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but there is little evidence[citation needed] that the Nazis planned to systematically target them for genocide as was the case for the groups above.
With regards to the Soviet POWs, that may well be due to the fact that the German command had not allowed for food for all those captured, thus all the hundreds of thousands of Soviet POWs that died from starvation would have no need for transportation to a death camp. I think Hitler might have also mentioned his desire for lebensraum once or twice, and the desire to wipe the Bolsheviks from the face of the earth.
It is however, in my eyes not part of the Holocaust, but those Russian POWs, among the first killed at Auschwitz, were part of the Holocaust. Londo06 03:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Btw, I talked to the elderly Polish couple the other day. They said the worst thing they seen was the totally miserable column of the Soviet POWs, and that the Germans warned the locals to not give them any food under the pain of death. I think these old folks were "reliable sources", especially since they didn't like the Soviet Union at all. -- HanzoHattori 12:21, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
How many Soviet POWs were repatriated?
159.105.80.141
12:05, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
12 million people died in the NAZI bastards persecution of Romani and Jews during WW2 other races people were also persecuted and exterminated. How dare you downplay the holocaust like it was something that only happened to jews when everybody knows that more Roma people than jews were killed in WW2. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MadeinFinland ( talk • contribs) 10:55, 28 April 2007 (UTC).
Please use civility when editing. If you want to discuss euthanasia of Gypsies, and can reference and substantiate your words, then start and article on it and stop vandalising the Holocaust article. Going by your obvious lack of encyclopaedic skill and ability to maintain an adult discussion, I think a blog far away from Wikipedia is where you belong. -- Hayden5650 11:04, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Got ya but when we are are dealing with retarded condescending idiots?
This article is currently up for for good article review. When consensus is reached editors will decide whether to list it as a good article, if you have read and understand the criteria feel free to comment here. Quadzilla99 17:44, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Just like Marlon Brando said.....
Paul, please don't keep reverting the lead. Your addition is problematic for two reasons: first, because most scholars and members of the public regard the Holocaust as equivalent to the Final Solution. You may think they ought not to, but they do. Secondly, your sentence basically says "some scholars do include others, but some do not," which isn't good writing, because it's self-evident (obviously if only some do, then clearly some do not). It's better writing and more informative simply to say, as the current lead does, "Many scholars do not include these groups in the definition of the Holocaust, defining it as the genocide of the Jews, or what the Nazis called the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question" ("Die Endlösung der Judenfrage")." SlimVirgin (talk) 09:11, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
A brief look at the discussions above will demomstate that Slim Virgin's preferred edit causes unnecessary dispute and is not even consistent with the footnotes given, vis that the "Columbia guide to the holocaust" says,
"The Holocaust is commonly defined as the murder of more than 5,000,000 Jews by the Germans in World War II." Also see "The Holocaust," Encyclopaedia Britannica, 2007: "the systematic state-sponsored killing of six million Jewish men, women, and children and millions of others by Nazi Germany and its collaborators during World War II. The Germans called this "the final solution to the Jewish question."
Sine the EB clearly says and millions of others it is inaccurate to use this to claim that only Jews are included on ther EB's definition. I do not have access to the Columbia book, but the contents page here strongly suggests that the quotation does not reflect the content of the book as a whole:
Contents
Introduction
I. Historical Overview
Historical Overview
Excluding the Racially Inferior, 1933--1939
War and the Beginning of Genocide, 1939--1941
The Final Solution, 1941--1944
The End of the Holocaust, 1944--1945
Aftermath and Legacies
II. Problems and Interpretations
Defining the Holocaust
The Gypsies
The Mentally and Physically Handicapped
Soviet Prisoners of War
Polish and Soviet Civilians
Political Prisoners, Religious Dissenters, and Homosexuals
Conclusion
I deplore any attempt to minimise the central and distinctive importance of the genocidal aims towards the Jews specifically. There is always a big danger that these lists of victims lead to the impression that Jews were not special. They were, absolutely. But we also have to be fair and accurate when we make claims about sources. Incidentally I far prefer the specific 220,000-500,000 to the rather vague "up to half a million". "Up to" is one of those almost meaningless phrases beloved of journalists, designed to make the high figure prominent and make the lower one vanish from sight. Paul B 09:17, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Holocaust: Hebrew Sho'ah, Yiddish and Hebrew Hurban (“Destruction”) the systematic state-sponsored killing of six million Jewish men, women, and children and millions of others by Nazi Germany and its collaborators during World War II. The Germans called this “the final solution to the Jewish question.” The word Holocaust is derived from the Greek holokauston, a translation of the Hebrew word 'olah, meaning a burnt sacrifice offered whole to God. This word was chosen because in the ultimate manifestation of the Nazi killing program—the extermination camps—the bodies of the victims were consumed whole in crematoria and open fires.
It is not about what is added, but about what is a the most accurate phrasing. I do wish you would stop calling this my edit. In fact the specific phrasing was created by Dinlo juk. What appears on your shelves is neither here nor there. Yes, I have read the EB lead - indeed the whole EB article. You have simply added a here a passage about the origin of the word holocaust, which has no bearing on the issue. It is also, as it happens, misleading. Though holocauston was used to translate Hebrew in the Septuagint, it was not created for that purpose, but described pagan Greek sacrifices. Its use to refer to mass murder, destruction etc in the 20th century was initially unrelated to Judaism. Paul B 10:21, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
I think it needs to be said right up top, as most people see 'The Holocaust' as the Nazi's murderous atrocities inside the camps and the Final Solution as the specific targeting and desired eradication of the Jewish race. Ownership of the Holocaust needs to be addressed as two people can have be talking about two different thematics inside the same article. Alexsanderson83 11:05, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
First, saying "many scholars do not include these groups ..." does not imply that it's right or wrong, and it's anyway not a question of right or wrong; it's simply a matter of definition. Secondly, you say yourself that "Unlike the Jewish people, who are typically well-educated, the Roma have not had scholars who could research their people's history." That seems to be confirming that the mainstream definition does not include them. You keep saying that Holocaust scholars such as Bauer do not represent the majority, but you offer no evidence. All the evidence that I can see — including the couple of dozen books on my shelves about the Holocaust, which were earlier scoffed at — says the opposite. We can dig up source after source after source if you like, but I hope that won't be necessary. In any event, please take the point about the writing. The two versions don't have different meanings. The longer version contains some waffle, introducing the dreaded "some think x, others think x" structure.
It's unfortunate that this is the kind of thing that's being focused on here, when you had an entire section in this article plagiarized from the Encyclopaedia Britannica sitting here for almost a month. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:40, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
SlimVirgin | Paul B/Dinlo juk |
---|---|
Other groups were also persecuted and killed by the regime, including 220,000–500,000 Sinti and Roma (see Porajmos), as well as the disabled (see Action T4), homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Soviet POWs, Polish citizens, and political prisoners. Many scholars do not include these groups in the definition of the Holocaust, defining it as the genocide of the Jews, or what the Nazis called the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question" ("Die Endlösung der Judenfrage"). | Other groups were also persecuted and killed by the regime, including between 220,000 and 500,000 Sinti and Roma (see Porajmos), as well as the disabled (see Action T4), homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Soviet POWs, Polish citizens, and political prisoners. While some scholars include some or all of these groups in the definition of the Holocaust, others restrict its definition to the genocide of the Jews, or what the Nazis called the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question" ("Die Endlösung der Judenfrage"). |
This is what the British govt considers 'The Holocaust' to be. It is also the held position of many scholars along with the public. Think Ownership needs to be addressed up top. Alexsanderson83 21:15, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Holocaust Memorial Day’s aims are to: Remember all victims of the Holocaust and Nazi persecution ; Jews, Roma and Sinti (Gypsies), East European civilians, Russian prisoners of war, trade unionists, communists, political opponents, disabled people, Jehovah’s Witnesses, gay men and lesbians and Black Germans
The entire second section was a copyvio, apparently taken word-for-word from the Encyclopaedia Britannica here, unless they took it from us, which I doubt. The writing was POV and a bit too elaborate for Wikipedia. SlimVirgin (talk) 07:58, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Parts of this article read as though written for children, giving practically no information, and even verging on the offensive. For example:
The persecution and genocide included children, and victims were often tortured before being killed. Nazis carried out deadly medical experiments on prisoners, including children. The guards in the concentration camps carried out beatings and acts of torture on a daily basis. Some women (usually convicted prostitutes) worked in brothels for the guards and privileged prisoners. It has been argued that some were forced to do so.
Time permitting, I'll try to make a start on tidying it. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:21, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
1st paragraph sounds worse now, it really sounds that only Jews were part of the Holocaust, that would ride in the face of many people, included respected scholars. Beyond that I think it could do with a bit of refining for the sake of clarity. Something along the lines of the Holocaust is this. A second paragraph for the word in other cultures and languages. For such an important article it lacks the clarity and consensus to bring it up to a Featured Article standard, something which it should be when several key issues on this talk page are addressed. Londo06 20:50, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I've trying to start a copy edit, but MadeinFinland keeps reverting from under me, so I can't make any progress. Please stop it. It's causing a lot of confusion, because I'm making further changes to sections without realizing that the first changes are gone, so the refs are getting messed up too. SlimVirgin (talk) 21:51, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
For those who are not aware, the inuse tag means an editor is currently involved in overhauling the article. As a courtesy to the editor cleaning up this poorly structured and poorly written article, please allow the edits to be completed so you can see the final product. Thanks. Jayjg (talk) 22:40, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I've added some material from User:Adam Carr, a historian who has written a draft of this article; references need to be added, because Adam listed his sources at the end of his draft rather than inline. It's a big job so patience would be appreciated. I've also started restructuring it; nowhere near finished yet, but I've made a start.
I'd appreciate if people wouldn't start reverting just because something isn't perfect yet. The changes have just started, so there may be unsatisfactory bits, repetition, bits moved and not yet returned, and so on. Please bear with me. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:33, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
As this page was very long, I moved the aftermath section to a new article at After the Holocaust. That brings this article down from 146 to a more manageable 101 kilobytes. If anyone disagrees, feel free to re-add it here, or rename the other one, or whatever. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:44, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
There's a formatting problem after section 4, so that 4.1 etc aren't indented in the toc. I moved a section that was indented properly to that same place in the article, and the indenting broke, as those it's location-dependent, which is weird. Can anyone see how to fix it? SlimVirgin (talk) 00:56, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone think this should be moved to Holocaust (without the definite article)? We do tend to avoid it in article names (see The Doctor, The Master, The Joker (see WP:NCD). I think it would be a controversial move, though, I'm seeing what others think on the subject. Will ( is it can be time for messages now plz?) 16:16, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
While reading on a related subject - hard to see where it would exactly fit in - I read about Ditlieb Felderer. While working for AWAKE ( Jehovah Witness publication he researched the holocaust ( either out of curiousity or a job assignment )he discovered that the published account of 60,000 JW victims was slightly off. Using JW records he found out that there were only 10,000 JWs in Europe and 203 had been "murdered" with 600+- also dying from disease etc. The AWAKE and JWs in general were very mad - I don't think they ever got over it, but in 1974 the AWAKE magazine did admit that 203 was the correct number. A gruesome part of the Felderer research - strange to never have heard of it before - was that most of the 203 were beheaded - Germany's official execution method ( guillotine ). Most, if not all, of the complaints against the JWs were totally groundless ( but of course they wouldn't fight in the army, etc - of course in the US mobs attacked them ). The death counts for JWs should max out at less than 1000 total if you intend to ever list them. Felderer should also probably be listed in the denial article - he did alot of good research - trivia (he threw his shoes into the pile of shoes at Auschwitz?? ). 159.105.80.141 18:07, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
This article used to be so well written. Now someone try to downplay what happened to Romani people as well as other races during WW2. More Romani were exterminated in % than Jews just so you know. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MadeinFinland ( talk • contribs) 20:08, 5 May 2007 (UTC).
I think we are missing a section that describes the background to the Holocaust and puts it into perspective. As it is, we get right into the who, when, how, and what, but we are very short on the why. After all, the Holocaust was a culmination of centuries of antisemitism and pogroms. And the antisemitism was not limited to Europe. As background, in the US in 1939, a Roper poll found that only 39% of Americans felt that Jews should be treated like other people, 53% percent believed that "Jews are different and should be restricted" and 10% believed that Jews should be deported. [3]
The Évian Conference in 1938, "failed to pass even a resolution condemning German treatment of the Jews, a fact that was widely used in Nazi propaganda. The lack of action further emboldened Hitler, proving to him that no country had the moral fortitude to oppose Nazism's assault on European Jewry." (quoting WP)
As another example, the saga of the Voyage of the Damned further proved to Hitler that the West or the Allies would do little to oppose him on the "Jewish Question". So clearly there was background, building up over the centuries, and the humiliation Germany suffered after WWI, coupled with the economic and social distress that followed, were more ingredients that led to the 'why'.
As of now, I cannot find any of this here, although I am sure it is strewn in bits and pieces over many entries. I think this is really needed to paint a more complete picture. I am sure there is no shortage of sources, and much of the material is already in other entries. Comments? Crum375 01:46, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
The new version is a vast improvement. It is easier to read, better organized, and without being able to point to anything in particular, feels more 'authoritative' or 'encyclopedic.'
That being said, a few questions (perhaps these existed before the rewrite).
Again, these comments/questions should be taken in context: they are relatively minor compared to the improvements made over the last several days. Jd2718 12:34, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Jd, why are you removing Warsaw? SlimVirgin (talk) 02:26, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Village in Eastern Bellrussia located 7.5 miles east of Minsk; camp and site of mass murder of Jews. About 200,000 people were murdered in the Trostinets area. About 65,000 were killed in Maly Trostinets, including over 30,000 from the last major aktion in Minsk. Between July 28--31, 1942 and on October 21, 1943 the last Jews from Minsk were murdered and buried in Maly Trostinets and Bolshoi Trostinets. During 1942, Jews from Germany, the Netherlands, Poland, Austria, and the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia were brought by train to be killed in Maly Trostinets. Most of the victims were lined up in front of large pits and shot. Tractors then flattened the pits out. The prisoners in the camp were forced to sort through the victims' possessions and maintain the camp. They occasionally underwent selections (see also Selktion). This happened more frequently during 1943.
I decided to cross check the death toll numbers for the major extermination camps, and used the WP List of Nazi German concentration camps as my reference. I discovered major discrepancies all over - between that list and the numbers in our list here, and in that list I found missing sources, and varying sources. I discovered that the Yadvashem source appears to be the most reliable and consistent compared to the others, so I started using it to update the list article and add the references. Then I updated the Holocaust list numbers also. I invite anyone to please cross-check me or find better i.e. more consistent and/or reliable sources. I do think that procedurally we need to focus on the list article and then copy the numbers here. Thanks, Crum375 03:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Here are the specific documents on the Yad Vashem site that I used for the numbers. If we decide to include them, it should be easy to copy them into the article at any time:
Crum375 05:53, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Do you have a link to any studies on Janenovac and/or Maly Trostinets? I searched for Janenovac and got only one hit - in a language I can't even guess at. The numbers seem so large - almost total Auscwitz - it seems strange that these should only pop up now. No wiki article ( other than this talk page ). It appears that there was no burning, etc of the bodies - unless the story expands - so this would be a real forensic bonanza.
159.105.80.141
11:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
The numbers for the Jasenovac extermination camp are greatly exaggarated! It was mostly because of the serbian propaghanda machine. All the experts agreee the number of victims in Jasenovac to be around 80.000 ppl (no more than 100.000), with around 12.000 jews murdered and the rest being gipsies, serbs, croats and others...
http://www.jusp-jasenovac.hr/index_en.php
Vanja Goldberger vanja.goldberger@sabor.hr You can ask at the jasenovac monumet and
Slash, can you say why you keep changing the formatting of the other links? [4] SlimVirgin (talk) 03:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
After the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939) a great number of Spanish Republicans went to exile in different European countries. Many were politically active ranging from socialists, to communists, to anarchists. After the fall of France, many Spanish Republicans were sent to concentration camps, notably Mauthausen-Gusen (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauthausen-Gusen_concentration_camp). See also the special badge "S" (Republikanische Spanier, Republican Spanish) at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camp_badges
The number of Spaniards that died in concentration are of the order of 10,000. So, I'd like to make a mention of this in the "3.2 Non-Jewish victims" section of the main article.
David Wingeate Pike, Emeritus Distinguished Professor of History, The American University of Paris, published "Spaniards in the Holocaust: Mauthausen, the Horror on the Danube" (ISBN-10: 0415227801) in 2000 analyzing the topic.
The site In http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Mauthausen/KZMauthausen/History/SpanishRepublicans.html mentions "23,400 Spanish prisoners were registered at Mauthausen and its subcamps and that 16,310 of them died, leaving around 9,200 survivors." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.9.208.189 ( talk) 03:23, 8 May 2007 (UTC).
Think this wants altering to give an understanding to why some people say 6 and the other will say 12. It should address this issue rather than when the word was first uttered. 86.149.209.189 16:39, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
World at War shows that Gypsies were gassed, why do so many want to dismiss the pain of others, suffered often side by side at the hands of the Nazis. 86.149.209.189 23:16, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
i was wondering, did hitler kill off those who had brown hair and eyes (such as himself)? i was wantin to know if that's true. 168.103.247.124 19:35, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
I have always wondered what data the six million figure is based on. Now I just heard that the death toll for Auschwitz has officially been revised down to 1.5 million from 4 million. How does this affect the figure of 6 million total murdered in the Holocaust? Is it now 3.5 million? How is this figure arrived at? Amity150 05:42, 9 May 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Amity150 ( talk • contribs) 05:36, 9 May 2007 (UTC).
Thank you, I did read the article, but it gives me no idea how the figure of six million is arrived at. Could we say how the research arriving at this figure was conducted, what is was based on, etc.? There must have been some research conducted! Or is everyone just ballparking it based on whatever criteria seem appropriate to them? Amity150 13:49, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
It would help if verifiable sources could be found, period. Amity150 21:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
The two sides of the Holocaust debate are largely focused on the numbers issue; it is six million or is it (up to) twelve. Holocaust Deniers are rightfully seen as abhorrent self-deluding individuals who would do we would do well to shut up. However, would to deny that Gypsies gassed upon arrival, non-Jewish children, women, etc being killed on arrival and that they do not deserve to be included in some peoples definition of the Holocaust, is that not a bastardised form of 'Holocaust Denial' or selective denial. 86.149.209.189 12:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Part of denial is that the holocaust is a myth made out of whole cloth by the Jews. I can see the Jews disgust at other groups trying to glom onto their idea. Forget the gypsies, etc - the Jews know they are full of it - they ( the Jews) have the inside story on this - they know when someone is faking it. The Jehovahs Witnesses tried it up to 1974 ( they are still included by some who don't read much). In 1974 the JWs reduced their body count from 60,000 to 203 ( they got caught in a minor exaggeration). The gypsies et al are as documented in the holocaust as my dog. Keep this a 100% Jewish event - keeps it easier to argue, research, and shortens up the sentences. 159.105.80.141 12:17, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
So everyone killed upon arrival for being old, a communist, etc. sorry but its easier to leave you out. But a guy who was 1/4 Jewish, never been to a Synagogue, he is part of the Holocaust. To me that is selective denial. 86.149.209.189 12:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
JWs- 1974 AWAKE magazine - research by Ditlieb Felderer. Gypsies - do you have any documentation ( not just gypsies ). Documentation of a positive type seems hard to come by. Circular documentation ( a rumor documenting a rumor ) shouldn't count. Rarely are such well-known events held together only by dint of the hard verbal work of so many adherents. If the JWs had more energy and cash they might have fought on for the 60,000 number but they lacked that ole college spirit ( however, many proholocaust supporters continue to throw them in without their pushing for the favor - glomming without trying ( can't think of the term to use - probably just trying to beef up a story with examples of co-sufferers ( of course 203 isn't 0 so there is some facts behind it). Any numbers for gypsies and/or other none Jewish groups - 203 = JWs, 48 = homosexuals( per wiki )- gypsies = ? ( I doubt many, but they may have more staying power than JWs or homosexuals).
159.105.80.141
13:39, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Verifiable sources - if the AWAKE magazine isn't a verifiable source on JW then what is?
159.105.80.141
11:27, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
The map showing mass deportations of Jews contains a number of errors. The concentration camp in Bohemia called Theresienstadt is labelled Thrasenstate. I don't know who the cartographer is but there are numerous boundary errors too (e.g. Luxemburg is left outside the Reich and the Austrian parts of the Sudetenland have been detatched from Ostmark). ( Landau7 17:02, 9 May 2007 (UTC))
Someone changed gays to homosexuals in the header, saying that gay is offensive as a noun, but I see it as the other way round. Here are some articles by Peter Tatchell, well-known gay rights campaigner in the UK. [5] In them, he uses gay as a noun and adjective, and queer e.g. here. [6] He uses homosexual as an adjective too, though I couldn't find him using it as a noun. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:25, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Do we have a policy on the use of gay as a noun on wikipedia? Personally I'd regard it as least preferable, with gay people (or some variant with lesbian in) at the top, and homosexual in the middle. Certainly I'd resist using gay as a noun, and it seems that so do many others, e.g. the Guardian: "use as an adjective rather than a noun: a gay man, gay people, gay men and lesbians not "gays and lesbians"" and the BBC: "...gay" should be used only as an adjective. "Gay" as a noun - "gays gathered for a demonstration" - is not acceptable. If you wish to use homosexual, as adjective or noun, do so. It is also useful, as it applies to men and women". And then when we've resolved that we can move on to "the disabled" (cf. here: "disabled people not 'the disabled'"). -- Coroebus 17:30, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Is there something wrong with the word gay. In the eyes of many it is a sin, but I don't think it is an offensive word. Homosexual is a cover-all word, Gay would seem more appropriate to what a man is, rather than a womans state of mind, lesbian is obvious. 90.197.27.236 17:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Negro is commonly used here in New Zealand, and holds no racist meaning. Colored here is Generally used by whites to describe non-whites, and by anyone to describe a halfcast or mixed race person. -- Hayden5650 04:52, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
All of the images are on one side. Some of the images need to be moved to the left side of the article.-- Sefringle 06:00, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
This is especially true in the "Wannsee Conference and the final solution (1942–1945)" section, though I'm not going to edit this section, since the formatting seems kind of complex. I think this article might have a few too many images.-- Sefringle 06:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Can we remove Image:Liberté chérie2.jpg? This seems to be trivial to the purpose of this article.-- Sefringle 06:30, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, it seems like just a picture of a rock with some reinforcing mesh over it. It serves no real purpose. -- Hayden5650 06:32, 10 May 2007 (GMT)
I am also not sure what the purpose of Image:Heinrich Himmler, Richard Heydrich, Karl Wolf.JPG is. I think we should also remove one of the Auschwitz I images: either Image:Rail leading to Auschwitz II (Birkenau).jpg or Image:Arbeit-auschwitz04.jpg. I prefer removing the first one, since the second is a much nicer picture.-- Sefringle 06:41, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
As most people probably recognize Nazi as the more notable term, we should use Nazi to describe the German regime, rather than National Socialist regime.-- Sefringle 06:39, 10 May 2007 (UTC) hehehe hello
Load of bollocks. Nazi is not what they referred to themselves as. So unless we start calling blacks colored and negro and jews kikes, why should we treat the National Socialist German Workers' Party any different? Remember, NPOV in wikipedia. -- Hayden5650 08:40, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
NPOV please. The NSDAP never even broke a law. They entered power legally, and their 'victims' had ample oppurtunity to leave.-- Hayden5650 10:53, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I'll leave Nazi, so long as it is not used in a derogatory way, if you leave homosexuals as homosexuals. -- Hayden5650 12:45, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I note that this user has a history of disruptively editing articles to push a negative POV toward gays and lesbians. Just look at his contribs. FCYTravis 21:06, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I tried to improve & simplify it and make it more consistent with other WP articles. I suggest we use wiki rather than html syntax, and reserve {{ quotation}} for quotations rather than {{ see}}. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 11:20, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
In your list of Axis powers, you forget to mention that Iraq in 1941, after a pro-Nazi coup, joined the Axis, as did the Arab in Palestine, led by the pro-Nazi Mufti-- Herut 17:46, 10 May 2007 (UTC) Haj Amin El Husseini. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Herut ( talk -- Herut 17:47, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Berenbaum gives one translation for the Babi Yar notice. The Babi Yar article give another (anonymous) one. Given that Berenbaum is a reliable source, why would we choose the anonymous source over Berenbaum? Jayjg (talk) 01:48, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I have reverted the latest translation from deathcamps.org, as I am not sure about the relative merit of that translation vs. the one from Berenbaum we had before. I think we need to sort that out before replacing it. Also, the edit I reverted broke the reference to Berenbaum source lower down - if you make an edit, please make sure you don't cause collateral damage. Thanks, Crum375 00:18, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
If you must "resolve" differences, then the clearly more RS should stay in the interim. Berenbaum missed the German, invented an exclamation point, and all around seems to have provided a loose translation. Further, his status as a RS should be questioned. Jd2718 00:19, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi, you know the picture with the corpses and stuff, is that really nessecary? I find it really disturbing and i think a lot of other people probably do as well. maybe do you think we could put a warning or something? thanks. Jimmyswift 03:43, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Toughen up. No censoring on here mate. It's just a few dead bodies there are much worse things in the world to see than that. -- Hayden5650 10:54, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
It's not worth investigating. There's supposed to be no censorship on here. If we start this, before you know it articles will be being given R18 classifications and so on. -- Hayden5650 22:55, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
My articles have often been criticised of not having enough original sources. After reading through this article I have yet to see one piece of evidence that isn't second-hand from a holocaust historian. Where are the original sources? Is there even the name of one witness provided in this article? Saying something is one thing, it actually being correct is another. If a historian is incorrect and then another historian quotes him, this does not make the original claim any more correct! Individual claims need individual references! -- Delos 03:44, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I am puzzled that [Jayjg] deleted the paras that I inserted yesterday with the comment: (the article is already quite long; these sections are very short, and all based on one article. They should probably be incorporated in another way). I would agree that the sections are quite short, but I believe informative. Perhaps two of the sections, condemnation by birth and totality could be combined. I realize that the article long which is one of the reasons that I inserted small sections. Clearly the points belong in the Distinctive features section, add important new distinctions. It is not based at all on one article, the reference is to a well-known book which includes many references. I added the speech so that someone who does not have access to the book could read a summary of the points. I do not believe that these are adequate grounds for deleting the paras which were painfully posted using a slow connection as I am in the depths of France at the moment. Joel Mc 07:15, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Could people please stop pissing around moving the photos you're really screwing up the article. They all belong on the right hand side. -- Hayden5650 10:56, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I was annoyed when i wrote that comment. I realise they should be nicely for aesthetics etc, and already where some on the left hand side. However, someone moved them lastnight, apparently for the sake of moving them and it really screwed with the paragraphs and made huge gaps. -- Hayden5650 23:10, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Sefringle, what is your problem exactly? You've been told that the article is undergoing a rewrite. This isn't something that can happen overnight. We're adding some text, removing other text, adding images, adding sources. What exactly is the point of adding huge amounts of citation needed tags, and tagging the entire article, even though it already has 127 separate footnotes? You're asking for a source for "In all Nazi camps there were very high death rates as a result of starvation, disease and exhaustion, but only the extermination camps were designed specifically for mass killing," when the entire section on the Wannsee Conference explains that those camps were set up for the purpose of mass murder, and it explains why.
It's not a helpful contribution. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:16, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
the beginning of the section now reads, in part "During 1942, in addition to Auschwitz, five other camps were designated as extermination camps (Vernichtungslager) for the carrying out of the Reinhard plan." My understanding is that only 4, Auschwitz + the 3 new ones, were Aktion Reinhard camps. Can the "designated as extermination camps" be sourced or, if it cannot be, can it be reworded? Jd2718 12:04, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
The old article was showing quite well where there is controversy on aspects of the Holocaust, heck, it was even showing the mixed views within German officials. The current article is very streamlined - like copied from the pages of a middle school textbook. Simplification is okay for teaching an introductory lesson but a historic record should convey the complexity as it occurred in reality - where there is no single answer on the motivations and where actions had various side effects allowing the horror not to unfold linearly. An encyclopedia is a good point of reference to all those further reading parts - please don't make them just footnotes or even subject to the "search" button. Have a heart and put some complexity back in, thanks, Guidod 22:41, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Not even a word about the Righteous among the nations (the footnote link could not be fair solution for any uninformed reader!). Not even a word about any salvation of any Jewish community. The word "salvation" even doesn't exist in the present article. Speculative information about Bulgarian Jews (in the proper Bulgarian territory there were only 48,000 Jews). The result: one-sided, biased and tendentious article. - Jackanapes 13:24, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Because there were rescued Jewish communities. - Jackanapes 13:36, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
P. s. And, of course, there were many non-Jewish persons and non-Jewish communities, who struggled against the Holocaust. Some of them - successfully. There is section "Jewish resistance", but where is the section "Non-Jewish resistance"? Isn't this a symptom of one-sidedness? - Jackanapes 13:41, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't know what Jacknapes is referring to exactly but I will tell you one thing: the highest death rates in Europe were in the Bulgarian occupied areas of Yugoslavia and Greece. This version is bad enough with this ommssion, looking at the old version it implies Jews there were arrested by German authorites. That is false. The Bulgarian authorities, backed by Bulgarian army and Bulgarian gendarmes and Bulgarian nationalists, arrested almost every single Jew in those places on Passover of 1943. They were transported by Bulgarian transport from Yugoslavia and Greece, through Bulgaria, and handed off to to German authorites there to be taken to Treblinka. I know as all my grandparents were among those taken by the Bulgarians from their town in Greece.
That tiny handful that escaped did so with the assistance of the Greeks, the Greek resistance and Greek priests-- under penalty of death -- where they went to Palestine, Turkey, or incredibly a place where they had a better chance of survival -- the German occupied zone of Greece!
The general implications of survival rates are a perversion. some of the countries where Jewish death rates are the highest are ALSO the same places where the non Jewish population suffered the highest death rates at the hand of the Axis because of general resistance to occupation as well as resistance to the deportation of their Jewish countrymen. Greece and Yugoslavia are not put inot proper context when balanced against Bulgaria -- which occupied parts of those countries and which as part of ethnic cleansing policy implimented the Holocaust against the Jews in those occupied territories.
As someone whose family was deported by the Bulgarians I would ask why doesn't the Box list in this article which shows "responsible parties" include Bulgaria? IsaacBR 17:35, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I am prevented from editing this page but whoever wrote: "Bulgaria and Finland introduced no anti-Jewish measures at all, and Hungary did so only after the country was occupied by Germany in 1944." has got to be kidding. IsaacBR 17:38, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Could a link be placed somewhere in the article to associate it with Holocaust denial? Discgolfrules 21:42, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I urge editors interested in the Holocaust to take care of the stub Dzyatlava massacre, which is currently linkless. -- Ghirla -трёп- 09:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I had added a subtitle to the Roma section, thus changing the title to "Roma (Gypsies)". North Americans refer to Roma very frequently as Gypsies, and the term is not generally derogatory when used as such. I did kindly notice that an individual who appears to be a British contributor removed the subtitle. I respect his copious, quality edits, but I do kindly ask him and the Wikipedia community to reconsider the subtitle removal; if you say "Roma" to a NoAm (in the sense of referring to this people), he/she likely won't know what you are talking about without further explanation/references. Yet, I realize that Roma is the "educated" term for this people. Further debate and discussion welcomed (I did not revert the aforementioned revert, btw). — Catdude 05:38, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
In New Zealand, Gypsies are called Gypsies and is not derogatory. Roma is unheard of -- Hayden5650 07:02, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I have lived in both Europe and North America I would agree that the term gypsy is not generally considered derogatory. However, I have often heard Roma feelings that it is. Thus the Wikipedia entry for gypsy states "The term is sometimes considered to be derogatory." If an internal link were made, then it would be clearer. Joel Mc 07:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Please forgive me for pointing it out, but Jehovah's Witnesses wore a purple triangle in the camps. This can be easily verified.
Neutral reader, skimming the article for the first time in some time. In the following paragraph under "Definition", I am curious/desiring clarification (albeit not necessarily saying the article needs it):
The word "holocaust" is also used in a wider sense to describe other actions of the Nazi regime. These include the killing of around half a million Roma and Sinti, the deaths of several million Soviet prisoners of war, the killing of the intelligentsia, slave laborers, gays, Jehovah's Witnesses, the disabled, and political opponents.
Just wondering who the 'intelligentsia' were in this context and why they were killed. (I do know the definition of the word.) I guess I've never run across this one before, or it's just not clicking with anything I've read previously. Possible overlap with 'political opponents'? Again, just my own curiousity. -- Thessaly 02:29, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
The numbers for gays and Jehovahs Witnesses seem to be 48 and 203 deaths - not counting disease ( 600-800 for JWs, ? for gays). These numbers are considerable revisions from original estimates. Has any real research been done on the other groups?
159.105.80.141
13:11, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
This article is currently 120 kilobytes long, so perhaps it's time to think about trimming or splitting. see: Article length#A rule of thumb I added the {toolong} tag but was reverted without comment. What does everyone think? Cheers — dv82matt 06:23, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
The main thing about Croats killing Serbs, it was not even part of Holocaust, but of the then-even-more savage Balkan ethnic conflict. Sure, they killed the Jews too - but so did the German-supported Serbs (in turn, the communists exterminated Axis and former Axis civilians later). Hitler did not want Serbs exterminated, or even just Serbs in Croatia, more then he wanted the French.
This is like if the Polish victims of the Polish-Ukrainian ethnic conflict (some Ukrainian formations were German-supported or even run, including SS) were the victims of Holocaust - no one does this. I believe the Serbs should be excluded, as they were not the victims of the Nazi racial policy. But as for now: Discuss. -- HanzoHattori 17:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Jackanapes, your new section mixes up rescuers with resistance, going back and forth without a connecting narrative, and repeating material that's in other sections. The article is too long to get into rescuers and collaborators, which is why both were moved to other pages. It's best to leave this page for the core Holocaust issues. The longest FA is 121 kilobytes, and we're already at 120 (not that I'm saying this is ready for FA status, and I'll be surprised if it ever gets there, but it's good to use those standards as a guide). SlimVirgin (talk) 23:32, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Then shorten some other sections and develope that section in a better way! - Jackanapes 13:39, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
P. s. By the way, there are several section, which repeat several main articles:
Etymology and use of the term Main article: Names of the Holocaust
Roma Main article: Porajmos
Death squads (1941–1943) Main article: Einsatzgruppen
Death marches (1944–1945) Main article: Death marches (Holocaust)
Why don't you erase them as well with purpose to shorten the article if its length is so worring? - Jackanapes 13:57, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I submitted a post earlier this evening correcting the story of the medical experiment performed on the twins sewn back-to-back. The ending of the account in the article is incorrect. Eyewitness testimony from the War Crimes Trials indicates that the twins died of gargarene and were not euthanized with morphine. Someone deleted my scholarly post, calling it "vandalism" simply because I did not create an account. I posted my email address in the event the article is updated so I can provide a bibilographical reference for my source materials. However, instead of actually READING my post, this other user simply deleted it because I prefer to have the system automatically submit my IP address instead of using my account name. This is my right and I find this other person's actions both inappropriate and a deliberate hindrance to correcting serious errors in the article. Email: metalmuse@juno.com DO NOT DELETE THIS POST. The article as stated is incorrect. If you're the author, then grow up and admit you made a mistake instead of trying to delete submissions requesting correction. The Holocaust is too important a topic to have historical errors propagated on a popular site like Wikipedia.
Er... I don't want to accuse anyone of Holocaust denial here, but 3 million Catholics died in the Holocaust, last I checked. I don't see any mention of this at all on this page, though I could swear it was here six months ago. -- Kendrick7 talk 04:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Celtic Emperor 18:26, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Celtic Emperor 21:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I've gone back and looked through the article history. The mention seems to have gone from 3,000,000 Catholics, to 3m Polish Catholics, to 3 million Polish Christian/Catholics, to Christian Poles, to non-Jewish Poles (without a number, but, hey, at least two). But, there were never good inline citations for any of this going back. Presumably, the fact is somewhere in one of the Holocaust (resources). -- Kendrick7 talk 03:58, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Was Herr. Adolf Hitler, Führer des Große Deutsches Reich, really a Catholic? really? Where's the proof? I always assumed him to be protestant. -- Hayden5650 10:02, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I am Protestant by the way -- Hayden5650 10:02, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't it point directly to Nazi concentration camps rather than the generic concentration camp article?
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | → | Archive 20 |
but there is little evidence[citation needed] that the Nazis planned to systematically target them for genocide as was the case for the groups above.
With regards to the Soviet POWs, that may well be due to the fact that the German command had not allowed for food for all those captured, thus all the hundreds of thousands of Soviet POWs that died from starvation would have no need for transportation to a death camp. I think Hitler might have also mentioned his desire for lebensraum once or twice, and the desire to wipe the Bolsheviks from the face of the earth.
It is however, in my eyes not part of the Holocaust, but those Russian POWs, among the first killed at Auschwitz, were part of the Holocaust. Londo06 03:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Btw, I talked to the elderly Polish couple the other day. They said the worst thing they seen was the totally miserable column of the Soviet POWs, and that the Germans warned the locals to not give them any food under the pain of death. I think these old folks were "reliable sources", especially since they didn't like the Soviet Union at all. -- HanzoHattori 12:21, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
How many Soviet POWs were repatriated?
159.105.80.141
12:05, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
12 million people died in the NAZI bastards persecution of Romani and Jews during WW2 other races people were also persecuted and exterminated. How dare you downplay the holocaust like it was something that only happened to jews when everybody knows that more Roma people than jews were killed in WW2. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MadeinFinland ( talk • contribs) 10:55, 28 April 2007 (UTC).
Please use civility when editing. If you want to discuss euthanasia of Gypsies, and can reference and substantiate your words, then start and article on it and stop vandalising the Holocaust article. Going by your obvious lack of encyclopaedic skill and ability to maintain an adult discussion, I think a blog far away from Wikipedia is where you belong. -- Hayden5650 11:04, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Got ya but when we are are dealing with retarded condescending idiots?
This article is currently up for for good article review. When consensus is reached editors will decide whether to list it as a good article, if you have read and understand the criteria feel free to comment here. Quadzilla99 17:44, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Just like Marlon Brando said.....
Paul, please don't keep reverting the lead. Your addition is problematic for two reasons: first, because most scholars and members of the public regard the Holocaust as equivalent to the Final Solution. You may think they ought not to, but they do. Secondly, your sentence basically says "some scholars do include others, but some do not," which isn't good writing, because it's self-evident (obviously if only some do, then clearly some do not). It's better writing and more informative simply to say, as the current lead does, "Many scholars do not include these groups in the definition of the Holocaust, defining it as the genocide of the Jews, or what the Nazis called the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question" ("Die Endlösung der Judenfrage")." SlimVirgin (talk) 09:11, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
A brief look at the discussions above will demomstate that Slim Virgin's preferred edit causes unnecessary dispute and is not even consistent with the footnotes given, vis that the "Columbia guide to the holocaust" says,
"The Holocaust is commonly defined as the murder of more than 5,000,000 Jews by the Germans in World War II." Also see "The Holocaust," Encyclopaedia Britannica, 2007: "the systematic state-sponsored killing of six million Jewish men, women, and children and millions of others by Nazi Germany and its collaborators during World War II. The Germans called this "the final solution to the Jewish question."
Sine the EB clearly says and millions of others it is inaccurate to use this to claim that only Jews are included on ther EB's definition. I do not have access to the Columbia book, but the contents page here strongly suggests that the quotation does not reflect the content of the book as a whole:
Contents
Introduction
I. Historical Overview
Historical Overview
Excluding the Racially Inferior, 1933--1939
War and the Beginning of Genocide, 1939--1941
The Final Solution, 1941--1944
The End of the Holocaust, 1944--1945
Aftermath and Legacies
II. Problems and Interpretations
Defining the Holocaust
The Gypsies
The Mentally and Physically Handicapped
Soviet Prisoners of War
Polish and Soviet Civilians
Political Prisoners, Religious Dissenters, and Homosexuals
Conclusion
I deplore any attempt to minimise the central and distinctive importance of the genocidal aims towards the Jews specifically. There is always a big danger that these lists of victims lead to the impression that Jews were not special. They were, absolutely. But we also have to be fair and accurate when we make claims about sources. Incidentally I far prefer the specific 220,000-500,000 to the rather vague "up to half a million". "Up to" is one of those almost meaningless phrases beloved of journalists, designed to make the high figure prominent and make the lower one vanish from sight. Paul B 09:17, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Holocaust: Hebrew Sho'ah, Yiddish and Hebrew Hurban (“Destruction”) the systematic state-sponsored killing of six million Jewish men, women, and children and millions of others by Nazi Germany and its collaborators during World War II. The Germans called this “the final solution to the Jewish question.” The word Holocaust is derived from the Greek holokauston, a translation of the Hebrew word 'olah, meaning a burnt sacrifice offered whole to God. This word was chosen because in the ultimate manifestation of the Nazi killing program—the extermination camps—the bodies of the victims were consumed whole in crematoria and open fires.
It is not about what is added, but about what is a the most accurate phrasing. I do wish you would stop calling this my edit. In fact the specific phrasing was created by Dinlo juk. What appears on your shelves is neither here nor there. Yes, I have read the EB lead - indeed the whole EB article. You have simply added a here a passage about the origin of the word holocaust, which has no bearing on the issue. It is also, as it happens, misleading. Though holocauston was used to translate Hebrew in the Septuagint, it was not created for that purpose, but described pagan Greek sacrifices. Its use to refer to mass murder, destruction etc in the 20th century was initially unrelated to Judaism. Paul B 10:21, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
I think it needs to be said right up top, as most people see 'The Holocaust' as the Nazi's murderous atrocities inside the camps and the Final Solution as the specific targeting and desired eradication of the Jewish race. Ownership of the Holocaust needs to be addressed as two people can have be talking about two different thematics inside the same article. Alexsanderson83 11:05, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
First, saying "many scholars do not include these groups ..." does not imply that it's right or wrong, and it's anyway not a question of right or wrong; it's simply a matter of definition. Secondly, you say yourself that "Unlike the Jewish people, who are typically well-educated, the Roma have not had scholars who could research their people's history." That seems to be confirming that the mainstream definition does not include them. You keep saying that Holocaust scholars such as Bauer do not represent the majority, but you offer no evidence. All the evidence that I can see — including the couple of dozen books on my shelves about the Holocaust, which were earlier scoffed at — says the opposite. We can dig up source after source after source if you like, but I hope that won't be necessary. In any event, please take the point about the writing. The two versions don't have different meanings. The longer version contains some waffle, introducing the dreaded "some think x, others think x" structure.
It's unfortunate that this is the kind of thing that's being focused on here, when you had an entire section in this article plagiarized from the Encyclopaedia Britannica sitting here for almost a month. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:40, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
SlimVirgin | Paul B/Dinlo juk |
---|---|
Other groups were also persecuted and killed by the regime, including 220,000–500,000 Sinti and Roma (see Porajmos), as well as the disabled (see Action T4), homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Soviet POWs, Polish citizens, and political prisoners. Many scholars do not include these groups in the definition of the Holocaust, defining it as the genocide of the Jews, or what the Nazis called the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question" ("Die Endlösung der Judenfrage"). | Other groups were also persecuted and killed by the regime, including between 220,000 and 500,000 Sinti and Roma (see Porajmos), as well as the disabled (see Action T4), homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Soviet POWs, Polish citizens, and political prisoners. While some scholars include some or all of these groups in the definition of the Holocaust, others restrict its definition to the genocide of the Jews, or what the Nazis called the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question" ("Die Endlösung der Judenfrage"). |
This is what the British govt considers 'The Holocaust' to be. It is also the held position of many scholars along with the public. Think Ownership needs to be addressed up top. Alexsanderson83 21:15, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Holocaust Memorial Day’s aims are to: Remember all victims of the Holocaust and Nazi persecution ; Jews, Roma and Sinti (Gypsies), East European civilians, Russian prisoners of war, trade unionists, communists, political opponents, disabled people, Jehovah’s Witnesses, gay men and lesbians and Black Germans
The entire second section was a copyvio, apparently taken word-for-word from the Encyclopaedia Britannica here, unless they took it from us, which I doubt. The writing was POV and a bit too elaborate for Wikipedia. SlimVirgin (talk) 07:58, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Parts of this article read as though written for children, giving practically no information, and even verging on the offensive. For example:
The persecution and genocide included children, and victims were often tortured before being killed. Nazis carried out deadly medical experiments on prisoners, including children. The guards in the concentration camps carried out beatings and acts of torture on a daily basis. Some women (usually convicted prostitutes) worked in brothels for the guards and privileged prisoners. It has been argued that some were forced to do so.
Time permitting, I'll try to make a start on tidying it. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:21, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
1st paragraph sounds worse now, it really sounds that only Jews were part of the Holocaust, that would ride in the face of many people, included respected scholars. Beyond that I think it could do with a bit of refining for the sake of clarity. Something along the lines of the Holocaust is this. A second paragraph for the word in other cultures and languages. For such an important article it lacks the clarity and consensus to bring it up to a Featured Article standard, something which it should be when several key issues on this talk page are addressed. Londo06 20:50, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I've trying to start a copy edit, but MadeinFinland keeps reverting from under me, so I can't make any progress. Please stop it. It's causing a lot of confusion, because I'm making further changes to sections without realizing that the first changes are gone, so the refs are getting messed up too. SlimVirgin (talk) 21:51, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
For those who are not aware, the inuse tag means an editor is currently involved in overhauling the article. As a courtesy to the editor cleaning up this poorly structured and poorly written article, please allow the edits to be completed so you can see the final product. Thanks. Jayjg (talk) 22:40, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I've added some material from User:Adam Carr, a historian who has written a draft of this article; references need to be added, because Adam listed his sources at the end of his draft rather than inline. It's a big job so patience would be appreciated. I've also started restructuring it; nowhere near finished yet, but I've made a start.
I'd appreciate if people wouldn't start reverting just because something isn't perfect yet. The changes have just started, so there may be unsatisfactory bits, repetition, bits moved and not yet returned, and so on. Please bear with me. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:33, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
As this page was very long, I moved the aftermath section to a new article at After the Holocaust. That brings this article down from 146 to a more manageable 101 kilobytes. If anyone disagrees, feel free to re-add it here, or rename the other one, or whatever. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:44, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
There's a formatting problem after section 4, so that 4.1 etc aren't indented in the toc. I moved a section that was indented properly to that same place in the article, and the indenting broke, as those it's location-dependent, which is weird. Can anyone see how to fix it? SlimVirgin (talk) 00:56, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone think this should be moved to Holocaust (without the definite article)? We do tend to avoid it in article names (see The Doctor, The Master, The Joker (see WP:NCD). I think it would be a controversial move, though, I'm seeing what others think on the subject. Will ( is it can be time for messages now plz?) 16:16, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
While reading on a related subject - hard to see where it would exactly fit in - I read about Ditlieb Felderer. While working for AWAKE ( Jehovah Witness publication he researched the holocaust ( either out of curiousity or a job assignment )he discovered that the published account of 60,000 JW victims was slightly off. Using JW records he found out that there were only 10,000 JWs in Europe and 203 had been "murdered" with 600+- also dying from disease etc. The AWAKE and JWs in general were very mad - I don't think they ever got over it, but in 1974 the AWAKE magazine did admit that 203 was the correct number. A gruesome part of the Felderer research - strange to never have heard of it before - was that most of the 203 were beheaded - Germany's official execution method ( guillotine ). Most, if not all, of the complaints against the JWs were totally groundless ( but of course they wouldn't fight in the army, etc - of course in the US mobs attacked them ). The death counts for JWs should max out at less than 1000 total if you intend to ever list them. Felderer should also probably be listed in the denial article - he did alot of good research - trivia (he threw his shoes into the pile of shoes at Auschwitz?? ). 159.105.80.141 18:07, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
This article used to be so well written. Now someone try to downplay what happened to Romani people as well as other races during WW2. More Romani were exterminated in % than Jews just so you know. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MadeinFinland ( talk • contribs) 20:08, 5 May 2007 (UTC).
I think we are missing a section that describes the background to the Holocaust and puts it into perspective. As it is, we get right into the who, when, how, and what, but we are very short on the why. After all, the Holocaust was a culmination of centuries of antisemitism and pogroms. And the antisemitism was not limited to Europe. As background, in the US in 1939, a Roper poll found that only 39% of Americans felt that Jews should be treated like other people, 53% percent believed that "Jews are different and should be restricted" and 10% believed that Jews should be deported. [3]
The Évian Conference in 1938, "failed to pass even a resolution condemning German treatment of the Jews, a fact that was widely used in Nazi propaganda. The lack of action further emboldened Hitler, proving to him that no country had the moral fortitude to oppose Nazism's assault on European Jewry." (quoting WP)
As another example, the saga of the Voyage of the Damned further proved to Hitler that the West or the Allies would do little to oppose him on the "Jewish Question". So clearly there was background, building up over the centuries, and the humiliation Germany suffered after WWI, coupled with the economic and social distress that followed, were more ingredients that led to the 'why'.
As of now, I cannot find any of this here, although I am sure it is strewn in bits and pieces over many entries. I think this is really needed to paint a more complete picture. I am sure there is no shortage of sources, and much of the material is already in other entries. Comments? Crum375 01:46, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
The new version is a vast improvement. It is easier to read, better organized, and without being able to point to anything in particular, feels more 'authoritative' or 'encyclopedic.'
That being said, a few questions (perhaps these existed before the rewrite).
Again, these comments/questions should be taken in context: they are relatively minor compared to the improvements made over the last several days. Jd2718 12:34, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Jd, why are you removing Warsaw? SlimVirgin (talk) 02:26, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Village in Eastern Bellrussia located 7.5 miles east of Minsk; camp and site of mass murder of Jews. About 200,000 people were murdered in the Trostinets area. About 65,000 were killed in Maly Trostinets, including over 30,000 from the last major aktion in Minsk. Between July 28--31, 1942 and on October 21, 1943 the last Jews from Minsk were murdered and buried in Maly Trostinets and Bolshoi Trostinets. During 1942, Jews from Germany, the Netherlands, Poland, Austria, and the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia were brought by train to be killed in Maly Trostinets. Most of the victims were lined up in front of large pits and shot. Tractors then flattened the pits out. The prisoners in the camp were forced to sort through the victims' possessions and maintain the camp. They occasionally underwent selections (see also Selktion). This happened more frequently during 1943.
I decided to cross check the death toll numbers for the major extermination camps, and used the WP List of Nazi German concentration camps as my reference. I discovered major discrepancies all over - between that list and the numbers in our list here, and in that list I found missing sources, and varying sources. I discovered that the Yadvashem source appears to be the most reliable and consistent compared to the others, so I started using it to update the list article and add the references. Then I updated the Holocaust list numbers also. I invite anyone to please cross-check me or find better i.e. more consistent and/or reliable sources. I do think that procedurally we need to focus on the list article and then copy the numbers here. Thanks, Crum375 03:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Here are the specific documents on the Yad Vashem site that I used for the numbers. If we decide to include them, it should be easy to copy them into the article at any time:
Crum375 05:53, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Do you have a link to any studies on Janenovac and/or Maly Trostinets? I searched for Janenovac and got only one hit - in a language I can't even guess at. The numbers seem so large - almost total Auscwitz - it seems strange that these should only pop up now. No wiki article ( other than this talk page ). It appears that there was no burning, etc of the bodies - unless the story expands - so this would be a real forensic bonanza.
159.105.80.141
11:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
The numbers for the Jasenovac extermination camp are greatly exaggarated! It was mostly because of the serbian propaghanda machine. All the experts agreee the number of victims in Jasenovac to be around 80.000 ppl (no more than 100.000), with around 12.000 jews murdered and the rest being gipsies, serbs, croats and others...
http://www.jusp-jasenovac.hr/index_en.php
Vanja Goldberger vanja.goldberger@sabor.hr You can ask at the jasenovac monumet and
Slash, can you say why you keep changing the formatting of the other links? [4] SlimVirgin (talk) 03:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
After the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939) a great number of Spanish Republicans went to exile in different European countries. Many were politically active ranging from socialists, to communists, to anarchists. After the fall of France, many Spanish Republicans were sent to concentration camps, notably Mauthausen-Gusen (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauthausen-Gusen_concentration_camp). See also the special badge "S" (Republikanische Spanier, Republican Spanish) at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camp_badges
The number of Spaniards that died in concentration are of the order of 10,000. So, I'd like to make a mention of this in the "3.2 Non-Jewish victims" section of the main article.
David Wingeate Pike, Emeritus Distinguished Professor of History, The American University of Paris, published "Spaniards in the Holocaust: Mauthausen, the Horror on the Danube" (ISBN-10: 0415227801) in 2000 analyzing the topic.
The site In http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Mauthausen/KZMauthausen/History/SpanishRepublicans.html mentions "23,400 Spanish prisoners were registered at Mauthausen and its subcamps and that 16,310 of them died, leaving around 9,200 survivors." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.9.208.189 ( talk) 03:23, 8 May 2007 (UTC).
Think this wants altering to give an understanding to why some people say 6 and the other will say 12. It should address this issue rather than when the word was first uttered. 86.149.209.189 16:39, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
World at War shows that Gypsies were gassed, why do so many want to dismiss the pain of others, suffered often side by side at the hands of the Nazis. 86.149.209.189 23:16, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
i was wondering, did hitler kill off those who had brown hair and eyes (such as himself)? i was wantin to know if that's true. 168.103.247.124 19:35, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
I have always wondered what data the six million figure is based on. Now I just heard that the death toll for Auschwitz has officially been revised down to 1.5 million from 4 million. How does this affect the figure of 6 million total murdered in the Holocaust? Is it now 3.5 million? How is this figure arrived at? Amity150 05:42, 9 May 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Amity150 ( talk • contribs) 05:36, 9 May 2007 (UTC).
Thank you, I did read the article, but it gives me no idea how the figure of six million is arrived at. Could we say how the research arriving at this figure was conducted, what is was based on, etc.? There must have been some research conducted! Or is everyone just ballparking it based on whatever criteria seem appropriate to them? Amity150 13:49, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
It would help if verifiable sources could be found, period. Amity150 21:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
The two sides of the Holocaust debate are largely focused on the numbers issue; it is six million or is it (up to) twelve. Holocaust Deniers are rightfully seen as abhorrent self-deluding individuals who would do we would do well to shut up. However, would to deny that Gypsies gassed upon arrival, non-Jewish children, women, etc being killed on arrival and that they do not deserve to be included in some peoples definition of the Holocaust, is that not a bastardised form of 'Holocaust Denial' or selective denial. 86.149.209.189 12:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Part of denial is that the holocaust is a myth made out of whole cloth by the Jews. I can see the Jews disgust at other groups trying to glom onto their idea. Forget the gypsies, etc - the Jews know they are full of it - they ( the Jews) have the inside story on this - they know when someone is faking it. The Jehovahs Witnesses tried it up to 1974 ( they are still included by some who don't read much). In 1974 the JWs reduced their body count from 60,000 to 203 ( they got caught in a minor exaggeration). The gypsies et al are as documented in the holocaust as my dog. Keep this a 100% Jewish event - keeps it easier to argue, research, and shortens up the sentences. 159.105.80.141 12:17, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
So everyone killed upon arrival for being old, a communist, etc. sorry but its easier to leave you out. But a guy who was 1/4 Jewish, never been to a Synagogue, he is part of the Holocaust. To me that is selective denial. 86.149.209.189 12:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
JWs- 1974 AWAKE magazine - research by Ditlieb Felderer. Gypsies - do you have any documentation ( not just gypsies ). Documentation of a positive type seems hard to come by. Circular documentation ( a rumor documenting a rumor ) shouldn't count. Rarely are such well-known events held together only by dint of the hard verbal work of so many adherents. If the JWs had more energy and cash they might have fought on for the 60,000 number but they lacked that ole college spirit ( however, many proholocaust supporters continue to throw them in without their pushing for the favor - glomming without trying ( can't think of the term to use - probably just trying to beef up a story with examples of co-sufferers ( of course 203 isn't 0 so there is some facts behind it). Any numbers for gypsies and/or other none Jewish groups - 203 = JWs, 48 = homosexuals( per wiki )- gypsies = ? ( I doubt many, but they may have more staying power than JWs or homosexuals).
159.105.80.141
13:39, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Verifiable sources - if the AWAKE magazine isn't a verifiable source on JW then what is?
159.105.80.141
11:27, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
The map showing mass deportations of Jews contains a number of errors. The concentration camp in Bohemia called Theresienstadt is labelled Thrasenstate. I don't know who the cartographer is but there are numerous boundary errors too (e.g. Luxemburg is left outside the Reich and the Austrian parts of the Sudetenland have been detatched from Ostmark). ( Landau7 17:02, 9 May 2007 (UTC))
Someone changed gays to homosexuals in the header, saying that gay is offensive as a noun, but I see it as the other way round. Here are some articles by Peter Tatchell, well-known gay rights campaigner in the UK. [5] In them, he uses gay as a noun and adjective, and queer e.g. here. [6] He uses homosexual as an adjective too, though I couldn't find him using it as a noun. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:25, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Do we have a policy on the use of gay as a noun on wikipedia? Personally I'd regard it as least preferable, with gay people (or some variant with lesbian in) at the top, and homosexual in the middle. Certainly I'd resist using gay as a noun, and it seems that so do many others, e.g. the Guardian: "use as an adjective rather than a noun: a gay man, gay people, gay men and lesbians not "gays and lesbians"" and the BBC: "...gay" should be used only as an adjective. "Gay" as a noun - "gays gathered for a demonstration" - is not acceptable. If you wish to use homosexual, as adjective or noun, do so. It is also useful, as it applies to men and women". And then when we've resolved that we can move on to "the disabled" (cf. here: "disabled people not 'the disabled'"). -- Coroebus 17:30, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Is there something wrong with the word gay. In the eyes of many it is a sin, but I don't think it is an offensive word. Homosexual is a cover-all word, Gay would seem more appropriate to what a man is, rather than a womans state of mind, lesbian is obvious. 90.197.27.236 17:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Negro is commonly used here in New Zealand, and holds no racist meaning. Colored here is Generally used by whites to describe non-whites, and by anyone to describe a halfcast or mixed race person. -- Hayden5650 04:52, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
All of the images are on one side. Some of the images need to be moved to the left side of the article.-- Sefringle 06:00, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
This is especially true in the "Wannsee Conference and the final solution (1942–1945)" section, though I'm not going to edit this section, since the formatting seems kind of complex. I think this article might have a few too many images.-- Sefringle 06:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Can we remove Image:Liberté chérie2.jpg? This seems to be trivial to the purpose of this article.-- Sefringle 06:30, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, it seems like just a picture of a rock with some reinforcing mesh over it. It serves no real purpose. -- Hayden5650 06:32, 10 May 2007 (GMT)
I am also not sure what the purpose of Image:Heinrich Himmler, Richard Heydrich, Karl Wolf.JPG is. I think we should also remove one of the Auschwitz I images: either Image:Rail leading to Auschwitz II (Birkenau).jpg or Image:Arbeit-auschwitz04.jpg. I prefer removing the first one, since the second is a much nicer picture.-- Sefringle 06:41, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
As most people probably recognize Nazi as the more notable term, we should use Nazi to describe the German regime, rather than National Socialist regime.-- Sefringle 06:39, 10 May 2007 (UTC) hehehe hello
Load of bollocks. Nazi is not what they referred to themselves as. So unless we start calling blacks colored and negro and jews kikes, why should we treat the National Socialist German Workers' Party any different? Remember, NPOV in wikipedia. -- Hayden5650 08:40, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
NPOV please. The NSDAP never even broke a law. They entered power legally, and their 'victims' had ample oppurtunity to leave.-- Hayden5650 10:53, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I'll leave Nazi, so long as it is not used in a derogatory way, if you leave homosexuals as homosexuals. -- Hayden5650 12:45, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I note that this user has a history of disruptively editing articles to push a negative POV toward gays and lesbians. Just look at his contribs. FCYTravis 21:06, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I tried to improve & simplify it and make it more consistent with other WP articles. I suggest we use wiki rather than html syntax, and reserve {{ quotation}} for quotations rather than {{ see}}. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 11:20, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
In your list of Axis powers, you forget to mention that Iraq in 1941, after a pro-Nazi coup, joined the Axis, as did the Arab in Palestine, led by the pro-Nazi Mufti-- Herut 17:46, 10 May 2007 (UTC) Haj Amin El Husseini. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Herut ( talk -- Herut 17:47, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Berenbaum gives one translation for the Babi Yar notice. The Babi Yar article give another (anonymous) one. Given that Berenbaum is a reliable source, why would we choose the anonymous source over Berenbaum? Jayjg (talk) 01:48, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I have reverted the latest translation from deathcamps.org, as I am not sure about the relative merit of that translation vs. the one from Berenbaum we had before. I think we need to sort that out before replacing it. Also, the edit I reverted broke the reference to Berenbaum source lower down - if you make an edit, please make sure you don't cause collateral damage. Thanks, Crum375 00:18, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
If you must "resolve" differences, then the clearly more RS should stay in the interim. Berenbaum missed the German, invented an exclamation point, and all around seems to have provided a loose translation. Further, his status as a RS should be questioned. Jd2718 00:19, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi, you know the picture with the corpses and stuff, is that really nessecary? I find it really disturbing and i think a lot of other people probably do as well. maybe do you think we could put a warning or something? thanks. Jimmyswift 03:43, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Toughen up. No censoring on here mate. It's just a few dead bodies there are much worse things in the world to see than that. -- Hayden5650 10:54, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
It's not worth investigating. There's supposed to be no censorship on here. If we start this, before you know it articles will be being given R18 classifications and so on. -- Hayden5650 22:55, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
My articles have often been criticised of not having enough original sources. After reading through this article I have yet to see one piece of evidence that isn't second-hand from a holocaust historian. Where are the original sources? Is there even the name of one witness provided in this article? Saying something is one thing, it actually being correct is another. If a historian is incorrect and then another historian quotes him, this does not make the original claim any more correct! Individual claims need individual references! -- Delos 03:44, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I am puzzled that [Jayjg] deleted the paras that I inserted yesterday with the comment: (the article is already quite long; these sections are very short, and all based on one article. They should probably be incorporated in another way). I would agree that the sections are quite short, but I believe informative. Perhaps two of the sections, condemnation by birth and totality could be combined. I realize that the article long which is one of the reasons that I inserted small sections. Clearly the points belong in the Distinctive features section, add important new distinctions. It is not based at all on one article, the reference is to a well-known book which includes many references. I added the speech so that someone who does not have access to the book could read a summary of the points. I do not believe that these are adequate grounds for deleting the paras which were painfully posted using a slow connection as I am in the depths of France at the moment. Joel Mc 07:15, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Could people please stop pissing around moving the photos you're really screwing up the article. They all belong on the right hand side. -- Hayden5650 10:56, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I was annoyed when i wrote that comment. I realise they should be nicely for aesthetics etc, and already where some on the left hand side. However, someone moved them lastnight, apparently for the sake of moving them and it really screwed with the paragraphs and made huge gaps. -- Hayden5650 23:10, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Sefringle, what is your problem exactly? You've been told that the article is undergoing a rewrite. This isn't something that can happen overnight. We're adding some text, removing other text, adding images, adding sources. What exactly is the point of adding huge amounts of citation needed tags, and tagging the entire article, even though it already has 127 separate footnotes? You're asking for a source for "In all Nazi camps there were very high death rates as a result of starvation, disease and exhaustion, but only the extermination camps were designed specifically for mass killing," when the entire section on the Wannsee Conference explains that those camps were set up for the purpose of mass murder, and it explains why.
It's not a helpful contribution. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:16, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
the beginning of the section now reads, in part "During 1942, in addition to Auschwitz, five other camps were designated as extermination camps (Vernichtungslager) for the carrying out of the Reinhard plan." My understanding is that only 4, Auschwitz + the 3 new ones, were Aktion Reinhard camps. Can the "designated as extermination camps" be sourced or, if it cannot be, can it be reworded? Jd2718 12:04, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
The old article was showing quite well where there is controversy on aspects of the Holocaust, heck, it was even showing the mixed views within German officials. The current article is very streamlined - like copied from the pages of a middle school textbook. Simplification is okay for teaching an introductory lesson but a historic record should convey the complexity as it occurred in reality - where there is no single answer on the motivations and where actions had various side effects allowing the horror not to unfold linearly. An encyclopedia is a good point of reference to all those further reading parts - please don't make them just footnotes or even subject to the "search" button. Have a heart and put some complexity back in, thanks, Guidod 22:41, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Not even a word about the Righteous among the nations (the footnote link could not be fair solution for any uninformed reader!). Not even a word about any salvation of any Jewish community. The word "salvation" even doesn't exist in the present article. Speculative information about Bulgarian Jews (in the proper Bulgarian territory there were only 48,000 Jews). The result: one-sided, biased and tendentious article. - Jackanapes 13:24, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Because there were rescued Jewish communities. - Jackanapes 13:36, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
P. s. And, of course, there were many non-Jewish persons and non-Jewish communities, who struggled against the Holocaust. Some of them - successfully. There is section "Jewish resistance", but where is the section "Non-Jewish resistance"? Isn't this a symptom of one-sidedness? - Jackanapes 13:41, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't know what Jacknapes is referring to exactly but I will tell you one thing: the highest death rates in Europe were in the Bulgarian occupied areas of Yugoslavia and Greece. This version is bad enough with this ommssion, looking at the old version it implies Jews there were arrested by German authorites. That is false. The Bulgarian authorities, backed by Bulgarian army and Bulgarian gendarmes and Bulgarian nationalists, arrested almost every single Jew in those places on Passover of 1943. They were transported by Bulgarian transport from Yugoslavia and Greece, through Bulgaria, and handed off to to German authorites there to be taken to Treblinka. I know as all my grandparents were among those taken by the Bulgarians from their town in Greece.
That tiny handful that escaped did so with the assistance of the Greeks, the Greek resistance and Greek priests-- under penalty of death -- where they went to Palestine, Turkey, or incredibly a place where they had a better chance of survival -- the German occupied zone of Greece!
The general implications of survival rates are a perversion. some of the countries where Jewish death rates are the highest are ALSO the same places where the non Jewish population suffered the highest death rates at the hand of the Axis because of general resistance to occupation as well as resistance to the deportation of their Jewish countrymen. Greece and Yugoslavia are not put inot proper context when balanced against Bulgaria -- which occupied parts of those countries and which as part of ethnic cleansing policy implimented the Holocaust against the Jews in those occupied territories.
As someone whose family was deported by the Bulgarians I would ask why doesn't the Box list in this article which shows "responsible parties" include Bulgaria? IsaacBR 17:35, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I am prevented from editing this page but whoever wrote: "Bulgaria and Finland introduced no anti-Jewish measures at all, and Hungary did so only after the country was occupied by Germany in 1944." has got to be kidding. IsaacBR 17:38, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Could a link be placed somewhere in the article to associate it with Holocaust denial? Discgolfrules 21:42, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I urge editors interested in the Holocaust to take care of the stub Dzyatlava massacre, which is currently linkless. -- Ghirla -трёп- 09:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I had added a subtitle to the Roma section, thus changing the title to "Roma (Gypsies)". North Americans refer to Roma very frequently as Gypsies, and the term is not generally derogatory when used as such. I did kindly notice that an individual who appears to be a British contributor removed the subtitle. I respect his copious, quality edits, but I do kindly ask him and the Wikipedia community to reconsider the subtitle removal; if you say "Roma" to a NoAm (in the sense of referring to this people), he/she likely won't know what you are talking about without further explanation/references. Yet, I realize that Roma is the "educated" term for this people. Further debate and discussion welcomed (I did not revert the aforementioned revert, btw). — Catdude 05:38, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
In New Zealand, Gypsies are called Gypsies and is not derogatory. Roma is unheard of -- Hayden5650 07:02, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I have lived in both Europe and North America I would agree that the term gypsy is not generally considered derogatory. However, I have often heard Roma feelings that it is. Thus the Wikipedia entry for gypsy states "The term is sometimes considered to be derogatory." If an internal link were made, then it would be clearer. Joel Mc 07:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Please forgive me for pointing it out, but Jehovah's Witnesses wore a purple triangle in the camps. This can be easily verified.
Neutral reader, skimming the article for the first time in some time. In the following paragraph under "Definition", I am curious/desiring clarification (albeit not necessarily saying the article needs it):
The word "holocaust" is also used in a wider sense to describe other actions of the Nazi regime. These include the killing of around half a million Roma and Sinti, the deaths of several million Soviet prisoners of war, the killing of the intelligentsia, slave laborers, gays, Jehovah's Witnesses, the disabled, and political opponents.
Just wondering who the 'intelligentsia' were in this context and why they were killed. (I do know the definition of the word.) I guess I've never run across this one before, or it's just not clicking with anything I've read previously. Possible overlap with 'political opponents'? Again, just my own curiousity. -- Thessaly 02:29, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
The numbers for gays and Jehovahs Witnesses seem to be 48 and 203 deaths - not counting disease ( 600-800 for JWs, ? for gays). These numbers are considerable revisions from original estimates. Has any real research been done on the other groups?
159.105.80.141
13:11, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
This article is currently 120 kilobytes long, so perhaps it's time to think about trimming or splitting. see: Article length#A rule of thumb I added the {toolong} tag but was reverted without comment. What does everyone think? Cheers — dv82matt 06:23, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
The main thing about Croats killing Serbs, it was not even part of Holocaust, but of the then-even-more savage Balkan ethnic conflict. Sure, they killed the Jews too - but so did the German-supported Serbs (in turn, the communists exterminated Axis and former Axis civilians later). Hitler did not want Serbs exterminated, or even just Serbs in Croatia, more then he wanted the French.
This is like if the Polish victims of the Polish-Ukrainian ethnic conflict (some Ukrainian formations were German-supported or even run, including SS) were the victims of Holocaust - no one does this. I believe the Serbs should be excluded, as they were not the victims of the Nazi racial policy. But as for now: Discuss. -- HanzoHattori 17:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Jackanapes, your new section mixes up rescuers with resistance, going back and forth without a connecting narrative, and repeating material that's in other sections. The article is too long to get into rescuers and collaborators, which is why both were moved to other pages. It's best to leave this page for the core Holocaust issues. The longest FA is 121 kilobytes, and we're already at 120 (not that I'm saying this is ready for FA status, and I'll be surprised if it ever gets there, but it's good to use those standards as a guide). SlimVirgin (talk) 23:32, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Then shorten some other sections and develope that section in a better way! - Jackanapes 13:39, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
P. s. By the way, there are several section, which repeat several main articles:
Etymology and use of the term Main article: Names of the Holocaust
Roma Main article: Porajmos
Death squads (1941–1943) Main article: Einsatzgruppen
Death marches (1944–1945) Main article: Death marches (Holocaust)
Why don't you erase them as well with purpose to shorten the article if its length is so worring? - Jackanapes 13:57, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I submitted a post earlier this evening correcting the story of the medical experiment performed on the twins sewn back-to-back. The ending of the account in the article is incorrect. Eyewitness testimony from the War Crimes Trials indicates that the twins died of gargarene and were not euthanized with morphine. Someone deleted my scholarly post, calling it "vandalism" simply because I did not create an account. I posted my email address in the event the article is updated so I can provide a bibilographical reference for my source materials. However, instead of actually READING my post, this other user simply deleted it because I prefer to have the system automatically submit my IP address instead of using my account name. This is my right and I find this other person's actions both inappropriate and a deliberate hindrance to correcting serious errors in the article. Email: metalmuse@juno.com DO NOT DELETE THIS POST. The article as stated is incorrect. If you're the author, then grow up and admit you made a mistake instead of trying to delete submissions requesting correction. The Holocaust is too important a topic to have historical errors propagated on a popular site like Wikipedia.
Er... I don't want to accuse anyone of Holocaust denial here, but 3 million Catholics died in the Holocaust, last I checked. I don't see any mention of this at all on this page, though I could swear it was here six months ago. -- Kendrick7 talk 04:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Celtic Emperor 18:26, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Celtic Emperor 21:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I've gone back and looked through the article history. The mention seems to have gone from 3,000,000 Catholics, to 3m Polish Catholics, to 3 million Polish Christian/Catholics, to Christian Poles, to non-Jewish Poles (without a number, but, hey, at least two). But, there were never good inline citations for any of this going back. Presumably, the fact is somewhere in one of the Holocaust (resources). -- Kendrick7 talk 03:58, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Was Herr. Adolf Hitler, Führer des Große Deutsches Reich, really a Catholic? really? Where's the proof? I always assumed him to be protestant. -- Hayden5650 10:02, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I am Protestant by the way -- Hayden5650 10:02, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't it point directly to Nazi concentration camps rather than the generic concentration camp article?