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I've been looking into this. The situation is that in Schikaneder's dialogue, both early in Act 1 between Tamino and Papageno and later between Papageno and Pamina, the Queen is described as "die sternflammende Königin" [1]. In English, that's usually translated as "the star-blazing Queen" or something similar.
In 1794, the opera was performed in Prague in an Italian translation (with recits rather than spoken dialogue) by Giovanni de Gamerra. [2] This became the standard Italian translation, and was used in countries other than Italy. In the Tamino/Papageno and Papageno/Pamina scenes, the term "die sternflammende Königin" became "Regina notturna astrifiammante" or "la Regina astrifiammante", [3] i.e. "the star-flaming Queen". "Astrifiammante" isn't a name, it's an adjective.
Nevertheless, it looks as if someone sometime thought that "Regina astrifiammante", notwithstanding the lower-case "a", meant "Queen Astrifiammante", and that's how she's come to be known in Italy (see the Italian Wikipedia [4]). The opera was frequently performed in Italian in the C19 in countries such as England and the USA, where Italian opera ruled and opera with spoken dialogue was a no-no, and the spurious "name" of the Queen spread. However, it wasn't always spelled as in the Italian translation - Google will also give you Astrafiammante, Astrafiamante and Astrofiammante. I guess that the "Astra-" versions are based on dim memories of Latin where "astra" is a neuter plural word meaning "stars" ("Per ardua ad astra"). One Italian word for star is "astro", plural "astri" (the other is "stella"). "Astra" doesn't mean anything in Italian.
So, to sum up, the "name", however spelled, is based on a misconception. Hope this helps!! -- GuillaumeTell ( talk) 00:39, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I've never heard of this. The score says two. I've heard of only one (with significant cuts), but never three. Is this at all common? If it is rare, I'd prefer that if it gets mentioned at all, that its a parenthetical mention at the end of the synopsis. Fully integrating it as an equal option is misleading. DavidRF ( talk) 00:09, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Hello. I've just redirected the orphaned article The three boys (opera characters). It doesn't make sense to have a separate article for these characters but there's probably some content there worth incorporating in this article. Since I have no real expertise on the subject, I hope someone here can take a look at it and decide on the best course of action. Cheers, Pichpich ( talk) 16:57, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
I thought it might be of interest to add a reference to Philip K. Dick's novel Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?. I wasn't sure about the position or heading, if anyone wished to edit the entry feel free. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jamiemcginlay ( talk • contribs) 23:48, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
At the start of Clementi's piano Sonata in B flat Major, op. 24 n. 2 there is a melody that was used in the Magic Flute in both the overture and the aria "Der Hölle Rache". Are there experts who can give a reliable background to this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.125.79.195 ( talk) 11:57, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Das Baz ( talk · contribs) has now twice ( [1, [2, no edit summary) added this sentence: " Guy Davenport has written short stories in which the Three Boys appear. Their names are given as Buckeye, Quark, and Tumble." I have removed it once (edit summary: "removed tenuous work 'inspired by'").
I maintain that this is of no significance for the article on The Magic Flute, especially since it doesn't seem to be mentioned on Davenport's page. The sentence as added is not referenced and the names of the boys seem to make any connection with Mozart's opera highly tenuous. I suggest to remove the sentence again. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 01:38, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
I have posted a warning note about this continual series of reversions on Das Baz's Talk page. Viva-Verdi ( talk) 22:56, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
Although this part is short and simple, isn't Papagena a mezzo-soprano? Anderston ( talk) 09:15, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
According to the original Fassung the role of Papageno is to be sung by a bass. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.108.230.225 ( talk) 07:47, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
This phrase "...a dangerous kind of obscurantism", describing the meaning of the Queen of the Night and her feminine following, is mealy-mouthed weasel-speak. (No offense meant.) The "dangerous obscurantism" was, of course, the Lodge's main rival, the Catholic Church, whose members among the Austrian Royalty had been opposing the Masons for some time. Shouldn't be that hard to find a source.... SingingZombie ( talk) 05:43, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
OK, got it. http://www.masonmusic.org/mozart.html
I hope it's ok as a source--it's clearly written by active Masons. But the history is verifiable. SingingZombie ( talk) 05:50, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
Normally I'd say go with what was written in the original score, but the Sprecher ("Speaker of the Temple", a very misleading name since he is a recitative singer, not one of the all-spoken roles in the piece) who explains to Tamino that Sarastro is a good-guy and women should not be taken seriously, is not a "bass"; he's a bass-baritone. It's historically important because this role was a model for Wotan/Wanderer, the quintessential bass-baritone. Typically the Sprecher is recorded by true bass-baritones, like Hans Hotter, Paul Schoffler, and Jose van Dam, but sometimes also by full baritones like Fischer-Dieskau, Andres Schmidt, John Brownlee, and George London. Occasionally a bass, a Sarastro-wannabe like Kurt Boehme or Jan-Hedrik Rootering will do it, but only occasionally, and on most of those occasions it's a bass who doubles as a bass-baritone, like Rootering, who sang Wotan a couple of times, or Georg Hann. SingingZombie ( talk) 01:46, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
I seem to have forgotten the name of the terzetto, but still, in one production I saw it performed right after Sarastro's "O Isis und Osiris" instead of the chorus. 4 = 2 + 2 15:11, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
If the article is gonna mention that the 2 Armed Men's unison anthem is in Baroque chorale-form (which of course should be mentioned), why not also mention that it is preceded by a fugue? Mozart had only recently become interested in "ancient music" (meaning mostly Bach) and started writing fugues, in the Overture to Magic Flute, the "Kyrie Eleison" in the REQUIEM, a few other pieces. It solemnizes the quartet which is, after all, the climax of the whole piece. SingingZombie ( talk) 21:07, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Trying to start a discography but table function doesn't seem to be working. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.237.243.185 ( talk) 08:33, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
I've just implemented DavidRF's suggestion, which seems like a good idea given that there must be a million recordings. Opus33 ( talk) 21:23, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
I have very little expertise in this area, but it seems to me that the opera performed in The Fifth Element may have been inspired by the vocal styling from this piece. I do not know the name of the one performed in the movie, if it is an original for the film or not, etc. etc. Just thought I'd add my two cents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.101.237.199 ( talk) 19:48, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Here's a question: can anyone find an online source for the obvious, well-known influence of Gluck's ORPHEUS AND EURIDICE on THE MAGIC FLUTE? The whole lover-suffering-from-doubt-because-hero-is-required-to-stay-silent thing. And, for that matter, the taming-the-wild-creatures-with-music thing. Can't seem to find it online but I read about it in innumerable articles when I was an undergrad and the wiki article ought to mention it for completeness. SingingZombie ( talk) 21:29, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Link in reference to Italian page broken. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.160.17.102 ( talk) 11:51, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
This seems to cover an awful lot of ground and expresses opinions that I suspect are rather far from the critical mainstream. Perhaps we could have a separate section, or satellite article, covering the diversity of critical opinion on the opera? Opus33 ( talk) 02:56, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm moving this to this talk page:
My reasoning is that this material isn't really very much about about The Magic Flute but rather about Oberon. Indeed, AFAIK it already appears in the article about Hüon und Amande, the opera from which Oberon was basically plagiarized. So I think it's better to keep our coverage of The Magic Flute reasonably terse, and let readers follow the link to Hüon und Amande if they want to learn more about the Oberon plagiarism. Opus33 ( talk) 03:17, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
References
The tailpiece to the plot synopssis reads:
The opera may sometimes be divided into three acts in which case, the third act typically begins with scene 8. Even in the two-act version, the scenes in act 2 are sometimes rearranged, with the Sarastro-Tamino-Pamina trio occurring earlier and Sarastro's prayer occurring later.
I can't work out from the plot summary where this "Scene 8" is supposed to occur. Can someone clarify? Also, different versions of the score use different scene divisions; the Boosey and Hawkes vocal score, for example, divides Act 2 into 10 scenes, not 7 as indicated here. Is it really necessary to mark every scene change in the summary, based on one version? Another thing: I've been watching and listening to this opera since about 1989 and I've never seen, or indeed heard of, a three-act version. How common are these? Brianboulton ( talk) 20:34, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
On the more general question of uncited information, does anyone know the sources for the information given in this paragraph:
"Mozart evidently wrote keeping in mind the skills of the singers intended for the premiere, which included both virtuosi and ordinary comic actors, asked to sing for the occasion. Thus, the vocal lines for Papageno—sung by Schikaneder himself—and Monostatos (Johann Joseph Nouseul) are often stated first in the strings so the singer can find his pitch, and are frequently doubled by instruments. In contrast, Mozart's sister-in-law Josepha Hofer, who premiered the role of the Queen of the Night, evidently needed little such help: this role is famous for its difficulty. In ensembles, Mozart skillfully combined voices of different ability levels."
Brianboulton ( talk) 19:27, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
This is a bad entry because there is no clear description at the start of just what the Magic Flute is all about (which is what I was wanting to know). It's written as though we all know that already - well, lots of us don't. We have to proceed down to the long and detailed scene-by-scene synopsis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.177.4.109 ( talk) 14:36, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
Shouldn't the section on "Freemasonry and the Magic Flute" mention the ongoing rivalry between the Freemasons and the Catholic Church? Maria Teresa's opposition to the Lodge was certainly partly a result of her adherence to Roman Catholicism. I am linking the phrase "Roman Catholic" to the wiki article on the papal prohibition on Catholics joining the lodge. Goblinshark17 ( talk) 01:41, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
I worked for a short time as a copy-editor, and as I recall, foreign-language quotations should be italicized. N'est-ce pas? Goblinshark17 ( talk) 17:37, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I have inserted a note into the SYNOPSIS saying that the second-act trio "Soll ich dich teurer, nicht mehr sehn?" is sometimes performed earlier in the act. For the record, this is done to preserve the continuity of Pamina's suicidal feelings. With the conventional placement of the trio as described in the synopsis, she has the scene where Tamino refuses to talk to her, she sings the aria "Ach ich fuhl's" about how miserable she is, and then there's the trio, in which Sarastro explains that the trials will continue and she and Tamino sing lovingly to each other, and then in the second act finale she's suicidal AGAIN. That makes no sense--her suicidal feelings and fears that Tamino no longer loves her should have been resolved by the trio. However if the trio is performed earlier in the act, then she goes straight from her sadness aria to her suicidal appearance in the finale, with no intervening appearances, which makes good dramatic sense. I didn't put this explanation in the note in the synopsis, so I'm putting it here instead. Goblinshark17 ( talk) 17:32, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
The three spirits are not "three boys"; they are three SPIRITS, often played by boys, but not always. See for instance Furtwangler's recordings (1949 and 1950); also Klemperer's recording. In these recordings the spirits are played by adult women.
Also, the sentence "[The protagonists] escape all dangers by using the magical instruments (flute, bells)" or whatever it said, was WRONG. They escape the danger of the trial-by-silence, not by using the instruments, but just by shutting up. So I've removed that sentence. SingingZombie ( talk) 00:39, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
However, I'm not going to meddle with the article page, because really this is just a minor detail and not worth a war on semantics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.203.102.81 ( talk) 18:35, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
now installed at Libretto of The Magic Flute; too long to be part of this main article. I'll put a summary of it in the main article. Opus33 ( talk) 16:43, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
I put in this phrase long ago, before I realized that there is a great deal of scholarly doubt concerning the traditional narrative of the end of Mozart's life (which posits gradually-mounting illness, poverty, fear, despair ...). The emerging modern alternative (e.g. Zaslaw, Biba, Halliwell, Wolff) is, more or less, that in 1791 Mozart was having a great year until he was suddenly felled by a horrible contagious disease that spread through Vienna. For discussion, see Death of Mozart. It will probably never be possible to sort out these two scenarios with certainty, but I've reworded the phrasing in this article on how Mozart reacted to the success of The Magic Flute to say simply that he was really pleased (that much seems certain). It seems unnecessarily speculative to suggest that Mozart's spirits in October 1791 were in need of lifting. Opus33 ( talk) 16:43, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
I've moved the following material here.
---
"==The Magic Flute and Freemasonry=="
The Magic Flute is noted for its prominent Masonic elements. Schikaneder and Mozart were Masons and lodge brothers, as was Ignaz Alberti, engraver and printer of the first libretto. [1] The opera is also influenced by Enlightenment philosophy, and can be regarded as an allegory advocating enlightened absolutism. The Queen of the Night represents a dangerous form of obscurantism or, according to some, the anti-Masonic Roman Catholic Empress Maria Theresa, [2] or, according to others, the contemporary Roman Catholic Church itself, which was also strongly anti-Masonic. [3] Her antagonist Sarastro symbolises the enlightened sovereign who rules according to principles based on reason, wisdom, and nature. The story itself portrays the education of mankind, progressing from chaos (the serpent) through religious superstition (the Queen and Ladies) to rationalistic enlightenment (Sarastro and Priests), by means of trial (Tamino) and error (Papageno), ultimately to make "the Earth a heavenly kingdom, and mortals like the gods" ("Dann ist die Erd' ein Himmelreich, und Sterbliche den Göttern gleich"); this couplet is sung in the finales to both acts.
---
For helpful discussion of the "overselling" of the Masonic hypothesis, with particularly critical discussion of the allegorical interpretations, see Buch, David J. (2004) Die Zauberflöte, masonic opera, and other fairy tales. Acta Musicologica 76:193-219. Available on line at [6]. Also, for a very revealing review suggesting that the primary originator of the Masonic-allegory theory, Jacques Chailley, was just an incredibly sloppy scholar, see [7]. Opus33 ( talk) 20:37, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
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The article currently says:
Two men in armor lead in Tamino. They recite one of the formal creeds of Isis and Osiris, promising enlightenment to those who successfully overcome the fear of death ("Der, welcher wandert diese Strasse voll Beschwerden"). This recitation takes the musical form of a Baroque chorale prelude, to the tune of Martin Luther's hymn "Ach Gott, vom Himmel sieh darein" (Oh God, look down from heaven)
First of all, the article gives no source or reference for this claim. Now, I go to YouTube and search, and I get a very different melody listed as Luther's setting. See/hear, for instance, this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1HNLoIKcC8
And this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRpkaEdiNgI
Mozart appears to have cribbed the melody, not from Martin Luther, but from a setting by Bach, whose setting seems to be inspired by, but different from, Luther's. See/hear this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCUCzGRQYIs
And this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR3GPxM6vzo
There are also other settings by Bach which don't seem to be the tune Mozart used, such as, for instance, this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0YLRovPF6A
Of course, all this is my own original research, which is why I'm only putting it here in the TALK page. But at very least, the article should include a source for the claim--apparently false--that the Two Armed Men's anthem is based on Luther's own music, and the claim should probably be changed to mention Bach, rather than Luther, as the original composer of the anthem's melody.
So I'm putting in an "Original Research" tag, and maybe I'll also change the unsourced incorrect mention of Luther as the composer, and replace it with an unsourced CORRECT mention of Bach, and try to come back later with a good source.
HandsomeMrToad ( talk) 01:46, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
Papageno effect says:
According to this article:
Which is true? Is the Papageno effect misnamed or the plot summary misses that Papageno scene? -- Error ( talk) 10:47, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
In attemtping a rescue for On this day I've removed a couple of unreferenced paragraphs. They're a bit OR in tone but the Spiel- vs. Sing fach observation is uncontroversial enough that a RS should be available somewhere in the literature (I note though that for myself and the QotN's I've known the extreme F's are a pleasure rather than a particular challenge).
In composing the opera, Mozart evidently kept in mind the skills of the singers intended for the premiere, which included both virtuoso and ordinary comic actors asked to sing for the occasion. Thus, the vocal lines for Papageno—sung by Schikaneder himself—and Monostatos ( Johann Joseph Nouseul) are often stated first in the strings so the singer can find his pitch, and are frequently doubled by instruments. In contrast, Mozart's sister-in-law Josepha Hofer, who premiered the role of the Queen of the Night, evidently needed little such help: this role is famous for its difficulty. In ensembles, Mozart skillfully combined voices of different ability levels.
The vocal ranges of two of the original singers for whom Mozart tailored his music have posed challenges for many singers who have since recreated their roles. Both arias of the Queen of the Night, " O zittre nicht, mein lieber Sohn" and " Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen" require high F6, rare in opera. At the low end, the part of Sarastro, premiered by Franz Xaver Gerl, includes a conspicuous F2 in a few locations.
Sparafucil ( talk) 02:43, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
Act 2 has 10 scenes. Currently Scene 6 is labeled "Finale". Is this an error? Mgnbar ( talk) 19:53, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
It is fine to have such detailed account of what happens on stage, but could we also have a real synopsis in the "synopsis" section, i.e. A brief outline or general view, as of a subject or written work; an abstract or a summary.. Brief, abstract, summary (emphasis mine).
I could do it but I dare not, this for sure has been done by recognized critics and I am not knowledgeable enough to have sources. 2A01:E0A:1DC:4570:787C:FFC7:3E05:E252 ( talk) 19:57, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
The recording used here is not so great. There are a lot of pitch problems with the singer's performance. Here is the same singer in a performance in which she does a substantially better job:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqZa2KYuNsU
Perhaps it should be substituted. 222.116.223.84 ( talk) 16:01, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
I have made a number of changes to the Synopsis to bring it into line with the score. There is no suggestion there that the Three Boys are "child-spirits" - or that animals dance in the finale! (Perhaps that was done somewhere at a children's matinee.)
The 2013 DuQuette talk on Masonic influence [4] seems authoritative and might be cited further. -- Hugh7 ( talk) 09:11, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
References
If not, what would a better fitting name be. It just personally doesn't feel encyclopedic enough to me the way it is now. Nowhere Box ( talk) 22:20, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
I've been looking into this. The situation is that in Schikaneder's dialogue, both early in Act 1 between Tamino and Papageno and later between Papageno and Pamina, the Queen is described as "die sternflammende Königin" [1]. In English, that's usually translated as "the star-blazing Queen" or something similar.
In 1794, the opera was performed in Prague in an Italian translation (with recits rather than spoken dialogue) by Giovanni de Gamerra. [2] This became the standard Italian translation, and was used in countries other than Italy. In the Tamino/Papageno and Papageno/Pamina scenes, the term "die sternflammende Königin" became "Regina notturna astrifiammante" or "la Regina astrifiammante", [3] i.e. "the star-flaming Queen". "Astrifiammante" isn't a name, it's an adjective.
Nevertheless, it looks as if someone sometime thought that "Regina astrifiammante", notwithstanding the lower-case "a", meant "Queen Astrifiammante", and that's how she's come to be known in Italy (see the Italian Wikipedia [4]). The opera was frequently performed in Italian in the C19 in countries such as England and the USA, where Italian opera ruled and opera with spoken dialogue was a no-no, and the spurious "name" of the Queen spread. However, it wasn't always spelled as in the Italian translation - Google will also give you Astrafiammante, Astrafiamante and Astrofiammante. I guess that the "Astra-" versions are based on dim memories of Latin where "astra" is a neuter plural word meaning "stars" ("Per ardua ad astra"). One Italian word for star is "astro", plural "astri" (the other is "stella"). "Astra" doesn't mean anything in Italian.
So, to sum up, the "name", however spelled, is based on a misconception. Hope this helps!! -- GuillaumeTell ( talk) 00:39, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I've never heard of this. The score says two. I've heard of only one (with significant cuts), but never three. Is this at all common? If it is rare, I'd prefer that if it gets mentioned at all, that its a parenthetical mention at the end of the synopsis. Fully integrating it as an equal option is misleading. DavidRF ( talk) 00:09, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Hello. I've just redirected the orphaned article The three boys (opera characters). It doesn't make sense to have a separate article for these characters but there's probably some content there worth incorporating in this article. Since I have no real expertise on the subject, I hope someone here can take a look at it and decide on the best course of action. Cheers, Pichpich ( talk) 16:57, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
I thought it might be of interest to add a reference to Philip K. Dick's novel Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?. I wasn't sure about the position or heading, if anyone wished to edit the entry feel free. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jamiemcginlay ( talk • contribs) 23:48, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
At the start of Clementi's piano Sonata in B flat Major, op. 24 n. 2 there is a melody that was used in the Magic Flute in both the overture and the aria "Der Hölle Rache". Are there experts who can give a reliable background to this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.125.79.195 ( talk) 11:57, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Das Baz ( talk · contribs) has now twice ( [1, [2, no edit summary) added this sentence: " Guy Davenport has written short stories in which the Three Boys appear. Their names are given as Buckeye, Quark, and Tumble." I have removed it once (edit summary: "removed tenuous work 'inspired by'").
I maintain that this is of no significance for the article on The Magic Flute, especially since it doesn't seem to be mentioned on Davenport's page. The sentence as added is not referenced and the names of the boys seem to make any connection with Mozart's opera highly tenuous. I suggest to remove the sentence again. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 01:38, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
I have posted a warning note about this continual series of reversions on Das Baz's Talk page. Viva-Verdi ( talk) 22:56, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
Although this part is short and simple, isn't Papagena a mezzo-soprano? Anderston ( talk) 09:15, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
According to the original Fassung the role of Papageno is to be sung by a bass. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.108.230.225 ( talk) 07:47, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
This phrase "...a dangerous kind of obscurantism", describing the meaning of the Queen of the Night and her feminine following, is mealy-mouthed weasel-speak. (No offense meant.) The "dangerous obscurantism" was, of course, the Lodge's main rival, the Catholic Church, whose members among the Austrian Royalty had been opposing the Masons for some time. Shouldn't be that hard to find a source.... SingingZombie ( talk) 05:43, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
OK, got it. http://www.masonmusic.org/mozart.html
I hope it's ok as a source--it's clearly written by active Masons. But the history is verifiable. SingingZombie ( talk) 05:50, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
Normally I'd say go with what was written in the original score, but the Sprecher ("Speaker of the Temple", a very misleading name since he is a recitative singer, not one of the all-spoken roles in the piece) who explains to Tamino that Sarastro is a good-guy and women should not be taken seriously, is not a "bass"; he's a bass-baritone. It's historically important because this role was a model for Wotan/Wanderer, the quintessential bass-baritone. Typically the Sprecher is recorded by true bass-baritones, like Hans Hotter, Paul Schoffler, and Jose van Dam, but sometimes also by full baritones like Fischer-Dieskau, Andres Schmidt, John Brownlee, and George London. Occasionally a bass, a Sarastro-wannabe like Kurt Boehme or Jan-Hedrik Rootering will do it, but only occasionally, and on most of those occasions it's a bass who doubles as a bass-baritone, like Rootering, who sang Wotan a couple of times, or Georg Hann. SingingZombie ( talk) 01:46, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
I seem to have forgotten the name of the terzetto, but still, in one production I saw it performed right after Sarastro's "O Isis und Osiris" instead of the chorus. 4 = 2 + 2 15:11, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
If the article is gonna mention that the 2 Armed Men's unison anthem is in Baroque chorale-form (which of course should be mentioned), why not also mention that it is preceded by a fugue? Mozart had only recently become interested in "ancient music" (meaning mostly Bach) and started writing fugues, in the Overture to Magic Flute, the "Kyrie Eleison" in the REQUIEM, a few other pieces. It solemnizes the quartet which is, after all, the climax of the whole piece. SingingZombie ( talk) 21:07, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Trying to start a discography but table function doesn't seem to be working. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.237.243.185 ( talk) 08:33, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
I've just implemented DavidRF's suggestion, which seems like a good idea given that there must be a million recordings. Opus33 ( talk) 21:23, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
I have very little expertise in this area, but it seems to me that the opera performed in The Fifth Element may have been inspired by the vocal styling from this piece. I do not know the name of the one performed in the movie, if it is an original for the film or not, etc. etc. Just thought I'd add my two cents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.101.237.199 ( talk) 19:48, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Here's a question: can anyone find an online source for the obvious, well-known influence of Gluck's ORPHEUS AND EURIDICE on THE MAGIC FLUTE? The whole lover-suffering-from-doubt-because-hero-is-required-to-stay-silent thing. And, for that matter, the taming-the-wild-creatures-with-music thing. Can't seem to find it online but I read about it in innumerable articles when I was an undergrad and the wiki article ought to mention it for completeness. SingingZombie ( talk) 21:29, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Link in reference to Italian page broken. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.160.17.102 ( talk) 11:51, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
This seems to cover an awful lot of ground and expresses opinions that I suspect are rather far from the critical mainstream. Perhaps we could have a separate section, or satellite article, covering the diversity of critical opinion on the opera? Opus33 ( talk) 02:56, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm moving this to this talk page:
My reasoning is that this material isn't really very much about about The Magic Flute but rather about Oberon. Indeed, AFAIK it already appears in the article about Hüon und Amande, the opera from which Oberon was basically plagiarized. So I think it's better to keep our coverage of The Magic Flute reasonably terse, and let readers follow the link to Hüon und Amande if they want to learn more about the Oberon plagiarism. Opus33 ( talk) 03:17, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
References
The tailpiece to the plot synopssis reads:
The opera may sometimes be divided into three acts in which case, the third act typically begins with scene 8. Even in the two-act version, the scenes in act 2 are sometimes rearranged, with the Sarastro-Tamino-Pamina trio occurring earlier and Sarastro's prayer occurring later.
I can't work out from the plot summary where this "Scene 8" is supposed to occur. Can someone clarify? Also, different versions of the score use different scene divisions; the Boosey and Hawkes vocal score, for example, divides Act 2 into 10 scenes, not 7 as indicated here. Is it really necessary to mark every scene change in the summary, based on one version? Another thing: I've been watching and listening to this opera since about 1989 and I've never seen, or indeed heard of, a three-act version. How common are these? Brianboulton ( talk) 20:34, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
On the more general question of uncited information, does anyone know the sources for the information given in this paragraph:
"Mozart evidently wrote keeping in mind the skills of the singers intended for the premiere, which included both virtuosi and ordinary comic actors, asked to sing for the occasion. Thus, the vocal lines for Papageno—sung by Schikaneder himself—and Monostatos (Johann Joseph Nouseul) are often stated first in the strings so the singer can find his pitch, and are frequently doubled by instruments. In contrast, Mozart's sister-in-law Josepha Hofer, who premiered the role of the Queen of the Night, evidently needed little such help: this role is famous for its difficulty. In ensembles, Mozart skillfully combined voices of different ability levels."
Brianboulton ( talk) 19:27, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
This is a bad entry because there is no clear description at the start of just what the Magic Flute is all about (which is what I was wanting to know). It's written as though we all know that already - well, lots of us don't. We have to proceed down to the long and detailed scene-by-scene synopsis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.177.4.109 ( talk) 14:36, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
Shouldn't the section on "Freemasonry and the Magic Flute" mention the ongoing rivalry between the Freemasons and the Catholic Church? Maria Teresa's opposition to the Lodge was certainly partly a result of her adherence to Roman Catholicism. I am linking the phrase "Roman Catholic" to the wiki article on the papal prohibition on Catholics joining the lodge. Goblinshark17 ( talk) 01:41, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
I worked for a short time as a copy-editor, and as I recall, foreign-language quotations should be italicized. N'est-ce pas? Goblinshark17 ( talk) 17:37, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I have inserted a note into the SYNOPSIS saying that the second-act trio "Soll ich dich teurer, nicht mehr sehn?" is sometimes performed earlier in the act. For the record, this is done to preserve the continuity of Pamina's suicidal feelings. With the conventional placement of the trio as described in the synopsis, she has the scene where Tamino refuses to talk to her, she sings the aria "Ach ich fuhl's" about how miserable she is, and then there's the trio, in which Sarastro explains that the trials will continue and she and Tamino sing lovingly to each other, and then in the second act finale she's suicidal AGAIN. That makes no sense--her suicidal feelings and fears that Tamino no longer loves her should have been resolved by the trio. However if the trio is performed earlier in the act, then she goes straight from her sadness aria to her suicidal appearance in the finale, with no intervening appearances, which makes good dramatic sense. I didn't put this explanation in the note in the synopsis, so I'm putting it here instead. Goblinshark17 ( talk) 17:32, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
The three spirits are not "three boys"; they are three SPIRITS, often played by boys, but not always. See for instance Furtwangler's recordings (1949 and 1950); also Klemperer's recording. In these recordings the spirits are played by adult women.
Also, the sentence "[The protagonists] escape all dangers by using the magical instruments (flute, bells)" or whatever it said, was WRONG. They escape the danger of the trial-by-silence, not by using the instruments, but just by shutting up. So I've removed that sentence. SingingZombie ( talk) 00:39, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
However, I'm not going to meddle with the article page, because really this is just a minor detail and not worth a war on semantics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.203.102.81 ( talk) 18:35, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
now installed at Libretto of The Magic Flute; too long to be part of this main article. I'll put a summary of it in the main article. Opus33 ( talk) 16:43, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
I put in this phrase long ago, before I realized that there is a great deal of scholarly doubt concerning the traditional narrative of the end of Mozart's life (which posits gradually-mounting illness, poverty, fear, despair ...). The emerging modern alternative (e.g. Zaslaw, Biba, Halliwell, Wolff) is, more or less, that in 1791 Mozart was having a great year until he was suddenly felled by a horrible contagious disease that spread through Vienna. For discussion, see Death of Mozart. It will probably never be possible to sort out these two scenarios with certainty, but I've reworded the phrasing in this article on how Mozart reacted to the success of The Magic Flute to say simply that he was really pleased (that much seems certain). It seems unnecessarily speculative to suggest that Mozart's spirits in October 1791 were in need of lifting. Opus33 ( talk) 16:43, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
I've moved the following material here.
---
"==The Magic Flute and Freemasonry=="
The Magic Flute is noted for its prominent Masonic elements. Schikaneder and Mozart were Masons and lodge brothers, as was Ignaz Alberti, engraver and printer of the first libretto. [1] The opera is also influenced by Enlightenment philosophy, and can be regarded as an allegory advocating enlightened absolutism. The Queen of the Night represents a dangerous form of obscurantism or, according to some, the anti-Masonic Roman Catholic Empress Maria Theresa, [2] or, according to others, the contemporary Roman Catholic Church itself, which was also strongly anti-Masonic. [3] Her antagonist Sarastro symbolises the enlightened sovereign who rules according to principles based on reason, wisdom, and nature. The story itself portrays the education of mankind, progressing from chaos (the serpent) through religious superstition (the Queen and Ladies) to rationalistic enlightenment (Sarastro and Priests), by means of trial (Tamino) and error (Papageno), ultimately to make "the Earth a heavenly kingdom, and mortals like the gods" ("Dann ist die Erd' ein Himmelreich, und Sterbliche den Göttern gleich"); this couplet is sung in the finales to both acts.
---
For helpful discussion of the "overselling" of the Masonic hypothesis, with particularly critical discussion of the allegorical interpretations, see Buch, David J. (2004) Die Zauberflöte, masonic opera, and other fairy tales. Acta Musicologica 76:193-219. Available on line at [6]. Also, for a very revealing review suggesting that the primary originator of the Masonic-allegory theory, Jacques Chailley, was just an incredibly sloppy scholar, see [7]. Opus33 ( talk) 20:37, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
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The article currently says:
Two men in armor lead in Tamino. They recite one of the formal creeds of Isis and Osiris, promising enlightenment to those who successfully overcome the fear of death ("Der, welcher wandert diese Strasse voll Beschwerden"). This recitation takes the musical form of a Baroque chorale prelude, to the tune of Martin Luther's hymn "Ach Gott, vom Himmel sieh darein" (Oh God, look down from heaven)
First of all, the article gives no source or reference for this claim. Now, I go to YouTube and search, and I get a very different melody listed as Luther's setting. See/hear, for instance, this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1HNLoIKcC8
And this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRpkaEdiNgI
Mozart appears to have cribbed the melody, not from Martin Luther, but from a setting by Bach, whose setting seems to be inspired by, but different from, Luther's. See/hear this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCUCzGRQYIs
And this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR3GPxM6vzo
There are also other settings by Bach which don't seem to be the tune Mozart used, such as, for instance, this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0YLRovPF6A
Of course, all this is my own original research, which is why I'm only putting it here in the TALK page. But at very least, the article should include a source for the claim--apparently false--that the Two Armed Men's anthem is based on Luther's own music, and the claim should probably be changed to mention Bach, rather than Luther, as the original composer of the anthem's melody.
So I'm putting in an "Original Research" tag, and maybe I'll also change the unsourced incorrect mention of Luther as the composer, and replace it with an unsourced CORRECT mention of Bach, and try to come back later with a good source.
HandsomeMrToad ( talk) 01:46, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
Papageno effect says:
According to this article:
Which is true? Is the Papageno effect misnamed or the plot summary misses that Papageno scene? -- Error ( talk) 10:47, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
In attemtping a rescue for On this day I've removed a couple of unreferenced paragraphs. They're a bit OR in tone but the Spiel- vs. Sing fach observation is uncontroversial enough that a RS should be available somewhere in the literature (I note though that for myself and the QotN's I've known the extreme F's are a pleasure rather than a particular challenge).
In composing the opera, Mozart evidently kept in mind the skills of the singers intended for the premiere, which included both virtuoso and ordinary comic actors asked to sing for the occasion. Thus, the vocal lines for Papageno—sung by Schikaneder himself—and Monostatos ( Johann Joseph Nouseul) are often stated first in the strings so the singer can find his pitch, and are frequently doubled by instruments. In contrast, Mozart's sister-in-law Josepha Hofer, who premiered the role of the Queen of the Night, evidently needed little such help: this role is famous for its difficulty. In ensembles, Mozart skillfully combined voices of different ability levels.
The vocal ranges of two of the original singers for whom Mozart tailored his music have posed challenges for many singers who have since recreated their roles. Both arias of the Queen of the Night, " O zittre nicht, mein lieber Sohn" and " Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen" require high F6, rare in opera. At the low end, the part of Sarastro, premiered by Franz Xaver Gerl, includes a conspicuous F2 in a few locations.
Sparafucil ( talk) 02:43, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
Act 2 has 10 scenes. Currently Scene 6 is labeled "Finale". Is this an error? Mgnbar ( talk) 19:53, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
It is fine to have such detailed account of what happens on stage, but could we also have a real synopsis in the "synopsis" section, i.e. A brief outline or general view, as of a subject or written work; an abstract or a summary.. Brief, abstract, summary (emphasis mine).
I could do it but I dare not, this for sure has been done by recognized critics and I am not knowledgeable enough to have sources. 2A01:E0A:1DC:4570:787C:FFC7:3E05:E252 ( talk) 19:57, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
The recording used here is not so great. There are a lot of pitch problems with the singer's performance. Here is the same singer in a performance in which she does a substantially better job:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqZa2KYuNsU
Perhaps it should be substituted. 222.116.223.84 ( talk) 16:01, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
I have made a number of changes to the Synopsis to bring it into line with the score. There is no suggestion there that the Three Boys are "child-spirits" - or that animals dance in the finale! (Perhaps that was done somewhere at a children's matinee.)
The 2013 DuQuette talk on Masonic influence [4] seems authoritative and might be cited further. -- Hugh7 ( talk) 09:11, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
References
If not, what would a better fitting name be. It just personally doesn't feel encyclopedic enough to me the way it is now. Nowhere Box ( talk) 22:20, 29 December 2023 (UTC)