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The Man in the Moone, a 1638 book (frontispiece and title page pictured) by the English
bishop
Francis Godwin, is considered one of the first
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Does the long footnote 'e' and the ref to Simoson's 'pursuit curve' paper really add anything worthwhile? Simoson's article was an exercise in mathematical overkill, apparently intended to give maths students something to get their teeth into, and written (as his reference to 'gravity' shows) with total disregard to the science of Godwin's day. Godwin wouldn't have understood either the astronomy or the maths, and it doesn't help us understand Godwin's book. Simoson's explanation may work in our universe, but it wouldn't necessarily work in Godwin's.
If you really feel the reference is vital, at least give Gonsales's own conclusion about his shorter homeward journey (homesick gansas or the earth's greater attraction) priority, with just a passing mention that 'A modern mathematician, Andrew Simoson, has concluded...'. (But I still think it's a bit like pointing out that Jules Verne's moon travellers, fired from a cannon, would have been crushed by the acceleration - and then spending a dozen pages of mathematical calculations to prove just how flat they would have been squashed.) - John O'London ( talk) 21:55, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
Another thing just above my paygrade: the chronology and the Gregorian/Julian calendar. Basically, Poole says that the mix-up in the dates is because toward the end Godwin realized that Gonsales ought to be on the Gregorian calendar, but never got to revise the whole thing. I've not seen other commentary on it, and Poole cites only one other scholar in that section, so I don't know if it's that important. "Rather, the fact that two consistent systems are at work in discrete portions of the text reveals a faultline, on one side of which the material is calendrically revised, and on the other, not. This in turn hints at the state of the MS from which the printed text was prepared." But no conclusions are drawn, certainly not about the manuscript. Drmies ( talk) 03:03, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
No kidding: it's an entry in the OED: "One of the birds (called elsewhere ‘wild swans’) which drew Domingo Gonsales to the moon in the romance by Bp. F. Godwin." We could add "romance" to the genre section but that's a bit silly. Poole cites it as evidence of Godwin's influence--the OED entry cites usage by Wilkins, Joseph Hall (bishop), Butler (Hudibras), Henry More, James Hogg...: "There are scores of jokes in all genres of the period mocking people by coupling “Domingo” or his “Gansas” (myriad spellings—“Gonsos,” “Gansæs,” “Ganzæs,” etc.) with the suggestion that the target in question is merely a loony or a goose". Drmies ( talk) 04:15, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
I've no doubt the Chinese ending is in reference to the first trickles of the stream of Oriental mysticism arriving in Godwin's time in the West by way of the Jesuits and Islamic literature too. "The Milk-Drinking Haṅsas of Sanskrit Poetry" Charles R. Lanman Journal of the American Oriental Society Vol. 19 (1898), pp. 151-158 Hansa being the Sanskrit name for goose or swan and associated with the oldest schools of Yoga. Our "gonzo"- as lunatic or looney- may indeed come from this tale. Klasovsky ( talk) 00:13, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
I don't have you guys' stamina - but I notice the para beginning 'McColley knew of only one remaining copy of the first edition, held at the British Museum...'. Poole (see his p 63) used a copy in the Bodleian Library (Ashm. 940(1)) collated with the British Library copy. Since Poole's edition is the one you're using, a reference to the fact that the Bodleian Library has a copy is needed (wonder how McColley missed it?).
(Oh, and should historic references to books in the 'British Museum' be annotated 'now British Library' as a matter of course?)
I looked on Gallica to see if the BnF copy of Godwin was available online - it doesn't seem to be (perhaps because it's not in French?). However, what is available is Baudoin's 1648 translation: http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k82273v.r=%22L%27homme+dans+la+lune%22.langEN.swf
-- John O'London ( talk) 08:55, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
PS - are you interested in a couple of Dutch editions (undated and 1718)? - see http://catalogue.bnf.fr/servlet/biblio?idNoeud=1&ID=30517976&SN1=0&SN2=0&host=catalogue and http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001358222 - John O'London ( talk) 09:09, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
...and the second of these is available as a Google book http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=REbQAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA26&lpg=PA26&dq=De+Man+in+de+maen,+ofte+Een+verhaal+van&source=bl&ots=iEkrAjOZMV&sig=CXxypoe01UW5tzIoEFmpc20DpRc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kKtzUfWCKMn20gWCtYHoBg&ved=0CFcQ6AEwBQ - John O'London ( talk) 09:12, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
Right now, I think (but you need to judge this) that the "lunar speculation" section I just added needs to be placed in a Background section, divided into "Biographical" and "Sciency/Lunar" or some such thing. "Science" is of course both a theme and a background, and science as a theme requires a couple of sentences about what precisely Godwin has to say--magnetism, speed of travel, the medium (breathability, temperature, etc). I think the religious bit needs a tad more--the article I just added, by Cressy, is really interesting (it has, for instance, a different reading of the "Jesu Maria" slogan), and Poole has something as well. Your "Religion" section is good (and I'm glad you wrote it--thanks); it's mostly historically oriented, though, and doesn't say much about what Godwin's opinions might be inasmuch as the book suggests them. It needs just a bit more. And I think we're missing something of the utopian character of the book: some discussion of the Lunar beings, their organization, and their faith needs to be in there--the book is of course not satire but every utopia is a critique, and we should make (more) clear what that critique is. Drmies ( talk) 03:13, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Malleus, I see "{{notelist|notes]}} in the article. What's the "notes]" in there? Drmies ( talk) 14:53, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Wouldn't 'advances' be a more appropriate word than 'advancements'? (I'm not sure you can have plural advancements.) But for balance, 'speculations' plural. >> Scientific advances and Lunar speculations. John O'London ( talk) 09:37, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
Domingo Gonsales is the pseudonym of the author and also the a character. I'm not sure the article makes it super clear in the beginning that this is the case. On my first read through it was not apparent to me that Gonsales was used as the pseudonym and additionally was a fictional in the book until I read the flying machine bit. Could it be made clearer that Gonsales is a fictional character? I'm not great at writing, and don't think I would be the right person to propose what the change should be as far as the exact words. 69.58.248.1 ( talk) 18:10, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests/The Man in the Moone -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 20:38, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
I've contributed a high quality image of the book's iconic illustration, from one of only seven known surviving first editions—far better (4,124 × 7,079) than the current image (400 × 343) from a 2nd edition. However, each time I have added it to this article, it has been removed, each time for a different reason. Please clarify why this image should not be included in the article, @ J3Mrs: and @ Eric Corbett:.
Typometer ( talk) 21:24, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
Do you prefer this, @ J3Mrs:, @ Eric Corbett:, @ John O'London:?
Typometer ( talk) 01:54, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
Typometer ( talk) 16:38, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
The Man in the Moone article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 180 days |
The Man in the Moone is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on July 1, 2016. | ||||||||||
| ||||||||||
A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the "
Did you know?" column on
April 12, 2011. The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that
The Man in the Moone, a 1638 book (frontispiece and title page pictured) by the English
bishop
Francis Godwin, is considered one of the first
science fiction books? |
This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Does the long footnote 'e' and the ref to Simoson's 'pursuit curve' paper really add anything worthwhile? Simoson's article was an exercise in mathematical overkill, apparently intended to give maths students something to get their teeth into, and written (as his reference to 'gravity' shows) with total disregard to the science of Godwin's day. Godwin wouldn't have understood either the astronomy or the maths, and it doesn't help us understand Godwin's book. Simoson's explanation may work in our universe, but it wouldn't necessarily work in Godwin's.
If you really feel the reference is vital, at least give Gonsales's own conclusion about his shorter homeward journey (homesick gansas or the earth's greater attraction) priority, with just a passing mention that 'A modern mathematician, Andrew Simoson, has concluded...'. (But I still think it's a bit like pointing out that Jules Verne's moon travellers, fired from a cannon, would have been crushed by the acceleration - and then spending a dozen pages of mathematical calculations to prove just how flat they would have been squashed.) - John O'London ( talk) 21:55, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
Another thing just above my paygrade: the chronology and the Gregorian/Julian calendar. Basically, Poole says that the mix-up in the dates is because toward the end Godwin realized that Gonsales ought to be on the Gregorian calendar, but never got to revise the whole thing. I've not seen other commentary on it, and Poole cites only one other scholar in that section, so I don't know if it's that important. "Rather, the fact that two consistent systems are at work in discrete portions of the text reveals a faultline, on one side of which the material is calendrically revised, and on the other, not. This in turn hints at the state of the MS from which the printed text was prepared." But no conclusions are drawn, certainly not about the manuscript. Drmies ( talk) 03:03, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
No kidding: it's an entry in the OED: "One of the birds (called elsewhere ‘wild swans’) which drew Domingo Gonsales to the moon in the romance by Bp. F. Godwin." We could add "romance" to the genre section but that's a bit silly. Poole cites it as evidence of Godwin's influence--the OED entry cites usage by Wilkins, Joseph Hall (bishop), Butler (Hudibras), Henry More, James Hogg...: "There are scores of jokes in all genres of the period mocking people by coupling “Domingo” or his “Gansas” (myriad spellings—“Gonsos,” “Gansæs,” “Ganzæs,” etc.) with the suggestion that the target in question is merely a loony or a goose". Drmies ( talk) 04:15, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
I've no doubt the Chinese ending is in reference to the first trickles of the stream of Oriental mysticism arriving in Godwin's time in the West by way of the Jesuits and Islamic literature too. "The Milk-Drinking Haṅsas of Sanskrit Poetry" Charles R. Lanman Journal of the American Oriental Society Vol. 19 (1898), pp. 151-158 Hansa being the Sanskrit name for goose or swan and associated with the oldest schools of Yoga. Our "gonzo"- as lunatic or looney- may indeed come from this tale. Klasovsky ( talk) 00:13, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
I don't have you guys' stamina - but I notice the para beginning 'McColley knew of only one remaining copy of the first edition, held at the British Museum...'. Poole (see his p 63) used a copy in the Bodleian Library (Ashm. 940(1)) collated with the British Library copy. Since Poole's edition is the one you're using, a reference to the fact that the Bodleian Library has a copy is needed (wonder how McColley missed it?).
(Oh, and should historic references to books in the 'British Museum' be annotated 'now British Library' as a matter of course?)
I looked on Gallica to see if the BnF copy of Godwin was available online - it doesn't seem to be (perhaps because it's not in French?). However, what is available is Baudoin's 1648 translation: http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k82273v.r=%22L%27homme+dans+la+lune%22.langEN.swf
-- John O'London ( talk) 08:55, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
PS - are you interested in a couple of Dutch editions (undated and 1718)? - see http://catalogue.bnf.fr/servlet/biblio?idNoeud=1&ID=30517976&SN1=0&SN2=0&host=catalogue and http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001358222 - John O'London ( talk) 09:09, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
...and the second of these is available as a Google book http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=REbQAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA26&lpg=PA26&dq=De+Man+in+de+maen,+ofte+Een+verhaal+van&source=bl&ots=iEkrAjOZMV&sig=CXxypoe01UW5tzIoEFmpc20DpRc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kKtzUfWCKMn20gWCtYHoBg&ved=0CFcQ6AEwBQ - John O'London ( talk) 09:12, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
Right now, I think (but you need to judge this) that the "lunar speculation" section I just added needs to be placed in a Background section, divided into "Biographical" and "Sciency/Lunar" or some such thing. "Science" is of course both a theme and a background, and science as a theme requires a couple of sentences about what precisely Godwin has to say--magnetism, speed of travel, the medium (breathability, temperature, etc). I think the religious bit needs a tad more--the article I just added, by Cressy, is really interesting (it has, for instance, a different reading of the "Jesu Maria" slogan), and Poole has something as well. Your "Religion" section is good (and I'm glad you wrote it--thanks); it's mostly historically oriented, though, and doesn't say much about what Godwin's opinions might be inasmuch as the book suggests them. It needs just a bit more. And I think we're missing something of the utopian character of the book: some discussion of the Lunar beings, their organization, and their faith needs to be in there--the book is of course not satire but every utopia is a critique, and we should make (more) clear what that critique is. Drmies ( talk) 03:13, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Malleus, I see "{{notelist|notes]}} in the article. What's the "notes]" in there? Drmies ( talk) 14:53, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Wouldn't 'advances' be a more appropriate word than 'advancements'? (I'm not sure you can have plural advancements.) But for balance, 'speculations' plural. >> Scientific advances and Lunar speculations. John O'London ( talk) 09:37, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
Domingo Gonsales is the pseudonym of the author and also the a character. I'm not sure the article makes it super clear in the beginning that this is the case. On my first read through it was not apparent to me that Gonsales was used as the pseudonym and additionally was a fictional in the book until I read the flying machine bit. Could it be made clearer that Gonsales is a fictional character? I'm not great at writing, and don't think I would be the right person to propose what the change should be as far as the exact words. 69.58.248.1 ( talk) 18:10, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests/The Man in the Moone -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 20:38, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
I've contributed a high quality image of the book's iconic illustration, from one of only seven known surviving first editions—far better (4,124 × 7,079) than the current image (400 × 343) from a 2nd edition. However, each time I have added it to this article, it has been removed, each time for a different reason. Please clarify why this image should not be included in the article, @ J3Mrs: and @ Eric Corbett:.
Typometer ( talk) 21:24, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
Do you prefer this, @ J3Mrs:, @ Eric Corbett:, @ John O'London:?
Typometer ( talk) 01:54, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
Typometer ( talk) 16:38, 6 May 2018 (UTC)