![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
This discussion page was getting to be unreadable and unorganised and, so, I have reformatted the various discussions using standard Wikipedia formatting. I would please ask that everyone sign their posts (place four tildes '~' at the end of your post). If you are going to include multiple paragraphs, please sign each and every paragraph. Try to use "*" instead of ":" for easy formatting. When answering a particular user, please begin the paragraph/post with their name(s) and increment the "*" at the beginning of your post (you might also wish to place their name(s) in bold). Please try to place quotes in boxes (blockquote). Please use bold text sparingly (use italics instead). It is not necessary to begin a post with "By so-and-so"; simply sign your post at the end of the paragraph/post. Try not to break up the flow of discussion-texts by placing your post in-between "conversations"; place it after the "conversation" with an incremented "*" at the beginning. We will have to start archiving more often as we are three times over the suggested kilobyte limit. Thank you! Thorwald 03:41, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Okay. Let’s see if we can put this to rest. The following authors, 68.55.238.141, 168.143.113.5, and Audiofree have erased large blocks of text and have replaced them with pro-COG material. Thus, for the remainder of this post, I will refer to them as the "pro-COG" editors or authors. Thorwald
The editors who were here prior to the pro-COG editors have written what I believe to be fairly NPOV material [1]. This was discussed in previous posts, so I will not elaborate on it any further. Thorwald
The purpose of this post is to consider each change and/or deletion made by these pro-COG editors against the body of sources (pre-COG insertions) listed as "References" and "External links" at the bottom of the main article. I will refer to these as "sources" for the remainder of this post. Thorwald
The pro-COG editors continue to quote J. Gordon Melton, Ph.D. It is interesting to note that the FCF has listed him in their official expenses statement as having received around $10,000 to study their group. That is, the group sponsored this man to study their group and to then write books or essays on them. The evidence of this is easily obtained from the FCF web site ( [2]-page 38). Thus, I would suggest that any quotations from him used in this article include a disclaimer. It is difficult to view him as an independent academic writing with a NPOV when he is sponsored by the very group he is investigating. Dr. Melton is also listed as an official "expert" of the COG/TF on the group's official Web Page [3]. For more information on Dr. Melton, please visit [4]. Thorwald
Quote by Dr. Melton: I agree with ThePedanticPrick on removing the quote by Melton on FFing. This quote completely contradicts all other sources on this practice (including actual writings by Berg; see FFing section). It is obvious from reading this quote that Melton was painfully trying to make this practice seem as routine and innocent as possible (and I thought he did a fairly poor job at it). Finally, Melton's intentions with this quote are clear when you understand that he was paid by The Family International to write the article from which this quote was taken. Thorwald 22:54, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The pro-COG editors have referred to various "scholars" who have explained some of the group’s teachings and practices. These "scholars" describe the group’s Charter as a "very innovative and unique document". I am interested who these scholars are and if any of them are also sponsored by the group? What about this document did they find "unique" or "innovative"? It is my understanding, from reading through the sources, that this document is something any organization should expect to produce within a few years of its existence. The fact that it took 27 years for them to produce it and that it contains clauses stating that the groups leadership could "revoke any of the rights at any time ... and more responsibilities could be added" seems anything but "innovative" to me. Thorwald
The pro-COG editors have tried to remove any material suggesting the group’s controversial writings about adult/minor sex. Again, all material in this article covering pedophilia within this group (or by David Berg) was taken from sources. Some of these sources include the groups own writings (i.e. "The Story of Davidito" or "My Little Fish") and were referred to by The Rt. Hon. Lord Justice Ward in his 1995 ruling ( [5] under the sections of "Sharing" and "The Story of Davidito", etc.). The fact that these books were ordered destroyed by their leadership and are no longer in circulation does not erase their history and association with this group and, thus, I suggest their inclusion within this article. Thorwald
The extract from Summit Jewels seems to violate the copyright rules as listed below so I deleted it.--
Cognomen 23:32, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I have removed reference to pedophilia. I will allow that allegations of child abuse were laid against the Family in each of the countries listed. However, in looking over the documents I do not see one instance of the term pedophilia being used. If the allegations of pedophilia cannot be substantiated by documents then I don't see how this can stay in as it seems it is based on hearsay. Also, the final documents available in each case show that evidence of abuse was not found. So I have reworded this part to reflect the facts. -- Cognomen2 17:37, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
For the above reasons, I believe the article should be reverted back to its original material. If the pro-COG editors wish to include material, I would suggest that they back up their claims with sources and use the NPOV guidelines. I call upon the other editors of this article to back me up on these points. Thank you! Thorwald 06:10, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The user 216.70.243.114 continues to remove any information on the FCF in the main article and in this discussion/talk page. This user has deleted sections of posts in this page (about FCF) that were not his or her posts. I find this practice unethical and it should be, if is isn't already, grounds for banning the user. Until this user discusses his or her deletions and gives credible reasons for such actions, I will continue to revert to the original versions. Thorwald 21:56, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
It is interesting to note that a 'whois' on this user's IP address (216.70.243.114) yields the following (note: bold added by me). Thorwald 04:45, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC):
216.70.224.0 - 216.70.255.255
Family Care Foundation FAMILY-CARE-FOUNDATION (NET-216-70-243-112-1)
216.70.243.112 - 216.70.243.127
CustName: Family Care Foundation
Address: 1373 Marron Valley Rd
City: Dulzura
StateProv: CA
PostalCode: 91917
Country: US
RegDate: 2003-08-19
Updated: 2003-08-19
I would like to suggest the addition of a section covering the topic of the Mo Letters (i.e. Berg's dreams and visions, counsel, prophecies, lectures, etc.) as well as how they were viewed by The Family's members to be God's Word for today and, in some cases, to hold precedence over Biblical scripture. A section like this has the potential to become far larger than necessary, so I think it would be wise to determine what the focus of this proposed section should be and/or if it should be expounded on further in a separate article. WalkerJ 07:10, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps it might be appropriate to list, or at least give a number of young people born in the cult who have taken their lives. We might also consider mentioning characteristics common to many young people who have left, such as depression, drug and alcohol abuse, risky behaviors, working in the sex industry, etc., while of course emphasizing that not ALL former members of the second generation have these problems. What does everyone think? ThePedanticPrick 21:25, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Pray, Obey and Prepare!
Introduction to the 2002 Study Month By Maria and Peter CM 3420 9/02
6. (Mama:) The battle is certainly becoming more fierce, both in the spiritual realm with the Enemy's attacks intensifying, and with our detractors and apostates becoming more determined to cause as much trouble for the Family as possible and to weaken your faith through their half-truths, exaggerations, lies, and false accusations.
11. In addition to helping us to be the witnesses and fruitful missionaries we need to be, being strong in our foundation of faith is crucial when we experience persecution and hear the accusations of apostates.
14. If you and those in your Home have made commitments to not read the accusations of our detractors and apostates, and to not go on the ex-member Web sites, Peter and I commend you. That's the best thing to do...But even if you are steering completely clear of the verbal attacks of our apostates, you still need to be prepared for eventual persecution 39. ... It's a dilemma to know how to pray the most effective prayers in situations when you're having to pray against people who were once Family members and who are now detractors or apostates who are out to do us serious damage.
87. To begin with, let's review what the Lord predicted in the CvsC series when He said: “There will be yet more apostates, more detractors with outlandish stories to test and try the hearts of the children of David. Warn the Family, let them know that this is what's happening and why. Those who receive this will be forewarned and will recognize the attacks of the Enemy when they come their way. Those who have been faithful to study and believe and come to Me and receive My seeds will stand” (ML #3361:61-62, GN 957). 88. Then in “More on the Keys” the Lord said: “There will be more false accusers and their words will test the faith of some” (ML #3351:86, GN 946). So we shouldn't be surprised that we are now seeing a new round of attacks from apostates, and that there are new voices being raised against the Family. The Lord warned us that this would come.
116. Though these apostates think this is their own doing and that they are causing major problems and disruption in your lives and work, they stand before Me as those who are blind with pride and are simply pawns in My hands...
130. It has recently been brought to our attention by some of our faithful media folks that the postings on various ex-member sites are becoming increasingly aggressive and belligerent. There are a number of detractors who are trying to rally those who have left--even those who have been friendly for years--to unite to fight the Family. They're talking about trying to hinder our work through such things as class action lawsuits, requests for law enforcement investigations, personal lawsuits against individuals, criminal complaints, use of the media, production of their stories through documentaries, books, and writings, etc. 163. (Mama:) The Lord knows we need this information to combat our enemies' attempts to destroy the Family. We need to pray both against the Enemy using our detractors and apostates, as well as misguided officials, sensationalistic reporters, deluded lawyers or publishers, and against the specific evil spirits, the Vandari, that inspire these people's ungodly actions and stories. Use the keys and the key promises to pray against our enemies, and against these vile, disgusting vandals that live in the filthy, putrid sewers of the depths of the netherworld!
Manicmoe 22:07, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
157. And, while we must fight back against the verbal attacks of a few of our former members, those that we consider apostates and who have openly declared that they want to destroy the Family and what we stand for, the vast majority of former members do not fall into that category, as I mentioned in "The Next Focus in the Battle." The majority of those who have left the Family have the same respect for your choice to remain as you do for their choice to leave. -- Peter Amsterdam, January 22 2005.
(Maria:) There's a huge range of attitudes and relationships among our children and loved ones who have left. Some are bitter, angry, and vindictive. Others are unhappy and struggling. Others are indifferent toward the Family, or fairly content in their new lifestyle. Others remain very hungry for the Word, counsel, love and fellowship.
I don't like to dwell on the negative, but this GN is going to focus mainly on your relationship with those who have bitterness or grudges against you or against the Family, or who even go further than that and are actively working against us. But before we get into that, let me say that there are many former members who don't fall into that category at all. In fact, in comparison to the many thousands of former members, just a very small but very vocal minority fall into that category. We have many former members who still appreciate our love and communication, and do their best to stay positive and to dwell on the things we have in common. We are proud of them, and urge you to help and encourage and support and feed them spiritually in whatever ways the Lord shows you are appropriate in your situation. -- Maria (Karen Zerby), ML #3459:6–9, GN 1044, published May 2003.
In October 1996, Dust and Simon (both members of the North American Continental leadership) and I met for two days in Jacksonville, Florida, with "Safe Haven" members Sharon and Pope Wilson (known in the Family as Jaakan Giant), George and Woodie Terrel, John and Linda Hardy (known in the Family as Nekoda and Bathshua) and Abraham Brosius. The purpose of this meeting was for all of us to gain a better understanding of one another, to explore ways to overcome past hurts and to find ways to prevent future problems and misunderstandings between current and former members, in an effort to heal the rift and establish a relationship of love and acceptance of each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. During this meeting there was a healthy and spirited exchange of ideas, grievances, explanations and the like. All parties went away with a better understanding of the other's point of view, which seemed to draw us all closer together, having seen and heard each other's hurts, opinions and outlook.…
We, the Family's leadership, have acknowledged that some former members were treated unfairly, harshly, and in an unloving manner, and we have officially apologized for this in a number of publications over the last few years. It is also understood that some former members have spoken out in the media against the Family, while others have actively campaigned for governmental action against the Family, all of which has resulted in Family members being harassed, Homes being raided and, in some cases, children being forcibly taken away from their parents at gunpoint. There has been hurt on both sides. However, it's important to understand that not every Family member was responsible for or caused the hurt experienced by those who left the Family, just like not every former member was responsible for the trauma suffered by Family members and their children at the hands of the media and government authorities. It would therefore be best to avoid blaming either the Family as a whole, or former members in general, for the hurt and pain experienced on either side. As stated earlier, we clearly understand that some former members have had negative and hurtful experiences in the Family. We have apologized in written publications a number of times over the last years. However, you personally may not have received a copy of these publications. The following is an excerpt from one of those publications, written by Maria in September 1995: "Likewise, if any of you ex-members who may be reading this have had negative sexual experiences while with us, or you were treated unlovingly or harshly, either before or after you left the Family, we are sorry. Our goal is to be the Lord's Family of Love, so if you suffered unloving treatment from any Family member, we ask you to please forgive us. The Lord has been teaching us all a lot about how important it is that we are loving and kind with one another. As a Family, we are asking Him to help us to love Him and others more, for without love we have nothing! So if we failed you in not being loving enough, please forgive us." (End of excerpt by Maria.) From "An Open Letter to All Current and Former Family Members", by Peter , published February 1996.
In 1994, The Family initiated a concerted reconciliation process to attempt to resolve differences with any and all former members who held grievances either from their time in The Family or from the lack of communication with Family members after they departed. In 1994 and 1995, in open letters to former members, Family leadership officially addressed concerns in regard to any questionable past actions of individuals regarding discipline, education, or sexual misconduct that any may have undergone from 1978 to 1985 before clear guidelines were articulated. These apologies were published and have been reiterated in official Family publications over the years. The Family's Charter (first published in 1995) also advises parents to assume responsibility for assisting their children through what can be a difficult transition from a close, nurturing, faith-based support system to an independent secular lifestyle. --Statement by Claire Borowik for The Family International, January 2005.
I will restate the position I put in the edits: A neutral analysis of the Second Generation of the Family should include commentary on those who remain in the movement (taking into account, for examples, the hundreds of opinions written by Second Generation Members posted at www.myconclusion.com); those who leave for various reasons, but either do not or do not vocalise public criticisms; and those who have a critical approach. Don't all three groups deserve space in the analysis, if it is going to be a factual portrayal of the second generation?--
Details 14:51, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)
It appears the recent paragraph or paragraphs about Richard Rodriguez and his murder/suicide are becoming more of a news column (or story) than an excerpt from an encyclopedic article. I agree that Mr. Rodriguez (and Angela Smith) are intricately tied to the history of this group and that he was the son and "heir" of Karen Zerby and David Berg. This news or information is certainly related to this group. However, is there a way to include him in this article in a more general and historical way without becoming a news article? These are just thoughts. What does everyone else think? Thorwald 22:07, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Thorwald why do you keep del these names? I think they are relevant, esp Philip Sherwood/James Penn. He has written things linked from this page, why can't his name stay? Audiofree
This material is from the article List of purported cults, which we are paring down to a pure list. Editors here can best evaluate its statements and decide how to integrate it into this article. Thanks, - Willmcw 21:08, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
Andries: Why do you find the interwiki language material on NRMs "erroneous" with respect to the Children of God? I happen to speak German (fluently) and the following is certainly related (and one doesn't need to understand German to understand this): Kinder Gottes (oder "Children of God"/"The Family"),... (from one of the links you removed). — Thorwald 03:48, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Whether or not having a sexual relationship with one's deity is mainstream or not is immaterial to the purpose of this article. Mainstream means different things to different people; let's please just state the facts, not opinions. I think long descriptions of historical, er, Jesus-loving is un-called-for. A brief description of it as the Family practices it, along with some links to pages which provide the historical context is fine. Otherwise, this article becomes conflated and unreadable. ThePedanticPrick 18:57, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
My guru told me more or less to do the same. Andries 19:57, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
One of the more unusual teachings Zerby has propagated, her encouragement to followers to engage in a spiritual sexual relationship with Jesus stands out as the most unusual. Male members of the group are encouraged to visualize themselves as women "in the spirit" during masturbation or intercourse in order to accommodate this practice.
Zerby's encouragement to followers to engage in a spiritual sexual relationship with Jesus stands out as an extension of medieval mystical teaching, echoing the intimate language of the Biblical Song of Solomon. Female and male members of the group are encouraged to visualize themselves as the wife of Christ "in the spirit" during masturbation or intercourse in order to accommodate this practice. This doctrine is explained in the Family publications Loving Jesus Part 1 and Loving Jesus Part 2, see below for links to these.
Love Words to Jesus:
For those of you who may have a hard time thinking of love words to say to the Lord, we're including the following list of examples. Besides saying these types of words to Jesus, you might even want to say some of these things to your mate or loved one when making love together.
Less Erotic:
* I want You, need You, desire You, yearn for You ...
* I want You to kiss me, caress me, touch me ...
* I love Your kisses, caresses, touches, Words of love, seeds ...
* Come! I'm here for You.
* Oh please, I want You!
* I want Your seeds.
* My darling. My sweetheart. My precious Love. My Bridegroom.
* Come and lie in the bed of love with me.
* I want to be in love with You, Jesus.
* Come to Me, Jesus! Be here with me and love me. Let's hold each other and say words of love to each other.
* Come to my bed, come to my arms, come to my kisses, to my lips!
* Come into me, I want to be one with You.
* Kiss me, caress me, love me, fill me completely.
* I want to lie in Your arms.
* Hold me, I love You. Come fill me.
* I want to woo You, Jesus, and to be wooed by You.
* I want You inside of me! Give me Your seeds.
* I want to make You happy by kissing You, and by loving You in whatever way You wish.
* Your wonderful touches and kisses make me happy.
* Please satisfy me.
* I want Your kisses.
* I kiss You.
* Touch me, love me. I want to be one with You.
* I'm open for You.
* Fill me.
* I surrender to You, Jesus. I'm all Yours. Take hold of me.
* I need You, Jesus. I want You, Jesus. Hold me.
* You excite me, Jesus, and I want to feel Your love. I want to excite You, too!
* Jesus, You're the Lover of all lovers.
* Teach me how to love You.
* I love You so much, my dear Darling, my wonderful Sweetheart and marvelous Lover, my faithful Husband!
* I'm Yours and I'm one with You, Jesus.
* I'm in love with You as My Lover, My Husband and My Bridegroom!
* I'm all Yours, and I give You everything.
* You make me feel so good.
More Erotic:
* I'm all naked for You, Jesus, and desperate for Your love! Come to me.
* I want to enjoy You, Jesus, to look at You, to taste You, to feel You, to fuck You!
* I've got to have You in my arms. I've got to feel Your naked body pressed to mine.
* I'm getting so hot for You! I've got to have Your lips on mine!
* You turn me on!
* Your touch is so tender, it makes me feel so loved, so secure, so warm, so wanted.
* You're beautiful, Jesus, and so sexy--sexier than I ever dreamed--so handsome, so naked and so hard!
* You draw me near, and my heart skips a beat. I tremble under Your touch.
* Your touch melts me. It moves me, stimulates me, sends me.
* Touch me through the hands that You made. Possess me!
* I'm really getting horny for You, Jesus.
* I want to feel all Your love and all Your passion!
* Jesus, show me what I can do to You to make You feel good.
* I want to excite You and give You pleasure and satisfy You, as You excite and please and satisfy me.
* Jesus, I'll do anything for You. I'll do anything to give You pleasure. Let me satisfy You. Teach me what You like best.
* I want to show You how hot and horny and passionate I am for You!
* I want to enjoy You. I take pleasure in caressing You, kissing You, fondling You.
* I want to know You completely--every inch of You.
* I want to kiss You everywhere.
* I want to suck Your penis. I want to suck Your seeds!
* I'm wild about You! I'm crazy about Your penis!
* My pussy is excited for You, Jesus!
* I'm juicy for You.
* I'm prepared, Jesus. I'm wet. I'm wanting You.
* I'm so excited and I'm so horny for You, Jesus!
* I want to feel the ecstasies of Your love!
* You've got to fuck me now!
* Yes, yes, I want more! I want more than words. I want more than spiritual communications! I want to feel it, I want to know it, in my heart and in my body and in my spirit.
* I can't wait any longer!--I'm overcome with desire for You, for Your penis, for Your seeds.
* I can't wait. I've got to have You, Jesus! Your love excites me! I've got to have You inside me!
* I crave You, Jesus. I'm hot for You! My legs are spread to receive Your penis! Enter into me! Give me Your seeds.
* I'm desperate for Your big, hard penis! I crave it, because I want Your seeds!
* I need Your penis! I need to feel You explode inside me, giving me Your seeds!
* I receive Your love, Lord, with open arms and open legs and a receptive heart.
* I'm Yours. I give myself to You in complete surrender, for Your pleasure. Do whatever You want with me.
* Come into me, Jesus. Fuck me. Make me go, Jesus!
* Fuck me! Take me!
* Hurry, Jesus! I need You now.
* Fuck me long and hard and deep. I want to feel You in the very heart of me. Longer, harder, deeper!
* I can't get enough of You. I have to have all of You!
* Come, Jesus! Oh please, come!
* I can't do without Your seeds. Please give them to me!
* Yes, yes! Fuck me, fuck me! Don't stop! Don't stop! I want You! I need You! Give me Your seeds!
* Fill me with Your seeds. Flood me with Your seeds. Explode in me!
* Give me more, more, more. Don't stop until I have every drop of Your love, every one of Your seeds.
* It feels so good to have You inside me, Jesus! I've never known such pleasure, such ecstasy.
* Jesus, I'm lost in Your love. With every thrust of Your penis You take me higher and higher.
* Don't stop! Don't ever stop fucking me! Let this thrill, this ecstasy, go on and on and on and on forever!
* Your penis drives me wild. I'm out of control, but don't stop!
* I went for You.
* Oh my Darling, my Darling, how I love to fuck You! How I love to be fucked by You!
* I've never known such joy and satisfaction as this!
* Jesus, You're the best! No other love can compare.
* Thank You for wanting me, for desiring me, for exciting me. Thank You for wanting to fuck me and become one with me and give me Your seeds.
* Thank You for giving Yourself to me so freely, so completely. Thank You for letting me explore Your naked body in all its majesty--to hold You, to kiss You, to suck You, to fuck You.
* You're so wonderful! Source: Cool Tips for Hot Sex! http://www.exfamily.org/pubs/ml/b2/b_cooltp_sc.shtml
Manicmoe 12:37, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If these dudes want to believe in bridal theology, who is to say that is wrong. From my study of the group, the Loving Jesus revelation is a personal matter between the person and Jesus. So what they want to personally believe and pratice is a freedom given to them by the Constitution of the USA, no? I don't think they are forcing it on anyone. I would suppose most people have their belief system which they feel is their right and no one elses can tell them how to believe. There are some pretty weird belief systems in America, or which the COGs is just one of them, so what? That is what made America so great and so free. —Sweetheat
"It is possible this was prompted in part by clinical blindness that she developed during the 1990s." I removed this sentence because it simply is not the case. All you have to do is look at Karen's pictures on various internet sites to see that she is anything but legally blind. She sees as well as anyone from the information I have received from those that live with her. On top of that this is quite a presumption on someone's part as to why channeling came about in the group I think. I suppose we want to keep this as factual as we can and not put in our suppositions and theories, since that has no relevance to and encyclopedia entry on a group. —Sweetheat
Does the COG really consider itself to be a fundamentalist Christian denomination? Does it adhere to the "five pillars":
The COG does not strike me as a conventional fundamentalist group. - Willmcw 07:14, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
The original text seemed unbalanced, with many paragraphs on the sexuality and abuse issues, and very little on what other developments occured in the the movement at this time. I have tried to redress this and added more general information. I have included citations which may be too long in the final text, but I wanted you to see the sources for what I have changed. (By the way, I'm Details2 who was earlier Details - I was away and forgot my password. -- Details2 30 June 2005 17:54 (UTC)
I deleted this small section. I don't see the point in having it there. The movement has had a history of almost 40 years and there are undoubtedly scores of people who could be listed as "former leaders". The movement's variable structure has meant that it is likely that almost every current member over the age of 30, if not younger, has held a leadership position at some point in time, whether on a local, area, national, regional or continental level. Listing about a half dozen alleged "former leaders" doesn't convey any useful information that I can see. -- Details2 30 June 2005 18:12 (UTC)
I have removed the name of the person who allegedly committed the legal offense of fraud. I checked out the link that was there originally, and did not see any verification about this incident, and I do not think we should published unsubstantiated criminal accusations against a named individual unless there is some verifiable corroboration (legal document). -- Details2 5 July 2005 15:40 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
This discussion page was getting to be unreadable and unorganised and, so, I have reformatted the various discussions using standard Wikipedia formatting. I would please ask that everyone sign their posts (place four tildes '~' at the end of your post). If you are going to include multiple paragraphs, please sign each and every paragraph. Try to use "*" instead of ":" for easy formatting. When answering a particular user, please begin the paragraph/post with their name(s) and increment the "*" at the beginning of your post (you might also wish to place their name(s) in bold). Please try to place quotes in boxes (blockquote). Please use bold text sparingly (use italics instead). It is not necessary to begin a post with "By so-and-so"; simply sign your post at the end of the paragraph/post. Try not to break up the flow of discussion-texts by placing your post in-between "conversations"; place it after the "conversation" with an incremented "*" at the beginning. We will have to start archiving more often as we are three times over the suggested kilobyte limit. Thank you! Thorwald 03:41, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Okay. Let’s see if we can put this to rest. The following authors, 68.55.238.141, 168.143.113.5, and Audiofree have erased large blocks of text and have replaced them with pro-COG material. Thus, for the remainder of this post, I will refer to them as the "pro-COG" editors or authors. Thorwald
The editors who were here prior to the pro-COG editors have written what I believe to be fairly NPOV material [1]. This was discussed in previous posts, so I will not elaborate on it any further. Thorwald
The purpose of this post is to consider each change and/or deletion made by these pro-COG editors against the body of sources (pre-COG insertions) listed as "References" and "External links" at the bottom of the main article. I will refer to these as "sources" for the remainder of this post. Thorwald
The pro-COG editors continue to quote J. Gordon Melton, Ph.D. It is interesting to note that the FCF has listed him in their official expenses statement as having received around $10,000 to study their group. That is, the group sponsored this man to study their group and to then write books or essays on them. The evidence of this is easily obtained from the FCF web site ( [2]-page 38). Thus, I would suggest that any quotations from him used in this article include a disclaimer. It is difficult to view him as an independent academic writing with a NPOV when he is sponsored by the very group he is investigating. Dr. Melton is also listed as an official "expert" of the COG/TF on the group's official Web Page [3]. For more information on Dr. Melton, please visit [4]. Thorwald
Quote by Dr. Melton: I agree with ThePedanticPrick on removing the quote by Melton on FFing. This quote completely contradicts all other sources on this practice (including actual writings by Berg; see FFing section). It is obvious from reading this quote that Melton was painfully trying to make this practice seem as routine and innocent as possible (and I thought he did a fairly poor job at it). Finally, Melton's intentions with this quote are clear when you understand that he was paid by The Family International to write the article from which this quote was taken. Thorwald 22:54, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The pro-COG editors have referred to various "scholars" who have explained some of the group’s teachings and practices. These "scholars" describe the group’s Charter as a "very innovative and unique document". I am interested who these scholars are and if any of them are also sponsored by the group? What about this document did they find "unique" or "innovative"? It is my understanding, from reading through the sources, that this document is something any organization should expect to produce within a few years of its existence. The fact that it took 27 years for them to produce it and that it contains clauses stating that the groups leadership could "revoke any of the rights at any time ... and more responsibilities could be added" seems anything but "innovative" to me. Thorwald
The pro-COG editors have tried to remove any material suggesting the group’s controversial writings about adult/minor sex. Again, all material in this article covering pedophilia within this group (or by David Berg) was taken from sources. Some of these sources include the groups own writings (i.e. "The Story of Davidito" or "My Little Fish") and were referred to by The Rt. Hon. Lord Justice Ward in his 1995 ruling ( [5] under the sections of "Sharing" and "The Story of Davidito", etc.). The fact that these books were ordered destroyed by their leadership and are no longer in circulation does not erase their history and association with this group and, thus, I suggest their inclusion within this article. Thorwald
The extract from Summit Jewels seems to violate the copyright rules as listed below so I deleted it.--
Cognomen 23:32, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I have removed reference to pedophilia. I will allow that allegations of child abuse were laid against the Family in each of the countries listed. However, in looking over the documents I do not see one instance of the term pedophilia being used. If the allegations of pedophilia cannot be substantiated by documents then I don't see how this can stay in as it seems it is based on hearsay. Also, the final documents available in each case show that evidence of abuse was not found. So I have reworded this part to reflect the facts. -- Cognomen2 17:37, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
For the above reasons, I believe the article should be reverted back to its original material. If the pro-COG editors wish to include material, I would suggest that they back up their claims with sources and use the NPOV guidelines. I call upon the other editors of this article to back me up on these points. Thank you! Thorwald 06:10, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The user 216.70.243.114 continues to remove any information on the FCF in the main article and in this discussion/talk page. This user has deleted sections of posts in this page (about FCF) that were not his or her posts. I find this practice unethical and it should be, if is isn't already, grounds for banning the user. Until this user discusses his or her deletions and gives credible reasons for such actions, I will continue to revert to the original versions. Thorwald 21:56, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
It is interesting to note that a 'whois' on this user's IP address (216.70.243.114) yields the following (note: bold added by me). Thorwald 04:45, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC):
216.70.224.0 - 216.70.255.255
Family Care Foundation FAMILY-CARE-FOUNDATION (NET-216-70-243-112-1)
216.70.243.112 - 216.70.243.127
CustName: Family Care Foundation
Address: 1373 Marron Valley Rd
City: Dulzura
StateProv: CA
PostalCode: 91917
Country: US
RegDate: 2003-08-19
Updated: 2003-08-19
I would like to suggest the addition of a section covering the topic of the Mo Letters (i.e. Berg's dreams and visions, counsel, prophecies, lectures, etc.) as well as how they were viewed by The Family's members to be God's Word for today and, in some cases, to hold precedence over Biblical scripture. A section like this has the potential to become far larger than necessary, so I think it would be wise to determine what the focus of this proposed section should be and/or if it should be expounded on further in a separate article. WalkerJ 07:10, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps it might be appropriate to list, or at least give a number of young people born in the cult who have taken their lives. We might also consider mentioning characteristics common to many young people who have left, such as depression, drug and alcohol abuse, risky behaviors, working in the sex industry, etc., while of course emphasizing that not ALL former members of the second generation have these problems. What does everyone think? ThePedanticPrick 21:25, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Pray, Obey and Prepare!
Introduction to the 2002 Study Month By Maria and Peter CM 3420 9/02
6. (Mama:) The battle is certainly becoming more fierce, both in the spiritual realm with the Enemy's attacks intensifying, and with our detractors and apostates becoming more determined to cause as much trouble for the Family as possible and to weaken your faith through their half-truths, exaggerations, lies, and false accusations.
11. In addition to helping us to be the witnesses and fruitful missionaries we need to be, being strong in our foundation of faith is crucial when we experience persecution and hear the accusations of apostates.
14. If you and those in your Home have made commitments to not read the accusations of our detractors and apostates, and to not go on the ex-member Web sites, Peter and I commend you. That's the best thing to do...But even if you are steering completely clear of the verbal attacks of our apostates, you still need to be prepared for eventual persecution 39. ... It's a dilemma to know how to pray the most effective prayers in situations when you're having to pray against people who were once Family members and who are now detractors or apostates who are out to do us serious damage.
87. To begin with, let's review what the Lord predicted in the CvsC series when He said: “There will be yet more apostates, more detractors with outlandish stories to test and try the hearts of the children of David. Warn the Family, let them know that this is what's happening and why. Those who receive this will be forewarned and will recognize the attacks of the Enemy when they come their way. Those who have been faithful to study and believe and come to Me and receive My seeds will stand” (ML #3361:61-62, GN 957). 88. Then in “More on the Keys” the Lord said: “There will be more false accusers and their words will test the faith of some” (ML #3351:86, GN 946). So we shouldn't be surprised that we are now seeing a new round of attacks from apostates, and that there are new voices being raised against the Family. The Lord warned us that this would come.
116. Though these apostates think this is their own doing and that they are causing major problems and disruption in your lives and work, they stand before Me as those who are blind with pride and are simply pawns in My hands...
130. It has recently been brought to our attention by some of our faithful media folks that the postings on various ex-member sites are becoming increasingly aggressive and belligerent. There are a number of detractors who are trying to rally those who have left--even those who have been friendly for years--to unite to fight the Family. They're talking about trying to hinder our work through such things as class action lawsuits, requests for law enforcement investigations, personal lawsuits against individuals, criminal complaints, use of the media, production of their stories through documentaries, books, and writings, etc. 163. (Mama:) The Lord knows we need this information to combat our enemies' attempts to destroy the Family. We need to pray both against the Enemy using our detractors and apostates, as well as misguided officials, sensationalistic reporters, deluded lawyers or publishers, and against the specific evil spirits, the Vandari, that inspire these people's ungodly actions and stories. Use the keys and the key promises to pray against our enemies, and against these vile, disgusting vandals that live in the filthy, putrid sewers of the depths of the netherworld!
Manicmoe 22:07, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
157. And, while we must fight back against the verbal attacks of a few of our former members, those that we consider apostates and who have openly declared that they want to destroy the Family and what we stand for, the vast majority of former members do not fall into that category, as I mentioned in "The Next Focus in the Battle." The majority of those who have left the Family have the same respect for your choice to remain as you do for their choice to leave. -- Peter Amsterdam, January 22 2005.
(Maria:) There's a huge range of attitudes and relationships among our children and loved ones who have left. Some are bitter, angry, and vindictive. Others are unhappy and struggling. Others are indifferent toward the Family, or fairly content in their new lifestyle. Others remain very hungry for the Word, counsel, love and fellowship.
I don't like to dwell on the negative, but this GN is going to focus mainly on your relationship with those who have bitterness or grudges against you or against the Family, or who even go further than that and are actively working against us. But before we get into that, let me say that there are many former members who don't fall into that category at all. In fact, in comparison to the many thousands of former members, just a very small but very vocal minority fall into that category. We have many former members who still appreciate our love and communication, and do their best to stay positive and to dwell on the things we have in common. We are proud of them, and urge you to help and encourage and support and feed them spiritually in whatever ways the Lord shows you are appropriate in your situation. -- Maria (Karen Zerby), ML #3459:6–9, GN 1044, published May 2003.
In October 1996, Dust and Simon (both members of the North American Continental leadership) and I met for two days in Jacksonville, Florida, with "Safe Haven" members Sharon and Pope Wilson (known in the Family as Jaakan Giant), George and Woodie Terrel, John and Linda Hardy (known in the Family as Nekoda and Bathshua) and Abraham Brosius. The purpose of this meeting was for all of us to gain a better understanding of one another, to explore ways to overcome past hurts and to find ways to prevent future problems and misunderstandings between current and former members, in an effort to heal the rift and establish a relationship of love and acceptance of each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. During this meeting there was a healthy and spirited exchange of ideas, grievances, explanations and the like. All parties went away with a better understanding of the other's point of view, which seemed to draw us all closer together, having seen and heard each other's hurts, opinions and outlook.…
We, the Family's leadership, have acknowledged that some former members were treated unfairly, harshly, and in an unloving manner, and we have officially apologized for this in a number of publications over the last few years. It is also understood that some former members have spoken out in the media against the Family, while others have actively campaigned for governmental action against the Family, all of which has resulted in Family members being harassed, Homes being raided and, in some cases, children being forcibly taken away from their parents at gunpoint. There has been hurt on both sides. However, it's important to understand that not every Family member was responsible for or caused the hurt experienced by those who left the Family, just like not every former member was responsible for the trauma suffered by Family members and their children at the hands of the media and government authorities. It would therefore be best to avoid blaming either the Family as a whole, or former members in general, for the hurt and pain experienced on either side. As stated earlier, we clearly understand that some former members have had negative and hurtful experiences in the Family. We have apologized in written publications a number of times over the last years. However, you personally may not have received a copy of these publications. The following is an excerpt from one of those publications, written by Maria in September 1995: "Likewise, if any of you ex-members who may be reading this have had negative sexual experiences while with us, or you were treated unlovingly or harshly, either before or after you left the Family, we are sorry. Our goal is to be the Lord's Family of Love, so if you suffered unloving treatment from any Family member, we ask you to please forgive us. The Lord has been teaching us all a lot about how important it is that we are loving and kind with one another. As a Family, we are asking Him to help us to love Him and others more, for without love we have nothing! So if we failed you in not being loving enough, please forgive us." (End of excerpt by Maria.) From "An Open Letter to All Current and Former Family Members", by Peter , published February 1996.
In 1994, The Family initiated a concerted reconciliation process to attempt to resolve differences with any and all former members who held grievances either from their time in The Family or from the lack of communication with Family members after they departed. In 1994 and 1995, in open letters to former members, Family leadership officially addressed concerns in regard to any questionable past actions of individuals regarding discipline, education, or sexual misconduct that any may have undergone from 1978 to 1985 before clear guidelines were articulated. These apologies were published and have been reiterated in official Family publications over the years. The Family's Charter (first published in 1995) also advises parents to assume responsibility for assisting their children through what can be a difficult transition from a close, nurturing, faith-based support system to an independent secular lifestyle. --Statement by Claire Borowik for The Family International, January 2005.
I will restate the position I put in the edits: A neutral analysis of the Second Generation of the Family should include commentary on those who remain in the movement (taking into account, for examples, the hundreds of opinions written by Second Generation Members posted at www.myconclusion.com); those who leave for various reasons, but either do not or do not vocalise public criticisms; and those who have a critical approach. Don't all three groups deserve space in the analysis, if it is going to be a factual portrayal of the second generation?--
Details 14:51, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)
It appears the recent paragraph or paragraphs about Richard Rodriguez and his murder/suicide are becoming more of a news column (or story) than an excerpt from an encyclopedic article. I agree that Mr. Rodriguez (and Angela Smith) are intricately tied to the history of this group and that he was the son and "heir" of Karen Zerby and David Berg. This news or information is certainly related to this group. However, is there a way to include him in this article in a more general and historical way without becoming a news article? These are just thoughts. What does everyone else think? Thorwald 22:07, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Thorwald why do you keep del these names? I think they are relevant, esp Philip Sherwood/James Penn. He has written things linked from this page, why can't his name stay? Audiofree
This material is from the article List of purported cults, which we are paring down to a pure list. Editors here can best evaluate its statements and decide how to integrate it into this article. Thanks, - Willmcw 21:08, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
Andries: Why do you find the interwiki language material on NRMs "erroneous" with respect to the Children of God? I happen to speak German (fluently) and the following is certainly related (and one doesn't need to understand German to understand this): Kinder Gottes (oder "Children of God"/"The Family"),... (from one of the links you removed). — Thorwald 03:48, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Whether or not having a sexual relationship with one's deity is mainstream or not is immaterial to the purpose of this article. Mainstream means different things to different people; let's please just state the facts, not opinions. I think long descriptions of historical, er, Jesus-loving is un-called-for. A brief description of it as the Family practices it, along with some links to pages which provide the historical context is fine. Otherwise, this article becomes conflated and unreadable. ThePedanticPrick 18:57, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
My guru told me more or less to do the same. Andries 19:57, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
One of the more unusual teachings Zerby has propagated, her encouragement to followers to engage in a spiritual sexual relationship with Jesus stands out as the most unusual. Male members of the group are encouraged to visualize themselves as women "in the spirit" during masturbation or intercourse in order to accommodate this practice.
Zerby's encouragement to followers to engage in a spiritual sexual relationship with Jesus stands out as an extension of medieval mystical teaching, echoing the intimate language of the Biblical Song of Solomon. Female and male members of the group are encouraged to visualize themselves as the wife of Christ "in the spirit" during masturbation or intercourse in order to accommodate this practice. This doctrine is explained in the Family publications Loving Jesus Part 1 and Loving Jesus Part 2, see below for links to these.
Love Words to Jesus:
For those of you who may have a hard time thinking of love words to say to the Lord, we're including the following list of examples. Besides saying these types of words to Jesus, you might even want to say some of these things to your mate or loved one when making love together.
Less Erotic:
* I want You, need You, desire You, yearn for You ...
* I want You to kiss me, caress me, touch me ...
* I love Your kisses, caresses, touches, Words of love, seeds ...
* Come! I'm here for You.
* Oh please, I want You!
* I want Your seeds.
* My darling. My sweetheart. My precious Love. My Bridegroom.
* Come and lie in the bed of love with me.
* I want to be in love with You, Jesus.
* Come to Me, Jesus! Be here with me and love me. Let's hold each other and say words of love to each other.
* Come to my bed, come to my arms, come to my kisses, to my lips!
* Come into me, I want to be one with You.
* Kiss me, caress me, love me, fill me completely.
* I want to lie in Your arms.
* Hold me, I love You. Come fill me.
* I want to woo You, Jesus, and to be wooed by You.
* I want You inside of me! Give me Your seeds.
* I want to make You happy by kissing You, and by loving You in whatever way You wish.
* Your wonderful touches and kisses make me happy.
* Please satisfy me.
* I want Your kisses.
* I kiss You.
* Touch me, love me. I want to be one with You.
* I'm open for You.
* Fill me.
* I surrender to You, Jesus. I'm all Yours. Take hold of me.
* I need You, Jesus. I want You, Jesus. Hold me.
* You excite me, Jesus, and I want to feel Your love. I want to excite You, too!
* Jesus, You're the Lover of all lovers.
* Teach me how to love You.
* I love You so much, my dear Darling, my wonderful Sweetheart and marvelous Lover, my faithful Husband!
* I'm Yours and I'm one with You, Jesus.
* I'm in love with You as My Lover, My Husband and My Bridegroom!
* I'm all Yours, and I give You everything.
* You make me feel so good.
More Erotic:
* I'm all naked for You, Jesus, and desperate for Your love! Come to me.
* I want to enjoy You, Jesus, to look at You, to taste You, to feel You, to fuck You!
* I've got to have You in my arms. I've got to feel Your naked body pressed to mine.
* I'm getting so hot for You! I've got to have Your lips on mine!
* You turn me on!
* Your touch is so tender, it makes me feel so loved, so secure, so warm, so wanted.
* You're beautiful, Jesus, and so sexy--sexier than I ever dreamed--so handsome, so naked and so hard!
* You draw me near, and my heart skips a beat. I tremble under Your touch.
* Your touch melts me. It moves me, stimulates me, sends me.
* Touch me through the hands that You made. Possess me!
* I'm really getting horny for You, Jesus.
* I want to feel all Your love and all Your passion!
* Jesus, show me what I can do to You to make You feel good.
* I want to excite You and give You pleasure and satisfy You, as You excite and please and satisfy me.
* Jesus, I'll do anything for You. I'll do anything to give You pleasure. Let me satisfy You. Teach me what You like best.
* I want to show You how hot and horny and passionate I am for You!
* I want to enjoy You. I take pleasure in caressing You, kissing You, fondling You.
* I want to know You completely--every inch of You.
* I want to kiss You everywhere.
* I want to suck Your penis. I want to suck Your seeds!
* I'm wild about You! I'm crazy about Your penis!
* My pussy is excited for You, Jesus!
* I'm juicy for You.
* I'm prepared, Jesus. I'm wet. I'm wanting You.
* I'm so excited and I'm so horny for You, Jesus!
* I want to feel the ecstasies of Your love!
* You've got to fuck me now!
* Yes, yes, I want more! I want more than words. I want more than spiritual communications! I want to feel it, I want to know it, in my heart and in my body and in my spirit.
* I can't wait any longer!--I'm overcome with desire for You, for Your penis, for Your seeds.
* I can't wait. I've got to have You, Jesus! Your love excites me! I've got to have You inside me!
* I crave You, Jesus. I'm hot for You! My legs are spread to receive Your penis! Enter into me! Give me Your seeds.
* I'm desperate for Your big, hard penis! I crave it, because I want Your seeds!
* I need Your penis! I need to feel You explode inside me, giving me Your seeds!
* I receive Your love, Lord, with open arms and open legs and a receptive heart.
* I'm Yours. I give myself to You in complete surrender, for Your pleasure. Do whatever You want with me.
* Come into me, Jesus. Fuck me. Make me go, Jesus!
* Fuck me! Take me!
* Hurry, Jesus! I need You now.
* Fuck me long and hard and deep. I want to feel You in the very heart of me. Longer, harder, deeper!
* I can't get enough of You. I have to have all of You!
* Come, Jesus! Oh please, come!
* I can't do without Your seeds. Please give them to me!
* Yes, yes! Fuck me, fuck me! Don't stop! Don't stop! I want You! I need You! Give me Your seeds!
* Fill me with Your seeds. Flood me with Your seeds. Explode in me!
* Give me more, more, more. Don't stop until I have every drop of Your love, every one of Your seeds.
* It feels so good to have You inside me, Jesus! I've never known such pleasure, such ecstasy.
* Jesus, I'm lost in Your love. With every thrust of Your penis You take me higher and higher.
* Don't stop! Don't ever stop fucking me! Let this thrill, this ecstasy, go on and on and on and on forever!
* Your penis drives me wild. I'm out of control, but don't stop!
* I went for You.
* Oh my Darling, my Darling, how I love to fuck You! How I love to be fucked by You!
* I've never known such joy and satisfaction as this!
* Jesus, You're the best! No other love can compare.
* Thank You for wanting me, for desiring me, for exciting me. Thank You for wanting to fuck me and become one with me and give me Your seeds.
* Thank You for giving Yourself to me so freely, so completely. Thank You for letting me explore Your naked body in all its majesty--to hold You, to kiss You, to suck You, to fuck You.
* You're so wonderful! Source: Cool Tips for Hot Sex! http://www.exfamily.org/pubs/ml/b2/b_cooltp_sc.shtml
Manicmoe 12:37, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If these dudes want to believe in bridal theology, who is to say that is wrong. From my study of the group, the Loving Jesus revelation is a personal matter between the person and Jesus. So what they want to personally believe and pratice is a freedom given to them by the Constitution of the USA, no? I don't think they are forcing it on anyone. I would suppose most people have their belief system which they feel is their right and no one elses can tell them how to believe. There are some pretty weird belief systems in America, or which the COGs is just one of them, so what? That is what made America so great and so free. —Sweetheat
"It is possible this was prompted in part by clinical blindness that she developed during the 1990s." I removed this sentence because it simply is not the case. All you have to do is look at Karen's pictures on various internet sites to see that she is anything but legally blind. She sees as well as anyone from the information I have received from those that live with her. On top of that this is quite a presumption on someone's part as to why channeling came about in the group I think. I suppose we want to keep this as factual as we can and not put in our suppositions and theories, since that has no relevance to and encyclopedia entry on a group. —Sweetheat
Does the COG really consider itself to be a fundamentalist Christian denomination? Does it adhere to the "five pillars":
The COG does not strike me as a conventional fundamentalist group. - Willmcw 07:14, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
The original text seemed unbalanced, with many paragraphs on the sexuality and abuse issues, and very little on what other developments occured in the the movement at this time. I have tried to redress this and added more general information. I have included citations which may be too long in the final text, but I wanted you to see the sources for what I have changed. (By the way, I'm Details2 who was earlier Details - I was away and forgot my password. -- Details2 30 June 2005 17:54 (UTC)
I deleted this small section. I don't see the point in having it there. The movement has had a history of almost 40 years and there are undoubtedly scores of people who could be listed as "former leaders". The movement's variable structure has meant that it is likely that almost every current member over the age of 30, if not younger, has held a leadership position at some point in time, whether on a local, area, national, regional or continental level. Listing about a half dozen alleged "former leaders" doesn't convey any useful information that I can see. -- Details2 30 June 2005 18:12 (UTC)
I have removed the name of the person who allegedly committed the legal offense of fraud. I checked out the link that was there originally, and did not see any verification about this incident, and I do not think we should published unsubstantiated criminal accusations against a named individual unless there is some verifiable corroboration (legal document). -- Details2 5 July 2005 15:40 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |