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I'd like to post a translated version of the Nuremberg Laws. The translation was obtained from OldSin at http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=59074 and I created the image by blanking out the German.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nuremberg_laws_-_English_Translation.jpg
At some point it says "Saul Friedländer writes that: "Not one social group, not one religious community, not one scholarly institution or professional association in Germany and throughout Europe declared its solidarity with the Jews."[18] He writes that some Christian churches declared that converted Jews should be regarded as part of the flock, but even then only up to a point."
Which is completely not true as there is: /info/en/?search=List_of_Righteous_among_the_Nations_by_country and in particular: /info/en/?search=Polish_Righteous_among_the_Nations says that Polish resistance had a special division solely responsible for helping Jews.
I do not see why such a strongly untrue statement should not be rationalized. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lacek2 ( talk • contribs) 07:23, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
Just noticed, that Baltic countries are united as one in table with killed jews(by Lucy Dawidowicz). Why? I mean why later editors did blindly copied data, but didn't make new table based on source? I don't see the point there and I really would like to see each country as separate, because there is no real use for this data - and it is also misleading especially for people who can think only in single direction. There is completelly different situation in Estonia, where most of jews fled to USSR, different situation in Lithuania where most of jews were killed also because of proximity of German border and Latvia in the middle.
Also note the fact, that all of USSR occupied territories Baltic states, part of Poland(Western Belorussia, Western Ukraine, Bukovina - maybe more) and part of Romania(part of Moldavia known as Besarabia) had received the same fate of oppressions, mass killings and deportations(Finland luckily escaped this happy reunion of borders of Russian empire, by successfully resisting advance of Red Army, but loosing some territories), that were made by abnormally high percentage of JEWISH national NKVD&co(some people call them also CK - anyway all who are responsible) repressive agents WHO DID ORGANIZE MASSACRES AND EXPULSIONS in occupied territories in 1940 and who really didn't suffer fate of the rest of jews who vanished or survived in Holocaust, but did their job by commiting crimes of country, that was ally of Third Reich and therefore can not share status of victims and really shouldn't be included in any of tables as the survivors of Holocaust!!! And as a matter of fact there were jews who collaborated with NKVD and who coexisted in the same time and space continium with others who didn't wanted to cooperate with them - let's not judge ANY nation by the worst elements and let's not make stupid assumptions, that jews formed uniform ethnicity - there were religious jews, along with comunists and there were jews, who blended with locals - as a matter of fact my ancestor was catholic jew and not comunist, but suffered the same fate as others who were killed, only his wife and children escaped to leave neirotism in next generations.
This is unique fact, that does not appear in Holocaust theme - do you really think, that local people who lived side by side with jews(who were expelled from different Europe countries in previous centuries) and suffered together oppression from germans and Russian empire and organized together first resistance to Russian empire and nurtured together idea of national state(including the idea of jewish state in Israel) as a RIGHT OF EACH NATION TO BE INDEPENDENT just went frenzy, because they were bigger antisemites, than the rest of Europe(including Germany) who sent jews to extermination camps in eastern Europe and Germany? This is really sad event, where group of zealous murderers in blind rage helped nazis, but really there is no right to accuse or justify whole nations because all nations under nazis HAD collaborators for different reasons.
As a backstep in history there were 450 000 jewish soldiers in Russian empire army in WW1 - that is huge number and that later made core part of Red Army and jewish people HAD most top positions in all organizations till the Great Purges. After Great Purges NKVD had ~97% of russians in top positions, and in that light this is really strange, that there were so many low level rank NKVD agents of jewish ancestry, who were sent to USSR occupied territories to massacre and execute expulsion of local people(including local jews) at the same time preparing to attack Germany. It would be similary as germans used nongermans to exterminate others(not only jews, but also 9000 villages of belarussian) - oh wait, they did the same... Unluckily for USSR, Germany attacked USSR sooner, than USSR wanted to attack Germany and Holocaust in eastern Europe was a gift of USSR to a Third Reich - it is simply unbelievable, that SUCH LUCK exists! And interestingly enough Germany and USSR were allies, before Germany attacked USSR. I really mean Russia as USSR - it was always been legacy of Russian empire - gulags were nothing new - they were called catorga, also ethnic cleansings and oppressions were common in empire, same for secret police - all the same, just different names.
Returning to my initial question - there is enough data to give numbers for each of Baltic country from respective wiki pages of Holocaust theme of these countries. Well, THANKS WIKI - I really was fooled all these years, because I thought, that more jews were exterminated and not many escaped, but I modified table in this way:
Country | before USSR occupation/before Nazi occupation / "saved" by Siberia| estimated killed | % from all pre-war / % from Nazi occupied Estonia | 4 300 / 1 000 450 | 1 000 | 23 / 100 Latvia | 93 479 / 60 000 ~6 000 | 56 500 | 60 / 94 Lithuania | 208 000 - 210 000 * 4 000 - 7 000 | 195 000 - 196 000 * | 92 - 94
Germany at that time had reoccupied Klaipeda region(as a part of Molotov-Ribentrop pact), that helped to advance almost simultaneously into both Latvia and Lithuania, so it seems to me, that killings of Lithuanian jews went the same path, by forming police batallions, who helped germans to exterminate jews and it is almost impossible to imagine, that lithuanians would make any independent decisions.
Latvia was accepting jew refugees, that were fleeing from rest of Europe till end of 1938(well, germans did start to kill jews a bit later), because half of goverment were(ok, I'm exagerating, but some key positions were taken by) jews there at that time. Do not know about other countries of this buffer-zone if they did accept jew reffugees.
Note: difference before these occupations includes jews, who fled to USSR, when Nazi army advanced. Also some of that includes jews, who as some of todays russian "historian" says were "saved", by sending them to Siberia... o.O
I do think, that there should be same table entries for rest of USSR occupied territories(West Belorussia, West Ukraine and Bukovina, Besarabia), because percents killed do not match there already in each separate country and it would give view on USSR role of jew fate in these territores - also to note the difference from rest of Europe, who didn't suffer 3 occupations of 2 undemocratic regimes. USSR was expelled from Nations League, because of attack on Finland - they were prepared the same fate, because of aggreement of Molotov-Ribentrop between USSR and Third reich.
PS I blame for Holocaust germans. For pogroms - russians. They know why.
Interestingly enough latvians comparing before and after WW2 suffered the same % of people loss, as did jews, if taken account of total jews in the world and compared to total latvians. I really justify my statement on the basis, that nazis killed first jews, then gypsies, then christians - it wouldn't stop with jews(so Holocaust is NOT really only about jews - it is really about germans and what they intended to do with nongermans and not proper behaved germans, too) and before russians, germans were biggest enemies of latvians and had a long running feud of 700 year long oppression and russians in WW2 did there a Great Job, to change that. And USSR really didn't do anything different than Third Reich there - banished whole nations from their native countries - some of them suffered the same casualities with 40-60% loss of people.
sorry for such a long entry - but I'm really fed up about current trend of interpretation of history and that includes even jews, who have lost ability to see the Big picture — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.171.13.70 ( talk) 03:36, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
I have already pointed out above that the term "morally bankrupt" is clearly a POV and really has no place in such a discussion. When I was teaching Philosphy, albeit many years ago, at the very begining of the course, we examined the distinction between descriptive statements and prescriptive (normative) statements, or in lay terms between "is" and "ought". Using the definition of the Holocaust is a descriptive statment based on the use of the term today by a vast number of scholars (you only have to look at a shelf of books in the German history section of any library to get see this.) Scholars use the term today to distinguish the mass murder of Jews from other Nazi mass murders because there are important different characteristics of each of the mass murders, i.e. there is a difference between anti-semitism and anti-slavism, not to "forget the suffering of other groups". To lump all together makes it more difficult to understand what actually happened. It has been repeated over and over again in this discussion that the label used by historians is descriptive and not a judgement about more or less suffering by the different groups that were murdered by the Nazis. Nevertheless, the confusion between "is" and "ought" seems to keep rearing its head. I don't know what all the "Agreed"s above mean, but to make it clear, I do not agree to changing the definition that we have. Joel Mc ( talk) 16:59, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Boundarylayer ( talk • contribs) 14:03, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
The article brings ample evidence that the Holocaust was an official policy and set of actions by the nation of Germany. To refer to every state action as "Nazi Germany" diminishes this fact. It would be like referring to Britain's actions in WWII as "Conservative Britain" or the USA's entry into the war as "Democratic America". Rather, the term "Nazi Germany" should be restricted to references to the historical period, such as "Otto Dov Kulka, an expert on public opinion in Nazi Germany" - his expertise is on German public opinion during the historical period of the Nazis - i.e. Nazi Germany. In contrast "Various laws to remove the Jews from civil society, most prominently the Nuremberg Laws, were enacted in Nazi Germany years before the outbreak of World War II" should be rewritten as "Various laws to remove the Jews from civil society, most prominently the Nuremberg Laws, were enacted in Germany years before the outbreak of World War II". These didn't happen in Nazi Germany - they happened in Germany. Narc ( talk) 05:57, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
Regarding German support for the Holocaust, a recommended reading can be the classic Hannah Arendt's position: "Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil". -- Lysy talk 08:24, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
NSDAP was allied with DNVP and in elections they won over 51% of votes together. DNVP was a nationalistic, anti-semitic party as well, but more orientated to ideals of aristocracy and monarchism. Jake. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.170.143 ( talk) 12:41, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
An RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 17:40, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
The article states in an attempt at balance, "Most historians claim that the civilian population was unaware of the atrocities that were carried out, especially in the extermination camps, which were located outside of Germany in Nazi-occupied Europe." This is an unreferenced statement. I doubt that it's true. How do we know what "most historians" claim? How about citing even one historian who claims this? I didn't outright delete the sentence because I don't know enough to say it's false. But without at least one reference, I suggest it be deleted. -- Narc ( talk) 03:58, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
-everyone who trolls on wikipedia should be in the holocaust ten times over. -me — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Asfd666 (
talk •
contribs) 15:25, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
Agreed, the people who lived nearby definitely knew the concentration camps, and perhaps even the extermination camps, existed. I'm curious though, did the vast majority of Germans(those living in cities) also know of there existence? Probably not, though I haven't read anything to the contrary. In sum, I agree the following reference is worth adding - Hitler's War in the East, 1941-1945: A Critical Assessment (War and Genocide)by Rolf-Dieter Muller, Gerd R. Ueberschar, pp 238-40 should be added. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boundarylayer ( talk • contribs) 19:12, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
Agreed with the above. I think that reducing knowedge of the Shoah down to knowedge of the camps is not very helpful. Two points need to be made here. First, the vast majority of people in Germany did not know of the death camps in Poland or elsewhere during the war. However, that is not the same thing as being ignorant of the Holocaust. Officialy, Jews were deported for "resettlement in the East". Most Germans had no idea about where the Jews were actually going, but it is clear that most were vaguely aware that there was no "resettlment in the East", and instead the Jews were murdered, even if there were ignorant of the actual places and methods of murder. Take the White Rose group in Munich-a group of university students with no friends in high places or access to special information who were certainly well aware judging from their pamphlets that their government was committing genocide, even if they were a bit hazy about some of the details. Incidently, that proves how ridiculous Albert Speer's claim to be ignorant of the Shoah was. Strange that a cabinet minister could be less well informed of what his goverment was doing than a group of students with no access to state secrets.
Second, reducing knowedge of the Holocaust down to knowedge of the death camps totally ignores the Einsatzgruppen. Contrary to what countless Wehrmacht generals and apologists have tried to claim, the Wehrmacht was massively involved in the massacres of Jews in the Soviet Union. Almost every single German soldier who fought on the Eastern Front knew of the massacres committed by the Einsatzgruppen, and thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of soldiers witnessed the killings. The fact that German Army generals had to keep on issuing orders to their men telling them not to photograph the massacres of Jews speaks for itself. And that is not even considering that leading commanders like Manstein, Reichnau and Rundstedt to name only a few, issued statements to the men under their command justifying the massacres. Even if a German soldier did not see or hear about the massacres, they would heard the Severity Order read out to them by their officers, which spoke of the "harsh, but just punishment of Jewish sub-humanity". Given that millions of German soldiers fought on the Eastern Front, not only did the Army know of the Einsatzgruppen massacres, but so did most people back on the home front as well.
My suggestion would be to re-write that sentence to say that through most Germans did not know of the camps, they did know 1) of the mass shootings in the Soviet Union and 2) were aware in a general sense that people being deported for "resettlment in the East" were murdered. -- A.S. Brown ( talk) 00:05, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
Do people have objections if I pull out the books cited in the article to their own section and then use {{sfn}}s? Would make the cites less bulky, and save some duplication. Just a suggestion, I'm happy to do the donkey work. ColaXtra ( talk) 18:23, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Wondering about the table with header "The following figures from Lucy Dawidowicz show the annihilation of the Jewish population of Europe by (pre-war) country" since it notes that 22 Finnish Jews would have been annihilated while the context links this to Holocaust. Problem with this is that as per previous comments on this talk page - Talk:The_Holocaust/Archive_26#Edit_request_23rd_August_2011 those 23 (not 22) died in service while fighting against the Soviet Union. Not as victims of persecution or Holocaust. What i also find peculiar is that if i follow the link to the article which according to citations is used for the table it does not note any Finnish Jews as victims of Holocaust. So what is the rationale behind the inclusion of the Finnish Jews who died in service in to the table? For that matter if servicemen are to be included then why only Finnish servicemen are included and not for example for British Jews? - Wanderer602 ( talk) 08:01, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
Once I've finished fiddling with cites, which won't be long now, will people be prepared to either help out, or watch over me, getting the article up to 'Good'?? ColaXtra ( talk) 01:56, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
Trying to access 'Holocaust' redirects to this page. Should it not go to a page about holocausts, rather than redirecting the reader to a page dealing solely with one particular holocaust? kimdino ( talk) 17:35, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
1. Made the distinction between proper nouns and common noun as there seemed to be some confusion in past discussions. 2. Replaced unreferenced discussion about etymology with referenced explanation. 3. Replaced Britannica reference with Snyder reference. One should avoid referring to other encyclopedias if a scholarly reference is available. 4. Replaced Huffpost ref with Dawidowicz, who is a scholar. 5. Added second reference on Romani issue, Niewyk's chapter is from 2012 6. Rewrote third lede para: no real evidence of a "most common definition" before the 1960s, corrected total figures of Nazi mass murders in light of more up-to-date info. Joel Mc ( talk) 16:36, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
I've noticed that Colaxtra has been going through this article and replacing "the Holocaust" with "the Nazi genocide." I am confused as to the purpose of this. They are both the same thing, but the Holocaust is the name of this article and is the more commonly used form. -- Jethro B 19:05, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
Nazi or German Genocide is accurate I believe. Holocaust is a general term. I believe there is importance to attaching Nazi's or Germans, including Hitler, for responsibility of genocide. Cmguy777 ( talk) 01:39, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
I believe adding information on Mussolini's and the Italian Army's resistance to the deporation of Italian Jews by the German Army would be beneficial to the article up until Mussolini was deposed in 1943. However, Mussolini and the Italian Army massacred the Slavs. This needs to be mentioned also. I request to add a segment on the Italian opposition to Jewish deportation and the massacre of the Slavs. Cmguy777 ( talk) 23:04, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
The lede does not mention that 250 (250,000) Gypsies were murdered during the Holocaust.
Cmguy777 (
talk) 03:21, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
Yes, 250,000 is correct. Cmguy777 ( talk) 20:01, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
I removed the material from the lead because material does not belong in the lead unless it also appears elsewhere in the article. WP:LEAD. The lead is supposed to be a summary of the rest of the article, not a stand-alone repository for the facts deemed to be most important. -- Ninja Dianna ( Talk) 00:53, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
The article talks about Ukrainian police (Babyn Yar, etc.) but of Soviet POWs and Soviet losses. Either call the police "Soviet police" or separate out the numbers of POWs who were Ukrainiand (and the number of Ukrainians among the Soviet losses). To do otherwise is a practice of questionable integrity, even if it is accepted practice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zajchyk ( talk • contribs) 04:33, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
What is missing from this article is Italian and Japanese involvement of the Holocaust. I have already mentioned Mussolini protecting Jews at the same time keeping them in concentration camps. Mussolini, however, persecuted the Slavs. The Japanese interred Jews in Indonesia during WW II. Remember Germany was an Axis Power. The Holocaust was a world wide event. This is important. Not to mention the Japanese treatment of the Chinese. Cmguy777 ( talk) 20:07, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
I am not talking large edits here, but I believe the readers need to understand that Germany was part of an Axis power base. Jews were interned by Italians and Japanese. Recent research on Jewish internment by the Japanese needs to be added to the article. What is certain is that Hitler and the Nazis were heavily influencial in a world wide Holocaust. Cmguy777 ( talk) 01:23, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
I respectfully disagree. You have to understand Hitler and his master plan. Had he won WWII, he would have exterminated all the Jews in the earth. Living in a concentration camp is no picnic and the point is that Jews were seperated from other groups. This article can't rely on one Italian historian opinions. If Jews were interred by the Japanese and Italians then this needs to be in the article. The Jews or any minority group were under the threat of death if they escaped. Even in the good old U.S.A. thousands of Japanese were interred under the threat of death. Holocaust is a general term that implies Jewish internment, torture, and death. The Axis powers were worldwide and Hitler wanted to rule the world believing Germany was an eternal empire. Cmguy777 ( talk) 03:29, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm sort of surprised that given the references to the triangles in the individual subsections on groups such as Homosexuals, that the only link I can find to Nazi concentration camp badges is in the Holocaust template. While I could be bold, this is an article that I'm sure has a great deal of watching by experienced wikipedians and would like opinions. Naraht ( talk) 14:54, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
My understanding is that this article is about "The Holocaust" or the "Shoah". The lead states that: "The Holocaust (from the Greek ὁλόκαυστος holókaustos: hólos, "whole" and kaustós, "burnt")[2] also known as the Shoah (Hebrew: השואה, HaShoah, "catastrophe"; Yiddish: חורבן, Churben or Hurban, from the Hebrew for "destruction"), was the mass murder or genocide of approximately six million Jews during World War II, a programme of systematic state-sponsored murder by Nazi Germany, led by Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party, throughout German-occupied territory.[3][4] Of the nine million Jews who had resided in Europe before the Holocaust, approximately two-thirds were killed.[5] Over one million Jewish children were killed in the Holocaust, as were approximately two million Jewish women and three million Jewish men.[6][7]
Some scholars argue that the mass murder of the Romani and people with disabilities should be included in the definition,[8][9]... (then goes on to talk about "holocausts").
While it is appropriate to mention the other groups in the lead in the context of the wider use of the term "holocaust", the content of this article needs to be re-focussed on "The Holocaust", which basically includes only Jews. Given there are scholars that argue for the two aditional groups to be included, it is appropriate (IMO) to include a summary style section on the mass murder of Romani people with a (main) template linking to the Porajmos article, and a separate section covering the mass murder of people with disabilities. The rest are "a holocaust", not "The Holocaust", so unless scholarly sources can be located that explicitly argue for the inclusion of those groups in "The Holocaust", that content needs to be moved to appropriate articles. Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 00:21, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
I believe the focus on this article needs to be on the Jewish Holocaust, however, not to include the Romani or Slavs would be potentially misleading. The term Holocaust is a Greek word that article is titled "The Holocaust". I believe focusing only on the Jewish holocaust would deminish the slaughter of millions by Hitler and the Nazis. A seperate article that focuses only on the Jewish Holocaust titled Shoah could be written. Cmguy777 ( talk) 01:31, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
I agree with Cmguy777.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 12:49, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
"Essentially I agree with Dianna, and would be amused by Tulipsword's serious case of WP:HEAR if the subject wasn't so serious. The lead of the current The Holocaust article defines the Holocaust as "was the mass murder or genocide of approximately six million Jews during World War II, a programme of systematic state-sponsored murder by Nazi Germany, led by Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party, throughout German-occupied territory" and cites 10 separate sources supporting that definition, including from books written by:
among others
The article lead also indicates that some scholars include the mass murder of Romani people and people with disabilities in their definition of "The Holocaust" and cites two sources for those additions, an article by Professor Henry Friedlander, Professor in the Department of Judaic Studies at Brooklyn College of the City University of New York, and also Wytwycky, Bohdan (1980). The Other Holocaust: Many Circles of Hell. The Novak Report.
No reliably published scholarly sources have been produced that widen "The Holocaust" any further (with the deepest of respect for the opinion of Simon Wiesenthal). It was Serbs that caught my eye on the template (because I have a particular interest in the Balkans), but the template should be taking its lead from the article, and the article definition (even the expanded one) does not include Serbs (and some other groups). I am proposing removing all groups that do not fall within the definition currently used in the article, accepting that Romani people and people with disabilities could arguably be included on the basis mainly of Friedlander's work (although it is probably debatable given the weight we would naturally give all those eminent Holocaust scholars that use a narrower definition)." Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 12:11, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
The Holocaust, in my opinion, needs to include every aspect of Nazi and or Axis powers combined persecutions of peoples. The primary focus of Nazi persecution I believe was the Jewish people. I have stated before that I believe the article needs to focus on the Jewish persecution, however, Axis powers including Italy and Japan need to be included. Both Italians and Japanese interred Jews. The Italian persecution of Slavs needs to be in the article since Italy was part of the Axis. When Mussolini was disposed, Hitler finally was able to capture and deport Jews from Italy. The Japanese were also instructed by Hitler to capture Jews. I believe before any reduction of the article that the best method would be to propose a specific reduction and then let other editors discuss and approve or disapprove of the reduction. Cmguy777 ( talk) 05:45, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
The fact that many countries make it a criminal offence to deny the existence of the Holocaust should be included. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.232.124.147 ( talk) 01:44, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Hilberg's reasoning finds support in an article I read today in Haaretz, 70th anniversary of the Warsaw Uprising. This from Rabbi Menachem Ziemba:
Comparing the situation to the one that faced French and German Jews during the First Crusade, when the Halakha "determined one way of reacting to the distress," now, in the middle of the 20th century, "during the liquidation of the Jews of Poland," he suggested, "it prompts us to react in an entirely different manner. In the past, during religious persecution, we were required by the law 'to give up our lives even for the least essential practice.' In the present, however, when we are faced by an arch-foe, whose unparalleled ruthlessness and program of total annihilation know no bounds," said Ziemba, the Halakha demands, "that we fight and resist to the very end with unequaled determination and valor for the sake of Sanctification of the Divine Name."
Worth mentioning in the relevant footnote? 86.177.118.203 ( talk) 10:34, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
"In a 1986 essay, German historian Hans Mommsen wrote about the situation in post–World War I Germany that: If one emphasizes the indisputably important connection in isolation, one should not then force a connection with Hitler's weltanschauung [worldview], which was in no ways original itself, in order to deprive from it the existence of Auschwitz." Shouldn't that be in order to derive from it the existence of Auschwitz?-- Richard Hawkins ( talk) 19:33, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
This issue has been discussed before: see talk archives 7 and 20. There clearly was no consensus to include such a section. At the minimum, there needs to be further discussion before putting in a new section. Confusing groups persecuted by the Nazis and Holocaust victims should be avoided. The latter is about mass murder/genocide. All Nazis crimes do not come under that rubric. True, the same could be said about the previous 6 sections, i.e. "persons of color" through "Jehovah's Witnesses" and it is my opinion that they should be removed--particularly since most of them have their own separate WP articles. I know of no historian who includes them as Holocaust victims. But that is for another day... Joel Mc ( talk) 10:30, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
I believe the article needs to replace the term Nazis with the word German in an appropriate percentage. The term Nazi has become a euphemism for German racism and genocide. The German people are responsible for the Holocaust in Germany and German occupied territories, although the Croatian people independently committed persecution of Jews, yet, allowed by the Germans. The term Nazi tends to dehumanize the Holocaust. I do not believe the article emphasizes that the Nazis were actually racist homicidal German people. The German people knew the Holocaust was going on and approved of what Hitler was doing. Cmguy777 ( talk) 20:23, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
There are currently 27 archives to look up. Do you know what archive has talked about Nazis versus Germans? My original question has not been answered: "The Germans are refered to as Germans in WWI, so why not refer to the Germans as Germans in WWII?" Cmguy777 ( talk) 18:23, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Constant use of 'Germans' obscures the large role of Austrians (and the role of others). This is an important reason for using 'Nazis' rather than 'Germans'.
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Thanks, sche for these observations! I would accept any changes and your observations would help make changes to the article. I am not for a quota, rather, to stop any over usage of the term Nazi in the article. I believe the term "Nazis" tends to dehumanize the horrible acts committed by the German people against Jews and other races. The term "Nazis" is a political party, not a people, as has been mentioned before. I believe that even a few changes from "Nazis" to "Germans" would help clarify the Nazis were actually German people. Cmguy777 ( talk) 17:23, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
The word 'Germans' in this context obscures the large role of Austrians and the role of others. Actions on behalf of the Nazi regime or party carried out by non-members of the party are properly described as Nazi actions. For these reasons I favour the use of 'Nazi' over 'German'. Martin852 ( talk) 01:13, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
I think the following references should be improved as they are misleading
1. In text:
"and the Jedwabne pogrom, in which between 380 and 1,600 Jews were killed by local Poles in July 1941.[112]"
but in reference [112] it states:
"The inscription on the memorial stone raised in the place of the barn at Jedwabne read: "Place of torture and execution of the Jewish population. The Gestapo and Nazi gandarmerie burned 1600 people alive on July 10, 1941."
which first of all does not refer to Poles, but to Nazi Gandarmerie and Gestapo. One must find a better reference for that part to be valid. I did a bit of research I could not find any evidence supporting the "local Poles" burning 1600 people alive". As it is a strong accusation, it should be better referenced.
2. In numerous places in the text there is a reference to "Poland". It says "death camps in Poland" etc. That doesn't make historical sense. Unlike Vichy's German-collaborating government of France,there was no government in Poland. Poland was incorporated into Nazi Germany and no polish official had any role in German government. Referring to a land which used to be Poland between first and second world war, but was not Poland before the WWI and during WWII is misleading. The reference should always say "in General Governance" or in German-occupied Poland not just "in Poland".
In "Reaction" section, there is no mention that the earliest reports about Holocaust come from Polish officer Jan Karski and were issued in a form of a document by Polish government residing in London:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Mass_Extermination_of_Jews_in_German_Occupied_.pdf
see ny times article. Cramyourspam ( talk) 00:24, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
see ny times article. Cramyourspam ( talk) 00:25, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
see ny times article. Cramyourspam ( talk) 00:25, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
I don't understand! What about Romani peopole, homosexualist, communists and other people that were under Nazi extermination same way as jews? Why first sentences only about jews? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.229.172.101 ( talk) 13:27, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Jews were the primary targets of the Nazis. For a broader definition of Holocaust that includes Gypsies, Poles, Slavs in general, and Soviet POWs, see Bohdan Wytwycky, The Other Holocaust: Many Circles of Hell (New York: Novak Report, 1980).
The definition here of the Holocaust as solely an action against Jewish people is inconsistent with the Wikipedia “Holocaust Victims” definition, which includes the Nazi murders of over 12M civilian Slavic peoples as well as the Nazi murders of over 6M civilian Jewish people. Shouldn’t “Holocaust Victims” and “Holocaust” entries in Wikipedia use the same definition of Holocaust?-- Truthwillneverdie ( talk) 15:56, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
It is well known over 20 million were killed in the holocaust. See http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/9906771/Nazis-may-have-killed-up-to-20m-claims-shocking-new-Holocaust-study.html
The 6 million figure is thinly veiled antisemitism. 70.176.239.63 ( talk) 05:59, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
It is rather well known that(asuming) you are talking about the holocaust only refering to jews, then that is a physical impossibility. The 6 million that died of the 9 million in Europe, would mean some secret documents that scholars and researchers all over the world for over 60 years into their research about the holocaust, means they somehow were hidden. we are talking about millions here and we are talking about population numbers. so no there wasnt 20 million jews even alive back then in the ENTIRE WORLD.
perhaps if we talk about russian POW camps since they were the secondary highest murder rate of 3 million inside the camps and mass murdered outside the camps would perhaps count. of the 25 million dead russians in the war, instaed of 22 mil dead outside the camps and 3 mil dead inside the camps, perhaps if the article and source you linked to implies 9 million more dead would constitute 20 mil
means that of the 25 mil dead russians its
16 mil dead russians outside camps and instead war deaths as soldiers
9 mil dead russians inside camps
thus the normal 11 number thats cited for the holocaust would then euqality too 11+9=20
Orkanosera (
talk) 11:55, 7 March 2013 (UTC) Strike comments of banned editor
User:WitsBlomstein
:::However, if there is any explanation and photographic evidence of these documents and where they were hidden, then yes it would be plausable source. even under 40 years these new HUGE numbers would rather likely come up periodicly wise based on the most massive researched genocide in the world. 9+ MILLION are no small numbers to miss, let alone 20.000 EXTRA facilities somehow went unnoticed in the most reserached genocide in the world that has constant holocaust research not only in studied but in the archives aswell. they , as stated earlier, would come up periodicly wise with more and more camps and thus increase in the death toll.
There is an error (probably typographical in source) in the number of Jews given when the Germans invaded Poland: The article states 2 million, but the link it sends to actually gives the number as about 3.2 million. This is also the mumber I am acquainted with from other sources. The figure of 2 million could refer to the number of Jews in the area conquered by the Germans in September 1939 - the others being in the Russian occupied area of Poland. If so, then the wording of the sentence needs to be corrected to reflect this difference.In 1941 the Germans conquered the rest of Poland so these Jews too were brought in to the fold, so to speak. Since the article is locked could your official editors please correct the number and the wording appropriately. Thank you Dr Eado Hecht — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.229.150.214 ( talk) 12:11, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
Hi. Why isn't there a section on the arguments of holocaust deniers?
UltimateBoss (
talk) 13:44, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
This article is engaging (I hope unintentionally) in a type of holocaust denial. By redefining the Nazi holocaust as a Jewish experience it is excluding the millions who were victims of the holocaust, but weren't Jewish. This article is more about the Shoah (the Jewish experience of the holocaust), than it is about the holocaust of WW2. 121.73.7.84 ( talk) 01:54, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
It is not mainstream POV to exclude non-Jews from the holocaust. The holocaust includes all people systematically killed for being undesirable in this Nazi program of mass-killing. To confine the holocaust to the Jewish victims is cow-towing to a right-wing attempt to redefine history and is certainly not mainstream POV. The emphasis of the article intro places a minority definition - i.e. only the jewish victims count - as mainstream while portraying the mainstream point of view as some sort of minority view. 121.73.7.84 ( talk) 05:15, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
When I am next at the public library i'll ask the Librarian which textbooks are the official school history textbooks here in New Zealand. I'm curious to see how they define the holocaust. It's been 20 years since I was at school, but I certainly don't remember the holocaust being defined as this article defines it. I'm positive we were taught that it included various groups, with the Jews being a significant group. Outside of biased fringe theories I've never heard of the holocaust described as an almost exclusively Jewish event, with the rest exiled to the periphery. 121.73.7.84 ( talk) 08:58, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
But as I said at the beginning, the article violates Wikipedia's mainstream point of view policy. It takes the mainstream definition of the holocaust which recognises all the victims who were systematically murdered and portrays it as a minority "some scholars argue" POV. The article then inverts reality by pushing a minority view and passing it off as mainstream, i.e. it's the Jewish victims that count, with the others in the queue outside the gas chambers (or where ever) being exiled to a "oh, by the way" position. I'm sure that non-Jewish victims would find that highly offensive. 121.73.7.84 ( talk) 22:16, 14 May 2013 (UTC) The World Book Encyclopedia (an American Encyclopedia) in its introductory section of the article on the holocaust defines it as a systematic killing of millions of people Hitler regarded as racially inferior or politically dangerous: Jews, Germans who were physically or mentally handicapped, Slavs - particularly Poles and Russian prisoners of war, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, priests, communists, and other political opponents. No where does it define the holocaust as a Jewish event. 121.73.7.84 ( talk) 23:13, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
I only know the basics of the Holocaust, so this is merely an observation of someone who's just quickly skimmed the article. In terms of names, whatever the Holocaust used to be, it has become the Nazi genocide of European Jews. Therefore, if one takes the view that the Holocaust was, or rather is, the murder of the Jews, which is what the article does—"The Holocaust . . . was the mass murder or genocide of approximately six million Jews during World War II"—one becomes curious to know why there is a section, Section 4.2, that deals explicitly with "non-Jewish victims". I mean, if the Holocaust was the Nazi genocide of European Jews, it follows, trivially, that there were no non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust!
From my point of view, a dual omission is the question of when and why Hitler ordered the Holocaust, i.e. opted to undertake immediate genocide before the war was over. As will be known to those who have read more about it than I, and I have read little, the three main views (and I assume we can safely ignore the hardcore intentionalists and hardcore functionalists) are represented by Browning (decision came with Hitler's euphoria from the military successes against the Soviet Union in autumn 1941), Friedländer (bit later, December 1941: "Hitler probably finalized his decision in December", quoting from the lengthy endnote 103 of Chapter 5 of Years of Extermination), and Longerich (he goes for some time in 1942: "By the middle of the 1942, the Nazi regime was to consolidate and unify the mass murders that it had begun in the occupied Soviet territories in the summer of 1941 . . . into a comprehensive programme for the systematic murder of the Jews under German rule. . . . The authorities gradually moved away from the idea that the mass murders were anticipations of the 'Final Solution' that was to be carried out to its full extent only after the end of the war; instead, in the middle of 1942, the conviction had become established that the 'Final Solution' could be achieved by an intensification and expansion of these murders during the war itself", quoting from p. 313 of Holocaust). These two fundamental questions do not appear to be addressed in the article. LudicrousTripe ( talk) 21:49, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
Also, I presume a consequence of the Holocaust becoming a Jewish event is our having a name for the genocide of the Gypsies: the Porajmos. LudicrousTripe ( talk) 21:54, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
Joel Mc: I couldn't disagree more with your statement that "few, if any, "mainstream" historians of the WWII period use the term "The Holocaust" to refer to all "those groups of people targeted for immediate death by the Nazis". In fact i'd say that is far closer to how they define it. Of the sources cited so far in this thread, only a minority define the holocaust as a Jewish-only event, so that would appear to be the minority definition, not the mainstream one. There appears to be an increasingly revisionist re-definition of the holocaust (last 20 years?) occurring in some quarters towards it being a Jewish event - a misconception which the Wikipedia article is inadvertently helping to perpetuate. 121.73.7.84 ( talk) 04:40, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
I notice that The Jewish Virtual Library is quite happy to acknowledge that there were 5 million non-Jewish victims of the holocaust: Who Were the Five Million Non-Jewish Holocaust Victims? "Of the 11 million people killed during the Holocaust, six million were Polish citizens. Three million were Polish Jews and another three million were Polish Christians. Most of the remaining mortal victims were from other countries including Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Ukraine, Russia, Holland, France and even Germany." - Jewish Virtual Library. This is especially reassuring considering it's primarily Jewish and Israeli sponsored organisations that are pushing a redefinition of the holocaust which excludes non-Jews. 121.73.7.84 ( talk) 08:38, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
I can contribute a dictionary definition! From the 8th edition of The Pocket Oxford Dictionary of Current English (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1992):
LudicrousTripe ( talk) 21:17, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
A conclusion needs to be reached, and there are compelling reasons for keeping the article as it is—that is, it uses the term in the Jewish-only sense, but makes a clear note that this use is not universal, and makes connections with aspects and targets of Nazi mass-killing and genocide where needed. Does someone want to migrate the various sub-sections that mention non-Jewish victims—Gypsies, homosexuals, Jehovah witnesses, and so on—across to the relevant articles? Then if, they aren't there, we can add Wiklinks to ==See also==. I am happy to do this if no one else has the time and if I am given permission. The current situation is agreed by all sides to be absurd, so would be nice to get cracking. LudicrousTripe ( talk) 22:51, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
I don't understand most of what the section is saying, and of that, how it's important to the article. Relyk ( talk) 10:16, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps there can be a reference to Archbishop Damaskinos of Athens and his call, along with members of the greek academic community, to halt the deportation of Greek Jews from Nazi occupied Greece. Damaskinos formally protested against the deportation, clashed with the german authorities and was threatened to be shot, in an incident documented by "The International Raoul Wallenberg Foundation" ( http://www.raoulwallenberg.net/general/greek-orthodox-church-academic/).
Apart from that, the greek version of the article about the Archibishop claims that he ordered the priests to supply the Jews with certificates of (orthodox) baptism, in order to rescue them from arrest by the Nazis, but i can't provide any source for that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.49.86.12 ( talk) 15:20, 1 October 2011
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I'd like to post a translated version of the Nuremberg Laws. The translation was obtained from OldSin at http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=59074 and I created the image by blanking out the German.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nuremberg_laws_-_English_Translation.jpg
At some point it says "Saul Friedländer writes that: "Not one social group, not one religious community, not one scholarly institution or professional association in Germany and throughout Europe declared its solidarity with the Jews."[18] He writes that some Christian churches declared that converted Jews should be regarded as part of the flock, but even then only up to a point."
Which is completely not true as there is: /info/en/?search=List_of_Righteous_among_the_Nations_by_country and in particular: /info/en/?search=Polish_Righteous_among_the_Nations says that Polish resistance had a special division solely responsible for helping Jews.
I do not see why such a strongly untrue statement should not be rationalized. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lacek2 ( talk • contribs) 07:23, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
Just noticed, that Baltic countries are united as one in table with killed jews(by Lucy Dawidowicz). Why? I mean why later editors did blindly copied data, but didn't make new table based on source? I don't see the point there and I really would like to see each country as separate, because there is no real use for this data - and it is also misleading especially for people who can think only in single direction. There is completelly different situation in Estonia, where most of jews fled to USSR, different situation in Lithuania where most of jews were killed also because of proximity of German border and Latvia in the middle.
Also note the fact, that all of USSR occupied territories Baltic states, part of Poland(Western Belorussia, Western Ukraine, Bukovina - maybe more) and part of Romania(part of Moldavia known as Besarabia) had received the same fate of oppressions, mass killings and deportations(Finland luckily escaped this happy reunion of borders of Russian empire, by successfully resisting advance of Red Army, but loosing some territories), that were made by abnormally high percentage of JEWISH national NKVD&co(some people call them also CK - anyway all who are responsible) repressive agents WHO DID ORGANIZE MASSACRES AND EXPULSIONS in occupied territories in 1940 and who really didn't suffer fate of the rest of jews who vanished or survived in Holocaust, but did their job by commiting crimes of country, that was ally of Third Reich and therefore can not share status of victims and really shouldn't be included in any of tables as the survivors of Holocaust!!! And as a matter of fact there were jews who collaborated with NKVD and who coexisted in the same time and space continium with others who didn't wanted to cooperate with them - let's not judge ANY nation by the worst elements and let's not make stupid assumptions, that jews formed uniform ethnicity - there were religious jews, along with comunists and there were jews, who blended with locals - as a matter of fact my ancestor was catholic jew and not comunist, but suffered the same fate as others who were killed, only his wife and children escaped to leave neirotism in next generations.
This is unique fact, that does not appear in Holocaust theme - do you really think, that local people who lived side by side with jews(who were expelled from different Europe countries in previous centuries) and suffered together oppression from germans and Russian empire and organized together first resistance to Russian empire and nurtured together idea of national state(including the idea of jewish state in Israel) as a RIGHT OF EACH NATION TO BE INDEPENDENT just went frenzy, because they were bigger antisemites, than the rest of Europe(including Germany) who sent jews to extermination camps in eastern Europe and Germany? This is really sad event, where group of zealous murderers in blind rage helped nazis, but really there is no right to accuse or justify whole nations because all nations under nazis HAD collaborators for different reasons.
As a backstep in history there were 450 000 jewish soldiers in Russian empire army in WW1 - that is huge number and that later made core part of Red Army and jewish people HAD most top positions in all organizations till the Great Purges. After Great Purges NKVD had ~97% of russians in top positions, and in that light this is really strange, that there were so many low level rank NKVD agents of jewish ancestry, who were sent to USSR occupied territories to massacre and execute expulsion of local people(including local jews) at the same time preparing to attack Germany. It would be similary as germans used nongermans to exterminate others(not only jews, but also 9000 villages of belarussian) - oh wait, they did the same... Unluckily for USSR, Germany attacked USSR sooner, than USSR wanted to attack Germany and Holocaust in eastern Europe was a gift of USSR to a Third Reich - it is simply unbelievable, that SUCH LUCK exists! And interestingly enough Germany and USSR were allies, before Germany attacked USSR. I really mean Russia as USSR - it was always been legacy of Russian empire - gulags were nothing new - they were called catorga, also ethnic cleansings and oppressions were common in empire, same for secret police - all the same, just different names.
Returning to my initial question - there is enough data to give numbers for each of Baltic country from respective wiki pages of Holocaust theme of these countries. Well, THANKS WIKI - I really was fooled all these years, because I thought, that more jews were exterminated and not many escaped, but I modified table in this way:
Country | before USSR occupation/before Nazi occupation / "saved" by Siberia| estimated killed | % from all pre-war / % from Nazi occupied Estonia | 4 300 / 1 000 450 | 1 000 | 23 / 100 Latvia | 93 479 / 60 000 ~6 000 | 56 500 | 60 / 94 Lithuania | 208 000 - 210 000 * 4 000 - 7 000 | 195 000 - 196 000 * | 92 - 94
Germany at that time had reoccupied Klaipeda region(as a part of Molotov-Ribentrop pact), that helped to advance almost simultaneously into both Latvia and Lithuania, so it seems to me, that killings of Lithuanian jews went the same path, by forming police batallions, who helped germans to exterminate jews and it is almost impossible to imagine, that lithuanians would make any independent decisions.
Latvia was accepting jew refugees, that were fleeing from rest of Europe till end of 1938(well, germans did start to kill jews a bit later), because half of goverment were(ok, I'm exagerating, but some key positions were taken by) jews there at that time. Do not know about other countries of this buffer-zone if they did accept jew reffugees.
Note: difference before these occupations includes jews, who fled to USSR, when Nazi army advanced. Also some of that includes jews, who as some of todays russian "historian" says were "saved", by sending them to Siberia... o.O
I do think, that there should be same table entries for rest of USSR occupied territories(West Belorussia, West Ukraine and Bukovina, Besarabia), because percents killed do not match there already in each separate country and it would give view on USSR role of jew fate in these territores - also to note the difference from rest of Europe, who didn't suffer 3 occupations of 2 undemocratic regimes. USSR was expelled from Nations League, because of attack on Finland - they were prepared the same fate, because of aggreement of Molotov-Ribentrop between USSR and Third reich.
PS I blame for Holocaust germans. For pogroms - russians. They know why.
Interestingly enough latvians comparing before and after WW2 suffered the same % of people loss, as did jews, if taken account of total jews in the world and compared to total latvians. I really justify my statement on the basis, that nazis killed first jews, then gypsies, then christians - it wouldn't stop with jews(so Holocaust is NOT really only about jews - it is really about germans and what they intended to do with nongermans and not proper behaved germans, too) and before russians, germans were biggest enemies of latvians and had a long running feud of 700 year long oppression and russians in WW2 did there a Great Job, to change that. And USSR really didn't do anything different than Third Reich there - banished whole nations from their native countries - some of them suffered the same casualities with 40-60% loss of people.
sorry for such a long entry - but I'm really fed up about current trend of interpretation of history and that includes even jews, who have lost ability to see the Big picture — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.171.13.70 ( talk) 03:36, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
I have already pointed out above that the term "morally bankrupt" is clearly a POV and really has no place in such a discussion. When I was teaching Philosphy, albeit many years ago, at the very begining of the course, we examined the distinction between descriptive statements and prescriptive (normative) statements, or in lay terms between "is" and "ought". Using the definition of the Holocaust is a descriptive statment based on the use of the term today by a vast number of scholars (you only have to look at a shelf of books in the German history section of any library to get see this.) Scholars use the term today to distinguish the mass murder of Jews from other Nazi mass murders because there are important different characteristics of each of the mass murders, i.e. there is a difference between anti-semitism and anti-slavism, not to "forget the suffering of other groups". To lump all together makes it more difficult to understand what actually happened. It has been repeated over and over again in this discussion that the label used by historians is descriptive and not a judgement about more or less suffering by the different groups that were murdered by the Nazis. Nevertheless, the confusion between "is" and "ought" seems to keep rearing its head. I don't know what all the "Agreed"s above mean, but to make it clear, I do not agree to changing the definition that we have. Joel Mc ( talk) 16:59, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Boundarylayer ( talk • contribs) 14:03, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
The article brings ample evidence that the Holocaust was an official policy and set of actions by the nation of Germany. To refer to every state action as "Nazi Germany" diminishes this fact. It would be like referring to Britain's actions in WWII as "Conservative Britain" or the USA's entry into the war as "Democratic America". Rather, the term "Nazi Germany" should be restricted to references to the historical period, such as "Otto Dov Kulka, an expert on public opinion in Nazi Germany" - his expertise is on German public opinion during the historical period of the Nazis - i.e. Nazi Germany. In contrast "Various laws to remove the Jews from civil society, most prominently the Nuremberg Laws, were enacted in Nazi Germany years before the outbreak of World War II" should be rewritten as "Various laws to remove the Jews from civil society, most prominently the Nuremberg Laws, were enacted in Germany years before the outbreak of World War II". These didn't happen in Nazi Germany - they happened in Germany. Narc ( talk) 05:57, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
Regarding German support for the Holocaust, a recommended reading can be the classic Hannah Arendt's position: "Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil". -- Lysy talk 08:24, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
NSDAP was allied with DNVP and in elections they won over 51% of votes together. DNVP was a nationalistic, anti-semitic party as well, but more orientated to ideals of aristocracy and monarchism. Jake. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.170.143 ( talk) 12:41, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
An RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 17:40, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
The article states in an attempt at balance, "Most historians claim that the civilian population was unaware of the atrocities that were carried out, especially in the extermination camps, which were located outside of Germany in Nazi-occupied Europe." This is an unreferenced statement. I doubt that it's true. How do we know what "most historians" claim? How about citing even one historian who claims this? I didn't outright delete the sentence because I don't know enough to say it's false. But without at least one reference, I suggest it be deleted. -- Narc ( talk) 03:58, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
-everyone who trolls on wikipedia should be in the holocaust ten times over. -me — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Asfd666 (
talk •
contribs) 15:25, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
Agreed, the people who lived nearby definitely knew the concentration camps, and perhaps even the extermination camps, existed. I'm curious though, did the vast majority of Germans(those living in cities) also know of there existence? Probably not, though I haven't read anything to the contrary. In sum, I agree the following reference is worth adding - Hitler's War in the East, 1941-1945: A Critical Assessment (War and Genocide)by Rolf-Dieter Muller, Gerd R. Ueberschar, pp 238-40 should be added. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boundarylayer ( talk • contribs) 19:12, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
Agreed with the above. I think that reducing knowedge of the Shoah down to knowedge of the camps is not very helpful. Two points need to be made here. First, the vast majority of people in Germany did not know of the death camps in Poland or elsewhere during the war. However, that is not the same thing as being ignorant of the Holocaust. Officialy, Jews were deported for "resettlement in the East". Most Germans had no idea about where the Jews were actually going, but it is clear that most were vaguely aware that there was no "resettlment in the East", and instead the Jews were murdered, even if there were ignorant of the actual places and methods of murder. Take the White Rose group in Munich-a group of university students with no friends in high places or access to special information who were certainly well aware judging from their pamphlets that their government was committing genocide, even if they were a bit hazy about some of the details. Incidently, that proves how ridiculous Albert Speer's claim to be ignorant of the Shoah was. Strange that a cabinet minister could be less well informed of what his goverment was doing than a group of students with no access to state secrets.
Second, reducing knowedge of the Holocaust down to knowedge of the death camps totally ignores the Einsatzgruppen. Contrary to what countless Wehrmacht generals and apologists have tried to claim, the Wehrmacht was massively involved in the massacres of Jews in the Soviet Union. Almost every single German soldier who fought on the Eastern Front knew of the massacres committed by the Einsatzgruppen, and thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of soldiers witnessed the killings. The fact that German Army generals had to keep on issuing orders to their men telling them not to photograph the massacres of Jews speaks for itself. And that is not even considering that leading commanders like Manstein, Reichnau and Rundstedt to name only a few, issued statements to the men under their command justifying the massacres. Even if a German soldier did not see or hear about the massacres, they would heard the Severity Order read out to them by their officers, which spoke of the "harsh, but just punishment of Jewish sub-humanity". Given that millions of German soldiers fought on the Eastern Front, not only did the Army know of the Einsatzgruppen massacres, but so did most people back on the home front as well.
My suggestion would be to re-write that sentence to say that through most Germans did not know of the camps, they did know 1) of the mass shootings in the Soviet Union and 2) were aware in a general sense that people being deported for "resettlment in the East" were murdered. -- A.S. Brown ( talk) 00:05, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
Do people have objections if I pull out the books cited in the article to their own section and then use {{sfn}}s? Would make the cites less bulky, and save some duplication. Just a suggestion, I'm happy to do the donkey work. ColaXtra ( talk) 18:23, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Wondering about the table with header "The following figures from Lucy Dawidowicz show the annihilation of the Jewish population of Europe by (pre-war) country" since it notes that 22 Finnish Jews would have been annihilated while the context links this to Holocaust. Problem with this is that as per previous comments on this talk page - Talk:The_Holocaust/Archive_26#Edit_request_23rd_August_2011 those 23 (not 22) died in service while fighting against the Soviet Union. Not as victims of persecution or Holocaust. What i also find peculiar is that if i follow the link to the article which according to citations is used for the table it does not note any Finnish Jews as victims of Holocaust. So what is the rationale behind the inclusion of the Finnish Jews who died in service in to the table? For that matter if servicemen are to be included then why only Finnish servicemen are included and not for example for British Jews? - Wanderer602 ( talk) 08:01, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
Once I've finished fiddling with cites, which won't be long now, will people be prepared to either help out, or watch over me, getting the article up to 'Good'?? ColaXtra ( talk) 01:56, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
Trying to access 'Holocaust' redirects to this page. Should it not go to a page about holocausts, rather than redirecting the reader to a page dealing solely with one particular holocaust? kimdino ( talk) 17:35, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
1. Made the distinction between proper nouns and common noun as there seemed to be some confusion in past discussions. 2. Replaced unreferenced discussion about etymology with referenced explanation. 3. Replaced Britannica reference with Snyder reference. One should avoid referring to other encyclopedias if a scholarly reference is available. 4. Replaced Huffpost ref with Dawidowicz, who is a scholar. 5. Added second reference on Romani issue, Niewyk's chapter is from 2012 6. Rewrote third lede para: no real evidence of a "most common definition" before the 1960s, corrected total figures of Nazi mass murders in light of more up-to-date info. Joel Mc ( talk) 16:36, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
I've noticed that Colaxtra has been going through this article and replacing "the Holocaust" with "the Nazi genocide." I am confused as to the purpose of this. They are both the same thing, but the Holocaust is the name of this article and is the more commonly used form. -- Jethro B 19:05, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
Nazi or German Genocide is accurate I believe. Holocaust is a general term. I believe there is importance to attaching Nazi's or Germans, including Hitler, for responsibility of genocide. Cmguy777 ( talk) 01:39, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
I believe adding information on Mussolini's and the Italian Army's resistance to the deporation of Italian Jews by the German Army would be beneficial to the article up until Mussolini was deposed in 1943. However, Mussolini and the Italian Army massacred the Slavs. This needs to be mentioned also. I request to add a segment on the Italian opposition to Jewish deportation and the massacre of the Slavs. Cmguy777 ( talk) 23:04, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
The lede does not mention that 250 (250,000) Gypsies were murdered during the Holocaust.
Cmguy777 (
talk) 03:21, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
Yes, 250,000 is correct. Cmguy777 ( talk) 20:01, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
I removed the material from the lead because material does not belong in the lead unless it also appears elsewhere in the article. WP:LEAD. The lead is supposed to be a summary of the rest of the article, not a stand-alone repository for the facts deemed to be most important. -- Ninja Dianna ( Talk) 00:53, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
The article talks about Ukrainian police (Babyn Yar, etc.) but of Soviet POWs and Soviet losses. Either call the police "Soviet police" or separate out the numbers of POWs who were Ukrainiand (and the number of Ukrainians among the Soviet losses). To do otherwise is a practice of questionable integrity, even if it is accepted practice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zajchyk ( talk • contribs) 04:33, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
What is missing from this article is Italian and Japanese involvement of the Holocaust. I have already mentioned Mussolini protecting Jews at the same time keeping them in concentration camps. Mussolini, however, persecuted the Slavs. The Japanese interred Jews in Indonesia during WW II. Remember Germany was an Axis Power. The Holocaust was a world wide event. This is important. Not to mention the Japanese treatment of the Chinese. Cmguy777 ( talk) 20:07, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
I am not talking large edits here, but I believe the readers need to understand that Germany was part of an Axis power base. Jews were interned by Italians and Japanese. Recent research on Jewish internment by the Japanese needs to be added to the article. What is certain is that Hitler and the Nazis were heavily influencial in a world wide Holocaust. Cmguy777 ( talk) 01:23, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
I respectfully disagree. You have to understand Hitler and his master plan. Had he won WWII, he would have exterminated all the Jews in the earth. Living in a concentration camp is no picnic and the point is that Jews were seperated from other groups. This article can't rely on one Italian historian opinions. If Jews were interred by the Japanese and Italians then this needs to be in the article. The Jews or any minority group were under the threat of death if they escaped. Even in the good old U.S.A. thousands of Japanese were interred under the threat of death. Holocaust is a general term that implies Jewish internment, torture, and death. The Axis powers were worldwide and Hitler wanted to rule the world believing Germany was an eternal empire. Cmguy777 ( talk) 03:29, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm sort of surprised that given the references to the triangles in the individual subsections on groups such as Homosexuals, that the only link I can find to Nazi concentration camp badges is in the Holocaust template. While I could be bold, this is an article that I'm sure has a great deal of watching by experienced wikipedians and would like opinions. Naraht ( talk) 14:54, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
My understanding is that this article is about "The Holocaust" or the "Shoah". The lead states that: "The Holocaust (from the Greek ὁλόκαυστος holókaustos: hólos, "whole" and kaustós, "burnt")[2] also known as the Shoah (Hebrew: השואה, HaShoah, "catastrophe"; Yiddish: חורבן, Churben or Hurban, from the Hebrew for "destruction"), was the mass murder or genocide of approximately six million Jews during World War II, a programme of systematic state-sponsored murder by Nazi Germany, led by Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party, throughout German-occupied territory.[3][4] Of the nine million Jews who had resided in Europe before the Holocaust, approximately two-thirds were killed.[5] Over one million Jewish children were killed in the Holocaust, as were approximately two million Jewish women and three million Jewish men.[6][7]
Some scholars argue that the mass murder of the Romani and people with disabilities should be included in the definition,[8][9]... (then goes on to talk about "holocausts").
While it is appropriate to mention the other groups in the lead in the context of the wider use of the term "holocaust", the content of this article needs to be re-focussed on "The Holocaust", which basically includes only Jews. Given there are scholars that argue for the two aditional groups to be included, it is appropriate (IMO) to include a summary style section on the mass murder of Romani people with a (main) template linking to the Porajmos article, and a separate section covering the mass murder of people with disabilities. The rest are "a holocaust", not "The Holocaust", so unless scholarly sources can be located that explicitly argue for the inclusion of those groups in "The Holocaust", that content needs to be moved to appropriate articles. Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 00:21, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
I believe the focus on this article needs to be on the Jewish Holocaust, however, not to include the Romani or Slavs would be potentially misleading. The term Holocaust is a Greek word that article is titled "The Holocaust". I believe focusing only on the Jewish holocaust would deminish the slaughter of millions by Hitler and the Nazis. A seperate article that focuses only on the Jewish Holocaust titled Shoah could be written. Cmguy777 ( talk) 01:31, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
I agree with Cmguy777.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 12:49, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
"Essentially I agree with Dianna, and would be amused by Tulipsword's serious case of WP:HEAR if the subject wasn't so serious. The lead of the current The Holocaust article defines the Holocaust as "was the mass murder or genocide of approximately six million Jews during World War II, a programme of systematic state-sponsored murder by Nazi Germany, led by Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party, throughout German-occupied territory" and cites 10 separate sources supporting that definition, including from books written by:
among others
The article lead also indicates that some scholars include the mass murder of Romani people and people with disabilities in their definition of "The Holocaust" and cites two sources for those additions, an article by Professor Henry Friedlander, Professor in the Department of Judaic Studies at Brooklyn College of the City University of New York, and also Wytwycky, Bohdan (1980). The Other Holocaust: Many Circles of Hell. The Novak Report.
No reliably published scholarly sources have been produced that widen "The Holocaust" any further (with the deepest of respect for the opinion of Simon Wiesenthal). It was Serbs that caught my eye on the template (because I have a particular interest in the Balkans), but the template should be taking its lead from the article, and the article definition (even the expanded one) does not include Serbs (and some other groups). I am proposing removing all groups that do not fall within the definition currently used in the article, accepting that Romani people and people with disabilities could arguably be included on the basis mainly of Friedlander's work (although it is probably debatable given the weight we would naturally give all those eminent Holocaust scholars that use a narrower definition)." Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 12:11, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
The Holocaust, in my opinion, needs to include every aspect of Nazi and or Axis powers combined persecutions of peoples. The primary focus of Nazi persecution I believe was the Jewish people. I have stated before that I believe the article needs to focus on the Jewish persecution, however, Axis powers including Italy and Japan need to be included. Both Italians and Japanese interred Jews. The Italian persecution of Slavs needs to be in the article since Italy was part of the Axis. When Mussolini was disposed, Hitler finally was able to capture and deport Jews from Italy. The Japanese were also instructed by Hitler to capture Jews. I believe before any reduction of the article that the best method would be to propose a specific reduction and then let other editors discuss and approve or disapprove of the reduction. Cmguy777 ( talk) 05:45, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
The fact that many countries make it a criminal offence to deny the existence of the Holocaust should be included. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.232.124.147 ( talk) 01:44, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Hilberg's reasoning finds support in an article I read today in Haaretz, 70th anniversary of the Warsaw Uprising. This from Rabbi Menachem Ziemba:
Comparing the situation to the one that faced French and German Jews during the First Crusade, when the Halakha "determined one way of reacting to the distress," now, in the middle of the 20th century, "during the liquidation of the Jews of Poland," he suggested, "it prompts us to react in an entirely different manner. In the past, during religious persecution, we were required by the law 'to give up our lives even for the least essential practice.' In the present, however, when we are faced by an arch-foe, whose unparalleled ruthlessness and program of total annihilation know no bounds," said Ziemba, the Halakha demands, "that we fight and resist to the very end with unequaled determination and valor for the sake of Sanctification of the Divine Name."
Worth mentioning in the relevant footnote? 86.177.118.203 ( talk) 10:34, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
"In a 1986 essay, German historian Hans Mommsen wrote about the situation in post–World War I Germany that: If one emphasizes the indisputably important connection in isolation, one should not then force a connection with Hitler's weltanschauung [worldview], which was in no ways original itself, in order to deprive from it the existence of Auschwitz." Shouldn't that be in order to derive from it the existence of Auschwitz?-- Richard Hawkins ( talk) 19:33, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
This issue has been discussed before: see talk archives 7 and 20. There clearly was no consensus to include such a section. At the minimum, there needs to be further discussion before putting in a new section. Confusing groups persecuted by the Nazis and Holocaust victims should be avoided. The latter is about mass murder/genocide. All Nazis crimes do not come under that rubric. True, the same could be said about the previous 6 sections, i.e. "persons of color" through "Jehovah's Witnesses" and it is my opinion that they should be removed--particularly since most of them have their own separate WP articles. I know of no historian who includes them as Holocaust victims. But that is for another day... Joel Mc ( talk) 10:30, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
I believe the article needs to replace the term Nazis with the word German in an appropriate percentage. The term Nazi has become a euphemism for German racism and genocide. The German people are responsible for the Holocaust in Germany and German occupied territories, although the Croatian people independently committed persecution of Jews, yet, allowed by the Germans. The term Nazi tends to dehumanize the Holocaust. I do not believe the article emphasizes that the Nazis were actually racist homicidal German people. The German people knew the Holocaust was going on and approved of what Hitler was doing. Cmguy777 ( talk) 20:23, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
There are currently 27 archives to look up. Do you know what archive has talked about Nazis versus Germans? My original question has not been answered: "The Germans are refered to as Germans in WWI, so why not refer to the Germans as Germans in WWII?" Cmguy777 ( talk) 18:23, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Constant use of 'Germans' obscures the large role of Austrians (and the role of others). This is an important reason for using 'Nazis' rather than 'Germans'.
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Thanks, sche for these observations! I would accept any changes and your observations would help make changes to the article. I am not for a quota, rather, to stop any over usage of the term Nazi in the article. I believe the term "Nazis" tends to dehumanize the horrible acts committed by the German people against Jews and other races. The term "Nazis" is a political party, not a people, as has been mentioned before. I believe that even a few changes from "Nazis" to "Germans" would help clarify the Nazis were actually German people. Cmguy777 ( talk) 17:23, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
The word 'Germans' in this context obscures the large role of Austrians and the role of others. Actions on behalf of the Nazi regime or party carried out by non-members of the party are properly described as Nazi actions. For these reasons I favour the use of 'Nazi' over 'German'. Martin852 ( talk) 01:13, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
I think the following references should be improved as they are misleading
1. In text:
"and the Jedwabne pogrom, in which between 380 and 1,600 Jews were killed by local Poles in July 1941.[112]"
but in reference [112] it states:
"The inscription on the memorial stone raised in the place of the barn at Jedwabne read: "Place of torture and execution of the Jewish population. The Gestapo and Nazi gandarmerie burned 1600 people alive on July 10, 1941."
which first of all does not refer to Poles, but to Nazi Gandarmerie and Gestapo. One must find a better reference for that part to be valid. I did a bit of research I could not find any evidence supporting the "local Poles" burning 1600 people alive". As it is a strong accusation, it should be better referenced.
2. In numerous places in the text there is a reference to "Poland". It says "death camps in Poland" etc. That doesn't make historical sense. Unlike Vichy's German-collaborating government of France,there was no government in Poland. Poland was incorporated into Nazi Germany and no polish official had any role in German government. Referring to a land which used to be Poland between first and second world war, but was not Poland before the WWI and during WWII is misleading. The reference should always say "in General Governance" or in German-occupied Poland not just "in Poland".
In "Reaction" section, there is no mention that the earliest reports about Holocaust come from Polish officer Jan Karski and were issued in a form of a document by Polish government residing in London:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Mass_Extermination_of_Jews_in_German_Occupied_.pdf
see ny times article. Cramyourspam ( talk) 00:24, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
see ny times article. Cramyourspam ( talk) 00:25, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
see ny times article. Cramyourspam ( talk) 00:25, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
I don't understand! What about Romani peopole, homosexualist, communists and other people that were under Nazi extermination same way as jews? Why first sentences only about jews? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.229.172.101 ( talk) 13:27, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Jews were the primary targets of the Nazis. For a broader definition of Holocaust that includes Gypsies, Poles, Slavs in general, and Soviet POWs, see Bohdan Wytwycky, The Other Holocaust: Many Circles of Hell (New York: Novak Report, 1980).
The definition here of the Holocaust as solely an action against Jewish people is inconsistent with the Wikipedia “Holocaust Victims” definition, which includes the Nazi murders of over 12M civilian Slavic peoples as well as the Nazi murders of over 6M civilian Jewish people. Shouldn’t “Holocaust Victims” and “Holocaust” entries in Wikipedia use the same definition of Holocaust?-- Truthwillneverdie ( talk) 15:56, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
It is well known over 20 million were killed in the holocaust. See http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/9906771/Nazis-may-have-killed-up-to-20m-claims-shocking-new-Holocaust-study.html
The 6 million figure is thinly veiled antisemitism. 70.176.239.63 ( talk) 05:59, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
It is rather well known that(asuming) you are talking about the holocaust only refering to jews, then that is a physical impossibility. The 6 million that died of the 9 million in Europe, would mean some secret documents that scholars and researchers all over the world for over 60 years into their research about the holocaust, means they somehow were hidden. we are talking about millions here and we are talking about population numbers. so no there wasnt 20 million jews even alive back then in the ENTIRE WORLD.
perhaps if we talk about russian POW camps since they were the secondary highest murder rate of 3 million inside the camps and mass murdered outside the camps would perhaps count. of the 25 million dead russians in the war, instaed of 22 mil dead outside the camps and 3 mil dead inside the camps, perhaps if the article and source you linked to implies 9 million more dead would constitute 20 mil
means that of the 25 mil dead russians its
16 mil dead russians outside camps and instead war deaths as soldiers
9 mil dead russians inside camps
thus the normal 11 number thats cited for the holocaust would then euqality too 11+9=20
Orkanosera (
talk) 11:55, 7 March 2013 (UTC) Strike comments of banned editor
User:WitsBlomstein
:::However, if there is any explanation and photographic evidence of these documents and where they were hidden, then yes it would be plausable source. even under 40 years these new HUGE numbers would rather likely come up periodicly wise based on the most massive researched genocide in the world. 9+ MILLION are no small numbers to miss, let alone 20.000 EXTRA facilities somehow went unnoticed in the most reserached genocide in the world that has constant holocaust research not only in studied but in the archives aswell. they , as stated earlier, would come up periodicly wise with more and more camps and thus increase in the death toll.
There is an error (probably typographical in source) in the number of Jews given when the Germans invaded Poland: The article states 2 million, but the link it sends to actually gives the number as about 3.2 million. This is also the mumber I am acquainted with from other sources. The figure of 2 million could refer to the number of Jews in the area conquered by the Germans in September 1939 - the others being in the Russian occupied area of Poland. If so, then the wording of the sentence needs to be corrected to reflect this difference.In 1941 the Germans conquered the rest of Poland so these Jews too were brought in to the fold, so to speak. Since the article is locked could your official editors please correct the number and the wording appropriately. Thank you Dr Eado Hecht — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.229.150.214 ( talk) 12:11, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
Hi. Why isn't there a section on the arguments of holocaust deniers?
UltimateBoss (
talk) 13:44, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
This article is engaging (I hope unintentionally) in a type of holocaust denial. By redefining the Nazi holocaust as a Jewish experience it is excluding the millions who were victims of the holocaust, but weren't Jewish. This article is more about the Shoah (the Jewish experience of the holocaust), than it is about the holocaust of WW2. 121.73.7.84 ( talk) 01:54, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
It is not mainstream POV to exclude non-Jews from the holocaust. The holocaust includes all people systematically killed for being undesirable in this Nazi program of mass-killing. To confine the holocaust to the Jewish victims is cow-towing to a right-wing attempt to redefine history and is certainly not mainstream POV. The emphasis of the article intro places a minority definition - i.e. only the jewish victims count - as mainstream while portraying the mainstream point of view as some sort of minority view. 121.73.7.84 ( talk) 05:15, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
When I am next at the public library i'll ask the Librarian which textbooks are the official school history textbooks here in New Zealand. I'm curious to see how they define the holocaust. It's been 20 years since I was at school, but I certainly don't remember the holocaust being defined as this article defines it. I'm positive we were taught that it included various groups, with the Jews being a significant group. Outside of biased fringe theories I've never heard of the holocaust described as an almost exclusively Jewish event, with the rest exiled to the periphery. 121.73.7.84 ( talk) 08:58, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
But as I said at the beginning, the article violates Wikipedia's mainstream point of view policy. It takes the mainstream definition of the holocaust which recognises all the victims who were systematically murdered and portrays it as a minority "some scholars argue" POV. The article then inverts reality by pushing a minority view and passing it off as mainstream, i.e. it's the Jewish victims that count, with the others in the queue outside the gas chambers (or where ever) being exiled to a "oh, by the way" position. I'm sure that non-Jewish victims would find that highly offensive. 121.73.7.84 ( talk) 22:16, 14 May 2013 (UTC) The World Book Encyclopedia (an American Encyclopedia) in its introductory section of the article on the holocaust defines it as a systematic killing of millions of people Hitler regarded as racially inferior or politically dangerous: Jews, Germans who were physically or mentally handicapped, Slavs - particularly Poles and Russian prisoners of war, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, priests, communists, and other political opponents. No where does it define the holocaust as a Jewish event. 121.73.7.84 ( talk) 23:13, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
I only know the basics of the Holocaust, so this is merely an observation of someone who's just quickly skimmed the article. In terms of names, whatever the Holocaust used to be, it has become the Nazi genocide of European Jews. Therefore, if one takes the view that the Holocaust was, or rather is, the murder of the Jews, which is what the article does—"The Holocaust . . . was the mass murder or genocide of approximately six million Jews during World War II"—one becomes curious to know why there is a section, Section 4.2, that deals explicitly with "non-Jewish victims". I mean, if the Holocaust was the Nazi genocide of European Jews, it follows, trivially, that there were no non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust!
From my point of view, a dual omission is the question of when and why Hitler ordered the Holocaust, i.e. opted to undertake immediate genocide before the war was over. As will be known to those who have read more about it than I, and I have read little, the three main views (and I assume we can safely ignore the hardcore intentionalists and hardcore functionalists) are represented by Browning (decision came with Hitler's euphoria from the military successes against the Soviet Union in autumn 1941), Friedländer (bit later, December 1941: "Hitler probably finalized his decision in December", quoting from the lengthy endnote 103 of Chapter 5 of Years of Extermination), and Longerich (he goes for some time in 1942: "By the middle of the 1942, the Nazi regime was to consolidate and unify the mass murders that it had begun in the occupied Soviet territories in the summer of 1941 . . . into a comprehensive programme for the systematic murder of the Jews under German rule. . . . The authorities gradually moved away from the idea that the mass murders were anticipations of the 'Final Solution' that was to be carried out to its full extent only after the end of the war; instead, in the middle of 1942, the conviction had become established that the 'Final Solution' could be achieved by an intensification and expansion of these murders during the war itself", quoting from p. 313 of Holocaust). These two fundamental questions do not appear to be addressed in the article. LudicrousTripe ( talk) 21:49, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
Also, I presume a consequence of the Holocaust becoming a Jewish event is our having a name for the genocide of the Gypsies: the Porajmos. LudicrousTripe ( talk) 21:54, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
Joel Mc: I couldn't disagree more with your statement that "few, if any, "mainstream" historians of the WWII period use the term "The Holocaust" to refer to all "those groups of people targeted for immediate death by the Nazis". In fact i'd say that is far closer to how they define it. Of the sources cited so far in this thread, only a minority define the holocaust as a Jewish-only event, so that would appear to be the minority definition, not the mainstream one. There appears to be an increasingly revisionist re-definition of the holocaust (last 20 years?) occurring in some quarters towards it being a Jewish event - a misconception which the Wikipedia article is inadvertently helping to perpetuate. 121.73.7.84 ( talk) 04:40, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
I notice that The Jewish Virtual Library is quite happy to acknowledge that there were 5 million non-Jewish victims of the holocaust: Who Were the Five Million Non-Jewish Holocaust Victims? "Of the 11 million people killed during the Holocaust, six million were Polish citizens. Three million were Polish Jews and another three million were Polish Christians. Most of the remaining mortal victims were from other countries including Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Ukraine, Russia, Holland, France and even Germany." - Jewish Virtual Library. This is especially reassuring considering it's primarily Jewish and Israeli sponsored organisations that are pushing a redefinition of the holocaust which excludes non-Jews. 121.73.7.84 ( talk) 08:38, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
I can contribute a dictionary definition! From the 8th edition of The Pocket Oxford Dictionary of Current English (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1992):
LudicrousTripe ( talk) 21:17, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
A conclusion needs to be reached, and there are compelling reasons for keeping the article as it is—that is, it uses the term in the Jewish-only sense, but makes a clear note that this use is not universal, and makes connections with aspects and targets of Nazi mass-killing and genocide where needed. Does someone want to migrate the various sub-sections that mention non-Jewish victims—Gypsies, homosexuals, Jehovah witnesses, and so on—across to the relevant articles? Then if, they aren't there, we can add Wiklinks to ==See also==. I am happy to do this if no one else has the time and if I am given permission. The current situation is agreed by all sides to be absurd, so would be nice to get cracking. LudicrousTripe ( talk) 22:51, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
I don't understand most of what the section is saying, and of that, how it's important to the article. Relyk ( talk) 10:16, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps there can be a reference to Archbishop Damaskinos of Athens and his call, along with members of the greek academic community, to halt the deportation of Greek Jews from Nazi occupied Greece. Damaskinos formally protested against the deportation, clashed with the german authorities and was threatened to be shot, in an incident documented by "The International Raoul Wallenberg Foundation" ( http://www.raoulwallenberg.net/general/greek-orthodox-church-academic/).
Apart from that, the greek version of the article about the Archibishop claims that he ordered the priests to supply the Jews with certificates of (orthodox) baptism, in order to rescue them from arrest by the Nazis, but i can't provide any source for that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.49.86.12 ( talk) 15:20, 1 October 2011