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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
I've changed "set during World War I" to "set against a background inspired by World War I", as both Branagh and his production designer Laurence Harvey have said that it isn't meant to BE the Great War, just to remind us of it.
I have listed the characters here, but the voice types in the score I got the characteras from seem a bit odd. For example I doubt that the third lady is actually a soprano (due to the low nature of the role). So, I consolted another score (also German) http://www.dlib.indiana.edu/variations/scores/vaa0618/large/index.html and found the same labels. Perhaps this is a German system that I am not farmiliar with. Either way, I think that they SHOULD be labled the way they are cast in America. Anyone with a good idea of what that would be is welcome to do that.
Also, perhaps the characters should be listed in English with the German in ( ) insted of the way i have done it, as this is a English encyclopedia.
Does anyone konw of any other sites with analysis of the Magic Flute (Die Zauberflote)
Wikipedia:Naming conventions says, "Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly used in English than the English form." In my experience, English speakers are more likely to speak of "The Magic Flute" than "Die Zauberflöte". Shouldn't the page be at the common English title? (See also Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English).)
Unless anyone objects in the next day or so, I think I'll move the page to The Magic Flute. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 04:32, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm sad to say that the current audio example (Der Hölle Rache) does not reach very high standards. Having one would still be nice, though. Are there perhaps another one we can use? Bromskloss 21:04, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree. The current audio example is terrible. Dave Foster 20:46, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I just listened to both linked files. The first is from a live performance by Sandra Partridge (Thailand, 2006). The second version, sung a cappella by Rachel Smith is not very good at all. I've listened to many much better recordings on the web. My current "favorites" are those by Diana Damrau and Sumi Jo, available at youtube.com (and another by Sumi Jo on a CD). AdderUser 14:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
The result of the debate was move. — Nightstallion (?) 00:56, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
WP:Use English as per policy. This would be especially timely, since the Metropolitan Opera broadcast it last week. No, Cosí Fan Tutte should not be moved. :} The Magic Flute, Ingmar Bergman's film, should be moved to TMF(fim) or TMF(Bergman).
Branagh is also doing a film, so disambiguate them now is probably a good idea. Septentrionalis 06:35, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. In the world of opera an opus is generally called by its original name, because it is almost always the language it is performed in. Performances in English translations (I don't know why) have become uncommon. So the Metropolitan Opera shows "Die Zauberflöte", "Il Barbiere di Siviglia", "Die Entführung aus dem Serail", "La Forza del Destino" etc. If we chose, however, to change it to its English name, this rule should apply to all other foreign operas listed in Wikipedia as well. Currently you'll find Götterdämmerung, Der Rosenkavalier, Il Turco in Italia, La Traviata, Orfeo, Il Pastor Fido, Der Freischütz and so on. Those would have to be renamed, too. Teodorico 08:33, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I regret that a straw man may be seen in this discussion. I said I didn't want to move Cosí Fan Tutte. I don't want to move La Traviata or La Bohême either. Septentrionalis 20:20, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I hope you are not referring to me with your remark about "the straw man", Septentrionalis. If you feel that way, I am very sorry, but I was just trying to make a point with La Traviata by applying the same standard. And if the Met does, I thought I was in good company. But if the others agree with you, that’s perfectly fine with me. You called for a discussion, I made my point. Teodorico 15:04, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I notice that the plot summary avoids certain controversial aspects of the opera: the strong hostility of Sarastro's temple to women, the existence of slavery in the temple, and the fact that Monostatos is black and feels like a racial outcast. Giving these an appropriate treatment is tricky. The plot summary probably isn't the place to deal with them. Perhaps someone with knowledge of published works addressing these issues might add a section on them? I suppose I could, but someone with more specialized knowledge could do a better job. GMcGath 19:09, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm not a singer, so I don't know the exact nomenclature they use with regard to pitches. But shouldn't it be f7, not f3. The system I'm used to is middle C being c4 (though I know that some in the electronic world label it as c3 or something). But i've never heard of it being called c0 before, which would indeed make Der Hölle reach an f3. Is this a system only sopranos use? Am I even making sense?? Crabbyass 16:55, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
The article currently says: "It premiered in Vienna on September 30, 1791. The premiere was at an out-of-town but not obscure theater."
If the premiere was in Vienna, how could it have been "out-of-town"? -- Metropolitan90 02:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Vienna has expanded since 1791. The Globe Theatre was out-of-town too, but it is not misleading to say that Shakespeare put on his plays at London. The name of the theater would be useful though. Septentrionalis 18:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
The synopsis puts Papageno's attempted suicide immediately after Pamina's, and before the two helmetted men lead Tamino into the temple. In fact, the Papageno-3 Boys-Papagena scene is after the Trial by Fire and Water, and immediately before the Monostatos/Queen scene.
I am guessing that when the Monostatos/Queen scene is omitted, they also performed the Papageno scene out of order to avoid an extra pair of scene changes and keep all the inside-the-temple scenes in sequence... but that's not what the score says and not how it is performed today. TaigaBridge 25 July 2006
The paragraph on voice types (fach) introduced by John1987 on October 18 needs either to be rewritten because it suffers from muddled logic and grammar, or removed because it doesn't add anything to the knowledge about this specific work - a similar paragraph about voice types could be inserted into almost every opera. Michael Bednarek 03:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Does an encylopedia really need anecdotes like the one in Noted Arias about Sarastro by GB Shaw? And if so, shouldn't they be a) sourced; b) correct? Michael Bednarek 00:49, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I think hat there should be something about the confusion concerning Salieri, and the story behind him and the Opera.
I have removed the following statement
In the Gilbert and Sullivan operetta Iolanthe, Sir Arthur Sullivan included a musical homage to the Queen of the Night's aria when introducing the character of the Queen of the Fairies.
Something similar appeared on the Iolanthe page in November 2005, and was removed following discussion on its Talk page [1]. Feel free to put it back here and/or there if there is any evidence to support this claim. -- GuillaumeTell 14:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Could someone explain the relevance of this addition:
03:00, 27 January 2007 Dpwkbw m (The Tempest)
The Tempest - A century & a half earlier, Shakespeare was dealing with virtuous kingship in The Tempest (c. 1611).
I think it should be deleted.
Michael Bednarek
05:54, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Not enough space (and a typo) in the edit summary for my reversion of the last change. What I wanted to say was that "zittre" is not a noun (which is capitalised in German) but a verb (which isn't capitalised in German), and that's why it shouldn't have a capital Z. -- GuillaumeTell 11:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
The background section currently states that the vocal lines for Pamina and the Queen of the Night "demand decent operatic ability", which sounds rather off. As we know, the Queen of the Night parts are among the most difficult ever demanded of a performer. It also sounds odd for one to "demand" mere decency. Jlandahl 19:31, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Flipping through my score, I found conspicuous low F's for Sarastro in only two places: the last note of "O Isis und Osiris" and the word "doch", addressed to Pamina in the finale of the first act. So I reworded the discussion to reflect this. If I have carelessly missed any others please point it out. Opus33 16:11, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Depends what "conspicuous" means, I guess... the trio "Soll ich dich Theurer nicht mehr sehn?" has two, in bar 37 and at the end (the latter is underneath Pamina and Tamino's voices, but still not doubled in the orchestra.) There is another one in the middle of Isis und Osiris, well hidden, and an F# near the end of Act I. Diesen Heil'gen Hallen goes down only to F#. TaigaBridge 06:04, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I seem to be involved in a slow-motion revert war re. whether the infobox with a picture of Mozart and a list of all his operas should be at the top, or the bottom, of this article. I advocate "bottom", because:
Sincerely, Opus33 15:48, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Hello, this seems to be a recap of the infobox wars, happening in various parts of the WP (particularly involving science or scholarship). I.e. the people who are contributing factual content, and trying to find the optimum way to organize this content, run into editors who (misguidedly, in my opinion) put all the emphasis on formatting.
May I clarify a bit? Imagine for a moment there is no infobox, and I'm trying to write a cogent lead paragraph. I would be completely nuts to start out like this:
But that's exactly what the infobox, in effect, forces me to do.
In fact, any sensible editor would never include such a paragraph at all; rather, the correct thing would be to add a link to List of Mozart operas. I ask: why should normal editorial standards fly out the window, just because we're dealing with graphics? Sincerely, Opus33 19:41, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
The Magic Flute (German Die Zauberflöte, K. 620) is an opera in two acts composed in 1791 by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart to a libretto by Emanuel Schikaneder. The work is in the form of a Singspiel, a popular form which included both singing and spoken dialogue.
As there is a clear consensus for having the navigation box at the top I have replaced it. I have also tried to rearrange the other illustrations a bit so that the page as a whole looks better. Comments? -- Kleinzach 05:53, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Does it really matter where it lies, upper right as a vertical box or at the bottom as a horizontal box? If you put it at the bottom, I don't think anyone would really see it, so I suppose that's one argument for putting it at the top. I don't think anyone really reads it as unnecessary information (I don't; it just makes navigation between his different operas easier). -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 06:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
If you add in the controversies, you should also point out that many stagings try to avoid the offensive elements in the libretto by changing some of the dialogue or details of the staging. Examples: (1) Sarastro is often identified as the Queen's estranged husband and the father of Pamina, which makes his "abduction" of her more palatable. (2) Monostatos is played as a white man, and all references to the "Moor" are deleted. (3) The priests decide in the end that Pamina deserves to be treated as an equal, thus abandoning their earlier contempt for women. Also, some stagings (including the Bergman movie) have Sarastro abdicate his power in the end, making him seem less an arbitrary tyrant. According to Mozart scholar Edward Dent, this detail was suggested by the great German writer Goethe. CharlesTheBold ( talk) 01:24, 17 March 2008 (UTC) In many stagings
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
I've changed "set during World War I" to "set against a background inspired by World War I", as both Branagh and his production designer Laurence Harvey have said that it isn't meant to BE the Great War, just to remind us of it.
I have listed the characters here, but the voice types in the score I got the characteras from seem a bit odd. For example I doubt that the third lady is actually a soprano (due to the low nature of the role). So, I consolted another score (also German) http://www.dlib.indiana.edu/variations/scores/vaa0618/large/index.html and found the same labels. Perhaps this is a German system that I am not farmiliar with. Either way, I think that they SHOULD be labled the way they are cast in America. Anyone with a good idea of what that would be is welcome to do that.
Also, perhaps the characters should be listed in English with the German in ( ) insted of the way i have done it, as this is a English encyclopedia.
Does anyone konw of any other sites with analysis of the Magic Flute (Die Zauberflote)
Wikipedia:Naming conventions says, "Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly used in English than the English form." In my experience, English speakers are more likely to speak of "The Magic Flute" than "Die Zauberflöte". Shouldn't the page be at the common English title? (See also Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English).)
Unless anyone objects in the next day or so, I think I'll move the page to The Magic Flute. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 04:32, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm sad to say that the current audio example (Der Hölle Rache) does not reach very high standards. Having one would still be nice, though. Are there perhaps another one we can use? Bromskloss 21:04, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree. The current audio example is terrible. Dave Foster 20:46, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I just listened to both linked files. The first is from a live performance by Sandra Partridge (Thailand, 2006). The second version, sung a cappella by Rachel Smith is not very good at all. I've listened to many much better recordings on the web. My current "favorites" are those by Diana Damrau and Sumi Jo, available at youtube.com (and another by Sumi Jo on a CD). AdderUser 14:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
The result of the debate was move. — Nightstallion (?) 00:56, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
WP:Use English as per policy. This would be especially timely, since the Metropolitan Opera broadcast it last week. No, Cosí Fan Tutte should not be moved. :} The Magic Flute, Ingmar Bergman's film, should be moved to TMF(fim) or TMF(Bergman).
Branagh is also doing a film, so disambiguate them now is probably a good idea. Septentrionalis 06:35, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. In the world of opera an opus is generally called by its original name, because it is almost always the language it is performed in. Performances in English translations (I don't know why) have become uncommon. So the Metropolitan Opera shows "Die Zauberflöte", "Il Barbiere di Siviglia", "Die Entführung aus dem Serail", "La Forza del Destino" etc. If we chose, however, to change it to its English name, this rule should apply to all other foreign operas listed in Wikipedia as well. Currently you'll find Götterdämmerung, Der Rosenkavalier, Il Turco in Italia, La Traviata, Orfeo, Il Pastor Fido, Der Freischütz and so on. Those would have to be renamed, too. Teodorico 08:33, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I regret that a straw man may be seen in this discussion. I said I didn't want to move Cosí Fan Tutte. I don't want to move La Traviata or La Bohême either. Septentrionalis 20:20, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I hope you are not referring to me with your remark about "the straw man", Septentrionalis. If you feel that way, I am very sorry, but I was just trying to make a point with La Traviata by applying the same standard. And if the Met does, I thought I was in good company. But if the others agree with you, that’s perfectly fine with me. You called for a discussion, I made my point. Teodorico 15:04, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I notice that the plot summary avoids certain controversial aspects of the opera: the strong hostility of Sarastro's temple to women, the existence of slavery in the temple, and the fact that Monostatos is black and feels like a racial outcast. Giving these an appropriate treatment is tricky. The plot summary probably isn't the place to deal with them. Perhaps someone with knowledge of published works addressing these issues might add a section on them? I suppose I could, but someone with more specialized knowledge could do a better job. GMcGath 19:09, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm not a singer, so I don't know the exact nomenclature they use with regard to pitches. But shouldn't it be f7, not f3. The system I'm used to is middle C being c4 (though I know that some in the electronic world label it as c3 or something). But i've never heard of it being called c0 before, which would indeed make Der Hölle reach an f3. Is this a system only sopranos use? Am I even making sense?? Crabbyass 16:55, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
The article currently says: "It premiered in Vienna on September 30, 1791. The premiere was at an out-of-town but not obscure theater."
If the premiere was in Vienna, how could it have been "out-of-town"? -- Metropolitan90 02:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Vienna has expanded since 1791. The Globe Theatre was out-of-town too, but it is not misleading to say that Shakespeare put on his plays at London. The name of the theater would be useful though. Septentrionalis 18:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
The synopsis puts Papageno's attempted suicide immediately after Pamina's, and before the two helmetted men lead Tamino into the temple. In fact, the Papageno-3 Boys-Papagena scene is after the Trial by Fire and Water, and immediately before the Monostatos/Queen scene.
I am guessing that when the Monostatos/Queen scene is omitted, they also performed the Papageno scene out of order to avoid an extra pair of scene changes and keep all the inside-the-temple scenes in sequence... but that's not what the score says and not how it is performed today. TaigaBridge 25 July 2006
The paragraph on voice types (fach) introduced by John1987 on October 18 needs either to be rewritten because it suffers from muddled logic and grammar, or removed because it doesn't add anything to the knowledge about this specific work - a similar paragraph about voice types could be inserted into almost every opera. Michael Bednarek 03:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Does an encylopedia really need anecdotes like the one in Noted Arias about Sarastro by GB Shaw? And if so, shouldn't they be a) sourced; b) correct? Michael Bednarek 00:49, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I think hat there should be something about the confusion concerning Salieri, and the story behind him and the Opera.
I have removed the following statement
In the Gilbert and Sullivan operetta Iolanthe, Sir Arthur Sullivan included a musical homage to the Queen of the Night's aria when introducing the character of the Queen of the Fairies.
Something similar appeared on the Iolanthe page in November 2005, and was removed following discussion on its Talk page [1]. Feel free to put it back here and/or there if there is any evidence to support this claim. -- GuillaumeTell 14:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Could someone explain the relevance of this addition:
03:00, 27 January 2007 Dpwkbw m (The Tempest)
The Tempest - A century & a half earlier, Shakespeare was dealing with virtuous kingship in The Tempest (c. 1611).
I think it should be deleted.
Michael Bednarek
05:54, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Not enough space (and a typo) in the edit summary for my reversion of the last change. What I wanted to say was that "zittre" is not a noun (which is capitalised in German) but a verb (which isn't capitalised in German), and that's why it shouldn't have a capital Z. -- GuillaumeTell 11:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
The background section currently states that the vocal lines for Pamina and the Queen of the Night "demand decent operatic ability", which sounds rather off. As we know, the Queen of the Night parts are among the most difficult ever demanded of a performer. It also sounds odd for one to "demand" mere decency. Jlandahl 19:31, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Flipping through my score, I found conspicuous low F's for Sarastro in only two places: the last note of "O Isis und Osiris" and the word "doch", addressed to Pamina in the finale of the first act. So I reworded the discussion to reflect this. If I have carelessly missed any others please point it out. Opus33 16:11, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Depends what "conspicuous" means, I guess... the trio "Soll ich dich Theurer nicht mehr sehn?" has two, in bar 37 and at the end (the latter is underneath Pamina and Tamino's voices, but still not doubled in the orchestra.) There is another one in the middle of Isis und Osiris, well hidden, and an F# near the end of Act I. Diesen Heil'gen Hallen goes down only to F#. TaigaBridge 06:04, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I seem to be involved in a slow-motion revert war re. whether the infobox with a picture of Mozart and a list of all his operas should be at the top, or the bottom, of this article. I advocate "bottom", because:
Sincerely, Opus33 15:48, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Hello, this seems to be a recap of the infobox wars, happening in various parts of the WP (particularly involving science or scholarship). I.e. the people who are contributing factual content, and trying to find the optimum way to organize this content, run into editors who (misguidedly, in my opinion) put all the emphasis on formatting.
May I clarify a bit? Imagine for a moment there is no infobox, and I'm trying to write a cogent lead paragraph. I would be completely nuts to start out like this:
But that's exactly what the infobox, in effect, forces me to do.
In fact, any sensible editor would never include such a paragraph at all; rather, the correct thing would be to add a link to List of Mozart operas. I ask: why should normal editorial standards fly out the window, just because we're dealing with graphics? Sincerely, Opus33 19:41, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
The Magic Flute (German Die Zauberflöte, K. 620) is an opera in two acts composed in 1791 by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart to a libretto by Emanuel Schikaneder. The work is in the form of a Singspiel, a popular form which included both singing and spoken dialogue.
As there is a clear consensus for having the navigation box at the top I have replaced it. I have also tried to rearrange the other illustrations a bit so that the page as a whole looks better. Comments? -- Kleinzach 05:53, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Does it really matter where it lies, upper right as a vertical box or at the bottom as a horizontal box? If you put it at the bottom, I don't think anyone would really see it, so I suppose that's one argument for putting it at the top. I don't think anyone really reads it as unnecessary information (I don't; it just makes navigation between his different operas easier). -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 06:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
If you add in the controversies, you should also point out that many stagings try to avoid the offensive elements in the libretto by changing some of the dialogue or details of the staging. Examples: (1) Sarastro is often identified as the Queen's estranged husband and the father of Pamina, which makes his "abduction" of her more palatable. (2) Monostatos is played as a white man, and all references to the "Moor" are deleted. (3) The priests decide in the end that Pamina deserves to be treated as an equal, thus abandoning their earlier contempt for women. Also, some stagings (including the Bergman movie) have Sarastro abdicate his power in the end, making him seem less an arbitrary tyrant. According to Mozart scholar Edward Dent, this detail was suggested by the great German writer Goethe. CharlesTheBold ( talk) 01:24, 17 March 2008 (UTC) In many stagings