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This article was nominated for deletion on 23 February 2016. The result of the discussion was keep. |
I have removed contradicting lines of text. Lines written reflect authors personal opinion and are not based on any reliable source and/or the are ether slippery slope or post hoc derivatives. Moreover, sources cited in the text actually claim that lines written there are not true.
The text was later often quoted and cited as one of the fundamental documents of the Greater Serbia ideology in the 20th century; that is the basis for methods that were used during the breakup of Yugoslavia by the Serbian authorities for the purpose of ethnic cleansing of Albanians, Muslims, and Croats.
Some authors believe that Čubrilović's plan to expel Albanians from Kosovo actualized in 1999 by Slobodan Milošević's government under the name " Operation Horseshoe". [1] [2] The report is deemed chauvinistic and nationalistic and was used as a reference to the Serbian atrocities in Kosovo in 1999 by Joe DioGuardi as he spoke to the US parliament demanding that the United States should be launching NATO-attacks against Yugoslavia. During the campaign of ethnic cleansing, over 850,000 Albanians left Kosovo, but soon returned after the withdrawal of Yugoslav troops.
The document was mentioned and published in January 1988 in the Belgrade newspaper Borba, and later in Zagreb-based magazine Start. Čubrilović's document was not supported by Yugoslav historians and professors except for Ivo Andrić.
-- Pixius talk 22:01, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
References
@ Albanian Historian:, can you please find out where is this location called Rogozona that is mentioned next to Debar in the article? Thanks. -- Mondiad ( talk) 03:34, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
Sure, i'll have a look! -- Albanian Historian ( talk) 08:20, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
https://www.google.se/maps/place/Rogozna,+Vojkoviće,+Serbien/@43.1038053,20.0225295,9z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x1353310de1f465ff:0xff454617b156c515 Its most likely in Serbia.
https://www.google.se/maps/place/Rogozna/@43.1428719,20.5149413,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x4756286cb166f5a7:0xc1b90987945d3121 It could also be in Novi Pazar...
-- Albanian Historian ( talk) 08:28, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
For those who want to rename this article to The expulsion of the Arnauts, can you please start a title move page discussion instead of moving the page according to your own volition and acting in less than good faith. The article was originally created with the title The expulsion of the Albanians. The reason given by Zoupan who always uses google scholar/books and the amount of hits to change a page title (cites in multiple talkpages) was not given here (and one is left curious why there is a absence here). Instead all that was given as the reason for changing it is "Proper translation". That reason is less than forth coming. Is this document known in English language publications as "The expulsion of the Albanians" or is it known as "The expulsion of the Arnauts"? Those wanting a change need to provide evidence that warrants their rationale for change. Otherwise is this a case of wp:idontlikeit. All involved, please follow policy when regarding the matter otherwise all will be reported if constant POV pushing and edit warring continues. Thank you. Resnjari ( talk) 14:13, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
'The Expulsion of the Arnauts' [a Turkish word for Albanians]
"The Expulsion of the Arnauts (Albanians)" written by Dr. Vaso Chubrilovich
"The Expulsion of the Arnauts" (Albanians) by the Serbian Academician Vasa Cubrilovic
Note that the sources presented by Resnjari most often cite other retranslations, such as the one by Elsie, and not the original work (the lecture), which, we can safely conclude, was Arnauts.--
Zoupan 15:34, 7 February 2016 (UTC) Blocked sock:
Ajdebre.
The edit war pushed by
Fez120 needs to stop. No explanations have been given. I was asked by
Mondiad to have a look at the article, did, and made some improvements, citing reliable sources, etc. I ask Fez120, who
compared the paper to Hitler's extermination of Jews and
makes some correlation with the "origin of the Albanians and the autochthonous issue" to explain which revision is better and why, since he believes my edits are "bias, camouflaging, bullshit" I would want a better explanation.--
Zoupan 15:43, 7 February 2016 (UTC) Blocked sock:
Ajdebre.
I am done giving you explanations since you don't accept any. You are making bias changes, you are cleaning this article from any kind of Serbian responsibility and tying it to make it like a Serbian solution to problem caused by Albanians. Fez120 ( talk) 16:06, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
Vaso CubriloviéII5 suggested a radical solution to the Albanian question in a policy paper
for failing to address the Albanian question, Cubrilovic rejected gradual methods of mass removal and slow colonisation in favour ...
... of the Albanians reveals that although Vasa Cubrilovic was born and grown up in Bosnia, he knew the Albanian question ...
Cubrilovic, a senior historian at Belgrade university ... bold answers for the Kosovo Albanian question.
Some quotes on Albanian question=Greater Albania:
Rexhep Qosja stated: "I regard the Albanian question as one embracing all unliberated Albanians living on Albanian territory ...
Kosovo's independence also revisits the Albanian question in the Balkans with regard to a greater Albania
the socalled Albanian question of Greater Albania
If you can't refute the reliable sources in the article, you have no right whatsoever to remove these (by reverting whole revisions) just because you don't like it. It is not for you to decide or accept (as you have commented). I have warned you and invited you to discuss. Your comments make it clear that you are a troll, calling edits bullshit and bias and comparing the subject to the Holocaust, you are even implying that this paper was actually an expulsion, when it was not. Now hesht.--
Zoupan 16:41, 7 February 2016 (UTC) Blocked sock:
Ajdebre.
@ Zoupan:, why not bold out below some points on what to be changed and how - so we can all discuss them one by one rather than dive in an edit war. -- Mondiad ( talk) 17:42, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
I don't see how a (more recent) "major threat" is needed for Čubrilović's concern to the "Albanian question", which is obviously and explicitly Albanian irredentism/Greater Albania. Do I need to point out the importance of Kosovo (Albanians) in Albanian nationalism? Aren't you implementing your own analysis by removing that fact despite reliable sources? He is merely criticizing the past colonization and reforms. You need an overview (the whole picture), and not points, to understand why it is relevant, if you really don't. Better critical thinking. He says:
"... that Albanian block around Šar Mountains is of huge importance, of both national-statal and strategical importance to our state ... such important strategical positions not to leave in the hands of, towards us, hostile and foreign element. All the more because that element has the support of the kin national state (Albania). For now, (Albania) is still powerless, however, as such it became the base of Italian imperialism, through which (Albania) thinks of invading into the heart of our state. Against that invasion ... [Yugoslavs/Serbs will] protect their state. ... Apart from that block of 18 districts, Albanians and other national minorities in the south live scattered, thus are not that dangerous for our national-state life. Nationalizing areas around the Šar Mountains means to forever kill (destroy) all irredentism and forever secure the holding of those lands ... in the supporter of Albania their national consciousness are awakening, and if we don't deal with things on time, in 20-30 years we will have an egregious irredentism whose traces are already perceived (made aware of) and which will inevitably bring into question all our possessions in the South."
I think this is as clear as it gets, from his own words. One needs to separate the hypothetical "question" (possession/securement of Kosovo/Albanian-concentrated lands in Yugoslavia vs. Albanian irredentism/Greater Albania) from the hypothetical "answer" (pressure, terror, expulsion). Now, judging by the aftermath, Čubrilović wasn't that naive. Albania became an Italian protectorate and the Balli Kombëtar and Vulnetari rampaged freely, not to mention SS Skanderbeg. --
Zoupan 06:52, 8 February 2016 (UTC) Blocked sock:
Ajdebre.
Why is the date 7 March 1937 dubious? -- Mondiad ( talk) 02:17, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
The lecture is mostly cited as having taken place on 7 March 1937 at the Serbian Cultural Club in Belgrade. Sources make no mention of another lecture. The dating of the paper (or memorandum), when it would have been presented to the government, is unclear. Petersen (2011) and Elsie incorrectly state 7 March 1937 as the date of the memorandum. For it to be a
memorandum in the (strict) sense, it needs to have some "official" status, thus, it is only right to call it by the neutral term, a paper (a "policy paper"?). There are no indications that it was "official", i.e. state-supported, or made public. Going through the sources, it is also unclear how it got into the hands of the government. Some state that it was an official government memorandum presented on 7 March 1937, which would indeed mean that the paper/lecture was "official", which is dubious; some that it was presented to the government in 1937, or at an undisclosed date, after the lecture; some that it was later deposited into the JNA archive, meaning after 1945. It is variously claimed/interpreted as though: he was a government minister at that time (false, after WWII); he was a professor at that time (false, in 1939); he was an academic at that time (false, in 1959/61). We need to be clear about the dating, terminology and status.--
Zoupan 09:19, 8 February 2016 (UTC) Moved from draft --
Zoupan 11:54, 8 March 2016 (UTC) Blocked sock:
Ajdebre.
... Probably best known are the views of Vaso Čubrilović, at the time a lecturer at Belgrade University, put forth before an audience at the Serbian Cultural Club. Albanian historiography consistently refers to this text usually claiming that it as written at the request of the Yugoslav General Staff. But there is not a shred of evidence to support this claim. Rather, it seems that it somehow had come into the possession of the military intelligence service and was eventually stored in the Military Archive (In interwar Belgrade, it was common practice to submit one’s written opinion on an issue to prominent persons in an attempt to exert influence on them) — Bjelajac, Mile. Migrations of ethnic Albanians in Kosovo 1938-1950
I was about to list some sources which prove that the interpretation of this lecture/paper wildly fluctuates, so as to make it clear not to portray it falsely. I found the above quote just now.--
Zoupan 11:54, 8 March 2016 (UTC) Blocked sock:
Ajdebre.
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was nominated for deletion on 23 February 2016. The result of the discussion was keep. |
I have removed contradicting lines of text. Lines written reflect authors personal opinion and are not based on any reliable source and/or the are ether slippery slope or post hoc derivatives. Moreover, sources cited in the text actually claim that lines written there are not true.
The text was later often quoted and cited as one of the fundamental documents of the Greater Serbia ideology in the 20th century; that is the basis for methods that were used during the breakup of Yugoslavia by the Serbian authorities for the purpose of ethnic cleansing of Albanians, Muslims, and Croats.
Some authors believe that Čubrilović's plan to expel Albanians from Kosovo actualized in 1999 by Slobodan Milošević's government under the name " Operation Horseshoe". [1] [2] The report is deemed chauvinistic and nationalistic and was used as a reference to the Serbian atrocities in Kosovo in 1999 by Joe DioGuardi as he spoke to the US parliament demanding that the United States should be launching NATO-attacks against Yugoslavia. During the campaign of ethnic cleansing, over 850,000 Albanians left Kosovo, but soon returned after the withdrawal of Yugoslav troops.
The document was mentioned and published in January 1988 in the Belgrade newspaper Borba, and later in Zagreb-based magazine Start. Čubrilović's document was not supported by Yugoslav historians and professors except for Ivo Andrić.
-- Pixius talk 22:01, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
References
@ Albanian Historian:, can you please find out where is this location called Rogozona that is mentioned next to Debar in the article? Thanks. -- Mondiad ( talk) 03:34, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
Sure, i'll have a look! -- Albanian Historian ( talk) 08:20, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
https://www.google.se/maps/place/Rogozna,+Vojkoviće,+Serbien/@43.1038053,20.0225295,9z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x1353310de1f465ff:0xff454617b156c515 Its most likely in Serbia.
https://www.google.se/maps/place/Rogozna/@43.1428719,20.5149413,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x4756286cb166f5a7:0xc1b90987945d3121 It could also be in Novi Pazar...
-- Albanian Historian ( talk) 08:28, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
For those who want to rename this article to The expulsion of the Arnauts, can you please start a title move page discussion instead of moving the page according to your own volition and acting in less than good faith. The article was originally created with the title The expulsion of the Albanians. The reason given by Zoupan who always uses google scholar/books and the amount of hits to change a page title (cites in multiple talkpages) was not given here (and one is left curious why there is a absence here). Instead all that was given as the reason for changing it is "Proper translation". That reason is less than forth coming. Is this document known in English language publications as "The expulsion of the Albanians" or is it known as "The expulsion of the Arnauts"? Those wanting a change need to provide evidence that warrants their rationale for change. Otherwise is this a case of wp:idontlikeit. All involved, please follow policy when regarding the matter otherwise all will be reported if constant POV pushing and edit warring continues. Thank you. Resnjari ( talk) 14:13, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
'The Expulsion of the Arnauts' [a Turkish word for Albanians]
"The Expulsion of the Arnauts (Albanians)" written by Dr. Vaso Chubrilovich
"The Expulsion of the Arnauts" (Albanians) by the Serbian Academician Vasa Cubrilovic
Note that the sources presented by Resnjari most often cite other retranslations, such as the one by Elsie, and not the original work (the lecture), which, we can safely conclude, was Arnauts.--
Zoupan 15:34, 7 February 2016 (UTC) Blocked sock:
Ajdebre.
The edit war pushed by
Fez120 needs to stop. No explanations have been given. I was asked by
Mondiad to have a look at the article, did, and made some improvements, citing reliable sources, etc. I ask Fez120, who
compared the paper to Hitler's extermination of Jews and
makes some correlation with the "origin of the Albanians and the autochthonous issue" to explain which revision is better and why, since he believes my edits are "bias, camouflaging, bullshit" I would want a better explanation.--
Zoupan 15:43, 7 February 2016 (UTC) Blocked sock:
Ajdebre.
I am done giving you explanations since you don't accept any. You are making bias changes, you are cleaning this article from any kind of Serbian responsibility and tying it to make it like a Serbian solution to problem caused by Albanians. Fez120 ( talk) 16:06, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
Vaso CubriloviéII5 suggested a radical solution to the Albanian question in a policy paper
for failing to address the Albanian question, Cubrilovic rejected gradual methods of mass removal and slow colonisation in favour ...
... of the Albanians reveals that although Vasa Cubrilovic was born and grown up in Bosnia, he knew the Albanian question ...
Cubrilovic, a senior historian at Belgrade university ... bold answers for the Kosovo Albanian question.
Some quotes on Albanian question=Greater Albania:
Rexhep Qosja stated: "I regard the Albanian question as one embracing all unliberated Albanians living on Albanian territory ...
Kosovo's independence also revisits the Albanian question in the Balkans with regard to a greater Albania
the socalled Albanian question of Greater Albania
If you can't refute the reliable sources in the article, you have no right whatsoever to remove these (by reverting whole revisions) just because you don't like it. It is not for you to decide or accept (as you have commented). I have warned you and invited you to discuss. Your comments make it clear that you are a troll, calling edits bullshit and bias and comparing the subject to the Holocaust, you are even implying that this paper was actually an expulsion, when it was not. Now hesht.--
Zoupan 16:41, 7 February 2016 (UTC) Blocked sock:
Ajdebre.
@ Zoupan:, why not bold out below some points on what to be changed and how - so we can all discuss them one by one rather than dive in an edit war. -- Mondiad ( talk) 17:42, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
I don't see how a (more recent) "major threat" is needed for Čubrilović's concern to the "Albanian question", which is obviously and explicitly Albanian irredentism/Greater Albania. Do I need to point out the importance of Kosovo (Albanians) in Albanian nationalism? Aren't you implementing your own analysis by removing that fact despite reliable sources? He is merely criticizing the past colonization and reforms. You need an overview (the whole picture), and not points, to understand why it is relevant, if you really don't. Better critical thinking. He says:
"... that Albanian block around Šar Mountains is of huge importance, of both national-statal and strategical importance to our state ... such important strategical positions not to leave in the hands of, towards us, hostile and foreign element. All the more because that element has the support of the kin national state (Albania). For now, (Albania) is still powerless, however, as such it became the base of Italian imperialism, through which (Albania) thinks of invading into the heart of our state. Against that invasion ... [Yugoslavs/Serbs will] protect their state. ... Apart from that block of 18 districts, Albanians and other national minorities in the south live scattered, thus are not that dangerous for our national-state life. Nationalizing areas around the Šar Mountains means to forever kill (destroy) all irredentism and forever secure the holding of those lands ... in the supporter of Albania their national consciousness are awakening, and if we don't deal with things on time, in 20-30 years we will have an egregious irredentism whose traces are already perceived (made aware of) and which will inevitably bring into question all our possessions in the South."
I think this is as clear as it gets, from his own words. One needs to separate the hypothetical "question" (possession/securement of Kosovo/Albanian-concentrated lands in Yugoslavia vs. Albanian irredentism/Greater Albania) from the hypothetical "answer" (pressure, terror, expulsion). Now, judging by the aftermath, Čubrilović wasn't that naive. Albania became an Italian protectorate and the Balli Kombëtar and Vulnetari rampaged freely, not to mention SS Skanderbeg. --
Zoupan 06:52, 8 February 2016 (UTC) Blocked sock:
Ajdebre.
Why is the date 7 March 1937 dubious? -- Mondiad ( talk) 02:17, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
The lecture is mostly cited as having taken place on 7 March 1937 at the Serbian Cultural Club in Belgrade. Sources make no mention of another lecture. The dating of the paper (or memorandum), when it would have been presented to the government, is unclear. Petersen (2011) and Elsie incorrectly state 7 March 1937 as the date of the memorandum. For it to be a
memorandum in the (strict) sense, it needs to have some "official" status, thus, it is only right to call it by the neutral term, a paper (a "policy paper"?). There are no indications that it was "official", i.e. state-supported, or made public. Going through the sources, it is also unclear how it got into the hands of the government. Some state that it was an official government memorandum presented on 7 March 1937, which would indeed mean that the paper/lecture was "official", which is dubious; some that it was presented to the government in 1937, or at an undisclosed date, after the lecture; some that it was later deposited into the JNA archive, meaning after 1945. It is variously claimed/interpreted as though: he was a government minister at that time (false, after WWII); he was a professor at that time (false, in 1939); he was an academic at that time (false, in 1959/61). We need to be clear about the dating, terminology and status.--
Zoupan 09:19, 8 February 2016 (UTC) Moved from draft --
Zoupan 11:54, 8 March 2016 (UTC) Blocked sock:
Ajdebre.
... Probably best known are the views of Vaso Čubrilović, at the time a lecturer at Belgrade University, put forth before an audience at the Serbian Cultural Club. Albanian historiography consistently refers to this text usually claiming that it as written at the request of the Yugoslav General Staff. But there is not a shred of evidence to support this claim. Rather, it seems that it somehow had come into the possession of the military intelligence service and was eventually stored in the Military Archive (In interwar Belgrade, it was common practice to submit one’s written opinion on an issue to prominent persons in an attempt to exert influence on them) — Bjelajac, Mile. Migrations of ethnic Albanians in Kosovo 1938-1950
I was about to list some sources which prove that the interpretation of this lecture/paper wildly fluctuates, so as to make it clear not to portray it falsely. I found the above quote just now.--
Zoupan 11:54, 8 March 2016 (UTC) Blocked sock:
Ajdebre.