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Somebody had pasted a huge whack of irelevant information promoting various bootleg compilations into the article, which I've summarily removed, along with links to unofficial sites. The text still needs copy-editing (which means the tag should stay), but at least it's a start. Gusworld ( talk) 07:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
-- Gazer97 ( talk) 20:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
PPS WHAT DO YOU REGARD irelevant information ?? ENLIGHTEN ME DEAR GO ON... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.231.13 ( talk) 21:47, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
PS i am the girl who has added all the imfo recording japan albums singles promos and video imfo i Did not copy it from any site i did it all my self the videos and cds and art work was all done by me!! i hope you will leave it i am working on getting it better so if you could leave it, it would help ok pet :)
k mc 2008
You said Somebody had pasted a huge whack of irelevant information promoting various bootleg compilations Wrong there 2 songs that are named bootlegs thats the name of the remixes you have no idea what your talking about i own all the recordings all albums i listed are official japan albums i dont buy cheep bootlegs the jap albums are very excpencive and very rare, do not try and say there not official(i should know) i own them!!! k mc 2008
The japan stuff i added are all official albums and all songs and tracks are official and for your information the bootlegs as you call them are official japan only mixes issued on there official albums, the remixes was done without the nolans input but the tracks are real and official, do not remove there a jap album named colourfull nolans that include all there hits remixed by a japan dj is this a bootleg, you donot know the nolans like i do there for stop removing official imfo karen :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.231.13 ( talk) 21:29, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
ok, we are attempting to clean/tidy this a bit. we realise there are guidelines, but leaving out relevant material is worse than having it in in so called unsourced format. karen has tried to include all relevant material, she has all the cds in question, and feels she is being picked on when she does mean well. to see huge chunks just disappear is very worrying and depressing.-- Gazer97 ( talk) 22:23, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Re to the nolans being called the irish fivestar do not make me laugh how dare you talk to me like this you know nothing about the nolans the fact of the matter is the group was called the irish five star i should know i am a major fan i will be removing all the japan imfo you added as its not correct and not true to the cds years or even the names, as you no nothing leave this alone i will be getting a very dear friend to re edit all your work as franky its dire. why do you feel the need to remove info regarding the japan years? and the video bio you did you have dates and song words all wrong franky its dire, i will be removing this i have been a nolans collector the biggest one in the uk for years dont dare try and contradict me How dare you. km c 2007
The reverting over other sections has also made it hard to keep this in line with Wikipedia guidelines. The current section includes the official site for the group, official sites for all members, and a representative fan site. Please don't readd sites that haven't been launched or sites that are no longer operating. (See here for the guidelines.) Gusworld ( talk) 23:49, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
The album titles and release years have been added to the discography, and I've added a couple of references to the band's success in Japan from here to the main body text. It seems to me that this removes the need for the disputed sections 6-8, given the following clearly established policies within Wikipedia:
Given this, it seems clear to me that the sections can be deleted, but I want to flag my intentions here first, given all the recent disputes. I'd really like to get on with rewriting the main body text to be more Wiki-appropriate (with sources, appropriate tone etc.), but want to make sure we have a relatively stable version first. If I've missed other Wiki-appropriate material in these sections, please note that on this talk page and we can work to add it. Gusworld ( talk) 00:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
yes see your note now. well we appreciate things hav to be redone /rewritten,and your help is fine in this, note the point about seperate articles for albums, this is something we will have to consider. as for the video section, we are not happy if its all removed because karen owns all the recordings some impossible to get, and therefore unknown to many and recorded only for tv. -- Gazer97 ( talk) 02:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
how do we go forward with a version suitable to us all , i can rewrite things but if its all going to be removed well theres no point. or are you going to draft something so we can look at and get it right. back to the previous point about what should and should not be in, the tv shows are important in their history as they had songs only ever sung on tv, as that was part of the group appearing on bbc shows, rarely were they issued-- Gazer97 ( talk) 22:53, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I see a bunch of information about the Japanese releases was added under the discography, so I've incorporated this as appropriate. I've added the albums that weren't already in the list to the main discography table. There's no need to repeat the albums in a separate list. I'll note the patterm of the Japanese release activity more specifically in the body text. As has been noted before, promo-only releases aren't suitable for a discography. Material that's purely opinion (such as the Five Star comparison) also isn't suitable; this would not to be sourced (to a reputable publication or critic) to be included. Gusworld ( talk) 20:51, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Re to the nolans being called the irish fivestar do not make me laugh how dare you talk to me like this you know nothing about the nolans the fact of the matter is the group was called the irish five star i should know i am a major fan i will be removing all the japan imfo you added as its not correct and not true to the cds tears or even the names, as you no nothing leave this alone i will be getting a very dear friend to re edit all your work as franky its dire. why do you feel the need to remove info regarding the japan years? and the video bio you did you have dates and song words all wrong franky its dire, i will be removing this i have been a nolans collector the biggest one in the uk for years dont dare try and contradict me How dare you. km c 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.71.65 ( talk) 21:32, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Please note WP:CIVIL -- hurling insults around isn't helpful to anyone. Most of the Japanese information and all of the information on videos has been incorporated based on text you have added, so I'm at a loss to see why you're now claiming it is inaccurate. I've mentioned numerous times that Wikipedia has strict policies on verifiability ( WP:VER), which aren't satisfied by saying "I'm a fan so I know this stuff". And no-one owns this article, so it isn't appropriate to tell other users to cease their involvement. Gusworld ( talk) 21:39, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes that good but seeing you no nothing about the nolans leave it alone why are you removing who was in the group? from 1991 till now the group was very diffrent! i had added who was in it but you removed. stop it i will only keep adding it back so add what you like its wrong and i will remove it as its not appropriate . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.71.65 ( talk) 21:43, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Policy point: further changes by myself, Gazer 97 or 88.111.71.65 (Karen) would violate WP:3RR -- so please hold off any edits until the RFC process kicks in. Gusworld ( talk) 22:01, 28 March 2008 (UT
Yes but you have the wrong information writen down wrong members in band albums recorded buy the new group you have added it all wrong why do you think i added there names to let people know who was apert of the group i will remove the edits as you have it wrong
I will be reporting gustworld as the japan imformation is being removed apanese career and TV appearances is being unfairly deleted; he is only doing so out of beaing nasty and bad i will not let you remove it from some jaill bird.
as u say no one person owns wiki, but surely the person with all the albums and info knows more than someone who has nothing. its people who just take stuff out who need banned, its being taken out for badness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gazer97 ( talk • contribs) 22:22, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Gustworld said :As a regular user of Wikipedia, I figure it's only fair that I contribute as well. In 2008, I'm trying to consciously do some Wikipedia editing each day as a form of community service.
I work as a journalist and editor in Australia, so my corrections tend to either involve fixing grammar and expression problems, adding some global perspective and information to US-centric articles, or tweaking around the edges of pop-culture related articles.
journalist? oh things are looking a little clearer now hahahahaha sad act.
Once again i say you keep your face out of stuff you dont know as it stands you no nothing about the nolans i do and what i say will go edit away but i will remove all your crap so Why dont you take you do gooding goodytwo shoes way and play on some other street corner —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.71.65 ( talk) 22:17, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
But i i have said b4 sweet heart you have it listed totaly wrong dates and years and some of the songs are not even correct i should no yes im gonna remove rubish i own the videos i know the songs and shows , you no nothing so i removed your crap like i said i would. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.71.65 ( talk) 22:31, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Ok love whatever your imput was not wanted or correct anyway i did most of the page and will keep doing so, you no0 nothing about the nolans so please keep out of it :) regards —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.71.65 ( talk) 23:14, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Two editors believe that information on the Nolans' Japanese career and TV appearances is being unfairly deleted; another editor believes that much of this information is irrelevant, contrary to policy or should be incorporated elsewhere well gustworld can start his own nolans page and iv got a good idea what place he could put it gustworld knows nothing about the nolan so his comments are not needed. thanks
Now that things have calmed down a bit, I've done a fairly major edit to the article to try and bring it more in line with Wikipedia standards and make it more coherent, while also addressing the concerns that have become apparent during recent edit wars. This is a good-faith edit; that is, I've assumed the facts presented are correct and worked largely on making the article read better (adding references where appropriate would be the next logical step; I've tagged some of the more obviously contestable claims). Here's the major changes:
There's still a lot of work to be done on the article, particularly in terms of adding references, but this is definitely a start. I fully anticipate that others will make many changes here and further improve the article, but hope this is something we can all build on rather than falling into more revert wars. Gusworld ( talk) 00:32, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Kmc 2008 yes iv put it back to how i had it sorry but your version is crap and lost alot of persional touch, as for the dvds clips yes stupid there from diffrent part of the world stopp editing it i will tell you hear and now i will never let your edit be included as you no nothing about the nolans i will remove it everytime so just leave it along
Add what u like i will remove it everyday as u clearly no nothing about the nolans fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.110.183.132 ( talk) 00:57, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
stop removing my stuff have you no life but as i said i look everyday and will remove anything u ever add kmc u got the line ups all wrong are you simple? u clearly know nothing im removing ur crud
Record company names all wrong, members dates and last names wrong dire . i should know i own the records do not atemp to edit or write as its totaly wrong u got the imfo from fake site that clearly dont know what there talking about kmc —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.110.183.132 ( talk) 01:08, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Firstly i dont want you editing nothing more importantly i will never leave you edit there so what is your point you are clearly crazy you have dates and peoples name all wrong and you added a album that was made up in my mind to the list, that in my book proves once again your way out you league you clearly have no idea who or what the nolans are or about wonder what album you have wrong? ha ha ha you would add anything on a wim sad so sad but please carry on removing stuff coz in a flash i will revert to my edits and remove so much as a dot you put there as to code for the conduct your the guy editing a page when you know nothing about a group. ur not wanted or any of your lies or made up stuff.
see WP:OR Antonio Lopez (talk) 01:28, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
I added the fake album to prove what a mug you really are as to official sites my dear there run by me and my friend if you look on one of there pages iv even added some stuff i posted on wilk so again you are talking crap the noland have loads more record companys than you listed like pickwick dmg tv records and time music international and dynamic records, again you never listed!! why ? well its clearly you have no idea what your talking about if i was writing crap the nolans would not have it on there site. kmc2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.110.183.132 ( talk) 01:32, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Again have the cds and i know better than you all i will say is anything you add will be removed as its been proven time and time again ur adding rubish , you have no idea what ur talking about. edit away i will remove thats a promice please do not go on my site again i will ban ur ip addres from this moment on. kmc 2008 u are not welcome on my nolans site. you have added inproper content to this page and got album names totaly wrong. its rather sad.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.110.183.132 ( talk)
I will address you anyway i please i will talk to you in a proper mannor when you start acting proper as it stands you have added random record companys fake names and got album names all wrong so how can i beleve a word you say? dire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.110.183.132 ( talk)
The following uncited information has been in the article in various forms for quite a while (edited into this form by me but around as a list for rather longer):
Now, I presume that this is referring to the text found on the obi strip. If that's the case, then on reflection I think it's not suitable for Wikipedia, as essentially it represents minor information about record packaging and is thus non-notable. More pertinently for now, it doesn't have a source, so I'm going to remove it from the main article for now -- but am parking it here so if someone can find suitable sources, it might be reintroduced (though probably not in its current form). Gusworld ( talk) 02:41, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Look you the imformation on them being Five Fresh & Fruity Gals' and all the name changes are all over the place on there japan dvd on the japan book song books so it stay how dare you change that u are evil and i am reporting u anyway im reverting back —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.77.129 ( talk) 18:08, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
You have yet to demonstrate a single inaccurate record company name, merely an unsourced claim that other labels could be added to the list. If false information has been inserted into the article because of your own insistence on adding text (very evident early on this talk page), that reflects poorly on you. Some brief research suggests that the fake album name in question is 'Special Projects', which can easily be removed from the discography once this current dispute is resolved. As I have respect for WP:3RR, I'm making no changes now, but you still haven't provided a coherent reason for entirely rejecting my most recent edit. Gusworld (talk) 02:03, 30 March 2008 (UTC wrong there are 7 nolans special projects nolans album and most have 2 or 3 diffrent cover and special versions of the album, Do not talk crap about stuff u dont know about esprit only have half the the nolans cd sop you looking on a site that lists only bits of it? and you say its right grouw up kmc2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.77.129 ( talk) 18:41, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Once again, the article has been summarily reverted to an earlier version and an unsourced personal videography added. As an administrator pointed out here, that version suffered from major formatting problems. Nolans2007, you haven't provided any verifiable sources for the obi strip information, or explained why it is relevant in an encyclopedia article. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Gazer97, you haven't explained why an index of a fan video collection is appropriate content.
The version reverted from contained numerous properly cited references and -- while undoubtedly requiring work, as most articles on Wikipedia do -- is a much better basis to work from, particularly in terms of verifiability and original research policies, so I'm going to restore it. Please sign your posts by including four tildes. Gusworld ( talk) 19:54, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Look u i will print off the cd covers and cds and disc and the press kits i have i am a massive nolans fan i know loads more than the like of you i will prove you wrong i should know how dare you say im not , so your saying everything u read on the net is true? take your rose coloured glasses off and smell the coffee, i will add every nolans japan cd i have you have listed only half when i do i will remove your list as its only half of it kmc2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.77.129 ( talk) 20:45, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
we will accept your stuff is its ok e g any accurate info.but we wont have everything taken out either-- Gazer97 ( talk) 20:50, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
There are loads and loads of nolans uk cd on diffrent record companys re issues re recorded hits i should know i own then dont you dare say its made up you would not know a nolans cd if hit you in the face iv still to add 7 nolans uk cd to the list as it stands i will let you play im in touch with all the uk fans and we are all gonna revert back to my list, as its more intresting than anything you have to say what are you being all goody 2 shoes about i looked on ur info page.. was u a bad boy? remember god is watching —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nolans2007 ( talk • contribs) 21:00, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
See the nolans cds all sold on esprit i own them you can look at covers and so on by i own the cds see smarty see play back part 2? says on the cover 1991 but on the disc 1992 and early versions of play back have diffrent mixes/ or demo versions of the songs, same with playback part 2/ 2004 issue all track by maurean and ann have been rerecorded fact you clearly no nothing about.. or what about new music pops in japan you have it listed but totaly forgot to say about the exclusive track "step into my dream" the track all nolans fans wanna own and talk about, same with rock n rolling idol and xmass pops in japan you have forgot to say that holliday romance 1993 version is a brand new recording! see what im saying you just putting list with no back bone its very very boring and lacks intrest you know nothing about the group nothing same with new best hits you have it listed but then forgot to say the cd includes 5 new nolans tracks??????????? has that slipped your mind crazy..kmc 2008
You are puting list after list but not talking about the content of the cd fans /people wanna know anout special tracks diffrent versions, every versions of the hits all you have listed is boring imfo that we all know, well you cant very well talk about the covers or tracks as you dont own them your removal of the japan song names changes is out of order what are you some sad old man with no life..."shudders" ewwwwwwwwww. kmc2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nolans2007 ( talk • contribs) 21:25, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I hope soon you will find a life :) kmc2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nolans2007 ( talk • contribs) 21:28, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
That is true pet but your boring dead end edits make this look like the last will and testament very boring fact missing no imfo on the new recorded track or the exclusive track and you forget to add that early versions of playback have extra tracks or that any the nolans "special projects" include rare unissued track cant u just go way and edit some other thing you know about godboy kmc2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nolans2007 ( talk • contribs) 21:36, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Can we sorta work together your good at the layouts i have the real fact ....just a thought can you see anyone in the world apart from yourself? are you so far...best not eh lol kmc2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nolans2007 ( talk • contribs) 21:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Ok i will help you with all imformation and fact but i wanna work with you its my dream to have a superb page including all things im talking about and you to a point i cant have stuff removed we can edit it together you can maybe show me how to set it out better, regarding the exciting...... chapter in there music the best years, i had included im in the mood for dancing loads of people ask me and ask the group on tv did you record any your hits in japaniese ? and yes thay did i,m in the mood for dancing was rerecorded especialy for a japan super fan who was on a uk tv show to do a qiz all about the nolans and in the uk there was a 15 minute tv program all about the nolans turning japaniese i i want this imfo incluuded in the page i have even uploaded the video to you tube we could link it here...... this imfo is what the fans want and so do i. kmc2008 i will try and work with you but please do not remove all my stuff its not nice and not on.
There's been no concrete response to my questions or suggestions, and no justification throughout this discussion of how this version meets core Wikipedia policies on formatting, suitable content, verifiability and no original research. So I've returned the article to the version featuring references and conforming more closely to Wikipedia guidelines and generally accepted approaches (note the cleanup tag on the older version), hoping that this can be the basis for further improvements. (As I said above, I realise some minor punctuation and capitalisation changes were made in the interim, but I can't see any extra 'information' added, as this diff shows [2] and I've maintained in this talk page discussion that the material being corrected here is not suitable in that form, being repetitious, frequently POV and unsourced.)
I recognise, though, that there's no consensus yet on how best to move forward with improving this article, so I don't propose to make any further changes until they have been discussed on this talk page and we can reach some kind of consensus.
I really hope that we can agree to work together and enhance this version with additional information, corrections and references, as well as creating any suitable sub-articles to make use of further material, rather than endlessly revisiting the same argument, which essentially boils down to Nolans2007 (backed up by Gazer97) stating her expert Nolans knowledge and me pointing out Wikipedia policies and article conventions violated by the previous versions. That could potentially be a productive combination of knowledge and skills; it's a pity it hasn't been so far.
No-one owns this article, and ongoing changes and discussions are inevitable at Wikipedia, but at present, we're the three editors with a declared interest in working on this article, so we need to find a way to work together. Gusworld ( talk) 22:08, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Can anyone confirm the existence of this as an actual single released in the UK in 1979, and identify the label or catalogue number? It doesn't show up in any prominent second-hard record stores online (I checked GEMM, eBay and EIL), and the only references to the single (as distinct to the TV performance) that I could find through Google are copied from this entry on Wikipedia. I know it's appeared as a bonus track on various releases, but unless there's some definite evidence of the single itself it needs to be removed from the singles discography (the song is already mentioned in the article in the context of the Song for Europe performance). I'd have thought it would be relatively uncommon for a single by a band with (at that stage) no singles chart pedigree to be released for a song that didn't win the Song for Europe round, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. Gusworld ( talk) 20:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
As this article has been locked, it seems that all the furore over editing should be over. However, I don't know whether "Harry" was a single, but I do know that they released several singles before "Spirit Body and Soul". The discography is also lacking in that it doesn't include later singles such as 1985's "Goodbye Nothin' To Say" or the '89 issue of "I'm In The Mood For dancing" (which reached the UK top 100)- so there are a lot of singles missing from the list. Also, is the albums discography accurate? Did all those Japanese 90s albums fail to chart or are they left blank because their positions are unknown? Tuzapicabit ( talk) 17:04, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the suggestions. Yes, there's definitely still gaps in the discography, especially in terms of pre-1979 releases. (I've just hold of some reference material for some of those singles, so they should get added in soon). For quite a while, the discography was headed as 'UK chart singles', which wasn't entirely accurate (Harry and Dressed To Kill were in there for instance), but did explain why some were missing. If the discography gets much bigger, then it may well end up in a separate article, with just the charting singles in the main article, but either way more need to get added. The big challenge is documenting them in a way that's suitable for Wikipedia (one of the edit war problems was over demonstrating that given records actually existed).
Similar problems exist with the Japanese albums. I've not seen any reference to their chart positions, but that's not to say it doesn't exist. Separate tables for UK chart singles and unique (ie all-new material) Japanese albums in the main body, with a separate discography listing all known commercial releases, including the Nevis and Target releases and the many, many compilations, seems a likely step forward, though I want to wait a few more days before making any changes to the article.
Re the 89 re-release -- this is news to me, but it doesn't appear in any chart reference books as having made the UK Top 100 (though the 1995 re-recording did). Any further details? Gusworld ( talk) 22:12, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, just checked it. Sure enough, it reached NO.99. Check out their discography on the Chartstats website - a great site for the UK charts. Although look them up under T not N (ie. THE Nolans) -- 82.0.207.86 ( talk) 22:57, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Still I'm glad to see all that ridiculous info on those videos has gone. -- Tuzapicabit ( talk) 11:52, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
In the course of research, I've discovered that the text [3] on which most recent edits have been based is largely a copy of the Nolans entry in the Encyclopedia of Popular Music. Although many changes and additions have been made, quite a lot of directly copied phrasing survives in the current version, and this obviously needs to be rewritten or removed to avoid a copyvio. (On the upside, the original EPM entry is a good citable source for facts which are so far unsourced).
I still don't want to make any other major structural changes to the entry until further consensus is reached, but I will work on changing the article to eliminate this problem as quickly as possible (hopefully sometime in the next 24 hours), and ask other editors to bear this in mind if making any changes. Gusworld ( talk) 00:52, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry 'bout that, see my talk page for response.-- Tuzapicabit ( talk) 15:23, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
With most of the article now sourced (and tagged for the remaining problem facts), the area that now most urgently needs work is the discography (to add missing singles and albums and add references for the non-charting releases that are in there). However, before adding these in, I'd propose the following new structure for the discography tables, as more informative and consistent with general Wikipedia practice:
Singles: Title, Year, Label, UK chart, Japan chart*, Ireland chart, Australia chart, Japan sales*
Albums: Title, Year, Label, UK chart, Japan chart*, Japan sales*
(Categories tagged * are currently unsourced and may have to be removed eventually, but I'm happy to keep them there for now and continue searching for a source -- I don't think there's a question that they would be relevant if we can source them properly.)
As well as a more logical order, this adds a label column for the singles and makes room for Australian and Irish chart data (the latter easily available online). It eliminates the source album column, but this is already largely covered in the body text (and the two exceptions can easily be incorporated). It eliminates the vocalist column, but this is (1) unsourced (2) very repetitive. Note also that Wikipedia consensus seems to be that discographies aren't supposed to be exhaustive trivia on albums or songs, just the key verifiable facts. (The more successful albums should probably get their own separate articles at some point.)
I've left Australia and Ireland off the albums table as there's no data for the latter and the two charting albums in Australia are already in the body text -- adding an entire column just for those two figures would lead to unwieldiness.
Just putting this out there for suggestions before making the change. Ultimately the discography may end up as a separate article anyway, but this is still a good step towards that. Gusworld ( talk) 03:55, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
The lack of sources for the claimed Japanese sales figures in the discography is very problematic, especially as they are so specific. Getting accurate information on Japanese sales is hard, and what data I can find online conflicts. For instance, the article currently claims (without a source) that "I'm In The Mood For Dancing" has sold 673,850 copies in Japan. The same figure is found in List of best-selling singles in Japan, which does list some general external sources. Of these, however, the only one with an actual Nolans sales number gives a different figure -- 409,250. It's hard for me to assess the reliability of a source page largely in Japanese (it offers lower totals for other artists as well, so it may be using a slightly different source for sales data), but it clearly demonstrates that the numbers can't be taken for granted. (The article text currently cites the book In The Mood For Success which claims 600,000+ sales, which seems an OK interim compromise to me.)
Similarly this site claims the Nolans had three #1 albums in Japan and spent 21 weeks at number one in total on the album charts. No source for the information is listed and there are no title details, so we really can't treat it as more than indicative, but note that we only have one Japanese #1 album listed in the discography.
Also problematic is the much-repeated claim that the Nolans outsold the Beatles with 9 million records sold in Japan. We're never told how many copies the Beatles are meant to have sold by comparison or over what period, and no source for the number's ever been given that I can find.
The total of all the numbers reported here (and again, remember these have no source) is 2.8 million, which is a substantial gap. We might assume the remaining numbers are made up from sales post-1983 -- but then, in this interview Linda quotes a lower number (8 million) but says that was in their first two years of activity in Japan -- more or less the same period covered by the numbers here. In one way, Linda's is a less substantial claim (it allows that the Beatles have probably sold more in Japan by now), but it suggests much higher initial sales than even the current discography numbers claim. In The Mood For Success suggests the Beatles-beating claim only relates to "I'm In The Mood For Dancing", but again doesn't offer a proper basis for the comparison.
The bottom line: can anyone point to any citable resources (perhaps in print) with reliable Japanese sales totals or chart data? In the absence of any extra evidence, my current feeling is that the sales figure column from the discography should certainly be removed, and the chart positions (other than the uncontested #1 status of "I'm In The Mood For Dancing") should probably go too. The current text about the Beatles comparison makes it evident that this is a frequent PR claim rather than a well-documented fact, but could also use some work to reflect the various uncertainties.
Anyway, wanted to raise all this here before making those changes. Thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gusworld ( talk • contribs) 11:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
don't know if i'm doing this right, but thansk for cleaning up the article and removing lots of the fake bootleg stuff. this nolan3008/kmc character, is a really silly little boy. he does this on various popstar websites i vist.
thanks again :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.142.252 ( talk) 11:42, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
It says on here that Colleen joined the group in 1980. How is this possible when she is in the video for 'I'm in the mood for dancing' which was released in 1979? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.130.89.64 ( talk) 16:07, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
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Somebody had pasted a huge whack of irelevant information promoting various bootleg compilations into the article, which I've summarily removed, along with links to unofficial sites. The text still needs copy-editing (which means the tag should stay), but at least it's a start. Gusworld ( talk) 07:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
-- Gazer97 ( talk) 20:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
PPS WHAT DO YOU REGARD irelevant information ?? ENLIGHTEN ME DEAR GO ON... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.231.13 ( talk) 21:47, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
PS i am the girl who has added all the imfo recording japan albums singles promos and video imfo i Did not copy it from any site i did it all my self the videos and cds and art work was all done by me!! i hope you will leave it i am working on getting it better so if you could leave it, it would help ok pet :)
k mc 2008
You said Somebody had pasted a huge whack of irelevant information promoting various bootleg compilations Wrong there 2 songs that are named bootlegs thats the name of the remixes you have no idea what your talking about i own all the recordings all albums i listed are official japan albums i dont buy cheep bootlegs the jap albums are very excpencive and very rare, do not try and say there not official(i should know) i own them!!! k mc 2008
The japan stuff i added are all official albums and all songs and tracks are official and for your information the bootlegs as you call them are official japan only mixes issued on there official albums, the remixes was done without the nolans input but the tracks are real and official, do not remove there a jap album named colourfull nolans that include all there hits remixed by a japan dj is this a bootleg, you donot know the nolans like i do there for stop removing official imfo karen :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.231.13 ( talk) 21:29, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
ok, we are attempting to clean/tidy this a bit. we realise there are guidelines, but leaving out relevant material is worse than having it in in so called unsourced format. karen has tried to include all relevant material, she has all the cds in question, and feels she is being picked on when she does mean well. to see huge chunks just disappear is very worrying and depressing.-- Gazer97 ( talk) 22:23, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Re to the nolans being called the irish fivestar do not make me laugh how dare you talk to me like this you know nothing about the nolans the fact of the matter is the group was called the irish five star i should know i am a major fan i will be removing all the japan imfo you added as its not correct and not true to the cds years or even the names, as you no nothing leave this alone i will be getting a very dear friend to re edit all your work as franky its dire. why do you feel the need to remove info regarding the japan years? and the video bio you did you have dates and song words all wrong franky its dire, i will be removing this i have been a nolans collector the biggest one in the uk for years dont dare try and contradict me How dare you. km c 2007
The reverting over other sections has also made it hard to keep this in line with Wikipedia guidelines. The current section includes the official site for the group, official sites for all members, and a representative fan site. Please don't readd sites that haven't been launched or sites that are no longer operating. (See here for the guidelines.) Gusworld ( talk) 23:49, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
The album titles and release years have been added to the discography, and I've added a couple of references to the band's success in Japan from here to the main body text. It seems to me that this removes the need for the disputed sections 6-8, given the following clearly established policies within Wikipedia:
Given this, it seems clear to me that the sections can be deleted, but I want to flag my intentions here first, given all the recent disputes. I'd really like to get on with rewriting the main body text to be more Wiki-appropriate (with sources, appropriate tone etc.), but want to make sure we have a relatively stable version first. If I've missed other Wiki-appropriate material in these sections, please note that on this talk page and we can work to add it. Gusworld ( talk) 00:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
yes see your note now. well we appreciate things hav to be redone /rewritten,and your help is fine in this, note the point about seperate articles for albums, this is something we will have to consider. as for the video section, we are not happy if its all removed because karen owns all the recordings some impossible to get, and therefore unknown to many and recorded only for tv. -- Gazer97 ( talk) 02:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
how do we go forward with a version suitable to us all , i can rewrite things but if its all going to be removed well theres no point. or are you going to draft something so we can look at and get it right. back to the previous point about what should and should not be in, the tv shows are important in their history as they had songs only ever sung on tv, as that was part of the group appearing on bbc shows, rarely were they issued-- Gazer97 ( talk) 22:53, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I see a bunch of information about the Japanese releases was added under the discography, so I've incorporated this as appropriate. I've added the albums that weren't already in the list to the main discography table. There's no need to repeat the albums in a separate list. I'll note the patterm of the Japanese release activity more specifically in the body text. As has been noted before, promo-only releases aren't suitable for a discography. Material that's purely opinion (such as the Five Star comparison) also isn't suitable; this would not to be sourced (to a reputable publication or critic) to be included. Gusworld ( talk) 20:51, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Re to the nolans being called the irish fivestar do not make me laugh how dare you talk to me like this you know nothing about the nolans the fact of the matter is the group was called the irish five star i should know i am a major fan i will be removing all the japan imfo you added as its not correct and not true to the cds tears or even the names, as you no nothing leave this alone i will be getting a very dear friend to re edit all your work as franky its dire. why do you feel the need to remove info regarding the japan years? and the video bio you did you have dates and song words all wrong franky its dire, i will be removing this i have been a nolans collector the biggest one in the uk for years dont dare try and contradict me How dare you. km c 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.71.65 ( talk) 21:32, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Please note WP:CIVIL -- hurling insults around isn't helpful to anyone. Most of the Japanese information and all of the information on videos has been incorporated based on text you have added, so I'm at a loss to see why you're now claiming it is inaccurate. I've mentioned numerous times that Wikipedia has strict policies on verifiability ( WP:VER), which aren't satisfied by saying "I'm a fan so I know this stuff". And no-one owns this article, so it isn't appropriate to tell other users to cease their involvement. Gusworld ( talk) 21:39, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes that good but seeing you no nothing about the nolans leave it alone why are you removing who was in the group? from 1991 till now the group was very diffrent! i had added who was in it but you removed. stop it i will only keep adding it back so add what you like its wrong and i will remove it as its not appropriate . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.71.65 ( talk) 21:43, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Policy point: further changes by myself, Gazer 97 or 88.111.71.65 (Karen) would violate WP:3RR -- so please hold off any edits until the RFC process kicks in. Gusworld ( talk) 22:01, 28 March 2008 (UT
Yes but you have the wrong information writen down wrong members in band albums recorded buy the new group you have added it all wrong why do you think i added there names to let people know who was apert of the group i will remove the edits as you have it wrong
I will be reporting gustworld as the japan imformation is being removed apanese career and TV appearances is being unfairly deleted; he is only doing so out of beaing nasty and bad i will not let you remove it from some jaill bird.
as u say no one person owns wiki, but surely the person with all the albums and info knows more than someone who has nothing. its people who just take stuff out who need banned, its being taken out for badness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gazer97 ( talk • contribs) 22:22, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Gustworld said :As a regular user of Wikipedia, I figure it's only fair that I contribute as well. In 2008, I'm trying to consciously do some Wikipedia editing each day as a form of community service.
I work as a journalist and editor in Australia, so my corrections tend to either involve fixing grammar and expression problems, adding some global perspective and information to US-centric articles, or tweaking around the edges of pop-culture related articles.
journalist? oh things are looking a little clearer now hahahahaha sad act.
Once again i say you keep your face out of stuff you dont know as it stands you no nothing about the nolans i do and what i say will go edit away but i will remove all your crap so Why dont you take you do gooding goodytwo shoes way and play on some other street corner —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.71.65 ( talk) 22:17, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
But i i have said b4 sweet heart you have it listed totaly wrong dates and years and some of the songs are not even correct i should no yes im gonna remove rubish i own the videos i know the songs and shows , you no nothing so i removed your crap like i said i would. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.71.65 ( talk) 22:31, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Ok love whatever your imput was not wanted or correct anyway i did most of the page and will keep doing so, you no0 nothing about the nolans so please keep out of it :) regards —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.71.65 ( talk) 23:14, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Two editors believe that information on the Nolans' Japanese career and TV appearances is being unfairly deleted; another editor believes that much of this information is irrelevant, contrary to policy or should be incorporated elsewhere well gustworld can start his own nolans page and iv got a good idea what place he could put it gustworld knows nothing about the nolan so his comments are not needed. thanks
Now that things have calmed down a bit, I've done a fairly major edit to the article to try and bring it more in line with Wikipedia standards and make it more coherent, while also addressing the concerns that have become apparent during recent edit wars. This is a good-faith edit; that is, I've assumed the facts presented are correct and worked largely on making the article read better (adding references where appropriate would be the next logical step; I've tagged some of the more obviously contestable claims). Here's the major changes:
There's still a lot of work to be done on the article, particularly in terms of adding references, but this is definitely a start. I fully anticipate that others will make many changes here and further improve the article, but hope this is something we can all build on rather than falling into more revert wars. Gusworld ( talk) 00:32, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Kmc 2008 yes iv put it back to how i had it sorry but your version is crap and lost alot of persional touch, as for the dvds clips yes stupid there from diffrent part of the world stopp editing it i will tell you hear and now i will never let your edit be included as you no nothing about the nolans i will remove it everytime so just leave it along
Add what u like i will remove it everyday as u clearly no nothing about the nolans fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.110.183.132 ( talk) 00:57, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
stop removing my stuff have you no life but as i said i look everyday and will remove anything u ever add kmc u got the line ups all wrong are you simple? u clearly know nothing im removing ur crud
Record company names all wrong, members dates and last names wrong dire . i should know i own the records do not atemp to edit or write as its totaly wrong u got the imfo from fake site that clearly dont know what there talking about kmc —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.110.183.132 ( talk) 01:08, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Firstly i dont want you editing nothing more importantly i will never leave you edit there so what is your point you are clearly crazy you have dates and peoples name all wrong and you added a album that was made up in my mind to the list, that in my book proves once again your way out you league you clearly have no idea who or what the nolans are or about wonder what album you have wrong? ha ha ha you would add anything on a wim sad so sad but please carry on removing stuff coz in a flash i will revert to my edits and remove so much as a dot you put there as to code for the conduct your the guy editing a page when you know nothing about a group. ur not wanted or any of your lies or made up stuff.
see WP:OR Antonio Lopez (talk) 01:28, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
I added the fake album to prove what a mug you really are as to official sites my dear there run by me and my friend if you look on one of there pages iv even added some stuff i posted on wilk so again you are talking crap the noland have loads more record companys than you listed like pickwick dmg tv records and time music international and dynamic records, again you never listed!! why ? well its clearly you have no idea what your talking about if i was writing crap the nolans would not have it on there site. kmc2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.110.183.132 ( talk) 01:32, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Again have the cds and i know better than you all i will say is anything you add will be removed as its been proven time and time again ur adding rubish , you have no idea what ur talking about. edit away i will remove thats a promice please do not go on my site again i will ban ur ip addres from this moment on. kmc 2008 u are not welcome on my nolans site. you have added inproper content to this page and got album names totaly wrong. its rather sad.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.110.183.132 ( talk)
I will address you anyway i please i will talk to you in a proper mannor when you start acting proper as it stands you have added random record companys fake names and got album names all wrong so how can i beleve a word you say? dire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.110.183.132 ( talk)
The following uncited information has been in the article in various forms for quite a while (edited into this form by me but around as a list for rather longer):
Now, I presume that this is referring to the text found on the obi strip. If that's the case, then on reflection I think it's not suitable for Wikipedia, as essentially it represents minor information about record packaging and is thus non-notable. More pertinently for now, it doesn't have a source, so I'm going to remove it from the main article for now -- but am parking it here so if someone can find suitable sources, it might be reintroduced (though probably not in its current form). Gusworld ( talk) 02:41, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Look you the imformation on them being Five Fresh & Fruity Gals' and all the name changes are all over the place on there japan dvd on the japan book song books so it stay how dare you change that u are evil and i am reporting u anyway im reverting back —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.77.129 ( talk) 18:08, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
You have yet to demonstrate a single inaccurate record company name, merely an unsourced claim that other labels could be added to the list. If false information has been inserted into the article because of your own insistence on adding text (very evident early on this talk page), that reflects poorly on you. Some brief research suggests that the fake album name in question is 'Special Projects', which can easily be removed from the discography once this current dispute is resolved. As I have respect for WP:3RR, I'm making no changes now, but you still haven't provided a coherent reason for entirely rejecting my most recent edit. Gusworld (talk) 02:03, 30 March 2008 (UTC wrong there are 7 nolans special projects nolans album and most have 2 or 3 diffrent cover and special versions of the album, Do not talk crap about stuff u dont know about esprit only have half the the nolans cd sop you looking on a site that lists only bits of it? and you say its right grouw up kmc2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.77.129 ( talk) 18:41, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Once again, the article has been summarily reverted to an earlier version and an unsourced personal videography added. As an administrator pointed out here, that version suffered from major formatting problems. Nolans2007, you haven't provided any verifiable sources for the obi strip information, or explained why it is relevant in an encyclopedia article. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Gazer97, you haven't explained why an index of a fan video collection is appropriate content.
The version reverted from contained numerous properly cited references and -- while undoubtedly requiring work, as most articles on Wikipedia do -- is a much better basis to work from, particularly in terms of verifiability and original research policies, so I'm going to restore it. Please sign your posts by including four tildes. Gusworld ( talk) 19:54, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Look u i will print off the cd covers and cds and disc and the press kits i have i am a massive nolans fan i know loads more than the like of you i will prove you wrong i should know how dare you say im not , so your saying everything u read on the net is true? take your rose coloured glasses off and smell the coffee, i will add every nolans japan cd i have you have listed only half when i do i will remove your list as its only half of it kmc2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.77.129 ( talk) 20:45, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
we will accept your stuff is its ok e g any accurate info.but we wont have everything taken out either-- Gazer97 ( talk) 20:50, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
There are loads and loads of nolans uk cd on diffrent record companys re issues re recorded hits i should know i own then dont you dare say its made up you would not know a nolans cd if hit you in the face iv still to add 7 nolans uk cd to the list as it stands i will let you play im in touch with all the uk fans and we are all gonna revert back to my list, as its more intresting than anything you have to say what are you being all goody 2 shoes about i looked on ur info page.. was u a bad boy? remember god is watching —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nolans2007 ( talk • contribs) 21:00, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
See the nolans cds all sold on esprit i own them you can look at covers and so on by i own the cds see smarty see play back part 2? says on the cover 1991 but on the disc 1992 and early versions of play back have diffrent mixes/ or demo versions of the songs, same with playback part 2/ 2004 issue all track by maurean and ann have been rerecorded fact you clearly no nothing about.. or what about new music pops in japan you have it listed but totaly forgot to say about the exclusive track "step into my dream" the track all nolans fans wanna own and talk about, same with rock n rolling idol and xmass pops in japan you have forgot to say that holliday romance 1993 version is a brand new recording! see what im saying you just putting list with no back bone its very very boring and lacks intrest you know nothing about the group nothing same with new best hits you have it listed but then forgot to say the cd includes 5 new nolans tracks??????????? has that slipped your mind crazy..kmc 2008
You are puting list after list but not talking about the content of the cd fans /people wanna know anout special tracks diffrent versions, every versions of the hits all you have listed is boring imfo that we all know, well you cant very well talk about the covers or tracks as you dont own them your removal of the japan song names changes is out of order what are you some sad old man with no life..."shudders" ewwwwwwwwww. kmc2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nolans2007 ( talk • contribs) 21:25, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I hope soon you will find a life :) kmc2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nolans2007 ( talk • contribs) 21:28, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
That is true pet but your boring dead end edits make this look like the last will and testament very boring fact missing no imfo on the new recorded track or the exclusive track and you forget to add that early versions of playback have extra tracks or that any the nolans "special projects" include rare unissued track cant u just go way and edit some other thing you know about godboy kmc2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nolans2007 ( talk • contribs) 21:36, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Can we sorta work together your good at the layouts i have the real fact ....just a thought can you see anyone in the world apart from yourself? are you so far...best not eh lol kmc2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nolans2007 ( talk • contribs) 21:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Ok i will help you with all imformation and fact but i wanna work with you its my dream to have a superb page including all things im talking about and you to a point i cant have stuff removed we can edit it together you can maybe show me how to set it out better, regarding the exciting...... chapter in there music the best years, i had included im in the mood for dancing loads of people ask me and ask the group on tv did you record any your hits in japaniese ? and yes thay did i,m in the mood for dancing was rerecorded especialy for a japan super fan who was on a uk tv show to do a qiz all about the nolans and in the uk there was a 15 minute tv program all about the nolans turning japaniese i i want this imfo incluuded in the page i have even uploaded the video to you tube we could link it here...... this imfo is what the fans want and so do i. kmc2008 i will try and work with you but please do not remove all my stuff its not nice and not on.
There's been no concrete response to my questions or suggestions, and no justification throughout this discussion of how this version meets core Wikipedia policies on formatting, suitable content, verifiability and no original research. So I've returned the article to the version featuring references and conforming more closely to Wikipedia guidelines and generally accepted approaches (note the cleanup tag on the older version), hoping that this can be the basis for further improvements. (As I said above, I realise some minor punctuation and capitalisation changes were made in the interim, but I can't see any extra 'information' added, as this diff shows [2] and I've maintained in this talk page discussion that the material being corrected here is not suitable in that form, being repetitious, frequently POV and unsourced.)
I recognise, though, that there's no consensus yet on how best to move forward with improving this article, so I don't propose to make any further changes until they have been discussed on this talk page and we can reach some kind of consensus.
I really hope that we can agree to work together and enhance this version with additional information, corrections and references, as well as creating any suitable sub-articles to make use of further material, rather than endlessly revisiting the same argument, which essentially boils down to Nolans2007 (backed up by Gazer97) stating her expert Nolans knowledge and me pointing out Wikipedia policies and article conventions violated by the previous versions. That could potentially be a productive combination of knowledge and skills; it's a pity it hasn't been so far.
No-one owns this article, and ongoing changes and discussions are inevitable at Wikipedia, but at present, we're the three editors with a declared interest in working on this article, so we need to find a way to work together. Gusworld ( talk) 22:08, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Can anyone confirm the existence of this as an actual single released in the UK in 1979, and identify the label or catalogue number? It doesn't show up in any prominent second-hard record stores online (I checked GEMM, eBay and EIL), and the only references to the single (as distinct to the TV performance) that I could find through Google are copied from this entry on Wikipedia. I know it's appeared as a bonus track on various releases, but unless there's some definite evidence of the single itself it needs to be removed from the singles discography (the song is already mentioned in the article in the context of the Song for Europe performance). I'd have thought it would be relatively uncommon for a single by a band with (at that stage) no singles chart pedigree to be released for a song that didn't win the Song for Europe round, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. Gusworld ( talk) 20:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
As this article has been locked, it seems that all the furore over editing should be over. However, I don't know whether "Harry" was a single, but I do know that they released several singles before "Spirit Body and Soul". The discography is also lacking in that it doesn't include later singles such as 1985's "Goodbye Nothin' To Say" or the '89 issue of "I'm In The Mood For dancing" (which reached the UK top 100)- so there are a lot of singles missing from the list. Also, is the albums discography accurate? Did all those Japanese 90s albums fail to chart or are they left blank because their positions are unknown? Tuzapicabit ( talk) 17:04, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the suggestions. Yes, there's definitely still gaps in the discography, especially in terms of pre-1979 releases. (I've just hold of some reference material for some of those singles, so they should get added in soon). For quite a while, the discography was headed as 'UK chart singles', which wasn't entirely accurate (Harry and Dressed To Kill were in there for instance), but did explain why some were missing. If the discography gets much bigger, then it may well end up in a separate article, with just the charting singles in the main article, but either way more need to get added. The big challenge is documenting them in a way that's suitable for Wikipedia (one of the edit war problems was over demonstrating that given records actually existed).
Similar problems exist with the Japanese albums. I've not seen any reference to their chart positions, but that's not to say it doesn't exist. Separate tables for UK chart singles and unique (ie all-new material) Japanese albums in the main body, with a separate discography listing all known commercial releases, including the Nevis and Target releases and the many, many compilations, seems a likely step forward, though I want to wait a few more days before making any changes to the article.
Re the 89 re-release -- this is news to me, but it doesn't appear in any chart reference books as having made the UK Top 100 (though the 1995 re-recording did). Any further details? Gusworld ( talk) 22:12, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, just checked it. Sure enough, it reached NO.99. Check out their discography on the Chartstats website - a great site for the UK charts. Although look them up under T not N (ie. THE Nolans) -- 82.0.207.86 ( talk) 22:57, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Still I'm glad to see all that ridiculous info on those videos has gone. -- Tuzapicabit ( talk) 11:52, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
In the course of research, I've discovered that the text [3] on which most recent edits have been based is largely a copy of the Nolans entry in the Encyclopedia of Popular Music. Although many changes and additions have been made, quite a lot of directly copied phrasing survives in the current version, and this obviously needs to be rewritten or removed to avoid a copyvio. (On the upside, the original EPM entry is a good citable source for facts which are so far unsourced).
I still don't want to make any other major structural changes to the entry until further consensus is reached, but I will work on changing the article to eliminate this problem as quickly as possible (hopefully sometime in the next 24 hours), and ask other editors to bear this in mind if making any changes. Gusworld ( talk) 00:52, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry 'bout that, see my talk page for response.-- Tuzapicabit ( talk) 15:23, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
With most of the article now sourced (and tagged for the remaining problem facts), the area that now most urgently needs work is the discography (to add missing singles and albums and add references for the non-charting releases that are in there). However, before adding these in, I'd propose the following new structure for the discography tables, as more informative and consistent with general Wikipedia practice:
Singles: Title, Year, Label, UK chart, Japan chart*, Ireland chart, Australia chart, Japan sales*
Albums: Title, Year, Label, UK chart, Japan chart*, Japan sales*
(Categories tagged * are currently unsourced and may have to be removed eventually, but I'm happy to keep them there for now and continue searching for a source -- I don't think there's a question that they would be relevant if we can source them properly.)
As well as a more logical order, this adds a label column for the singles and makes room for Australian and Irish chart data (the latter easily available online). It eliminates the source album column, but this is already largely covered in the body text (and the two exceptions can easily be incorporated). It eliminates the vocalist column, but this is (1) unsourced (2) very repetitive. Note also that Wikipedia consensus seems to be that discographies aren't supposed to be exhaustive trivia on albums or songs, just the key verifiable facts. (The more successful albums should probably get their own separate articles at some point.)
I've left Australia and Ireland off the albums table as there's no data for the latter and the two charting albums in Australia are already in the body text -- adding an entire column just for those two figures would lead to unwieldiness.
Just putting this out there for suggestions before making the change. Ultimately the discography may end up as a separate article anyway, but this is still a good step towards that. Gusworld ( talk) 03:55, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
The lack of sources for the claimed Japanese sales figures in the discography is very problematic, especially as they are so specific. Getting accurate information on Japanese sales is hard, and what data I can find online conflicts. For instance, the article currently claims (without a source) that "I'm In The Mood For Dancing" has sold 673,850 copies in Japan. The same figure is found in List of best-selling singles in Japan, which does list some general external sources. Of these, however, the only one with an actual Nolans sales number gives a different figure -- 409,250. It's hard for me to assess the reliability of a source page largely in Japanese (it offers lower totals for other artists as well, so it may be using a slightly different source for sales data), but it clearly demonstrates that the numbers can't be taken for granted. (The article text currently cites the book In The Mood For Success which claims 600,000+ sales, which seems an OK interim compromise to me.)
Similarly this site claims the Nolans had three #1 albums in Japan and spent 21 weeks at number one in total on the album charts. No source for the information is listed and there are no title details, so we really can't treat it as more than indicative, but note that we only have one Japanese #1 album listed in the discography.
Also problematic is the much-repeated claim that the Nolans outsold the Beatles with 9 million records sold in Japan. We're never told how many copies the Beatles are meant to have sold by comparison or over what period, and no source for the number's ever been given that I can find.
The total of all the numbers reported here (and again, remember these have no source) is 2.8 million, which is a substantial gap. We might assume the remaining numbers are made up from sales post-1983 -- but then, in this interview Linda quotes a lower number (8 million) but says that was in their first two years of activity in Japan -- more or less the same period covered by the numbers here. In one way, Linda's is a less substantial claim (it allows that the Beatles have probably sold more in Japan by now), but it suggests much higher initial sales than even the current discography numbers claim. In The Mood For Success suggests the Beatles-beating claim only relates to "I'm In The Mood For Dancing", but again doesn't offer a proper basis for the comparison.
The bottom line: can anyone point to any citable resources (perhaps in print) with reliable Japanese sales totals or chart data? In the absence of any extra evidence, my current feeling is that the sales figure column from the discography should certainly be removed, and the chart positions (other than the uncontested #1 status of "I'm In The Mood For Dancing") should probably go too. The current text about the Beatles comparison makes it evident that this is a frequent PR claim rather than a well-documented fact, but could also use some work to reflect the various uncertainties.
Anyway, wanted to raise all this here before making those changes. Thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gusworld ( talk • contribs) 11:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
don't know if i'm doing this right, but thansk for cleaning up the article and removing lots of the fake bootleg stuff. this nolan3008/kmc character, is a really silly little boy. he does this on various popstar websites i vist.
thanks again :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.142.252 ( talk) 11:42, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
It says on here that Colleen joined the group in 1980. How is this possible when she is in the video for 'I'm in the mood for dancing' which was released in 1979? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.130.89.64 ( talk) 16:07, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
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