that some people find the term offensive. It is also a fact that some people do not believe the term has any negative connoations. It is a fact that the connotations of this term are in dispute. That's the end of the facts.
What remains is opinion. The current article does not claim anything about the minority or majority, rather User 70.108.89.17 claims the majority of North Americans in his posting above. I think the research supports that claim. I suggest that those who disagree provide proof to the contrary. At the very least he has proven that there is some question as to the terms connotations. If both sides of this issue are not fully presented, prejudicial readers won't have any idea why there are people who feel strongly one way or the other. Therefore, I agree with some stylistic set aside (whether that is in a table or in another format) which describes both sides of the debate without endorsing either side of the debate.
Can you suggest another way to present the debate without favoring one side of the debate?
References
This article claims nothing about any "overwhelming majority" of anything. Media anthro should read the article before reverting to his POV piece. Heck, he even admits it's POV up above in the discussion! This isn't the forum to open a debate. Just stick to the facts. Meanwhile, what I see is a mountain of footnotes on one side of the table and a lot of "feeling" and opinion on the other side. Perhaps you should do some research to support your position instead of wiping out a well-documented article.
BTW, I find it very helpful to compare the two schools of thought side-by-side. Although I personally think the term Oriental sounds a bit archaic, I really thought the comparison to the word Jew was interesting. 71.166.165.104 20:37, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The so-called novel interpretation is that Oriental is considered derogatory. That's simply an opinion.
The table is gone. And I agree with nearly everything you stated, except of the the "straw man". If you look at the history of the article, the article long ago claimed as a fact certain that Oriental was a derogatory term. When that assertion was challenged, it was editted away because there were no facts to back up the opposing opinion. So now that facts are inserted to verify the claims of the opposing opinion, but now the work is labeled as "original research". Huh? This sounds like censorship because of vested-POV interests.
Either eliminate the debate entirely or allow both sides to present their views. I'm in perfect agreement with a statement that says something to the effect of: "A number of people find the term objectionable, most people have no objection to the term." As for "The term is mostly archaic." Prove it and I'll sign off on it. And as for "It does not see frequent usage, outside of proper nouns." I would disagree with that statement completely and I believe that statement is derived largely from your region of North America or perhaps your small circle of friends. On government sites alone the term is used on not less than 280,000 pages. The term is found on MILLIONS of pages across the Internet and is a common term in some parts of the country. I would agree that "very few people are even debating the matter." But I also think this statement supports the side who sees no problem with the term. Although few people are debating the term's usage, this debate does occur.
The trouble is how much of the argument is presented here and how is the argument presented?
Those who purport that "Oriental" is derogatory point to the work of Edward Said as proof to substantiate their claim. They refute the opposing viewpoint because there is virtually no scholarly reference directly refuting Mr. Said. Of course there is no direct refutation. Mr. Said was presenting a new and minority viewpoint which differed from the accepted and majority viewpoint. The majority and already-accepted position has no burden of proof. In other words, the term has been used, is being used and will be used. Therefore there is no other justification necessary other than the mountains and mountains of contemporary usage which are easily documented. No one EVER writes a book, thesis or document to prove that a term in general usage should remain in general usage. Rather ... it just keeps being used.
Additionally, almost the entirety of "oriental = bad" argument is founded upon the work of one scholar. This argument is already well-documented under Edward Said. I propose removing almost all of this debate and pointing those who are interested to the Edward Said page. I think it would be fair and safe to change Perceptions and Connotations to read:
The problem I have with this suggestion is that, it seems to give to much credence to what seems an minority position. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.108.89.17 ( talk) 23:09, 18 January 2007 (UTC).
I'll place sources here as I come across them.
Some words and phrases that refer to racial and ethnic groups are clearly offensive. Other words (e.g., Oriental, colored) are outdated or inaccurate.
This bill changes the terms "oriental medicine" and "oriental massage" in existing statutes to "Asian medicine" and "Asian massage... Current statutes make use of the term "oriental," which reflects a socio-political past that has been discredited, based upon ideologies that are no longer accepted. Many Americans today, and particularly Asian Americans, find the term "oriental" offensive and prefer the more neutral "Asian."
The term Asian is now strongly preferred to Oriental by persons native to Asia or descended from Asian people. Both terms are rooted in geography rather than ethnicity, but while Asian is considered neutral, Oriental sounds archaic and, to many Asian people, offensive. Why? The term Oriental was widely used in the past in the Western world to refer to foreign cultures and places that might have value for being "exotic," although not on a par with European civilization. It is also worth noting that the term Oriental is very nonspecific.
often capitalized, sometimes offensive : ASIAN
taboo term: a highly offensive term for somebody from East Asia
-- Media anthro 00:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I welcome these and other sources which seem to back up your position. However, none of these sources will convince me that Oriental is a perjorative term. Just as I am quite sure that none of my arguments or references will convince you that there is nothing the matter with being an Oriental. However, I do think there is a place for these references in this article. I do not think this article should make espouse either opinion, as neither opinion can be established as a fact. Perceptions and connotations are nearly always subjective to some degree. So the problem is that this is an argument that can't be settled in this format. For every expert which is presented, an opposing viewpoint can be supplied.
BTW, neither your (nor my) anecdotal evidence has any value, but for what it is worth I know of many people (including myself) who self-identify as "oriental". I don't want to waste your time trying to explain something to you which you really don't care to know, so I'll remain as succinct as possible. No matter what prejudices are attached to the words "jew" or "white", jews and caucasians have no desire or intention of relabeling themselves. Perhaps this is because they feel comfortable being Jewish and/or white, no matter what those terms might mean or imply. I think it is the same with me as an Oriental. I think those who fight to change the term "Oriental" imply that there is something wrong with being Oriental. This strikes an emotional chord with me, because it's a direct insult at me and my Oriental heritage. I know that this emotion is completely non-academic and I can't back this up with footnotes, but at least it helps you understand my passion. I know that there are a good many who agree with me. I know there are a good many who agree with you. The overwhelming majority probably doesn't think about it at the usage of this term.
While there might be an academic resource which has already described my opinion, I don't know where it is or if it exists. What I know for a fact is that the term is in common usage. I also know that there is a movement to purge the term from usage. I and others disagree with this movement. Most people are completely unaware of this "struggle."
[N]one of these sources will convince me that Oriental is a perjorative term. I can live with that. I haven't been trying to establish that you're wrong in not seeing it as outdated or perjorative, but rather that is that it is documented that Oriental is broadly seen as outdated, pejorative or offensive in the US and that this is not a fringe opinion.
I think that there's plenty of room to include the view you present provided that you can find reliable sources (please consider reading that link) that document this.
Finally, you can sign your posts by doing this: ~~~~. Makes it easier to keep track of who's saying what.-- Media anthro 10:27, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I understand your opinion. You're entitled to your opinion. I've read the opposing viewpoint ad nauseum. However, I think that opinion is wrong and I fully appreciate you feel the same about my opinion. Repeating what I believe doesn't convince you of anything. Repeating what you believe doesn't convince me of anything. Furthermore, I understand sourcing and I don't appreciate being patronized. I hope that doesn't come off as too snide, but I'm just trying to establish our ground rules.
When I first read the Oriental article quite sometime ago, the article said that Washington State had "barred the term's usage, etc." This was made as an unverified claim to support the position that Oriental is somehow bad. First of all I found it preposterous that the term would be kept out of legal and governmental documents as I live in the Washington DC area, but travel to California and the Gulf Coast often. In all three places I have the opportunity to interact with government officials, so I doubted the veracity of this claim. (I already know that personal knowledge is not a basis for encyclopedic research.) So because I doubted this claim, I did the research to footnote the "preferred terminology statute" reference [1] found in this article. BTW, as an American who well remembers the Soviet Union, it's shocking to see words (and by default thought) regulated in the United States of America.
But this got me curious. I knew for a fact that I would not find a law anywhere that defines "oriental" as the preferred terminology. People don't make laws to endorse the legality of what doing what they have always done. Therefore, I knew it would be impossible to prove a negative. Of course, there are no laws against oriental, because it's a total non-issue for most of the country. This "controversy" is only an issue in one of the most left-leaning states in the Union. Thus, I can't find a law in any other state that says, "oriental = okay". However, I can verifiable prove that the word is in current usage in by governmental agencies across the country. How much more of an endorsement by the government can you get than to have the word on EOE and Fair Housing documents?!
Pay dirt, baby. Read it and weep. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.166.165.104 ( talk) 22:14, 20 January 2007 (UTC).
By the same token, even in Washington state, one will not find a law that defines "European" as preferred over "white". It doesn't address these terms because they are non-issues. By the standard you are trying to impose, it would be impossible to prove that "Jew" is preferred over "kike" because there is no law in any state that specifically says "Jew" is preferred terminology over "kike." This law doesn't exist because NOBODY needs this law. So why do they feel they need this law in Washington State? Is it because Asians were persecuted in Washington prior to the law and now Orientals are free at last? Or is this law simply a tit for tat reaction in a state sensitive about political correctness? I can't definitively answer this question, but this is an interesting read for arriving at your own conclusions.
It is my opinion, an opinion you obviously disagree with, that the word oriental is pervasive and accepted and used all over the country. Given the limitations you are attempting to impose it would be equally impossible to prove that "white" is an accepted term. Certainly, one could point to usages of the term "white" everywhere, but it would be very difficult if not impossible for you to find an academic who has put together an essay, thesis or book describing why the term "white" is acceptable. While it might be nearly impossible to prove that "white" is preferred terminology over "European", it would be a simple matter to prove that lots of people use the word "white".
But how could one possibly disprove the strongly-held assertions of others that "white" is somehow perjorative, but "European" and "European American" are preferred terminologies? While someone who believes this theory might be able to point to a few non-white writers whose life work revolved around "caucasian studies", it would be much more difficult for the majority to point to academic works which directly endorsed the use of the word "white".
How could one possibly prove that "white" is not perjorative (in the opinions of SOME people)? We're not trying to prove the term doesn't offend some people. I would guess that nearly every label would offend somebody. I'm just trying establish that an accepted and commonly used term doesn't offend EVERY person. If the word was offensive would it be used by government, by business, by academia? How much more sourcing can one possible find than common usage? Conversely, can you point the the American Kike Institute? Can you point to a university that has a WOP Studies program? Can find a Fair Housing or EOE document that allows the respondant to choose between honkie, colored, beaner or oriental? Come on now. At some point, it's not that you're not understanding, it's that you're trying not to understand.
I don't like ad hominem attacks, so I hope this doesn't sound like one. But it is my guess that you have so completely bought into the "oriental = bad" mindset, that you are blinded to the staggering majority of Americans who would disagree with you.
As an aside, I think the text about "oriental" being accepted in Europe is probably baloney --- especially by your standards. This text was inserted by Europeans who saw the article and stepped in to insert their opinions. The difference is, while Orientals are 5% or less of the American population, Orientals are 1% or less of the European population. Thus, the argument (which is a small one here) is completely off the radar over there. I think English speakers in Europe probably feel the same way we feel here. Some people think Oriental is archaic. Some people think Oriental is okay. Some tiny percentage feel strongly one way or the other.
BTW, here are more "pro-oriental" references. These guys look pretty serious and they don't look to be in the business of being perjorative toward East Asian cultures and peoples:
Journal of the American Oriental Society
The Oriental Institute at the University of Chicago
The San Diego State University's Department of Linguistics and Oriental Languages
Do you think the Oriental Yellow Pages is in the business of offending Asians?
[
The list goes on and on and on ... 70.108.89.17 12:21, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
According to Media anthro's source Oriental is "often capitalized, sometimes offensive". That's exactly what I'm willing to concede. However, Merriam Webster does NOT say "this term should not be used to describe people." I agree completely with the dictionary. Anything said beyond the point of "sometimes offensive" is simply opinion. We can argue about the meaning of "sometimes" and we can argue about the meaning of "offensive" all day long. But can we please agree that it's "sometimes offensive" and not "always offensive". Who needs a lecture about the 19th and 20th Century academics? If you open up the debate to anything more than accepted fact you end up with a discussion forum. 71.166.165.104 22:20, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
You're so completely convinced of your own certitude that you can't allow for another possibility of truth. It's beginning to get quite frustrating. I am now convinced that it's not that you are unable to understand the alternative, but that you refuse to understand the alternative. I'm begging you ... PLEASE stop changing my words. (By "my words" I do not mean "the article". I mean please stop changing my argument into something that I never said and that was never said, just so you can punch down something ridiculous.
For example, "I do not agree that the Merriam-Webster description of 'sometimes offensive' should be reinterpreted to mean 'some people prefer to be called Oriental'." First of all, you have no clue what some people prefer. You really don't. The fact is SOME PEOPLE (the Oriental Playboys for example) DO prefer to be called Oriental. What I said and "sometimes offensive" does not mean "always offensive". "Sometimes offensive" does not mean "offensive" when referring to people. Did it ever dawn on you that the people who write the dictionary have already had this discussion? After much discussion, they probably agree that the term was "sometimes offensive". I agree that the term is "sometimes offensive", but for some reason the dictionary doesn't seem to be a good enough source for you.
If you can't find a word on a reference page, go to "Edit" and then to "Find on this page". 70.108.89.17 12:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I disagree that this is going nowhere. I think your most recent edition was very close to acceptable. You eliminated all the irrelevant pontifications regarding 19th Century Academics. In response, I blasted all the counter-points. I for one would much prefer to stick to the facts. I'm not in favor of arguing toward an "oriental = good" viewpoint. I just don't think the evidence supports "oriental = bad". I will accuse you of gleaning quotes from your sources which support your position, rather than pulling in neutral quotes. You were a tricksy hobbit when you quoted "Random House", a dictionary publisher, blurring the line between a "dictionary" and a much more biased work: "The Guide to Sensitive Language." I hope you read the most recent edit before reverting. I think it's close to something we can agree on.
70.108.89.17
13:24, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
BTW, a quick anecdote of why I hate political correctness. Last night for dinner I ate an "Asian Fusion" restaurant. Do you know what "Asian Fusion" was? Oriental! In other words mixed up various cuisines from East Asian and call it Asian Fusion. The reason this ticks me off is because we've replaced one perfectly fine word with two inaccurate words. It wasn't "Asian" as there were no Khababs, no bortch, no curries. It wasn't "fusion". (It wasn't fission either.) It was friggin' Oriental cuisine. (Mine was teriyaki with sides of kimchee and some chinese noodles. Pretty good. Hers was fried flounder with ponjon (or however you spell it). I'm running late. ta ta 70.108.89.17 13:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Do what you will, but if you feel compelled to start putting in discussions of 19th and 20th century Orientalism under "Perceptions and Connotations", then I'll feel compelled to put in the counter points. I don't have any problem with a separate sub-heading that talks about how some older material is out of date, that's perfectly fine. Where I draw the line is when you insert inferences derived from these facts.
Pay dirt, baby. Read it and weep. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.166.165.104 ( talk) 22:16, 20 January 2007 (UTC).
Well, at least you didn't revert.
The references, btw, are rock solid and indisputable. Yale Book Review. US News. Professor's of English and a well-researched book. The only thing I'm curious to see is how you're going to find a way to interweave your opinion into the article. You've been driving your POV from the get-go, as evidenced by the quotes you pulled from your references to make it appear as if your references agreed with your position. My favorite one was when you blurred the line between Random House (a maker of dictionaries) and Random House's Guide to Sensitive Language. My guess is that you will find another procedural move to stifle facts which differ from your opinion. 71.166.165.104 22:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Correction. You see one paragraph in this latest round that you think supports your POV. I have editted to indicate that Professor Morrow was attempting sarcasm in the extreme when she stated, "don't call them "Oriental," for this is Eurocentric." Read the references and then at last you will come to the realization that not everyone in the world agrees with your POV. 70.108.89.17 01:23, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
References
Can any interested editors comment on 1) the tone of the article, particularly Perceptions and connotations 2) the appropriateness of the sources used to document various positions in that section? It's difficult to recommend any good starting point on this talk page for more background, but try this. Thanks. -- Media anthro 22:48, 20 January 2007 (UTC)1
There is a mountain of sources to back up the opposing viewpoint. Have you considered the possibility that your opinion is not a fact?
Is there a single reference you can challenge? Or do you simply challenge the work as a whole because it doesn't support your opinion? Can you please point to a fact that is unverified? Can you please introduce a fact that remains unwritten? Since when is sourced and quoted material from reputable sources "Original Research"?
In other words, what's your excuse now ... 70.108.89.17 01:39, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
comment - I don't think this article is the place to talk about the controversy over political correctness, this is beyond the scope if this article. It is fair to simply state that the term is offensive in North America and leave it at that. futurebird 14:29, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
But why would you "leave it at that" when that opinion is clearly challenged as evidenced by a mountain of documentation. 70.108.89.17 22:50, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
In addition to Oriental, many images and words are "banned" from modern textbooks. Of course there are many scholars and commentators who disagree with the banning of these words and images. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.108.89.17 ( talk) 03:32, 21 January 2007 (UTC).
Please check the sources before you censor. Perhaps you'll learn something. I would prefer that you cease ad hominem attacks against me, but even so you don't need to take me seriously. If you haven't read the source material, you're uninformed and thus in no position to challenge the work of respected scholars.
BTW, in an article where it is claimed de facto that "oriental" is a bad word, it's important to understand the other words and concepts which have been banned. This gives a framework to understand both the political climate surrounding and the agenda of those who seek to forcibly eradicating the term from usage.
In previous editions, I asserted these facts based upon a wealth of sources, and it was claimed that this was "original research". Now, I have supplied facts founded upon serious scholarly work of others. I know it's quite a surprise that not everyone thinks the same way you think, but that's no reason to censor shocking material.
Let's be get the whole truth out there. Many "archaic" terms and images are banned from American textbooks specifically those which apply to so-called Asians. 70.108.89.17 12:17, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
"The creation of a polarity oriens/occidens originated in Roman imperial administration from the time of Diocletian and was taken up in Christian Latin literature, but the term Orient did not enter Western European languages until the time of the Crusades[1]" -- What does this mean? How can the poliarity oriens/occidens have been CREATED? the concept of west is DEFINED as the opposite of east -- the polarity is inherent to the meaning of the term. And how can the term orient not have appeared till the Crusades if (as was just noted) the words are Latin and date back to Diocletian at least? What is this supposed to mean?-- 24.199.120.71 21:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
The vasy majoritry of debate about this article arises from the fact that it redirects from "oriental". Most of this concerns US debates about "PC" and anti-PC terminology, debates that are largely meaningless ouitside the USA. I propose that we split the article into two separate ones Orient and Oriental. The latter might be called something more specific such as Oriental (ethnic label). Most of the Pro and Con stuff about the use of the term as a synonym for East Asian/Mongoloid etc could go there, with a link from here. Paul B 15:44, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Paul, I think this a great idea because there is a consensus about much of what Orient and Oriental means. However, there is some degree of controversy regarding the implications of the ethnic label Oriental. If the controversy is labeled as controversy then well-researched opposing viewpoints can document opinions which will allow the reader to make up his mind. This could also include larger/related issues such as chinaman ElderStatesman 13:46, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Can someone please reign in MediaAnthro who is on a baseless revert binge? ElderStatesman 16:34, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
It is hardly the fault of American editors that other international editors have not contributed to this section. Actually, the onus may lay with other international editors to get off their collective "donkeys". 72.190.100.130 03:37, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Absolutely true! 212.139.65.209 18:23, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I was brought up with the term 'oriental' meaning from the countries of Japan, China, Korea, Vietnam, etc. 'Asian' means someone from Asia. If we go around replacing 'oriental' with 'Asian', then how do we make the distinction? If you say 'Asian' to mean 'oriental', then what do you say to mean 'from Asia'? The oriental cultures share many features and historical events, while other Asian countries like Turkey and India are related to wholly different cultures and even different anthropological roots. 76.22.236.187 03:28, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
"oriental" being politically incorrect or offensive is just another example of people attempting to start a "chain-letter" or "fad" around the world so they can tell people "I started that".
With this tiny gloge using the Internet for high speed communication, people just love to start a rumour, only to see it explode and come back to them, after infecting the world with their disease. This is the analogous to the computer virus writers. It is the latest sickness affecting us via electronic media.
"Oriental" was and never will be offensive to people from those origins as evidenced by so many North American "Oriental" restaurants and "Oriental" societies named by the very culture themselves.
North Americans, grow a pair and stop being so gullible. Our English laguage has been destroyed by this very technique of people attempting to coin a phrase for world recognition by the "look-at-me" crowd.
"Asian" is not a correct term for this culture of people. Russians are Asian and not "Oriental", as well as are Arabs, Iraelites, Lebanese and Siberians. "North Americans" is likelwise not correct for all "Christians" or "whites" in the world.
Geez people! We have to start ignoring this influx of stupidity to preserve what we have left of our sanities. Just because one person says it and another repeats it does not make it true. I mean look at the people that think the movie hoax "nitro-glycerin" is real or even the biggest one of all... the "Global Warming" scam. 99.251.112.162 ( talk) 04:45, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Under the subheading "Usage of term", "Orientalism" should link to the Wiki article on the book; it currently links to the broader topic. I'd rectify that, but I just don't know how. 72.84.148.120 ( talk) 07:11, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
In the last sentence is it not redundant to say "The only other alternative..." How about just, "The alternative is to refer..." What do you fair people think?
By the way, I live in the US but I spent several months in Afghanistan. Much of my time was spent with British citizens, and they referred to the locals in this Southwest Asian country as Asians. The Brits also referred to some South Korean military officers as Orientals, and there was nothing derogatory about it that I could detect. My ancestors came from Norway, but I certainly do not get upset if someone calls me Scandinavian instead of Norwegian or American! Hildenja ( talk) 16:21, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Forgive me, but the tone of the intro was quite inappropriate for an encyclopedia, so I took the liberty of rewriting it, from:
The "Orient" is a term traditionally used in Western culture to refer to the Middle East, and Egypt resp. the whole Arabian influenced North Africa. Today also the eastern and southeastern Asia is sometimes called "Orient", except Russia, i.e. North Asia. The term "oriental" is considered politically incorrect. It refers to Asians as the people to the east, which makes the person using the term "oriental" declaring himself better than the Asians because he is basing the world around him. This may have been an acceptable term to us a long time ago, but times have changed and we know we are all equal, so the term "oriental" is politically incorrect.
-- Adoniscik ( talk) 20:51, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Originally "Orientals" were Semites. The common Arabic look was known as "Orientalid", and Jews were frequently referred to as "Orientals". "Oriental" meaning "East Asian" is a very modern concept. Something to this effect should be added to the article. I'll look for links... Dr Rgne ( talk) 10:14, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I have edited the part that said the whole Western World uses the term "oriental" to describe a person or artifact of East Asian origin. This is wrong!!!This maybe true for America - but is Wikipedia English only catering Americans? Not!!! The Term oriental refers in most countries to the live style , culture and products of the Middle East, North Africa and sometimes South Asia and even Central Asia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.176.36.176 ( talk) 06:03, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
I added a {{ cleanup}} tag just before the Perceptions and connotations section, with the following reason:
The rest of this article talks exclusively about the uses and perceptions of the term Oriental (and not the Orient) and would be better split into a separate article, interlinked in the See also section. This would improve the mapping of the language interwiki links, since other language wikipedias generally keep the concepts (Orient the noun meaning a vaguely defined region of the Earth; Oriental the adjective meaning of the Orient or of the east) separate. - 84user ( talk) 16:30, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
oriental means arab and bizantine, the usage of word oriental in U.S is wrong. in US, many things are used wrongly such as hispanic which means people from spain kingdom. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.179.82.180 ( talk) 20:44, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
The Derivation section has "The Land of the Rising Sun" to refer to Japan as an example of using "sun/rise" to refer to "east." The fact that Japan is east of China, and thus the sun rises on Japan before China (hence the name), has no reference to the terms for "sun/rising" being analogous with "east." I think it's irrelevant and should be removed, but I'm new here so I don't want to just go and delete something if someone else has a valid argument for its legitimacy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Phoenix 6 ( talk • contribs) 02:36, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
I have updated the section from Remnants of the older conception of the Orient still exist in the English language in such collocations as Oriental studies (now Asian Studies) to Equally valid terms for the Orient still exist in the English language in such collocations as Oriental studies (now Asian Studies in some countries). There is a widespread belief that moving to 'Asian Studies' by some seats of learning in the US and elsewhere was based on political correctness and has nothing to do with definition. My personal belief which is neither here nor there is an attempt by certain elements to Americanize and 'correct' the English language according to some local ideology. Please refer to [ Studies]. Being both British and coming from a very long line of men serving their country in the 'Orient' and having served as a journalist there for over twenty years I have never come across whether anecdotally, through research or in literature the use of 'Orient' to describe India, it is usually applied to Japan, China, Korea and so forth. Twobells ( talk) 11:39, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
"In British English, the term Oriental refers to people from East and Southeast Asia. On the other hand, the word "Asian" refers to people from Indian Subcontinent. Therefore, Orientals is the only term which can refer to people of East Asian origin."
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...is clearly Orient. It's even more orientalic than some countries of Far East, especially the culture of Uzbekistan is like a totally synonym for Orient, than there is Iran...but also Kazakhstan and other countries. This article needs much more perspectives -- 92.196.44.182 ( talk) 16:44, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
I studied German in college and one thing I learned is that the German word for "Austria" is "Österreich". I think this would literally translate as "Eastern Kingdom." Similarly, "Öst" means "East," so it seems to me that there is a likely connection in German due to Austria's easterly(ish) position from (southern) Germany. Finally, the German word for "Easter" is "Öster." Since Easter is a holiday highlighting a kind of rising, not of the sun, but of a person, the fact that "East" is part of the word for "Easter" in German and also a part of the German word for "Austria" leads me to think there is likely a connection between the three terms for "East," "Eastern Kingdom," and "East ... er." (I don't know what the "er" suffix, used in both German and English, indicates. I doubt that it is there because the German word for "he" is "er.")
Since I'm just a database programmer who got a minor in German, I don't have the fluency needed to sort this out, not even with automated translation tools because of the errors and lost nuance that they can cause.
So, native and other fluent German speakers, what do you think about this idea? Should it be considered for inclusion in the etymology section or am I wrong about these ideas? Thanks.
Mma 120.29.117.198 ( talk) 05:08, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
I tried to change this multiple times but oriental is highly derogatory in all forms of English especially in British English.
Yes it is used by small businesses who are unaware of the context but it is also used by the wider population in a unpolitically correct and racist way. A lot of East Asians have been called this in a derogatory way so it is a shame that this page has a pro-oriental sentiment and kinda fuels racism and misinformation.
Many people use Wikipedia to educate themselves on racism and when something like this is incorrect it has real world consequences.
Please could this be changed, the Asian community would really appreciate it.
https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2023-03-22/-Oriental-Is-it-racist--1imahiJ8u0U/index.html Bigbotnot2 ( talk) 15:51, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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just goes to show how ignorant english speaking people actually are. oriental in europe doesnt have anything to do with the chinese at all. in fact it refers to arabs. but of course there is no mention of this in the article and discussion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Westerncultures_map.png
24.208.253.57 ( talk) 02:43, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I've removed this link before--with it being replaced each time--as I believe because Wikipedia discourages the use of forums...due to the reader not knowing who is doing the posting. I've removed the link once again, however, it seems to not be working.
My question is: Does the link (if it is working) up to Wiki standards to remain in the article or not?-- Joel Lindley 08:53, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Rather than reverting these recent edits wholesale, I attempted to go through and weed out phrases like "minority opinion" and "majority opinion" that are unsupported by any real evidence. Please discuss before putting them back.-- Media anthro 13:15, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I was curious to note that Media anthro completely re-wrote the article with sweeping changes to present his POV as if it was a fact. I attempted to edit his POV out, acknowledge the debate and then present the facts as objectively as possible. When I replaced his "sweeping changes", he reverted because of "sweeping changes"? Huh?
Please stick to the facts and leave the opinion aside. Anything other than a general discussion of the definition of the Orient is superfluous here. This is not the forum for either side to grind a political axe. The undeniable FACT is that some people think the term is derogatory, while some people disagree with that conclusion. It's important to acknowledge the debate. It's important to shed light on both opinions. But it's also important for Wikipedia to remain above and outside of the argument. Read Politically Correct, please. A thorough discussion about this type of topic is already throughly covered under that heading. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.174.182.186 ( talk) 23:08, 17 January 2007 (UTC).
You removed POV and inserted this? "Despite any negative connotations the term may have in North America, oriental appears in many government documents. "
Where is the evidence that the term has negative connotations. That's not a fact. That's an opinion and that's the lead sentence. You rewrote the entire piece to reflect your opinion. I'm more than happy to concede that that some of the verbiage can be editted, softened or redirected, but I will stand firm in my belief that the Wiki-content remain outside the debate completely. 70.174.182.186 ( talk) 17 January 2007 (UTC).
We almost completely agree. I agree that "Some people find the term Oriental offensive." This statement is inaccurate "the text ... simply asserts your opinion on political correctness". I don't know have an opinion on political correctness. I just think that the article should not take a position on the debate. The article should be outside of all controversy. There is some controversy as to whether the term is derogatory or not. That is a fact.
I have reverted all recent changes, including my own, to the last more or less stable version on 01/16/07. Please don't reinsert these major edits until disputes are resolved here. First, I absolutely object to this table:
Viewpoint of those who believe the term has derogatory implications. | Viewpoint of those who favor continued use of the term. |
---|---|
The term is an example of Eurocentrism. | Eurocentrism is not bad |
19th and 20th century Europeans and Americans who used the term held a patronizing attitude toward the Orient. The term's usage during that era therefore implies the insulting notion that Oriental nations and peoples are more backwards, while Occidental nations and peoples are more modern. | It is hypocritical fight bias by stereotyping the intentions and implications of modern speakers based upon the percieved thoughts of long deceased speakers and writers. |
Some works in "Oriental studies" were riddled with inaccurate information that was used to justify colonisation of these countries. This view was first, and most famously, put forward by Edward Said in his Orientalism. | The sum of human knowledge continues to expand and has always expanded. It is not practical or desirable to introduce a new term for every word about which knowledge in the English-speaking ambit has expanded. |
In Washington State it is illegal to use the word oriental in legislative and government-related documents because of the term's negative connotations [1]. | The term has no such prohibition in 49 other states, the District of Columbia or any US Territories. The term is found more than two hundred eighty thousand of government and state websites and documents [2] and across in the USA describing place names [3], medicine [4] [5], wildlife [6] [7] plants [8], food [9] [10] and people [11] [12] [13] or communities. [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] The term is even found on Equal Opportunity Employment [21] and Fair Housing [22] documents. |
Some Asians are offended by the term or consider the term archaic. citation needed | According to the FBI, some Asian gangs refer to themselves as oriental. [23] [24] |
The term has a derogatory connotation. Although the term is used in many business names it does not mean it is not offensive. citation needed | Businesses such as Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company, Mandarin Oriental, Oriental Financial Group, Inc., Orient Thai Airlines, Orient Steam Navigation Company, Orient Watch Co., Neptune Orient Lines are just a few of many successful enterprises to share this term as a part of their name and the owners of these business evidently feel there is nothing derogatory about the term. |
Many American Universities will no longer accept the official use of the term "Oriental" citation needed. | The highly-regarded American Oriental Society and others continue to use the term in its publishings. |
Some writers no longer use the term. citation needed | Conservative commentators [25] and prominent Filipina Michelle Malkin regularly employ the term. [26] [27] [28] [29]. |
This table posits exactly two poles on the term Oriental, and then attributes unsubstantiated positions to each. You, a Wikipedia editor cannot just declare that people find the term Oriental acceptable because the American Oriental Society uses the term in its name. Such assertions can only be made here if other reliable and notable sources make them. Same goes for the interpretation that since business names contain the term Oriental, they must not be offensive.
(The above, by the way, is a misstatement of the position that holds Oriental to be offensive when referring to people. This table is not only original research but an attempted beatdown on a straw man.)
Statements on the aspects of "political correctness" presumed to fuel the debate are similarly unacceptable, unless these views have been published somewhere else as verifiable facts and by a reliable and notable source.-- Media anthro 13:13, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The "stable version" was before you inserted your POV as a fact. Please stop trying to force your POV down the throats of others. Before eliminating the offending table please suggest a way to fairly show that there are opposing viewpoints. The FACT is the overwhelming and vast majority of North Americans agree with Europeans. They do not believe the term to be offensive. The majority opinion is supported by documented facts of usage in academia, business, criminal types. The minority position is supported by the one cited academic. If the truth be told the minority position has been give WAY too much latitude out of deference for the feelings of others. Either eliminate the debate altogether or quit snaking your POV into the article.
BTW, I recieved your message about the "reverting". I have not done any reverting. As far as I can tell you are the only one who has reverted. You continue to revert to your POV version. All I have done is added more references and edits. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.108.89.17 ( talk) 13:33, 18 January 2007 (UTC).
There is no doubt that the term "Oriental" is in widespread usage. It is a fact that some people find the term offensive. It is also a fact that some people do not believe the term has any negative connoations. It is a fact that the connotations of this term are in dispute. That's the end of the facts.
What remains is opinion. The current article does not claim anything about the minority or majority, rather User 70.108.89.17 claims the majority of North Americans in his posting above. I think the research supports that claim. I suggest that those who disagree provide proof to the contrary. At the very least he has proven that there is some question as to the terms connotations. If both sides of this issue are not fully presented, prejudicial readers won't have any idea why there are people who feel strongly one way or the other. Therefore, I agree with some stylistic set aside (whether that is in a table or in another format) which describes both sides of the debate without endorsing either side of the debate.
Can you suggest another way to present the debate without favoring one side of the debate?
References
This article claims nothing about any "overwhelming majority" of anything. Media anthro should read the article before reverting to his POV piece. Heck, he even admits it's POV up above in the discussion! This isn't the forum to open a debate. Just stick to the facts. Meanwhile, what I see is a mountain of footnotes on one side of the table and a lot of "feeling" and opinion on the other side. Perhaps you should do some research to support your position instead of wiping out a well-documented article.
BTW, I find it very helpful to compare the two schools of thought side-by-side. Although I personally think the term Oriental sounds a bit archaic, I really thought the comparison to the word Jew was interesting. 71.166.165.104 20:37, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The so-called novel interpretation is that Oriental is considered derogatory. That's simply an opinion.
The table is gone. And I agree with nearly everything you stated, except of the the "straw man". If you look at the history of the article, the article long ago claimed as a fact certain that Oriental was a derogatory term. When that assertion was challenged, it was editted away because there were no facts to back up the opposing opinion. So now that facts are inserted to verify the claims of the opposing opinion, but now the work is labeled as "original research". Huh? This sounds like censorship because of vested-POV interests.
Either eliminate the debate entirely or allow both sides to present their views. I'm in perfect agreement with a statement that says something to the effect of: "A number of people find the term objectionable, most people have no objection to the term." As for "The term is mostly archaic." Prove it and I'll sign off on it. And as for "It does not see frequent usage, outside of proper nouns." I would disagree with that statement completely and I believe that statement is derived largely from your region of North America or perhaps your small circle of friends. On government sites alone the term is used on not less than 280,000 pages. The term is found on MILLIONS of pages across the Internet and is a common term in some parts of the country. I would agree that "very few people are even debating the matter." But I also think this statement supports the side who sees no problem with the term. Although few people are debating the term's usage, this debate does occur.
The trouble is how much of the argument is presented here and how is the argument presented?
Those who purport that "Oriental" is derogatory point to the work of Edward Said as proof to substantiate their claim. They refute the opposing viewpoint because there is virtually no scholarly reference directly refuting Mr. Said. Of course there is no direct refutation. Mr. Said was presenting a new and minority viewpoint which differed from the accepted and majority viewpoint. The majority and already-accepted position has no burden of proof. In other words, the term has been used, is being used and will be used. Therefore there is no other justification necessary other than the mountains and mountains of contemporary usage which are easily documented. No one EVER writes a book, thesis or document to prove that a term in general usage should remain in general usage. Rather ... it just keeps being used.
Additionally, almost the entirety of "oriental = bad" argument is founded upon the work of one scholar. This argument is already well-documented under Edward Said. I propose removing almost all of this debate and pointing those who are interested to the Edward Said page. I think it would be fair and safe to change Perceptions and Connotations to read:
The problem I have with this suggestion is that, it seems to give to much credence to what seems an minority position. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.108.89.17 ( talk) 23:09, 18 January 2007 (UTC).
I'll place sources here as I come across them.
Some words and phrases that refer to racial and ethnic groups are clearly offensive. Other words (e.g., Oriental, colored) are outdated or inaccurate.
This bill changes the terms "oriental medicine" and "oriental massage" in existing statutes to "Asian medicine" and "Asian massage... Current statutes make use of the term "oriental," which reflects a socio-political past that has been discredited, based upon ideologies that are no longer accepted. Many Americans today, and particularly Asian Americans, find the term "oriental" offensive and prefer the more neutral "Asian."
The term Asian is now strongly preferred to Oriental by persons native to Asia or descended from Asian people. Both terms are rooted in geography rather than ethnicity, but while Asian is considered neutral, Oriental sounds archaic and, to many Asian people, offensive. Why? The term Oriental was widely used in the past in the Western world to refer to foreign cultures and places that might have value for being "exotic," although not on a par with European civilization. It is also worth noting that the term Oriental is very nonspecific.
often capitalized, sometimes offensive : ASIAN
taboo term: a highly offensive term for somebody from East Asia
-- Media anthro 00:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I welcome these and other sources which seem to back up your position. However, none of these sources will convince me that Oriental is a perjorative term. Just as I am quite sure that none of my arguments or references will convince you that there is nothing the matter with being an Oriental. However, I do think there is a place for these references in this article. I do not think this article should make espouse either opinion, as neither opinion can be established as a fact. Perceptions and connotations are nearly always subjective to some degree. So the problem is that this is an argument that can't be settled in this format. For every expert which is presented, an opposing viewpoint can be supplied.
BTW, neither your (nor my) anecdotal evidence has any value, but for what it is worth I know of many people (including myself) who self-identify as "oriental". I don't want to waste your time trying to explain something to you which you really don't care to know, so I'll remain as succinct as possible. No matter what prejudices are attached to the words "jew" or "white", jews and caucasians have no desire or intention of relabeling themselves. Perhaps this is because they feel comfortable being Jewish and/or white, no matter what those terms might mean or imply. I think it is the same with me as an Oriental. I think those who fight to change the term "Oriental" imply that there is something wrong with being Oriental. This strikes an emotional chord with me, because it's a direct insult at me and my Oriental heritage. I know that this emotion is completely non-academic and I can't back this up with footnotes, but at least it helps you understand my passion. I know that there are a good many who agree with me. I know there are a good many who agree with you. The overwhelming majority probably doesn't think about it at the usage of this term.
While there might be an academic resource which has already described my opinion, I don't know where it is or if it exists. What I know for a fact is that the term is in common usage. I also know that there is a movement to purge the term from usage. I and others disagree with this movement. Most people are completely unaware of this "struggle."
[N]one of these sources will convince me that Oriental is a perjorative term. I can live with that. I haven't been trying to establish that you're wrong in not seeing it as outdated or perjorative, but rather that is that it is documented that Oriental is broadly seen as outdated, pejorative or offensive in the US and that this is not a fringe opinion.
I think that there's plenty of room to include the view you present provided that you can find reliable sources (please consider reading that link) that document this.
Finally, you can sign your posts by doing this: ~~~~. Makes it easier to keep track of who's saying what.-- Media anthro 10:27, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I understand your opinion. You're entitled to your opinion. I've read the opposing viewpoint ad nauseum. However, I think that opinion is wrong and I fully appreciate you feel the same about my opinion. Repeating what I believe doesn't convince you of anything. Repeating what you believe doesn't convince me of anything. Furthermore, I understand sourcing and I don't appreciate being patronized. I hope that doesn't come off as too snide, but I'm just trying to establish our ground rules.
When I first read the Oriental article quite sometime ago, the article said that Washington State had "barred the term's usage, etc." This was made as an unverified claim to support the position that Oriental is somehow bad. First of all I found it preposterous that the term would be kept out of legal and governmental documents as I live in the Washington DC area, but travel to California and the Gulf Coast often. In all three places I have the opportunity to interact with government officials, so I doubted the veracity of this claim. (I already know that personal knowledge is not a basis for encyclopedic research.) So because I doubted this claim, I did the research to footnote the "preferred terminology statute" reference [1] found in this article. BTW, as an American who well remembers the Soviet Union, it's shocking to see words (and by default thought) regulated in the United States of America.
But this got me curious. I knew for a fact that I would not find a law anywhere that defines "oriental" as the preferred terminology. People don't make laws to endorse the legality of what doing what they have always done. Therefore, I knew it would be impossible to prove a negative. Of course, there are no laws against oriental, because it's a total non-issue for most of the country. This "controversy" is only an issue in one of the most left-leaning states in the Union. Thus, I can't find a law in any other state that says, "oriental = okay". However, I can verifiable prove that the word is in current usage in by governmental agencies across the country. How much more of an endorsement by the government can you get than to have the word on EOE and Fair Housing documents?!
Pay dirt, baby. Read it and weep. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.166.165.104 ( talk) 22:14, 20 January 2007 (UTC).
By the same token, even in Washington state, one will not find a law that defines "European" as preferred over "white". It doesn't address these terms because they are non-issues. By the standard you are trying to impose, it would be impossible to prove that "Jew" is preferred over "kike" because there is no law in any state that specifically says "Jew" is preferred terminology over "kike." This law doesn't exist because NOBODY needs this law. So why do they feel they need this law in Washington State? Is it because Asians were persecuted in Washington prior to the law and now Orientals are free at last? Or is this law simply a tit for tat reaction in a state sensitive about political correctness? I can't definitively answer this question, but this is an interesting read for arriving at your own conclusions.
It is my opinion, an opinion you obviously disagree with, that the word oriental is pervasive and accepted and used all over the country. Given the limitations you are attempting to impose it would be equally impossible to prove that "white" is an accepted term. Certainly, one could point to usages of the term "white" everywhere, but it would be very difficult if not impossible for you to find an academic who has put together an essay, thesis or book describing why the term "white" is acceptable. While it might be nearly impossible to prove that "white" is preferred terminology over "European", it would be a simple matter to prove that lots of people use the word "white".
But how could one possibly disprove the strongly-held assertions of others that "white" is somehow perjorative, but "European" and "European American" are preferred terminologies? While someone who believes this theory might be able to point to a few non-white writers whose life work revolved around "caucasian studies", it would be much more difficult for the majority to point to academic works which directly endorsed the use of the word "white".
How could one possibly prove that "white" is not perjorative (in the opinions of SOME people)? We're not trying to prove the term doesn't offend some people. I would guess that nearly every label would offend somebody. I'm just trying establish that an accepted and commonly used term doesn't offend EVERY person. If the word was offensive would it be used by government, by business, by academia? How much more sourcing can one possible find than common usage? Conversely, can you point the the American Kike Institute? Can you point to a university that has a WOP Studies program? Can find a Fair Housing or EOE document that allows the respondant to choose between honkie, colored, beaner or oriental? Come on now. At some point, it's not that you're not understanding, it's that you're trying not to understand.
I don't like ad hominem attacks, so I hope this doesn't sound like one. But it is my guess that you have so completely bought into the "oriental = bad" mindset, that you are blinded to the staggering majority of Americans who would disagree with you.
As an aside, I think the text about "oriental" being accepted in Europe is probably baloney --- especially by your standards. This text was inserted by Europeans who saw the article and stepped in to insert their opinions. The difference is, while Orientals are 5% or less of the American population, Orientals are 1% or less of the European population. Thus, the argument (which is a small one here) is completely off the radar over there. I think English speakers in Europe probably feel the same way we feel here. Some people think Oriental is archaic. Some people think Oriental is okay. Some tiny percentage feel strongly one way or the other.
BTW, here are more "pro-oriental" references. These guys look pretty serious and they don't look to be in the business of being perjorative toward East Asian cultures and peoples:
Journal of the American Oriental Society
The Oriental Institute at the University of Chicago
The San Diego State University's Department of Linguistics and Oriental Languages
Do you think the Oriental Yellow Pages is in the business of offending Asians?
[
The list goes on and on and on ... 70.108.89.17 12:21, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
According to Media anthro's source Oriental is "often capitalized, sometimes offensive". That's exactly what I'm willing to concede. However, Merriam Webster does NOT say "this term should not be used to describe people." I agree completely with the dictionary. Anything said beyond the point of "sometimes offensive" is simply opinion. We can argue about the meaning of "sometimes" and we can argue about the meaning of "offensive" all day long. But can we please agree that it's "sometimes offensive" and not "always offensive". Who needs a lecture about the 19th and 20th Century academics? If you open up the debate to anything more than accepted fact you end up with a discussion forum. 71.166.165.104 22:20, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
You're so completely convinced of your own certitude that you can't allow for another possibility of truth. It's beginning to get quite frustrating. I am now convinced that it's not that you are unable to understand the alternative, but that you refuse to understand the alternative. I'm begging you ... PLEASE stop changing my words. (By "my words" I do not mean "the article". I mean please stop changing my argument into something that I never said and that was never said, just so you can punch down something ridiculous.
For example, "I do not agree that the Merriam-Webster description of 'sometimes offensive' should be reinterpreted to mean 'some people prefer to be called Oriental'." First of all, you have no clue what some people prefer. You really don't. The fact is SOME PEOPLE (the Oriental Playboys for example) DO prefer to be called Oriental. What I said and "sometimes offensive" does not mean "always offensive". "Sometimes offensive" does not mean "offensive" when referring to people. Did it ever dawn on you that the people who write the dictionary have already had this discussion? After much discussion, they probably agree that the term was "sometimes offensive". I agree that the term is "sometimes offensive", but for some reason the dictionary doesn't seem to be a good enough source for you.
If you can't find a word on a reference page, go to "Edit" and then to "Find on this page". 70.108.89.17 12:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I disagree that this is going nowhere. I think your most recent edition was very close to acceptable. You eliminated all the irrelevant pontifications regarding 19th Century Academics. In response, I blasted all the counter-points. I for one would much prefer to stick to the facts. I'm not in favor of arguing toward an "oriental = good" viewpoint. I just don't think the evidence supports "oriental = bad". I will accuse you of gleaning quotes from your sources which support your position, rather than pulling in neutral quotes. You were a tricksy hobbit when you quoted "Random House", a dictionary publisher, blurring the line between a "dictionary" and a much more biased work: "The Guide to Sensitive Language." I hope you read the most recent edit before reverting. I think it's close to something we can agree on.
70.108.89.17
13:24, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
BTW, a quick anecdote of why I hate political correctness. Last night for dinner I ate an "Asian Fusion" restaurant. Do you know what "Asian Fusion" was? Oriental! In other words mixed up various cuisines from East Asian and call it Asian Fusion. The reason this ticks me off is because we've replaced one perfectly fine word with two inaccurate words. It wasn't "Asian" as there were no Khababs, no bortch, no curries. It wasn't "fusion". (It wasn't fission either.) It was friggin' Oriental cuisine. (Mine was teriyaki with sides of kimchee and some chinese noodles. Pretty good. Hers was fried flounder with ponjon (or however you spell it). I'm running late. ta ta 70.108.89.17 13:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Do what you will, but if you feel compelled to start putting in discussions of 19th and 20th century Orientalism under "Perceptions and Connotations", then I'll feel compelled to put in the counter points. I don't have any problem with a separate sub-heading that talks about how some older material is out of date, that's perfectly fine. Where I draw the line is when you insert inferences derived from these facts.
Pay dirt, baby. Read it and weep. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.166.165.104 ( talk) 22:16, 20 January 2007 (UTC).
Well, at least you didn't revert.
The references, btw, are rock solid and indisputable. Yale Book Review. US News. Professor's of English and a well-researched book. The only thing I'm curious to see is how you're going to find a way to interweave your opinion into the article. You've been driving your POV from the get-go, as evidenced by the quotes you pulled from your references to make it appear as if your references agreed with your position. My favorite one was when you blurred the line between Random House (a maker of dictionaries) and Random House's Guide to Sensitive Language. My guess is that you will find another procedural move to stifle facts which differ from your opinion. 71.166.165.104 22:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Correction. You see one paragraph in this latest round that you think supports your POV. I have editted to indicate that Professor Morrow was attempting sarcasm in the extreme when she stated, "don't call them "Oriental," for this is Eurocentric." Read the references and then at last you will come to the realization that not everyone in the world agrees with your POV. 70.108.89.17 01:23, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
References
Can any interested editors comment on 1) the tone of the article, particularly Perceptions and connotations 2) the appropriateness of the sources used to document various positions in that section? It's difficult to recommend any good starting point on this talk page for more background, but try this. Thanks. -- Media anthro 22:48, 20 January 2007 (UTC)1
There is a mountain of sources to back up the opposing viewpoint. Have you considered the possibility that your opinion is not a fact?
Is there a single reference you can challenge? Or do you simply challenge the work as a whole because it doesn't support your opinion? Can you please point to a fact that is unverified? Can you please introduce a fact that remains unwritten? Since when is sourced and quoted material from reputable sources "Original Research"?
In other words, what's your excuse now ... 70.108.89.17 01:39, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
comment - I don't think this article is the place to talk about the controversy over political correctness, this is beyond the scope if this article. It is fair to simply state that the term is offensive in North America and leave it at that. futurebird 14:29, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
But why would you "leave it at that" when that opinion is clearly challenged as evidenced by a mountain of documentation. 70.108.89.17 22:50, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
In addition to Oriental, many images and words are "banned" from modern textbooks. Of course there are many scholars and commentators who disagree with the banning of these words and images. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.108.89.17 ( talk) 03:32, 21 January 2007 (UTC).
Please check the sources before you censor. Perhaps you'll learn something. I would prefer that you cease ad hominem attacks against me, but even so you don't need to take me seriously. If you haven't read the source material, you're uninformed and thus in no position to challenge the work of respected scholars.
BTW, in an article where it is claimed de facto that "oriental" is a bad word, it's important to understand the other words and concepts which have been banned. This gives a framework to understand both the political climate surrounding and the agenda of those who seek to forcibly eradicating the term from usage.
In previous editions, I asserted these facts based upon a wealth of sources, and it was claimed that this was "original research". Now, I have supplied facts founded upon serious scholarly work of others. I know it's quite a surprise that not everyone thinks the same way you think, but that's no reason to censor shocking material.
Let's be get the whole truth out there. Many "archaic" terms and images are banned from American textbooks specifically those which apply to so-called Asians. 70.108.89.17 12:17, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
"The creation of a polarity oriens/occidens originated in Roman imperial administration from the time of Diocletian and was taken up in Christian Latin literature, but the term Orient did not enter Western European languages until the time of the Crusades[1]" -- What does this mean? How can the poliarity oriens/occidens have been CREATED? the concept of west is DEFINED as the opposite of east -- the polarity is inherent to the meaning of the term. And how can the term orient not have appeared till the Crusades if (as was just noted) the words are Latin and date back to Diocletian at least? What is this supposed to mean?-- 24.199.120.71 21:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
The vasy majoritry of debate about this article arises from the fact that it redirects from "oriental". Most of this concerns US debates about "PC" and anti-PC terminology, debates that are largely meaningless ouitside the USA. I propose that we split the article into two separate ones Orient and Oriental. The latter might be called something more specific such as Oriental (ethnic label). Most of the Pro and Con stuff about the use of the term as a synonym for East Asian/Mongoloid etc could go there, with a link from here. Paul B 15:44, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Paul, I think this a great idea because there is a consensus about much of what Orient and Oriental means. However, there is some degree of controversy regarding the implications of the ethnic label Oriental. If the controversy is labeled as controversy then well-researched opposing viewpoints can document opinions which will allow the reader to make up his mind. This could also include larger/related issues such as chinaman ElderStatesman 13:46, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Can someone please reign in MediaAnthro who is on a baseless revert binge? ElderStatesman 16:34, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
It is hardly the fault of American editors that other international editors have not contributed to this section. Actually, the onus may lay with other international editors to get off their collective "donkeys". 72.190.100.130 03:37, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Absolutely true! 212.139.65.209 18:23, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I was brought up with the term 'oriental' meaning from the countries of Japan, China, Korea, Vietnam, etc. 'Asian' means someone from Asia. If we go around replacing 'oriental' with 'Asian', then how do we make the distinction? If you say 'Asian' to mean 'oriental', then what do you say to mean 'from Asia'? The oriental cultures share many features and historical events, while other Asian countries like Turkey and India are related to wholly different cultures and even different anthropological roots. 76.22.236.187 03:28, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
"oriental" being politically incorrect or offensive is just another example of people attempting to start a "chain-letter" or "fad" around the world so they can tell people "I started that".
With this tiny gloge using the Internet for high speed communication, people just love to start a rumour, only to see it explode and come back to them, after infecting the world with their disease. This is the analogous to the computer virus writers. It is the latest sickness affecting us via electronic media.
"Oriental" was and never will be offensive to people from those origins as evidenced by so many North American "Oriental" restaurants and "Oriental" societies named by the very culture themselves.
North Americans, grow a pair and stop being so gullible. Our English laguage has been destroyed by this very technique of people attempting to coin a phrase for world recognition by the "look-at-me" crowd.
"Asian" is not a correct term for this culture of people. Russians are Asian and not "Oriental", as well as are Arabs, Iraelites, Lebanese and Siberians. "North Americans" is likelwise not correct for all "Christians" or "whites" in the world.
Geez people! We have to start ignoring this influx of stupidity to preserve what we have left of our sanities. Just because one person says it and another repeats it does not make it true. I mean look at the people that think the movie hoax "nitro-glycerin" is real or even the biggest one of all... the "Global Warming" scam. 99.251.112.162 ( talk) 04:45, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Under the subheading "Usage of term", "Orientalism" should link to the Wiki article on the book; it currently links to the broader topic. I'd rectify that, but I just don't know how. 72.84.148.120 ( talk) 07:11, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
In the last sentence is it not redundant to say "The only other alternative..." How about just, "The alternative is to refer..." What do you fair people think?
By the way, I live in the US but I spent several months in Afghanistan. Much of my time was spent with British citizens, and they referred to the locals in this Southwest Asian country as Asians. The Brits also referred to some South Korean military officers as Orientals, and there was nothing derogatory about it that I could detect. My ancestors came from Norway, but I certainly do not get upset if someone calls me Scandinavian instead of Norwegian or American! Hildenja ( talk) 16:21, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Forgive me, but the tone of the intro was quite inappropriate for an encyclopedia, so I took the liberty of rewriting it, from:
The "Orient" is a term traditionally used in Western culture to refer to the Middle East, and Egypt resp. the whole Arabian influenced North Africa. Today also the eastern and southeastern Asia is sometimes called "Orient", except Russia, i.e. North Asia. The term "oriental" is considered politically incorrect. It refers to Asians as the people to the east, which makes the person using the term "oriental" declaring himself better than the Asians because he is basing the world around him. This may have been an acceptable term to us a long time ago, but times have changed and we know we are all equal, so the term "oriental" is politically incorrect.
-- Adoniscik ( talk) 20:51, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Originally "Orientals" were Semites. The common Arabic look was known as "Orientalid", and Jews were frequently referred to as "Orientals". "Oriental" meaning "East Asian" is a very modern concept. Something to this effect should be added to the article. I'll look for links... Dr Rgne ( talk) 10:14, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I have edited the part that said the whole Western World uses the term "oriental" to describe a person or artifact of East Asian origin. This is wrong!!!This maybe true for America - but is Wikipedia English only catering Americans? Not!!! The Term oriental refers in most countries to the live style , culture and products of the Middle East, North Africa and sometimes South Asia and even Central Asia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.176.36.176 ( talk) 06:03, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
I added a {{ cleanup}} tag just before the Perceptions and connotations section, with the following reason:
The rest of this article talks exclusively about the uses and perceptions of the term Oriental (and not the Orient) and would be better split into a separate article, interlinked in the See also section. This would improve the mapping of the language interwiki links, since other language wikipedias generally keep the concepts (Orient the noun meaning a vaguely defined region of the Earth; Oriental the adjective meaning of the Orient or of the east) separate. - 84user ( talk) 16:30, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
oriental means arab and bizantine, the usage of word oriental in U.S is wrong. in US, many things are used wrongly such as hispanic which means people from spain kingdom. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.179.82.180 ( talk) 20:44, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
The Derivation section has "The Land of the Rising Sun" to refer to Japan as an example of using "sun/rise" to refer to "east." The fact that Japan is east of China, and thus the sun rises on Japan before China (hence the name), has no reference to the terms for "sun/rising" being analogous with "east." I think it's irrelevant and should be removed, but I'm new here so I don't want to just go and delete something if someone else has a valid argument for its legitimacy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Phoenix 6 ( talk • contribs) 02:36, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
I have updated the section from Remnants of the older conception of the Orient still exist in the English language in such collocations as Oriental studies (now Asian Studies) to Equally valid terms for the Orient still exist in the English language in such collocations as Oriental studies (now Asian Studies in some countries). There is a widespread belief that moving to 'Asian Studies' by some seats of learning in the US and elsewhere was based on political correctness and has nothing to do with definition. My personal belief which is neither here nor there is an attempt by certain elements to Americanize and 'correct' the English language according to some local ideology. Please refer to [ Studies]. Being both British and coming from a very long line of men serving their country in the 'Orient' and having served as a journalist there for over twenty years I have never come across whether anecdotally, through research or in literature the use of 'Orient' to describe India, it is usually applied to Japan, China, Korea and so forth. Twobells ( talk) 11:39, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
"In British English, the term Oriental refers to people from East and Southeast Asia. On the other hand, the word "Asian" refers to people from Indian Subcontinent. Therefore, Orientals is the only term which can refer to people of East Asian origin."
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...is clearly Orient. It's even more orientalic than some countries of Far East, especially the culture of Uzbekistan is like a totally synonym for Orient, than there is Iran...but also Kazakhstan and other countries. This article needs much more perspectives -- 92.196.44.182 ( talk) 16:44, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
I studied German in college and one thing I learned is that the German word for "Austria" is "Österreich". I think this would literally translate as "Eastern Kingdom." Similarly, "Öst" means "East," so it seems to me that there is a likely connection in German due to Austria's easterly(ish) position from (southern) Germany. Finally, the German word for "Easter" is "Öster." Since Easter is a holiday highlighting a kind of rising, not of the sun, but of a person, the fact that "East" is part of the word for "Easter" in German and also a part of the German word for "Austria" leads me to think there is likely a connection between the three terms for "East," "Eastern Kingdom," and "East ... er." (I don't know what the "er" suffix, used in both German and English, indicates. I doubt that it is there because the German word for "he" is "er.")
Since I'm just a database programmer who got a minor in German, I don't have the fluency needed to sort this out, not even with automated translation tools because of the errors and lost nuance that they can cause.
So, native and other fluent German speakers, what do you think about this idea? Should it be considered for inclusion in the etymology section or am I wrong about these ideas? Thanks.
Mma 120.29.117.198 ( talk) 05:08, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
I tried to change this multiple times but oriental is highly derogatory in all forms of English especially in British English.
Yes it is used by small businesses who are unaware of the context but it is also used by the wider population in a unpolitically correct and racist way. A lot of East Asians have been called this in a derogatory way so it is a shame that this page has a pro-oriental sentiment and kinda fuels racism and misinformation.
Many people use Wikipedia to educate themselves on racism and when something like this is incorrect it has real world consequences.
Please could this be changed, the Asian community would really appreciate it.
https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2023-03-22/-Oriental-Is-it-racist--1imahiJ8u0U/index.html Bigbotnot2 ( talk) 15:51, 14 June 2024 (UTC)