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Archive 1 |
The article is a mess; it lacks proper references for much of the content, it's written in appalling English (though the version to which an anon keeps trying to return is even worse), and is a dreadful advertisement for Wikipedia. The organisation looks as though it deserves a couple of paragraphs as a local student society of little interest to anyone except its young members. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 10:09, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Quarrel with the English all you like, but don’t revert an article on a subject you have no knowledge of. Perhaps if you read the version you are reverting to, you would notice that although it is indeed shorter, there is language inserted that is deliberately belittling the organization. Allow the expanded version to be edited instead of replacing it with a butcher job done by someone with a vendetta against the group.
As a certified teacher of English and former newswriter, I don't believe the NoZe Brotherhood article needs copy editing. It is noticeably lacking, at least among Wikipedia articles, in spelling and grammar errors. The copyediting tag mentions other factors such as usage, tone, style, and voice, but the page to which the tag is linked makes no mention of these factors. I have never attended Baylor (except for one memorable weekend in 1989) but declare myself eminently qualified to pass judgment as I have read most of an entire issue of "The Rope." The article's tone and style reflects the lighthearted, irreverently reverent (or vice-versa) nature of the Brotherhood itself. As such, it is inherently appropriate to portray the essence of the NoZe Brotherhood to Wikipedians and innocent readers worldwide. Applejuicefool 07:48, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
It does reflect on their style of writing, and as for fact checking, the part about requiring a 4.0 is in fact untrue, and I'll take claim to removing that one. Still, this version isn't as bad as some of the older versions. Also the millard filmord ball i belive began this past fall, or at least i've never seen it mentioned in the Rope untill this year. If anyone wants to really dispute the groups existance /notariety or otherwise their website and the Baylor Library has decades of papers in their archives.
CComputer 20:25, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I wonder if the topic “Ornery brothers” should be in this article since this is merely a list of names of people that the group wants to associate with their name. Would not a list of real members or no list at all be more appropriate? 15:09 GMT, 15 March 2006
Naming Ornery brothers is a tradition, much like what the Hasty Pudding Theatricals do. It is a valid part of the history of the group, and should be recorded. 161.40.19.101 13:08, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm the Anon who has been changing the main page back to its original splendor. Mr. Ettis, I'm sure you believe your English to be superior, but it is dry, stilted and awkward. More importantly, the changes you've made have made the page untrue. If you had knowledge of the group, it would be fitting that you edit the page, but since you seem to have none, you should leave it to those who do.
Mel, with all due respect, please stop editing the entry as you have no personal knowledge of the group. I'm certain that your editing prowess is appreciated in other entries, but your edits have left gaps in information and several things are untrue. For one, the group was not "supposedly founded by Leonard Shoaf". He was the first president. The group was formed by his friends. And frankly, the sentence proclaiming that they made fun of his nose ",annoying him" is extremely poorly written - awkward and stilted. Plus, it's a Secret society which is an important part of the introduction. We will try to muddle along up to your standards, but please leave the entry alone. If you have suggestions, please vocalize them through this talkback board instead of changing the page again to make it untrue. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.155.30.128 ( talk • contribs) 05:32, 3 April 2006
Mel, removing content can be just as bad as adding, especially when you know nothing about the group. I find your grammar stilted and awkward. I'm sure that's just a style problem, and I understand that it's objective, but your introduction sounds awkward. The society is a secret society because its members identities are secret. This is different than, say, the Masons or Order of the Arrow which are technically "organizations that have secrets". The NoZe is a true secret society in every sense of the definition: "A secret society is an organization that requires its members to conceal certain activities—such as rites of initiation —from outsiders. Members may be required to conceal or deny their membership, and are often sworn to hold the society's secrets by an oath." This is directly from wikipedia itself and you can read more about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_societies.
In fact, the NoZe is even listed on that wikipage as a secret society. Hopefully, that should appease you.
I'm not trying to take ownership of the article, but shouldn't it make sense that someone with at least a little knowledge of the group edit the informational page about them in an encyclopedia? And on that same note, I'll appreciate you allowing other editors to change the page as well without complaint. Thank you. 24.162.123.121 17:54, 11 April 2006 (UTC)BaylorFan
Oh, Mel. You wonderful editing man. There is a big difference between a society -
1.
1. The totality of social relationships among humans. 2. A group of humans broadly distinguished from other groups by mutual interests, participation in characteristic relationships, shared institutions, and a common culture. 3. The institutions and culture of a distinct self-perpetuating group. 2. An organization or association of persons engaged in a common profession, activity, or interest: a folklore society; a society of bird watchers. 3. 1. The rich, privileged, and fashionable social class. 2. The socially dominant members of a community. 4. Companionship; company: enjoys the society of friends and family members. 5. Biology. A colony or community of organisms, usually of the same species: an insect society.
(That's from Dictionary.com, but I'm sure you can nail it down in any other dictionary.)
and a secret society - Any of various oath-bound societies devoted to brotherhood (or sisterhood), moral discipline, and mutual assistance. Such societies usually conduct rituals of initiation to instruct new members in the rules of the group (see rite of passage). (That's from the encyclopedia Brittanica. It continues: http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article-9378133?query=society&ct=) Please accept these as proof of the need for the word "secret" in front of "society" when it comes to things NoZe. It's not an ambiguous adjective. It is a distinctive characterstic. 24.162.123.121BaylorFan
Mel, yes their grammer is horrible, and it reflects on the poor grammer that is in their publication (the rope). As for them being a secret society, there is enough proof (and being a current student at Baylor) i will aggree is quite verifiable with one simple call to Baylor's PR department (or articles published by the school's offical news sources). CComputer 20:35, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Mel, will you please stop editing a wikipedia page that you have no knowledge of?? We understand that you have many "awards" for your "editing" prowess on other wikipedia pages, but your "skills" are not needed here. The fact that you are trying to change information about a subject that you have little to no knowledge about brings back memories of Donny, RIP from the Big Lebowski...clearly you are out of your element. If you honestly don't believe that the NoZe is a secret society, then you need to go back to the drawing board and do a little research before you decide to hack and slash away at any other page that you aren't the originator of. 129.109.128.61 18:56, 3 May 2006 (UTC)concerned conundrum
I wonder if the topic “Ornery brothers” should be in this article since this is merely a list of names of people that the group wants to associate with their name. Some of these people apparently have no idea that their name is being used in connection with this group. Should Wikipedia editors have permission from the living people listed here before they are thrown in with this group? Would not a list of real members or no list at all be more appropriate? 21:29, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
The questions of whether the group is a "secret society" or not shouldn't really be an issue. There is ample evidence that they are, and I would hope that the continuous reverts of the word "secret" will stop.
The accepted definition of a secret society is something like this: "An organization, such as a lodge, that requires its members to conceal certain activities, such as its rites of initiation, from outsiders." There is plenty of evidence to suggest that the group meets this definition. I've added a reference that should put this to rest. 161.40.22.50 14:48, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
It appears as though the problem hasn't gone away since the page keeps getting edited. Here is the full article from the encyclopedia Brittanica that I linked to. Mel, I'm not sure what you would consider proof of the existence of the term "secret society" other than an encyclopedia, the widespread knowledge of the term, and the long list of groups that fit the bill. I'm also not sure if you read the link in the first place before commenting that it doesn't define "secret society" since that pretty much all it does.
Secret Society -
Any of various oath-bound societies devoted to brotherhood (or sisterhood), moral discipline, and mutual assistance.
Such societies usually conduct rituals of initiation to instruct new members in the rules of the group (see rite of passage). Greek and Roman mystery religions had their secular counterparts in clandestine social clubs, some of which served as platforms for political dissent. In West Africa secret societies such as Poro (for men) and Sande (for women) serve to translate slight advantages of wealth and prestige into political authority. In parts of New Guinea secret men's societies serve as repositories of tribal knowledge. Fraternal orders such as the Freemasons (see Freemasonry) may be considered secret societies, as may criminal groups such as the Mafia and the Chinese Triads and hate groups such as the Ku Klux Klan.
The NoZe Brotherhood is a group that not only hides its rituals and inner workings, but also its members. They don disguises to hide their identities so that campus figures will not know who they are.
Also, I know we can't be sure that it is Mel who keeps removing the word "secret" from the page, so my apologies if it isn't.
Mel, I'm glad that you feel the need to let the reader make up his or her own mind. However, there is a well-established definition of what a secret society is -- found in several encyclopedias and in the general knowledge of the populous. So why not let the reader make up her mind? Because it's not a point up for debate (despite your best efforts to make it so). The group's membership is secret. The entrance rituals and requirements are secret. As a Baylor student, I can tell you that they keep their identities and inner workings secret as to avoid ramifications from authority figures. I also take offense to your jumping to the conclusion that all editing the piece beside you are affiliated with the group. I am not, but I would like to see some truth on the page.
Let me ask this: is it that you don't believe that such a thing as a "secret society" exists? or do you not understand the definition? There is ample proof on this page of the definition of a secret society and how this particular group fits into that definition. Is the membership a secret? Yes. Are rituals kept secret? Yes. By definition, this group is a secret society. You said earlier that the page contained past members. Where? The honorary members are listed, but they are not members who went through the initiation process and were sworn to the secrecy of rites of passage or personal identity.
Here's an illustration to further answer your question of why not to just describe the group and let the reader make up her mind. Removing the term "secret society" from this page and allowing the reader to gauge whatever level of secrecy the group has would be a misrepresentation of the group (since it is, by definition, a secret society), and would certainly be a discredit to the reader. This would be like taking one of your pages, let's say the page on Jimmy Blanton, and removing the fact that he was a double-bassist. We could simply remove that, describe the man and his music, and let the reader decide which instrument he played. Whether you understand or are ignorant of the term is irrelevant. This group fits the definition of a secret society.
Here's a simple logical proof to show this:
a = b if and only if a has qualities x and y. a has qualities x and y. therefore, a = b.
Noze = secret society if it has the qualities of secret membership and secret rites of passage. Noze has qualities of secret membership and secret rites of passage. therefore, Noze = secret society.
I'm hoping this is all getting through to you and whoever else reads this page. You seem to think that this talkback is all group members anonymously posting in order to further the group's noteriety. How about assuming, for a change, that it might be people aware of the group's existence who want to accurately represent them? Is that so crazy? That people involved in an encyclopedia might want it to be accurate? I believe that I have thoroughly shown proof that this group is a secret society while you have done nothing but erase the page and expressed personal disdain.
Also, just as a side note, groups and organizations are not commonly referred to as "societies". This may be a difference between the United States and Britain, but when referring to a grouping of people who meet regularly for a common interest, the term society would never be used. 'Society' is usually only used when referring to people of the upper class or of a much larger group of people who share a same nationality or country. The term secret society is a specific term which applies for this particular group, but even if you insist on removing the word "secret" for no reason, please do not leave it as "the Noze is a society at Baylor" because that would be false or at least confusing.
I'm sure you'll respond in your regular fashion. 67.9.88.144 09:02, 6 May 2006 (UTC)Cole Abaius
Since you are looking up definitions in the "American Heritage Dictionary," then why dont you check this one out about "Secret Society."
[2]. Everything in that definition fits the definition of the group...if you can find something with the definition being at odds with the group, then by all means, bring it up so we can talk about. As far as i'm concerned, the definition is pretty straight forward. The NoZe Brotherhood is an organization which requires its members to conceal certain activities from those of us who aren't involved with them....which is obvious that they do. Not only this, they also go to far measures to conceal their identities and affiliation with the group among those who aren't in the group. Like i said before, look at the Freemasons and Shriners who do the same thing. There are texts written about the groups in great detail about many rites and initiations and identities, yet in the end, 99.9% of people will still consider them a secret society. There is no debate about that, yet for some reason you continue to try and make it so. Perilous Pauper
Thank you, Mel. I appreciate going to other editors. I didn't mean for the tone of my post to be sarcastic or patronising. I was just frustrated at something that seems so obvious and the difficult in showing that to you. Obviously you're an intelligent man and have the best interest of the site and its readers in mind. Sorry for anything which seemed personal. I can assure you it isn't.
64.194.97.35 07:28, 7 May 2006 (UTC)Cole Abaius
Mel, I keep noticing your constant revisions to the term "student society" from "secret society." What happened to bringing in new editors to look at this wiki page?? or was that just a ploy to hope people would stop reading this?? I dont know how it is that you don't understand the difference between student society and secret society...they are not exclusive terms, yet for some reason you find them to be so. The others on this board have shown evidence that points that the NoZe is a secret society, yet you have shown nothing to prove the opposite...yet, you still believe that its ok to switch it to a student society. I don't understand your editing and how you would consider it an improvement when in fact you are serving a huge diservice to all those who view this page by not telling the truth. Why not reason (with hard solid evidence, proof, facts, truth) with me, and the rest of the people here, as to why you think it should be one way and not the other. I would love to know and show you how you are wrong. Thanks
Coming from RfC. As an outside editor with no personal knowledge of the topic, I would say that the Brotherhood obviously qualifies as a "secret society", albeit one with a absurdist bent. I would suggest changing the text to "collegiate secret society", linking it to List of collegiate secret societies. The qualifier "collegiate" helps distinguish it from more ... mature ... secret societies such as the Freemasons. Beyond that, the article would benefit from further elaboration on their current activities -- it says they started because of some guy's nose, and continued as only "slightly irreverent", but gives no indication of whether they still are irreverent, and if so, whether more or less so than in their early years. Powers 12:42, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree that "student society" isn't suffiicient — that's why the rest of the article exists. What about the argument that I give at 1.? (With reference to the argument offered by the unsigned anon, above, the notion that any group at a university must be assumed to be a student group is peculiar.) -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 11:50, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Powers, thank you for your insight into the situation. Its good to see another outside source/editor who agrees with the majority of those who have viewed this page as well as understood the basis for the idea of being a secret society. As for the current activities, some of them were pasted on earlier versions of the page but have since then been removed by Mel because they apparently do not conform to his writing/editing style. Much of what was originally posted was removed without the original authors consent or notice.
Again, the article was taken to RfC, and the one respondent suggested replacing "secret society" with "collegiate secret society", with a link to the relevant list. I've edited the article in line with that compromise, and my edit is still being reverted (along with the removal of the hyperbolic "unique" to describe the writing style of the club's newspaper). All the talk about my being determined to get my own way looks pretty silly in context; I've accepted the compromise, the other side hasn't. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 08:48, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I posted this conflict to the mediation cabal. Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2006-05-17_The_NoZe_Brotherhood Cjosefy 14:09, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to bring up the subject of Verification and Copy Editing considering there are two banners at the head of this page that deal with that, yet there has been no recent talk about this subject at all. I don't understand the reason for why these banners are in place. I've seen the initial workings of this page through the history section and understand the initial basis for why the banners were placed up there, but shouldn't it be time to remove them. There are a number of footnotes that link to active webpages in decent to reputable publications (Lariat, Baylor Magazine, Texas Monthly, Dallas Morning News, etc), as well as a well published book "The Nose Brotherhood Knows," that i believe has entered its second edition (I'm not positive about this one). I believe this qualifies as acceptable verification as has been explained in Wikipedia's Verifiability page which states "This policy in a nutshell: Information on Wikipedia must be reliable. Facts, viewpoints, theories, and arguments may only be included in articles if they have already been published by reliable and reputable sources. Articles should cite these sources whenever possible. Any unsourced material may be challenged and removed." If there is no contest, then i believe it is time to remove that banner.
As for the second banner concerning copy editing, i believe it is also time to remove this banner. Reading over some of the differences in the talk section, it seems that there are a number of disagreements as to what has and what should be removed or added. As stated in Wiki's How to copy edit the following is stated concerning Etiquette
Since copy-editing only includes differences in spelling, grammar, punctuation, tone, style, and voice and since "copy-editing comes from organizations that deal with printed media; [whereas] it is loosely applied here," and since there has been little no no major change within the spelling/grammar/punctuation/tone/style/voice of this page within the past couple of months, i saw its time to remove that banner as well.
If you have any objections to the removal of them, please bring your concerns up and we can talk about them before action is taken. If nothing is said, then i will remove them.
The article includes a great deal of poor writing, ranging from overblown style to inconsistent syntax (for example, the society is sometimes treated as singular, sometimes as plural). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mel Etitis ( talk • contribs) .
Well, as it seems that there are no other comments regarding this issue, i'm only to correctly assume that this is a non issue and warrants the removal of the tags.--IronChefSakai
This article should be nominated for a most improved award. It is not perfect yet but is much improved over where it started last year. It is no longer an embarrassment to the encyclopedia but could be used as an example of what a number of people working together can produce. 216.188.239.97 02:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Once again, a banner calling into question the tone of the article has popped up without so much as a word on the discussion page. If whoever placed it there would like to speak up and have his or her issues heard, that would acceptable, but for the time being, I'm going to remove it until actual discussion on the tone has taken place. 66.7.32.10 18:46, 19 July 2007 (UTC)BaylorFan
Thank you, Chris. Instead of removing inappropriate statements, as defined by you, why not raise specific issues on this talkback to gain a better consensus? I ask this only because I've seen the history of this page, and it is full of edits that took place back and forth between two differing entities. This led to the Cabal.
This is the first that the article has been called into question since then, although a ton of great work was done to take it from it's original, horrid state to the state it's in now. Not to say that more can't be done, but I believe it will be accomplished more smoothly if done out in the open. 66.7.32.10 20:37, 26 July 2007 (UTC)BaylorFan
I removed the banner that was calling into question the tone of the article due to a lack of reasoning for why it was placed there in the first place. Whomever placed it there did not have sufficient enough reason as to why it should be there, nor did they adequately state as to why it should remain there. As stated before, the article has been relatively free of vandalism and free of any abnormal tone or style issues. Please leave the article as is unless you have something constructive to add...and then do so on the discussion board prior to changing anything. Thanks --IronChefSakai
The latest issue of GQ magazine claims that Rand Paul was a member. Everard Proudfoot ( talk) 21:34, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
The link provided under this "prank" doesn't lead to a current article. In the absence of any context, I am guessing the prank is the claim they killed Herb Reynolds. Pawsplay ( talk) 03:48, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
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The Noble NoZe Brotherhood has been disbanded over allegations that one of the members was pregnant. The girl was also dating another guy so now they are in a big legal mess about who's the parents baby will be. Please delete this whole article until the the trials are over.
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The article is a mess; it lacks proper references for much of the content, it's written in appalling English (though the version to which an anon keeps trying to return is even worse), and is a dreadful advertisement for Wikipedia. The organisation looks as though it deserves a couple of paragraphs as a local student society of little interest to anyone except its young members. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 10:09, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Quarrel with the English all you like, but don’t revert an article on a subject you have no knowledge of. Perhaps if you read the version you are reverting to, you would notice that although it is indeed shorter, there is language inserted that is deliberately belittling the organization. Allow the expanded version to be edited instead of replacing it with a butcher job done by someone with a vendetta against the group.
As a certified teacher of English and former newswriter, I don't believe the NoZe Brotherhood article needs copy editing. It is noticeably lacking, at least among Wikipedia articles, in spelling and grammar errors. The copyediting tag mentions other factors such as usage, tone, style, and voice, but the page to which the tag is linked makes no mention of these factors. I have never attended Baylor (except for one memorable weekend in 1989) but declare myself eminently qualified to pass judgment as I have read most of an entire issue of "The Rope." The article's tone and style reflects the lighthearted, irreverently reverent (or vice-versa) nature of the Brotherhood itself. As such, it is inherently appropriate to portray the essence of the NoZe Brotherhood to Wikipedians and innocent readers worldwide. Applejuicefool 07:48, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
It does reflect on their style of writing, and as for fact checking, the part about requiring a 4.0 is in fact untrue, and I'll take claim to removing that one. Still, this version isn't as bad as some of the older versions. Also the millard filmord ball i belive began this past fall, or at least i've never seen it mentioned in the Rope untill this year. If anyone wants to really dispute the groups existance /notariety or otherwise their website and the Baylor Library has decades of papers in their archives.
CComputer 20:25, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I wonder if the topic “Ornery brothers” should be in this article since this is merely a list of names of people that the group wants to associate with their name. Would not a list of real members or no list at all be more appropriate? 15:09 GMT, 15 March 2006
Naming Ornery brothers is a tradition, much like what the Hasty Pudding Theatricals do. It is a valid part of the history of the group, and should be recorded. 161.40.19.101 13:08, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm the Anon who has been changing the main page back to its original splendor. Mr. Ettis, I'm sure you believe your English to be superior, but it is dry, stilted and awkward. More importantly, the changes you've made have made the page untrue. If you had knowledge of the group, it would be fitting that you edit the page, but since you seem to have none, you should leave it to those who do.
Mel, with all due respect, please stop editing the entry as you have no personal knowledge of the group. I'm certain that your editing prowess is appreciated in other entries, but your edits have left gaps in information and several things are untrue. For one, the group was not "supposedly founded by Leonard Shoaf". He was the first president. The group was formed by his friends. And frankly, the sentence proclaiming that they made fun of his nose ",annoying him" is extremely poorly written - awkward and stilted. Plus, it's a Secret society which is an important part of the introduction. We will try to muddle along up to your standards, but please leave the entry alone. If you have suggestions, please vocalize them through this talkback board instead of changing the page again to make it untrue. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.155.30.128 ( talk • contribs) 05:32, 3 April 2006
Mel, removing content can be just as bad as adding, especially when you know nothing about the group. I find your grammar stilted and awkward. I'm sure that's just a style problem, and I understand that it's objective, but your introduction sounds awkward. The society is a secret society because its members identities are secret. This is different than, say, the Masons or Order of the Arrow which are technically "organizations that have secrets". The NoZe is a true secret society in every sense of the definition: "A secret society is an organization that requires its members to conceal certain activities—such as rites of initiation —from outsiders. Members may be required to conceal or deny their membership, and are often sworn to hold the society's secrets by an oath." This is directly from wikipedia itself and you can read more about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_societies.
In fact, the NoZe is even listed on that wikipage as a secret society. Hopefully, that should appease you.
I'm not trying to take ownership of the article, but shouldn't it make sense that someone with at least a little knowledge of the group edit the informational page about them in an encyclopedia? And on that same note, I'll appreciate you allowing other editors to change the page as well without complaint. Thank you. 24.162.123.121 17:54, 11 April 2006 (UTC)BaylorFan
Oh, Mel. You wonderful editing man. There is a big difference between a society -
1.
1. The totality of social relationships among humans. 2. A group of humans broadly distinguished from other groups by mutual interests, participation in characteristic relationships, shared institutions, and a common culture. 3. The institutions and culture of a distinct self-perpetuating group. 2. An organization or association of persons engaged in a common profession, activity, or interest: a folklore society; a society of bird watchers. 3. 1. The rich, privileged, and fashionable social class. 2. The socially dominant members of a community. 4. Companionship; company: enjoys the society of friends and family members. 5. Biology. A colony or community of organisms, usually of the same species: an insect society.
(That's from Dictionary.com, but I'm sure you can nail it down in any other dictionary.)
and a secret society - Any of various oath-bound societies devoted to brotherhood (or sisterhood), moral discipline, and mutual assistance. Such societies usually conduct rituals of initiation to instruct new members in the rules of the group (see rite of passage). (That's from the encyclopedia Brittanica. It continues: http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article-9378133?query=society&ct=) Please accept these as proof of the need for the word "secret" in front of "society" when it comes to things NoZe. It's not an ambiguous adjective. It is a distinctive characterstic. 24.162.123.121BaylorFan
Mel, yes their grammer is horrible, and it reflects on the poor grammer that is in their publication (the rope). As for them being a secret society, there is enough proof (and being a current student at Baylor) i will aggree is quite verifiable with one simple call to Baylor's PR department (or articles published by the school's offical news sources). CComputer 20:35, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Mel, will you please stop editing a wikipedia page that you have no knowledge of?? We understand that you have many "awards" for your "editing" prowess on other wikipedia pages, but your "skills" are not needed here. The fact that you are trying to change information about a subject that you have little to no knowledge about brings back memories of Donny, RIP from the Big Lebowski...clearly you are out of your element. If you honestly don't believe that the NoZe is a secret society, then you need to go back to the drawing board and do a little research before you decide to hack and slash away at any other page that you aren't the originator of. 129.109.128.61 18:56, 3 May 2006 (UTC)concerned conundrum
I wonder if the topic “Ornery brothers” should be in this article since this is merely a list of names of people that the group wants to associate with their name. Some of these people apparently have no idea that their name is being used in connection with this group. Should Wikipedia editors have permission from the living people listed here before they are thrown in with this group? Would not a list of real members or no list at all be more appropriate? 21:29, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
The questions of whether the group is a "secret society" or not shouldn't really be an issue. There is ample evidence that they are, and I would hope that the continuous reverts of the word "secret" will stop.
The accepted definition of a secret society is something like this: "An organization, such as a lodge, that requires its members to conceal certain activities, such as its rites of initiation, from outsiders." There is plenty of evidence to suggest that the group meets this definition. I've added a reference that should put this to rest. 161.40.22.50 14:48, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
It appears as though the problem hasn't gone away since the page keeps getting edited. Here is the full article from the encyclopedia Brittanica that I linked to. Mel, I'm not sure what you would consider proof of the existence of the term "secret society" other than an encyclopedia, the widespread knowledge of the term, and the long list of groups that fit the bill. I'm also not sure if you read the link in the first place before commenting that it doesn't define "secret society" since that pretty much all it does.
Secret Society -
Any of various oath-bound societies devoted to brotherhood (or sisterhood), moral discipline, and mutual assistance.
Such societies usually conduct rituals of initiation to instruct new members in the rules of the group (see rite of passage). Greek and Roman mystery religions had their secular counterparts in clandestine social clubs, some of which served as platforms for political dissent. In West Africa secret societies such as Poro (for men) and Sande (for women) serve to translate slight advantages of wealth and prestige into political authority. In parts of New Guinea secret men's societies serve as repositories of tribal knowledge. Fraternal orders such as the Freemasons (see Freemasonry) may be considered secret societies, as may criminal groups such as the Mafia and the Chinese Triads and hate groups such as the Ku Klux Klan.
The NoZe Brotherhood is a group that not only hides its rituals and inner workings, but also its members. They don disguises to hide their identities so that campus figures will not know who they are.
Also, I know we can't be sure that it is Mel who keeps removing the word "secret" from the page, so my apologies if it isn't.
Mel, I'm glad that you feel the need to let the reader make up his or her own mind. However, there is a well-established definition of what a secret society is -- found in several encyclopedias and in the general knowledge of the populous. So why not let the reader make up her mind? Because it's not a point up for debate (despite your best efforts to make it so). The group's membership is secret. The entrance rituals and requirements are secret. As a Baylor student, I can tell you that they keep their identities and inner workings secret as to avoid ramifications from authority figures. I also take offense to your jumping to the conclusion that all editing the piece beside you are affiliated with the group. I am not, but I would like to see some truth on the page.
Let me ask this: is it that you don't believe that such a thing as a "secret society" exists? or do you not understand the definition? There is ample proof on this page of the definition of a secret society and how this particular group fits into that definition. Is the membership a secret? Yes. Are rituals kept secret? Yes. By definition, this group is a secret society. You said earlier that the page contained past members. Where? The honorary members are listed, but they are not members who went through the initiation process and were sworn to the secrecy of rites of passage or personal identity.
Here's an illustration to further answer your question of why not to just describe the group and let the reader make up her mind. Removing the term "secret society" from this page and allowing the reader to gauge whatever level of secrecy the group has would be a misrepresentation of the group (since it is, by definition, a secret society), and would certainly be a discredit to the reader. This would be like taking one of your pages, let's say the page on Jimmy Blanton, and removing the fact that he was a double-bassist. We could simply remove that, describe the man and his music, and let the reader decide which instrument he played. Whether you understand or are ignorant of the term is irrelevant. This group fits the definition of a secret society.
Here's a simple logical proof to show this:
a = b if and only if a has qualities x and y. a has qualities x and y. therefore, a = b.
Noze = secret society if it has the qualities of secret membership and secret rites of passage. Noze has qualities of secret membership and secret rites of passage. therefore, Noze = secret society.
I'm hoping this is all getting through to you and whoever else reads this page. You seem to think that this talkback is all group members anonymously posting in order to further the group's noteriety. How about assuming, for a change, that it might be people aware of the group's existence who want to accurately represent them? Is that so crazy? That people involved in an encyclopedia might want it to be accurate? I believe that I have thoroughly shown proof that this group is a secret society while you have done nothing but erase the page and expressed personal disdain.
Also, just as a side note, groups and organizations are not commonly referred to as "societies". This may be a difference between the United States and Britain, but when referring to a grouping of people who meet regularly for a common interest, the term society would never be used. 'Society' is usually only used when referring to people of the upper class or of a much larger group of people who share a same nationality or country. The term secret society is a specific term which applies for this particular group, but even if you insist on removing the word "secret" for no reason, please do not leave it as "the Noze is a society at Baylor" because that would be false or at least confusing.
I'm sure you'll respond in your regular fashion. 67.9.88.144 09:02, 6 May 2006 (UTC)Cole Abaius
Since you are looking up definitions in the "American Heritage Dictionary," then why dont you check this one out about "Secret Society."
[2]. Everything in that definition fits the definition of the group...if you can find something with the definition being at odds with the group, then by all means, bring it up so we can talk about. As far as i'm concerned, the definition is pretty straight forward. The NoZe Brotherhood is an organization which requires its members to conceal certain activities from those of us who aren't involved with them....which is obvious that they do. Not only this, they also go to far measures to conceal their identities and affiliation with the group among those who aren't in the group. Like i said before, look at the Freemasons and Shriners who do the same thing. There are texts written about the groups in great detail about many rites and initiations and identities, yet in the end, 99.9% of people will still consider them a secret society. There is no debate about that, yet for some reason you continue to try and make it so. Perilous Pauper
Thank you, Mel. I appreciate going to other editors. I didn't mean for the tone of my post to be sarcastic or patronising. I was just frustrated at something that seems so obvious and the difficult in showing that to you. Obviously you're an intelligent man and have the best interest of the site and its readers in mind. Sorry for anything which seemed personal. I can assure you it isn't.
64.194.97.35 07:28, 7 May 2006 (UTC)Cole Abaius
Mel, I keep noticing your constant revisions to the term "student society" from "secret society." What happened to bringing in new editors to look at this wiki page?? or was that just a ploy to hope people would stop reading this?? I dont know how it is that you don't understand the difference between student society and secret society...they are not exclusive terms, yet for some reason you find them to be so. The others on this board have shown evidence that points that the NoZe is a secret society, yet you have shown nothing to prove the opposite...yet, you still believe that its ok to switch it to a student society. I don't understand your editing and how you would consider it an improvement when in fact you are serving a huge diservice to all those who view this page by not telling the truth. Why not reason (with hard solid evidence, proof, facts, truth) with me, and the rest of the people here, as to why you think it should be one way and not the other. I would love to know and show you how you are wrong. Thanks
Coming from RfC. As an outside editor with no personal knowledge of the topic, I would say that the Brotherhood obviously qualifies as a "secret society", albeit one with a absurdist bent. I would suggest changing the text to "collegiate secret society", linking it to List of collegiate secret societies. The qualifier "collegiate" helps distinguish it from more ... mature ... secret societies such as the Freemasons. Beyond that, the article would benefit from further elaboration on their current activities -- it says they started because of some guy's nose, and continued as only "slightly irreverent", but gives no indication of whether they still are irreverent, and if so, whether more or less so than in their early years. Powers 12:42, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree that "student society" isn't suffiicient — that's why the rest of the article exists. What about the argument that I give at 1.? (With reference to the argument offered by the unsigned anon, above, the notion that any group at a university must be assumed to be a student group is peculiar.) -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 11:50, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Powers, thank you for your insight into the situation. Its good to see another outside source/editor who agrees with the majority of those who have viewed this page as well as understood the basis for the idea of being a secret society. As for the current activities, some of them were pasted on earlier versions of the page but have since then been removed by Mel because they apparently do not conform to his writing/editing style. Much of what was originally posted was removed without the original authors consent or notice.
Again, the article was taken to RfC, and the one respondent suggested replacing "secret society" with "collegiate secret society", with a link to the relevant list. I've edited the article in line with that compromise, and my edit is still being reverted (along with the removal of the hyperbolic "unique" to describe the writing style of the club's newspaper). All the talk about my being determined to get my own way looks pretty silly in context; I've accepted the compromise, the other side hasn't. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 08:48, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I posted this conflict to the mediation cabal. Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2006-05-17_The_NoZe_Brotherhood Cjosefy 14:09, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to bring up the subject of Verification and Copy Editing considering there are two banners at the head of this page that deal with that, yet there has been no recent talk about this subject at all. I don't understand the reason for why these banners are in place. I've seen the initial workings of this page through the history section and understand the initial basis for why the banners were placed up there, but shouldn't it be time to remove them. There are a number of footnotes that link to active webpages in decent to reputable publications (Lariat, Baylor Magazine, Texas Monthly, Dallas Morning News, etc), as well as a well published book "The Nose Brotherhood Knows," that i believe has entered its second edition (I'm not positive about this one). I believe this qualifies as acceptable verification as has been explained in Wikipedia's Verifiability page which states "This policy in a nutshell: Information on Wikipedia must be reliable. Facts, viewpoints, theories, and arguments may only be included in articles if they have already been published by reliable and reputable sources. Articles should cite these sources whenever possible. Any unsourced material may be challenged and removed." If there is no contest, then i believe it is time to remove that banner.
As for the second banner concerning copy editing, i believe it is also time to remove this banner. Reading over some of the differences in the talk section, it seems that there are a number of disagreements as to what has and what should be removed or added. As stated in Wiki's How to copy edit the following is stated concerning Etiquette
Since copy-editing only includes differences in spelling, grammar, punctuation, tone, style, and voice and since "copy-editing comes from organizations that deal with printed media; [whereas] it is loosely applied here," and since there has been little no no major change within the spelling/grammar/punctuation/tone/style/voice of this page within the past couple of months, i saw its time to remove that banner as well.
If you have any objections to the removal of them, please bring your concerns up and we can talk about them before action is taken. If nothing is said, then i will remove them.
The article includes a great deal of poor writing, ranging from overblown style to inconsistent syntax (for example, the society is sometimes treated as singular, sometimes as plural). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mel Etitis ( talk • contribs) .
Well, as it seems that there are no other comments regarding this issue, i'm only to correctly assume that this is a non issue and warrants the removal of the tags.--IronChefSakai
This article should be nominated for a most improved award. It is not perfect yet but is much improved over where it started last year. It is no longer an embarrassment to the encyclopedia but could be used as an example of what a number of people working together can produce. 216.188.239.97 02:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Once again, a banner calling into question the tone of the article has popped up without so much as a word on the discussion page. If whoever placed it there would like to speak up and have his or her issues heard, that would acceptable, but for the time being, I'm going to remove it until actual discussion on the tone has taken place. 66.7.32.10 18:46, 19 July 2007 (UTC)BaylorFan
Thank you, Chris. Instead of removing inappropriate statements, as defined by you, why not raise specific issues on this talkback to gain a better consensus? I ask this only because I've seen the history of this page, and it is full of edits that took place back and forth between two differing entities. This led to the Cabal.
This is the first that the article has been called into question since then, although a ton of great work was done to take it from it's original, horrid state to the state it's in now. Not to say that more can't be done, but I believe it will be accomplished more smoothly if done out in the open. 66.7.32.10 20:37, 26 July 2007 (UTC)BaylorFan
I removed the banner that was calling into question the tone of the article due to a lack of reasoning for why it was placed there in the first place. Whomever placed it there did not have sufficient enough reason as to why it should be there, nor did they adequately state as to why it should remain there. As stated before, the article has been relatively free of vandalism and free of any abnormal tone or style issues. Please leave the article as is unless you have something constructive to add...and then do so on the discussion board prior to changing anything. Thanks --IronChefSakai
The latest issue of GQ magazine claims that Rand Paul was a member. Everard Proudfoot ( talk) 21:34, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
The link provided under this "prank" doesn't lead to a current article. In the absence of any context, I am guessing the prank is the claim they killed Herb Reynolds. Pawsplay ( talk) 03:48, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
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The Noble NoZe Brotherhood has been disbanded over allegations that one of the members was pregnant. The girl was also dating another guy so now they are in a big legal mess about who's the parents baby will be. Please delete this whole article until the the trials are over.