This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Please do not restore this information to the article without a citation.-- BirgitteSB 21:39, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
This movie is mentioned in the Semen page's Popular Culture section... Why? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.171.239.69 ( talk) 19:38, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
There has been edit warring on this page between Gwern ( talk · contribs) and Bread Ninja ( talk · contribs) over whether a multitude of translations of the last line spoken in The End of Evangelion should be included in the article. Back on Gwern's talk page I asked them: "How does the addition of multiple translations of the last words spoken in The End of Evangelion improve/worsen the encyclopedic quality of the article?" I'm still waiting for answers to that question. Good raise 12:51, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
Under the Interpretation section, after the section from the English actor for Asuka, there is several spots that are very confusing and seems to have been cut apart and never fixed.
Example: "Some state that, despite tBut, as we saw in the series finale, there are many worlds, many possible people that each individual person can be, and we choose and guide our lives towards different ends as time passes. I find it hard to reconcile the Shinji here, who dismisses Instrumentality, with the Shinji we saw in the series, who embraced it.he somber ending the results of Instrumentality are not permanent."
What is the first part of the sentence trying to say? (What does 'despite tBut' mean?) And the second part? Why is it referring to 'I' in the second sentence? Is that word at the beginning of the 3rd sentence supposed to be 'The'? Is this really the place to show how it should be interpreted unless it is the official released and verified interpretation? Maybe a new article on interpretation of Envangelion should be considered? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.79.36.81 ( talk • contribs) 16:02, July 1, 2011
Quotes aren't necessary in the refs if they provide links. ANd sorry for the link description it's supposed to say "Featured articles don't proved QUOTES" not links. WHy provide links to the information if we're merely going to quote them anyways? There's no point, and gwern you don't even properly cite refs. So why even remove the quotes? Bread Ninja ( talk) 05:03, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
Excerpts are merely additional. Usefulness to that extent is "optional". So I don't think they're useful to what the article "needs". Bread Ninja ( talk) 00:45, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
I was asked to share my personal opinion on this article, which is essentially the same as the one I expressed here. As I have mentioned in the past, almost all Neon Genesis Evangelion articles have a wide availability of reliable secondary sources to easily achieve featured-class status, so this article should be aiming to achieve that status. But I do not believe that having long quotes, either within the body text or in the citations, helps improving the quality of an article towards being a featured-class article because a collection of quotes goes against what Wikipedia is not (see WP:NOTDIR) and that is more appropriate for Wikiquote. In this specific article, it can be easily seen that the quotes constitute around 30% of the article text and, from my point of view, it seems that almost half the article is composed of quotes visually. As I mentioned before, even with all these quotes, which are used to improve the quality, the article does not pass the referencing and citation criteria of the assessment quality scale, which implies that the current quotes at least haven't improved the article in that aspect. I really have a hard time finding a featured-class article (not good-class or lower) which uses as many quotes as this one. I can say that at least that none of the WikiProject anime and manga featured articles ( Shojo Beat, Madlax, Tokyo Mew Mew and School Rumble) uses such long quotations in citations or in the body text and this also appears to be the case with featured film articles, which I mention since The End of Evangelion is a film, so I think that this is a strong indication that quotes are not needed to improve the quality of a film, anime or manga article and, therefore, they are not necessary for The End of Evangelion either. I share all views from WP:QUOTEFARM and I believe that using too many quotes is incompatible with the encyclopedic writing style. This concern about long quotes is also expressed in citation templates like {{ Cite book}} where it says about the quote parameter: Should not be excessive in length: More than a few sentences is rarely needed, and if needed then the Wikipedia article's prose should probably more adequately address the topic and/or quote the material directly, e.g. with {{ quote}}. From my point of view, The End of Evangelion article abuses of quotes in citations and I believe that the quality of the article would be improved if the number and length of quotes were reduced to from their current size and number. Jfgslo ( talk) 20:03, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
We're not getting anywhere up there, so let's try looking at one of the experts in dispute:
"By opening their hearts to one another Shinji and Asuka at last have a chance at happiness. Unfortunately the brutality of this scene obscures its tender meaning, and the Evangelion saga ends on a dour note despite reprising the positive message from its television conclusion." (Crandol, Mike. "Understanding Evangelion". Anime News Network. Retrieved August 29, 2011.)
From this the article makes "The meaning of the final line is obscure". For anyone who didn't notice: This claim is not supported by the source, which is referring to the meaning of the scene, not the final line. Something needs to be done here, because there's no point to including references that don't support any part of the article. Good raise 08:56, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Looking at another of the excerpts:
"But, as we saw in the series finale, there are many worlds, many possible people that each individual person can be, and we choose and guide our lives towards different ends as time passes. I find it hard to reconcile the Shinji here, who dismisses Instrumentality, with the Shinji we saw in the series, who embraced it....It’s impossible to choose a definitive conclusion because it’s all real, it all exists and it all tells us something about the essential being that is Shinji Ikari. Shinji chokes Asuka as they lie on a postapocalyptic beach. Why? I honestly don’t know for sure at this point." ( "Thoughts on Stuff - Neon Genesis Evangelion: The End of Evangelion". Patrick Meaney. Retrieved August 29, 2011.)
Like with the quote above, the article makes of this "The meaning of the final line is obscure". I may be missing some big piece of the puzzle here, but it seems to me that the quote does not support the claim. Anyone care to set me right? Good raise 03:49, 24 November 2011 (UTC) Seems a lil odd.....yeah, the line didn't exactly said obscure nor anything close to that. Removal of it might be best or reworking in another way more exact. Lucia Black ( talk) 04:17, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
This is over. Darth Sjones23 ( talk - contributions) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
If Jfgslo has never edited this article or its talk page before, why are you asking them to come and state their opinion here? Dream Focus
|
"In the sea of LCL, Shinji wished for a world with other people. He desired to meet them again, even if it meant he would be hurt and betrayed. And just as he had hoped / wanted, Asuka was present in the new world. Only Asuka was there beside him. The girl whom he had hurt, and who had been hurt by him. But even so, she was the one he had hoped/wished for...."
Is this quote supposed to illustrate that Shinji loves Asuka? I was just interested. He did, after all, say to Asuka that he wanted to be with her forever earlier on. zictor23 ( talk) 20:34, 27 February 2012(UTC)
That'll be good Gwern. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I'm surprised that in Rebuild they haven't included the scenes where Shinji tried to kiss Asuka when she was sleeping next to him and also that famous scene where Asuka kisses Shinji for the first time. Perhaps we will in the next one.
By the way, the doujinshi "Evangelion: Re-Take" (which is set after "EoE" and is known to have been read by Asuka's original voice actress Yuko Miyamura) focuses mainly on Shinji and Asuka's relationship, and is a fantatsic read. I mentioned this in another post, but I would love to see this get an official release and/or animated. zictor23 ( talk) 22:15, 27 February 2012(UTC)
Among the other insert songs are "Komm, süsser Tod" (Come, Sweet Death), an upbeat song (which appears in the film at the beginning of Instrumentality), "THANATOS -If I Can't Be Yours", which is played in both the end credits and the credits to episode 25' (the song is based around "THANATOS", a background music piece used in the series) and "Dream On", a classic rock ballad performed by Aerosmith.
"Dream On", a classic rock ballad performed by Aerosmith. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.246.243.218 ( talk) 03:16, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Lucia Black ( talk) 20:01, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Regarding the scene where Shinji opens up to Asuka (presumably in his mind; it isn't clear if this was really happening), and then strangles her after she rejects both his feelings and his cries for help, there are soem different translations to what Shinji said to Asuka. I would be worth sharing this information with other Eva fans. In an official sub of the End of Evangelion, Shinji’s words are translated as “I want to help you, Asuka, and I want to stay with you,” while another English sub of the Japanese version ( http://eva-armageddon.com/Scripts/EOE2.html) translates Shinji’s words as “I want to help you, and I want to be with you forever.” Given the context of this scene, in which Shinji makes clear his feelings to Asuka, it is likely that both translations have the same meaning; that Shinji loved Asuka, and wanted to be in a relationship with her. A comparison can be made with the science-fiction anime Outlaw Star, in a scene in the final episode in which the main female protagonist Melfina reveals to the main male protagonist Gene Starwind that she loves him. When Gene asks her what her wish is, various English subs of the Japanese version translate her words as “I want to stay who I am. I want to stay with you Gene,” while the English dub (which, like the Evangelion dub, stays faithful to the original Japanese scripts) translates her words as “I want to stay who I am. I want to be with you forever Gene.” Despite the different words, the meaning is the same in both versions; that Melfina's wish was to be with Gene (whom she loves), and Gene returns Melfina's feelings by wishing for the same thing and then kissing her. zictor23 ( talk) 12:41, 11 February (UTC)
I didn’t think it was a trivial matter, in terms of the signficance of Shinji’s words to Asuka, which is why I thought it might be worth a mention, perhaps as a footnote. The way I understood that scene (which may or may not have taken place in Shinji’s mind) was that Shinji was opening up to Asuka about he felt for her, and although I could be wrong in saying this, its possible that the fansub (which translated Shnji’s words as “I want to help you somehow, and be with you forever”) might have conveyed more clearly the signficance of what Shinji was telling Asuka than both the dub and the official sub did (basically, that he is in love with Asuka, and wants to be with her). There is a discussion about this on forum.evageeks.org on a Page 2 of a topic entitled Dub Translation and Overall Presentation Issue, which goes into more detail about this. I had problems opening the page though, but another forum I came across ( http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=199964&page=7) also goes into a lot of detail about Shinji’s words to Asuka. Zictor23 ( talk) 10:32, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
Rather than continue this conversation in the edit summaries, I thought I'd better use the Talk page, since that's what it's for. This stuff isn't a big deal - I just want to discuss it because I'm a writer and find this stuff interesting. Anyway...
I gotta confess I am baffled by the objection to "Shinji is horrified to see the mass-produced units carrying the mutilated remains of Unit 02." I don't see what "to his horror" improves about it, and it means we then have to use a stronger verb to follow to get it to scan, as in the current wording: "To his horror, Shinji discovers the mass-produced units carrying the mutilated remains of Unit 02." This doesn't really work, because Shinji doesn't really discover the units. It's not like he was searching for them in a closet. The obvious verb here, to me, is see. What's wrong with it?
"Determined to have Shinji defend NERV, Misato brings Shinji to Unit 01's bay doors, but is mortally wounded in the process. Misato implores Shinji to pilot Unit 01, kisses him, and forces him into the elevator." It seems to me that it's important to say that she does all this does before she dies, as my edit did ("Before she dies..."). Misato's death is an important plot point, and without mentioning that she dies, we are only left with the information that she is "mortally wounded" - so when does she die?
So if we go with my version, we have to remove "mortally wounded", because then we say that she dies twice ("mortally wounded" + "before she dies"). We are therefore also obliged to say why she dies, because otherwise it's mysterious. "Determined to have Shinji defend NERV, Misato brings Shinji to Unit 01's bay doors, but is shot by soldiers. Before she dies, she implores Shinji to pilot Unit 01, kisses him, and forces him into the elevator."
Finally:
"giant cyborgs designed to fight hostile supernatural entities called angels". The construction "Called <something>" just doesn't sound encyclopaedic to me. To take a crude example, we wouldn't write, on Wikipedia, "Young cats, called kittens, are..." Apart from adding an unnecessary word, it would sound like we were writing for a young audience, sort of patronising. Instead we'd write "Kittens, young cats, are..." (or whatever). Do you see what I mean?
Sorry, that's all quite convoluted, but hopefully I made some sort of sense... Popcornduff ( talk) 15:48, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Please do not restore this information to the article without a citation.-- BirgitteSB 21:39, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
This movie is mentioned in the Semen page's Popular Culture section... Why? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.171.239.69 ( talk) 19:38, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
There has been edit warring on this page between Gwern ( talk · contribs) and Bread Ninja ( talk · contribs) over whether a multitude of translations of the last line spoken in The End of Evangelion should be included in the article. Back on Gwern's talk page I asked them: "How does the addition of multiple translations of the last words spoken in The End of Evangelion improve/worsen the encyclopedic quality of the article?" I'm still waiting for answers to that question. Good raise 12:51, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
Under the Interpretation section, after the section from the English actor for Asuka, there is several spots that are very confusing and seems to have been cut apart and never fixed.
Example: "Some state that, despite tBut, as we saw in the series finale, there are many worlds, many possible people that each individual person can be, and we choose and guide our lives towards different ends as time passes. I find it hard to reconcile the Shinji here, who dismisses Instrumentality, with the Shinji we saw in the series, who embraced it.he somber ending the results of Instrumentality are not permanent."
What is the first part of the sentence trying to say? (What does 'despite tBut' mean?) And the second part? Why is it referring to 'I' in the second sentence? Is that word at the beginning of the 3rd sentence supposed to be 'The'? Is this really the place to show how it should be interpreted unless it is the official released and verified interpretation? Maybe a new article on interpretation of Envangelion should be considered? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.79.36.81 ( talk • contribs) 16:02, July 1, 2011
Quotes aren't necessary in the refs if they provide links. ANd sorry for the link description it's supposed to say "Featured articles don't proved QUOTES" not links. WHy provide links to the information if we're merely going to quote them anyways? There's no point, and gwern you don't even properly cite refs. So why even remove the quotes? Bread Ninja ( talk) 05:03, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
Excerpts are merely additional. Usefulness to that extent is "optional". So I don't think they're useful to what the article "needs". Bread Ninja ( talk) 00:45, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
I was asked to share my personal opinion on this article, which is essentially the same as the one I expressed here. As I have mentioned in the past, almost all Neon Genesis Evangelion articles have a wide availability of reliable secondary sources to easily achieve featured-class status, so this article should be aiming to achieve that status. But I do not believe that having long quotes, either within the body text or in the citations, helps improving the quality of an article towards being a featured-class article because a collection of quotes goes against what Wikipedia is not (see WP:NOTDIR) and that is more appropriate for Wikiquote. In this specific article, it can be easily seen that the quotes constitute around 30% of the article text and, from my point of view, it seems that almost half the article is composed of quotes visually. As I mentioned before, even with all these quotes, which are used to improve the quality, the article does not pass the referencing and citation criteria of the assessment quality scale, which implies that the current quotes at least haven't improved the article in that aspect. I really have a hard time finding a featured-class article (not good-class or lower) which uses as many quotes as this one. I can say that at least that none of the WikiProject anime and manga featured articles ( Shojo Beat, Madlax, Tokyo Mew Mew and School Rumble) uses such long quotations in citations or in the body text and this also appears to be the case with featured film articles, which I mention since The End of Evangelion is a film, so I think that this is a strong indication that quotes are not needed to improve the quality of a film, anime or manga article and, therefore, they are not necessary for The End of Evangelion either. I share all views from WP:QUOTEFARM and I believe that using too many quotes is incompatible with the encyclopedic writing style. This concern about long quotes is also expressed in citation templates like {{ Cite book}} where it says about the quote parameter: Should not be excessive in length: More than a few sentences is rarely needed, and if needed then the Wikipedia article's prose should probably more adequately address the topic and/or quote the material directly, e.g. with {{ quote}}. From my point of view, The End of Evangelion article abuses of quotes in citations and I believe that the quality of the article would be improved if the number and length of quotes were reduced to from their current size and number. Jfgslo ( talk) 20:03, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
We're not getting anywhere up there, so let's try looking at one of the experts in dispute:
"By opening their hearts to one another Shinji and Asuka at last have a chance at happiness. Unfortunately the brutality of this scene obscures its tender meaning, and the Evangelion saga ends on a dour note despite reprising the positive message from its television conclusion." (Crandol, Mike. "Understanding Evangelion". Anime News Network. Retrieved August 29, 2011.)
From this the article makes "The meaning of the final line is obscure". For anyone who didn't notice: This claim is not supported by the source, which is referring to the meaning of the scene, not the final line. Something needs to be done here, because there's no point to including references that don't support any part of the article. Good raise 08:56, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Looking at another of the excerpts:
"But, as we saw in the series finale, there are many worlds, many possible people that each individual person can be, and we choose and guide our lives towards different ends as time passes. I find it hard to reconcile the Shinji here, who dismisses Instrumentality, with the Shinji we saw in the series, who embraced it....It’s impossible to choose a definitive conclusion because it’s all real, it all exists and it all tells us something about the essential being that is Shinji Ikari. Shinji chokes Asuka as they lie on a postapocalyptic beach. Why? I honestly don’t know for sure at this point." ( "Thoughts on Stuff - Neon Genesis Evangelion: The End of Evangelion". Patrick Meaney. Retrieved August 29, 2011.)
Like with the quote above, the article makes of this "The meaning of the final line is obscure". I may be missing some big piece of the puzzle here, but it seems to me that the quote does not support the claim. Anyone care to set me right? Good raise 03:49, 24 November 2011 (UTC) Seems a lil odd.....yeah, the line didn't exactly said obscure nor anything close to that. Removal of it might be best or reworking in another way more exact. Lucia Black ( talk) 04:17, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
This is over. Darth Sjones23 ( talk - contributions) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
If Jfgslo has never edited this article or its talk page before, why are you asking them to come and state their opinion here? Dream Focus
|
"In the sea of LCL, Shinji wished for a world with other people. He desired to meet them again, even if it meant he would be hurt and betrayed. And just as he had hoped / wanted, Asuka was present in the new world. Only Asuka was there beside him. The girl whom he had hurt, and who had been hurt by him. But even so, she was the one he had hoped/wished for...."
Is this quote supposed to illustrate that Shinji loves Asuka? I was just interested. He did, after all, say to Asuka that he wanted to be with her forever earlier on. zictor23 ( talk) 20:34, 27 February 2012(UTC)
That'll be good Gwern. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I'm surprised that in Rebuild they haven't included the scenes where Shinji tried to kiss Asuka when she was sleeping next to him and also that famous scene where Asuka kisses Shinji for the first time. Perhaps we will in the next one.
By the way, the doujinshi "Evangelion: Re-Take" (which is set after "EoE" and is known to have been read by Asuka's original voice actress Yuko Miyamura) focuses mainly on Shinji and Asuka's relationship, and is a fantatsic read. I mentioned this in another post, but I would love to see this get an official release and/or animated. zictor23 ( talk) 22:15, 27 February 2012(UTC)
Among the other insert songs are "Komm, süsser Tod" (Come, Sweet Death), an upbeat song (which appears in the film at the beginning of Instrumentality), "THANATOS -If I Can't Be Yours", which is played in both the end credits and the credits to episode 25' (the song is based around "THANATOS", a background music piece used in the series) and "Dream On", a classic rock ballad performed by Aerosmith.
"Dream On", a classic rock ballad performed by Aerosmith. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.246.243.218 ( talk) 03:16, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Lucia Black ( talk) 20:01, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Regarding the scene where Shinji opens up to Asuka (presumably in his mind; it isn't clear if this was really happening), and then strangles her after she rejects both his feelings and his cries for help, there are soem different translations to what Shinji said to Asuka. I would be worth sharing this information with other Eva fans. In an official sub of the End of Evangelion, Shinji’s words are translated as “I want to help you, Asuka, and I want to stay with you,” while another English sub of the Japanese version ( http://eva-armageddon.com/Scripts/EOE2.html) translates Shinji’s words as “I want to help you, and I want to be with you forever.” Given the context of this scene, in which Shinji makes clear his feelings to Asuka, it is likely that both translations have the same meaning; that Shinji loved Asuka, and wanted to be in a relationship with her. A comparison can be made with the science-fiction anime Outlaw Star, in a scene in the final episode in which the main female protagonist Melfina reveals to the main male protagonist Gene Starwind that she loves him. When Gene asks her what her wish is, various English subs of the Japanese version translate her words as “I want to stay who I am. I want to stay with you Gene,” while the English dub (which, like the Evangelion dub, stays faithful to the original Japanese scripts) translates her words as “I want to stay who I am. I want to be with you forever Gene.” Despite the different words, the meaning is the same in both versions; that Melfina's wish was to be with Gene (whom she loves), and Gene returns Melfina's feelings by wishing for the same thing and then kissing her. zictor23 ( talk) 12:41, 11 February (UTC)
I didn’t think it was a trivial matter, in terms of the signficance of Shinji’s words to Asuka, which is why I thought it might be worth a mention, perhaps as a footnote. The way I understood that scene (which may or may not have taken place in Shinji’s mind) was that Shinji was opening up to Asuka about he felt for her, and although I could be wrong in saying this, its possible that the fansub (which translated Shnji’s words as “I want to help you somehow, and be with you forever”) might have conveyed more clearly the signficance of what Shinji was telling Asuka than both the dub and the official sub did (basically, that he is in love with Asuka, and wants to be with her). There is a discussion about this on forum.evageeks.org on a Page 2 of a topic entitled Dub Translation and Overall Presentation Issue, which goes into more detail about this. I had problems opening the page though, but another forum I came across ( http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=199964&page=7) also goes into a lot of detail about Shinji’s words to Asuka. Zictor23 ( talk) 10:32, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
Rather than continue this conversation in the edit summaries, I thought I'd better use the Talk page, since that's what it's for. This stuff isn't a big deal - I just want to discuss it because I'm a writer and find this stuff interesting. Anyway...
I gotta confess I am baffled by the objection to "Shinji is horrified to see the mass-produced units carrying the mutilated remains of Unit 02." I don't see what "to his horror" improves about it, and it means we then have to use a stronger verb to follow to get it to scan, as in the current wording: "To his horror, Shinji discovers the mass-produced units carrying the mutilated remains of Unit 02." This doesn't really work, because Shinji doesn't really discover the units. It's not like he was searching for them in a closet. The obvious verb here, to me, is see. What's wrong with it?
"Determined to have Shinji defend NERV, Misato brings Shinji to Unit 01's bay doors, but is mortally wounded in the process. Misato implores Shinji to pilot Unit 01, kisses him, and forces him into the elevator." It seems to me that it's important to say that she does all this does before she dies, as my edit did ("Before she dies..."). Misato's death is an important plot point, and without mentioning that she dies, we are only left with the information that she is "mortally wounded" - so when does she die?
So if we go with my version, we have to remove "mortally wounded", because then we say that she dies twice ("mortally wounded" + "before she dies"). We are therefore also obliged to say why she dies, because otherwise it's mysterious. "Determined to have Shinji defend NERV, Misato brings Shinji to Unit 01's bay doors, but is shot by soldiers. Before she dies, she implores Shinji to pilot Unit 01, kisses him, and forces him into the elevator."
Finally:
"giant cyborgs designed to fight hostile supernatural entities called angels". The construction "Called <something>" just doesn't sound encyclopaedic to me. To take a crude example, we wouldn't write, on Wikipedia, "Young cats, called kittens, are..." Apart from adding an unnecessary word, it would sound like we were writing for a young audience, sort of patronising. Instead we'd write "Kittens, young cats, are..." (or whatever). Do you see what I mean?
Sorry, that's all quite convoluted, but hopefully I made some sort of sense... Popcornduff ( talk) 15:48, 29 July 2016 (UTC)