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An experienced Wikipedian who monitors Article for Deletion discussions has convinced me to stop recommending deletion of this article. I agree with his view of the current state of the article: it looks like POV-pushing, and the article needs to be renamed to the title of the book by Snyderman and Rothman and to be rewritten almost from the ground up. Some of the sources now cited in the article will still be useful. It will be very useful for other editors to have the actual article by S and R, and their actual book, at hand as editing continues, as I do. Other reliable sources related to the topic will also be useful, and all of you are welcome to recommend more sources. See you here and on the article page itself as the AfD fizzles out for lack of support and the article editing resumes. -- WeijiBaikeBianji ( talk) 14:59, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
Currently, the last paragraph reads as follows:
Sociologists such as Irving Horowitz and Peter Conrad have made comments on the role of the media. Writing partly in his capacity as managing editor of the publishing company, Transaction Publishers, that had published the Snyderman-Rothman book and more recently a controversial book by hereditarian researcher J. Philippe Rushton, Horowitz (1995) pointed out that researchers into heredity and intelligence like Rothman "sought media attention as a mechanism for making their policy views known." Conrad (1997) noted that Snyderman and Rothman echoed the claims of Richard Herrnstein, another psychologist of the hereditarian school, in claiming that "the media, relative to the scientific experts surveyed, were overly critical of testing and the heritability of IQ and that it continually manifested an environmental bias in explanations of IQ differences between blacks and whites." Conrad on the contrary suggests that this has been the reaction of the press every time the hereditarian views have become the centre of media attention and that the resulting "avalanche of commentary pieces" has inadvertently promulgated the original message, giving it "unintentional credence".
The paragraph misrepresents the sources it uses, because in the sources:
- Horowitz does not say that he writes in the capacity of S & R's publisher
- Horowitz does not mention S & R's study or book
- S & R are not even mentioned in the same sentence in the Horowitz piece, and when they are briefly mentioned, it is not directly connected the book or the study
- the last sentence in the paragraph makes it look like as if Conrad were talking about S & R's work, when he is in fact talking about
The Bell Curve.
According to WP:NOR, to "demonstrate that you are not adding original research, you must be able to cite reliable published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the material as presented". As Horowitz's article does not mention the subject of this article, i.e. S & R's book and study, Horowitz's article is not directly related to the topic and therefore cannot be used as a source. At best, Horowitz's claims with regard to Rothman (and only him, not Snyderman) are indirectly related to the topic, but that is not enough.
The only part of the paragraph that does not violate any Wikipedia content policies is the following:
Conrad (1997) noted that Snyderman and Rothman echoed the claims of Richard Herrnstein, another psychologist of the hereditarian school, in claiming that "the media, relative to the scientific experts surveyed, were overly critical of testing and the heritability of IQ and that it continually manifested an environmental bias in explanations of IQ differences between blacks and whites."
We will have to either retain only this bit of the paragraph, or remove it entirely. I think it should be removed entirely. Any comments before I do so?-- Victor Chmara ( talk) 12:08, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Horowitz's article is partially available here [1]. That version contains all that he has to say about S & R, namely:
To be sure, in a thoughtful and sympathetic early review of the Rushton book in The National Review (September 12, 1994), Mark Snyderman wamed of the barrage to come. "Philippe Rushton has written his own epitaph. Any genetic predisposition toward the defense of one's race only adds to the near impossibility of rational response to the scientific study of race in a world that has seen the Holocaust and racial subjugation...Rushton's work may be ignored by the fearful, damned by the liberals, and misused by the racists. It is unlikely to be truly understood by anyone." Subsequent events have proved Snyderman prophetic; although Malcom Brown's review in The New York Times Sunday Book Review made a valiant effort at understanding and empathy.
...
In the 1960s there was the work of the late William Shockley, in the seventies that of Arthur Jensen, and in the 1980s that of a group of people much closer to media studies, such as Stanley Rothman. These individuals sought media attention as a mechanism for making their policy views known.
Horowitz may be knowledgeable about this topic, but in that article he does not directly say anything about it. If you think Herrnstein's involvement should be mentioned, then we could use the short version of Conrad's argument quoted above, and mention Herrnstein's involvement in that context.-- Victor Chmara ( talk) 19:52, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Someone objects. I noted above I think that the analysis that there is a sourcing problem for that paragraph is incorrect. P.S. The new sections were added in light of the Wikipedia guidelines for articles about books (which you are all encouraged to read). I or you or any other editor could move around existing content to get the article's content into that order, to prepare for further improvement of the article on the basis of good sources like the Horowitz article. -- WeijiBaikeBianji ( talk) 01:30, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
While we discuss other edits, I'll refer to WikiProject Books for information about how to put together a Wikipedia article about a book. You are all welcome to advise me on how to do this right. -- WeijiBaikeBianji ( talk) 13:54, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
The figure I removed appears to be synthesis, and misrepresents the data by excluding the number of people who did not respond to the question. aprock ( talk) 17:55, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
The phrase "The study found that psychologists were not in agreement about the heritability of intelligence" conflicts with the following sentence which states "almost all felt that it played a substantial role" and is WP:OR. BlackHades ( talk) 17:17, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
![]() | The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the intersection of race/ethnicity and human abilities and behaviour, which is a contentious topic. Please consult the procedures and edit carefully. |
![]() | Arbitration Ruling on Race and Intelligence The article The IQ Controversy, the Media and Public Policy, along with other articles relating to the area of conflict (namely, the intersection of race/ethnicity and human abilities and behaviour, broadly construed), is currently subject to active arbitration remedies, described in a 2010 Arbitration Committee case where the articulated principles included:
If you are a new editor, or an editor unfamiliar with the situation, please follow the above guidelines. You may also wish to review the full arbitration case page. If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. |
![]() | This article was nominated for
deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:
|
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||
|
|
||
This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
An experienced Wikipedian who monitors Article for Deletion discussions has convinced me to stop recommending deletion of this article. I agree with his view of the current state of the article: it looks like POV-pushing, and the article needs to be renamed to the title of the book by Snyderman and Rothman and to be rewritten almost from the ground up. Some of the sources now cited in the article will still be useful. It will be very useful for other editors to have the actual article by S and R, and their actual book, at hand as editing continues, as I do. Other reliable sources related to the topic will also be useful, and all of you are welcome to recommend more sources. See you here and on the article page itself as the AfD fizzles out for lack of support and the article editing resumes. -- WeijiBaikeBianji ( talk) 14:59, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
Currently, the last paragraph reads as follows:
Sociologists such as Irving Horowitz and Peter Conrad have made comments on the role of the media. Writing partly in his capacity as managing editor of the publishing company, Transaction Publishers, that had published the Snyderman-Rothman book and more recently a controversial book by hereditarian researcher J. Philippe Rushton, Horowitz (1995) pointed out that researchers into heredity and intelligence like Rothman "sought media attention as a mechanism for making their policy views known." Conrad (1997) noted that Snyderman and Rothman echoed the claims of Richard Herrnstein, another psychologist of the hereditarian school, in claiming that "the media, relative to the scientific experts surveyed, were overly critical of testing and the heritability of IQ and that it continually manifested an environmental bias in explanations of IQ differences between blacks and whites." Conrad on the contrary suggests that this has been the reaction of the press every time the hereditarian views have become the centre of media attention and that the resulting "avalanche of commentary pieces" has inadvertently promulgated the original message, giving it "unintentional credence".
The paragraph misrepresents the sources it uses, because in the sources:
- Horowitz does not say that he writes in the capacity of S & R's publisher
- Horowitz does not mention S & R's study or book
- S & R are not even mentioned in the same sentence in the Horowitz piece, and when they are briefly mentioned, it is not directly connected the book or the study
- the last sentence in the paragraph makes it look like as if Conrad were talking about S & R's work, when he is in fact talking about
The Bell Curve.
According to WP:NOR, to "demonstrate that you are not adding original research, you must be able to cite reliable published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the material as presented". As Horowitz's article does not mention the subject of this article, i.e. S & R's book and study, Horowitz's article is not directly related to the topic and therefore cannot be used as a source. At best, Horowitz's claims with regard to Rothman (and only him, not Snyderman) are indirectly related to the topic, but that is not enough.
The only part of the paragraph that does not violate any Wikipedia content policies is the following:
Conrad (1997) noted that Snyderman and Rothman echoed the claims of Richard Herrnstein, another psychologist of the hereditarian school, in claiming that "the media, relative to the scientific experts surveyed, were overly critical of testing and the heritability of IQ and that it continually manifested an environmental bias in explanations of IQ differences between blacks and whites."
We will have to either retain only this bit of the paragraph, or remove it entirely. I think it should be removed entirely. Any comments before I do so?-- Victor Chmara ( talk) 12:08, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Horowitz's article is partially available here [1]. That version contains all that he has to say about S & R, namely:
To be sure, in a thoughtful and sympathetic early review of the Rushton book in The National Review (September 12, 1994), Mark Snyderman wamed of the barrage to come. "Philippe Rushton has written his own epitaph. Any genetic predisposition toward the defense of one's race only adds to the near impossibility of rational response to the scientific study of race in a world that has seen the Holocaust and racial subjugation...Rushton's work may be ignored by the fearful, damned by the liberals, and misused by the racists. It is unlikely to be truly understood by anyone." Subsequent events have proved Snyderman prophetic; although Malcom Brown's review in The New York Times Sunday Book Review made a valiant effort at understanding and empathy.
...
In the 1960s there was the work of the late William Shockley, in the seventies that of Arthur Jensen, and in the 1980s that of a group of people much closer to media studies, such as Stanley Rothman. These individuals sought media attention as a mechanism for making their policy views known.
Horowitz may be knowledgeable about this topic, but in that article he does not directly say anything about it. If you think Herrnstein's involvement should be mentioned, then we could use the short version of Conrad's argument quoted above, and mention Herrnstein's involvement in that context.-- Victor Chmara ( talk) 19:52, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Someone objects. I noted above I think that the analysis that there is a sourcing problem for that paragraph is incorrect. P.S. The new sections were added in light of the Wikipedia guidelines for articles about books (which you are all encouraged to read). I or you or any other editor could move around existing content to get the article's content into that order, to prepare for further improvement of the article on the basis of good sources like the Horowitz article. -- WeijiBaikeBianji ( talk) 01:30, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
While we discuss other edits, I'll refer to WikiProject Books for information about how to put together a Wikipedia article about a book. You are all welcome to advise me on how to do this right. -- WeijiBaikeBianji ( talk) 13:54, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
The figure I removed appears to be synthesis, and misrepresents the data by excluding the number of people who did not respond to the question. aprock ( talk) 17:55, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
The phrase "The study found that psychologists were not in agreement about the heritability of intelligence" conflicts with the following sentence which states "almost all felt that it played a substantial role" and is WP:OR. BlackHades ( talk) 17:17, 2 March 2013 (UTC)